My best argument is that they had hundreds of thousands of years to do this if they wanted to. Why wait?

There are other disturbing possibilities like we might not be smart enough-yet. But why be discrete? They could just put us in pens and engineer whatever they wanted. Another possibility is that we are a grand experiment, like an aquarium. I hope they are better at it than I was with those guppies.

The best argument is they have left us alone -- no idealism needed. Amazing, isn't it? Perhaps there are 'friendly' aliens out there after all.

Which great British astronomer said, The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, but is stranger than we CAN imagine?

There a LOTS or really clever, super smart guys working on reconcilling relativity with quantum theory, but the mathematics is horrendous and they keep coming up with lots of infinity values All results thus far have been less than satisfactory. Then there's string theory and ten and even twenty- four dimension concepts that really boggle my mind. But they will keep trying. What we need is a REAL, honest to goodness genius to come along. The kind I'm talking about comes along about once in a century, they say. Gauss, Newton, Einstein; someone of that caliber. Maybe, then.

No offense, but I find that statement as ludicrous as the statement that the earth is the center of the universe. The is no way that humans could be the center of the living universe. The universie is just to big for that. I would suggest reading Carl Sagan's book 'Small blue planet'. I have never read a stronger argument, readily accessible to all, infavor of life elsewhere in the Universe. Cleverly disquised, though, as Carl Sagan worked for the US government and always emphatically denied extraterrestrial life. I never figured out how he got 'Contact' out.

I will argue differently. I say they are already here, and have been for at least hundreds of thousands of years. If intelligent, interstellar life exists in this universe, it has very likely existed somewhere for millions of years. If so, we have been visited many times, and either the memory of it has been lost, or the visitors want to be discrete. Did you know that unsual craft sightings are far more common in certain countries such as Mexico, and other South American countries? American sightings are ridiculed very strongly. However, I have a book written by NASA engineer Paul Hill on my desk titled 'Unconventional Flying objects' with a foreward by Edgar Mitchell -- the Apollo 14 astronaut, who said in a foreward for the book:

'Paul Hill has done a masterful job ferreting out the basic science and technology behind the elusive UFO characteristics...., Perhaps this book will help bring solid consideration for making all that is known about extraterrestrial craft publically available.' It all began when Paul Hill saw a UFO himself.

aurator: Why should they bother answering our pleas for communication in our SETI project, etc, if they are already here? Whoever the visitors are probably know as much about us as we do. Imagine the listening devices they must have! It would put our NSA to shame.

One question I have never been able to understand is there is a major discrepancy between the diversity of the human genome, and our apparent species evolutionary stability. Given the low mutation rate that we are currently showing, why is there so much genetic diversity, and so much apparently silent DNA? We apparently do not need it.

I have a disturbing answer -- and that is that our baseline genetic code is adapted to a much higher mutation rate than out current one -- hence out species environmental stress level is usually much higher than it is now. That would fit with the drop in cosmic rays around 1700 AD or so, and the explosion of our population since that time. The alternative -- that we have already been genetically engineered -- is unlikely, but cannot be ruled out completely.

On genetic engineering -- I know nature can do anything we can do much more efficiently than we can. I doubt that the Nazis really advanced human knowledge any where nearly as much as the last 40 years with our advances in molecular biology. I find their experiments shocking -- and we now know unneccessary. It is actually amazing now that we can visualize proteins in 3-d -- making our own select proteins, as well as using the 3-d NMR Nuclear Overhauser effect to visualize proteins in solution. I am somewhat apprehensive that our genetic engineering will get out of control, similar to what happened with weapons of mass destruction. Fortunately, so far we do not have the skills to do any real damage, and I can only hope that we can mature as a species before any real damage can be done. I think the real threat to the human race will come from over population, and weapons of mass destruction, not genetic engineering. ( Exception -- genetically engineered weapons of mass destruction ) . If we do not mature as a species fairly soon, we will may not have to worry about the consequences of genetic engineering.

We do have to be careful with one aspect of genetic engineering, and that is what we are doing with crops. I think it is great that we have done what we have done -- corn with its built - in restance to certain organisms, tomatoes with anti rot properties -- other crops with higher yields, or resistance to herbicides. But -- by selling all of these genetically engineering crops we increase the risk of reducing biodiversity, and a sudden crop failure, due to some other unexpected events not foreseen. Fortunately some wiser, more realistic individuals are saving seeds of as many crop species as they can so they will not vanish off the face of the earth. We may need them some day. Eventually, we will be able to make a DNA databank of all species on earth -- but not yet. Imagine all species on earth in a single freezer! But if we have trouble finding a safe place for nuclear waste, imagine the trouble we would have in trying to find a safe place to store all that DNA at liquid nitrogen temperatures. Perhaps we should choose one of the poles of the moon for that.

