Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:59
tolerant1 (Y2K ain't is a joke right...SO WHY are these people burning money on it? Tell me please) ID#20359:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:57
APH (Trading) ID#255226:
The Dow, SnP and OEX should be making Lows in the next couple days before another shot up. The Xau should bottom in the next few days between 58 - 60 before making a run to the mid 90's. What ever low in the metals is hit in the next 10 days will be it, even if my objects of 4.40 and 277 are hit or not.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:56
aurator (Winkies -R- Us) ID#251181:
Copyright © 1998 aurator/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I shall be honoured to be the stake-holder. All winkies should be forwarded to mois for safe-keeping and fair and honest distribution to the winner of the wager. BTW, what's the wager about? BTW#2, While in possession of your winkies, I might lease out your winkies, and right some winkie puts.

But the winner shall hold the gold.

Brother Gambler.
You have misunderstood one vital factoid. I's a Noo Zilunder. That's, like over the Tasman Sea from 'stralia. That 1500km gap means that the kiwis live in a land faraway from the Lucky Country, which is what 'stralia is. Stralians can speak for themselves about your take on what is Socialism. For my part, I know that your merkan language of politics has colours unknown to me, and, I suspect, that the NZ Political language and landscape is just as foreign to you. Perhaps you should come over and see for yourself. Or ask AuProducer, a merkan who travels almost every year to NZ, about NZ.
Once, there was a world without 'socialism.' Some folk lived in tribes, some folk lived in cities. NZ has evolved its own rules of politics and behaviour that is influenced by Maoritanga as well as Westminster, New York, Canberra and Hong Kong. The Maori had no notion of private ownership of land. The Maori were warlike, cannibals and gardeners. Because they shared the fruits of their labour amongst the tribe, you may call that socialist. I think you would be very wrong, as, from the time of the first contact with Europeans, the Maori showed themselves to be very capable traders. Trading kauri spars and masts, potatoes, flaxes, even humand heads if you want. My point is, that what you may call socialism may be seen as Aroha ( love ) here.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:54
JTF (g'Nite all) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Sorry -- the Galaxy reference was from Gollum's 23:47. Humbling that the light from that Quasar is 14 billion years old. Our solar system probably did not even exist when that light left the surface of that Quasar.

Somehow that light made it accross the 'hard' vacuum of space to the Hubble telescope. 14 billion years in that vacuum.

So space is the next great frontier -- anyone feel like repeating the travails of Magellan or the Vikings or Columbus? We should never give up our human curiousity. Just think of all those planets where unfettered freedoms can flourish once again. This world is getting too small for those of us with a longing for greater freedom and independence.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:49
tolerant1 (Clintler...Jack's number one ass at work with the future of millions of people at risk...) ID#20359:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:45
JTF (100 million Galaxies!) ID#254321:
Gollum: Guess you are off the air. Your 22:47 was enlightening. I think we can safely guess that at least one of these Galaxies has intelligent space-faring life in it. Perhaps one day we will be listed in the Intergalactic Annals as being 1 ) Intelligent, and 2 ) space-faring.

I think we still have alot of growing up to do before we will have regular visitors. I suspect we are still off-limits - in quaranteen, so-to-speak.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:37
JTF (At the Turning point -- thanks, Bart.) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

We are the Phoenix, rising out of the present weakening establishment -- the Vanguard of the future. We are a little group on this site -- often an island of truth in sea of lies and disinformation -- sometimes a little fractious. Sometimes a little too gloomy with our tendencies to the negative -- but always toward a desire for the truth, even if many of us are not investment wizards.

We are a small group of many small groups on the net, born of the information revolution.

The information revolution -- as traumatic and disturbing as the industrial revolution that our predecessors experienced. At first only a few benefitted, but as the industrial revolution grew and matured, most humans eventually benefitted. Now the cycle begins anew. Some will lose, and some will gain -- hard times will come -- but if we keep sight on what comes after the turmoil -- the hardship will be acceptable.

We must never give up hope, regardless of what comes our way.

It is still possible that I will see our first manned interstellar craft blast off before I leave this earth -- or at least the launch of our first space colony/asteroid mining operation. Precious metals from space, anyone? Perhaps one of our colleagues posting tonight will be one of the mining engineers. My next door neighbor is an engineer and dreams of being in space as well. We can hope.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:34
Gollum (Away for the night) ID#43349:
To await the morrow. Good night.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:33
Gollum (@Schippi ) ID#43349:
The wedge narrows...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:30
Gollum (weak results in proprietary activities) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:28
Schippi (Fidelity Select Gold Chart) ID#105139:
Fidelity Select Gold & Precious Metals Chart.
Ten market days ( seven hours / prices per day )

This am on LA business channel TV, one of their
BIG experts displayed a Gold chart and stated that
it appeared that the next move for Gold would be to $330

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:27
Gollum (From long long ago and far far away) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:26
gagnrad (You guys need a serious conspiracy to shake things up here) ID#43460:
With USS POG in the doldrums and barnacles growing on the good ship HMS Silver we need something exciting. ( disclaimer, I have no relationship with the individuals who wrote this web page but am awaiting word any day now )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:23
Gollum (A sign of the times as worlds turn upside down) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:18
JTF (Good point) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Morbius: Of course, you are right. Not a Wash DC trial. But Kenneth Starr has two grand juries. One in Wash DC, and one nearby in conservative Virginia. I don't think WJC will want to be tried there.

Either way -- just think about what such a trial will do to the US markets. What still puzzles me is why his own lawyers are bringing this up. What sort of behind the scenes deal is going up? Is WJC better off resigning to get slammed immediately with a criminal subpeona, or fighting impeachment tooth and nail while in office, only to get nailed later?

Also, if I remember the pardon situation, doesn't one need to be charged with criminal activity before one can be pardoned?

Apparently Nixon resigned when he did partially because if impeachment proceedings had continued, he could not have been pardoned by then President Ford. Jan 20, 1999 may be a very important date.

Looks like WJC is having the legal battle of his life. Poetic justice, I guess for what he has done along the way, littering his campaign trail with the ruined careers of those who have fallen so that he can continue to rise.

I hope we Americans will benefit from the example of WJC, and be more selective regarding who we will elect to high office in the future. Perhaps we need to reinforce some ethics rules for those who aspire to high public office. Perhaps we will also show the rest of the world that our three-branch democratic government still works.

I am now beginning to believe that we have not yet crossed the Rubicon in this country.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:16
Gollum (@JTF ) ID#43349:
Copyright © 1998 Gollum/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The strong dollar, which begat the great financial hot money hurricane, can not stand.

The resources of even so great a country as the US are finite and insufficient to continue to be the buyer of the worlds goods without also a seller being.

As we approach the new millenium, we pass from an age just as our forfathers passed from the age of sailboats, the age of horse and carriage, the age of mechanical calulators, and so many other ages that have come and gone.

As we look back on feudal times, so shall our children look back at the time of the birth of the Net and the rebirth of the Phoenix.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:07
Gollum (In the latter days ...) ID#43349:
Copyright © 1998 Gollum/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
before the rebirth of the golden phoenix, the southern knight was seduced by the lady in blue, and grimness came over the land.

The great storm built until it seemed like nothing could stand before it, but as autumn came the first eye wall came and the winds of turmoil ceased for a while as the great eye passed.

Never before had such a storm been seen with an eye so wide, and many thought that the troubles foretold so long ago had ceased.

As autumn turned to winter however it became clear that the first and second spike were coming to pass and the swoop and eventual surge of the silver falcon was in the air.

Those who could see began to prepare for the return of the phoenix...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:04
JTF (The second spike) ID#254321:
Gollum: Something is up -- this is supposed to be a Joyous time in the USA -- just a few weeks before XMas. But the dollar is not behaving, and the markets are not looking all that great. Am I imagining things, or could it be that some insiders aleady know that WJC is mired up to his neck in alligators?

Gold stocks are not showing any activity yet -- but perhaps we are at the deer caught in the headlights stage. Just blinking activity -- no action yet.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:04
oris (Russian palladium fans - TBS does it for you...) ID#249244:
From Russian with love is on this channel right now...
Secret broker James Bond tries to deliver...but gets
no palladium and ends up with Russian woman...Ruble plunges
and James goes to bed...Highly recommended movie for those
who want to learn more on the subject of Russian palladium...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 23:02
morbius (@JTF) ID#35757:
Do you really think a DC jury would ever convict Clinton? It would take the jaws of life to get him out of the White House.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:59
esotericist (@JTF - Clinton January Resignation) ID#224230:
I tend to agree - As we get to the vinegar strokes in this sordid affair I mmust say that a January Resignation / Deal / Pardon etc. seems increasingly like.y. The Republicans get their pound of flesh, he gets off, Wall Street has a better chance of short term spin ctonrol, Rubin gets to leave simultaneously ( hence no need to resign now ) etc.

When was that posting here about the unusual date ( was it Jan 19th ? ) for a State of the UNion ( wassit ) Speech he is due to make. Anybody ?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:55
JTF (More thoughts about my 22:47 post?) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
All: I don't think there is anything WJC's lawyers can do if criminal charges are to be filed against him. Something big is going to leak out.

Yes -- WJC may be able to evade the worst charges, and President Al Gore may pardon him -- but what ever it is will still get out.


Any speculation regarding what will happen to gold and the markets? It is possible that the initial reaction will be that gold equities will go down with the general equity markets -- but not for long. Gold bullion will rise steadily, and the US dollar will plummet.

I think now is the time for us to try to confirm what I have posted. Comments, anyone?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:52
Gollum (The swoop of the silver falcon) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:52
tomo (lkast) ID#374179:
clinton and droke can suck my columbian ass forever.....and that is a fact............

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:50
EB (This Yen thingy has me changing my spots....) ID#230216:
The charts point to the bull.........may be choppy here on up... buy the dips

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:49
Gollum (The second spike) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:47
JTF (Really Hot: Most of WJC lawyers think he will be indicted for criminal activity) ID#254321:
All: This is really hot news if confirmed. Please read carefully with focus on the last few lines.

I think this will put a bottom on gold if news such as this continues to leak out. Why whould WJC's own lawyers make such a damaging statment?

