Gold Discussion for Investors and Market Analysts

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 23:58
Rack (Shlomo-Old Soldier-Grant) ID#402131:
Copyright © 1998 Rack/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Shlomo-if you must have a handgun get some training. Find one that feels good and take it home and load it with dummy ( not live ammo ) and sleep with it-eat with it and shoot it at the TV. A 380 is actually too light for serious social work. A 9mm is minimum.
Grant+Oris I would be willing to bet that your problems with .22 ammo is the use of lead bullets, they have a factory WAX lube that guns up an action-buy some copper plated hollow points after you give the guns a good cleaning.
Old Soldier-love your .45 choice. Agree that only way for a one shot stop guarantee is a grenade? Also your brain is best weapon

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 23:57
goldfevr (Monetary Collapse, Velocity, and Gold) ID#434108:
Copyright © 1998 goldfevr/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: an excerpt from an e-mail to a friend:

About the M-2 growth, & inflation....
your question is almost an indictment of me:
not from you,
but from my own soul. ... ( -why aren't I teaching, giving seminars... -
- ....on the desperate need for ....economic literacy.... - in our
nation/world.!! )

I've published several posts at kitco.com discussing velocity of
money.

Money's behavior is like a triangle:
#1. Prices/costs/purchasing-power/value of money ( -this often/best
considered as # 3. )

#2. Quantity of money

#3. Velocity of money

Without .... 'velocity' .... or turnover of money....
there can be - no inflation. ....
no matter how much quantity is produced, or how cheap credit gets...

If the universe of innately free individuals......
of market-places, nations & civilizations,
refuse to spend it, use it, borrow it, &/or invest it....

that is.....:: )

without ..... a sustained, and/or increasing ( -important ) .......
RATE - of turn-over.... in the use ... of money -- VELOCITY --
....
if velocity is falling,
no matter how-much clipped-coin-specie, currency, & cheap-credit,
floods the market-place....... of liberty-loving people... --
-- of - individuals, couples, families, communities,
and nations...

-- IF they/we refuse to use it/spend it/invest it....
then, ultimately,
prices must fall, and even, at times, snowball -- into deflationary
collapse.

If people's CONFIDENCE collapses...
collapsing as increasing millions wake-up to the reality & rip-off...of
artificially created paper currencies ....
and credits created out of thin-air....
no matter the subtle, engineered instruments & mechanisms of central
banks......
corrupted, the world over.

In such an economic world of collapsing currencies and
collapsing confidence........ -world-wide,

and thus,
the collapsing velocity or turn-over......in the use of money...

then, what follows suit is that:
national economic activity, regional exchange,
international trade & commmerce,
& local market-place markets.......
-- all -- of them -
shrink, contract, constrict....
and ultimately...... almost collapse.......as 'well' .

People would rather save ( -not use their money ) ,
when a rainy day is coming.
And when a terrifying economic winter approaches,
they prefer to save,
even more.

Self-preservation,
cannot be eradicated, nor long manipulated..
even by the most profligate central banks & governments.

The restoration of confidence, will sooner or later.....
be built on ..... the restored integrity of global money & credit,
by a return to humble, honest, proven ...... gold-based money & credit.

World leaders must become willing to come together....
to agree to and unite on....
the ( -perhaps politically unpopular, uncomfortable ) ...
CHOICE...... of defining & making gold-convertible.....

the world's currencies, and credit instruments.

Such courageous action by honest world-leaders, will -- by restoring the
world's national economies to gold-based money & credit --

save the world ......
from a deflationary collapse ...and an economic winter ....

which, if left un-checked,
would bring untold, unwarranted suffering to multitudes.....

rending the fabric of civilization
far into the new millennium.

Sincerely,
David ( Blair Macrory )
goldfever@k-online.com
essene@k-online.com

P.S.
my 9/27/97 'net post' :
When the tent collapses
it will not be the center-post that goes first;
but the side-posts,
and even the stakes. ..

P.S.S.
To restore confidence,
national & world leaders willl have to restore, return to .....
.. ( -- embrace & educate themselves and their peoples -- ) ....
to the real-money & sound-credit foundation of gold-based-money....
it's integrity and accountability.
Gold is the only definable, enduring ...
unit of exchange and store of value ,
that everyone, everywhere in the world,
is willing to trust and use.

To restore confidence, currencies and credit, the world over....
the peoples & powers that be,
in this time -- within eternity's lessons --
must, and eventually will....
return to, and embrace
gold-based money & credit.

Only gold.....
will survive, as the common denominator .....
and lifeboat,
and deliverer.....
from the impending
global economic titanic.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 23:49
Gollum (@sharefin ) ID#43349:: Yes sir. We were contracturally obligated to be compliant both in the bios and the real time clock. We ran the tests not only on the new machines which all passed, but also some of the older ones for which there was no obligation. New ones passed, some of the old ones did too.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 23:47
Goldilocks__A (Sharefin's Y2K tests) ID#377196:: Just to let you know I'd take the test if I needed to, but being a Macintosh user, I'm safe as can be as far as basic Macintosh software is concerned. My calendar program Datebook Pro is Ok too - I tested it out. Unfortunately my Dbase program CAT IV is not OK - it simpy won't accept dates above 1999, so in the next year or so I have to find another Dbase program and figure out how to transfer all the data into it - woe.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 23:45
Marshall (Impeachment of Clinton?) ID#293211:: NO Question that an admission of making false statements to government officials and interfering with the FBI is an impeachable offense.
Bill Clinton, ARKANSAS GAZETTE, AUGUST 8TH 1974, PAGE 7-a.

PS. After the planned destruction of America arrives and you are still alive and well, never sleep in your quarters at night, prepare your hidden rootcellar/fallback bunker for your night sleep its the only place you will get safe sound sleep.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 23:44
ERLE (El Borak,) ID#190411:: Is everything that you copyright for real?
Sir, with all of your manufactures, you must be one wealthy dude.
Lecher-B-Gone, LOLROTF. Please continue.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 23:40
Grizz (Old Soldier - what you say rings true) ID#434298:: I never could reconcile my physics education about equal and opposite reactions to the Hollywood scenes of gunshot victims being lifted off their feet an tossed a meter or so.

I also feel that the recovery time required to re-aim a 45 or 44
would be a big disadvantage if followup rounds were needed fast.
Nevertheless, I plead guilty to owning a long-barreled 44 magnum,
for hunting Grizzlies };- )

P.S. Is Kitcomm slow tonight or is it just me, my ISP or the Net?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 23:40
HighRise (sharefin) ID#401237:: Microsoft is still producing software that is not Yr 2K compliant.

HighRise

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 23:32
Old Soldier (Y2K safe distances, shotguns for beginers, knock down myth,) ID#185274:
Copyright © 1998 Old Soldier/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Shlomo 21:19 Distance is not as important as other factors. Be well of the beaten path of those departing the cities. Be on defensible terrain among good people who will work with and help you. Under no circumstance should a complete novice like yourself get a handgun. Stick with the 20ga pump shotgun recommendation until you are ready to spend time effort and money learning marksmanship.

Steve in TO 21:26 As has already been said by Grant, knockdown is simply Hollywood and novel BS. Try it yourself. Set a 20-50 pound log on end and shoot it with anything you like. At best, it will merely fall over. Shooting it with a .375 H&H magnum or .458 mag ( elephant capable calibers ) will not knock it anywhere. Certainly they will not knock a much heavier man anywhere. When you shoot a man even with a heavy caliber, he almost always fall toward you. This is because of the natural doubling up on severe impact reflex. Still skeptical? Check actual combat footage from WWII. Notice soldiers struck fall forward?

Gollum 21:29 True that experience with the Morros in the Philippines caused the Army to go from .38 to .45 but as above, not because it knocked anyone down. .45 does have much more stopping power than .38.

Grant 21:41 I guess I don�t know where you and Oris are storing your .22 ammo that is so damp. I have stored it in high humidity in Florida for years with no problem. I have fired old corroded ammo with no problem. I still think you two have gun problems.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 23:09
sharefin (Email chatter) ID#284255:: So here is some interesting TA points.
( 1 ) DJ-30 has a monthly channel from 1987 to present.
( 2 ) DJ-30 also has a monthly channel from Oct 1994 to the present.
( 3 ) DJ-30 is right on the bottom of this Oct 1994 channel.
( 4 ) This is either a great buying time or the DJ-30 is about to fall fall fall ?
( 5 ) Also Federal Reverse studies show that Bull markets are very powerful when inflation is very low.
( 6 ) During very low inflation a Bull Market can end without the a rise in interest rates.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:52
sharefin (Y2k tests - RTC's - any other results? Who has tested.) ID#284255:
Copyright © 1998 sharefin/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Gollum
I' m not trying to bug you, but just to see if you 'personally' have run this specific test.
And specifically for RTC compliance?
http://www.zdnet.com/vlabs/y2k/testy2k.html>http://www.zdnet.com/vlabs/y2k/testy2k.html
Compaq are still producing PC's with non compliant RTC's.
They just lost a court case over this.
How many others are doing the same.

You can do this test online now in about 2 minutes.
Give it a go it's easy as.
Prove it for yourself and don't go off hearsay.

Results so far:
So far from people who have actually responded that they have run this test.
Reify , Kuston, Crossbow, Speed, Flash, Sharefin.
All have failed this specific test on RTC's.

WHO ELSE IS GOING TO TEST AND RESPOND WITH THEIR RESULTS TO KITCO?

Do we have anyone who can pass this test on RTC compliance?
http://www.zdnet.com/vlabs/y2k/testy2k.html

For those who wonder what to expect - TIME WARPING
Read up on the Crouch, Echlin effect.
http://www.intranet.ca/~mike.echlin/bestif/index.htm

Also article no 16
http://boards.pathfinder.com/cgi-bin/webx?14@^481388@.ee881f9/8>http://boards.pathfinder.com/cgi-bin/webx?14@^481388@.ee881f9/8

Also
Prove It test shows most PCs unlikely to pass Y2K analysis
http://www.idg.co.nz/nzweb/aa02.html

***********Come on all you Kitcoites******************
----Do the test----

Realise the implications if up to 90% of all PC's have this time dilation problem.

Domino effect.

Got your gold yet?
Checked your PC yet?

Get gold, guns and grub.
And out of the big cities.

Old Soldier
No complaints about your scenarios at all.
I, like you, am highly concerned about Y2k.
And can envisionage your thought quite clearly.

Fortunately I live outside the US and large cities.
And in an area where there will be low impact.
( compared to other places )

Thank you for your comments.
I hope others read them and take the time to think them through.
And to act accordingly.

It is pointless to deny that Y2k will have any impact.
And anyone who does so has their head in the sand.
And has not done their homework.
YET.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:38
Boardreader (RE: Another view!) ID#20767:
Copyright © 1998 Boardreader/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: This analysis was written before the cruise missile attacks:

Behind the Bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Kenya

What will happen, if . . . ?

by Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.

August 14, 1998

On the surface, the evidence points to the recent bombing attack at the U.S. Embassy in Kenya's capital, as being an expression of London's, and also Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu's rage, against what they regard as the U.S. government's interference with London's ongoing, continent-wide stage-managing of mercenary armies' deployments in Africa raw-materials grabs. .......... [including gold!]

http://www.larouchepub.com/lar_kenya_bombing_2534.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:35
TYoung (vronsky...not even that...it is more in the nature of reap and sow...) ID#177105:: Tom

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:30
El Borak__A (Bingo - Clinton birth name) ID#226299:: was William Jefferson Blythe

Copyright 1998 El Borak, inc. Makers of oil lamps, horshradish pies, and the Macarena Al ( tm ) dancing doll. Some dissembly required.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:29
John B__A (All) ID#77134:: Is anyone aware of what APH's latest trading strategy is or when his last posting was? Thanks,

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:28
tolerant1 (for Fred and the Lady, Namaste') ID#373284:: LOVE...LOVE...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:28
6pak () ID#335190:
Copyright © 1998 6pak/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: August 23, 1998

Mexico ruling party has own debt plan proposal

MEXICO CITY ( Reuters ) - Mexico's ruling party came up with a proposal Sunday to end a deadlock over the $57 billion cleanup bill from the 1995 peso crisis, hoping to build bridges with the opposition by insisting crooked bankers and solvent billionaires pay off their debts.

President Ernesto Zedillo's Institutional Revolutionary Party ( PRI ) agreed to a plan it said it hoped would open the way to a lasting solution, with direction and sense of progress, allowing the costly albatross to be turned into public debt.

In the face of the external ( financial ) risks, we must not prolong the debate unnecessarily. We must take decisions, with seriousness and transparency, with responsibility and dignity, the PRI said in a statement.

The stalemate has exacerbated turmoil in local markets, which have been battered by ill financial winds from Asia and Russia.

Mexican bank shares have lost about 40 percent of their value so far this year as investors fled to safer shores.

The PRI demands that the law and the full force of the state are brought to bear on those who abused, be they officials, bankers or debtors. They must pay back what they have illegally or illegitimately obtained, the party said.
http://www.freecartoons.com/ReutersNews/MEXICO-BANKERS.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:25
Steve in TO__A (Gollum, AuH2O, Grant . . . ) ID#209265:
Copyright © 1998 Steve in TO__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Thank you for the thoughts on stopping power. Old Soldier's comments about the damage a hollow-point bullet can do are important, I think. I can see why the Geneva convention banned them.

I remembered an article on the physician who operated on the singer Selena Quintanilla after she was shot in the right back by a hollow-point .38 bullet and looked it up:

http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/metropolitan/95/10/19/selena.html

She would probably have survived if the bullet had been a regular, non-expanding bullet, but the hollow point destroyed almost the whole right side of her chest.

I find it scary that many police forces in the Southern US states still insist on using hollow-point bullets.

Does anybody remember the Day of the Jackal book? The one in which he drills into a bullet and adds mercury? Does anybody know if this works, or if it's been tested?

- Steve

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:25
Envy (US Markets) ID#219363:: Anyone care to make an early prediction for tomorrow ?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:23
DEJ (Clinton's real birth name.) ID#270235:: Must be Snopes. The Arkansas branch rather than the Mississippi
branch.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:20
Bingo (Will someone who knows....) ID#263254:: please post Clinton's real birth name, as it is NOT Clinton, but
another name.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:15
vronsky (a new wrinkle - should be ) ID#427357:

Seems to power to be requires more work to obtain information.

http://www.golden-eagle.com/quotex/goldcorner.html

you must delete the en and make change quotex to quotes

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:14
OLD GOLD (Clinton and Israel) ID#242325:
Copyright © 1998 OLD GOLD/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: MICK: Given the overwhelmingly pro-Israel mass media, don't you think an opposing viepoint is needed on occasion?

London Observer - 8/23

MER - Washington - 23 August:
Think back to all those misrepresentations and distortions by the
Clinton Administration about Iraq earlier this year when official
Washington was eager to justify more bombing of Iraq ( which still may
lie ahead ) . The Clinton Administration, more than its predecessors,
prevaricates and misleads about world affairs much as Clinton does
about his personal life.
Furthermore, with so many high-ranking American Jews with close
connections to Israel at the highest levels of power in this American
government, it's only fair to point out that the adoption by
Washington of both Israeli styles and policies is not accidental.
After decades of working, infiltrating, and intimidating the American
political system and media, Israel's influence over the U.S. when it
comes to matters involving the Middle East is tremendous.
Additionally, it also comes as no accident that the Assistant
Secretary of State for the Middle East has been so publicly quiet and
out of sight of late -- Mr. Martin Indyk. Could this be because
there's some anxiety that his former Israeli intelligence background,
his being brought to Washington in the mid-1980s by the Israeli/Jewish
lobby to head up their think-tank, his tasking to Clinton's Little
Rock headquarters during the 1992 campaign, and his rushed through
U.S. citizenship soon after Clinton was first elected so he could be
appointed to the National Security Council, are all matters too
sensitive for the moment?
This coming week Sudan will demand of the Arab League and of the
United Nations intervention in what has been done by the U.S. In view
of what is coming out, including in this important London Observer
article, the Americans should indeed be held accountable. But if the
U.N. failed so miserably to even stand up for its own after the Qana
massacre -- and of course we all know the Arab League is little but
a meeting hall these days -- its not very likely either of these
institutions is going to do anything significant. We'll soon see!

=============================================================

CLINTON KNEW TARGET WAS CIVILIAN

American tests showed no trace of nerve gas
at 'deadly' Sudan plant. The President ordered
the attack anyway. By Ed Vulliamy in Washington,
Henry McDonald in Belfast, and Shyam Bhatia and
Martin Bright in the LONDON OBSERVER.

Sunday August 23, 1998:
President Bill Clinton knew he was bombing a civilian target when
he ordered the United States attack on a Sudan chemical plant. Tests
ordered by him showed that no nerve gas was on the site and two
British professionals who recently worked at the factory said it
clearly had no military purpose.
The disclosure will deepen the crisis, following the American
attacks on Afghanistan and Sudan, in relations between the US and its
Muslim allies, who have called upon Clinton to produce hard evidence
that the attacks had a legitimate relevance to the war against
international terrorism.
The US claims that the Al-Shifa Pharmaceuticals Industries plant in
North Khartoum was producing the ingredients for the deadly VX nerve
gas. But Sudan's assertion that it produced 50 per cent of the
country's drug requirements is much closer to the truth.
Several vital pieces of evidence point to this conclusion. US
forces flew a reconnaissance mission to test for traces of gas and
reported that there were none. Nevertheless Clinton immediately
authorised the attack. He was also told that the absence of gas would
avoid the horrifying spectacle of civilian casualties. Sudan has said
10 people were injured, five seriously.
Belfast independent film-maker Irwin Armstrong, who visited the
plant last year while making a promotional video for the Sudanese
ambassador in London, said: The Americans have got this completely
wrong.
In other parts of the country I encountered heavy security but not
here. I was allowed to wander about quite freely. This is a perfectly
normal chemical factory with the things you would expect - stainless
steel vats and technicians.
Tom Carnaffin, of Hexham, Northumberland, worked as a technical
manager from 1992 to 1996 for the Baaboud family, who own the plant.
I have intimate knowledge of that factory and it just does not
lend itself to the manufacture of chemical weapons, he said.
The Americans claimed that the weapons were being manufactured in
the veterinary part of the factory. I have intimate knowledge of that
part of the [plant] and unless there have been some radical changes in
the last few months, it just isn't equipped to cope with the demands
of chemical weapon manufacturing.
You need things like airlocks but this factory just has doors
leading out onto the street. The factory was in the process of being
sold to a Saudi Arabian. They are allies of the Americans and I don't
think it would look very good in the prospectus that the factory was
also manufacturing weapons for Baghdad.
I have personal knowledge of the need for medicine in Sudan as I
almost died while working out there. The loss of this factory is a
tragedy for the rural communities who need those medicines.
The engineer, who has said he will be returning to Sudan in the
near future to carry out more work for the Baaboud family, condemned
the American attack and its resulting loss of life.
It's a funny feeling to think that I had a cup of tea in that
place and the security guard on the gate who used to say hello to me
is very probably now dead. The Baabouds are absolutely gutted about
this. People who they knew personally have been killed - it is very
upsetting.
Meanwhile, an assurance that British targets will not be included
in any retaliatory strikes has come from sources close to Osama bin
Laden, the multimillionaire Saudi fundamentalist believed to be behind
the twin bombings of US embassies in East Africa.
Bin Laden, who survived the American air-strikes on his training
camp inside Afghanistan, telephoned the editor of the London-based
Arabic daily newspaper al Quds al Arabi to declare he was only
interested in hitting the US and Israel.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:14
OLD GOLD (Clinton and Israel) ID#242325:
Copyright © 1998 OLD GOLD/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: MICK: Given the overwhelmingly pro-Israel mass media, don't you think an opposing viepoint is needed on occasion?

London Observer - 8/23

MER - Washington - 23 August:
Think back to all those misrepresentations and distortions by the
Clinton Administration about Iraq earlier this year when official
Washington was eager to justify more bombing of Iraq ( which still may
lie ahead ) . The Clinton Administration, more than its predecessors,
prevaricates and misleads about world affairs much as Clinton does
about his personal life.
Furthermore, with so many high-ranking American Jews with close
connections to Israel at the highest levels of power in this American
government, it's only fair to point out that the adoption by
Washington of both Israeli styles and policies is not accidental.
After decades of working, infiltrating, and intimidating the American
political system and media, Israel's influence over the U.S. when it
comes to matters involving the Middle East is tremendous.
Additionally, it also comes as no accident that the Assistant
Secretary of State for the Middle East has been so publicly quiet and
out of sight of late -- Mr. Martin Indyk. Could this be because
there's some anxiety that his former Israeli intelligence background,
his being brought to Washington in the mid-1980s by the Israeli/Jewish
lobby to head up their think-tank, his tasking to Clinton's Little
Rock headquarters during the 1992 campaign, and his rushed through
U.S. citizenship soon after Clinton was first elected so he could be
appointed to the National Security Council, are all matters too
sensitive for the moment?
This coming week Sudan will demand of the Arab League and of the
United Nations intervention in what has been done by the U.S. In view
of what is coming out, including in this important London Observer
article, the Americans should indeed be held accountable. But if the
U.N. failed so miserably to even stand up for its own after the Qana
massacre -- and of course we all know the Arab League is little but
a meeting hall these days -- its not very likely either of these
institutions is going to do anything significant. We'll soon see!

=============================================================

CLINTON KNEW TARGET WAS CIVILIAN

American tests showed no trace of nerve gas
at 'deadly' Sudan plant. The President ordered
the attack anyway. By Ed Vulliamy in Washington,
Henry McDonald in Belfast, and Shyam Bhatia and
Martin Bright in the LONDON OBSERVER.

Sunday August 23, 1998:
President Bill Clinton knew he was bombing a civilian target when
he ordered the United States attack on a Sudan chemical plant. Tests
ordered by him showed that no nerve gas was on the site and two
British professionals who recently worked at the factory said it
clearly had no military purpose.
The disclosure will deepen the crisis, following the American
attacks on Afghanistan and Sudan, in relations between the US and its
Muslim allies, who have called upon Clinton to produce hard evidence
that the attacks had a legitimate relevance to the war against
international terrorism.
The US claims that the Al-Shifa Pharmaceuticals Industries plant in
North Khartoum was producing the ingredients for the deadly VX nerve
gas. But Sudan's assertion that it produced 50 per cent of the
country's drug requirements is much closer to the truth.
Several vital pieces of evidence point to this conclusion. US
forces flew a reconnaissance mission to test for traces of gas and
reported that there were none. Nevertheless Clinton immediately
authorised the attack. He was also told that the absence of gas would
avoid the horrifying spectacle of civilian casualties. Sudan has said
10 people were injured, five seriously.
Belfast independent film-maker Irwin Armstrong, who visited the
plant last year while making a promotional video for the Sudanese
ambassador in London, said: The Americans have got this completely
wrong.
In other parts of the country I encountered heavy security but not
here. I was allowed to wander about quite freely. This is a perfectly
normal chemical factory with the things you would expect - stainless
steel vats and technicians.
Tom Carnaffin, of Hexham, Northumberland, worked as a technical
manager from 1992 to 1996 for the Baaboud family, who own the plant.
I have intimate knowledge of that factory and it just does not
lend itself to the manufacture of chemical weapons, he said.
The Americans claimed that the weapons were being manufactured in
the veterinary part of the factory. I have intimate knowledge of that
part of the [plant] and unless there have been some radical changes in
the last few months, it just isn't equipped to cope with the demands
of chemical weapon manufacturing.
You need things like airlocks but this factory just has doors
leading out onto the street. The factory was in the process of being
sold to a Saudi Arabian. They are allies of the Americans and I don't
think it would look very good in the prospectus that the factory was
also manufacturing weapons for Baghdad.
I have personal knowledge of the need for medicine in Sudan as I
almost died while working out there. The loss of this factory is a
tragedy for the rural communities who need those medicines.
The engineer, who has said he will be returning to Sudan in the
near future to carry out more work for the Baaboud family, condemned
the American attack and its resulting loss of life.
It's a funny feeling to think that I had a cup of tea in that
place and the security guard on the gate who used to say hello to me
is very probably now dead. The Baabouds are absolutely gutted about
this. People who they knew personally have been killed - it is very
upsetting.
Meanwhile, an assurance that British targets will not be included
in any retaliatory strikes has come from sources close to Osama bin
Laden, the multimillionaire Saudi fundamentalist believed to be behind
the twin bombings of US embassies in East Africa.
Bin Laden, who survived the American air-strikes on his training
camp inside Afghanistan, telephoned the editor of the London-based
Arabic daily newspaper al Quds al Arabi to declare he was only
interested in hitting the US and Israel.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:09
Envy (@Shlomo) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

I don't really enjoy having a gun around, but something inside has always told me it's better to have one in the house than not. My previous girlfriend before this one really liked my .380, I can't remember what kind of gun it is, something Russian, Makarov or something. Anyway, it's a good gun, easy to shoot, takes about 2 seconds to dis-assemble which makes it easy to clean, etc. I like it for the house because you can put it away somewhere, unlike a shotgun or something else big like that. The ammo is cheap and you can get it anywhere.

Just remember, don't ever threaten anyone with it. They shouldn't know you even have a gun unless you've already shot them with it.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:08
vronsky (GOLD RISING FAST IN TOKYO) ID#427357:: GOLD up Yen15/gram to Yen1,322 per gram. Nippons dumping stocks and fleeing to gold. See Tokyo Gold Futures prices at 23-Hour Gold Corner URL - it's necessary to delete the extra letters en in the word golden before posting the URL to the Internet - once there CLICK the TOKYO GOLD gold coin:

http://www.golden-eagle.com/quotex/goldcorner.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:07
tolerant1 (goldfevr,Namaste' and a gulp to ya from the Island that is Long, to even dream) ID#373284:: that your iris glistened against the evening sky, we appreciate the thought�a hug for me Mumm from you, an evening of rapture for you and yours..truly�for us a privilege...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:04
mozel (@What We Are Grown Accustomed To) ID#153102:: To lay with one hand the power of the government on the property of the citizen and with the other to bestow upon favored individuals, to aid private enterprises and build up private fortunes is none the less a robbery because it is done under the forms of law and is called taxation. ( Savings and Loan Association v. Topeka, 20 Wall. 655, ( 1875 ) U.S.Supreme Court.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:04
grant (Schlomo, a long barreled shotgun is very difficult to shoot yourself with) ID#432221:: and is THE BEST for home defense. Look into 20 guage pumps.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:03
goldfevr (Russia - the world's achille's heel) ID#434108:
Copyright © 1998 goldfevr/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Credit goes to Steve Perth, for this early July post of interview w/ controversial 'EIR. Beware of throwing out the baby - the truth...
with the bath-water...- the source - perhaps - EIR.

It is for each of us, to sift the wheat from the chaff...
all around us, as well as
with in us.

Russia's turmoil will be the straw ...
that break's
western civilization's back,
in my opinion:

Date: Fri Jul 10 1998 20:48
Steve - Perth__A ( More on Russia & Thailand ( apologies for source bias ) ) ID#284170:
Copyright � 1998 Steve - Perth__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
- SOME SIGNS OF SANITY IN THE MIDST OF A GLOBAL CRISIS -

July 9, 1998

Interviewer: Tony Papert Guest: Nancy Spannaus

TONY PAPERT: Welcome to EIR Talks. This is Tony Papert, it's July 9, 1998, and with
me in the studio is Nancy Spannaus, the editor of New Federalist, and a board member of
EIR magazine. Hi, Nancy.

