medium. This reevaluation will end a tradition in London. No gold house

will make a market that has no sellers, official world gold trade will end for many years! And with it will go the last true value to trade

for oil. Oil will skyrocket in all currencies. Those who have metal

will learn it’s value in oil. All things in life change, the world will not be the same.

“Follow the connection from London, to South Africa, to the

Middle East, and on to Asia”

Mr. Markus Angelicus,

I read the gold-eagle write. You have made the link between

London ( LBMA ) and South Africa .

Also:

Many look to the middle east and say “they control the oil market

no more”. I say “you see not what is in front of your eyes”!

They do not have to keep oil up in price to control it.

One can gain more wealth by keeping oil down than by driving it

up, much more! And what is the value of this type of manipulation?

It is measured in gold! Tell me now, what gain is there to destroy

the world economy with high cost oil when they will provide you

gold instead?

But what value gold? All say “it is only a commodity subject to

supply and demand”! Understand me, Demand and supply

is written by BIS and $15 oil can cost $250 gold or $10,000 gold,

whatever is required! $250 gold and LBMA will live! $10,000 gold

and LBMA is sacrificed!

But, it will never come to this. The oil “understanding” was broken by

the Asians. More gold has been sold than can ever be covered! This

market is not the same as the past. One day gold will start up and

BIS will deal with it the only way possible!

Sat Nov 8 1997 10:17

JTF: Seeing as you mentioned watching Japan more closely, I took a look at its national horoscope. You may want to consider the following: The major outer planets are of course a background situation, and we can guess what that background signifies as possibility and actuality. However, Mars is interesting to watch as it moves fairly quickly, and its aspects very often coincide with short-term triggers for major background events. In this light, transiting Mars will square ( ordinarily stressful 90 degree angle ) Japan's Mercury in the 2nd House on November 24, 25 ( Mon & Tues ) . Mars will be at 11 Capricorn, with Japan's Natal Mercury at 11 Aries. Mars will also be moving into opposition with the Moon in the Yen's First Trade futures chart at 13 Cancer. Coincidentally with that, Mars also squares NYSE Midheaven ( 10.49 Aries ) as well. And Mars also will be moving into opposition with USA's Sun ( 13 Cancer ) and, as extra added spice, conjuncting OPEC's Saturn.

Mars also conjuncts the Comex Gold Futures Contract First Trade chart Sun, and Sugar's first trade chart Sun ( though each born 5 years apart, they share the same Sun position - 11 Capricorn ) . We have, in the past, discussed the correlation with moves in Sugar and moves in Gold. The gently bulling sugar price currently may be a portent of something ahead for gold. There are a few other coincidences from this fleeting, but interesting, Mars position, but these are enough to ponder. There's potentially something for everyone here. Besides, I wouldn't want to be accused of covering all bets so that one of them comes true.

My take on the correct date is that the planetary alignment is not so tight that we that we will have very strong tidal effects. Probably not the biggest spring or neap tides of the year, but I do not have any tide tables readily at hand to confirm this.

Apologies again for the confusion.

like a very good resource.

My spin ( no pun intended ) on your post and mine is the following:

All around us us a sea of zero-point quantum energy. We cannot see it because it is virtual, like the Dirac sea of electrons ( this part is mainstream physics ) . All the negatives are balanced by positives, matter and antimatter, etc. Solid state physics routinely discusses the presence of holes or positive electrons, without which our computers would not work. No transisters without doped P and N semiconductors. Who is to say these virtual theoretical constructs ( the holes ) are not real in some sense as well? Also mainstream is the idea that hydrogen ( protons ) can form in empty space -- a low probability, of course, but possible in those vast reaches of emptiness. Much much more vast than the pacific ocean to our earlier explorers.

A powerful electrical storm could very well lift some of this sea of virtual quantum energy to an energy level where it could be seen. One would expect this energy to be very low energy density compared to condensed matter, given the energy density of the driving energy source ( the lighning bolt ) . The ball lightning that sometimes appears could very well be partially condensed primordial soup from which hard condensed matter such as protons and electrons does form, presumably at a much higher probability than in outer space. Unfortunately, I doubt that proton or electron formation could be detected with our current electronic equipment, given the electrical turmoil near a bolt of lightning. But then -- in a laboratory, perhaps one could detect small quantities of antimatter -- interesting thought isn't it!