If man was a consequence of evolution, it would greatly simplify my dilemma, but I have NEVER bought into that solution. Devine origin to me seems most likely, but this carries with it moral precepts that I find disturbing in a savage world. Many people seem to have no problem with this, but when questioned, their answers are simplistic and not well thought out IMO. Thanks for expressing thoughts which I have wondered ever crossed the minds of others.

So what does this mean? We are intellectual, self aware, but still very much animals. We have great difficulty overcoming our baser instincts. But -- we do know it is wrong to kill others, for any reason. An animal would kill to eat, and feel guiltless. We would feel guilt because we are aware at a very high level, and understand the terrible crime of destroying an intelligent entity. We would have no qualms killing a fish, but a killing a very small human embryo that looks like a fish is something very different.

I now suggest thinking of something else. Consider a caretaker ( CT ) who has been able to eliminate his baser instincts for some reason, perhaps evolving over millions of years. Let us say that the CT's culture has nearly infinite resources, and death is not an issue to worry about. Genetic engineering is commonplace in some form. There are ethical rules about the type and extent of genetic engineering ( I hope ) . The CT's culture is stable, and has survived that critical period when many members of his/her/its society had access to weapons of mass destruction. Let us also assume that the CT decides that he wants to do something with his nearly immortal life that is really worthwhile. What would that be?

What if he/she/it has become aware of other intelligences in the universe, some more advanced, some less advanced, some spacefaring, some planet-bound. First the CT's species would contact those who are more advanced. Let us assume that has happened. So what is left? To observe and aid other species to evolve. I think that would be glorious. Humans, perhaps?

But -- as we know from biology, biodiversity gives strength to an ecosystem. What about an interstellar ecosystem? Intellectual biodiversity and discovery of significant concepts require that each civilization evolve independently. Think about the potential of allowing all intelligent entities in the universe to evolve independently for a time, and then comparing notes. Just imagine what precious secrets might be uncovered! So our CT must be discreet if he is to monitor or help an intelligent species to evolve, and overcome their baser instincts. I suspect something like this is happening, eg Arthur C. Clarke's 2001, 2010. And Carl Sagan's 'Small blue Planet', and 'Contact'. And, there is another reason why it makes sense to intervene minimally while a species is going through the phase we are going through. If we destroy ourselves, we were probably too violent in our natures to respect other intelligent species anyway.

Why do I think that our baser instincts are fading, and we are becoming less like animals? That is because our worldly existence is improving, our governments are actually better and more sophisticated than they were, say 1000 years ago. We are getting less animal - like. And -- that we are going through a critical period of adjustment where we could easily destroy ourselves. I also optimistic because because I am pretty sure that we are not alone in the Universe. Given this premise, if the Universe was filled with warlike creatures, we would have been overrun long ago. Since we are left to ourselves, this means that there are other intelligent species in the Universe who have been able to overcome their more primitive instincts. If so, we can too. We probably have someone or something ( a CT ) watching over us. But any intervention must be very subtle, or our contribution to the rest of the intelligent species of the universe is diminished. This critical phase we are going through may be a test of our worthiness -- failure may be possible.

We will probably find that our laws and rules, and our concept of right and wrong are uniquely human, probably due in part to our basic biological design. But we will find ( I think ) some aspects of the Human ideal we dream about in other civilizations when we make first contact.

I am saddened that Carl Sagan will not be alive to see this happen -- it may happen within our lifetimes. And -- when it does -- we will better understand our animal nature, and what we are evolving into.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a302534.htm

In the above argument I equate all livings things as being equal and do not ascribe humans as having a devine origin.

http://www.tampabayonline.net/news/news101j.htm

Okay, boys and girls, perhaps if all of us goldbugs coordinated our efforts and simultaneously released a goldfish . . . who knows what good things might happen to our beloved yellow? . . .

http://www.mxbf.com/

All: That Softwar site has some interesting stuff, but the most interesting is the GAO report ( 11/13/96, GAO/NSIAD-97-5 ) .

See you all later!

http://www.us.net/softwar/gao975.html

I know this sounds odd coming from me, as I will not work on weapons of mass destruction. But -- I do believe that a strong 'police force' in the hands of the right power could prevent or delay WWIII.