NANCY SPANNAUS: Hi.

EIR: Nancy, the so-called Asia economic crisis began almost exactly one year ago. Over
that year, and even before, Lyndon LaRouche and EIR were saying that it was simply the
opening phase of a world systemic breakdown crisis, unless certain measures were taken.
During the same period, our American television and media have said nothing of the sort,
haven't even breathed a whisper of it, until the past several weeks, when there's been a
change. Could you tell us about that?

NANCY SPANNAUS: Sure. What happened is that about the middle of June, the U.S.
media and some leading spokesmen in the financial establishment of the United States, or the
publicist layer of the financial establishment, began to come out and say the kind of things that
were previously only being said in the European press, or the Indonesian press, or the
Chinese press, about the actual danger of the Asian, so-called Asian financial crisis imploding
the entire world. This has been the case since the break that occurred back in October of
1997; it's been well recognized as such all over the financial establishment. There've been
non-stop bankers' meetings, starting in December of last year, but very little has actually
trickled out to the U.S. public.

And people here have just been fed with delusion that the stock market boom's going to go
on forever, higher and higher; they should take out money on their credit cards to bet more
on the market. They should vanquish their pensions in order to do that, and so forth and so
on. So it's been insane, and people like Greenspan, and others, have been trying to manage
everything, even though it's inherently unmanagable, without a New Bretton Woods
approach, which Mr. LaRouche has been pushing, and we at EIR and in the LaRouche
movement have been agitating about.

So, starting in the middle of June, however, when the Asia crisis had hit a second phase, and
it was beginning to move heavily into the Russia and Brazil situations -- as LaRouche had
projected -- we began to see some signs of sanity. And I think there are some interesting
things that should be brought to our listeners' attention.

For example, at an Economic Strategy Institute conference in Washington on June 29, Clyde
Prestowitz, who's known for Japan-bashing -- he's an economic guru -- actually made some
very cogent statements about the crisis.

[excerpts from Prestowitz on Asia crisis being a world crisis, and the need for Japan to
suspend the Big Bang.]

He's not the only one. Before that, there was Roger Altman, who was a Treasury official in
the Clinton administration, and a very well-connected investment banker, close to the Rubin
circles, and so forth. And he wrote an oped in the International Herald Tribune and the L.A.
Times, which actually said, ``Those who think that the mighty United States is immune to
such forces of financial collapse, are wrong. This is a dangerous moment.''

This kind of thing has not been said to the American people, and, of course, this wasn't said
officially, but it was put out.

And then you've had even someone from the Federal Reserve bureaucracy, out there in
Minneapolis, and those of our viewers who actually subscribe to EIR will have seen an
interview by a Mr. Rolnick, which also details the fact that we're in a serious, systemic
financial crisis.

EIR: Thank you very much.....

[Commercial break]

- Russia is the Epicenter of the Crisis -

EIR: Welcome back to EIR Talks. This is Tony Papert, and with me is New Federalist
editor Nancy Spannaus.

Nancy, within the past few days, Russia has become at least the public center of attention in
this economic crash, with imminent fears of government default, and actual turmoil and chaos
in Russia. What's going on there?

NANCY SPANNAUS: Russia is the epicenter of the world systemic crisis right now, and
obviously, the second largest nuclear power on this planet going into a total breakdown --
which is what is threatened, not just a financial breakdown, but a social breakdown,
potentially, military action, potentially, changes in government, or just total chaos could be
breaking there.

The path Russia has been on under the IMF, from 1990 forward, has been way up on the
stock markets, and way down in living standards and production. And now, the bubble part
of it -- the stock market part -- has begun to collapse because of the hot money-flows out of
Asia, looking for places that might be safe. It's a futile effort, but that's what's actually
happening. So what was very hot last fall, is in total collapse right now.

The IMF is in there, desperate to try to save the situation. But the measures that they're
proposing to save the situation -- measures which unfortunately have been adopted by the
Yeltsin government, and Kiriyenko and forth -- are actually the measures which created the
crisis in the first place. Increased tax collection, which is impossible under conditions where
factories are shutting down, and people have no wages. And, selling off vast sections of the
Russian wealth, particularly in the oil companies, the gas companies, looting the place totally
insanely.

So, it's a very serious situation. The latest is that the IMF has promised $10 to $15 billion...

EIR: Which they don't have.

NANCY SPANNAUS: ...to Russia. They don't have it. Russia owes, has to refinance at
least $1 billion a week. So, if you look, here we are. What are we in? We're in the middle of
1998. If they were to get $15 billion, it would last them ... 15 weeks! Right? And the IMF
doesn't even have, and the U.S. Congress has not passed an increased appropriation to this
bill, and quite likely will not. And everybody is hanging on tenterhooks.

Particularly Europe, because about $75 billion is at stake from European banks having lent
into Russia. But, of course, this is the Eurasian landmass, this is a major geopolitical center in
the world, and when it blows, it will have impact on absolutely everybody in that area.

So, it's a very dangerous situation. The good news is that there are signs of an emerging
alternate leadership to the International Monetary Fund and Yeltsin there. Yeltsin forces and
those behind him are aware of it. I think that's what's behind the mysterious murder of a
leading retired military man, Lev Rokhlin, that happened on July 3. This was a very
suspicious story to all Russians. Because it seemed as though the police knew who confessed
before they could have investigated more than one whit! They claimed that the man's wife
shot him at 4 in the morning. There was no evidence to that effect. In fact, the man's daughter
said the wife was forced to confess. So, this is a man who had threatened to lead the military
in political strikes -- not a coup -- but political activity to topple Yeltsin, because of the
hideous conditions of military men and former military men, under the conditions of IMF
austerity.

So, that's happening. There are strikes, particularly among the coal mining, the strategic
coal-mining sector. This is an area where the coal miners have cut off the Trans-Siberian
Railroad for a number of days -- they had done it a number of months back -- they are doing
it again. They've been joined by teachers, by doctors, by defense workers in Moscow,
they're occupying Red Square. And this is a situation which could blow in any number of
ways, and obviously, the Clinton administration, anybody who's thinking in world financial
circles, is desperate to cover it over. Clinton has promised to go there -- that was probably a
confidence-building measure in a certain sense. Yet, unless people honestly say, as some of
the opposition is, in Russia, that this is a systemic crisis, that we have to go back to
production, that we have to clamp down on speculation, that we need great projects, then
this is going to devolve. And you can rapidly see Russia becoming like Albania, becoming
like Africa in terms of civilizational collapse, and that having a spillover effect on a global
scale.

EIR: Or Albania with nuclear weapons, as Helga LaRouche has said.

NANCY SPANNAUS: Yes, Albania with nuclear weapons. It's a very frightening thought,
to see what this could mean for the world's future.

[Commercial break]

EIR: Welcome back to EIR Talks. This is Tony Papert, and with us is Nancy Spannaus, the
editor of New Federalist newspaper. We were talking about the world economic crisis, also
called the Asia economic crisis. Nancy, in the location where this crisis first broke in July of
1997, in Thailand, there have been recent quite striking developments. Could you tell us
about them?

- Kra Canal on the Table Again in Thailand -

NANCY SPANNAUS: Yes. I'm particularly impressed by the fact that the approach of the
Thais is not just an anti-IMF approach. That is also very important. The Thais have a strong
anti-colonial tradition, and over the past six months, in particular, increasingly people have
begun to mobilize -- all the way up to the King, in effect -- to say, IMF austerity, increased
taxes, increased prices for imports and so forth, these things are killing us, and we need to
free ourselves of what's effectively IMF colonialism. They formed a grouping called the Free
Thai movement, in effect.

But just at the beginning of July, we got a report in the English-language major newspaper in
Bangkok, called The Nation, that there had been an additional element added to the
mobilization of the Thais, which was a conference of academics, which discussed
re-instituting the Kra Canal project.

Now, probably there aren't a lot of our listeners who remember the Kra Canal, but Mr.
LaRouche and our movement first began talking about this back in 1983 -- at least then,
maybe before -- as one of the several major infrastructure projects in the Asia-Pacific Basin,
that was required in order to turn this area into a developed, developing section of the world
economy, to improve transportation lines, and transportation eff

Date: Fri Jul 10 1998 20:48
Steve - Perth__A ( More on Russia & Thailand ( apologies for source bias ) ) ID#284170:
Copyright � 1998 Steve - Perth__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
- SOME SIGNS OF SANITY IN THE MIDST OF A GLOBAL CRISIS -

July 9, 1998

Interviewer: Tony Papert Guest: Nancy Spannaus

TONY PAPERT: Welcome to EIR Talks. This is Tony Papert, it's July 9, 1998, and with
me in the studio is Nancy Spannaus, the editor of New Federalist, and a board member of
EIR magazine. Hi, Nancy.

NANCY SPANNAUS: Hi.

EIR: Nancy, the so-called Asia economic crisis began almost exactly one year ago. Over
that year, and even before, Lyndon LaRouche and EIR were saying that it was simply the
opening phase of a world systemic breakdown crisis, unless certain measures were taken.
During the same period, our American television and media have said nothing of the sort,
haven't even breathed a whisper of it, until the past several weeks, when there's been a
change. Could you tell us about that?

NANCY SPANNAUS: Sure. What happened is that about the middle of June, the U.S.
media and some leading spokesmen in the financial establishment of the United States, or the
publicist layer of the financial establishment, began to come out and say the kind of things that
were previously only being said in the European press, or the Indonesian press, or the
Chinese press, about the actual danger of the Asian, so-called Asian financial crisis imploding
the entire world. This has been the case since the break that occurred back in October of
1997; it's been well recognized as such all over the financial establishment. There've been
non-stop bankers' meetings, starting in December of last year, but very little has actually
trickled out to the U.S. public.

And people here have just been fed with delusion that the stock market boom's going to go
on forever, higher and higher; they should take out money on their credit cards to bet more
on the market. They should vanquish their pensions in order to do that, and so forth and so
on. So it's been insane, and people like Greenspan, and others, have been trying to manage
everything, even though it's inherently unmanagable, without a New Bretton Woods
approach, which Mr. LaRouche has been pushing, and we at EIR and in the LaRouche
movement have been agitating about.

So, starting in the middle of June, however, when the Asia crisis had hit a second phase, and
it was beginning to move heavily into the Russia and Brazil situations -- as LaRouche had
projected -- we began to see some signs of sanity. And I think there are some interesting
things that should be brought to our listeners' attention.

For example, at an Economic Strategy Institute conference in Washington on June 29, Clyde
Prestowitz, who's known for Japan-bashing -- he's an economic guru -- actually made some
very cogent statements about the crisis.

[excerpts from Prestowitz on Asia crisis being a world crisis, and the need for Japan to
suspend the Big Bang.]

He's not the only one. Before that, there was Roger Altman, who was a Treasury official in
the Clinton administration, and a very well-connected investment banker, close to the Rubin
circles, and so forth. And he wrote an oped in the International Herald Tribune and the L.A.
Times, which actually said, ``Those who think that the mighty United States is immune to
such forces of financial collapse, are wrong. This is a dangerous moment.''

This kind of thing has not been said to the American people, and, of course, this wasn't said
officially, but it was put out.

And then you've had even someone from the Federal Reserve bureaucracy, out there in
Minneapolis, and those of our viewers who actually subscribe to EIR will have seen an
interview by a Mr. Rolnick, which also details the fact that we're in a serious, systemic
financial crisis.

EIR: Thank you very much.....

[Commercial break]

- Russia is the Epicenter of the Crisis -

EIR: Welcome back to EIR Talks. This is Tony Papert, and with me is New Federalist
editor Nancy Spannaus.

Nancy, within the past few days, Russia has become at least the public center of attention in
this economic crash, with imminent fears of government default, and actual turmoil and chaos
in Russia. What's going on there?

NANCY SPANNAUS: Russia is the epicenter of the world systemic crisis right now, and
obviously, the second largest nuclear power on this planet going into a total breakdown --
which is what is threatened, not just a financial breakdown, but a social breakdown,
potentially, military action, potentially, changes in government, or just total chaos could be
breaking there.

The path Russia has been on under the IMF, from 1990 forward, has been way up on the
stock markets, and way down in living standards and production. And now, the bubble part
of it -- the stock market part -- has begun to collapse because of the hot money-flows out of
Asia, looking for places that might be safe. It's a futile effort, but that's what's actually
happening. So what was very hot last fall, is in total collapse right now.

The IMF is in there, desperate to try to save the situation. But the measures that they're
proposing to save the situation -- measures which unfortunately have been adopted by the
Yeltsin government, and Kiriyenko and forth -- are actually the measures which created the
crisis in the first place. Increased tax collection, which is impossible under conditions where
factories are shutting down, and people have no wages. And, selling off vast sections of the
Russian wealth, particularly in the oil companies, the gas companies, looting the place totally
insanely.

So, it's a very serious situation. The latest is that the IMF has promised $10 to $15 billion...

EIR: Which they don't have.

NANCY SPANNAUS: ...to Russia. They don't have it. Russia owes, has to refinance at
least $1 billion a week. So, if you look, here we are. What are we in? We're in the middle of
1998. If they were to get $15 billion, it would last them ... 15 weeks! Right? And the IMF
doesn't even have, and the U.S. Congress has not passed an increased appropriation to this
bill, and quite likely will not. And everybody is hanging on tenterhooks.

Particularly Europe, because about $75 billion is at stake from European banks having lent
into Russia. But, of course, this is the Eurasian landmass, this is a major geopolitical center in
the world, and when it blows, it will have impact on absolutely everybody in that area.

So, it's a very dangerous situation. The good news is that there are signs of an emerging
alternate leadership to the International Monetary Fund and Yeltsin there. Yeltsin forces and
those behind him are aware of it. I think that's what's behind the mysterious murder of a
leading retired military man, Lev Rokhlin, that happened on July 3. This was a very
suspicious story to all Russians. Because it seemed as though the police knew who confessed
before they could have investigated more than one whit! They claimed that the man's wife
shot him at 4 in the morning. There was no evidence to that effect. In fact, the man's daughter
said the wife was forced to confess. So, this is a man who had threatened to lead the military
in political strikes -- not a coup -- but political activity to topple Yeltsin, because of the
hideous conditions of military men and former military men, under the conditions of IMF
austerity.

So, that's happening. There are strikes, particularly among the coal mining, the strategic
coal-mining sector. This is an area where the coal miners have cut off the Trans-Siberian
Railroad for a number of days -- they had done it a number of months back -- they are doing
it again. They've been joined by teachers, by doctors, by defense workers in Moscow,
they're occupying Red Square. And this is a situation which could blow in any number of
ways, and obviously, the Clinton administration, anybody who's thinking in world financial
circles, is desperate to cover it over. Clinton has promised to go there -- that was probably a
confidence-building measure in a certain sense. Yet, unless people honestly say, as some of
the opposition is, in Russia, that this is a systemic crisis, that we have to go back to
production, that we have to clamp down on speculation, that we need great projects, then
this is going to devolve. And you can rapidly see Russia becoming like Albania, becoming
like Africa in terms of civilizational collapse, and that having a spillover effect on a global
scale.

EIR: Or Albania with nuclear weapons, as Helga LaRouche has said.

NANCY SPANNAUS: Yes, Albania with nuclear weapons. It's a very frightening thought,
to see what this could mean for the world's future.

[Commercial break]

EIR: Welcome back to EIR Talks. This is Tony Papert, and with us is Nancy Spannaus, the
editor of New Federalist newspaper. We were talking about the world economic crisis, also
called the Asia economic crisis. Nancy, in the location where this crisis first broke in July of
1997, in Thailand, there have been recent quite striking developments. Could you tell us
about them?

- Kra Canal on the Table Again in Thailand -

NANCY SPANNAUS: Yes. I'm particularly impressed by the fact that the approach of the
Thais is not just an anti-IMF approach. That is also very important. The Thais have a strong
anti-colonial tradition, and over the past six months, in particular, increasingly people have
begun to mobilize -- all the way up to the King, in effect -- to say, IMF austerity, increased
taxes, increased prices for imports and so forth, these things are killing us, and we need to
free ourselves of what's effectively IMF colonialism. They formed a grouping called the Free
Thai movement, in effect.

But just at the beginning of July, we got a report in the English-language major newspaper in
Bangkok, called The Nation, that there had been an additional element added to the
mobilization of the Thais, which was a conference of academics, which discussed
re-instituting the Kra Canal project.

Now, probably there aren't a lot of our listeners who remember the Kra Canal, but Mr.
LaRouche and our movement first began talking about this back in 1983 -- at least then,
maybe before -- as one of the several major infrastructure projects in the Asia-Pacific Basin,
that was required in order to turn this area into a developed, developing section of the world
economy, to improve transportation lines, and transportation efficiency, to use these
infrastructure projects...

What the Kra Canal would do, is to cut through the Isthmus of Kra, which is the southern
part of Thailand. And it would mean that ships that now go through a whole number of
islands, would be able to cut, I think a 1000 miles, or more than that -- you may remember
-- off the trip, and it would also be the occasion to be able to develop that part of Thailand.
You'd have a canal, which could have cities, and everything that goes with cities, in terms of
bringing people out of poverty, and rubber plantations, or whatever they have there at the
moment.

But what was important about what these academics said, was not just, we need a project,
and the fact that it was the right project. But was that the reason for such an infrastructure
project is to get out of an economic depression. Now, those who have seen Mr. LaRouche's
New Bretton Woods speech, for example, from March 18 of this year, will recall that he
said there are three elements required to get out of this civilizational crisis. You need to
recognize it as a systemic financial crisis; you need to take revolutionary measures in order to
actually change the premises of economic behavior entirely -- go to national banking,
eliminate speculation in currencies, and so forth and so on; but thirdly, you need forced draft
economic development along the lines that Franklin Delano Roosevelt actually carried out
with the TVA project, and other such projects -- which were the model for the world in the
post-World War II period.

So this is what the academics said. They said-- and when I say academics, many Americans
will think that it's some kind of fruitloop somewhere. But in these developing nations, as in
our nation when it was young, academics are very connected with the military, with industrial
planners, with those who are concerned with building the nation through infrastructure, and
that's what these academics were involved in. In fact, we have good reason to believe that
EIR's writings were actually part of the thinking that went into the proposal that we need the
Kra Canal -- this is the approach to build out of the depression, this will bring in capital, but
not in order to loot our population, but capital in order to do something productive,
long-term capital.

And that this approach will contribute to the integration of the region. It will actually connect,
as some of these people understand, with the Eurasian Land-Bridge proposal that Mr. and
Mrs. LaRouche have been proposing as a world development project, required to get the
world out of depression. And they are anxious to mobilize people to a different approach
from the IMF. As many people may or may not know -- it's actually done it here in the
United States for years -- is come in and say, ``In order to survive under these conditions of
crisis, you have to cut all your infrastructure projects.'' They forced Indonesia to do that; I
think Malaysia, despite its desire not to do so, was forced to cancel a bridge project, which
was part of the Eurasian Land-Bridge. But this approach has to be dumped, and the Thais
are showing some real leadership on that question.

[Commercial break]

EIR: Welcome back to EIR Talks. This is Tony Papert. With me is Nancy Spannaus, the
editor of New Federalist and a board member of EIR magazine.

Nancy, the General Motors strike continues to expand. It now involves more than 160,000
workers. What does it mean?

- GM Strike vs. Globaloney -

NANCY SPANNAUS: What we're dealing with here, is a prototypical conflict over the
issue of globalization of the world economy. GM is the only one of the three major auto
companies that has maintained a certain amount of in-house capability for vertically integrated
production of its autos. Therefore, as opposed to setting up, to outsourcing, all of its small
parts to Third World countries, in order to get them at a tenth of the cost, it has maintained
plants in places like Flint, Michigan, where this strike actually began, that include the whole
gamut. And right now, because they are in a situation where demand for cars is shrinking, the
financial regimen demands that they cut costs. So, if they stay within the rules of the game of
the globalized economy, GM is really being pushed to do what Ford and Chrysler have done
before. Which is to downsize, to lay off a lot of workers, to shut down a lot of plants, and to
move a good deal more of their production -- not that they don't already have substantial
production in Mexico, which they do -- but to move a good deal more of it offshore, which
would mean the destruction, even more definitively, of what remains of the auto industry in
Flint, Michigan, and other parts of the American Midwest in particular.

Now, that's from the company side. From the union side, they understand this as well,
because they are being asked to sign on to working conditions that are absolutely miserable.
They are expecting to lose jobs and they are demanding job security. But they are in a sense,
in a losing battle to defend themselves, because it's the logic of this globalized financial system
which is demanding that GM treat their workers like slave-laborers.

So, it's a real standoff here. What's often said in the press is, well, GM's losing a lot of
money. I don't think that's the operative point here. GM may figure into losing a lot of money
just in order to figure out how they're going to restructure, in order to try to survive in a
down-sized world.

So, what really has to be addressed by the union, by anyone in GM who's still concerned
about production, as opposed to making profits, and by people throughout the United
States, other workers, is that here you have a test case of an industry which is dying. The
globalizing economy says, effectively, these kinds of manufacturing industries are not going to
exist in the 21st century. And the only way to approach it, is to say: junk the globalization
system, and go back to a system which pours credit into producing, and at decent wages.
Provides education, builds up these plants again. And that requires, can only be done, if we
have a New Bretton Woods approach, which means bankruptcy reorganization for the old
debt, and setting up a basis where companies that want to produce on the long term, can
actually get the credit to be able to do it.

EIR: National economy, instead of global economy.

Return to Kitco Homepage

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:03
Gollum (@TYoung ) ID#43349:: And that they aren't the ones throwing gas on the fire. We probably won't know untill after midight. Right now they are seeing if it's just another Gollum plane ride.

It isn't. This is global, not NY after all the world markets are closed. No Gollum or golem will keep the wings on this one. So we will see what the dawn brings.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:03
BCIWN (Remember) ID#206298:: On Friday we were dow almost 300 points on the dow and then rallied back. The same could happen overseas tonight!!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 22:02
THE GOLDEN PROPHET (Hang Seng UP 21!) ID#372262:: HK PPT ALERT!!!!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:59
THE GOLDEN PROPHET (Hang Seng down 70!) ID#372262:: Asia burnin' paper tonight!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:59
Shlomo (Nikkei Dow) ID#288399:
Copyright © 1998 Shlomo/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Japan stocks went to the precipice...and fell in. Who is going to tank next? Hang Seng anyone This competitive devaluation/falling stock markets/collapsing economies thing is getting scarier by the week.....and all without any Y2K stuff overlayed yet! Next question: I am a woman and my husband says I should get a gun ( legally, of course ) to protect myself with at home. Any opinions? This maybe a dumb question but here goes: is there any gun I could get that if fired several times could stop a predator but if I mistakenly shot myself once ( in chest, gut, etc. ) might not be 100% fatal? Unfortunately, I'm a real klutz and that's what scares me about getting a weapon ( eventhough I am a good shot ) . Am afraid I'll mistakenly do something stupid, absent-mindedly or something.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:58
vronsky (analysis not desire) ID#427357:: REF: TYoung ( Folks...you really do NOT want Japan to tank... )

It is not what is wanted but what the analysis concludes

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:58
TYoung (that is...I hope they can deal with the fires.) ID#317193:: Tom

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:57
TYoung (Gollum...I hope the CAN...) ID#317193:: Tom

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:55
Mooney* (Gold - Flat to Middlin' - Addendum) ID#350194:
Copyright © 1998 Mooney*/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Just so as not to confuse people, Mooney has NOT turned negative on Gold and Silver. At this juncture in History we are EXTREMELY undervalued. It is just that millions around the world follow charts and the old self-fullfilling prophesy says that if $275-78 cracks its game over for awhile longer unless we have a quick, sharp spike down and equally quick reversal. Personally I hope we trend sideways for another six months, ( Hey stop throwing that stuff at me! ) , so that i can dollar cost average some more before a violent bull that makes us ALL happy.
Hi Steve in TO!
Computer woes are almost behind me. Just upgraded to Netscape Communicator 4.06, but still am a computer puppy and haven't got a clue as to how to get my previous e-mail that I saved to disk re-installed onto new set-up. Somebody e-mail me with SIMPLE directions PLEASE!
moonstep@idirect.com

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:55
goldfevr (anyone: 24-hr./updating charts/quotes for gold & nations' indexes...?) ID#434108:: ...?

any such URL's would be greatly apppreciated

please publish here,
and if the 'spirit moves you...:
e-mail me, also...
at
goldfever@k-online.com

much-o
thank-o

David-o

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:55
Gollum (@TYoung ) ID#43349:: First things first. He will be dealt with, but tonight there are other fires to put out.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:54
Envy (Burned) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

I remember some time ago when the Nikkei first started it's big down-swing, I was watching CNBC or something similar ( I owned stock back then which I held for a long time ) and they were talking about whether it was a good idea to rush in and pick up some bargains - buy the dips mentality, except on the Nikkei. It wasn't obvious then that it was a bear, it was just a big hit that people had seen before ( albeit not as drastic ) . Anyway, can you imagine what your position would have been if you had followed some of that advice and bought the dip ? Scary.

14859.34, -438.86, -2.87 percent

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:53
TYoung (Envy...it is hitting the fan...buy physical...IMHO...) ID#317193:: Tom

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:51
THE GOLDEN PROPHET (Nikkei down 473!) ID#372262:: Burn baby burn!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:51
goldfevr (tolerant1@21:47 (?)) ID#434108:: have you published your first book of poetry yet?
yes?
no?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:50
TYoung (Gollum...I think they will get rid of him...now...to many problems at once...we watch) ID#317193:: Tom

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:50
El Borak__A (ROR - The old Homestead) ID#226299:: Is about 20 miles north of Pittsburg, 6 south of Fort Scott.

Copyright El Borak, inc. Makers of sippy birds, thumb tacks, and BubbaClause ( tm ) brand mistletoe belt buckles.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:47
ROR (EL BORAK) ID#412286:: How far are you from Pittsburg/Frontenac Kansas?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:47
tolerant1 (STUDIO_R, NAMASTE' and a gulp to you and yours...) ID#373284:: and the rush of air we feel is God's breath which touches us through your lungs...the Island that is Long salutes you�make no mistake about that�the luster and sheen of your shield arrives before you�the encampments are safe�Long Island Barbarians we be and we watch�ever vigilant�ever vigilant�and ever is a verb for us�.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:46
grant (Actually AUH2O, the copper jacketed 230 gr .45 slug was never adopted) ID#432221:: by NATO, that would be the 124gr 9mm ( unfortunately ) gb

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:45
Envy (@TYoung) ID#219363:: Oh no, you'd never offend - I enjoy your posts and respect what you've got to say. As for what the up/down would have on Gold, I'm not sure.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:42
THE GOLDEN PROPHET (Schlomo-) ID#372262:: It's a schlomotion kinda devaluation with expanded trading bands.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:41
TYoung (Envy...I did not mean to offend...just my view...) ID#317193:: Japan rises with the sale of US$ debt obligations and buy much gold. Hows that?