Harold Urey's Nobel Prize-winning experiment, with a twist!

How about antimatter, as well as aminoacids?

U No Whooopoo I'm talkin' about....btw, I need to put up some rain gutters on my house. Can you fill up some bandwidth with your wonderful personality with the best way to tackle this And I also would like to sod some areas in my backyard. Can you comment on that too What would be the best grass to use St gaudins grass or american eagle grass I wait on the edge of my seat for your stupid-ass reply.

away..to bang my head on concrete....or to read LGB posts....hmmm...I think I'll bang my head

Éß

sorry bart for the outburst...i needed it...now i'll go...

AWAY!

away

Éßhappy

Kiwi and MS: I have a more important question, brought up by Kiwi. Near Nov 30, Jupiter, the Sun, Neptune and Venus will be on one side of the earth, and Saturn and the moon on the other. The physical science types such as Kiwi nad myself expect some unusual gravitational perturbations ( tides ) .

Could you tell us when to expect turning points from your Astrological viewpoint?

The markets appear to be ready for a downturn very soon - either short term or long term. Asian international news not too good, either.

Thanks

thanks in advance...

away...to dream up more stoopid stuff

Éßrightlessbulb

Have fun with the birds. btw, do you have several gazillion species of Roo's in NZ I saw a great show on the different types and the abundance of them. Fascinating they are.

GO GOLD...

Ted - Felt pretty good back in the States, eh Home Sweet Home...uh huh!

away...to drink the bitter and cook flesh

ÉßßQîñç

Re: Gold in I.R.A.

You might want to consider the Central Fund of Canada, a closed end fund that holds gold and silver bullion exclusively. Am not sure of the mix.

It is available both in Canada and the U.S.A. For Candian investors I know that you cannot hold gold bullion in an R.R.S.P. and hence the value of the Central Fund. Perhaps you can hold the bullion in an I.R.A. however there must be extra charges such as insurance and storage.

I cannot claim that I am convinced that all of the items he discusses about the new physics is correct, but I am convinced that there is a whole new world of physics that we are just beginning to understand. For example-- how can ball lighting appear to pass through solid objects -- where does the vortex energy for a tornado come from? ( Ref: B. Vonnegut, 'Electrical Theory of Tornados', Journal of Geophysical Research, v.65,p203; 1960 ) . You can gloss over the math -- pretty detailed in some places, and still get a flavor of what he is saying -- even if you are not an engineer, physicist, or mathematician.

All the world's a stage,

And all the men and women merely players ----

Hamlet, As You like It, Act II

http://www.energyscience.co.uk/

Much of what we think we understand may really be something else altogether!

Ask SpudMaster...He has a better feel ;- )

away...to make profit under 301

Éßgroovin'

Welcome back Dak ( or chippie ) . Knock off the road dust, whirrrrr the blender, pull up a stool and catch up.....you ole dog. California is he place you ought to be anyway.

go gold!

away...to 'count' some coins...aaaaaaaahhh...

Éßogart...oh my..

I'm confident you can find the money supply data you need here.

http://bos.business.uab.edu/data/data.htm.

appropriate one. For those who closely follow Canadian gold stocks, I

would like to know what you think of TVX Gold, Inc. as an investment at

this time. Also, if you believe other companies are currently better

positioned, I would like your thoughts on who and why.

First Korea wanted 20, then 80, now 116 billion. How much will it be on Monday?

http://www.smh.com.au:80/daily/content/971122/pageone/pageone7.html

As I recall, someone posted the the IMF might have $40 billion total, but some of the money was being saved for Brazil ( just in case ) . Just wait till mainland China wants to cover the over $300 billion in unrecoverable loans for the SOE's ( emergency meeting reported by Steve-Perth yesterday ) ? I think the IMF is a bit short!

Vronsky: Glad you got Marcus's words of wisdom on the LBMA,Gold, and the Roths - I can't read enough about those mysterys! Thanks to Allen ( USA ) and his comments about Kitco posts remaining anonomous, ANOTHER ( the real one I think ) will post once more.