Something is up -- perhaps a deal is being made. WJC resigns in January if criminal charges are dropped?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:44
EB (Nick@cryininacanabeera..........Port Phillip Bay......go golF.) ID#230216:
Hey's about one of my yankee 'winks' vs. one of your kowala ( sp ) 'winks'. Don't let the wifey see this one, she may not like you wagering with a yankee doodle.

Aurbetholderator will see to it that all debts are paid........well? await the answer :-$ )


don't worry D.A. if'n I lose I won't give AWAY 'our' wink. That is still the prime attraction in my Wink's a one piece museum............... ( attendance has been VERY low......but those who see it are quite...... ( how should I say ) .................awed......... ( yes that's it ) ............awed.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:42
Tantalus (@T#1 - hope I'm wrong & it ain't that simple) ID#317211:
But nice to find right minded thoughts on both USA coasts.
Will watch closely your takes, always. Damn, wifey calling me to dinner
and I spend too much time here and why aren't I doing something useful
like taking out the trash..AUUUGHHHH.

Thanks & Regards. I'm outa here.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:40
Gollum (Clickity clickity clickity clickity) ID#43349:
Out on the mainline and building speed...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:30
tomo (knob player) ID#374179:
this guy DROKE has been playing with our knobs.the american dollar is down and he says sell. gold is up. what the f--- is going on......i thought that was good for gold?god dammn what is going on.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:29
tolerant1 (Tantalus, Namaste' gulp and a is neither that simple nor a task to which the) ID#20359:
Copyright © 1998 tolerant1/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
varied forces are well suited...Clintler's obvious complicity with the Chinese government ( watch N. Korea closely ) is treason plain and simple...
No faithful and true President of these United States could give away a land base ( Long Beach ) as well as sacrifice the integrity of the Panama Canal like candy at Halloween...risking national security so baltantly ...if this be the the thinking of a Rhodes Scholar then this institution is part of Jack's ass brigade and should be scorned with vehemence...

America is torn...sectioned and polarized...this is clearly seen...I would suggest that even with the fractious augmentation that there are plenty of very real Americans and they are sick of the dirtbags in the District of Columbia...sick of the pathetic patronizing major media and last but not least I believe the spark in Minnesota will ignite a political revolution come 2000...

The Republicans and Democrats have become nothing more that one party and like a is impossible to seperate the black from the white...they merely look seperate but are one in the same and neither offers America leadership...

I pity the young men and women in the military and law enforcement because they serve the dirtbags in the District of Columbia who are bought and payed for in a manner as would make any whore blush...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:28
Theme Investor (Drokes' Gold Call ?) ID#372400:
Reread his article.....he's not necessarily 'predicting' $250 gold.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:27
Donald (@JTF) ID#26793:
I recall that the trigger for the 1987 stock market crash was pulled by then Treasury Secretary Baker as he started to talk down the dollar in order to benefit U.S. exporters. If we are now establishing the same policy as per the earlier post we may get the same result as foreigners dump dollars and dollar denominated assets.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:26
Selby (Eh?) ID#286230:
Copyright © 1998 Selby/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Mooney: As I recall it was 18 months ago or more since I predicted gold would fall to its estimated average cost of production of $275 and that it would carry on downward based on mob disenchanted to $250. Gold was at $385 at the time. I missed the $275 by about $4--so far and the story is therefore yet to be told about the human part of the prediction.

The worst part of my lamentable behaviour was to sell all my precious metals except ABX and put the cash into Canadian blue chips where much of it increased 150-200% in the interval.

I'm not sure which of these despicable acts resulted in the most vehement Kitco censure and I wouldn't do it exactly the same if I had a second chance. I'd sell the ABX too.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:22
Donald (Japanese spooked by dollar weakness) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:15
Tantalus (@T#1 - I plum fogot Janet Rhino.) ID#317211:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:14
tomo (droke) ID#374179:
droke sold out easy pickens....thats the way of the world.........

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:13
Donald (@ssc-nut: Junk ilver coin prices at noon today) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:09
crazytimes (ssc-nut and Tolerant1) ID#344326:
I deal with Russ also and Jefferson Coin. I've been very happy with the service too. Me thinks alot of Kitcoites use Jefferson Coin and in particular, Russ

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:09
Tantalus (@tolerant1: IMHO) ID#317211:
Bill & Hillary, Al & Tipper, AG, RR, and other USA socialists have already submitted to the New World Order, and actively promote same
behind the scene. What else could possibly explain such lust for power
and lack of shame?
Beyond USA borders, Cadmessus etc...

I'm seeing black helicopters in the Carolina's. Any thoughts?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:07
tomo (yes) ID#374179:
when the DROKE followers sell it is surely a BUY.......

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:06
tolerant1 (ssc-nut, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...try the following tomorrow...honest and good people...yup.) ID#20359:
Russ Savage - 1-800-593-2585 Tell Russ the maniac from Long Island told ya to call...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:05
GIBBOUS (@NICK@C--Tanks--Dems da breaks, I guess!!!!!) ID#432395:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:01
ssc-nut (JUNK PRICE) ID#288286:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 22:01
tomo (OBSERVATION) ID#374179:
HIGH tech is over ...bonds are over...all eqitys are over ..WHAT is left....GOLD my friends....the momentum play is GOLD soon.......

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:58
Aussie (Nick-Re Lihir) ID#25196:
Merryl Lynch tell me that lihirs price is a screaming buy.The reason it has come down is that no-one like the current Prime Minister in PNG and the talk is he should go in January-and thats when you will see a big rally in PNG stocks.You may wish to email me on so I can converse direct.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:57
Cueball (Someone wants em) ID#344286:
Washington--Dec 9--Phenomenal demand for gold, silver and platinum coins
this year has been a real challenge for the US Mint, as the Mint grapples
with unprecedented demand for all 3 products at the same time, Mint
director Philip Diehl told Bridge News. The demand surge poses logistical
problems which will likely delay Jan silver coin shipments but should not
interfere with gold or platinum coin delivery, he said. By Cristine Denver,
Bridge News, Story .14805

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:57
Nick@C (GIBBOUS) ID#386245:
A few years ago I wanted to take a big plunge on a couple of companies in big solvency trouble. Couldn't decide which but wanted the lot on one of them. Tossed a coin and chose. One of them went bankrupt and the other quadrupled in a year. Don't feel bad about your juniors 'caus you know which one I bought!!! {:- ( ( ( )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:56
goldfevr (Russia's ruble faces collapse) ID#434108:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:56
skinny (Mike Sheller) ID#28994:
Respect, intelligence, and above all, common sense much appreciated.
The term specie is well known although ancient among certain individuals. How come you use it?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:55
tolerant1 (Tantalus, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...) ID#20359:
Travel safely and God Bless...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:54
Doctor Gold (US Dollars.....116.95 Yen....Gold Going UP....) ID#272136:
Here comes the DOW slide....going down...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:54
EB (Éß's mathmatix computations) ID#230216:
12k anumm to brokers ain't all that much.

Figure 22x12 trading days in a year.....subtract seven for holidays, etc.

257 days

257 into 12k = $46.69/day

That is $46.69/day.

If'n you day trade and are in and out twice a day at ( say ) $12.00/trade you burned ( duh ) .......$48.00.

If'n a trade is more than.......well, you do the math.

So.........what do we know from this............well.........that my broker was a trader in the Bond option pit for over thirteen years. He did WELL. But he probably does *ALOT* better waiting for the phone to ring.......churn and burn baby....... ( $ ) !

And it also tells us to do your homework before'n you throw cash at something, eh? hmmmmmmmm..... ponder lifes wonders


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:53
crazytimes (Dr Bombay, calling Dr. Bombay, come right away...) ID#344326:
Where are the Rothschilds in all this? You'd think that with gold becoming a punching bag this past year, and all the negative press ( barbaric relic ) , that the Rothschilds would have had enough name calling of their precious by now to pull some trigger and get gold moving to the stratosphere.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:53
tomo (OK!!!!) ID#374179:
when our so called leaders die...then we must bye....believe me!!!!!!!!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:50
Tantalus (I'm leaving town and my kitco fix thru Saturday. This is bullish for gold.) ID#317211:
Will check back in Sun am. Expect gold will test $US300 by then.
Unless, of course, it doesn't. Oh...
How's about the tolerant1 as Ken Starr's replacement?
God help Al Gore.
T#1- keep up the excellent work.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:49
tomo (stupe) ID#374179:
iam a stupe when it comes to most things.BUT when a bull like DROKE sells out then it time to LOOK again.......

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:49
Nick@C (Aussie@Lihir) ID#386245:
Falling like a rock, eh mate. I am currently out of majors but am getting very tempted by Lihir's low price. There must be a fly in the ointment--will let you know if I find it and vice versa I hope. I do not like the looks of the gold stochastics charts posted earlier, but will be happy to be proven wrong. Lihir is only partly hedged so reacts to gold price. Perhaps some PNG problems bbl

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:49
Bingo (A 1984 book on the Y2K problem:) ID#263254:
Copyright © 1998 Bingo/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
COMPUTERS IN CRISIS-HOW TO AVERT THE COMING COMPUTER SYSTEMS COLLAPSE ( ISBN#089433-223-6 ) . And on the cover of the jacket of this book:

Warning, logical and maintenance flaws have been discovered in the design of worldwide programming code and databases. These flaws will result in the collapse of the world's computer systems on or before 2000 AD. How did it all begin? On November 1, 1968, the National Bureau of Standards issued a Federal Information Processing Standards Publication ( FIPS PUB#4 ) where it specified the use of 6 digit dates for all information exchange between Federal agencies.
[end of jacket quote]

The question arises so many VERY BRIGHT and LOGICAL minded design analysts and programmers could overlook the very LOGICAL REALITY that year 2000 would come whether they liked it or not. Overlooking a future date just does not make sense for these ultra-IQ qualified programmers. How could they succumb to such stupidity?