Tom

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:41
grant (Steve, no handgun will knock a charging human backwards) ID#432221:
Copyright © 1998 grant/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: that's all Hollywood BS.
A more energetic projectile will cause more hydrodynamic shock therefore can be more immediately effective at disableing an attacker. Contrary to earlier posts, a heart or head shot with a .22 will not necessarily immediately stop an attack, or even be fatal for that matter. A .45 stands alot better chance of immediately incapacitating. And yes, shot placement is the name of the game.
.22 ammo is, in fact, susceptable to reliability problems, especially when stored or subjected to damp conditions.
Without a doubt, the CCI Stinger is the .22 to use for hunting or defense. 1370 fps out of my Ruger, 1520 out of a long barreled bolt action.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:40
Shlomo (Venezuela devaluing?) ID#288399:: Panda, thanks for your opinion -- sounds about right to me. Does anyone know if Venezuela devalued over this weekend? Thanks.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:39
Mr. Mick (OLD GOLD your anti-Israeli/pro-Arab bias is really apparent.........................) ID#345321:: How would one compare the proclivity to violence between Israel and its Arab neighbors? IMHO Arabs have never shown restraint. Israel has.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:38
Digdeep (SHLOMO) ID#267276:: I think I read in Jim Davidsons latest book the Soverign Individual
that he recommended one and a half hours drive from a large city and 20 minutes from a interstate highway

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:38
Envy (Oops) ID#219363:: 14987.06, -311.14, -2.03 percent

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:37
El Borak__A (Shlomo - the 'burbs) ID#226299:
Copyright © 1998 El Borak__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I think it's not a question of where you are, it's a question of whether the majority of people around you can be reasonably self-sufficient in short order. Not everyone will be, of course ( it's your job to care for those that can't be ) , but when you get a critical mass of people who must rely on others for SIGNIFICANT support, you're in trouble.

I can tell you where I am ( if that helps answer your question ) , I'm 80-some miles south of the suburbs of Kansas City, but there is 50+ miles of farmland between here and there, and the nearest town of size is Fort Scott, a thriving metropolis of 8300 with a Wal-mart, chinese food, and a national guard armory. I still drive into south Kansas City every day to work ( fighting Y2K in the trenches )

As far as a hard-and-fast number, I doubt there is one. How about a long walk? More important is that you have a community of people who can take up the slack and help those who are helpless, and who are prepared to defend one another in the worst case.

Copyright 1998 El Borak, inc. Makers of fine wines, styrofoam peanuts, amd Werewolf-B-Gone brand monster repellent ( also works on biting flies ) .

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:37
AUH20 (Steve in TO) ID#200235:

The US Army developed the .45 caliber handgun for infantry officers. It was to reverse a bayonnette charge. The muzzle velosity was so slow that the hughe slug had the impact of a ton of bricks when fired in close combat situations. In those days, the slug was lead, now they are NATO rounds with a steel metal jacket.. Much more humane dont you think.

Last sentence with toungue in cheek

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:37
Digdeep (SHLOMO) ID#267276:: I think I read in Jim Davidsons latest book the Soverign Individual
that he recommended one and a half hours drive from a large city and 20 minutes from a interstate highway

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:33
Envy (@TYoung) ID#219363:: I don't want it to tank. I don't want it NOT to tank. I'm just watching the drama of it all. Nothing good or bad comes of Japan tanking or no, it just is what it is, and I guess people either move with it or they don't. In any case - if it does tank, there is an equal amount of good to be had from that as there is it if doesn't.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:31
6pak (Russia & Asia @ Gold & Oil) ID#335190:
Copyright © 1998 6pak/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Thursday, August 13, 1998 Published at 17:38 GMT 18:38 UK

Business: The Economy

Russia on the brink

It's been a bad year for the Russian economy.

The weak financial system has been hit by the spillover from
the Asian financial crisis.

And the problems that the government has in collecting tax
revenues have put international lending programmes at risk.

Now the financial markets are questioning whether current
economic policies are sustainable - and whether the currency
will have to be devalued.

Russia's economic problems
have partly stemmed from a
collapse in the price of oil.

Russia is one of the world's
biggest oil exporters, with
$22bn in sales in last year. Its
oil and gas companies are some
of country's largest industrial
concerns.

This year the price of oil has
dropped 50% as demand has
dropped in Asia and
over-supply has increased, despite the belated attempts by
OPEC to limit production.

The Russian government has lost at least $35bn in revenues
as a result.
http://www.news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/the_economy/newsid_150000/150383.stm

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:29
Gollum (Old Soldier ) ID#43349:: In the Phillipines we learned that when some guy came rushing at you with a machete, the little .38 officer's sidearm might punch a few holes in him but it did not stop him. NOt soon enough anyway.

With the .45 on the other hand, even if you didn't outright kill him you still knocked him down.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:28
TYoung (Folks...you really do NOT want Japan to tank...) ID#317193:: Tom

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:26
Steve in TO__A (Retired Soldier. I'm not an expert on these things. . .) ID#209265:
Copyright © 1998 Steve in TO__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: but maybe you know. In New Orleans I overheard 2 cops in discussing the large/small caliber issue. One guy said he favoured a very small caliber, .22 or .38, since with lower recoil it was easier to shoot accurately.

The other guy said he favoured a .45 with a higher power load bacause if a criminal was running toward him, the higher-energy bullet would knock him backwards.

Is this really true? I suppose with expanding bullets where all the energy gets absorbed that might happen. With a non-expanding bullet that wouldn't be the case, though, would it?

- Steve

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:25
crazytimes (My apologies...) ID#342376:: Golden Profit, should be Golden Prophet. Freudian slip I guess.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:23
ForkLift__A (Marshall @ 18:04) ID#156161:
Copyright © 1998 ForkLift__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I think that you are incorrect about the early
Roman republic. The position of Dictator was
one of high esteem. He was given total, complete
power for a short period of time in order to
deal with extreme conditions like famine,
pestilence, or military invasion. The Dictator
had to be of the highest possible character and
integrity. One who comes to mind was Cincinatus,
one of the most beloved of Roman leaders.
Those Roman Republicans must have been something;
it was a capitol offense for a Roman military
officer to show contempt or disrespect for his
men.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:22
Envy (15000) ID#219363:

She's sitting right on the edge *grin*

Nikk- 15001.70, -296.50, -1.94 percent

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:22
panda (Shlomo) ID#30116:: About two hours and away from main highways.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:22
crazytimes () ID#342376:
Copyright © 1998 crazytimes/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I agree with Steve in TO and Golden Profit also. Wasn't it IBM that announced buyback of shares during the Oct 97 drop that turned the market around? 10 to 1 that deal was worked out the PPT. The bull should have been allowed to die then. Analysis of Stock Markets around the world show that Big Bulls produce Big Bears and this is the Biggest Bull of all. All the anger directed at the doom and gloom prophets should really be directed to all the PermaBulls that helped to blow up this balloon IMHO. In a year from now, we'll see who's blaming who, and it won't be the Bears that were a year too early. It'll be people like Abbey Cohen.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:19
Shlomo (Suburbs vs. country/safety) ID#288399:: Opinions please: how far ( in driving time, not miles ) would a person have to live outside a city like Hartford or Boston in order to be outside the suburbs and in the country. I don't know -- that's why I'm asking.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:18
6pak () ID#335190:
Copyright © 1998 6pak/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Sunday, August 23, 1998 Published at 15:14 GMT 16:14 UK

World

Saudi dissident told to hold his
tongue

The Taleban said US raids were against the entire Afghan people

The Taleban authorities in Afghanistan say they intend to
restrain the activities of the militant Saudi exile, Osama bin
Laden, who is blamed for masterminding bomb attacks on the
American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.

Osama bin Laden threatened retaliation
last week after the United States
launched missile strikes on his guerrilla
training camps inside Afghanistan.

There was a simultaneous missile attack
on a factory in the Sudanese capital, Khartoum.

But in a BBC interview, a
Taleban leader, Mullah
Mohammad Omar, said he had
sent an envoy to Osama bin
Laden to remind him that it was
Afghan territory that was
attacked and the Taleban itself
reserved the right to respond.

The Taleban leader said there
could not be two parallel
authorities in Afghanistan.

Our South Asia Correspondent
Mike Wooldridge says the
Taleban has always maintained that Osama bin Laden is in
Afghanistan as its guest, not to conduct political or military
activities.

Pakistan sackings

The government of neighbouring Pakistan has sacked its
intelligence chief, Manzoor Ahmed, after it had to retract an
announcement that one of the American missiles landed in
Pakistan.
http://www.news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/newsid_156000/156936.stm

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:17
Steve in TO__A (On second thought . . . ) ID#209265:: there may be method to the Hong Kong govt's madness in buying stock. They actually get a voting interest in these companies when they do that. Maybe they are trying to get their fingers into these companies in a big way to enable them to intervene directly in corporate governance?

Do we have an Hong Kong residents on Kitco? It sure would be nice to hear first hand from someone about what's really happening.

- Steve

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:14
TYoung (Gollum...it begins or we wait for another day...I agree) ID#317193:: Tom

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:10
Gollum (Crossroads) ID#43352:
Copyright © 1998 Gollum/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: As I sit here dusk is falling, the air is still, amd the cicadas are calling.

In the land of dark limousines and quiet deperate efficiency another kind of dusk is falling.

It is a night of decision. The kind of decisons that must be made when further manipulation for the sake of profit risks all that has already been gained. The kind of decisons that must be made when a figurehead has become a talking head and outlived it's usefulness. The kind of decisions that must be made when one has finally come to the brink.

Sometimes one must cut their losses so that they might live for yet another, and better day.

The committee of three hundred, the CFR, the organizers of the new world order, call them what you will. These men did not get to where they are by chance. They do not lack in shrewdness and insight.

Tonight monitors are being watched, phonecalls being made, a crossroads being reached.

Before the rooster crows thrice...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:05
THE GOLDEN PROPHET (Steve in To) ID#372262:: Has it right. If it wasn't for market manipulation Puetz and Cheesehead would have been dead right last October! But the PPT had to give the big boys enough time to get out of the market in an orderly fashion so they intervened in the most blatant and conspicuous market manipulation in world history. Now the big boys have distributed enough stock to sink the Titanic--and sink it will! As all the little realistic bulls get the shock of their lives! The end of the paper bull is now upon us!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:03
6pak () ID#335190:
Copyright © 1998 6pak/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: August 23, 1998

U.S. says Russian summit still on, economy key

EDGARTOWN, Mass. ( Reuters ) - The United States urged Russia Sunday to implement economic reforms after Russian President Boris Yeltsin fired his government and said President Clinton was sticking to his plans for a Moscow summit.

The change of leaders is the Russian people's business, but the ( Russian government's ) policies are of interest to everyone in the world who wants a growing global economy, a senior White House official told Reuters.

Clinton still plans to visit Moscow for a summit with Yeltsin Sept. 1-2, Crowley said. The summit has been expected to focus primarily on economic issues.

The trip will go forward as scheduled. The president was invited by President Yeltsin and we have a wide range of bilateral issues to address in their meetings, Crowley said.

U.S. officials said they had no information on the state of Russia's previously announced plans to reveal terms of the debt restructuring on Monday.

http://www.freecartoons.com/ReutersNews/RUSSIA-GOVERNMENT-USA.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:02
Old Soldier (Calibers and bullet placement, Y2K scenarios, golden infantry) ID#185274:
Copyright © 1998 Old Soldier/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Oris, 14:46 In tests on game, .22 hollow point ammo is much more effective than .38 158 grain round nose. While working in Miami, Florida my wife did many X-rays of gunshot victims. She says that .22 hollow points are often far more destructive than larger caliber non-expanding bullets.

You are exactly correct that shot placement is far more important than the caliber or bullet. Gut shoot an man or a deer with a .45 or .44 mag and the man can cause a lot of damage in his death throws and the deer will not be seen again. A heart or brain shot with a .22 works every time.

Having said all that, I still prefer solid hits with heavy calibers, .44 special, .44 mag, .45 auto.

If you are having any reliability problem with quality US made .22 ammo ( Remington, Winchester, Federal, CCI ) it is the gun, not the ammo.

A burning chemical weapons plant does not necessarily release poison gas. Could be making bianary agents that only become poison when mixed. Either bianary or standard chemical agents are destroyed by fire. They may not have had a batch in the works at the time they were hit. Pictures were taken from up wind. Even if smoke contained poison it moves up and down wind. Might not have contacted anyone.

El Borak 13:46 I agree with your suburbs scenario. I also think you are right that many country folks will be well prepared. I and mine certainly will be.

ForkLift 13:46 My scientific wild ass educated guess is 26,666 toz. That assumes the training infrastructure already exists. If not, you must multiply that number by at least five.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 21:01
goldfevr (altho 'a-miss' at short-term timing, my2/98 claims gold as lifeboat, whether deflation or inflation) ID#434108:: ( from 9/27/97 post at kitco: )

When the tent collapses,
it will not be the center-post that goes first;
but the side posts,
and even the stakes. ...

http://www.golden-eagle.com/editorials_98/macrory020298.html

( remove '-en' from url )

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:59
Steve in TO__A (Mooney - glad to see another Torontonian . . . ) ID#209265:: back. Are your computer woes solved?

I've been hearing noises about a lot of producers waiting to sell forward in the 295-300 region, but very low lease rates would indicate to me that there isn't much desire among the shorts to sell at these prices.

- Steve

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:52
Steve in TO__A (Realistic - Just remember that . . . ) ID#209265:
Copyright © 1998 Steve in TO__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Steve Puetz wasn't that far off in calling for a crash in Oct, 1997. A crash started on Oct. 27, 1997, and had driven the Dow down by 500 points in less than 5 trading hours before massive Treasury Dept. intervention managed to bring things under control.

The factor Steve didn't include in his predictions was the willingness of governments to intervene directly in the markets. This phenomenon is spreading, viz. the recent Asian market interventions. What amazed me was the way the Hong Kong gov't bought actual stock rather than derivatives. This is a guaranteed way to lose tons of money! The US Treasury Dept., by contrast, bought S&P 500 Index futures contracts and sponsored share buybacks by some large companies.

The PPT is still a wildcard. They will lose control at some point, but it will be very hard to predict when.

- Steve in TO : )

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:49
THE GOLDEN PROPHET (PUETZ FOR PRESIDENT!) ID#372262:: And the BIG CHEESE for Vice-Precedent! Think they should run on the Beer and Brats Party Ticket! Their party mascot should be the BEAR! First order of business should be the incarceration of all yuppies, guppies and boomers and the confiscation of what little wealth they have left after the bear eats 'em alive!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:46
Mooney* (Gold - Flat to middlin'.) ID#350194:: Theories ( and BIS conspiracies ) and anaylsis aside - the old patented mickey mouse eyeball the long-term chart method keeps reminding me that we are in very dangerous territory. Either this double bottom territory holds or its more of the same step ladder progression down. IF $275-278 breaks, best case scenario is for a quick spike down and back up. Worst case is more of the same. Stiff upper lip, eh wot!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:43
Donald (Globex down 420) ID#26793:: .

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:42
Realistic (@goldfevr) ID#410194:: Regarding your message earlier,

The Hyundai strike has been resolved on Monday. ( South Korean time )

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:40
Donald (Argentina says fundamentals are sound; it is immune from world turmoil.) ID#26793:: http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980823/argentina__1.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:39
Steve in TO__A (Just a quick note . . . ) ID#209265:: about the Nikkei. Technical analyst Ian McAvity says that if the Nikkei goes below 14,000 chaos will break out. Japan is alone among developed nations in allowing banks to include equity holdings in their reserves. At 14,000 many Japanese banks will not meet international reserve requirements and will have to sell assets and foreclose loans to get their reserves up, or merge.

Also, the Chinese have been making hints again about a devaluation if the Yen goes to greater than 150/dollar. Just 3 more yen to go!

- Steve

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:36
THE GOLDEN PROPHET (To all the REALISTIC Bulls out there tonight--) ID#372262:: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

You guys are about to be quartered and slaughtered................................................................................................................................................................................ and you deserve it!!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:32
Donald (Peso falters again; shock waves sweep through Mexico) ID#26793:: http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980823/markets_me_1.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:32
SDRer__A (The spheres begin to move...) ID#290172:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Sunday, August 23, 1998: The News Channel
Arabia.com Sunday, August 23, 1998

Sudan Wants Total Arab Support
CAIRO ( AROL ) -- Sudan wants total Arab support-- in an expected meeting of the Arab League on Monday-- in denouncing Washington's strike last week on a Khartoum pharmaceutical factory.

At the same time, the Organization of the Islamic Conference ( OIC ) on
Sunday condemned the unilateral US attacks on suspected terrorist
sites in Sudan and Afghanistan.
http://www.arabia.com/content/news/8_98/sudan23.8.98.shtml

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:31
Hedgehog (The Summing Up) ID#39857:
Copyright © 1998 Hedgehog/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Black, awful night eveloped the earth. An ominous, red flame burned in the distance. I was approaching a fantastic figure which outlined itself before me as I came nearer to it. High above the earth appeared the repulsive red face of the Devil, with large, hairy ears, pointed beard and curved goat's horns on his forehead. Two large, grey, bat-like wings were spread behind him. He held up one arm, spreading out his bare, fat hand. In the palm I saw the sign of black magic. He sat on a large, black cube, gripping it with the claws of his beast-like shaggy legs.
A man and women were chained to the cube - the same man and woman I saw in the garden, but now they had horns and tails tipped with flame. And they were evidently dissatisfied in spirit, and were filled with protest and repulsion.
This is a picture of weakness, said the voice, a picture of falsehood and evil. They are the same man and women you saw in the garden, but their love ceasing to be a sacrifice, became an illusion. This man and women forgot that their love is a link in the chain that unites them with eternity, that their love is a symbol of equilibrium and a road to infinity.
They forgot that It is a key to the gate of the magic world, The torch which lights the higher path. They forgot that love is real and immortal and they subjugated it to the unreal and temporary. And they made love a tool for submitting the other to himself.
Then love became dissension and fettered them with iron chains to the black-cube of matter, on which sits deceit.
And I heard the voice of the Devil: I am evil, he said, at least so far as Evil can exist in this best of worlds. In order to see me, one must be able to see unfairly, incorrectly and narrowly. I close the triangle, the other two sides of which are death and time. In order to quit this triangle it is necessary to see that it does not exist.
But how to do this is not for me to tell. For I am evil which men say is the cause of all evil and which they invented as an excuse for all the evil that they do.
They call me the Prince of Falshood, and truly I am the prince of lies, because I am the most monstrous production of human lies.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:31
goldfevr (S. Korea( - a window into our future) takes another step toward anarchy...) ID#434108:: with Hyundai-strike's break-down...

the spectre of want & desperation
are beginning to rend the fabric of civilization

gold is the ... 'mend'

the costly question is

'when' - ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_156000/156778.stm

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:29
Steve in TO__A (Mo in TO, nice to see you back . . .) ID#209265:
Copyright © 1998 Steve in TO__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Thanks for the note about Russia. I think chaos is going to break out this week in the political realm. Maybe we'll see a shift of buying sentiment toward gold. Political chaos is always better for gold than economic chaos. When regional economies start falling apart, people send their money out of their country into investments in prosperous economies, as in the flood of Asian flight capital into the USA over the past year. When governments start falling apart, people tend to start distrusting currencies and want something that doesn't depend on governments for its value.

Jin- thanks for the note about the Nikkei plunging. As far as I know, the Japanese have abandoned Plunge Protection efforts. They were the original stock market manipulators, and I seem to remember an article about how the Ministry of Finance came to the conclusion that it was counterproductive. Is anyone aware of a revival of Japanese PPT efforts?

- Steve

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:27
Spock (Jury still out on gold but..........) ID#210114:
Copyright © 1998 Spock/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: There are signs of gold returning to its use as an assett of last resort.

http://www.afr.com.au/content/980824/market/markets12.html

A positive impact, but
don't go Russian into gold

By Stephen Wyatt

The Yeltsin Government's attempts to save its political
neck and Russia's deepening economic crisis, especially
its suiciding rouble, may not impact greatly on base
metals.

After all, anything that's hard and heavy, like copper,
nickel and aluminium, has been pouring out of Russia at a
frenetic pace ever since the demise of the Soviet Union
earlier this decade.

But it is impacting on the gold market � and for
Australian gold producers, it's positive.

The initial concern was that . . . ( the rouble ) devaluation
would encourage greater sales of metals, particularly gold
and other precious metals, in order to obtain hard
currency, said Kamal Naqvi, precious metals analyst
with the Macquarie Bank group.

But the reality has been a significant increase in lending,
swapping and using gold reserves as collateral, rather
than outright selling of gold.

What this has contributed to is a sharp fall in the cost of
borrowing gold � the gold lease rate. This benefits gold
producers, as it boosts the forward premium they can
earn when selling gold forward.

This forward premium is termed the gold contango � the
premium of the forward gold price is higher than the spot
gold price. It is the difference between the interest rate
received on money recouped from selling spot gold and
the interest rate paid to borrow that gold.

One-month gold lease rates are now below 0.5 per cent,
their lowest level since November 1994. This has
resulted in the one-month US dollar gold contango rising
to an attractive 5 per cent � a gimme in these deflationary
days.

This is why Ted Arnold, senior metals analyst at Merrill
Lynch in London, said: We cannot believe our luck at
these wonderful contangoes. They increase the forward
price at which gold can be sold.

Mr Arnold recommended late last week to sell
three-months forward gold just above $US287/oz.

The upside risk to gold remains very limited, say
$US287-288/oz basis spot. At $US290 and above we
would see very heavy producer forward selling, he said.

Dealers report the dramatic increase in the liquidity ( the
amount of gold ) available to the market has been due to
aggressive lending of Russian gold, mainly by Swiss
banks.

Of Russia's 520 tonnes of gold, 200 tonnes has
reportedly been lent in the form of a gold swap to Swiss,
American and German banks.

The Swiss seem to have lent the Russian central bank
between 75 and 85 per cent of the gold's value and kept
the gold as collateral, said Mr Arnold. This explains the
recent aggressive lending of gold by the Swiss.

Of course, if the demand to borrow gold was high, then
gold lease rates would not have fallen.

Typical borrowers of gold are gold producers, who
borrow spot gold to enable forward gold sales at a
contango, and speculators and fabricators.

But this demand has been lean. As a result, it has allowed
the gold lease rate to erode steadily.

This, however, does not give us much lead as to where
the gold price might be headed.

The bulls point to the lack of speculative and producer
selling as evidence that the gold market is bottoming. But
the bears point to poor fabricator offtake, with bullion
demand down 28 per cent in the first half of this year
compared with the first half of 1997.

Even so, the World Gold Council, a body representing
gold producers, stresses that demand in the second
quarter of 634.3 tonnes was more than twice the
disastrously low levels in the first quarter.

This was still 9 per cent lower than the record demand in
second quarter 1997 � which wasn't enough to keep the
gold price from falling.

For the gold market, the jury is clearly still out.

An apparent increase in systemic global economic risk
gives gold the chance to reclaim its position as the
ultimate asset of last resort.

To date, though, the market has shown a greater
tendency to sell gold than buy it. Its status as a financial
asset remains highly suspect.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:26
Spock (Beaming In......) ID#210114:

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:25
Gollum (Lest we forget) ID#43352:: The little boy who cried wolf....was eventually right.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:24
APH (kapex & IDT) ID#255226:: kapex at the moment I'm more in line with your second secnerio. I'm going under the assumption that this correction has already seen waves A and B down and we 're in wave C. I'm also assuming that all the action in the 2nd half of 1997 was some sort of wave 4. If all these assumptions come to pass wave C will be somewhere between 1.00 - 1.382 the length of A and will end near the 4th wave of lesser degree between 950 -900. IDT, I'm quoting the Sept contract. If the market closes above 1105 I would have to assume I'm wrong

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:17
Wizened (The Fact that..) ID#242303:: Puetz keeps posting here despite his many mal-predictions, attests to his rhino skin and balls of steel--as the English would say. More power to you mate!

Realistic you have a good memory, remind me not to make any predictions near you.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:17
Realistic (@BUGal_A) ID#410194:: Welcome back Mister LGB, it's really good to have you around once again.

About Silver: the stock levels are way below comfortable levels and eventhough the world is not accustomed to such low inventory, the current worldwide turmoil keeps the prices in check. Once things will calm down in the near future and if the inventories keep hovering around the current low levels ( very likely ) , Silver prices will snap back up in a matter of a few trading days only!

Let's be ready.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:14
Bully Beef (GIDDAY! GOONIGHT!) ID#260119:: GOGGOLD!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:11
Gollum (The Intervenor cometh) ID#43352:

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:10
Realistic (@Puetz) ID#410194:
Copyright © 1998 Realistic/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Puetz,

Last year, you updated us a few times about unfolding current market crashes that never materialized.

In fact, people who respected the overall trend and played the market from the long side from October 15th 1997 pocketed lots of profits.

Any chance that the same thing could happen once again this time around? Why would your crash scenarios of this year be more real compared to the other ones?

Thanks.

Date: Sat Oct 25 1997 23:46
Puetz ( bpuetz@holli.com ) ID#222167:
I reiterate my forecast from a week-and-a-half ago: The panic-phase of a stock market crash began about October 15th. While the actual high occurred on August 5th, the 10 weeks between August 5th and October 15th were part of a 10-week topping process.

Six weeks are the norm before a crash. But in the year 1720, it took the South Sea Bubble 10 weeks to complete its top. That appears to have been repeated in 1997. Virtually all stock markets around the world began to dive within days ( some before, some after ) of the October 15th full moon.

A Halloween Massacre still seems likely. On October 31st, the scariest ghosts and goblins are likely to be on Wall Street, not your street or my street. I will repeat, October 15th was the STARTING POINT of the financial panic. The climax is normally reached 2 to 3 weeks later.

That's why October 31st is a good guess for the climax. In any case, the upcoming week should be devastating for stocks. A drop of 2000 to 4000 points should not be unexpected.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:04
Gollum (The tunnel behind...) ID#43352:: http://www.radix.net/~tarpley/29crash.htm

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 20:00
JIN (opsssss....-275 now!so fast..!) ID#206358:: better run for cover..!
Good luck WALL STREET to nite!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:58
Auric (Asian Markets Down) ID#240288:: Japan down over 200 points at the start. http://quote.yahoo.com/m2?u

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:57
JIN (NIKKIE CRASH!JUST 180 SECONDS,THEY LOST -210 DOTS!) ID#206358:: EM..em......!
waiting in vain...!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:55
oris (ERLE) ID#238422:
Copyright © 1998 oris/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I'm an old friend of 22 Stingers. Those are kind
of combat 22s. Most powerful in the world, I guess.
But not most accurate in semi-auto, you know why...
I got TOZ-12 single shot bolt action, which I use
to shoot them, works great. The good thing about Stingers,
besides power, is that the case is longer and seals bullet
much better than usual 22 case. Also, never had any
misfires with Stingers, so I would say that Ruger + Stinger
makes nearly perfect combat weapon...if nothing else is
available. Thanks for your suggestion anyway...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:54
STUDIO.R (@ROR..........) ID#288369:: max weber for your spare reading....... ( this may be old stuff for you, but some of your concepts are likewise held by weber ) ......apologize if trite. http://msumusik.mursuky.edu/~felwell/http/weber/oligrchy.htm

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:53
Greenstone Gold__A (Tortfeasor (PofG down $.50)...) ID#427265:: The POG will rise upon the implementation of the EURO, not before...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:49
Selby (WoW) ID#286230:: Not all the nuts are in the White House!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:42
Tortfeasor (PofG down $.50) ID#37463:: So far the price of gold is not arising to the bate of a world currency crises abrewing. Down $.50/oz December contract. Hopefully a revserve will be shortcoming.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:39
refer (Marshall @ 1804) ID#409160:: I think many have the same outlook as your earlier post, I have seen the fema regions broke down on a map of the U.S.. I think the verses of Daniel inwhich you refer to will represent the 10 regions of the world that will be divided up, and the Ten Kings that have no kingdom that will rule for a short period and then be devoured by the beast power, will be the governers set up by a World government, This man who is to be ahead of the World government will be the antichrist, but not Satan.