RLM, Skylark: Saw the Gibson's paradox posts. As I understand it, bond prices and stock market prices tend to correlate directly ( most of the time ) . Victor Neiderhoffer ( that infamous ex ( ? ) trader ) has a correlation graph of this in his book, Education of a Speculator -- see page 287, Fig. 12-4. Please note that x axis Bonds, y axis stocks may be the best way to see this, because the historical pattern is evident, as well as the current trend.

My guess is that when Bonds and stocks fail to correlate positivly, that is potentially a very bad sign, since dropping interest rates should increase liquidity and cause stock prices to rise. Your observation that this occurred in post 1989 Japan makes sense in this context.

Auric, all: Re - Red China Targeting White House ( Insight article )

Yes, this is a very disturbing article. We do have numerous conservative publications that are strongly negatively biased against our current administration -- some present carefully researched articles, and some do not do their homework. This article seems well written.

I think the most important point is that the basic concept is probably true. My impression of the current administration is -- anything goes to get the vote. Security issues are secondary, not necessarily because of any anti-US motivation, but simply because the individuals involved consider security secondary.

Did anyone else hear today's rumor that Arlington National Cemetary Plots were sold to certain major contributors? I don't have confirmation about this, but I wonder is there is anything that has not been offered to get votes or contributions!

We now have 5 independent investigators, thanks to Janet Reno. Perhaps the tide is finally shifting back to integrity and honesty in government.

As of October 6,97 :

1. M2 rose 5.6 % over the forth quarter base

2. M3 rose 8.4 % over the forth quarter base

3. M3 rose 12.7 % !!!!!! year-over-year basis ( the last time US M3 growth rate reached this high was '79 and again '81. Since '81 the M3 growth rate decreased to -1% early '92. Since this time ( Clinton's election ) the M3 growth rate has relentlessly increased and now exceeds late '70 high.

4. Commercial and industrial loans posted 11.5 % increase in September

5. Real estate loans rose 7.8 % in September

Given the fact that inflation is still a monetary phenomenon, the accelerating trend in money supply indicates

that inflation may be ahead.

However, it is still possible that we may be slipping into a severe deflation due to many factors present in the

world's economies and the current money supply growth explosion is just a temporary abberation. The

over-production capacity and namely the world's debt could be the reasons. The debt is inherently

deflationary and once the deflationary mindset is established, no paper presses can reverse it. Once deflation

rages full force and the mindset changes the political solution will be to inflate us out of it. If this scenario plays out, it would be critical at

this point to start buying gold with all the cash available, since inflation/hyperinflation will follow.

It has become almost impossible to look at the facts and predict what may happen. It

seems to me that the new world order has repealed many economic laws ( temporarily ) . We call debt assets ( bonds etc. ) , major

bank failures are greeted by rising markets /falling gold prices, IMF ( where the hell do they get all this money )

is ready with unlimited billions $$ to bail out anyone and everyone willing to loose economic independence,

etc...

..............................

I have hard time believing that the gold demand in the Asian countries, stricken by depreciating currencies is

down 54% in the last quarter ( ? ) , as reported by the World Gold Council.

First of all, the world's demand for gold is up 6% for the first 9 months, as reported also by WGC. This

increase would translate to about 7 million oz based on annual-based statistics. Also, do not forget that

WGC tracks only about 70% of the world's gold demand/supply. This fact may be very convenient in

explaining their gold demand underestimating totaling thousands of tons over the last few years. I am sure

that they have certain political agenda as well.

Frank Veneroso's repeated requests for WGC comments on his findings have been completely ignored. The

people in Asia have historically bought gold to protect themselves against the loss of purchasing power. The

Asians are smarter in this area of currency protection than anyone else in the world. People in these Asian

countries with money invested in gold suffered NO depreciation at all.

I personally know few people from Hong Kong and South Korea and the story from them is that people there are

buying more gold than ever, especially in Hong Kong.

away...to bet the farm

Éß

You are saying US Dollar Down and Gold UP Or US Dollar Down and Gold DOWN? I like poetry I just couldn't get some of your verses. Perhaps Nick ( sharkfin ) can help me...

Colleen - been trying to squeeze in some time for some proper analysis of the info you sent. I do appreciate it and will get to it soon. I will not waste your efforts. You are a dear [:-}. Happy Gardening, I can't believe that my roses are still in full bloom...in mid-Nov. Wow...

sas - How is Princeton these days?...hmmmmm...good to hear from you...