Has anyone else ever wondered about the computer space problem so often given as the reason for the 6 digit usage?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:48
GIBBOUS (A few days ago, I decided to throw some money into a penny stock mining co.) ID#432395:
Got down to two Co's--QTR or MIQ. Chose QTR. MIQ up 65% today!
If there is anybody out there with luck like mine please let me know.
Might make me feel better.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:43
Mooney* (@Dutchman) ID#350194:
Copyright © 1998 Mooney*/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Our very own Selby predicted that same $250. mark more than a year ago right here at Kitco and was derided by many! ( I think even I questioned his why and wherefore, ;- ) ) Can you imagine the extra scrutiny that Selby's prediction entailed at this, the #1 Gold Forum in the World, when Gold was at about $350-375? Who is this Johnny come lately 'Droke' whom of you speaketh? Is he better than our Selby and yet making this prediction when Gold is already $85 CLOSER to that mark? Give us a break! Droke a guru at this point in time? $250/$290 = $40. away from target at time of statement. Selby - a year ago = $250/$375 = $125 away from the target at time of statement. Who has the most balls to play with?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:41
tomo (CON) ID#374179:
WHEN I HEARD THAT DROKE was negative..WELL then it must be bullish..for gold. YES...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:41
MoReGoLd (@~Silas~ 19:09) ID#348129:
Very interesting observation. Further to that the creator made sure that the color of Gold is almost identical to that of the daylight sun, the giver of all earthly life......

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:40
Aussie (Nick-Lihir Gold) ID#25196:
What is yr latest view on lihir gold and why has it drpped a fair way recently.Also its future!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:35
Doctor Gold ( got that right.....those that forget history are know the rest.) ID#272136:
Last chance to catch the golden goose.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:33
Nick@C (cyclist@commissions) ID#386245:
Tongue in cheek thingie, mate. I 'give' the brokers more than 12k a year. They sure ain't gettin' no broker.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:29
tolerant1 (Dutchman, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...I say Droke is wrong along with everyone ) ID#20359:
else saying gold will take a all the experts be date the vast majority have misunderstood technology and gold action will be no different...

When the blood flows in the street this time you will need a snorkel...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:29
tomo (dutchman) ID#374179:
this is surely the time yo buy anything related to GOLD.........

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:27
Doctor Gold (Gold is up....UP....AND AWAY) ID#272136:
Hold on gold bugs....tomorrow we test the's going to be a very good day.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:23
tolerant1 (cheese and crackers!!!...good grief...that cyclone looks HUGE...) ID#20359:
Good luck and God bless anyone near or in its way...YIKES!!!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:15
Dutchman (Pundit Pronounces Gold to Fall) ID#215235:
Cliff Droke's latest column on golden eagle posits that gold may drop to $250 or lower. Are there any more Bulls left to defend out precious?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:13
tomo (SMART....) ID#372214:
sell all gold shares on rally..........

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:10
contrarian ($US DOWN; GOLD UP) ID#203137:
$US down to 117.7 Gold in Hong Kong 294.8 - 295.2 Last $295

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 21:08
tomo (WHOW!!!!!) ID#372214:
gold shares will rally tomorrow... be sure of that. the market makers have to get out before xmas. BE WARND.......

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:57
Bingo (Mobil and Exxon = Big Y2K problem) ID#263254:
Once federal regulators approve the merger of fuel titans Mobil and Exxon, the joined company--soon to be Exxon Mobil--will face a daunting, multimillion-dollar Y2K conversion program together.,4,29381,00.html?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:57
Cyclist (Nick@C ) ID#339274:
You tell me how you can get rich on 12,000 of commission per annum.: )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:55
Nick@C (EJ@enjoyed your site...) ID#386245:
...but it made my head spin!!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:53
longj (devaluations will race debt implosion ) ID#30345:
The dollar is going to be coming home. However, the american consumers are racing this inflationary force with an ominous appetite for credit. The makings of a credit collapse and deflation. These two forces could mean that temporarily prices would stop falling but the real incomes of people will fall. This, in the best case where the opposing forces are held in balance, would mean a simple deterioration of the american standard of living, and a preservation of asset values and prices. On the more ominous side, we could see a asset devaluation due to the credit market saturation, and reduced demand. Still a third scenario is possible, if the dollar really slides then assets will hold dollar value, and the real losers are the creditors of dollars.

The FED is for the preservation of values and prices, the politicians are known for their making of promises and dollar devaluations. The Creditors obviously want the same thing as the FED although they are more tolerant of the deflationary scenario to the point that defaults are not excessive and liquidity is present for business. In veiw of the fact that those in power have conflicting agendas they will tend to do too little in agregate. This means that natual forces will tend to out run them.

That being said, the public's appetite for credit will be their own undoing. The deterioration of capital building will tend to slow genuine economic activity, the accumulation of debt will be too large to bear, and asset prices will fall. This will elicit the monetization of government debt, and bugetary reforms out of necessity. The system will then tend to be inflationary, with a cheap labor pool ( and much economic suffering and discontent ) .

So first would be to get out of the dollar using either foriegn stocks or a stable currency ( probably swiss francs or the Japanese stock market ) . Once commodities fall buy them. If the prices of assets falls before the dollar slides, borrow all you can safely pay back to buy land at depressed prices. Use the profits on your commodities, or rents to pay back the loans ( present homeowners will still need a place to live ) .

If the dollar slides before assets devalue the we are falling on the inflationary side. You will already have bought commodities and be safely out of the dollar based harms way.

From Rockefeller Currency report:

Outlook: Last week's dollar slide may already be ending. We are now in

narrow trading ranges in a thin pre-holiday and end-of-year market, with

traders feeling jaded and apathetic. A rising Dow gives only a little support

and the dollar is deeply vulnerable to a big sell-off, but the stock market is

bored, too, and overanalyzed to death on business TV. The dollar is also

vulnerable to impeachment, with the House making a last-ditch run at it. Few

now expect a Fed rate cut on Dec 22, and we are almost alone in saying it's

practically a sure thing. Employment experts Challenger Gray report that there

were more job cuts in November than in all of 1997, another good indicator of

the impending slowdown. One restraining note, though: US consumer credit

exploded again in October, up $9.7 billion at an annual rate of 9% ( after 4.9%

in September ) . If Christmas is jolly for retailers, we will be looking again at the

ratio of personal debt at historically high levels, personal bankruptcies at fresh

all-time highs, and other such signs of consumer fecklessness that worry the

pious Pollys. As usual when nobody knows what to do with the dollar outright,

the cross-rates will be where the action is. The yen is the likely loser if

unwinding yen carry trades is over this time, and we make no bets on the

pound whatsoever. It has a habit of perversely rising just when things look the


Beijing, Dec. 9 ( Bloomberg ) -- China's central bank will hold one-third of its reserves in euros within the next three years, said Qiu Yuanlun,

director of the Institute of European Studies in the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, Agence France Presse reported. Zhu Min, director of

the Bank of China's Institute of International Finance, estimated the amount of euros in the reserve would reach about 35 percent compared with

19 percent held in European currencies at present. He said it will hold 50 percent of reserves in U.S. dollars compared with 62 percent

currently, and 8 percent in yen against 15 at the present moment, AFP reported.

Yesterday, Joseph Yam, the Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Monetary Authority, said the HKMA may shift some of its foreign currency

reserve holdings into the euro.


...will hold 50 percent of reserves in U.S. dollars compared with 62 percent currently...

Please consider how a future value can be specified, in terms of percentage, when the denominated value is subject to floating exchange rates.

This commentary is not quite what it seems on the surface...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:52
Greenstone Gold (There she BLOWS...............Cyclone Thelma.....) ID#428232:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:48
Silverbaron (James Davidson speaks - Why don't you tell us what you really think, Jim?) ID#290456:

Watch you what you wish for!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:40
THE Priest (The silent pulse of gold) ID#369333:
there is still a pulse so hang on

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:35
bmacd (JTF-USD) ID#261322:
Greenspan is lowering the value of the USD in relation to other world currencies to keep the market propped up. The trade deficit is massive. Foreigners holding US assets has kept the market propped up, and to keep foreigners demanding them now, they will have to be cheaper to foreigners ( ie a lower US dollar. Of course this will make the trade imbalance worse ultimately, but hey a bandaid solution at a time right?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:35
Delphi (Nick@C, 20:07 - I can beat it too) ID#258142:
Your name somehow disappeared from subject line of my previous message

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:33
Delphi () ID#258142:
I tank my car today with regular unleaded at NLG 2.04 per liter. That’s 2.04 x 3.7854 = 7.722 a gallon or 7.722 : 1.88 = USD 4.11

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:25
tomo (cont) ID#372214:
golg price is up tonite so sell gold stocks lower highs lower lows.....

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:19
tomo (simplyifinf) ID#372214:
sees likr golg stochs suck...........

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:10
Delphi (POG) ID#258142:
Bollinger bands are getting tight. Usually it happens when a significant change in price is on it’s way. It does not tell a direction. Right time to buy a straddle IMHO.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:10
silver plate (Raising hackles) ID#234253:
Copyright © 1998 silver plate/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
It seems that my mention of immigrants created a small cyclone of controversy. To calm down the raised hackles I will try to explain. I am a descendant of immigrants. 90% of Americans are descendants of immigrants. So whats the problem ? The problem is the type and kind of immigrant that has descended on this country since roughly 1945. It was once a priviledge to be admitted to the USA. But since the days of FDR and his cohorts all this has changed. The liberals not only gave away the victory of world war 2 but are in the process of giving away the country. It is now practically the right of every down-trodden soul, whether legally or otherwise to reside here. And others not so down trodden come to revel in the freebies.

But the demise of the self-reliant American is not soley due to the immigrant, ( I wish I had not mentioned that word ) .

Those Americans born in 1945 are now 53 yrs old and they were weaned on freebies, rights ,priviledges and handouts and know nothing of hardships. Plus many others who claim to have been short-changed and are now demanding retribution. So the immigrants are only contributing elements, we are quite capable of digging our own graves.