The 10 regions of the world have already been made up also, U.N. has it mapped out.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:39
Mo in To (Market Breaking News) ID#347205:: To All,
I just had to jump in with this. In Russia, Yeltsin just sacked his entire cabinet for the second time! I think the international chaos is just beginning. Hang onto your gold AND your hats and keep your powder dry...we are entering dangerous waters.
MofromTo

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:39
BG__A (MORE GOLD) ID#246441:: WOW DOWN 50 BUCKS ALREADY..GONNA GET ME SOME @288.20...CAN ANYONE HELP ME FIND SOME DECENT LOW LOW PRICED GOLD STOCKS?I WAS TOLD TO DIVERSIFY..SO I WILL ADD GOLD STOCKS TO MY GOLD FUTURES AND MY PHYSICAL...CUZ I GOTS TA HAVE IT !!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:33
Tortfeasor (James on Hillary) ID#37463:: James, I agree that she looks better than most of the woman who Clinton has allegedly fooled around with. Clinton is not all that choosey. The years in the White House have not been kind of her looks. There are a lot of recent hard miles on her face.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:30
James (For the misogynists out ther who have been making snide remarks about) ID#252150:: Hillary. I actually think that she's not a bad looking woman...well, o.k.
she has fat ankles.

Human Race

I wish I loved the Human Race;
I wish I loved it's silly face;
I wish I loved the way it walks;
I wish I loved the way it talks;
And when I'm introduced to one
I wish I thought what jolly fun!

( Sir Walter Raleigh )

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:30
Gollum (I see light! At the end of the tunnel...) ID#43352:: But it's a reddish orange flickering light, and there is the smell of smoke in the air.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:29
Tortfeasor (Markets being hit) ID#37463:: It looks like all the markets which have open are down pretty substantially. It may be another financial title wave affair, washing over Europe and breaking on the shores of Jersey tomorrow. I wonder if Monica will become the spokesperson for White Owl Cigars when the limelight has lifted and she is faced with the harsh reality of working for a living again.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:28
IDT (APH) ID#228128:: What would negate your view that we won't break over 1100 on the S&P? Also, are you quoting cash or front month futures. Needless to say I have more than a passing interest in your views.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:19
James (EJ@What is the truth? For 90% of our population it will be whatever big brother) ID#252150:
Copyright © 1998 James/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: decides it to be.

It must have been quite a privilege to interview Chomsky. I read Manufacturing Consent & have long admired his dogged determination to enlighten the masses about the danger of a USG/industrial controlled media. Unfortunately to no avail.

I gave up hope for the U.S. public & even the Canadian public when they bought the ridiculous, outlandish hoax about the Iraqi soldiers unhooking babies fron incubators in Kuwait, hook, line & sinker. As you know the truth finally came out that the young girl witness to that atrocity turned out to be a Kuwaiti diplomat's daughter & the whole thing was scripted & staged. Anyone with the ability to use common sense would have realized that that story was phony & contrived right from the beginning. But I don't doubt that even today, there are millions of N. Americans who still believe it to be true.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:16
Puetz (Stock Market Crash) ID#222167:: New Zealand seems to be getting off to a rocky start as
Monday morning trading begins. Down 2.8%.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 19:10
Greenstone Gold__A (clktech__A (House of cards)......) ID#427265:: Costello is bought and paid for by a Melbourne syndicate !

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 18:57
James (Bugal@I told the unmentionable one that Pegasus would go to 0 when it was ) ID#252150:: over 3.00. Thus began his unremitting enmity for me.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 18:54
Delphi (Oris) ID#258142:
Copyright © 1998 Delphi/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I do not think Chernomyrdin is for a long time. We wish to do it better, but it turns out to be as usual�. Indeed, he has nothing in his pockets. I think he is a high level bureaucrat, but it is not what is needed now. He is not a new figure that people can think about may be this one will be better.
I mentioned IMF in my previous post for very simple reason - they will probably put their money on hold. That is not a big deal, but will scare more foreigners. Ruble may crash then and that can finally cause violence, no matter what Chernomyrdin is talking about with red�s and white�s. Signing off now - 1:05 am in Amsterdam

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 18:48
clktech__A (House of cards) ID#338111:: I'm just waiting for politicans everywhere to come out and say everything is alright with the money system. That's when I'll know it's about to get nasty. I have a nickname for the Australian Treasurer Peter Costello - Similin' Pete - No matter how bad the trade deficit gets, no matter how low the Aussie dollar goes - Pete's allways smilin'.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 18:43
TYoung (LGB...methinks you are correct...I'm uping my physical...both gold and silver...) ID#317193:: Currency crisis is moving rather quickly. Paper is starting to burn. How long the US$ stays up is an unknown. I don't think what unfolds will be pretty.

AND...I'm no gloom and doomer.

Tom

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 18:38
The Hatt (Are they bluffing?) ID#294232:: If this factory was not manufacturing agents used in chemical weapons then Bill Clinton will have much explaining to do! The fact that the Government has requested inspection teams from the UN you have to wonder whether they are being totally honest and simply want the truth to come out. The world desearves an answer.... ANY COMMENTS SHOULD THE INSPECTION PROVE THE U.S. WRONG!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 18:32
The Hatt (Yeltsin will resign shortly!) ID#294232:: Chernomyrdin is being put back in office with carde blanche power in order to make the transition less of a political crisis. Yeltsin will hand the reigns over in the next two weeks as he steps down. Maybe sooner!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 18:25
Midas__A (BC may be a puppet on a string, a tool to pit USA against moslems.. Clinton problems are just ) ID#340459:
Copyright © 1998 Midas__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: starting, Starr Report will bring out details of unusual sexual practices and despicable daytime behaviour in WH and on the taxpayer's clock , similiar misdemeanours by any Headmaster, CEO or school teacher would result in immediate termination from duty. What example is being set up for us when the so called Leader of the Free World takes advantage of his authority to get sexual favours from the support staff.

American's should realize that according the so-called popular polls, Majority of Americans does not mind such behaviour from their President.
No wonder that slowly most of the world is dis-enchanted with the American way of thinking and moral decadence of the Leadership.

There seems like a tactical plan is in place where USA is ready to strike anybody in the world to prove a point that outside of USA would be deemed an act of a Bully and willing to sacrifice 500,000 to a million dead in a US city in order to protect their short sighted and unfair policy to Mid East problems.

All this helps the propenents of evil Hypocrisy and satanic duplicity where they will pit tens of millions around the world against USA.

To them BC is but a Hollywood soap opera like Tool controlled by Greed, misuse of Authority, Personal morality based on Polls..

WhiteWater, Campaign funds, Vince F, Brown, Flowers, Paula J, Lincoln Bedroom rentals, Travelgate et al, Polls keep climbing.

Americans, what a bunch of confused principles........

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 18:18
ERLE (Alberich the dwarf,) ID#190411:: Your post on the leadership of this USA belongs on the editorial page of any decent newspaper.
I got my wife over to read your words, and she almost said that it is OK for me to read Kitco.
Then as I scroll upward, I see Studio/bard. Thanks to all.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 18:16
oris (Delphi) ID#238422:
Copyright © 1998 oris/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: The last thing that I care about in this Russian situation
is interests of foreign business. My concern, as I stated
before, is to prevent violence,
which could potentially cause great trouble for a lot of
people, and not only in Russia. It's O.K. with me if
Russians cheat on honest but naive foreigners, who already
lost a lot of money and will loose much more very soon...
the most important thing for world is to have Russian
nuclear arsenal in ONE HANDS.

Like I said before, only Finns are good in dealing with
Russians, everybody else, including smart and tough
Germans, is in the toilet...Junior excluded.

The role of Chernomyrdin, who is respected to a certain
degree by both reds and whites, is to prevent potential
violence. That is what he is called to do...Business
with the West is secondary at this time, for the simple
reason that Chernomyrdin is not going to invest 150 bil.
dollars in Russian industry immediately upon entering
his office...he does not have this money...So, wht he is
called back - he is back to play politics down.
Trust him or not, who cares, forget the business,
it's the show time....and it may work. I hope you follow me.

That is what Russia and we, living in the

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 18:07
kapex (Newtron: Just follow basis the Dow, but the fibbonacchi #'s are the same.) ID#218248:: If the market continues to rally, then it looks like the A and the B will be complete and this is the C. Either way the Dow is on borrowed time, because any of 2 or 3 counts could unfold and ALL of them are UGLY.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 18:04
Marshall (The diverse beast empire/america) ID#293211:
Copyright © 1998 Marshall/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Although many historians have already noted the odd parallels between the rise and fall of the Roman empire and America
( and the emergence of the UN ) , few seem to have realized the actual prophetic significance of this fact. Because this continuing set of parallel fulfillments actually brins us up to the present era, withing the details of the historical fall of ancient Rome, we have a virtual blueprint for what will occur in the near future in America.
The parallel identification even occurs in the eagle emblem which was utilized by both ancient Rome and modern America.
For example, Edward Gibbon, the leading authority on the Roman empire, writes howthe golden eagle, which glittered in front of the legion
was the object of their fondest devotion.... It might be noted the eagle found on our paper money has now become the object
of most Americans fondest devotion.

The Roman empire, as the fourth empire described in the statue dream ( the legs of iron ) , degenrerated into a ten part
division seen as ...the feet and toes, part of potter's clay, and part of iron.... In the east empires, the corresponding
fourth empire, America ( and the UN by inference ) , is seen as ...a fourth beast,
dreadful and terrible, and strong exxceedingly; and it had great iron teeth... and it was diverse from
all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Like America, Rome was originally a republic--with a parliamentary body known as the Roman Senate administering a constitutional
government. Amid an increasingly desperate series of military and political crisis brought on by ill-advised foreign
wars and moral decadence, this democratically oriented society deteriorated into complete tyranny.
THe American Peoples Encyclopedia tells us that ultimately, the Roman Caesar was vested with dicatatorial power as
he became to the Romans the guarantee of peace and safety. To put it another way, the
citizens were willing to part with their freedoms to preserve their safety.

As the federal dominion of Rome dissolved, various portions of the former
empire were savaged by numerous ethnic groups with forebpding
names like: Huns, Vandals, and goths. The empire was eventually broken down
into ten geographic concentrations of power. These violent groups largely immigrated
illegally into the various Roman provinces as the increasingly militarily impotent
political giant lost the will and the ability to restrict access to its territory.

As the geographic boundaries of the fourth ancient empire broke apart, several historians have specifically
noted ...that there is no difficulty in making out the number ten, or that some such distribution
and breaking up of the one power is naturally suggested... This tenfold
division of the fragmenting Roman empire is apprently symbolized in the ten toes described in Daniel
two at the base of the Roman iron legs.

Because they no longer possessed the iron-like raw military power to rule, the Roman Caesaric dynasty
donned ecclesiastical robes and proclaimed themselves Popes. This was a strategic attempt at holding onto
political power indirectly through the belief system they themselves manipulated via the offices of the Roman
Catholic church.

If the parallels continue to hold true between the fourth empire of ancient set ( Rome ) and the fourth empire
of modern set ( America ) , we can predict the following:
1 ) The American republic will deteriorate into an unconstitutional and totalitarian form of government that is
no longer accountable to the electorate.
2 ) Illegal immigration will be a significant component into the escalating series of crisis that accompany
America's slide into tyranny-- a period that is destined to be marked by ethnic strife.
3 ) Post-constitutional America will be divided into ten regions.
4 ) In the face of tremendous chaos and confusion, a great religious movement will seek to fill the void
as a unifying factor in order to ecclesiastically bring together the diverse components of disintergrating
government.

In varying degrees, all four of thse conditions already exist-- NOW. The federal government of the United
States is wildly gyrating out of control. The republic is morally and financially bankrupt and awash in corruption
with the hard truth hidden behind a wall of media conditioning and political propaganda.

Most foreign governments are aware that our president is an unindicted criminal that has now been implicated
in dozens of crimes including election fraud, embezzlement, influence peddling, drug smuggling, and even
murder. Across the country, racial instability is widespread with violence heavily focused on Black, Latino,
and Asian gangs in metropolitan areas. Obviously, illiteracy, poverty, and illegal immigration are social
time bombs that are ticking next to the heart of America.

In what can hardly be described as a conicidence, the nation has already been formally divided into ten regions
by FEMA---The Federal Emergency Management Agency. In this ironic parallel with Rome, this ten-fold division of
America was specifically structured in anticipation of a political state of emergency whereas the ten-fold
division of the Roman empire occurred spontaneously as a result of the series of civil and military insurrections
that destroyed the government.

As the catastrophic conditions described in the Bible as the Great Tribulation erupt, these four conditions will
intensify considerably. Martial law will soon be declared in the US. Against the backdrop of previously unimaginable
catastrophes such as giant earthquakes, enormous floods, meteor impacts, and nuclear and biological war, major cities
will break out in clan and gang style turf wars on a horrifying scale.

FEMA was recently elevated to cabinet level authority with complete federal police powers--all in violation of
constitutional restraints. We've already seen our last free election in America. I predict that it is a certainty
that the pattern in America will continue to follow the pattern of dismemberment of the central authority of the
Roman empire.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 18:03
newtron (kapex - What is your prognosticatio0n, if any, for the S&P Mannanna ?) ID#335184:

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 18:02
BUGal__A (@ Kolorado) ID#206235:: Forgot to mention, public perception of Y2K, and the worsening political tensions in the world, are going to drive people to safer pastures. Bodes well for Gold and silver over the next 2 years, even without inflation, IMHO.

A change of course for me? Yes. As I've said many times, I will switch positions quickly, when I see the fundamentals change.

The times, they ARE a changin..... ( sung in a hoarse, raspy, off key voice )

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 17:58
BUGal__A (@ Kolorado....Bull or Bear stock market? ) ID#206235:
Copyright © 1998 BUGal__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I read your post yesterday on why the current activity in the DOW will not culminate in a Bearish crash. As you know I have been saying similar things here for a year now. However, I now have some problems believing that the DOW Bull can continue.

Firstly, investor sentiment seems to be rapidly changing. Dissapointing earnings reports, ( We'll see more of same in Sept. ) , loss of confidence, Clitton scandlas, the Terrorist stuff Clitton has precipitated, a looming worldwide depression brought on by the continuing collpase of Asian, Latin American, and Russkie/former Soviet sattelite economies with debt being held in Europe, etc.

The latest stats I've been reading indicate a continuing increase in the bad balance of trade ratio for the U.S., imports up as much as 40% , exports down.

On a personal anecdotal level, my profession requires me to visit some 50+ high tech. companies in the Silicon Valley ( Engineering / auiditing functions at suppliers for Sattelite manufacturing biz. ) . Virtually across the board, I have been seeing VERY BAD precursory signs at these companies. I talk to the VP's at these places when I visit. The same companies that were working 3 shifts, and massive overtime, with unfiled job opening galore, have recently laid off employee's, have as little as 20% of the previous backlog, sales dropping off drastically, and no positive signs of a turnaround.

Employee's are becoming afraid for their jobs. Companies are making cutbacks left and right. The conomy will soon no longer be able to absorb these recently unemployed. We may very well be facing a recession, or even a depression in the near future. This change has happened virtually overnight. I do not take it lightly.

LGB

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 17:52
kapex (APH: re: Elliot Wave......I see 2 possible counts, either the plunge down Friday) ID#218249:: was the completion or part of a ( B ) , or the A-B-C to the .382 area of 8716 is complete, and we now have completed wave -1- and are in wave -2- of the 3rd, which if things start falling apart overnite would fit the 3rd of a 3rd crash scenario.Thoughts?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 17:43
BUGal__A (@Belgian Bank Gold sale called off!!) ID#206235:
Copyright © 1998 BUGal__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Apologies if this has been posted already. A recent article in one of my Numismatic periodicals states that the planned sale of Gold by the National Bank of Belgium, has essentially been called off.

The original plan was for the Belgian Govt. to sell of 133 tons of their Gold reserves via an official coin program. This would be for the purpose of paying down the country's debt. They have reconsidered, and will now revert to their earlier plan of selling only 10 tons of Gold through the issuance of a Commemorative coin program.

Interesting. But it does raise one question. Wasn't this 133 tons part of the big Gold Buy that I was told about as being the fulfillment of ANOTHER's prophecy of a massive Gold purchase in March that would be driving Gold to the $320-$360 level prior to the massive short covering which would ultimately take us to $6,000?

LGB

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 17:41
kapex (Damn Glad I bought that physical on friday.) ID#218249:: I'm scaarrreeeed. No Shit! For real!!!! Things do not look good.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 17:40
APH (SnP, Gold and Silver) ID#255226:
Copyright © 1998 APH/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: All - Thanks for the positive responses. I have been out of town for a couple days and I'm now catching up. The Sept SnP has strong resistance between 1095 -1100 and I don't think it's going to get though. I plan on selling above 1095. I believe we are completing a wave B or 2, wave 3 or C objective 960 - 900. This low may come sooner then most people think. After a short rally the lows made in October may turn out to be no more then a retest of the low 900 area. Buy Gold if the front month contract trades down to 271 or on a weekly close above 298. Dec Silver seems to be holding the 5.10 area, buy anytime the siz8 trades under 5.10. These metals could pop at anytime.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 17:38
BUGal__A (@ John Disney) ID#206235:: Belated thanks for the answer to my query re NA vs. SA Golds. I'll be watching Harmony and Durban closely the next few days, as I contemplate getting feet wet in Gold shares.

BTW, did you see that Pegasus is now at .03 cents a share? Wasn't someone here ( Who seems to be around no longer ) touting it's virtues not too many months ago? Your advice to that person was pretty good as I recall.

LGB

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 17:37
ERLE (oris) ID#190411:: I ran across your post on the .22.
There is no substitute fo CCI stinger .22 HP.
no-mo-jammin' Hi-Standard problems cured instantly.
Try 'em in your target rifle, instead of overpriced target loads.
Anschutz/20X Unertl.
The only problem is that they are silver, rather than golden.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 17:35
Leland (I Would Call This Mild Press Coverage on the Russian Devaluation) ID#316193:: http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpne0e.htm

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 17:34
SDRer__A (Psst, Sharefin...it's beginning to happen in real time... ) ID#286249:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: From BBC 8/23/98
Ominous tales pending 2000
One day this spring a supervisor in the warehouse of a manufacturer of frozen food noticed something he'd never seen before on the expiration date of a shipment that was just going out. It said that the food was 40 years old. Now here was a manufactured product that ante-dated the founding of the firm. Ridiculous. Still, to be on the safe side, the whole shipment was tossed out.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/letter_from_america/

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 17:24
HighRise (Skinny ) ID#401460:: defamation of character

Really, that's a joke, for sure!

HighRise

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 17:22
chas (The Hatt re your 15:15) ID#147201:: Takes guts. You are absolutely right and you didn't even mention the first cowards. I really appreciate this and if I were not in the middle of something else I would try such a post, but probably not as good as yours, Charlie

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 17:13
STUDIO.R (@charmed life exists on the Island that is Long..........) ID#288369:
Copyright © 1998 STUDIO.R/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Me Mumm Tolerant waves her hand loving
And gently the day's cares and troubles
Move quickly away, offing without resistance
Leaving nary a wrinkled trace on my weathered brow.

'Tis vigilant and determined youth in her thought
That doth lay simple and complete waste
To that which may have mattered and sorely serves
As dark companion to an older man of Time.

Holding in her midst, Time shall stay stopped
Filled with fear of its task and unwanting of attention
Unbridling love, now springing freely from here to there
Bringing eternal blossums of life with very little care.

happy day, mumm. studio.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 17:04
cherokee (@....looking.back................seeing.forward.....) ID#288229:
-: written in the 1500's for the 1900's...

V.83 A hypocritical leader from a powerful nation who loves to quote from the Bible.

Ceux qui auront entrepris subvertir
Non pareil regne puissant et invincible
Feront par fraude, nuits trois advertis
Quand le plus grand a table lire Bible

NOTE:
Entrepris: enterprise, scheme; subvertir: to subvert; nonpareil: non-parallel, unequal; puissant: powerful; advertis: advertise; lire: read.

Those who plan a subversive scheme
In the reign of unequal power and invincibility
Through fraud shall advertise ( a campaign ) for three nights
While their leader is reading the Bible at his table

COMMENT: ( Let the reader himself figure out whom this quatrain implies. )

VIII.14 An immoral leader.

Le grand credit, d'or, d'argent, l'abundance
Aveuglera par libide l'honneur
Cogneu sera dadultere l'offense
Qui parviendra a son grand deshonneur

NOTE:
Aveuglera: shall blind; libide ( libido ) : sexual desire; cogneu ( cogner ) : to hit, knock; adultere: adulterer; parviendra ( parvenir ) : to obtain, reach.

Great credit, of gold, of silver in abundance
Shall blind his honnor through sexual desire
Shall be struck with his aldultery offenses
Who shall obtain a great dishonnor

COMMENT: Do this quatrain and the previous one both describe someone that we know?
More to come.

VI.13 A dubious US president shall be impeached.

Un dubieux ne viendra long du regne
La plus grand part le voudra soustenir
Un captiole ne voudra point qu'il regne
Sa grande chair ne pourra maintenir

NOTE:
Dubieux: dubious, shady; plus: most; plus grand part: by majority; soutenir: to support; captiole: an anagram of the word capitol or Capitol Hill; point: point, mark; pourra ( pourrir ) : to become rotten, decay; maintenir: to uphold, defend.

One dubious president shall not reign long
The majority of population shall give him support
But Capitol Hill shall not give high mark of approval
Such a great chair shall be upheld from decay

COMMENT: This president shall be impeached by Congress even he gains a majority of approval from his people. The English word chair indicates that this event shall occur in an English-speaking country. And the word Capitol clearly indicates US Congress.

from....

http://web1.tusco.net/ourlady/index.htm

well.........nostradamus IS VERY INTERESTING...i bet klinton is impeached...
there is NO WAY he will resign.....he is a fiddler.....

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:53
Leland (John Disney) ID#316193:: Looking at the Stockmaster chart on Harmony Gold, I applaud
your choice of Harmony being your current favorite. Kudos!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://stockmaster.com/sm/g/H/HGMCY.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:51
ROR (Hilliary) ID#412286:
Copyright © 1998 ROR/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Her spirit is to be a conservative and be rich and powerful based on her privileged background. But she realized in the 60's the power and fame might be more easily achieved by abandoning the Goldwater Girls. At Wellesley and Yale this can easily be seen. Har spirit is conservative and nixon like and it shows. This is why she is failing Bill just as she went after Nixon. Bill is a tool she is the strategist and is a supreme elitist at heart. I think Bill is less so though he has had a HELL of a marriage probably based on control. Hence this makes the young lovelies all the more attractive next to the cold calculating Hilliary. I dont like Clinton but if some honeys like Jennifer or Monica approached and were feminine and not like Hilliary couldnt it send you over the top. Hilliary is his misfortune. Her ego looked down ( trailer park trash ) on Paula Jones so she wouldnt settle the suit thus causing Bill to lie. SHE IS BAD NEWS!!!Clinton should resign take his pension go play golf and find himself a young honey. Hilliary was an elitist from youth.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:39
Rising Sun (@Highrise) ID#411331:: That's right. It's hard to believe that she was a supporter of Barry Goldwater. I wonder what happened. She obviously threw out all those conservative values at her Yale University days. I guess it was her way of rebelling.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:35
Delphi (Tolerant1) ID#258142:: I wish it too, but� scary. Thanks and gulp to ya

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:26
skinny (EXTRA,,, EXTRA..) ID#28994:: Bill and wife launch lawsuits totaling $2,5 billion for defamation of character.
Lawyers are Americas greatest threat.
Could this ever happen

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:17
Speed (Sharefin) ID#29048:: I tried the program, failed the first four tests, downloaded a ROMPAQ from Compaq ( I own a Presario ) , upgraded my BIOS using the ROMPAQ and passed the tests. On the last pass, the RTC test showed failure but the program pronounced my pc 2000 compliant anyway. Cool site and test, thanks!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:14
John Disney__A (Sorry ..) ID#24135:: ROR ..

It just slipped out .. for God's
sake man .. dont tell anyone.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:13
HighRise (Rising Sun) ID#401460:: Chicago, and a Republican?
She worked on the Watergate case.

HighRise

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:11
John Disney__A (Studio.R) ID#24135:: Damn .. thats good.

and Alberich

I believe you have painted a fine picture
of the Clintons..

.. and now let us sit upon the ground
and tell sad tales about the death
of kings..

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:10
El Borak__A (The Hatt (The Media)) ID#226299:
Copyright © 1998 El Borak__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: One of the things I have noticed in my ( admittedly few ) interactions with media people is that many ( I want to say most, but I'm working with too small a sample ) of them really have very little understanding of the details of what they are reporting. It seems that many of have a dartboard in their offices titled Today I'm an expert in... with little balloons labeled Computers, International Finance, and the like, and wherever today's dart lands, that's what they report on.

Part of this, I think, is because they go to school to learn journalism, not computers and finance, and their work involves mostly images and symbols, not cold hard reality ( like an abend or a devaluation ) . As a result, they seldom know enough to ask the right questions, much less decipher when an answer is insightful or carefully worded bs. Look at how many times they've said subordination of perjury.

This is especially telling in the case of Y2K. I've never heard a single Y2K alarmist ( and I've been one since I did my first Y2K assessment in '96 ) mention planes falling out of the sky. But it turns up all the time in articles which assure us that planes will not fall out of the sky. None of the real alarmists care a whit about microwaves, VCRs, and the like, but many of the experts in the press crow on as if that were all we were worried about.

That being said, I really doubt there is much coordinated effort to buoy the markets, except among the insiders upon whom the press relies for information. The press, as a whole, simply lacks the understanding of what is happening, and is too lazy to find out the truth for themselves.

My 2 pesos worth, anyway

Copyright 1998 El Borak, inc. Makers of quality lawn care products, pet rocks, and el Presidente' brand cigars ( batteries not included ) .

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:10
HighRise (ALBERICH__A) ID#401460:: Thanks for the post.

Rockefeller think tank do you have more information on this.

A republican Rockefeller got him out of the Draft, a democratic Rockefeller was a sponsor of Hillary's health care bill, and Goldman sachs Rubin are partners with the Rockefellers on many deals..etc. etc. GE, NBC, MSNBC, etc.