Silverbear 9:07 - I vote to LOCK-IN prices now and WAIT...hum dee dum...

6-Pak 00:10 MAYDAY - Good bit of history...thanks.

LGB - Hillary and Socks...You forgot U No Whooooo....eh...and maybe a slew of others....perhaps this explains the silence....just wondering...

Spud - Good morning :- ) )

away...no really...

Éßgone

i await the great sheller :- ( i need you man...

The date: Fri. Aug 15 19:36...go back if you can.

Perhaps my esteemed colleague The Aurator can oblige us. What say Aurator...throw the bone to us. Good with coffee. If not I can scan and post.

away...to the honeydews ( doos )

Éßmowingandscrubbing

I think it's all rather funny reading the remarks by posters that Y2K really doesn't matter. Obviously they know NOT of what they speak ( excluding you 223 since it sounds like you are covered ) .

Just think of all that equipment located in Mexico, you know the kind like used Biomedical instruments - how are they going to get it certified and/or repaired? Long term concern is not with the U.S. so much as it is with all those 3rd world countries. The Global Village days are numbered, but all the children will be well taken care of by Hillary and her feminazi cohorts!

The Middle East has another advantage in this problematic discussion, oil. The Asian Tigers as well as the Chinese Dragon will become huge consumers of this oil. They are watching their paper being destroyed and as the old cultures that they are they know the value of gold.

The Central Bankers have a serious problem, what do they have to offer. Paper. I think not. They had better bring to the table something these age-old cultures want, gold and silver. They will take what they want from there. They have the growing markets, the gold and the oil to demand whatever they desire.

To think that the Central Bankers could go from paper to invisible electric money will not sit well with these age-old cultures. The arrogance of the West is a spent philosophical and financial straw breaking under the weight of the historical winds of change.

And let us not forget Japan who has already embraced the Tigers. Oh yes, Russia, they are world-renowned traders of what? Gold I believe. The Russians and Japanese have been getting rather cozy have they not? And the Dragon and the Bear seem to have kissed and made up recently if memory serves me correctly.

The Dragon that murders its students was invited to the United States and greeted with open arms. A farce in full view of the entire world. The Bear having made an ass of the United States before all the world in Iraq has new found status in the Middle East. The pieces interlocking are no longer a puzzle.

Electric money, I think not, unless it represents real, tangible, feel the weight of it in your hand gold. The only real money and store of value the world has ever known.

And lest I forget the Princess of the East, adorned in gold and silver. India, she is as spiritual as ever and still a mystery to the West. I wonder if she will keep her distance or begin courting more openly the obvious beau's of her desires.

Clearly the problem here is one of confidence. Paper is the promise of a banker and a politician. Ultimately it is the markets ( people ) that decide what money is. The figment standard paper charade has been dealt severe blows in the past several weeks.

The pontification and pomposity displayed concerning the almighty US dollar is an end game in progress and should be treated as such. The historical graveyard is littered with the headstones of currencies, which thought of themselves as King of the markets.

Scared money, delusional expectations and foreign purchase of our debt prop up the United States. While economists' debate the game is being played out right before your eyes.

All the propagandized conversation alters not a stitch in the blanket of deflation, which is about to smother the globe.

As to your 3 and 4, As far as fear of deflation, as stated above, the present yield curve is not predicting a recession - but if there were one, then I would agree, any reduction in interest rates by the FED for this or to provide liquidity to support the market in view of its collapse would be beneficial for gold. However, your argument number 3 is in direct opposition to your premise for your first argument that due to monetary and strong economic growth, inflation will occur in the US and the FOMC would have raised rates but for the Asian crisis. As to a market collapse, this has been an ongoing prediction by bears for at least the last 5 years. I am also of the opinion that the market is acting toppy and is due for at least a sharp correction, but I also recognize that this cannot be predicted with any certainly and it may not occur for some time.