If there was a Hitler making Nuclear weapons, I would not hesitate one instant in offering my assistance in developing countermeasures.

On the other hand, I do agree with you that electronically speaking, we are far ahead of the Russians. I never cease to be amazed how many times that Mir space station has to be fixed. On the other hand, just how far are we ahead of the Chinese these days?

But never underestimate the value of numbers and ruggedness. By the way, are your satellites ready for the solar flares coming up this sunspot cycle? I would expect the worst to begin in about 12 months. I don't think we have had really bad solar flares in nearly 40 years. I think one entire power grid was wiped out then -- long before solid state was in general use. And - solid state stuff is much more sensitive to electrical surges. Especially when it has millions of transistors per chip, like the newer stuff.

Anyone know yet why the Galaxy 4 satellite developed a mind of its own? I guess it is long gone. How about pieces? Did it run into some space debris? EMP?

I have an example for both of you. I think it was WWII. There was a major engagement between British and German naval forces. The Germans battleships had superior armor, and superior optics for their big guns. Better accuracy and range. So -- technically they should have won any battle with the British battleships, all other things being equal. Turns out that those Zeiss ( ? ) optics were superior, but suffered from vibration during heavy engagement. What that meant was that as long as the British kept the Germans busy, the Germans could not aim reliably. The less sensitive shorter range British sights did much better, because they did not fade under heavy fire. I do not recall whether it was the German shells or the British shells that messed up the German gunsights. Could have been the vibration from firing their own shells.

I wonder how well our high-tech fighters would work if all the communications satellites, and those radar spotter planes were not operational. Let alone y2k or heavy duty solar flares.

So you could argue at the end of time that good and evil will converge to create nothing. Therefore there is no reason to exist, as there is really nothing anyway.

The idea that the universe is actually nothing is probably true. But the miracle of creation itself seems to be based on some sort of fluctuation in that nothingness, for example, causing a positive something to be separated from a negative something. And, based on this initial chaotic event that created the primordial universe, other dynamical chaotic events developed somehow in this entropy - violating manner -- at least ten or so fractal - like events, each one building on another, culminating in the miracle of life, and finally intelligent life. I doubt we are even the final highest level of this chaotic branching tree-like process. God is probably at the top.

So Mephistopheles was correct, in a sense. But the point that he missed was that even if life or even the universe does not last forever, there is no need to accelerate the reversal of that mysterious process, and miss the experience of the miracle of life.

Let us say that evil must exist for good to exist. Fine. But just as matter and antimatter do not need to coexist in the same part of the universe, neither do good and evil.

There is another side to this, and that is that we as humans may be placed on this earth to learn -- to continually struggle between good and evil. That is, the concept of good is unknowable if we do not understand evil. How can there be plus without the conterbalance of minus? Or up without down? Once we reach a certain level of understanding, we evolve so some higher level. Perhaps even to a non-corporeal form. But how are we to achieve that unless our soul and intellect ( our non-corporeal part ) are highly developed and self-sustaining? Some of us are more advanced along this path than others. Who knows? Perhaps when we reach a certain level of advancement we can exist even in a universe of nothingness, and become part of God.

So Mephistopheles would want us to stop before we have even begun, and end the miracle of life. That is certainly evil. Hope someone enjoys my musings.

The Global Representative for the Austrian Mint will be with our party, so I hope to get some feeling for the current European gold market from the preeminent seller of gold in Europe. No, she will not be topless.

OK

Gold - Contructed a different channel that seems a better fit. This is a slightly downward trending channel. I like it because the POG touches this channel bottom at the same times that silver touches the bottom of its channel. Also, the slight down-trend fits with the overall feel of the current gold market. Comparing the recent action ( or lack thereof ) of gold relative to silver, I am disappointed in gold's failure to rally along with silver, as silver has pulled back up significantly off its channel bottom. Thus I expect that either silver will weaken near term, or gold will rally back up to the 300 level, breaking thru the top of the pennant pattern that has been forming. In any case, I am fairly comfortable that gold is not going to break down dramatically in the near term, through the bottom of this new channel. The bad news is that this channel predicts we are not going to see any new highs in gold in the near term.

Silver - It seems that the recent low in silver has defined the new channel bottom. I have left the old channel in dotted lines, to remind myself that this worst case scenario might still happen. Since the POG touches the new gold channel bottom at the same time as silver touches this channel bottom, it lends additional credibility to this new silver channel.