HighRise

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:04
ROR (John Disney) ID#412286:: Do not disparage the name of THE BARON August Von Finck who is a member of the Group of 300. He is the ultimate Euro insider and he now owns 12.7% of Homestake Mining.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:01
John Disney__A (Golden Marks ..) ID#24135:: Glenn ..
Take a look at gold in DMarks .. Support and big
time low at 500. Assuming DM hold 1.78 says hard for
gold to fall through 500/1.78 or 281..
If it DOES break 500 dmarks .. then I think we
could have gold at 245 and Id hate THAT.
I have no idea whats holding homestake up .. I assume
it's that crazy German.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:01
ROR (Is what) ID#412286:
Copyright © 1998 ROR/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: is happening in Russia the final move to end reform and go back. Anatoly Golytsin's book indicates they are all still communists and the whole reform deal is a long term scam see http://www.fatima.org/perestoi.html. If you wanted to adopt so called democracy and capitalism and make the populace hate it tell me one thing that the the Russian leadership has done which would hurt in achieving this goal.Does Yeltsin do a surprise flip to joining the Communists in a govt of national reconciliation which tajkes a hard turn to the left and against the Coward Erectus.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 16:00
wombat (Help?) ID#23992:: What does it mean when I get no permission when trying to post a file to the ftp site.
Any advise

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:58
Rising Sun (@Isure) ID#411331:: I believe Hillary is from Illinois

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:57
SDRer__A (Apropos of absolutely nothing) ID#290172:: Best Films of 1979, as viewed from Leiden university students-

Excellent Amator
Apocalyspe Now
China Syndrome

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:56
tolerant1 (Delphi, Namaste' Best wishes from the Island that is Long...) ID#373284:: a given in this life is my greeting you, and yours...palms up...hello friend...may your sails never luff/loof...never...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:55
wombat (test) ID#23992:: test

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:53
Squirrel (gunrunner - you have mail from swyers@amigo.net) ID#280214:: A major risk from the aforementioned situation
are kids raised by others who do not share the parents' values.
Such as the appropriate use and value of money.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:51
STUDIO.R (@Lord Disney.........) ID#288369:
Copyright © 1998 STUDIO.R/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Unboxxed cigar.....excerpted from Dick III:

He capers nimbly in a lady's chamber
To the lascivious pleasing of a lute.
But I, that am not shaped for sportive tricks,
Nor made to court an amorous looking-glass;
I, that am rudely stamp'd, and want love's majesty
To strut before a wanton ambling nymph;
I, that am curtail'd of this fair proportion,
Cheated of feature by dissembling nature,
Deformed, unfinish'd, sent before my time
Into this breathing world, scarce half made up,
And that so lamely and unfashionable
That dogs bark at me as I halt by them;
Why, I, in this weak piping time of peace,
Have no delight to pass away the time,
Unless to spy my shadow in the sun
And descant on mine own deformity:
And therefore, since I cannot prove a lover,
To entertain these fair well-spoken days,
I am determined to prove a villain

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:50
ALBERICH__A (@glenn: (Hillary Clinton)) ID#254112:
Copyright © 1998 ALBERICH__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I like that you bring up this consideration. As far as Hillary's and Bill's sex-life is concerned I have the same impression as you: their marriage is pure theater for the public and I also believe they didn't have any sexual relations since many years.

But the reason for this crippled marriage is not any kind of tragedy - like Hillary being afraid of having sex with her husband because for fear of getting pregnant. I don't believe this at all.

I think their broken marriage is due to both of their rottenness of character. I have the feeling they both are typical victims of the socalled sexual liberation ideology of their generation, developed in Rockefeller's think tanks. Instead of coming over this ideology which they had adopted in young age as many representatives of the baby boomers, this ideology contributed to have a devastating influence on both of their characters. In addition, this ideology, when practiced as a life style, easily destroys the ability of experiencing beauty, depth, and unfolding of erotic and sexual fulfillmant within a marriage. Men who follow the sexual liberation ideology easily develop a kind of sexual behavior which leaves women sexually completely unsatisfied. This state of sexual disappointment for a woman can easily develop into sadistic attitudes on the side of the women. It contributes to the typical sado-masochstic character on the side of the women which American's short and simply call a bitch. Such developemnts can be observed quite often in women. Of course, when such a development of the personal character of a woman gets a chance to reach out for power, you can observe the development of a personal monster, an empty soul directed by greed for power. Such a woman has usually two choices, as far as her husband is concerned: either drop him or use him as a tool for expansion of her own power.

Such a women has complete dispisement for their husband who is completely unable to satisfy her sxually. Such a woman feels only hatred for her husband and dominates him completely and absolutely. What are the psychological dynamics on the side of the husband to stand all of that?
He feels guilt and inferiority because he never could sexually satisfy the woman to whom he is married. His sexuallity is completely self-centered and he looks for sexual release in random sexual relations with the result of quick, self-centered sexual preasure. His believe is unfortunately oriented on the promises of limitless sexual pleasure for himself, with complete inability of having any feeling for his female partners. His ideology drives him to more nad more sexual pleasures which he looks for only from his own, private and personal right. He is a psychological cripple, completely unable to act responsible. The physical side of his soul's emptiness in sexual relations is a fast high point, much too fast to satisfy a woman. Actually, that's what the sexual liberation ideology is all about: to create crippled human souls, unable to find fulfillent in a marriage. ( In this context see also Marx's and Engel's essays on the institution of the Family. )

As far as Hillary and Bill are concerned, I'm convinced that she knows everything and gives a sh*t about her husband's sexual life. I find it very probable that she found some release in lesiban relations. She ordered her husband to promote homosexuals and he obeyed. They both follow the ideology in which they are brought up, which crippled them, and which they try to further impose on their society. The only interesting thing to me is how long they are able to maintain the theater of their marriage which they only do because the public opinion demands it from them.

This is my personal theory about this couple. Of course, any resemblances to real personalities are pure coincidental.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:50
Isure (Hillary!) ID#421269:: In all fairness to Arkansas , I don,t believe Hillary is from Arkansas. A little further to the north I think.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:46
OLD GOLD (Hatt) ID#242325:
Copyright © 1998 OLD GOLD/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Interesting that the US hit Sudan plant.No one claims this had anything to do with anti-USD terrorism. Clinton and his handlers are seeking world domination by reserving the right to deny weapons to anyone they think might be threatening in the future. Hundreds of Israel nukes just fine, but heaven help us if Arabs get some poison gas. The double standard here is more than obvious.

Except many more attacks by and against US in the future. Unless US policy versus the Moslem world changes fundamentally ( not likely unless the Israel lobby is slapped down hard ) massive numbers of US and moslem civilian deaths are inevitable.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:41
tolerant1 (Let American's get down to BRASS ...) ID#373284:: Hillary Clinton is garbage, if ya want to see Arkansas's bitch get slapped you have come to the right place...I'm tired of this crap...you all know where I live...every one of ya...GET OUT OF OUR HOUSE you trailer trash...

A disgrace to the GREAT state of ARKANSAS...a disgrace...my pit is full...my pit is full...

You are no kin of my naps...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:34
gunrunner (Ramblings) ID#429121:
Copyright © 1998 gunrunner/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Mozel - Liked your post on 15:45 yesterday ( 22 August ) . You want to hear a good story on that subject as it affects Kitco, send me an e-mail.

Oris - Agree with you on the Ruger .22LR Mark II. It was the first brand new gun I ever bought - bulls-eyes at 50 ft right, out of the box -without adjusting the sights. I increased the capacity to 15 rounds with an afer market clip. For the .45 guys, they make a Model 22/45 that has a grip/feel similar to the Govt. 1911 ACP. The .22 is a lot cheaper to practice with than those .45s.

Squirrel - got a question for you ( off-line ) . Please e-mail me at this address: gunrunnr@nwfl.net.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:33
Delphi (Oris) ID#258142:: What Chernomyrdin can possibly change? He was PM long enough and had all the time to change things in economy. The whole story discredit both Yeltsin and Chernomyrdin. Who are going to trust them again? IMF? After the blow 5 Bn+ aid in three weeks? People? Banks? I think, few weeks ago you was right when posted a message that it can be very bad in Russia this autumn

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:29
glenn (Some more) ID#376309:
Copyright © 1998 glenn/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I would believe that Hillary is a Lesbian.
I do believe that they have done more wrong than we know about.
I do believe that they are Power hungry.
I do not pertend to know then 100% but try to makeguess which
in the end are problable just guess.
HM is going down. I own Sept 12.5 puts on Hm.
I paid 2 3/8 and I'm under water badly.
I pray HM goes to 10 so I can bust this trade and 'IF'
that happens soon so I can buy puts on the stock market I will
be very happy.
Dec Gold will break $280 and at some pointa fter that I will go long.
Futures only no options. It may not be that big of a move.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:25
Squirrel (cont'd) ID#280214:
Copyright © 1998 Squirrel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Even the average working class has followed the example of the professional couples. It seems rare indeed to see a classic nuclear family of several children and parents who spend a fair amount of time with those children instead of hiring it done and who raise the self-reliant, self-confident kids that much lip service is given to.

Undoubtedly these families have fewer kids themselves because a large portion of their incomes go to paying other families to have more kids.
The whole system, {employment, mobility, tax structure, social services, school, media, peer groups, etc} seems antithetical to more self-reliant families with several children and ties to close relatives.

Perhaps Y2K, along with dissolution of the above cultural/systemic impediments to such family structure, could actually improve our families, communities and our nation.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:25
Selby (Cigar sited) ID#286230:: Mary Madalin mention cigars' as one of the items in Star's report that would turn Bill's ratings on this mornings TV.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:15
John Disney__A (Lay on McKlinton ....) ID#24135:: this cigar was from its box
untimely ripped

Oris my brother ..

you are spot on ..

1. on Hillary

2. On Khartoum

In the words of henry shakabear

in his play McClinton , King

McKlinton will reign till

women mate with tobacco

and asperin explodes in the Sudan ..

Those witches could really call em.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:15
The Hatt (The Media Is on full plunge protection duty this weekend!!!!!!) ID#294232:
Copyright © 1998 The Hatt/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: The world needs to wake up and take a look around. Yeltsins move on Sunday will send absolute shivers through the financial community as it will be seen as further proof that the situation is out of control. His carefully prepared statement of carde blanche power is his way to distance himself from what i believe will be bad news for holders of russian debt. I am convinced that the holders will be offerred pennies on the dollar or perhaps even a total default. As this story unwinds the news networks are trying to spin the story that this will buy Yeltsin time, for what i donot know! In the meantime China is facing its worst ever natural disaster as millions of people are being left homeless. The flood waters have brought commerce to an absolute standstill in many areas of the Country. Their calls for help around the world have gone unanswered! Indonesia is near the point of no return as reports of massive looting and murders involving nothing more than food have been totally ignored by the press. Australia and Canada are moving towards similar currency problems and the press are reluctant to ask the question what if? Then there is the US who have suddenly decided to take the offensive route with terrorists. Their actions are sure to attract reactions and suddenly US citizens are forced into a paranoid mindset. How would you like to have to fly next week, what do you suppose will be going through the minds of those that travel as a regular part of their business. What will the US do if indeed the terrorists strike back on American soil? Keep hearing rumors that next target is inside Lybia. Last but far from least we have a President who has lost the majority of his power both at home and abroad. Could spend the entire afternoon citing one crisis after another and at the same time listening to the press trying to downplay the world disorder we face.
Never before in history have we faced such a widespread crisis as we face today and I am of the opinion that because of this we cannot depend on history to tell us what happens next. Bull,Bear,Charts,Waves,Monetary Policies,Inflation,Deflation,Interest Rates will be rendered useless in trying to predict the future direction of this crisis and its economical effects. The world is bankrupt and what we are starting to see is fragmentation due to a survival mentality....
Word from Japan is that their banks have been holding a fire sale of real estate for the last few weeks. They have been selling off all real estate tied to bad loans and taking huge losses. In the meantime they are preparing to sell off US treasuries and using those gains to flatten out their balance sheets. If this is true one can expect that Japan will go it alone and use the Yen to reflate its own economy and perhaps even align itself to the Euro. we are being kept in the dark as to our future and one can only guess as to when the Press will decide enough is enough and begin to report on a world crisis that could change all our lives overnight! Just one mans opinion!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:14
HighRise (The Iron Lady) ID#401460:: According to their ex-friend Dick Morris, a couple of months ago, he was quoated saying that she was a lesbian and that is why Bill was always chasing women.

Whatever, she has at least one big problem for sure .......BILL! Some day, she will probably run for president and get elected.

Great bunch of people to have in control of the ship.

HighRise

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:13
STUDIO.R (@Antonio y Cleopatra..........politicolingual puffaroos) ID#288369:: a tragic love story played out by these two very poor actors in the oval office. Ohmy! A Grope...A Puff to YA!!! Mr. Prez. studio.smellin'whackeee&tobackeee yeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaa!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:10
Squirrel (Glenn - re one child families, not unusual for professionals) ID#280214:
Copyright © 1998 Squirrel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Most of the professional couples I know have zero, one or at most two kids. They also usually have kids much later - after establishing themselves financially - typically late twenties or thirties or later {which may then often be adoption instead of a forty+ birth}.

These folks with considerable incomes have poured their money into their homes, other real estate, stock investments and other financial vehicles instead of having more kids. They also spend a heck of lot more on luxuries - more & newer vehicles, appliances, and services provided by others that less afluent people do for themselves or do without such as restaurant dinners, massages, medical care, toys, day care, entertainment, etc. {There are likely more in this list that I have no concept of.}

I would venture that this nation and our culture would be better off if these people had 3 or 4 kids and were more self-reliant and self-sufficient. Instead of working 2 or 3 jobs to pay for all the luxuries listed above they could spend more time at home with the kids. Example: a local two-income family spends over a thousand per month for day care. Good gosh! Their family would be better off by quitting that second job and one or both parents doing the day care themselves.

Even the average working class

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:07
oris (Delphi) ID#238422:: I mean not good news, I mean good info, means
that info I expect will be detailed. Change back
to Chernomyrdin is a step to change policies,
and it will work to cool down the situation,
although I do not know how effective it will be.

Kirienko was an escape goat, period.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:05
John Disney__A (Hillary and Gold) ID#24135:
Copyright © 1998 John Disney__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Glenn

On Gold

I have gold in a wave 5 .. with good support from
270 upwards .. I have the direction down if anything
but a move up would probably mark the end of the 5th
wave.. Also I have gold close to good suport in
dm and swiss but all over the place versus the yen.
I consider it indeterminate .. Im in the market only
because of the good RSA weak rand economics. In other
words .. favorable risk/reward ratio ( I think ) .
PS .. I know you think as badly as I do of Homestake.
Nonetheless .. the chart looks suddenly strong to me ..
.. I wouldnt short it now.

On Hillary ..

Im much less kind .. I think Hillary wants power and
tp promote her own agenda. I think she's gone off Bill
because he may have blown her place in the sun. If they
wanted sex together but feared pregnancy .. well now .. I think
they could take precautions.. plus pregnancy has
never resulted from fallatio ( which seems to be Bill's
favorite activity ) at least as far as I know.
I dont think we can really understand the Clintons.
They are different. They have always lived for power.
They are false. I believe they are MUCH worse than we
can really imagine.
I dont believe your medical premise ..

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 15:02
oris (glenn) ID#238422:
Copyright © 1998 oris/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: 1. Hillary Clinton is not pretty, and Bill naturally
wants to have some fun...

2. Hillary prefers to be first lady, and considers this
to be bigger fun than not being the first lady and
being honestly serviced by her husband...

3. Hillary is ready to make this political sacrifise,
even if Bill is not ready..

4. She is gonna get even with Bill when she is not
first lady any more , if she leaves him now, she is
an honest woman but not first lady any more..she still
has a chance to be first lady for a some time.

5. It all sucks...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:58
Winston__A (Getting out of Dodge) ID#243420:: For those concerned about the year 2000 computer meltdown, I highly
recommend Joel Skousen's new book, Strategic Relocation: A North American Guide to Safe Places. Get more information at:
http://www.xsw.com/securehome/

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:57
Delphi (Oris, ROR) ID#258142:: Oris: Good info from Russia in coming few days? Nice joke. I still think, it�s not tomorrow, but can happened soon.
ROR - Is the total collapse in Russia telling us what is going to happen? - scary. It is not total collapse yet. But it may happened soon. I was always wondering, why, till now, so-called transition to free market economy was so smooth - no big blood, with small exception - Chechenia.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:57
SDRer__A (Mozel--Plain English and Europa mix not!) ID#290172:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Bottom line? Dateline January 1, 1999-going forward:
Having suck ( ed ) capital out of the US, the Europeans must guard against an ebb tide.

The activating protocol has been 'amended' so often that details are wonderfully fuzzy-a state in which politicians comfortably reside and from which they happily function.

Speed-of-light money renders fiats more than a little dangerous. Exchange controls represent their attempts to craft a raft...
As one views the chessboard, one appreciates the cleverness with which the Chinese handled their challenge re: yuan convertibility.

I hope I've answered the question you asked! {:- ) )

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:47
Donald (Venezuela says U.S. bomb attacks were good news for much needed higher oil prices.) ID#26793:: http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980823/venezuela__1.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:47
tolerant1 (STUDIO_R, on the phone with me Mumm...) ID#373284:: life is good...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:46
oris (Old Soldier) ID#238422:
Copyright © 1998 oris/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: You are right that if somebody wants to be pro with
a handgun, this somebody must shoot at least 5,000 rounds...

I shoot a lot, every weekend, and would say that the only
pistol I'm good with ( means I can hit what I want to hit )
is my Goverment Model Ruger .22 cal. I shot at at least
5,000 times and I would not mind using it for serious
situation, despite .22 weakness. But this weakness is
very relative, yes?...if you hit exactly where you want...
I think that 3-4 accurately placed 22 cal. pieces of lead
can be very effective, although 22 cal. shells have a
tendency of being not terribly reliable because of poor
sealing...

Another thing: I think they bombed the wrong plant in
Sudan...can not tell you in details why I think so, but
one of reasons I got to think so is that nothing was released
into the air...What do you think?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:42
Donald (FLASH! Venezuela devalues) ID#26793:: http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/980823/venezuelan_1.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:38
ROR (Clinton) ID#412286:
Copyright © 1998 ROR/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Glenn, will he make it. Your Hilliary comment doesnt make sense since she has probably had little chance of getting preg in the last few years.

Russia

Yeltsin's cabinet sacking..Are these guys setting up to revisit their past with a new anti-US govt in October. This is when the Communists and Unions plan a major action. Remember, the first Communist revolution was the Great October Revolution...any coincidence that all this action is planned for October? The anti US tenor is slowly increasing as Yeltsin condemned the US actions and The Communist Party Secretary called the US a Terrorist State. None of this will be good for the financial markets. Remember an important underpinning of the bull has been free capital flow and no cold war. Any turn in this direction will clearly have devastating consequences for profit,trade and free flow of capital outlook. Is the total collapse in Russia telling us what is going to happen?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:34
oris (Delphi (Russian adventure...)) ID#238422:: My friend, what a surprise for us, yes?

When we learned first time that Chernomyrdin is gone
and some boy is appointed to be instead of him, did
I say that this boy was an escape goat and Chernomyrdin
will be back? I feel good...old uncle Boris is still
quite predictable.

At least things may come down a little bit...We'll have
some good info in a couple of days...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:27
Squirrel (Mr Mick - re posting of JPEG) ID#280214:: Yep - I followed the procedure at the bottom of the posting page, except for the file size which was way too big. I should have used more JPEG compression and lower resolution - or maybe a different graphic format too. I'm learning - and feedback from you guys helps. Thanks.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:22
tolerant1 (STUDIO_R, Namaste' ) ID#373284:: Gargantuan is the hoisted mug of tequila�the stallions have stood down�giants�big dogs�the biggest dogs on the Island that is Long, shoulder with me today in celebration of the Oklahoman and his wife whose beauty can only be spoken by stars whose breech reconnoiters the very beginning of magnificent�When God invented Lovely, when God dreamed,,,hers was the quilt that surrounded him and provided the gift of infinity found within those eyes�those eyes�those eyes�

Tape your windows�the pipes that be mine waft towards ya�

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:16
glenn (Hillary Clinton) ID#376309:
Copyright © 1998 glenn/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I have a theory on Mrs. Clinton. I believe that there is something medically wrong with her and that Hillary and Bill have not had sex in many years. I believe that the doctor told her after having Chelsea that IF she had another baby she might not make it through alive.
Look at the Facts:
1 ) They only have ONE child.
2 ) I read something that they were thinking of adopting a couple years ago.
3 ) Bill has cheated on her ATLEAST 10 times in 15 years!
4 ) I do not know about her but wemen are not stupid about there man
cheating on them and get mad when it happens.
5 ) Hillary pretends not to know and when Bill admitted it this week she when into seclusion in the library.
6 ) If Bill was getting it why would he be cheating on her so much and even if he did it as Govenor to continue as President is stupid.

My guess is that she CAN NOT give it to him and excepts that as a man he is now going to cheap on her and there is nothing she can do. I think that Bill continues to be married to her knowing that he can continue getting it from other women since she can not.

To me it seems obvious. Any comments

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:11
newtron (JP ) ID#388209:: Also don't forget, when the VIXon smacks the premium, even in a side ways vollitillity, the cost of insurance goes thru the roof & some people can't even get rated !

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:07
newtron ( JP, You have certainly articulated the most conservative stane, however,) ID#388209:
Copyright © 1998 newtron/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: while it must be acknowledged that an S&P short is a waisting insurance policy, there is no dividend involved, & as a Bear Market moves sideways while waiting for long term donward trend, & violent down swings that are easy to trade out of as the Bulls adjust their gaze for another staggering run at the cape that masks the sword ! Take some mad money & use it as a hedge from the withering beating we GOLD BUGGS have been taking for the last 22 months ! You won't believe the rush that holding the hammer gives as oppossed to the savage beating we've been taking @ the hands blind stupidity & Irrational exuberance & raw greed !

Good Luck & Always consider that most of the financial advice that I have rendered to my nearest & dearest over the last 22 months has been a perfect Black Plague reverse barometor to sound financial well being ! {; ) !

Y.O.S.,

TAR BABY

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:05
Delphi (Yeltsin fires Kirienko) ID#258142:
Copyright © 1998 Delphi/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Yeltsin fired his Primer Minister Kirienco and whole Russian government:
http://cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9808/23/russia.politics.01/
So far I can remember, Yeltsin was appointed as a Moscow�s first secretary of the communist party in 1986. His main activity in this capacity was firing regional party leaders and settling new, own prot�g�. When he started the second round - removing people, who he brought to power just few month ago, Gorbachev fired him. The question is -who is going to fire him now? Or he will stay in power till complete disintegration, as Breznev?
Moscow bourse crash tomorrow?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:02
Flash Gordon__A (yeltsin fires governement?) ID#284315:: whoaaaaaaaaaa
yeltsin fires his pm and re appoints the other fellow?
is this going to make yogi come back to wall street or is this good for equities?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 14:00
tolerant1 (sharing an Oatmeal Stout with me Mumm...) ID#373284:: Kindness, laughter, understanding...I have become the zenith...no where to go but up, up and towards the better...towards the better...yes!!!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:55
Puetz (Stock Market Crash update) ID#222167:
Copyright © 1998 Puetz/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Last week was somewhat confusing. I'm not sure if the rally
early last week was a continuation of a long Phase 2 upward
corection, or we just had a very short Phase 3 downswing.

Because the market did make new lows late in the week, I
suspect we just had a long Phase 2 correction. If that's
the case, the DJIA should continue moving down very
sharply for a few more days, before the Phase 4 rally
starts later this week or early next week.

The big Phase 5 CRASHHHHHHH should last from about September
4th all the way through October 2nd. It'll be interesting.

Regards,

Steve Puetz

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:54
mozel (@SDRer) ID#153102:: Saw the kind comments from you and ERLE and return the compliment to you both.
Could you explain in plain English the significance of the exchange control provision in Maastricht.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:54
TYoung (glenn...so what's new about gold going down? ) ID#317193:: Tom

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:53
STUDIO.R (@T#1......gulp&puff....yes, mi amigo grande..........) ID#288369:
Copyright © 1998 STUDIO.R/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: the little box will silently keep many buttons...of tortoise, golden metal or cactus peyoteous...and still have room o' plenty for many wonderful memories to come.
salud maximus to YA!!!.
of note: acquired an extremely rare stringed box this weekend, at shuddering expense, which is identical, except mine is slightly larger, to a favored treasure of your friend Leo.K. These were created by a man by the name of Mark Lacey, formerly of Los Angeles. six string grand pianos. vastly beyond vibatrations.

http://www.laceyguitars.com/Premier.htm

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:53
Gollum (@sharefin ) ID#43352:: They were checked both for bios compliance and real time clock compliance. Almost all new PC's less than a year or two old pass. No one has been buying any hardware or software thta doesn't pass compliance testing for over a year now, not in the big companies anyway.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:49
Puetz (Precious Metal Mix.) ID#222167:: JJK: In regards to your e-mail question -- I would 60% to
70% of my saving in silver coins, 30% to 40% in gold coins.
If you want some platinum instead of gold or silver, then
that's OK. Silver has the best value of all of the precious
metals -- based on historic ratios versus other precious
metals. Also silver is much rarer now than it has been
for many centuries. Finally, silver will be the most
spendable of the precious metals when the developing monetary
collapse finally takes hold.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:46
El Borak__A (Old Soldier - Cities) ID#226299:
Copyright © 1998 El Borak__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Your comments about cities in Y2K are right on, they are death traps. But those living in the suburbs may not find flight an easy task, especially if they have spend the weekend driving from gas station to gas station seeking one that is open. Most people will not leave their homes until after they have run out of gas, food and water. The idea that they're all going to be able to hit the highways in an orderly manner is ludicrous. How many accidents/abandoned vehicles will it take to effectively block the highways? Not many. Abandon the car, carry what we can, and try to walk away from Minneapolis in January? Most would be dead by morning. How far can one walk from L.A. without water? Not far enough.

The idea that gangs of marauders with hats-on-backward and their pants hanging low are going to hold rural America hostage doesn't hold much water, either. There are more guns per capita in rural America than urban. And it wouldn't take long for America's farmers and ham radio operators to set up a welcoming committee for the thugs.

I live in a county of 14,000 people with as many ( or more ) guns. How many crips would make it out alive?

Copyright 1998 El Borak, inc. Makers of faux pearls, Turin Shrouds, and Republican Congress ( tm ) brand inaction figures. Some dissembly required.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:46
ForkLift__A (Old Soldier) ID#156161:: How many ounces of gold, at today's price,
do you think it would take to recruit,
train and field a company of infantry
fighters?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:46
newtron (Suspicious) ID#388209:: What is your opinion of out of the moneey or shallow DEC 98 puts on the S&P ?
After the next Ragin Reversal, I am inclined to load the boat !

Y.O.S.,

TAR BABY

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:39
glenn (comments) ID#376309:: gold is going down this week.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:31
SDRer__A (WJC is not the Sun...rather the Moon, reflecting the Body Politic) ID#290172:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: We have an irredeemable currency, and such a currency, regardless of the variety of forms it may take, is a debauched currency. It is a dishonest currency and, of necessity, rests upon a standard of dishonesty in our behavior. It was introduced in this country by government repudiation of its contract to bondholders, by administrative violation of
pre-election commitments, and by misstatement of fact as to the ability of our nation's gold stock to support a redeemable currency.

Where dishonesty enters, evil begins.

Both our understanding and our honesty come into question in any worthwhile examination of our system of irredeemable currency and of the forces that are operating along with, or in consequence of, the introduction of such a currency into the economy and lives of
the people of the United States. All careful observers can readily perceive the striking parallels between current events and tendencies in this country and those described by Keynes as characteristic of Europe and England after the first World War.