The Bullish comments for gold on this forum are about the same today as they were a year ago, and gold has declined steadily in face of them - as well as in contradiction to the opinions of many professional analysts who follow gold for a living. The lesson is don't fight the tape. There is not one iota of evidence that can be gleemed from the action of the market that gold has bottomed. One of these days gold may turn, it may do so next week, or not for three or more years from now. And that is reality.

before? On 9/30/96, the national debt was 5.413 trillion, then 5.225

trillion on 9/30/97. Yet Bill Clinton says the deficit is down to 37

billion instead of 188 billion. With our current strong economy we should

be having a budget sulplus. When the next recession occurs and tax

revenues fall, or interest rates go up, what will the deficit rise to?

I like Au & Ag. What is the Ag surpluss and when will it end. This is my first comment on the net. Thank you for your consideration.

thirty-something billion for Indonesia, and now we have a big

one for Korea, and maybe we'll have to have something for

Brazil, said Morris Goldstein, a former official at the

International Monetary Fund who is now a scholar at the

Institute for International Economics in Washington. You can't

go on doing that without end.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1997-11/22/069l-112297-idx.html

Bre-X defendants move to have suits thrown out

By SANDRA RUBIN

The Financial Post

Bre-X Minerals Ltd. director Hugh Lyons and Kilborn Engineering Pacific Ltd. both moved to have a Bre-X class action suit thrown out Friday, saying Texas is the wrong jurisdiction to try the spectacular $6-billion fraud.

The filings were among the first wave of defence statements to appear in what promises to be one of the biggest and messiest class action suits ever. Lyons, named along with all the Bre-X officers and directors, argued he is a Canadian citizen with nobusiness activities in the U.S. A director of Bresea Resources Ltd., a sister company, he said he wasn't

even aware he had been appointed a Bre-X director until March 1996 - two months after the fact. He resigned in the wake of the scandal.

In a separate statement, Kilborn said a Texas jury has no jurisdiction over the company in this case. In light of plaintiffs' claims and their tenuous connection to Texas, it would be particularly egregious to subject Kilborn Engineering Pacific, a Canadian company, to the burden of defending itself in a court in the Eastern District of Texas.

It's being headed by Paul Yetter, one of the biggest names in class action litigation in the U.S. Lawyers in Ontario, British Columbia and Alberta are working loosely with Yetter in a bid to have the suit argued before a Texas jury.

http://canoe2.canoe.ca/FP/nov22_brexdefend.html

Simply put, in 1923 Gibson noted that in times of

almost zero inflation ( as is the case now in the US )

sharemarket and bond yields became positively

correlated, that is share prices fell when bond yields

fell. Gibson's Paradox reappeared in post-1989 Japan.

There are sound reasons why his paradox could

resurrect itself in the US. Lower interest rates are

fuelling more investment with lower rates of return, and

eventually that results in lower company earnings and

lower share prices.

Layoffs likely at Kidd Creek mine

TIMMINS, Ont. ( CP ) - The largest employer in this Northern Ontario city confirms it plans to lay off up to 200 workers within three years. The Falconbridge-owned Kidd Creek mine wants to trim its current workforce to about 850. The layoffs will occur in the mine's metallurgical site. The problem is a lack of ore in the mine for the site to process into copper and zinc, the company said. Royal Oak mines in Timmins has already announced plans to layoff 34 employees earlier this week.

Thanks

Should that happen in RSA, it could be quite a dreadful time, as we are not yet sophisticated enough to understand that it may be a global occurrence.

I agree with Hedgehog that we seem to be seeing a blow-by-blow account of a momentous unfolding of events.

Even our local analysts, who were [ up to the 21st-22nd October] in general quite confident that what was happening ‘out there’ would not affect us here in South Africa, are now changing their tune.

I just worry that I am seeing too much of a particular view - as a gold-bug myself, I’m not complaining! [:-} There are many wise and knowledgeable posters here, and I appreciate their input.

Are there still optimists around

Take care.

There is a classic old cartoon from Warner Bros which puts all of it in a nutshell. In one of the scenes, the character is standing on a branch high up in a tree with a saw in his hands. He proceeds to saw off the branch he is standing on. What happens? Simple, the tree falls down, leaving the character smiling happily while the branch hovers in mid air. See - he says - we can do anything in a cartoon.

In real life, things are different. A group of men get together and sign some official documents. With that, a book keeping entry appears in the ledgers of some hard-pressed banks. Presto, the debt is no more. According to modern economics, these things don't only happen in cartoons any more.