Platinum - A very minor adjustment was made to the channel to accomodate the actual lows. I was very pleased that I was able to predict this low very closely simply by using a channel width equal to the historical channel width. When used in combination with other things, these channels can be a useful tool. However, PL seems really lifeless, and it seems quite comfortable in this steeply downward trending channel. Still not responding to the rallies in PA.

Palladium - As expected, palladium pulled back to the long-standing up-trend line. Since it dropped so fast, it overshot a little, and is oscillating a bit at the moment. There might be the least hint that palladium may now be trending down, but I certainly wouldn't count on this yet.

hxtp://www.washingtonpost.com/

wp-srv/WPcap/1998-06/05/066r-060598-idx.html

Just change hxtp to http, and splice together.

Gagnrad -

I have asked myself the same question time and again: Why do I spend time here? At the core, I guess, is the truth that there is a goldbug buried under all my bearishness which can hardly wait to surface when gold finally does turn around. But I think your insight into the written word is the primary reason I keep coming back.

I, like most Americans of this age, strayed further and further from writing, only doing what was necessary for business. It was always easier to call a friend rather than write. When I burst on this forum ( one year ago to this very day. Happy anniversary to me ) , I had been reading it for quite awhile. I intended just one post, which turned out to be the grossest sort of underestimation.

I have discovered that this site has stretched some literary muscles that had laid dormant so long I feared atrophy. Things seem to have limbered up quite a bit since then, yes? The writing here has led to some other projects, including an ambitious stab at a novel, so I am thankful for that. The world is a better place with this whole web thingie. As you pointed out, a new generation of kids is moving back toward the written word. Or is it all just point and click?

Someone recently told me my writing reminded him some of Ross Mac Donnald, ( or was it Raymond Chandler? In any case, It was a great compliment. It is interesting that the comparison was to authors who not only come from another era, but both described and spoke in the voice of a more indeterminate time. Perhaps that is why their words are still fresh today. My own personal Literary Hero is the original Doctor of Journalism, Hunter S. Thompson, who has the clearest vision of any writer I have ever read.

All writers steal from each other. While it is considered in very poor taste - and also illegal - to copy another’s work; to emulate is the road to literary evolution. I have been searching for a voice in my words for some time, and I think I am on to it; if the rotten bugger would just slow down a bit and let me catch up. I think we could wrestle this world of words for fun and profit. But the Muse is a fickle lover and frustration is as often the result as success.

I will be on the high seas for the next week, with nary a computer in sight. Oh sure, I could grab the laptop of one of my colleagues and quickly punch in Kitco to keep abreast. But since the top deck of this ship is designated topless ( now that is a convoluted phrase ) , I will have no need to look further to keep abreast of things.

Indeedy

All I can think of is the following:

First -- the golden rule -- do no harm to others, treat them as you would treat your own family. Even those of a different culture.

Secondly -- there is no one written source that give all the answers -- a bible version King James vs Koran vs the Buddist or Hindu equivalent. Each one of these sources undoubtedly has pearls of wisdom, as well as words that probably should not be believed -- because of the human hand that wrote the words.

Thirdly -- The essence of good and evil must be understood by comparative religion -- the study of all religions. It is only in that way that the weaknesses of the human interpretation of what good and evil are can be minimized. What is common to all of the major religions is very likely to be very important. And -- probably some minor ones too.

I like to imagine something else that helps a bit to give me perspective. Are humans the only intelligent life forms in the Universe? Do we have a unique perspective on God, truth, right and wrong? Perhaps not. Perhaps we will not be truly ready to evolve intellectually and culturally until we can converse constructively with non human life forms.

Intelligent life is the most precious thing in the Universe, and it must be preserved, whatever and wherever it is. And it must be encouraged to evolve.

Thanks again for helping Ole'.

Gunrunner -

If one has a leverage account at Wilmington, or a fully paid storage account, he must either sell it, take delivery, or transfer it. I am not aware of anyone else in the country who will accept a leverage transfer from Wilmington. More than that, there is no cost for the transfer. For people who have to make this decision by June 19, your advice to stay away from Monex, the one company who can solve this problem with a fax, would seem to close the only door left open to him.

Why would you try to prevent this? Its good to see you posting again, but your latest advice is perhaps not in the best interest of some.

For the rest:

Republic Bank bought Wilmington. It is as simple as that. It happens all the time; one company buys another and consolidations occur. This is the case with Wilmington. I had no idea they were playing such hardball with their clients. I remember when they first got into leverage accounts. I spoke with the Vice President at a mining conference in San Francisco a couple years ago and I asked him why they wanted the headache of leverage accounts. He seemed to think it was a stretch for them and wondered aloud about the wisdom of getting into the leverage business. Seems time told.