Perhaps the most arresting characteristics of our general behavior in respect to our use of an irredeemable currency are: ( 1 ) the tendency of a multitude of people, many of them commonly called leaders, much of the press, and, apparently, a majority of the United States Congress, to support and to advocate an irredeemable currency which, to use Keynes' words, engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose; and ( 2 ) the reluctance of leading defenders of our irredeemable currency to examine carefully and to state accurately the pertinent facts and principles involved, and to apply the standard of honesty to this currency and in their allegations regarding it.
http://www.fame.org/research/library/wes-001.htm

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:29
OLD GOLD (Rate cut imminent?) ID#242325:
Copyright © 1998 OLD GOLD/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Fed says talk of emergency meeting false

WASHINGTON, Aug 21 ( Reuters ) - The U.S. Federal Reserve said on Friday that rumors circulating in
financial markets about an emergency meeting of Fed officials on the deepening crisis in international
financial markets were ``false''.

``The rumors are false and there is no foundation,'' central bank spokesman Bob Moore said.

Reports of such a meeting had helped to push up the price of U.S. Treasuries, particularly at the short end,
traders said. The talk, which included the possibility of a Fed interest rate easing, also surfaced in the
Chicago futures market.

``That's obviously helping the market and helping with steepening of the curve and all the rest,'' said Bill Sapoch, director of government and agency
sales at BNY Capital Markets Inc.. ``Two-year notes have gone beyond just really a neutral policy, they are actually taking a little bit of an easing into
account at this point,'' he added.

Fears that economic crises raging in Asia and Russia may spread and drag down emerging markets in Latin America and elsewhere ravaged Wall Street
on Friday. The Dow Jones industrials was down around 2.5 percent in midday trading while bond prices raced to new highs.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:23
crossbow (Sharefin @ Y2k test etc.) ID#342397:: Failed the first 4 tests, passed the rest.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:19
Old Soldier (Sharefin,Aug 23 1998 11:55 Cities Y2K scenarios) ID#185274:
Copyright © 1998 Old Soldier/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I am speaking primarily about US cities with a million plus population.

General characteristics of big US cities:

Central core of city is inhabited primarily by poor people.
Not well educated.
Not accustomed to self-reliant living.
Highly dependent on government help.
View food and water as coming out of containers ready to consume.
Not accustomed to discipline or following orders.
Frequent response to irritation or diminished government authority is to run riot.

Central core of city has non-resilient infrastructure
Many tall buildings dependent on electricity to provide heat, water, movement of people and things.
Narrow, crowded streets that are easily blocked on purpose or by accident. Few alternate routes
Very little stored water and food.

Things that can cause central cities to go riot.
A leader who stirs them up for real or imagined injustices. Atlanta central city gays once rioted because of perceived mistreatment of gays in California.
Government checks do not arrive for those on welfare or food stamp program breaks down.
Water or power system fails.
Police depart is on strike or off to take care of their home.
Any combination of the above or other causes.

We are accustomed to riots in US cities occurring in one or a few cities simultaneously. In those cases, the rest of the city and the nation is largely unaffected. The unaffected areas provide the resources necessary to restore order in the riot areas. In a Y2K scenario every place is impacted essentially at once. Everyone will have plenty of their own problems to deal with. There will be no ability for police, fire, National Guard, or Active Duty Military to respond to either restore order or help with essential goods and services. This kind of situation has never occurred in the US before. It will cause very rapid and unprecedented destruction and loss of life in the central cities. No water, no food, no police, no military; just lots of fires and rioting. Many will be killed by their fellows, many will burn, many will die of thirst. It will happen so fast that the streets will largely be blocked and few will escape.

In response to the above, the people in the suburbs near central cities will flee in terror. Many will have somewhere to go and many will not. They mostly will not be prepared and will quickly be hurting for water and food. They will, for the most part, not be violent and in some cases can and will be helped. Nevertheless, things will be very bad for those who wait until the riots start before they start to flee the cities.

I know most people do not like to think that the scenario I have proposed can occur. Unfortunately, we have ample evidence that it can occur. We have had many riots in many US cities over several decades. They stopped only because the greater system responded. Without response, and countrywide response will be impossible, the riots will be far greater in extent and violence than ever before. They will occur in most, if not all, big US cities. So much infrastructure will be damaged and destroyed that recovery time will be measured in years.

Don�t believe my scenario? Give me facts and reasons why you don�t.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:11
kuston (sharefin - RTC fail) ID#273227:: My home PC passed everything except RTC.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:05
Suspicious (JP / Your missing the opportunity of a lifetime,) ID#287312:: I consider Dec99 Put options practically no risk and June00 no risk at all.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:02
OLD GOLD (ROR) ID#242325:: I too have said a number of times that when the bear hits, indicators that worked during the bull will work no longer. Concepts of what is overbought and what is oversold will change dramatically. That is why those predicting a huge rally based on indicators that worked over the past few years probably will be wrong.

A bounce yes. But a huge rally no. And that bounce will be an excellent selling/shorting opportunity.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 13:00
sharefin (Gollum) ID#284255:: That's doing well.

Where the tests done on that program that I linked?
Did they get checked for RTC compliance?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:56
sharefin (Cory Hamasaki's) ID#284255:
-: http://chetday.com/cory500.html
Have some cash on hand, some? Try thousands of dollars. You don't want to be in East St. Louis, Miami, South Chicago, or living in Central Park... you know your area. You know where it's safe and where it isn't.

Beyond six months, you must be self-sustaining. This doesn't mean producing absolutely everything yourself. It means having collapse-proof money, silver perhaps.

If you had five double eagles, two sets of clothing, good boots, a cooking kit, a knife, a canvas tarp, an AR-15 and 100 rounds of SS109, you'd be wealthier that 99 percent of the people in the world.

If you had a 5 acre spread in the boonies, a well, a two room shack, a wood stove, Clorox, liquid detergent, a 10 watt solar system, an SSB/CW transceiver, a shovel, axe, seeds, you could live better than any ancient king.

What happens if it's worse than their guesses? Who loses and what do they lose? What is at stake? Are we talking about paying $1.98/gallon for unleaded or slogging over the Shennadoah mountains in mid-winter to escape the ragtag army of Free Delaware. ...as they sweep west on another campaign to subdue and loot Appalachia. Darn, only 27 rounds of 5.56 left... make each shot count.

Do you feel lucky today? Well... do you?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Railroads Won't Go Down
http://chetday.com/rails.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:53
tolerant1 (newtron, Tantalus_A, Namaste' gulps to ya...) ID#373284:: I am enlivened knowing the two of you...more gulps...back to the Great Lawn...yEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEhAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:52
Gollum (@sharefin ) ID#43352:: All the machines ( 15 ) I have tested were compliant except for a couple of old 386's and a 486. Even there the only problem was that the date didn't click over and had to be set manually.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:43
JP (Why you should NOT sell short in a bear market) ID#253153:
Copyright © 1998 JP/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: As you know, we are in a Confirmed Primary Dow Theory Bear Market. There is an old adage on Wall st, In a bear market, anything that can go wrong will go wrong. In a bear market , holders of stocks will be parted from their assets as time progresses. Bear market can stay over sold for months and will work off these conditions by moving sideways. The bear would take as many people as possible all the way to the bottom. It's very difficult to predict when the next rally will start. Usually , these rallies are very violent and start when no one is expecting it. Also you must remember that in a bear market being short, you must pay dividents back to the owners of the securities. Time works against you. Being in cash is like being short because you can buy the securities later on at lower prices. I have always felt that the best way to protect youself is by being in cash, treasury bills , long bonds for those needing income, gold coins and gold stocks for safety and appreciation.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:26
Rob (newtron (ROB that's an astute Big 10/4, BUT,) ) ID#412273:: Newtron

My comment about tonight was just HYPE. The stats are correct though and the market was rallying at Friday's close so.....

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:23
gagnrad (Rob, ROR, my 2 cents) ID#43460:: IMHO the shorts are probably more comeditors than cooperators amongst themselves. I think they merely follow what they see is a good source of profits. They will become longs when the market turns or when they go long the market will turn, I'm not sure which.

Must go. This board has been too depressing recently to stay long. BTW, for cigar afficiandos, today's Drudge Report is a must read, but is too obscene to quote here. Seems like WJC and Monica may have been sharing his cigars. http://www.drudgereport.com/

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:20
sharefin (Just out of curiousity - ) ID#284255:: Has anyone who has run this Y2k test on their PC's
Passed on the RTC test?

http://www.zdnet.com/vlabs/y2k/testy2k.html

Has anyone run it and passed all tests okay?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:18
Rob (ROR (Rob) ID#412286:) ID#412273:

I agree about the gold. The fundamentals physical supply v. demand have been bullish for a while. However, as long as there is liquidity for the bears to engage in short positions the gold market will continue to be weak. The bears may be wrong but they do have the resources to force

gold to where they think it should go. If or when this stops, I think that anyone who not already in the gold market will not be able to get in.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:12
SDRer__A (Exchange Rate Controls? Of course!) ID#286249:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: But the technocrats have another weapon up their sleeve. Under the Treaty of Rome, individual member states could impose exchange controls if their balance of payments position was under threat. Maastricht abolished this possibility as of the start of the second stage of Emu. Instead, it put in place a new provision, article 73 ( f ) that allows a qualified majority vote in the Ecofin to impose exchange controls between all member states ( including those that do not participate in stage 3, the single currency ) and the rest of the world if capital movements cause, or threaten to cause, difficulties for the operation of economic and monetary union ( in theory, these controls cannot be maintained for more than six months, but there is nothing to stop the Ecofin reimposing them time and again ) . That article, let it be remembered, is not some musty hangover from the Bretton Woods era thinking that underlay the original Treaty of Rome: it was expressly formulated as a new weapon in the Maastricht treaty. France has recently been insisting in closed-doors meetings that it must not be a dead letter: if it is there, it is there to be used.
http://www.euromoney.com/

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:09
El Borak__A (Rob and ROR) ID#226299:
Copyright © 1998 El Borak__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: One unknown is how the average 401 ( k ) investor is going to react to his 3rd quarter statement. A lot of casual investors I know move their money to whatever option was up the most in the previous quarter ( technically, I believe this is known as closing the barn door after the horse has left investing ) . Let's see, statements come out about October 15th, moves are actually made 2 or 6 weeks later ( depending on the plan ) .

What, oh what, will they do when they discover that their growth fund is off 20-30% from the 2nd quarter? Just ground bull for thought...

Copyright 1998 El Borak, inc. Makers of fine manholes, string cheese, and Lecher-B-Gone Cad repellent, now available in Presidential strength.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:08
cherokee (@....every.picture.tells.a.story.don't.it......mod.rod.stewart.......) ID#288229:: go here and look at weekly gold....

http://router.minot.com/~bohl/

this chart will knock your socks off....
buy low......sell high........what ( who ) is high....
and what is low......

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:06
newtron (ROB that's an astute Big 10/4, BUT,) ID#388209:: That's exactly what the Mr. Market would do except for CohibaGate, which might just stop this Ragin Reversal in mid charge ! Don't buy the openinng, unless you see the Wave Cheer coming from Tokyo ! All ofcorse, IMHIPO, as ignorant as it surely is !
Good Luck & Good Hunting !

Y.O.S.,

TAR BABY

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:05
tolerant1 (Fat and Happy, smoked Salmon...yummy...) ID#373284:: God Bless Bill in OR...gulps to ya...back to the lawn...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 12:05
ROR (Rob) ID#412286:
Copyright © 1998 ROR/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Another point re sentiment indicators. They have been only ten to twenty percent bulls on the Yen and crude oil plus commercials are long yet the big majority bears have been right for monmths in spite of this position.
I am sure the same must be the case in the Asian stock markets. Thus, when the bear comes these indicators wont work, this is how we will soon know whether the stock bear has begun. The biggest plus for the bears is that the world fundamentals are greatly deteriorating..this is the key as in the bear mkts noted in Crude, Yen and Asia prove that when fundamentals take over sentiment means very little. It looks like the FUNDAMENTALS are changing and not for the better. On the other side US is still seen as sagfe haven so the fundamental of liquidity will be the countervailing force. However, if the fundamentals are seen as negative enough then liquidity will begin to move against the market. The battle goes on but the narrowness of the rallies tells us the liquidity factor is beginning to shift against the bulls. We will know soon who is right.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:56
ROR (Rob) ID#412286:: Good observation. It should rally but if it doesnt then we are in the bear. We can look at the sentiment indicators on gold and they are almost always bullish, especially the COT so this is how we know we are in a bear. In the bear the normal indicators wont work. Should be both interesting and revealing. Have heard alot of money has been going into money funds so the fuel appears to be there. We will see.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:55
sharefin (Old Soldier) ID#284255:: Thanks for the reply.
I think I'd rather be sharing a beer with you,
Than raiding your apple tree.

I would be interested in your view of what could potentially go wrong in the cities.
I know I won't be near one.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:54
cherokee (@--apo.for.phalangeal.dysfuncton....) ID#288229:: ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....ssmslh..

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:52
cherokee (@.....realistically....looking.at.curriencies..........again....) ID#288229:
Copyright © 1998 cherokee All rights reserved: the c$......

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha59.gif

very impressive.....the mpeso.....too....

these events were described here 8 months ago....!; )
who will deny the strength---hardeeharhar...{sic}weakness
of the economies, and their respected curriencies, of
mighty CANada and MExico......yes....canme.....birds
of a feather....they will be the first canned in
norte america.....

the us$ will follow shortly there-after......pm's will
reign supreme......

'the time has come....a facts a fact...it belongs to them....
they're gonna take it back'..........the third-world-for-lunch-bunch
wants to become major players and they KNOW NOW IS THE TIME......

korea...can/will destroy seoul in less than 20 min with ld artillery...
iraq.......drew line in the sand.NO MORE co-operation.we'll bomb soon...
iran..........and who talks of iranready for war with west....soon..
syria............where the hell have they been of late? ready for war...
afghanistan.........ready to move into the lime-light?..warriors ready..
saudia arabia..........fixing to explode with muslim back-lash.....
turkey...........boom!
you name the middle east country.....BOOM!
oil 100+BBL........soon...very soon....
the straits of hormuz will be a shooting gallery.....missle city...

balkans.....
s. america.....
china........

it is going to erupt EVERYwhere at the same time.....

'INCOMING!!!!!'.....this has been a test of the feather-headed-for-the-heather-lunch-bunch.....feeling slightly froggy....ready to jump at the first anthrax spore spotted......

cherokee...!;preparing.for.phoenix.....again...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:52
Rob (Current Stock Market facts) ID#412273:

1 ) for the first time in several years more CBOE equity puts

traded than calls

2 ) Consensus has 19% bulls the lowest in several years

3 ) Market vane has 32 % bulls the lowest in several years

4 ) AAII has 25 % bulls a 3 year low

5 ) option premium ratio is .29

6 ) VIX has closed over 30 the 7 th time in the past 14 trading sessions

7 ) Money flowed into equity funds at 2.7 billion for the week

I THINK THIS MARKET IS ABOUT TO SHYROCKET STARTING TONIGHT ON THE GLOBEX

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:51
cherokee (@.....realistically....looking.at.curriencies..........again....) ID#288229:
Copyright © 1998 cherokee All rights reserved: the c$......

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha59.gif

very impressive.....the mpeso.....too....

these events were described here 8 months ago....!; )
who will deny the strength---hardeeharhar...{sic}weakness
of the economies, and their respected curriencies, of
mighty CANada and MExico......yes....canme.....birds
of a feather....they will be the first canned in
norte america.....

the us$ will follow shortly there-after......pm's will
reign supreme......

'the time has come....a facts a fact...it belongs to them....
they're gonna take it back'..........the third-world-for-lunch-bunch
wants to become major players and they KNOW NOW IS THE TIME......

korea...can/will destroy seoul in less than 20 min with ld artillery...
iraq.......drew line in the sand.NO MORE co-operation.we'll bomb soon...
iran..........and who talks of iranready for war with west....soon..
syria............where the hell have they been of late? ready for war...
afghanistan.........ready to move into the lime-light?..warriors ready..
saudia arabia..........fixing to explode with muslim back-lash.....
turkey...........boom!
you name the middle east country.....BOOM!
oil 100+BBL........soon...very soon....
the straits of hormuz will be a shooting gallery.....missle city...

balkans.....
s. america.....
china........

it is going to erupt EVERYwhere at the same time.....

'INCOMING!!!!!'.....this has been a test of the feather-headed-for-the-heather-lunch-bunch.....feeling slightly froggy....ready to jump at the first anthrax spore spotted......

cherokee...!;preparing.for.phoenix.....again...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:49
Cage Rattler (Ominous tales pending 2000 ) ID#33182:: http://www.news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/letter_from_america/newsid_152000/152817.stm

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:40
grant (I've not seen this posted yet. Must read whether you believe it or not.) ID#432221:
Copyright © 1998 grant/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Topic: White Water

The Bombing

Subject: THE BOMBING!! Date: Fri, Aug 21, 1998 14:41 EDT From: Roman11921 Message-id: White House Database doc: NOTICE On November 12th, 1997 the Following Document was released to the American Public. The wording is quite discriptive and needs not be addressed, However...we should look into the purpose of the Document...and ask...Why is it necessary for the President to put such a document into effect. He tells us that things couldn't be better...except for that 'gnat' from Iraq nipping on his behind. Since the Press Release only 'references' Title 50 of the United States Code, it really doesn't spell out what our President is up to...So here it is... The Story behind the Story A close White House Source...fearing to be involved with a violation of Federal law ( Misprison of a Felony...Title 18 section 4 of USC ) tells me that 'The President has empaneled a small, trusted group of legal minds...their charge...to identify the options available or needed to extend Clintons administration beyond its current term.'...here is the result of that Think Tank... Step 1...Extend a National State of Emergency as defined under United States Code, Title 50. Step 2...cause an event which is defined under this code ( nuclear, biological, or chemical weapon threat ) ...the event must be by use of a 'weapon of mass destruction' ( listen to Clinton...he is using this clause in virtually every speech he makes ) . The event does not have to take place within the boundaries of the U.S. Once that event has taken place...the President can extend his powers...take congress out of the lawmaking business by agreeing to consult with them 'from time to time' and put law and order in the hands of FEMA. Even the U.S. Military falls under FEMA jurisdiction... But this would require that a cooperative and trusted FEMA Chief be in place...Clintons Chief of Security while Governor of Arkansas was Raymond 'Buddy' Young...Young was appointed Region Six FEMA Boss in Clintons First Presidential Term...Young has recently been moved to Offices in Washington D.C. Will The present FEMA Chief step aside quietly...or will he be 'Browned' Out? This Press Release was extracted from The White House Virtual Library -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- White House Press Release NOTICE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE WHITE HOUSE Office of the Press Secretary ________________________________________________________________________ For Immediate Release November 12, 1997 NOTICE - - - - - - - CONTINUATION OF EMERGENCY REGARDING WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION On November 14, 1994, by Executive Order 12938, I declared a national emergency with respect to the unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States posed by the proliferation of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons ( weapons of mass destruction ) and the means of delivering such weapons. Because the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States, the national emergency declared on November 14, 1994, and extended on November 14, 1995 and November 14, 1996, must continue in effect beyond November 14, 1997. Therefore, in accordance with section 202 ( d ) of the National Emergencies Act ( 50 U.S.C. 1622 ( d ) ) , I am continuing the national emergency declared in Executive Order 12938. This notice shall be published in the Federal Register and transmitted to the Congress. WILLIAM J. CLINTON THE WHITE HOUSE, November 12, 1997. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Executive Orders in Effect ( Check them one by one against the Communist Manisfesto ) 1. Executive Order 10995 - Takes over all communications media. 2. Executive Order 10997 - Takes over all electric power, petroleum, gas, fuel and minerals. 3. Executive Order 10998 - Takes over all food resources and farms. 4. Executive Order 10999 - Takes over all means of transportation, controls highways and seaports. 5. Executive Order 11000 - Drafts all citizens into work forces under government supervision ( slave labor ) . 6. Executive Order 11001 - Takes over all health, welfare and educational functions. 7. Executive Order 11002 - Empowers the Post Office General to register all citizens nationwide. 8. Executive Order 11003 - Takes over all airports and aircraft. 9. Executive Order 11004 - Takes over housing and finance authorities and housing designated as unsafe; establishes new locations for populations; builds new housing with public funds. 10. Executive Order 11005 - Takes over all railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities. 11. Executive Order 11051 - Designates responsibilties of the Office of Emergency Planning giving authorization to put the above orders into effect in times of increased international tension or economic crisis ( anytime they want to ) . Then comes the Big One: EXECUTIVE ORDER 11490 - All of the above orders are immediately activated. President John F. Kennedy, at Columbia University in 1963 said it perfectly, The high office of the President has been used to foment a plot to destroy America's freedom and before I leave this office, I must inform the citizens of their plight. Ten days later, President Kennedy was eliminated. THINK ABOUT IT, AMERICA! http://www.mich.com/~ixp/freedom/executiveord.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto Karl Marx wrote the Ten Planks to the Communist Manifesto as a plan to gradually destroy the middle class without their awareness ... until disarmed and too late to stop it. Thanks treasonous career politicians in Congress ( violating their oaths of office to uphold, protect, and defend our Constitution and its Bill of Rights ) , all ten planks are now enforced as law in our United States of America ... and are gradually but surely working as planned! Consequently, Our land of the free is being covertly converted into a tyrannical communist police state! But very few Americans are aware of it because, they foolishly trust tax-consuming career politicians to protect their God-given Rights and Freedoms. As a result of the above, everyday, more and more former self-sufficient middle class Americans are being reduced to poverty-stricken dependents of the Federal Government. 2/17/93 Clinton announces economic plan, widely recognized as a government-growth package with $359 billion in increased taxes and fees�breaking his campaign promise to lower taxes for the middle class. 8/5/93�8/6/93 Without a single Republican vote, House and Senate Democrats pass Clinton's budget proposal for the largest tax increase in history. ( See 8/10/93. ) 4/8/93 Clinton proposes a new 12.5 percent gross royalty tax on mining. 8/10/93 Clinton signs largest tax increase in history, raising taxes by almost $280 billion over five years. 9/13/94 Clinton crime bill, containing almost $7 billion in pork-barrel spending ( such as midnight basketball ) , signed into law. 4/13/95 Clinton refers to passage of his tax increase�the largest in America's history�as a great moment for me. ( See 10/17/95. ) 10/19/95 Under attack from his liberal base, Clinton reverses himself, claiming responsibility and pride for his tax increases: I take full responsibility, proudly, for what we did. It [raising taxes] was the right thing to do. 1/6/96 Clinton introduces his fifth 1996 budget -- proposes $66 billion in new taxes. ( See 1/23/96. ) 4/21/93 Clinton's pork-barrel stimulus package defeated by Republicans in the Senate http://www.rnc.org/cafe/calendar.html Our country is being methodically de-industrialized to destroy our independence and to make us dependent on foreign production. 8/9/93 Secretary of the Interior Bruce Babbitt announces the administration plan to raise grazing fees 130 percent. ( See 5/31/95. ) Our USA Military has been under the command of foreigners in the United Nations; and government controlled schools are molding the minds of our children with socialist propaganda. ( Even though every type of Socialism is economic slavery. ) 2/9/93 Clinton halts drug testing for White House staff. 3/31/94 Clinton signs Goals 2000 law, creating new education bureaucracies and facilitating federal control of local education institutions. What is Goals 2000? In a word, it is the federal government's method of taking full control of the public school systems away from parents, local and state government. The weapon they are using to accomplish this is funding - either a state cooperates and agrees to the Goals 2000 standards and edicts, or it doesn't get the money. What are the GOALS of Goals 2000? Goal 1 - School Readiness Goal 2 - School Completion Goal 3 - Student Achievement and Citizenship Goal 4 - Teacher Education and Professional Development Goal 5 - Mathematics and Science Goal 6 - Adult Literacy and Lifelong learning Goal 7 - Safe, Disciplined and Alcohol- and Drug-Free Schools Goal 8 - Parental Participation Sounds pretty noble, doesn't it? Take a closer look though. In order to bring about these high ideals, the constitution must first be circumvented. Here are the constitutional problems, as summarized by Brannon Howse in Reclaiming a Nation At Risk: H.R. 6 grants unconstitutional powers to the National Education Standards and Improvement Council, established by Goals 2000. The 20 member board consists mostly of appointees of the President who must be members of the NEA. Goals 2000 and ESEA violates the tenth amendment by taking the right of the people in each state to control their own educational system, according to the Bill of Rights, and gives it to the federal government. H.R. 6 strives to develop with parents for all children a school-parent compact that outlines how parents, the school and students will share responsibility for improved student achievement and the means by which the school and parents will build and develop a partnership. In other words, the federal government becomes an equal partner in the raising of your children. ESEA will allow for school-based clinics. As explained by Geoffrey Botkin, they will be given money and incredible powers, including latitude to administer super-secret exams, vaccines, contraceptives, abortion counseling and unlicensed psychological therapies to some children without parental consent. Goals 2000 and ESEA will help fund a controversial and mandatory national program known as Parents as Teachers. This program should actually be called Teachers as Parents, because it allows for social workers to come into your home to collect personal data on your children and the entire family. The social worker's job is to teach parents to be parents, and it is simplified by the use of 12 computer codes which will determine whether your family is at risk. Being considered at risk includes having a parent who is ill, overweight, tired, depressed. Moving to a new home, giving birth to the child's sibling, or a death in the family, will also place you at risk. There is no computer code to label a family normal! ESEA will aid in establishing a sort of high-tech report card or diploma called The Certificate of Initial Mastery. Without this certificate, it will become increasingly difficult to be accepted into college, get employment, receive health care, obtain a drivers license, travel and even vote. ( Rev 13:14 By doing these miracles, he was deceiving people everywhere. He could do these marvelous things whenever the first Creature was there to watch him. And he ordered the people of the world to make a great statue of the first Creature, who was fatally wounded and then came back to life. Rev 13:15 He was permitted to give breath to this statue and even make it speak! Then the statue ordered that anyone refusing to worship it must die! Rev 13:16 He required everyone--great and small, rich and poor, slave and free--to be tattooed with a certain mark on the right hand or on the forehead. Rev 13:17 And no one could get a job or even buy in any store without the permit of that mark, which was either the name of the Creature or the code number of his name. ) Goals 2000 and ESEA will mandate the Outcome-Based Education on every state in the union, by mandating opportunity to learn standards. These standards are the belief that there is no right or wrong. ( Isa 5:20 They say that what is right is wrong and what is wrong is right; that black is white and white is black; bitter is sweet and sweet is bitter. ) Isa 5:21 Woe to those who are wise and shrewd in their own eyes! H.R. 6 calls for the development of educational technology that will involve the Department of Labor in assessing all students in their efforts to attain the OBE outcomes. In 1989, a supercomputer went online to track every child. Many OBE tests measure and store students' responses to political and religious questions. ESEA and Goals 2000 are unconstitutional because they discourage the teaching of the basics. The original preamble of ESEA said, The disproven theory that children must first learn basic skills before engaging in more complex tasks continues to dominate strategies for classroom instruction, resulting in emphasis on repetitive drill and practice at the expense of content rich instruction, accelerated curricula, and effective teaching to high standards. H.R. 6 will give the Secretary of Education unconstitutional powers. Here's why: The secretary has the power under ESEA to withhold funds from a state until the state submits an educational plan that meets the approval of the U.S. Secretary of Education. If, after two years, a state does not have challenging content and performance standards, the Secretary of Education can force onto this state the standards, or outcomes, of another state. If a local school district does not comply with this federal legislation, the state can be forced by the federal government to fire school board members and even the district superintendent in order to gain compliance to H.R. 6 and Goals 2000 so the state and district can receive federal dollars. Section 9401 in H.R. 6 is entitled, Waivers of Statutory and Regulatory Requirements. This section says, The Secretary may waive any requirement of this Act or of the General Education Provisions Act, or of the regulations issued under such Acts, for a state educational agency, Indian tribe, or other agency, organization, or institution that receives funds under a program authorized by this Act from the Department and that requests such a waiver, if the Secretary determines that such requirements impede the ability of the State educational agency or other recipient to achieve more effectively the purpose of this Act. Good-bye to home and private schools! The wording of H.R. 6 is so vague that it is open to massive interpretation. Geoffrey Botkin says, H.R. 6 is a masterpiece of flexible language and creative new terminology that can mean almost anything government lawyers want it to mean. Our government maintains its power over us by hiding what it is doing until it is done. We need to educate ourselves, so that we may educate others. Through educating others, we can return our government of the people to the people. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are some links to follow up on: Goals 2000: Increasing Student Achievement Through State and Local Initiatives GOALS 2000 FORCED GENITAL EXAMS GOALS 2000: THE CASE FOR REPEAL DUMB AND DUMBER, GOALS 2000 & O.B.E. Misconceptions About the GOALS 2000: Educate America Act CAN GOALS 2000 BE FIXED? OUT OF THEIR OWN MOUTHS: SELECTED QUOTATIONS ON THE SIGNIFICANCE OF GOALS 2000 LEVEN YEAR OLD 6TH GRADERS VIOLATED BY GOALS 2000--LITERALLY! Goals 2000 Usurps Parental Role http://ic.net/~celano/ip/goals2000.html Although he had promised to wage war on drugs, Clinton eliminates 83 percent of the staff at the Office of National Drug Control Policy 12/8/93 Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders suggests studying the legalization of drugs. ( See 8/31/94. ) 8/31/94 After her son was sentenced to prison for 10 years for selling cocaine, Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders remarks, I don't feel that was a crime. 9/13/94 12/9/94 Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders resigns after suggesting schoolchildren should be taught how to masturbate. 5/16/96 Clinton-appointed federal Judge Harold Baer Jr., harshly criticized after he refused to admit 80 pounds of heroin and cocaine seized during a drug bust as evidence, withdraws himself from the case. To render us totally helpless so we cannot resist Social enslavement, we Americans are being gradually disarmed in steps via the big lie that it's to reduce crime. Meanwhile, those who still have jobs have been reduced heavily burdened tax slaves in order to finance the on-going destruction of themselves, their children's future ... and the remnants of True Liberty and True Justice in America. And also to finance and fight staged wars and UN police actions around the world so Communism ( disguised as democracy ) can be established in all other countries. What we are allowed to see or hear as national news is centrally controlled and distributed to all TV, most newspapers and radio via a huge ( octopus-like ) thought-guiding news network. The evil plan is placing our United States of America, and all other nations, under a Dictatorial, Socialist World Government to be ruled by an oligarchy of Ultra-Rich Elitists through their United Nations. ( Elitists now pull our lawmakers' strings from behind the scenes. ) Here are the ten communist planks: 1. Abolition of private property rights ( via taxation ) . 2. A heavy progressive income tax on earnings. 3. Abolition of rights to inheritance. ( to true freedom ) 4. Confiscate property of all emigrants and rebels ( those who resist Socialist enslavement and plunder ) . 5. Monopolized, centrally controlled banking system. 6. Government control of Communication ( news network ) and transportation ( denial of True Liberty ) . 7. Government ownership ( dictatorial control via taxes and regulations ) of all factories and agriculture. 8. Government control of all labor ( Socialist slavery ) . 9. Corporate farms, regional planning ( food control ) . 10. Government control of education ( indoctrination ) . The Communist Manifesto teaches, for the sake of the common good, individuals must give up their God-given Right to Life, Liberty and Property ... the right to self-defence; the right to all fruits of their own labor; and the freedom to choose and to be let alone. Communism, as do all forms of Socialism, always ends in a ruthless police state with a Few making legalisms to enslave and rob The Many! In such a government, instead of protecting the people's rights, possessions and freedom, the police protect the rulers' power to enslave the people. Control of every facet of people's lives and their production of wealth is the key concept of all Socialism, of which Communism is but one form. All Socialism is based on a few rich parasites who usurp the government; who control via their news, lies, statutes, regulations, courts, police, and prisons; to steal via inflation, taxation, and seizure ... the wealth created by the masses of people. Under Socialism, the people are always eventually reduced to unarmed, government-owned slaves! All wealth comes from the earth by the application of mind and muscle. Wealth is food, shelter, clothing, cars, TV, etc. needed for sustaining and\or enjoyment of life; and should belong to and be controlled by those who work to create it. But Communism, whether called by its true name or a democracy, is a system that uses lawmaking to legally rob the people of the wealth they create, so the parasitic rulers and their law-makers can live in lavish splendor. Presently, all ten planks of the Communist Manifesto, in one form or another, are law in our United States of America. The full force and paralyzing effect will not be realized by most people until all of our guns have been taken from us. We Americans now possess nearly 200 million firearms ( most of which are semi-automatics ) ... enough firepower to stop any army in the world! That is why Congress is presently making so many gun laws. For we must be disarmed before its Ultra-Rich Elitist masters' evil dream of their one-world government over millions of helpless slaves can be fully ... and permanently realized. Every American who values freedom should without fail make copies of this circular and pass them on to others, who do the same ... on and on! Because, only Millions of informed Americans can save it! There is no time to lose! The Communists' trap is silently closing rapidly! If you cannot make copies, at least re-mail this copy to a friend or to a stranger ... and encourage your friends to vote against all Career Politicians.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:38
Cage Rattler (Breaking news: Yeltsin fires government again ) ID#33182:: http://www.news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_157000/157006.stm