So, come on you guys, there is enough meat in the above to cause an even bigger cyclone.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:07
Nick@C (My first ever non-gold post.) ID#386245:
Copyright © 1998 Nick@C/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
So you think the price of gasoline ( petrol ) is high in Canamerka do you

My cost for regular unleaded = 72 cents/liter
x 3.7854 = A$2.725/gallon
x .62 ( A$ to US$ )

=US$ 1.69/gallon. Bet Fred@Vienna can beat that!!
I would like to be your NEM broker. One of us is going to get rich!!!
EB@President's Cup
Them are waging words my friend. Let us hope there is moolah where thy mouth is. Go Golf!!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:05
BigFisherman (skinny) ID#258273:
Did KIA make 4x4s?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:04
clone (it is coming...) ID#267344:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 20:02
tolerant1 (Third in the House of ARAGORN, Namaste' gulp and a puff to mail made it) ID#20359:
through...hope all is well my friend...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:51
Mike Sheller (skinny has the real skinny) ID#348257:
Copyright © 1998 Mike Sheller/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Deflation cannot be accorded its due unless and until prices for general consumer goods come down. This does not seem likely to happen anytime soon. Inability for producers and manufacturers to raise prices should not be confused with deflation per se and falling prices. Due to the downward inflexibility of prices in this continuing era of inflation ( which is still with us, though the producer and consumer price indexes do not currently reflect the increase of fiduciary media devoid of specie backing ) it is not tenable to say that deflation is pervasive. Stocks have not even deflated, and, whatever others may say, they are a futurediscounting mechanism to be sure. The decline has happened. Too bad vif you blinked. And even gold is no lower than its 1982, and 1985 levels during a decidedly more visible inflationary time. The deflatiuon ( or, more properly, dis-iunflation ) is over.

Prime the pumps boys.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:40
Leland (The Bank of England & London Gold Market -- An Inside Report, From Colin Seymour) ID#316193:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:39
skinny (JP) ID#28994:
Copyright © 1998 skinny/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
You talk of being in Japan and talking to a person who was begging for money and had lost his business. You can go anyplace in North America & find the same thing. This excuse for deflation is irrelevant.
You stated that everyone has a different definition for deflation. In my business world, black is black & white is white. The machine is either on or off - period. You stated that the Big 3 would be begging for buyers of their vehicles by the end of 1999. That may be so - but that is not now. Are we in a severe deflationary period or not? The world I buy & sell in says NO.
When Allan Greenspan lowered the rates, its sole purpose was to devalue the US dollar, in order to equalize the balance of trade. If the US dollar had too much purchasing power in Japan, as an example, you would see a decrease in the price of Japanese manufactured televisions in the US, which is happening now. This is the sole reason for the rate cuts. At the present time, deflation, other than commodoties, is no problem for the average American consumer. I will stay by my original statement that until I see an advertisement for a 4x4 vehicle with a major price reduction, I will not consider deflation in effect at the present time.
There are certain people on this forum, that consider Greenspan a louse, dummy, idiot, dirtbag, and all other sorts of derogatory names, but in the long run, he has done what is best for the American economy. If the American dollar was to remain high, it would virtually cripple American industry.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:35
Bingo (Pentagon falsifies y2k reports...) ID#263254:
the Pentagon office responsible for security
of nuclear stockpiles admitted falsifying readiness
reports on Year 2000 computer problem.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:30
JTF (Sorry -- it's past my dinner time) ID#254321:
All: Mexico's debt is now 60 billion, not 60 trillion. As Senator Everett Dirkson might have said, 'What is a trillion here, or a trillion there?'

I think we are heading into a period of competive devaluations -- we will be 'neck n neck' with the Europeans, who have debt problems similar to ours. Hard to make you trade balance favorable if your competitors devalue their currencies as fast as you devalue yours. The US dollar may not go down as fast as AG wants it to.

Trade wars next?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:24
JTF (Good point) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
ROR: I do remember the US dollar swooned when Mexico had its crisis in 1994. I was puzzled, because I did not know how a relatively small economy like Mexico's could have such a big effect. Now we learn the original debt of 20 billion was never paid back and it is 60 trillion.

Just how much foreign debt have we floated in these Brady bonds? I am aware of the debt from SEAsia being rolled over into Euros. I think it must be at least 1 trillion equivalent US dollars.

And -- if we do not devalue the US dollar, those Brady bonds will cost the debtors more. What happens to all of that SEAsian debt if the Europeans do not devalue the EURO?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:22
Shadowfax (Compromised) ID#288264:
The name of the book that Terry Reed wrote did not make it onto the heading.
Name of book is Compromised. This is for those that do not know of Terry Reed.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:15
Shadowfax (Terry Reed (Author of book ) ID#288264:
Went into his bank in Kansas and on the managers desk was a brochure on generators. Terry asked why he was looking at generators. The bank manager replied that the FDIC has instructed banks must have a stand by generator in order to be protected by the FDIC, so that their ATM machines will operate when the power goes off and also to be able to disarm the electrical locks on the vaults.

Hey, looks like they are getting worried.....

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:15
JTF (You have come to the rescue once again!) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Donald: You may have resolved my and JP's dillemma regarding the price of gold. We forget that the US FED has figured out everything JP and I have been talking about, and they are actively devaluing the US dollar. If they do not, the dollar could actually get stronger, worsening our balance of payments even more -- with eventual catastrophic results.

So -- AG must actively devalue the US dollar for several reasons. And -- like I said last night ( and forgot already ) AG cannot afford to let the price of gold drop very much -- without disastrous consequences.

Regardless, I think we all need to carefully watch commodity prices, the price of gold, the value of the US dollar in foreign currencies, as well a a number of other things. AG may not get it right, and his attempts to devalue the dollar may backfire by heating up the stock markets, instead of pushing up the price of gold.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:14
Donald (Libya devalues by 18%) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:14
Silas_Marner (ROR ~ Brady Bonds) ID#285430:
Learn more about Brady Bonds than you'll want to really know:

It's a good site for keeping your eye on the international

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:10
BigFisherman (neer-do-well) ID#258273:
Ever heard of a black hole? You do date yourself.

Been avoiding this discussion, but a theoretical physicist friend of mine once told me that there are theories that there is no such thing as a vacuum, just dark matter. For what it's worth.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:09
Envy (@EJ) ID#219363:
Hey Ej, what were the first 6 ? : )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:09
Silas_Marner (Particle physics on Kitco?) ID#285430:
Copyright © 1998 Silas_Marner/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Has anybody heard the one about gold... that if the speed of
light was even slightly different than what it is, gold would
be white like most of the other metals. It has something to
do with it's outer shell being in harmony with the wavelength
of yellow, or some such thing.

This info might make the religious folks ponder for a moment.
6000 years ago gold was the only thing of immediately apparent
value--silver, iron, platinum, it all looked to same to early
man. But that yellow metal is clearly special. It's almost as
if God made sure that the universe would have a metal with such
unique properties, and he fine-tuned the speed of light to make
sure of it : )


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:09
Jack () ID#254288:
Copyright © 1998 Jack/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

So long as fiat based money buys gold; odds have it, that gold will be battered.

When gold is bought from miners, governments should pay with gold exchangeable certificates and then mint it into gold coin, both will go into circulation and gold will re-emerge as money. Government will have to thread careful. Probably will have to base the price on M1 money supply or a goodly percentage thereof.

Selling ones gold for printed money that has no convertibility is stupid, especially when viewed in contex with the recent currency failures.
Presently the US dollar is the currency sink, when it fails, what will one buy gold with? COMMODITIES, A SPECIFIC COMMODITY.

If we add paper gold to fiat paper, then................
Perhaps this is what MR. ANOTHER meant when he suggested gold would stop trading.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:06
ROR (JTF) ID#35770:
Copyright © 1998 ROR/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The reason for the dollar crisis which is coming is called BRADY bonds.. the brainchild od Reagan/Bush advisor Nicholas Brady. Have you ever asked yourself the question ..Why did interesty rates drop in Latin America when we really know that little changed. This applies to Eastern Europe and elsewhere but especially Latin America. In the late eighties the Govt and big business needed cheap labor but they also needed financial stability and some Washington control. Hence Brady Bonds. In a nutshell it is the US govt backing the sovereign debt of the subject nation with US zero coupon bonds ie if the govt doesnt do the right thing then US Taxpayers on hook. This created confidence and created the investment boom which was unjustified by local conditions. Now the problems created by the US govt guarantees are unwinding. This is why the dollar swoons when trouble hits these countries especially Brazil.IMHO this is one reason why there is a Euro. When these places collapse, which they will..TALK ABOUT YER DEFICIT and the surprise. This is why the dollar WILL COLLAPSE.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:05
Donald (Barrick news) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:03
EJ (Deflation Timeline) ID#45173:
Here it is in a more readable form than in my post yesterday.

I suppose this is as good a time as any to introduce you to my fledgling home page. It's not intended for the Kitco audience of sophisticates, although it has some Kitco poster attributed material, but rather for friends and family so I don't have to keep spamming them with email. If they're interested, they can take a look at the site.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 19:00
Donald (U.S. appears to have begun an official policy of dollar devaluation) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:58
Greenstone Gold (Surely, this can't be the REAL Bill Clinton........) ID#428232:
Copyright © 1998 Greenstone Gold/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Stitches Save clinton Waxwork

SYDNEY ( Reuters ) - Visitors at a Madame Tussaud's exhibition in Sydney have become a little too intimate with President Clinton's double.

Waxworks museum Madame Tussaud's, eager to avoid a Clinton sex scandal, have had to sew up the trouser zipper of the wax copy of the world leader on display, organizers of the exhibition said Wednesday.

``The figures are very accessible and people tend to get up close to get their photographs taken. We were finding that every time we went past Bill Clinton the zipper was undone,'' said the exhibitor's general manager Vicky Brown.

Brown said Clinton's figure was very popular with some visitors going down on their knees to have a photograph taken with the president.

``Because the figures are so life-like they tend to act out what happens in real life,'' she said.

Clinton is currently facing impeachment proceedings after admitting to an affair with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:56
TYoung (Donald...) ID#317193:
Do you have access to the number of comex delivery notices for gold for the last few years? If so please post and I'll check in later. TIA


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:55
JTF (Logging off!) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
neer-do-well: Visible light and magnetic fields.

Think of visible light as an alternating magnetic and electric field perpendicular to each other, moving at the speed of light. An alternating magnetic field oscillating at the frequency of that light will affect it.

But -- if you are asking -- can a magnet deflect visible light, then you are asking a much more complicated question. If I am allowed to add an optical medium for the light to pass through, and alter that medium with a magnet, then that magnet can be used to alter the beam of light. Kerr cells are an example of this, but as I recall that particular example uses DC electric fields instead of DC magnetic fields to alter the beam of light. Other materials can be used that are sensitive to DC magnetic fields.