Lots of companies have tried to do this biz. After 30 years, they have all come and gone, but we are still here. Survival of the fittest, yes?

Yes

I write these reviews weekly. Much of this info is already known by intense watchers of these markets, but it does boil the week down to a single page. I tend to be more balanced in this review than I do on these pages.

http://www.MONEX.com/mt.html

OK

All: A wheel is a cheap part of a train, but it does need to be scanned periodically for flaws. Just like our economic system, an apparently inexpensive problem -- if not spotted in time -- can bring everything down. And, the problem that brings everything down is often not what everyone is expecting. All it takes is for one person to become complacent, forget to do their job -- and the preventive maintenance is not done.

I too dream about the Mists of Avalon. The lesson I think is the world can be whatever we want it to be. Our world problems are all surmountable if we are wise enough to come up with the answers. The AntiChrist etal cannot function if we do not wish him/her to.

I read an interesting book titled: 'Conversations with God', by Neale Donald Walsch. He believes that he is actually conversing with God -- but that is not what is interesting. What is interesting is his comment that there can be no 'evil' in this world unless we allow it. No 'evil' leader can do anything evil if he/she is not allowed to do so by the people that work for him/her. That is the bottom line, I think. The world is ours to make into whatever we all make it into. Hitler or Stalin could not function without naive, blindly obedient followers.

Our awakening to this realization will not come quickly, I fear. But -- we must believe it will eventually come. We just have to search within ourselves and do and think the right things. Our Avalon will come when we are ready for it.

And, after that there is the matter of international OTC derivatives trading -- who is going to enforce the rules? The US? The UN? I don't think the international law structure is even capable of setting anything up that could effectively proctect a bank or other derivatives trader from derivatives credit risk. Now -- come to think of it -- they could copy maritime law -- rights of salvage? How does one salvage something when there are no physical assets to salvage? Could be like going to pull that shipwreck off a reef, and finding a wet pile of papers instead.

This still smells like some insider dealing to me. This makes me even more sure that silver is about to head up. I'll bet the big guys are getting positioned in the background.

Aurator -- you are a good sleuth type. What do you think? A little gold or silver in hand sure looks better than in someone else's warehouse. No matter what they tell you -- bonded, etc., you still don't know for sure that it is still there if it is not in your own hot little hands. Just like Fort Knox. I still think Goldfinger got it already.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Date: Sat Jun 06 1998 08:40

WetGold ( Rob@08:36 ) ID#187218:

Not sure what you are saying here - could U clarify your position ... TIA

this one is not making ANY rallies soon.....it is going down, down, down.

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha70.gif

this one looks goooooood....

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha80.gif

this one still may have bottom to make.....

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha78.gif

a big pennant forming...... ( ? ) ....why?

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha58.gif

I am totally with you cherokee.......smoke signals are heavy.....

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha82.gif

new heights here? neversaynever....

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha66.gif

such loftiness...........still looks good......hmmm...

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha86.gif

sayonara civic...... ( ugh ) ....

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha72.gif

possible good news for StudioR......open more rigs? ( ? ) ...

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha65.gif

gold and CAN$.........like two pees in a pod...... ( yikes ) ...

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha59.gif

speaking of Vodka...I'll have mine shaken....not stirred.......the name!? Well, Bond.....James Bond.......and I have just started my blowoff....................

http://www.digisys.net/futures/chart/ts_cha87.gif

nuff said here.............

away.....to the witching hour....

Éß

-----------------------

................

Also, Mornings on Horesback - McCullough: Early Theo Roosevelt life

All of this American ( with a little British ) stuff from a Canadian! See see seme Canadian stuff from my American friends!!

Maybe he'd be happy with the treasury job. I'll check with him.

Namasté

America seen as a boy, growing up, but with the inherant fumbles of youth. Set in the 20's . A great read! But for the life of me, can not put my finger of the book or author. Search your library, you will find it. It's a real tragedy of 1920...

I read it 30 years ago.

An American Tragedy - Theoadore Dreisser

Studds Lonnigan - Sorry. can't put my finger on that author at this time.

Good reading. It will take the mind of $292 gold!!

Carl Menger, Investigations Into the Method of the Social Sciences.

Ludwig von Mises, Notes and Recollections.

Victor Hugo, 93