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:37
Old Soldier (BillinOregon, AIRBORNE!!!) ID#185274:
Copyright © 1998 Old Soldier/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Bill, Yes, and though you didn�t mention it, being part of the 82nd Airborne Division, you also knew the training and discipline required for soldiers to conduct extremely difficult and dangerous paratroop operations in all kinds of conditions good and bad. Nothing like the pucker factor of a full combat equipment night mass tactical drop on an unimproved drop zone eh?

I can�t think that shooting a truly hungry man would ever be necessary. When men get hungry unto starvation, they get quite passive. Contrary to popular belief, extreme violence is mainly the province of the physically strong and healthy.

Good to hear your memories of times past.

I will be away for the afternoon making some collections and perhaps confronting some bad guys. Keeps the ole infantryman sharp!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:31
Cage Rattler (Richard Cluver - Cautiously optimistic in the near term) ID#33182:: http://www.rcis.co.za/predicts/980823.sht

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:19
Cage Rattler (Only 26% of NYSE stocks above their 200-day moving average) ID#33182:: http://www.decisionpoint.com/ChartSpotliteFiles/ChartSpot13.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:18
cherokee (@...damned.good.for.gold.........bad.for.the.ruling.elitists..........klinton.going.down...a.liar..) ID#288229:: witness the mother of all paper curriencies....

the us$....sitting on the edge of the proverbial
razor blade.....a has been in the making...........

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha66.gif

the us$ is fixing to follow the mpeso and c$..............
WHO said they were going much lower last year REAListically....
they have miles to go before they sleep.....

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:09
EJ (James: re Noam Chomsky) ID#45173:
Copyright © 1998 EJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I interviewed him back in my journalism days and called his home during the Gulf War to get his take on US press coverage ( he lives in Lexington, MA ) . This war will be covered with the same uncritical eye by the US media, a far less critical and descerning press than covered the Vietnam war, as bad as that coverage was from a telling what happend standard of objective journalism. The Internet may be helpful, but,as in the case of faked Internet reportsand pictures or atrocities against Chinese in Indonesia, much bad journalism abounds on the Internet as well.

Where does one go for the truth?

-EJ

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:02
BillinOregon (Old Soldier) ID#262242:
Copyright © 1998 BillinOregon/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I am back from the Kitco meeting on Long Island, we had a wonderful time and it was a pleasure meeting everybody.

From New York, I went to new Orleans and spent a week touring, dining and sweating. It was very hot and muggy, it is good to be home in the cool Oregon summer..

Old Soldier, your post is very true. Having spent 3 years in the Army 1956 to 1959 ( 82nd division, Fort Bragg N.C. ) and having looked down the business end of a 45, the mental and physical training of a soldier from a top outfit is far superior to anything a street tough can imagine. Most of the loud mouths and braggerts did not make it through the training.

I returned to Ft. Bragg for a visit in 1991 and what a differant Army it is now, the young soldiers I talked to were not as good at soldering as we were but I feel they are a lot more competant in getting the job done. I was impressed with their attitudes and their ability to use the hi-tech weapons they have now.

I don't carry a gun anymore, just my bible. I could never shoot a hungry man.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 11:00
newtron (OLD, correction : Kryton = KRYPTON !) ID#388209:

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 10:55
Selby (The Drudge) ID#286230:: is still running his cigar ad. I imagine all the talking heads of Washington are desperate to be the first to allude to it if not repeat
the story on TV today. If they were doing their job instead of repeating what they have been told it would have been old news long ago.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 10:54
Steve - Perth__A (Paul Krugman knocks us breathless - EXCHANGE CONTROLS FOR ASIA!!!!) ID#284170:: Asia advised: it's time for desperate measures
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980824/feature/feature2.html

Russian debt shockwave
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980824/market/markets1.html

Stampede! Bears and and bulls about even
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980824/market/markets3.html

Stocks, $A are in for a scary ride
http://www.afr.com.au/content/980824/market/markets2.html

http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~netking/blizard.htm

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 10:42
Old Soldier (Current U.S. military capabilites) ID#185274:: Clinton has diminished U.S. military capability by at least 60% from where it was when he took over. His claims for reducing government are true on their face. The horror is that all those reductions came out of the military. Nevertheless, the U.S. still has more than addequate military to deal with the likes of Bin Laden from the air or on the ground. The weak link is the weak political will to actually continue a policy of striking at terrorism quickly and repeatedly as necessary.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 10:39
Donald (The IMF money sent to Russia is all gone; foreigners withdrew it all. Must Read!) ID#26793:: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-08/23/230l-082398-idx.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 10:39
kapex (More Gold: Keep those - no gold - reports comming! This is why you (and you are) ) ID#218248:: should be loading up on gold. J Paul Getty would be having a field day. I only people I follow are the smart money, not analysts. People like Buffet, Fosback, who by the way, turned bullish on gold and stocks in the last month or two. He also turned very negative on the stock market in the summer of 1987 before the crash. BTW, he is very negative on the stock market now.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 10:33
newtron (Correction NAR mut have been Jerry's # 2) ID#388209:: Good thing he died before the election !

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 10:29
newtron (Old Soilder ) ID#388209:
Copyright © 1998 newtron/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I have enjoyed reading your post & would appreciate your take on the current moral fighting readyness of the forward capabilities of US Armed Forces, especially in light of the DADT Clinton Policy on Gay Cabayellros, Budget cuts & Female participation at the squad level ! I know this could be asking for War & Peace, but I would certainly appreciate getting your brief assessment of a scenario where, say, Bin Lauden is sporting Red Mercury in Lower Manhatten & that Crazy Lovable Aunt running the Wonder Nation State of N. Korea decides to break out the Kryton from that light reactor that Boy Bill tried to buy her off with !

Y.O.S.,

TAR BABY

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 10:20
STUDIO.R (@Emile Durkheim, classical French philosopher (1858-1917), one hundred years ago wrote.......) ID#288369:
Copyright © 1998 STUDIO.R/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: an invaluable text regarding suicide. His work, Suicide, published in 1897, explains the phenomenon in an understandable manner. I believe this period of time we now embark into will be greatly haunted by this social disease.
If you know a person who is withdrawing from society unto himself, a manic depressive, a person with serious disorders such as self starvation, it is your social duty to place a copy of this book in his or her hands. In addition, if you have a loved one that suffers, you should read Suicide also. By understanding the illness, affected humans may take specifically identified, pro-active steps to rid their souls of this demon.

There are real reasons, often changeable, for not being happy with oneself. And answers are available from Durkheim's work, to which many great minds have not been exposed.

Got Life? GO GOLDBUGS!!!

No living being, Durkheim began, can be happy unless its needs are sufficiently proportioned to its means; for if its needs surpass its capacity to satisfy them, the result can only be friction, pain, lack of productivity, and a general weakening of the impulse to live. In an animal, of course, the desired equilibrium between needs and means is established and maintained by physical nature -- the animal cannot imagine ends other than those implicit within its own physiology, and these are ordinarily satisfied by its purely material environment. Human needs, however, are not limited to the body alone; indeed, beyond the indispensable minimum which satisfies nature when instinctive, a more awakened reflection suggests better conditions, seemingly desirable ends craving fulfillment.30 But the aspirations suggested by such reflections are inherently unlimited there is nothing in man's individual psychology or physiology which would require them to cease at one point rather than another. Unlimited desires are, by definition, insatiable, and insatiability is a sure source of human misery: To pursue a goal which is by definition unattainable, Durkheim concluded, is to condemn oneself to a state of perpetual unhappiness.31

For human beings to be happy, therefore, their individual needs and aspirations must be constrained; and since these needs and aspirations are the products of a reflective social consciousness, the purely internal, physiological constraints enjoyed by animals are insufficient to this purpose. This regulatory function must thus be performed by an external, moral agency superior to the individual -- in other words, by society. And since the constraints thus applied are borne unequally by a society's members, the result is a functional theory of stratification resembling that of Kingsley Davis and Wilbert Moore32 -- society determines the respective value of different social services, the relative reward allocated to each, and the consequent degree of comfort appropriate to the average worker in each occupation.

This classically conservative doctrine is tempered by two qualifications. First, the scale of services and rewards is not immutable, but rather varies with the amount of collective revenue and the changing moral ideas of the society itself; and second, the system must secure some degree of legitimacy -- both the hierarchy of functions and the distribution of these functions among the population must be considered just by those subject to it. These caveats entered, however, Durkheim insisted that human happiness can be achieved only through the acceptance of moral ( that is, social ) constraints.

But what has this to do with suicide? Briefly, when society is disturbed by some crisis, its scale is altered and its members are reclassified33 accordingly; in the ensuing period of dis-equilibrium, society is temporarily incapable of exercising its regulative function, and the lack of constraints imposed on human aspirations makes happiness impossible. This explains why periods of economic disaster, like those of sudden prosperity, are accompanied by an increase the number of suicides, and also why countries long immersed in poverty have enjoyed a relative immunity to self-inflicted death.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 10:17
(more gold) ID#20779:: CAVUTO ON BUSINESS GREAT SHOW SUNDAY
MORNINGS FOX 9:00AM...GOLD STUCK CUZ OF LOVE AFFAIR OF INVESTORS WITH US BOND MARKET...ANYONE WITH THOUGHTS ON EURODOLLAR EFFECTING US BONDS?
MAYBE GOOD FOR THE GOLD I AM HOPING EURODOLLAR IS NOT ALREADY FIGURED IN THE MARKETEITHER WAY IM GONNA BUY MORE GOLD CUZ I GOTS TA HAVE IT!!!!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 10:10
newtron (Kapex, Don't forget the little stint that Nelson Aldrich Rockefellar played !) ID#388209:
Copyright © 1998 newtron/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Did't he die in office waiting for the Nixon Coo de ta ! ?

Was poor Jerry Ford the last stick in the woods or what ? His unsurpassed record of plain corny stupidity is only now being eclipsed by the enormous growing shadow of the intellectual wings of OWLGORE, that Giant Spotted Great Horney Toad from Harvard Yard !
Can you belive it Scotty, it may be a more strange new world to explore every morning, but there ain't no reason to suspect any intelligent life eminating from inside the Belt Way ! Damn it Scotty, stand by to beam me up! Bones is taking his last samples of grey matter & we think we may have found The King of their culture ! Thankya, ! Thank ya very much !

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 10:08
Old Soldier (Sharefin, Sun Aug 23 1998 02:51 dealing with city bad guys in Y2K) ID#185274:
Copyright © 1998 Old Soldier/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Several comments on your last about Y2K scenarios.

Over a period of nearly 30 years ending not too long ago, I was involved in training the youth of America and several other countries for war. My current business requires me to be armed every day and go into the central city where I occasionally encounter city toughs. I know well the skills, abilities and attitudes of young people. One of the clearest distinctions in my mind is the vast difference between youthful bragging, boasting, and bravado and their actual ability and performance in the skills of war. The boys that talk the most fight are usually the first to quit when the going gets even a little bit tough. By tough, I am not necessarily taking about deadly confrontations. Being a part of any organized fighting unit is extremely demanding mentally and physically.

Mentally, effective soldiering requires discipline. The formation of disciplined individuals and units takes months. Street gangs have a very loose organization of people still crazed with their machismo and individuality. They cannot function as effective units in any stressful situation.

Physically, effective soldiering requires a level of conditioning that allows the soldier to march many miles in heat or cold carrying heavy loads. Upon reaching the objective exhausted, the soldier must have the mental courage and physical stamina to push on in great exertion for the assault. Even a successful assault only brings more backbreaking work preparing to defend what has been gained against counter attack.

The above two paragraphs are only examples, effective soldiering requires many more types of mental and physical toughness.

One of the most important foot soldier skills is shooting. Effective shooting is almost a lost art in the modern world. City gang members do not know how to shoot effectively at all. Everything they have learned about shooting came from movies. They think they only have to point the weapon at their target and pull the trigger. Most have learned that incredibly stupid Hollywood maneuver of holding a pistol horizontal to fire. Just try holding a pistol horizontal and then look where it automatically points well away from the target. The grip to barrel angle of about 17 degrees is critical to effective marksmanship and only works right with the weapon held vertically.

Anyone needs to shoot at least 5,000 rounds of ammo to become marginally proficient with a handgun. Gang members will typically not fire more than 100 rounds in their life and none of that in a training situation.

Pistols are very popular but they are not very effective, even in skilled hands, compared to shotguns or rifles. It is an old joke that only a fool takes a knife to a gun fight. Similarly, only a fool takes a pistol to a shotgun or rifle fight. I will not expand on the pistol, shotgun, rifle, uses because it has been adequately covered by others here before.

Young toughs have far quicker reaction times that I. It is seldom of any value to them. Through my experience, I can see a bad situation coming well in advance. It is they who are in deep shock at having the gaping maw of a .45 pistol suddenly staring them in the face once they decide to make their move. I have never seen the street tough that does anything but grovel, piss himself, or run when confronted with overwhelming power and the prospect of his instant death. Even if you don�t get the drop on them, in close fights, their shooting is so poor that they don�t hit with their early shots. With the calibers I use and my skill, I only need one shot per bad guy.

I live in a wooded area. My obstacle and barrier plan will not allow punks to drive anywhere near me ( love my chain saws ) . In Vietnam I learned well how to set and avoid booby traps but the street toughs would be easy meat in my forest. In the unlikely event that they got to within 100 yards, they would encounter terrible obstacles that would impede their progress and allow leisurely picking off from well prepared positions. Gangs of untrained toughs melt in the face of injury and death of their fellows. They do not press an attack and even if they did, it would be futile.

I am an infantryman who has faced mass attack by trained soldiers. I won then and I will win in the future. I am not alone, I have some of my best subordinates from past adventures ready with me.

People who do not have an infantry background still have time to learn many useful skills. Grab your favorite old soldier combat infantry veteran and, while buying the beers, ask questions and listen. If you find a good one, he will tell you how fighting really goes. It is far different from the movies.

What if a few baddies with military experience get together? No problem. Anyone with experience would detect a prepared, defended, fortified position more quickly than the uninitiated and depart as quickly as possible. They want the easy pickings. Only fools attack a fortified position with out heavy, and in Y2K unavailable, support.

Lastly, I do not see the city itself scenario the way you do. I think things in central cities will get very deadly very fast and not be restored to order for a long time. Alas, I am too long in this and my city scenario shall wait for another time.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 09:58
kapex (Wag the Dog: that movie is sure being rented a lot lately.) ID#218221:: Do you believe Hollywoods arogane to think that they have such control over the people in this country that they can control us and events. These guys and their ( lack of ) credibility need to go down as hard as Clintler.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 09:57
Tantalus__A (kapex - thanks. Like I said before-) ID#374204:: I've a good memeory, but it's very short. Destroyed those brain cells in
summer of'82.

It seems current events and politics can alter this orderly succession.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 09:51
kapex (AGNEW resigned: Nixon selected Ford, then Nixon resigned.) ID#218221:: .

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 09:51
Leland (THE AMERICAN SPECTATOR - Enemy of the Week) ID#316193:: http://www.spectator.org/exclusives/98-08-19_enemy.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 09:44
Tantalus__A (Oder of Succession to the Presidency) ID#374204:: Panda provided me some interesting info here recently, but I'm not sure
it got thru my thick skull.

When Nixon got the boot, so did Agnew - for other reasons. Where did
Gerald Ford come from. Was he Speaker of the House?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 09:41
Suspicious (I don't think we'll have to wait long for) ID#287312:: Bin Laden's response. I just hope he has no suitcase nukes.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 09:38
Tantalus__A (Hmmm - Tequila Sunrise, and maybe play some blues 4 beleagered goldbugs) ID#374204:
Copyright © 1998 Tantalus__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Hard luck and trouble
been my only freind,
I been on my own
since I was ten.

I cain't read,
I din't learn how ta write.
Mah whole life has been
one big fight.

Ya know wine and women
is all I crave.
A big red woman gonna carry me
to my grave.

Born under a bad sign,
been down since I began to crawl.
If it wasn't for bad luck
I wouldn't have no luck at all.

Ya know I'm a bad luck boy. Been havin' bad luck all of my days.
( that aint no lie! ) Albert King - Oh Yeah!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 09:25
Tantalus__A (tolerant1-Now watching that same sun perform a Tequila Sunrise on west coast) ID#374204:: A good breakfast to all moms on which it's glory shines.

Texans, enjoy the rain. Hope it's not too much at once.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 09:17
Leland (James Kelleher - New Pessimists Debate: Is it 1929 All Over Again?) ID#316193:: http://www.nypostonline.com/business/4939.htm

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 09:01
newtron (T #1) ID#388209:: Tarzan leave escarpment. Go New York City ! Tarzan scizcfrentic bout New York City. Many strange tribes with stupid rituals !

Hey, T # 1 ! Make mine Eggs Ranchero with plenty of Tobasco & Green Chiles & Ham & ( HERES THE ONLY IMPORTANT PART ) Copious Shooters of 100% pure agave all around !

Give me best to Mum.

Here's Nemaste in your eye !

Don't forget to save the males & prey for whirled peas !

Love On Ya,

Y.O.S.,

TAR BABY

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 08:08
JIN (Asia crisis review!Great site...!) ID#206358:: try it: http://www.stern.nyu.edu/~nroubini/asia/AsiaHomepage.html#policy

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 08:03
Mr. Mick (Squirrel, tell me how you posted that jpeg, please...................) ID#345321:: did you follow the procedure at the bottom of the posting page? Good morning Tol1!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 06:38
tolerant1 (Leo Kottke playing...cut 13 on the yellow disc...about to make breakfast for me Mumm) ID#373284:: as this may be the first post of any day...thanks to Bill in OR for the Salmon...glad you got home safe and sound with your Lady...and remember folks...walk...palms up and ask of the clouds what good you can do for the world today...and the smile of a child shall be your reward...truly...Namaste'

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 05:53
tolerant1 (kindness is the way....to each and and all...palms up...on the lawn...) ID#373284:: Truncated discourse is convivial�yet remains worthless�and so, not like a button, I tether myself to the Sun as it rises over the Island that is Long�so very precious are these moments�the Swans flutter, boats come and go and I wish all in the world�well�within the grip that is me�all that is me serves and provides the best I can during this madness called a life�no more fond memory could be mine than to bring a smile to you, yours and the world around you�

All that is me wishes comfort for all of you�Namaste�

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 05:29
Greenstone Gold__A (John Disney......) ID#427265:: John Disney

Bernstein had deep throat
Drudge has Big Cigar

Question is : was it HOT sex, or was she just smoking it at the time ?

Aye,

Haggis

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 05:25
Flash Gordon__A (equities) ID#284281:: morning all

Garzarelli says time to buy
Analyst dismisses flat earnings and Asian crisis, says correction is over
http://www.cnnfn.com/markets/9808/07/garzarelli_intv/

more *fun* at:
http://www.cnnfn.com/specials/quickendow/

thanks
d:o )

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 04:57
tolerant1 (aurator, Namaste' and a huge gulp to ya from the Island that is Long...a dollar has no) ID#373284:: value...it's lack of worth is based on the lies of others...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 04:53
aurator () ID#255284:: Nicodemus
Eggsacktly. It is because the dollar is not a unit of measurement that it also cannot be money.

The dollar cannot be a unit of account because a dollar ( today, t, ) does not equal a dollar tomorrow ( t+1 )

nytol�Teddo.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 04:51
tolerant1 (the Star Chamber, nothing definitive yet, still doing the research, prerogative court) ID#373284:: going back at least to the reign of Edward III, 1327-77 and abolished by some clowns calling themselves Parliament, 1647...I shall get to the bottom of this...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 04:38
tolerant1 (and while the world goes nutz...celebrated a Birthday with a friend...a privielge...) ID#373284:
Copyright © 1998 tolerant1/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: truly...the town of Huntington sends its wishes and blessings...my faith is renewed...I spoke with people of all beliefs...we laughed, we cried...but we made sure the children had ice cream...

one fella from Pakistan, another from India, up the street...Italians, Chinese lady gave me some flowers...oh heck.... the list goes on, you catch the drift...

Let us learn to live together with our differences...oh yeah...saw a three month old...kickin hat...uh huh...anyway...his message...adults are silly...we sat...I bought him an ice cream cone...I learned alot from those yittle eyes...

I have zero desire to harm anyone...zero desire...oh no...nurture, nurture, Ms. Angela Stern is singing�life is good at Cuervo Central�

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 04:38
aurator (Has he a sweet tooth? Is he on a diet? Don't he like candy?) ID#255284:: crusty

So kind! to keep mum over the score. But I too have called a game hereabouts.

I do like the irony you point out in clinton being hoisted by his own blue-beret-ed petard. He bombed the crap out of a confectionary factory, according to one story. Wonder what they made? Mars bars?

Question is: Are they bad enough to hang for?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 04:36
Nicodemus (Hello Aurator, Squirrel.....) ID#335379:
Copyright © 1998 Nicodemus/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Aurator, in principal we agree, They did change the length of the year not the day.
and they change the value of US dollars daily. They do this on paper like everything else. You are correct that they cannot actualy change a grain weight.
But they can attempt to lie about it as they do in most value related issues.

Squirrel, friend, do not dispair the contingencies, plan to flee as well as fight. To flee to return on another day when the plan and odds are in your favor is not cowardice but wisdom.
Don't forget that in other places people have learned to cope within a poorly run country. Hey the cash crop output of old Soviet appartment window boxes exceeded the gubmint farm production by 300%! :- ) not bad for the home spun...
Sure feels good to have one more debt gone!!!!