I am a little rusty on this, but I think Kerr cells are still used routinely in optics.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:55
Donald (@Kitco) ID#26793:
XAU/Spot Ratio = .221. The 233 day moving average is .248

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:55
Silas_Marner (What is MONEY?) ID#285430:
Copyright © 1998 Silas_Marner/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I've always like Greenspan's defintion of money: a claim on some
tangible asset.

This broad definition would encompass everything from Federal Reserve
Notes to the IOU that I wrote my bartender. It also allows for
gold, a tangible asset in itself, to be used as a claim on some OTHER

The real problem facing the world economy is the number of claims,
compared to the number of tangible assets. If you took all the money
in the world and gave it to one person ( I'll volunteer ) then that
one person could literally buy the entire earth, everything owned
by anybody, and still have plenty of money left over. This is my
biggest fear, that this gulf between the claims and the assets is
getting wider and wider... until we all fall down the chasm....


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:51
Donald (@Kitco) ID#26793:
Dow/Gold Ratio = 30.67. The 233 day moving average is 29.25

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:49
Silas_Marner (Tantalus Rex, re: Gold leavng Vaults) ID#285430:
Copyright © 1998 Silas_Marner/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
If gold has left the vault, and lets say the CB's need to get
8000-14,000 tons of it back, how the hell are they going to do it?

I think we're on different wavelengths. Correct me if I'm wrong,
but if I borrow something at some rate of interest, be it cash,
or gold, or whatever, then I have the right to assume physical
ownership of that thing. Of course it might not get paid back--that's
the risk that all lenders take! That risk is reflected in the
interest that they charge, no?

All I was saying is that even though borrowing gold [might] entail the
right to assume physical ownership, it is not an option that would
be very often excersized.


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:43
JTF (5000 years of history about gold and deflations) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
JP: I think you should look more carefully at your historical references. I think you will find that the buying power of gold invariably went up during deflation relative to other commodities. But -- I think you will also find that the local currency price of gold did not always go up during deflation. This is very likely due in part to how much debt a country has outside its borders. I think you will find that the price of gold unvariably went up after most of the deflationary events were over. At that time the authorities will be trying to expand the money supply once again -- so they must print more money.

I think in these days of electronic money, major deflationary events will be rather sudden ones.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:40
neer-do-well (JTF) ID#391172:
Is visable light affected by a magnetic field?

Wasn't when I went to scool. Quite a while ago.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:38
Envy (Economy Slows in Parts in U.S.) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
WASHINGTON ( AP ) -- Economic growth slowed last month in many parts of the United States but is holding its own in others, reflecting a crunch at factories producing exports, the Federal Reserve said today. None of the Fed's 12 regions are in outright recession, but growth has slowed in five and has strengthened in only one -- New York -- the central bank said in a survey known as the beige book, after the color of its cover.
There are some positive things in this article, read the whole thing.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:33
JP (JTF--One clarification on dollar depreciation) ID#249232:
When I speak about a dollar decline, I mean internationally against foreign currencies backed by gold. Domestically I expect the dollar purchasing power to increase substantially.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:33
Envy (Trade Deficit at Quarterly High) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
WASHINGTON ( AP ) -- The quarterly U.S. trade deficit surged to $61.3 billion from July through September, a fourth consecutive record, as the Asian financial crisis crashed even harder against America's shores. U.S. exports of everything from soybeans to computers are down for the year. The Commerce Department reported today that the current-account deficit rose 8.1 percent in the third quarter compared to a deficit of $56.7 billion in the spring. The global economic crisis, which has leveled a number of Asian countries and Russia, has sent American exports plunging, pushing American farmers into their worst financial crisis in a decade and triggering thousands of layoffs at manufacturing companies. U.S. exports of soybeans, corn, autos, chemicals, computers and lumber have plunged because of the loss of key overseas markets. In a separate report today, the Federal Reserve said economic growth has slowed in many parts of the country because of a drop in production at factories producing exports.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:32
neer-do-well (Envy) ID#391172:
The post yuo did yesterday on deflation and the series of events which would follow gave me a chill. Never have I read a description which better described the death process. One thing shuts down thwen another etc. Made me glad I have gold.

Gold ain't ain't ain't stuff..*grin* Gold or silver will serve to price stuff, including the dollar.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:28
JP (Skinny--Every one has a different definition for deflation) ID#249232:
Copyright © 1998 JP/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I believe that towards the end of 1999 the auto's companies will be begging consumers to buy their products at much lower prices. New automobiles are NOT a necessity. People can fix and drive their old cars. When I was in Japan last week I saw people selling apples on the streets in Tokyo and begging for a few Yens. I was introduced to a person who used to run a $100m company and lost it. Now he is a homeless person in Tokyo living in the streets. I bought him lunch,gave him some money and he was telling me about the old good days in Tokyo when the Japanese economy was booming.He did not know how to thank me and was crying. During severe deflationary periods, people will buy only necessities. EJ yesterday had a good post describing the deflationay process.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:28
JTF (Future price of gold) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
JP: Now I think we are on the same wavelength. Your scenario requires that the value of the US dollar drops fast enough that the price of gold goes up in the face of massive deflation. That will keep commodity prices from falling through the floor. If they plummet, it could be because your scenario does not apply.

My scenario is a bit more complicated. I am not so certain that the US dollar will drop in synchrony with the drop in commodity prices. It may be alot more complex than that, though I am prepared for the eventuality of a US dollar financial crisis where a sudden liquidity exit from the US markets repeats the SEAsia scenario of Oct 97. The local price of gold would skyrocket if we take Indonesia as an example of your scenario. But -- that requires that the investing public have a safer country to put their money in.

I think we must be aware of the possibility that the US dollar might actually go up -- not down -- while other countries have new deflationary events. There is nothing a priori that requires that US dollar inflation should be in perfect synchrony with commodity price deflation.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:26
Envy (Big Supply Outlook Sinks Soybeans) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
CHICAGO ( AP ) -- Soybean futures fell early today on the Chicago Board of Trade in a continued retreat tied to forecasts for heavy beneficial rains in water-starved South American growing regions. Grain futures also were mostly lower. Soybeans took the brunt of the losses as forecasters confirmed computer model predictions that nearly 2 inches of rain will fall in southern Brazil in the next few days. That region accounts for nearly half the country's soybean crop, and the rain is expected to rejuvenate plants that suffered for weeks from dry, hot weather. Brazil produces nearly a fifth the world's soybean supply, second only to the United States. The rain also is expected to lead to increased farmer planting of soybeans over competing crops.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:25
Tantalus Rex (@JTF, @Silas_Marner) ID#295111:
Copyright © 1998 Tantalus Rex/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
@JTF: There's an action movie out there where a super thief wants to steal all the gold from the FED Reserve Bank. He does with a few dump trucks. I think Bruce Willis stars in it. In the movie, you'll see the gold behind steel bars just like in a jail cell. Each jail cell has the name of a country. Say Belgium in one jail cell, Luxembourg in another. So to move gold from one country to the other, all you do is open the jail doors a take the right amount of gold bars from one to the other... only a short distance away. But you're right, a nations has to be real stupid to leave all their gold in the US, a small portion yes, but not the whole amount.

@Silas_Marner: If gold has left the vault, and lets say the CB's need to get 8000-14,000 tons of it back, how the hell are they going to do it? Someone is up shiits creek without a paddle. I guess a lotta guys gonna get rich ( hedge funds that will have squandered the money from the gold sales ) at the peoples expense cause the countries gold really belongs the the people of that nation. If they can't recover the gold, it's bullish for the POG as I see it, cause the fiat money loses it's credibility.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:12
JTF (New York Fed) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Tantalus Rex: Please don't think I am an expert -- others probably have numbers regarding how much gold is physically loaned, or 'virtually loaned' with scrip.

I do have one thing you will get a kick out of if you have not already heard it.

For years many of the world's countries kept their gold at the New York FED. If one country owed another some gold, all that was be necessary was that some workmen moved the gold from one vault stall to another. Much cheaper that way. The US had the reputation of having the world's strongest currency -- for a time.

In recent years, however, many countries have requested that they keep their own gold at their own CB's instead of at the New York Fed. I think that time was near or just before Nixon closed the gold window.

I can't imagine the Rothschilds or for that matter any of the CB's carting their gold back and forth these days. So -- paper scrip must be in pretty common use. However, since any system is subject to abuse if it is in place long enough, some banks may have over subscribed their scrip.

Eventually something like that comes out into the open and a few heads roll. Just a matter of time.

I think we ( the American people ) should demand that our own FED disclose their own assets, if we are expected to disclose all of our daily transactions to the authorities ( via our bank officers ) . I do not look forward to selling a house, depositing a large sum of money in a bank, and then getting arrested for being suspected of drug dealing.

I am willing to disclose all of my transactions to the world -- is our own federal reserve willing to do the same? We can begin by looking inside Fort Knox.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:11
Aragorn III (And another thing, T#1) ID#212323:
I'm shutting this thing off for the evening. I'll check in with you tomorrow.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:09
JP (JTF--I'm expecting an accelerating dollar devaluation as deflation intensifies) ID#249232:
Copyright © 1998 JP/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The market already knows that in a depression the US dollar will have to be devalued and gold price will have to rise substantially in order to back the dollar by gold and create a stable dollar. Gold is a monetary unit of money, every other commodity ( like oil ) is just a commmodity who's price depends on supply and demand.In every depression that ever took place in the last 5000 years,gold always rose and currencies always declined except for currencies already backed by gold like the Swiss Franc. The rise in the gold price will NOT have any appreciable effect on the recessionary trend which will continue until it exhaust itself. Creating a stable currency in the first order of the day during a major depression. When gold rises in terms of currencies, the first step towards the next prosperity has been taken.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:09
Aragorn III (Tolerant1) ID#212323:
My outgoing e-mail has a failure of some sort. Let me know if you did or did not receive my replies this afternoon to your gold coin question.

My incoming e-mail seems to be functioning well.