Don't forget that just because we're paranoid, doen't mean thier not out toget us!}:- )
Nicodemus

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 04:07
John Disney__A (Please note ..) ID#24135:: with respect for possible overnight
tape recorder viewers ..

I have not mentioned the rugby match
between the Aussies and the Boks.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 04:05
John Disney__A (I can go on and on ..) ID#24135:: Bernstein had deep throat
Drudge has Big Cigar

shall I stop now

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 04:03
John Disney__A (Bubble bubble toil and trouble ..) ID#24135:: the crones speak ..

for McClinton shall reign ..

till woman mates with tobacco
and asperins explode in the Sudan ..

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 03:57
John Disney__A (Hoist by your own NWO) ID#24135:
Copyright © 1998 John Disney__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: If you recall, the UN passed legislation regarding
the pursuit apprehension and sentencing of war
criminals.
Im sure Clinton would have approved of this personally
even though the US opposed it before caving in.
The new UN crap was supposedly aimed at the Serbian
leaders like Slobberon Mylousyabitch ( ) .
Now lets just suppose that blasting that asperin
plant in Khartoum to bits was a screwup ( I have a
feeling that it was ) .. and that it can be proven ..
and thats possible .. and that in view of circumstances
surrounding the cruise launch .. WJC HIMSELF rather
that the USA can be held responsible ..
He could perhaps be extradited from the US and spend
the rest of his days in a place like Spandau .. hoist
by his own UN. I love it.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 03:19
Envy (Blasphemy) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Hieronimus: I understand from conversations with Chris Bird that some very limited success was attained at transmuting some elements into gold. Would you please review that scenario, and why you ceased research into that area.

Bockris: Yes. Well, we were approached by some people who claimed they had a technique for doing this. [Telander and Champion; the method is classic thermal alchemy.] They wanted us to try it out. We of course started off by telling them that they themselves mustn't be in the laboratory and only our own people could do it. So I had two postdocs and a graduate student try this process out. And indeed, in very small quantities, around 100 parts per million, we got four consecutive experiments which did give - seemed to give, to all intents and purposes - the transmutation of small amounts of lead and mercury into gold, ruthenium, osmium, etcetera. However, when we went on with this, later, we couldn't reproduce it, so we had to withdraw. But I'm fully convinced that in the four experiments that we made we were producing these small amounts. Since then, numerous people have done similar things, but usually with other metals.

http://www.flybyte.com/hieronimus/zeropoint.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 03:09
aurator (Dinars) ID#255284:: tsclaw
You have a very good idea! Perhaps we can encourage The Islamic Mint to talk on this board. There is a common ground as many here believe in the honesty of gold. And the dishonesty of paper. Perhaps commerce in gold could bridge the gap?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 02:57
tsclaw (Gold Coins) ID#327123:: I guess our chances of acquiring any of the gold Dinar's from the Islamic Mint have gone down considerably.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 02:54
Envy (Today) ID#219363:: On this, the twenty third day of August, in the year of our Lord thirteen hundred and five - William Wallace ( made famous by the Hollywood movie Braveheart ) was being hung, drawn and quartered.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 02:51
sharefin (Old Soldier) ID#284255:
Copyright © 1998 sharefin/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I'm not so sure.
It's a bit hard to forcast what will happen.

I think the author was presenting an interesting concept.
Obviously it will vary from city to city.
And be very dependant on size of the city.

But I do think that it will be in the cities, where there will be a concerted effort to restore stability first.
Martial law and vigilanties will be the strength of small towns and cities.
The hoods and crims who currently lurk there, will feel the wrath of these groups, if they step out of line.
Their stomping grounds, will now become unsafe for them.
Their pecking order of dominence, will be thrown awry.
They would seek easier pickings, where they can revert to their normal order.
Perhaps this will be the country side?
I would guess so - except in the big cities.

As to your ability to pick them off one by one - I don't realy feel qualified to answer.
But my guess is that you would take down a few at first but not all.
End of story.

You have to remember that these people live off their wits in tough situations.
Their levels of co-ordination, speed and reaction time would be very good.
They have to be quick thinking and fast on their feet to survive amongst the gangs.
Their levels of ability are constantly honed, as they work their way up through their pecking order.

As I said you might get a few but that would be all.

Ever watched a 14 y/o play on a pinball machine.
Try and take them on for speed and concentration.
Then give them 10 years in the street gang lifestyle.
Some of these dudes must be formidable.

But then I've met a few good farmers, who could pick off dingoes at a few hundred yards.
I don't really know, but I do guess that some of these unsavory types, would be pretty good at coming out on top.

Then you could also picture these people, who are fleeing the cities, where they have led such a sheltered lifstyle.
They would not be up to scratch with your levels of defence and make easy targets.

The story is only someones conjecture but could perhaps become some peoples reality if it ever got that bad.

I thought it worth a read.
Namaste.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 02:38
aurator (Nonsense man! They couldn't hit a thing at this dist......) ID#255284:: What is the internet in time of war?

The first casualty of war is truth.

The internet as sword? The internet as shield?

Electronic weaponry? or electronic livingry? the choice is ours.

standing on tippy toes looking over the trench...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 02:17
Envy (Who needs Y2K ...) ID#219363:: Gopher Cuts U.S. West Phone Service

PORTALES, N.M. ( AP ) -- A gopher apparently chewed through a fiber optic cable Saturday, cutting 911 and long distance phone service to about 6,800 U.S. West customers here.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpne0c.htm

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 02:10
Envy (Report: Bin Laden vows retaliation) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: ISLAMABAD, Pakistan ( Reuters ) -- Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden has vowed retaliation against the United States after missile strikes on his operations in Afghanistan, a Pakistani newspaper reported on Saturday. English-language daily The News reported that bin Laden, in a message read by his Egyptian ally Ayman al-Zawahiri, said: The war has just started and the Americans should wait for an answer. Tell the Americans that we aren't afraid of bombardment, threats and acts of aggression. We suffered and survived Soviet bombings for 10 years in Afghanistan and we are ready for more sacrifices, Zawahiri said by a satellite telephone.

http://cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9808/22/bin.laden.revenge.reut/

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 02:04
Grizz (A haunting experience related by Gianni Dioro's 05:59 post yesterday) ID#424394:
Copyright © 1998 Grizz/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: I remember when the Kobe earthquake happened because a worried Japanese girl got up and left our class to call home.

This verifies my post of Thu Aug 13 1998 23:44 about a feeling of impending doom. Though in this case in may have been telepathy. I know when I was in the military - the day, perhaps even the moment, that I made the decision that I was coming home on leave - my mom told me that my longtime pet dog would start running to the door, then back to the living room for a while and later back to the door - expecting me to arrive. My mom knew I was coming home - long before I told her by phone.

P.S. Crazytimes - I do not mean to squash humor here - we will need it, perhaps badly. Keep on posting as you do. You know what is appropriate.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:51
crazytimes (@ Grizz) ID#342376:: Agreed, my last post was tasteless. Apologies to all. I'm reminded of something Mozel once said, This is too serious to be serious about That's how I feel sometimes.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:47
Grizz (sorry guys & gals) ID#424394:: That's what happens for not moving the mouse off the submit button right away. One errant second click - a muscle spasm if you will.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:45
Grizz (Marshall - I assume your post about DEFCOM 2 is true and accurate) ID#424394:
Copyright © 1998 Grizz/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Please to other posters
who are tempted to post fictional headlines, etc.
humorous they may be - but please tell us they are fictional.

Conditions around the world are getting too deadly serious
for somebody to have fun with a post about nuclear weapons launches.
Remember -
this site is watched by others and our posts reposted elsewhere.

Last winter I had a local joker
( who also closely watches military and political events )
call me one evening to tell me that DEFCON 3 was in effect,
that he would be picking me up in his truck in 45 minutes,
that I should pack up what supplies we would need and be ready
and we would be going to the cave we had scouted last summer.
He had me by the short hairs for several minutes.
I could've strangled the slimeball!
It was NOT funny.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:45
Grizz (Marshall - I assume your post about DEFCOM 2 is true and accurate) ID#424394:
Copyright © 1998 Grizz/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Please to other posters
who are tempted to post fictional headlines, etc.
humorous they may be - but please tell us they are fictional.

Conditions around the world are getting too deadly serious
for somebody to have fun with a post about nuclear weapons launches.
Remember -
this site is watched by others and our posts reposted elsewhere.

Last winter I had a local joker
( who also closely watches military and political events )
call me one evening to tell me that DEFCON 3 was in effect,
that he would be picking me up in his truck in 45 minutes,
that I should pack up what supplies we would need and be ready
and we would be going to the cave we had scouted last summer.
He had me by the short hairs for several minutes.
I could've strangled the slimeball!
It was NOT funny.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:42
Old Soldier (Sharefin, No, it could not be true) ID#185274:
Copyright © 1998 Old Soldier/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: That post is from someone in the terminal stages of denial. He has finally come to grips with the fact of the horror that Y2K will bring but he is still in denial that it means he should leave his beloved city. Give him a little more time and he will finally come to the conclusion that he must abandon the city.

The silliest part concerns hardened bands of former city slickers facing highly accurate lead from guys like me. Give me a break. They want no part of it and have no idea how to cope with it. Sombody has been watching too many Mad Max movies. The dregs finally fleeing the cities do not suddenly metamorphose into competent military units. Ludicrous. simply ludicrous.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:40
aurophile (@grizz) ID#201109:: I have said far too much, but the reviewers are probably asleep. Cheers and happy hotlanta!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:35
aurophile (@Grizz) ID#201109:: Love to see Ole Strom kicking you know what, but it's algore and di-fi by a nose. Di is waaaay kewl, so don't be worried.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:31
Grizz (Order of Succession to the Presidency) ID#424394:
Copyright © 1998 Grizz/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Vice President - Al Gore
Speaker of the House of Representatives - Newt Gingrich
President Pro Tempore of the Senate - Strom Thurmond
Secretary of State - Madeleine Albright - Czech born thus disqualified
Secretary of Treasury - Robert Rubin
Secretary of Defense - William Cohen
Attorney General - Janet Reno - good gawd what a nightmare!
Secretary of Interior - Bruce Babbit
Secretary of Agriculture - Richard Rominger
Secretary of Commerce - William Daley
Secretary of Labor - Alexis Herman - please find somebody else!
Secretary of Health & Human Services - Donna Shalala
Secretary of Housing & Urban Development - Andrew Cuomo
Secretary of Transportation - Rodney Slater
Secretary of Energy - Federico Pe�a - look what he did to Denver!
Secretary of Education - Richard W. Riley
Secretary of Veterans Affairs - vacant? - no surprise with draft dodger

P.S. above info from the 1998 World Almanac so recent replacements
may not be shown. ( I know there are web sources but the Almanac is fast! )

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:30
Hedgehog (Kofi, Where are you when we need you?) ID#39857:: Oh yeah, thats right, US got you in an arm lock, Fig4 leg lock,
full nelson and a spuirrel grip. And besides they owe you a bag
full of gold. Think Id rather be smoken pipes with Osama bin
Laden than scummed on cigars with President Errogenous Zone
I've got a Hard On while I talk to you Gotta Empty my Bags
Spurt Spurt Spurt Now What Was That? Clinton.
Autobiography by Bill Clinton,
Scumbags by the President

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:26
aurophile (in any event) ID#201109:: we have had a gentle military/intelligence coup d'etat to achieve some goals which have long been on the agenda. in this way we allow klintone to resign with a modicum of sympathy for a love life gone bad and the modest aura of a terrrorism fighter. thus we spare the country the drug and treason charges which would be dyspeptic to the nth degree. long live algore and di-fi!!!!

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:24
crazytimes (Holy Helen of Troy Batman!) ID#342376:: If this cigar story is about to break, then I wouldn't put anything past Clinton. He'd need a war to divert that story. Wars have been fought over women before, just not like this. BTW, do I have a good moniker or what?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:22
Marshall (Intelligence Source (envy)) ID#293211:: Source is found at The intelligence Service at
http://harvest-trust.org/

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:22
sharefin (Email chatter - could this be so?) ID#284255:
Copyright © 1998 sharefin/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: As I sat here taking a break from some Year 2000 preparations, I have to
wonder if those who are leaving the cities and building their Year 2000
retreats have any understanding of what they would face in the event of a total collapse. The issue of self-sufficiency is a grand idea and appeals to my baser feelings to leave the rat-race behind.

I realize that on the surface, a retreat away from the city may reduce one's exposure to the initial chaos that will result from major Year 2000 problems. The end result will probably be quite different. If the situation arises that results in riots and mass starvation in the city, does anyone really believe this won't spill over to the country retreats many are in the process of building.

After the initial riots and runs on food sources in the cities, lawful order
will be restored in a relatively short period of time. The cities will be
the ones to receive aid in the forms of food and water first. In addition,
every effort will be made to restore power and other utilities in the cities
first and elsewhere as available. The industrial base in the United States
is located in the metropolitan areas. This industrial base has to be
protected and restored at the earliest possible date and all efforts will be
focused in this regard.

After law and order is restored, no doubt in some areas by martial law, the
people responsible for the chaos in the cities will be driven out. Where do you think they are going to go? As they filter out through the countryside, any isolated farms or so-called retreats are going to be their opportunity of choice. If the individuals organize into strong groups of marauders, it would take a concerted effort by a relatively large force to repel these invaders. Since most of the military will be concerned with maintaining order and support in the cities, countryside patrols will be few and far between. There won't be anyone to respond to these attacks on isolated locations. There is no way that a few untrained people can take on and defeat a determined group of 25 or more hardened criminal element. You don't barter with these people. They will be quite willing to shoot you on site to gain access to the supplies they need to continue their evasion of capture. We are talking about an element that is not afraid to carry fully automatic firearms and TNT. They will probably be strong enough to take on military patrols and may even be armed with weapons out of armories or stolen form military patrols. They will not give a second thought to killing someone for what they need or to cover their tracks. It will take a concerted effort to track these people down and may take several months to do so.

These groups will move to the roughest most isolated places they can find to evade capture. That means anyone in their path is in for some serious trouble. These groups will not be afraid to use women and children as human shields during assaults and prey on the decent individuals reluctance to fire on such shields. Could you do so? You will have to be prepared to do so and maybe even worse things.

Contrary to popular belief, the cities will be the most effective in their
battles to eliminate these individuals from their area. It would take some
massive groups of these people to attack and control neighborhoods that contain thousands. A lot more individuals in the cities may join the ranks of the deceased, but percentage view, it will be small compared to those in the rural areas.

Depending on terrain, you can easily travel 10 to 15 miles a day by walking, 30 or more miles by horseback, and 100 or more by bicycle. There will be adequate fuel to travel to almost anywhere within a 300 mile radius ( one tank full of gas ) .This puts every individual in harms way.

Unless you intend to live in armed compounds, there is no way a family is
going to survive on its own when the rural assault begins. You may have
twenty or thirty neighbors within a ten mile radius, but the action will be
over when they arrive, if they are not ambushed on the way.

On person skilled in the arts of warfare can easily defeat a group of ten
who are not prepared to repel such invaders and deal with them on equal ground.

Again, I will express my desire to join with those who are building retreats
and preparing to become self-sustaining in the old ways. I think this whole country could benefit from such efforts if we could work into it gradually, but it isn't going to happen. The American people are too fond of their technology. It has become almost effortless to live today. You work in a controlled environment, travel great distances in comfort, go home to a nice environment controlled dwelling, and eat store bought food you peal the wrapper from. WE will find some way to continue this way of life.

I believe a large part of the movement to leave the cities for these
retreats is the frustration people feel at losing control of their lives to
those in positions of superior power. WE all want to be free at heart and
don't want to be tightly governed. We own this country and we could take it back if we wanted to. I don't think the desire to endure the hardships is there to do so.

Stock food, water, heat sources, cash, weapons, ammunition and other
necessities, it may come in handy for a variety of earth events or weather
related needs. It will almost certainly be needed for some areas in Year
2000 related instances. It would be much better to put the $30k to $100k you will spend on building your retreat into community preparation. Don't abandon the cities and think you will be safe. The rule still applies,
there is safety in numbers. Give it some serious thought.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:20
El Borak__A (Selby) ID#173274:: I think you're correct about the Speaker becoming president, but I doubt seriously if the Democrats would impeach knowing Newt was next in line ( and the Senate need 2/3 to convict, so some will have to vote for removal ) .

Well, good night, it has been a wonderful evening, but now I must go. I thank you gentlemen ( gentlepeople? ) for the stimulating conversation.

Copyright 1998 El Borak, inc. Makers of quality hair pins, hot cross buns, and Uglo-American ( tm ) brand hockey masks.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:20
Envy (@Aurophile) ID#219363:

Yeah, don't let the name throw you *grin*. I was signing up for Kitco the evening after my motorcycle was stolen and I wasn't in the best of moods at the time.

This is my last post for a little while ( hopefully ) , I'm scanning down the page and seeing my own name too much, which tells me I'm running my mouth and need to shut it. *smile*

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:17
aurophile (Envy) ID#201109:: Your name says otherwise, but I believe you somehow.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:15
Envy (@Aurophile) ID#219363:: No way guy - I'm 29, don't blame him on us.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:14
aurophile (Seelby) ID#201109:: Not to worry, the US is a media-driven, hysterical society. Give us a few gins or whatever and all will be well. Our younger citizens think Klintone is kewl. If not for the lies and the intelligence gaffes/treason engendered by same, I'd most likely agree.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:13
Envy (@Marshall) ID#219363:: What's your source for all that ?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:10
Marshall (War in Middle East is IMMINET) ID#293211:: All US forces in Europe,Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean are on
DEFCON 2 ( War Immient ) . Israeli forces on full war alert. Us National
guard is asking for volunteers for immediate middle east Deployment.
All leaves and passes cancelled for US Military in Europe are Cancelled.
Serveral US Naval Vessels dirverted from port.
All Patriot missile sites in Europe on full alert. War is Immient
Saddam look out. At first release of Bio or chem agent bagdags
weather forcast will be partly cloudy and 32,000 degrees.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:08
Envy (@Dave) ID#219363:: Thank you for Secretary of State, thank you. *grin*

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/Aficionado/

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:08
Marshall (War in Middle East is IMMINET) ID#293211:: All US forces in Europe,Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean are on
DEFCON 2 ( War Immient ) . Israeli forces on full war alert. Us National
guard is asking for volunteers for immediate middle east Deployment.
All leaves and passes cancelled for US Military in Europe are Cancelled.
Serveral US Naval Vessels dirverted from port.
All Patriot missile sites in Europe on full alert. War is Immient
Saddam look out. At first release of Bio or chem agent bagdags
weather forcast will be partly cloudy and 32,000 degrees.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:06
Selby () ID#286230:: I can't think of anything like the cigar story that has hit the news--or might-- since the hand holding and praying of Nixon and Kissinger.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:04
Selby (El Borak) ID#286230:: I was thinking of serial impeachment once they look into campaign financial matters. As I recall my last studies of US history --about 40 years ago--it is the Speaker of the House of Reps--but I could be wrong.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 01:01
Selby (An entertaining load of sarcasm for Bill) ID#286230:: http://www.spectator.org/ret/98-08-21.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:55
El Borak__A (Selby - President Gephardt) ID#173274:: Since it is doubtful that Bill and Al would be impeached together, Al would probably at some point become President. Last time I checked, Nelson Rockefeller was not available, so Al would be wise to pick whomever would be his most likely ( major ) opponent in the 2000 Democratic primaries. I'd peg that as Richard Gephardt of Missouri, who ran against Al in 1988. Wow, can you say Smoot-Hawley? I knew you could...

Copyright 1998 El Borak, inc. Makers of quality bass lures, bird cage lining, and counterfeit Canadian dollars.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:55
Dave (@try secretary of) ID#261155:: State silly.......

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:52
Envy (Shelby = Selby, sorry bout that.) ID#219363:

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:51
Envy (@Shelby) ID#219363:: I forget that part of my childhood history classes - speaker maybe ?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:50
Selby (Who) ID#286230:: takes over if Bill and Al have to go?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:48
Gollum (I guess I'll wait for the videos) ID#43349:

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:46
Gollum (@El Borak__A ) ID#43349:: So this was something Monica talked to Linda about. Wierd.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:42
AKAU (Auger) ID#256217:
Copyright © 1998 AKAU/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: Regarding Auger's counts, I admit he has called the past few months very well, but be careful not to put too much faith in Elliott counts at extreme points. Wave 3's become Wave 5's after the fact. In June 95, Auger called for an XAU of 180 when it was 150 and continued to call for that level down to 130. I remember because I gave up some profits at that time by waiting for the 180 level with him.

Personally, I think gold has neared bottom, but this next rally in the Dow will be critical for gold stocks. If the gold stocks are to decouple and become a visible, alternative investment to the boomers, the gold stocks and gold will need to rally as well. If there is no momentum at the top, they will fall with the rest and won't rally until after the crash regardless what happens to gold. In the 1987 crash, gold increased 2% on Oct 19 then fell 3% on Oct 20, but the XAU fell from 131.47 on Oct 16 to 117.37 on Oct 19 to 96.07 on Oct 20, a total decline of 27%. With the popularity of S&P index funds which include a number of large cap gold stocks, portfolio managers won't hesitate to rebalance with the out-of-favor gold sector, especially if they are still considered weak performers. In this case, the impact to gold stocks may be greater than 1987 and achieve Mr. Auger's level during a crash scenario. It would be interesting to see the count Mr. Auger would assign to gold at this time.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:41
El Borak__A (gollum - Tapes) ID#173274:: The tapes made by Linda Tripp. I don't know how HE heard them, but I keep searching the web for the RealAudio version of them. What _I_ want to know is, who's got time to listen to Monica whine for 20 hours?

Copyright 1998 El Borak, inc., makers of fine audio equiptment, pirate videos of Dudley Dooright, and Stain of the Union ( tm ) brand cleaning products.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:41
Selby (Gollum) ID#286230:: Tripps tapes of the Monica Chronicles.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:39
Envy (@Gollum) ID#219363:: I don't know, guy. Whatever. It had better not be true, I mean, I don't even know what I mean, but I'd have to see a reliable source, if I wanted to see it, I'm not sure. Man. That's like seriously, I dunno, if it's even true, I don't even what to think it might be. Let's just say it does not approximate the norm, hell, that doesn't even intersect the norm, that's just way out there somewhere.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:38
Squirrel (If it were Gold it would weigh only 3 grains) ID#280214:
Copyright © 1998 Squirrel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: The tiniest coin at the bottom of the photo in my previous post.
3 Grains of Gold is about the same value as one ream of copy paper.

The miniature quarter - if it was Gold - would be about 15 grains.
15 Grains of Gold is about the same bullion value as 25 lbs of sugar.
hopefully the coin would trade for more than that and not be melted.
We would hope a 10-grain coin would trade at a high enough premium
to make its value equal to that 25 lb bag of sugar.

Compared to common coinage - these would be inconveniently small.
BUT compared to weighing out Gold filings or .9999 grain for change
Gold coins this size would be fast and accurate to use.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:34
Gollum (@El Borak__A ) ID#43349:: Tapes? There were tapes? What tapes?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:32
El Borak__A (gollum - Drudge) ID#173274:: Drudge stated in his speech to the National Press Club ( text and RealAudio available at his site ) that he had heard some of the tapes, and when they came out, Americans would be disgusted by what was on them. Perhaps he's doing a little leaking here on his own...I don't know...if _I_ were Monica, it'd be a cold day in h-e-double hockeysticks before I told THAT to a room full of strangers.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:26
Gollum (@Envy ) ID#43349:: I dunno. One thing kind of strange about Drudge's text is where he says it is not clear as to whether Ms. Lewinski testified on this matter to the grand jury. Well, then where did the story come from? One presumes Only she and Mr. C would be privy to the scene. One presumes...

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:24
James (EJ@Your 11:03 re: 500,000 Iraquis killed in the Gulf Massacre. What is not) ID#252150:: widely known is that 400,000 were killed while they were trying to surrender. They were waving white flags everywhere & the brave allies, mostly U.S., just mowed them down. Noam Chomsky called it the most cowardly war in history & for good reason. On top of Viet Nahm I think that atrocity changed the character of the U.S. forever & they will be dealt with harshly by future historians. Ignorance is no defense.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:23
Squirrel (I think the image of the miniature coins aborted halfway through) ID#280214:: Here it is again - under a different name ( the 2nd load went fine )

Note the metric ruler at the bottom of the photo.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:22
sharefin (Cherokee) ID#284255:: Here is a Y2k test that is free and has a good recomendation.
http://www.zdnet.com/vlabs/y2k/testy2k.html

You actually test your PC over the net.
No software to download or run.

Pretty neat.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:20
Envy (Ummm) ID#219363:: Is this Drudge thing for real ? Or he just jerkin.err, fooling around.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:18
sharefin (Yardini's 500 day conference - real audio) ID#284255:: http://www.yardeni.com/y2kconf1.html

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:18
Gollum (@grant ) ID#43349:: Chances are good Monday will be an inverted Friday.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:16
Gollum (@El Borak__A ) ID#43349:: Bar Sinister is an old heraldric term meanimg bastard. It referred to the direction the band was painted across the sheild of a knight of illegitimate pedigree. And of course, Underdogs nemesis waa a real ....

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:15
James (Bin Laden@Reminds me of a stoned Frank Zappa. But I have much more ) ID#252150:: respect for him than clitton. At least he believes in something besides sex, personal aggrandizement & material things. Clitton is a pathetic, souless robot & epitomizes everything sick & wrong with America.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:13
Gollum (1929 Fah!!) ID#43349:: It wasn't the 1929 crash that was so bad. It was the sucker rally and the BIG bear market of 1930 that killed the market and put the US into its great depression. 1929 was just a pimple:

http://www.lowrisk.com/image/29crash.gif

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:09
Squirrel (Teeny Tiny Coins weighing only a few grains) ID#280214:: First time I tried this so I hope it works for those who click it.
Here is a scan of some very tiny reproductions of US coins.
The tiniest one is 6mm and only about 1.5 grains.
I just bought them - the storeowner knows not who manufacturers them.
Though he will look into it ( but merchants are protective of such info )
If anyone knows where these things are made please let us know.
Are they hand-stamped by peasants or are they really minted?

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:09
cherokee (@....software&y2k compliance) ID#288229:: if you want to test the y2k compliance of your home or lap-top
pc....try nut&bolts software....it does a whole lot more too....worth
the 32cellulose paper towels paid for it....

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:07
grant (Mister Knowitall) ID#432221:: Monday will be a very interesting ride.
gb

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:00
El Borak__A (gollum - Just who is Simon bar Sinister?) ID#173274:: I don't have a clue ( oh, there's something new ) . Pray, please enlighten me.

Date: Sun Aug 23 1998 00:00
sharefin (Earl ) ID#284255:
Copyright © 1998 sharefin/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved: China: 9 Million Noncompliant Computers
http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/2372

Hong Kong: 98% of Smaller Business Haven't Heard
http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/2379

This site has been very Clintonesque of late - yes?

The grim reality of the coming times
Brings more to mind than BC's sexual shenanigans.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nuclear Power Industry Is at the Assessment Stage
http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/2377

Y2K Repairman Paints a Bleak Picture
http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/2369

$2,650 in Currency Per Household by Late 1999
http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/2367

There Is No Leadership, Warns Yardeni

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