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:07
skinny (JP) ID#28994:
Your posts indicate that deflation is an across the board problem. Although commodities and a few products are definitely deflated, I do not see this in the world I live in. For many staple items in the average household, I cannot see deflation. One of the best indicators of deflation will be major decreases in the price of the Big 3 vehicles. The first time I see an advertisement for a major percentage decrease in the price of a 4x4 vehicle in North America, I will believe deflation is in progress.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 18:02
Envy (Gold is Liquid ) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Gold to me is liquid like a currency, but it's still stuff like a commodity. Haven't we noticed that gold tends to be bullish when the price of oil, etc, is going UP ? It's no wonder, I mean, we're the ones here who talk about how a gold coin will always buy you the same amount of stuff, so with stuff falling hard against the dollar, why on earth would we or could we believe that gold would suddenly start buying more stuff than it did last week or last year or 1000 years ago ? If AG devalues the dollar, well great, gold will go up along with everything else that a devaluation inflates the price of. Take Brazil, what happens if they devalue their currency ? Well no duh gold is going to be worth more in Brazilian currency, because everything else will be worth more as well ! Devalue and/or inflate your currency, all stuff goes up, that's why you do it, to increase the attractiveness of your exports and make imports look less appealing to consumers. I agree that AG is inflating the dollar, but inflation and a huge rise in the price of stuff is something that happens at the other end of the deflationary pig, not at the beginning. That's why it's called deflation and not inflation, because it's the opposite. Deflation is DEFINED as the fall in the price of stuff. Has gold EVER moved opposite the price of oil ? Has gold EVER risen while silver falls ? I mean, am I crazy here or what ?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 17:57
Silas_Marner (Tantalus Rex, re: Gold Leaving the Vaults) ID#285430:
Copyright © 1998 Silas_Marner/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Tantalus, I'm with you. The fact that gold leaves the vaults was
news to me, and in fact I'm still not convinced.

Leasing gold is a way to make money if you think you know enough
to ride the gold cycles. E.g., you loan me 1000 ounces but you keep
it in your vault. In one year I owe you, say, 1040 ounces. But
sometime during that year gold shoots up to $800/ounce, and I claim
my gold to sell it, then I pray to the heavens above that it settles
at a lower price before I have to repay you.

But in that scenario, if gold never surged to a high price, I might
never decide to give you the sell-order, and therefore the lease could
take place without anybody ever needing to touch the stuff.

Likewise you might sell on day one, and hope that the price drops
to buy up later, the classic short-selling approach.

I don't really know what I'm talking about, I just always assumed
that leasing gold was the equivilant of short-selling stocks. And
we all know that stock shares that brokers deal are rarely taken into
physical possession.


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 17:50
Silas_Marner (Wall Street's bubble burst by teenage hackers) ID#285430:
Copyright © 1998 Silas_Marner/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
It sounds like a fantasy, but it's all too possible. A friend of
mine recently showed me how he could muddle with this companies
web site because of a giant security hole they had. Thing is, this
was a NASDAQ traded company, big big company. He joked that he
could consider short-selling their stock and then doing mean things
to their server... evil isn't it?

Well he was only joking, but consider the two hackers who testified
before Congress about how vulnerable the internet is. While they
didn't exactly spell it out, they refered to weaknesses in the DNS
system which could be maliciously exploited to knock out lots of
DNS systems simultaneously. It could be engineered from only a few
rogue servers in different parts of the world.

Now if that ever happens, if some evil genius decides to create some
mayhem, what do you think would happen to the Dow? To the NASDAQ?
What will investers think of their Yahoo stocks when they see that
the whole net can be vandalized by some punk in the Netherlands?

Something like that could be the catalyst to crash the US market.
Not that a catalyst is even required, but it might be the proverbial
straw that breaks the back.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 17:50
Copyright © 1998 Tantalus Rex/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
JTF: thx for your detailed post and reply to me last night. I'll have to read it more closely to truely appreciate what you've said.

I still think very little gold leaves the CB vaults and into the private sectors hands. I just can't picture government officials for example going into Fort Knox or the Reserve Bank in New York to gather the exact amount of gold that has been loaned out that day.. I expect this would have to happen weekly, the way the POG is manipulated.

I can picture removal of gold like maybe once a quarter! But not daily or even weekly.

I'm still paranoid about it.

Many thx again for your post......

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 17:46
JTF (Gold is a commodity or a currency or both) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Envy: I am inclined to agree with you about how gold can drop in price during big time deflation. If the US dollar remains strong, why does anyone need gold? Also -- during a credit collapse, paper US money will look very dear, indeed. It is still our most favored medium of exchange.

The vanishing of electronic money will not necessarily make the US dollar worthless, though it will make any kind of real currency alot more dear.

I think we should all review what happened to the US dollar and gold during the great depression. Gold equities actually went down until well after the market crash. Yes there were some fluctuations up and down, but the trend was clearly down. Don't assume this behavior of gold was due to the fact that the government fixed the price of gold at the time.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 17:42
Petronius (tolerant's news clip IMPORTANT DETAIL) ID#225236:

Did anybody notice that clinton in the title was spelled in small caps? Coincidence? That is the RIGHT way to spell it.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 17:38
JTF (Deflation and gold) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
JP: I do not understand one aspect of your persistant, and ( generally ) accurate prediction of our move in a deflationary direction. How can gold go up if the commodity price index falls through the floor?

It is one thing to say that gold will rise in strength relative to commodity prices -- it is already doing that. It is quite another thing to say that runaway ( ? ) deflation will not negatively affect the price of gold. So -- why do you think the price of gold can only go up? Are you expecting further dollar devaluations?

If you are right that deflation will dominate, doesn't that mean that our FED chairman AG could not inflate the dollar fast enough? I'm still puzzling over how he can inflate the dollar without inadvertently heating up the markets to a frenzy instead of pushing up the price of gold ( inflating ) .

So -- my point is -- commodity price deflation might very well cause the price of gold to go down, not up. Usually does.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 17:34
CoolJing (tolerant1 you are a generous person) ID#343171:
White trash is much more harmless than what bill clinton really is,
even toxic waste is too gentle. Wonder is not trying to id the exact
biomorphic proto sludge he is but in rationalizing those seemingly
intelligent among us that still tolerate his presence in Our House.

Our House was not a whore house until clintons abominations, we will
survive the scourge despite some of our neighbors ignorance.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 17:33
Speed (SWC rocks!) ID#9337:
NY Precious Metals Review: Palladium up on Russia supply fear

By Tina Petersen, Bridge News New York--Dec 9--NYMEX Mar palladium futures settled up $10.80 to $284.85 per ounce, hitting a 3-week high of $289, on growing fears of Russian supply problems in 1999. Consumers began to panic and scrambled to buy supplies as news filtered into the market that Russia may experience supply disruptions in the first quarter. Jan platinum also settled up $5.70 on the back of palladium to
$352.50, hitting an 8-day high of $354.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 17:11
Envy (Gold and Deflation) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
IF deflation continues, what will gold do ? My very uninformed opinion goes something like this. Deflation is essentially a loss of market, that is, people just stop buying. The reasons for that are, well, there are all kinds of reasons, but it doesn't matter, it just happens. The world saw a large boom for a long time, and now the markets are drying up, mostly overseas. It's not happening because of their financial crisis, their financial crisis is happening because their markets are drying up, both domestic and foreign. The world is slowing down, and the over-production ( read: regular production in a slowing market ) is just trashing commodities. Fewer people are buying pork, NOT just because the dollar is high and overseas folks can't afford US pork, there is less demand because fewer people are buying pork, period. It's the same across the board. US electronics sales overseas are hurt by a high dollar, and that's part of the reason profits are drying up, but it's not just because of the dollar, if that were the only reason, then Indonesia and South Korea would be experiencing huge sales right now! The US is out of the picture, their product prices are falling like crazy, and sales are still falling! That's deflation. What does this mean for gold ? Well, whether we want to believe it's a commodity or not, when it comes down to it, someone has to be buying gold to push the price up, and that buying has to end up being more demand than there is supply. Miners are still pumping gold into the market, the question is, are they doing it faster than the buyers are buying it ? In the case of oil, everyone is dumping oil in an effort to do anything they can to generate sales, it's the deflation death spiral dance, and it's crushing oil. Will that happen to gold ? Will miners dump everything they can, even at a loss, to keep sales up ? Will the people of the world, industries, and central banks buy gold when they're slowing down on the purchases of everything else ? Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of Gold, buyers and miners: The deflation story.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 17:03
BigFisherman (Chinagate) ID#258273:

Here you go LGB. Anything I can do to help you retire.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 16:54
JP (Jim---Gold will rise and deflation will intensify for the following reasons) ID#249232:
Copyright © 1998 JP/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
1.Gold is the ultimate hedge against bankruptcies.
2.In a major depression, the government will accelerate the devaluation of the dollar and tie our money to gold to create a stable dollar at much higher gold prices.
3. As equities,businesses and real estate decline in value,investors will be looking for safety and an alternative will be found in gold.
4. In a major depression, the public will be so distressed and will be interested only in jobs and cash. Gold is money.
5.We are watching the oil price declining and the Arab rich countries are beginning to wonder why is oil declining? Once they realized a global depression is about to set in, they will lose confidence in all paper money and buy gold.
5.The Euro can become an alternative to the dollar if backed by gold which will invite dollar selling especially if Euro depostits pay interest.
6. The Japanese will channel some of their reserves into gold since they are already in a depression.
7. Look at coin sales, they are skyrocketing. The public is sensing that something is wrong with our economy.
8.The Y2k problems will not help.
9.Gold has been in a bear market for 16 years and I believe the bottom was made in Aug 98.
10.Debt levels are so high and many countries are not able service their debts.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 16:32
jims (Jp - you've been consistant ...) ID#253418:
So you see, obviously the stock market crashing, deflation continuing, but gold and the related stocks going the opposite way as if a light went off on the 1st of January. Would you care to elaborate on why gold and gold stocks will rise when there is further deflation and rising unemployment? I know you have previously made your point but I'd like to hear again why - gold will rise and deflation will continue to intensify.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 16:25
trader_vic (LGB - Economy Expanding in November) ID#372228:
I bet the figures were compiled by the Democrats to shore up the presidents approval for the 48,000 people who just got laid off at Boing...we are sorry to say that those people were not counted because the unemployment office was closed for the year....

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 16:24
JP (Deflation is accelerating) ID#249232:
Copyright © 1998 JP/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The long bond is again below 5% closing at 4.96%. The CRB recorded new low's today closing at 191.41. The forces of deflation are getting stronger as each day passes. Gold is holding at $193-194 and in my opinion ready to break on the upside in the beginning of 1999. There is heavy tax loss selling going in gold mining shares but there is nothing we could do about it.The gold shares are washed out and represent a tremendous buying opportunity. As the depression sets in 1999, gold shares will gain the full respect of investors. I expect mining shares to do well in 1999 and to skyrocket 20 fold or more in the years 2000-2002. Contrary to common thinking, gold and gold mining shares will participate in a move that will astound everyone. Right now,silver is down and gold is pushed around as though is has no value. That will last for 2-3 more weeks. The universal demand for gold and silver is rising as paper money crumbles via competitive devaluations and lack of trust in paper. Forget about governments being able to pull us out of the deflationay spiral. Interest rates will be close to zero in the US within the next 1-2 years.
Within the next 6-18 months,I expect unemployment in the US to reach 15% or more. People will be looking for value as equity profits disappear and investors read about losses in the companies they own. Value will be found in gold and silver.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 16:14
2BR02B? (BOE) ID#266105:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 16:12
trader_vic (Tolerant1 - Clinton's visit to Isreal) ID#372228:
They better put Clinton in a old hotel...who would want to waist a new hotel on a bomb just to get rid of Clinton...and if they waited a couple of weeks, the congress might do it for them...or maybe this is the last chance the terrorists will have to get a shot at Clinton in their own backyard...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 16:09

COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for Dec. 9

Gold 827,036 - 4,012 troy ounces
Silver 77,909,664 - 186,189 troy ounces
Copper 80,791 + 627 short tons

The 4000 drawdown in Gold was from Eligible stocks...FWIW.
See Ya, Fox-man

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 16:03
SteveIS (@Cage Rattler) ID#280339:
You can get the commitment of trader reports right from the horses mouth. The URL is .


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:59
tolerant1 (Petronius, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...I had not thought of that...but hey...not bad...) ID#20359:
Clintler is white trash and it is high time to throw out the garbage...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:56
LGB (@ Moribus) ID#269409:


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:55
LGB (@ Morbius... Flying LGB impersonators?) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Perhaps LGB has seen the light...could it be? A new era? A turning point? A new enlightenment? A time when LGB believes;

* All fiat currencies will collapse
* The U.S. economy will soon collapse
* The U.S. stock market will collapse
* Y2K will be a huge and grinding problem
* Western society will degrade into socio political collapse
* Physical precious metals will be the medium of exchange
* Gold will skyrocket to $10,000 an Ounce
* All stock investor gains for the past decade will be erased
* Power grid, banking, and financial systems everywhere will fail
* Guns & gold will be the only security

Could it be? Could it just be I believe?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:53
tolerant1 (America...laughing stock of the world...thank Clintler...yup..uh huh...) ID#20359:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:53
Petronius (@tolerant1) ID#225236:
Is there any way we could hire these guys? Like a march of dimes or something?! If everybody who is for it would give his 10 cents, I am sure it could ammount to a sizable fee.

Hey, I would buy that for a dollar.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:50
Cyclist (covered) ID#339274:
18 1/8

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:47
LGB (China...refusing to do their part) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Yuan way or another, China was suppsoed to help precipitate the worldwide deflationary global economy collapse. Even ANOTHER discussed this ( and was wrong as always... ) China just refuses to play ball. give more nuclear sub secrets to the Chinee reds!

Wednesday December 9, 3:24 pm Eastern Time

China minister Jin rules out yuan devaluation

By Apu Sikri

NEW YORK, Dec 9 ( Reuters ) - A senior Chinese government official ruled out any near-term
devaluation of the yuan, saying that, although the country's exports are slowing, they are still
strong in the face of an Asian retrenchment.

Jin Liqun, vice minister of finance, told Reuters in a telephone interview that, ``China's economy is strong enough to withstand any
external shocks.''

He made the remark when asked whether or not China would consider devaluing the currency to improve exports.

``We have maintained our export growth even though at the lower rate. But even this is quite remarkable given the international
economic situation. We are trying our best to maintain our export performance,'' said Jin, who was in New York to promote
China's $1 billion, 10-year global bond.

The bond was sold to investors through Credit Suisse First Boston and Goldman Sachs & Co.

China's exports, which comprise about 20 percent of gross domestic product, dropped 17 percent in October. The slowdown in
exports has dragged China's growth rate down, falling short of the eight percent targeted by the government.

But vice minister Jin said that, ``after the fast growth of the last two decades, the Chinese economy can grow at a sustainable level
of around eight percent.''

He said the government has put together a fiscal stimulus package that includes infrastructure spending to stimulate the economy.

The country will rely primarily on domestic savings to finance growth, Jin said.

The global bond offering priced Wednesday was a means of maintaining access to international capital markets.

``It is very important for China to maintain a presence in international capital markets as a a means of communication with the
international financial community,'' Jin said.

The bond issue, the first from an Asian country since Russia defaulted on domestic debt in August, was priced at a yield spread of
280 basis points above comparable U.S. Treasuries.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:46
tolerant1 (o'tay...what's the downside here...huh...what...Hmmmmmmmmm...) ID#20359:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:43
EJ (Carmack) ID#45173:
Nope, like the man said, pee-wees like me don't get to play. Since it's a sure thing the IPO will be a great, profitable show $14, only the big money gets the good seats. The big guys are placing market orders, my broker tells me. That's ok when you're guaranteed to get in first.

Corrupt? Sure. The extent of the corruption of the markets will all become clear after they collapse and the smoke clears. It always is. They always do.


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:40
morbius () ID#35757:

OK. Who's impersonating LGB today?

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Our hour is comming. Banzai!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:40
SDRer (Why does one maintain that the SDR is being dragged back to gold?) ID#286249:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Because, as the USG/IMF were implementing their abstraction ( what one writer refers to as ACU-Artifical Currency Unit ) , EU was establishing trade agreements wherein the UNIT OF ACCOUNT was defined as a specific measure of GOLD.

See: Trade agreements with Iceland, Israel, Finland, etc., etc., etc., all of which were released to the Europa dB July 1998 and all of which have paragraphs exactly like this-

273A0514 ( 01 ) Agreement between the European Economic Community and the Kingdom of Norway - Protocol No 1 concerning the treatment applicable to certain products - Protocol No 2 concerning products subject to special arrangements to take account of differr ...[30-jul-1998 134 K]

3. The unit of account ( UA ) has a value of 0.88867088 grammes of fine gold.

One can not but wonder if the release of these agreements was the 'starter gun' of the battle that now rages in the corridors of the IMF.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:32
morbius (EJ - Another answer) ID#35757:

Last year's sales were infinitesimal.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:27
LGB (Gold Schmold.....) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Here we have a very bad article today for Ebay, about their web site crashing, ( they're totally dependant on same ) , and what is investor response? Bidding their shares up another 8.0 % !!!!!

Maybe there's something to this Tulip Bulb / Internet stock analogy after all. Or maybe I'm voicing sour grapes for bailing out of Ebay 2 weeks ago with Only a 433 % profit in a period of weeks.

Hmmm, it's the only internet stock I ever owned, and then only for a few days. I don't think I'll be owning another anytime soon. Net stocks...No earnings, thousand percent gains..... not a healthy situation .....uh uh...have to agree with the stock bearish folks on this one.

Count me out of the herd......Baaaa Baaaaaa MuuuuhOOoooooooo

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:11
SDRer (Why the SDR 'abstraction' didn't/couldn't work…) ID#290172:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

circa 1980

…more serious defect is the fact that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE [caps SDRer] to use the SDR as a standard to define the component currencies. Here is an illustration.

Peter measures the height of his ceiling: it is three metres. Some distance away, Robert enlarges his house. Peter measures his ceiling again and is surprised to see that it now measures only 2.7 metres. Soon John's house catches fire; immediately, to Peter's great astonishment, his ceiling increases in height to 3.25 metres.

Such are the unexpected gyrations of a standard which is made up of the very things it is supposed to measure.

and why the SDR is being forcibly pulled back, kicking and screaming, to a gold measurement…

Under the gold standard, one could for example, say that a franc was worth 1.777 grams of gold, or 20 cents. Whatever happened to the Deutschemark or the florin, the franc would still be defined by these 1.777 grams of gold and these 20 cents. 'Tying' the franc to the SDR as it was once tied to gold would presuppose an immutable equivalence, if not for ever, then at least for some time. Let us suppose that a franc equals 0.15 SDR. How could this CONTINUE to be true, given that the dollar or any other component currencies, by declining in value, would cause the franc to be worth more than 0.15 SDR, or perhaps less? A government is free to defend its currency against speculation but it cannot defend it against mathematics, and the independence of the component currencies vis-avis the SDR is a mathematical fact.
Jacques Riboud, The Mechanics of Money
[with grateful thanks to Aurator for discovering this little gem, and for so generously sharing it.]

From the Journal de Geneve, 20 April 1978:

The facts show that we are living in limbo. People take pleasure in the most flagrant contradictions and nonsenses….If SDRs are supposed to be exchangeable for currencies, they must be defined by something. Originally they were defined in terms of gold. Since 31 July 1974, this has ceased to be the case, and instead they are supposed to be defined in terms of a basket of currencies. Central banks want a reserve currency which will be neither gold nor the dollar. Very good, but this something still has to be found; there is no point in putting hot air into one's reserves.

What is now called for is a new examination of the nature of money…To eliminate any form of backing from a currency is to open the doors to each and EVERY FORM OF EXCESS…

and didn't it just…

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:10
Who Cares? (LBG - Maybe the old wives tale is true. VD makes it shrivel up and fall off. :)) ID#242214:
I couldn't resist. : )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:08
Who Cares? (Japanese Gov't to buy 10% of Market?!) ID#242214:
Oh, man, I bet there's is no joy in Kitco-ville tonight. : )

Many have underestimated the power of governments at their peril.
It's not even close to being over yet. No crash, no depression.
Not yet. Perhaps not even in summer '99.

Simply repeating that Greenspan has no power to stop markets
does not make it so.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 15:08
LGB (@ Who Cares) ID#269409:
Size of her thumb

And that's when it's in it's fully erect state.

Good thing she has a chubby thumb!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:59
Who Cares? (LGB - what did the president touch, and when did he touch it?) ID#242214:

And what did he touch it with? had an interesting rumor/thread
last night. Ann Coulter is rumored to have obtained some
of the redacted Congressional testimony in which Monica
claims that Clinton's cigar is about the size of her thumb. : )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:57
Carmack (zoom.................EJ) ID#277224:
Question is,did your order get filled?If so

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:56
Who Cares? (Those folks in the Gummint keep makin these dang numbers up all the time) ID#242214:

That's exactly right. They're making them up.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:52
EJ (xooooooooom!) ID#45173:
XMCM 2:24PM 36 1/2 +22 1/2 +160.71% 13,222,000

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:48
Cage Rattler (Committment of Trader reports) ID#33184:
Where is the best place to get them on the net with the minimum delay from publishing? All the sites I have found give the reports with an almost 10 day delay.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:48
EJ (Friendly gold saleswoman called me yesterday...) ID#45173: try to sell me some more gold. The pitch was the gold coin sales are up 300% over last year and the 90% of the sales are due to Y2K, at least that's the reason she says buyers are giving. For the past few months wealthy buyers have started to show up, with orders in the $500 - $1M range on average weekly.

Riddle: When does the demand for anything rise 300% without an increase in price?

Answer: When the supply is close to infinite.

Brother oris, this suggests an answer to your question as well?


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:38
Carmack (EJ) ID#277224:
Expressed well!!Shall we all watch for the rise
of the Golden Phoenix together?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:34
Carmack (Miq) ID#277224:
As of 10 seconds ago Mirandor up 88.2 %

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:31
EJ (Carmak) ID#45173:
It is no heresy to ride the Paper Tiger into the arms of the golden Phoenix.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:29
LGB (U.S. Economic health continues) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Those folks in the Gummint keep makin these dang numbers up all the time...don't they know there's a full blown deflationary collpase takin place here, that we can all clearly see?

Wednesday December 9, 2:15 pm Eastern Time

Fed says U.S. economy still expanding in November

WASHINGTON, Dec 9 ( Reuters ) - The long-running U.S. economic expansion was still going in November, even though many
industries reported weakness in exports, the Federal Reserve said on Wednesday.

``All 12 district economies continued to expand in November, despite contraction in export industries,'' the Beige Book summary
of economic activity in Fed districts said. The report will be used by Fed policymakers when they meet on Dec. 22 to consider
interest-rate strategy.

The Fed has trimmed interest rates three times since late September, most recently on Nov. 17, to counter what it described as
unusual strains in financial markets.

The latest report, prepared by the Dallas regional Fed bank based on interviews before Dec. 1, said low interest rates were
stimulating loan demand, but said bankers were tightening their standards and credit terms.

The Fed said that labor markets were tight nearly everywhere, especially in retail sectors, but pressures for higher wages have
subsided. Goods prices were ``steady or falling'' across the country, except for scattered increases on items like building materials.

Manufacturers foresaw continued softening because of weaker exports, with industries cutting production for a wide range of items
from clothing to chemicals, lumber, paper and steel. Economic turmoil in Asia and elsewhere has slashed U.S. sales into foreign

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:24
Carmack (Mirandor Up You Say ?) ID#277224:
Yeaaaaaaaaaa!!! Always bodacious to hear a bit of good news
every day or any day.Could this speak well for the pending
announcment or just an ananomoly ( spellcheck ) ?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:22
Goldbug23 (Aldebaran - immigrants) ID#432148:
Copyright © 1998 Goldbug23/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I agree with you that immigrants bring self reliance to our country, but maybe if you lived in Southern California you would also think maybe too much, too fast. And illegally many. But then our Democratic politicians think this is OK because they are counting on most of their votes in the future. I have to admit they do a lot of work we wouldn't for the life of us put the people on welfare doing to pay for their welfare. And they wouldn't do most of the type work the illegals ( or undocumented workers as the libs like to call them ) do. It is a mixed blessing and who knows how it will work out in the end. I believe we should be able to conduct out borders like the rest of the world does. Control them. But not the libs among us. And I have several friends who came in originally as undocumented. Tis true!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:19
Charleston Gold Bug (CRB Info) ID#344409:
Thanks for the info ,Tolerant :- ) . I am
trying to get some idea how low the CRB
might go.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:16
tolerant1 (Charleston Gold Bug, Namaste' gulp and a may find what you need here-let it LOAD!!!) ID#20359:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:15
Mike Stewart (Big volume in TO) ID#270253:
My high trading volume indicator on Toronto Mining Issues was on yesterday. This usually occurs at the end of a big move up or down as a sign of exhaustion. This time it is tax loss selling. Keep your eye open for some good deals.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:12
LGB (Clinton / Loral / Hughes / Satmex / Illegal alien connection) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
This story clearly demonstrates why Clinton's soft policy on illegal aliens from south of the border, is due to his Loral campaign finance connection. ( My own conjecture ) ...Uh huh. Definitely on topic for precious metals afficionado's who seem extremely interested in these types of stories here at Kitco.

Saturday December 5, 9:50 pm Eastern Time

Ariane rocket sends Mexican satellite into orbit

( Adds details, quotes )

By Alexander Miles

KOUROU, French Guiana, Dec 5 ( Reuters ) - Western Europe's 114th Ariane rocket placed into orbit a satellite for Mexico after a
textbook launch from equatorial French Guiana on Saturday, space officials said.

The Ariane 42L rocket equipped with two liquid strap-on boosters blasted off into a cloudy night sky at 9:42 p.m. ( 0042 GMT
Sunday ) from the European Space Agency ( ESA ) space center in Kourou on the northeast coast of South America. It was visible to
observers on the ground for over five minutes.

Initially set for launch on Friday, the mission was delayed for 24 hours to conduct additional tests on the satellite.

Nineteen minutes after launch, space officials said the SATMEX 5 separated from the rocket.

``We will be the leader for all of Latin American,'' SATMEX CEO Lauro Gonzalez told a pre-launch news conference.

Mexico-based Satelites Mexicanos ( SATMEX ) operates three other satellites broadcasting throughout the Americas. Loral Space &
Communications ( NYSE:LOR - news ) owns 49 percent of the company followed by Telefonica Autrey with 26 percent and the
Mexican Federal government with a 25 percent share.

SATMEX represents 25 percent of the Latin American satellite market, second only to PanAmSat ... It will distribute satellite
transmissions from Canada to Patagonia and the footprint of SATMEX 5 will permit us to reach 500 million Spanish speaking
people,' Gonzalez said.

SATMEX chairman Sergio Autrey told Reuters the company plans to go public in the future. ``It is our intention to go public, the
question is when and whether the markets permit it,'' he said

The 4.1 metric ton ( 9,200 pound ) satellite was built in California by Hughes Space & Communications ( NYSE:GMH - news ) a unit
of General Motors and is designed to operate in space for 15 years.

SATMEX officials said the cost of the satellite, launch and insurance was $230 million.

Saturday's launch was the 10th Ariane mission this year and the 41st consecutive successful launch of an Ariane-4 rocket.

Paris-based Arianespace that launches the Ariane rocket series said it had 40 satellites on order to be launch worth an estimated
$3.5 billion. The company plans 14 launches in 1999, including up to four missions using its new generation Ariane-5 rockets.

The company's launch operations have been hampered by satellite manufacturers inability to deliver their spacecraft on time.

The world market for commercial space services -- satellites, launches and ground stations -- was estimated to have surpassed $30
billion last year and is expected to double by 2000.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:08
LGB (@ longj) ID#269409:
Forgot to mention that a good reputable dealer like Vollmer will sell and buy back in quantity at minimal spreads if they're certified. However, avoid the hype mongering, Y2k and confiscation argument dealers like the black plauge.

Their markups and spreads are obscene, particularly since they prey on the unsophisticated Numismatic Newbies who may be getting their feet wet in Gold investing for the first time.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:05
Aldebaran (oh silver plate a gold bug couldn't think that ... immigrants) ID#201145:
Copyright © 1998 Aldebaran/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
It is not the people who come the the US that dilute the idea of self-reliance. Our downfall shall be caused by our past success. We have so little hardship in our lives that we have little chance to develope the ideas you identify as being American I most definatly do not want hardship, but when we are forced to fend for ourselves, when the is no help from the government, when we are forced to see our neighbors in dispare and we endeavor to help them ourselves, that is when these now mythical Americans are born.

Thoes who come from other place may bring those experiances with them, though I often think that they represent only the wealthiest segments of their own races. We need them. We need their new foods, new musics, new colors of skin and their new words. You spoke of outbreeding, but I contend that our danger is inbreeding. We have become to homogenized, to the point that most of our population is no longer content to accept people who are different. With out a constant stream of different people, we will gradually demand that all conform. And I think that is what you find most discouraging about what is happening to our country.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:04
LGB (@ longj) ID#269409:
As to selling them I've had excellent success getting max value from them by selling on ( dare I say it here.. ) EBAY! In that truly free marketplace, I get excellent bids. Only drawback is that it's laborious listing them and processing the buyers looking for 1 at a time, thus to sell 10 or 20 I'd have to list all of them seperately, ship them all separately, etc. However, bids there are VERY strong. I've sold a lot of Goldcoins there way over market, though ocassionally someone gets one from me at or under market. That's the joy of auctions...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:04
TYoung (Back to work....Comex delivery notices...) ID#317193:
Looks to me like notice has been given for delivery of about 4,400 gold contracts. Is this usual for Dec.? Donald...can you help...maybe I'm out in left game the wrong ball park. TIA


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 14:00
tolerant1 (well, that did not work the way I had planned...) ID#20359:
let me see what I can do to get it to post...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:59
tolerant1 (Charleston Gold Bug, Namaste' gulp and a puff...this may help if it posts properly...) ID#20359:
Copyright © 1998 tolerant1/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
 Alaron Trading Corp. -
 Investors Resources -
 The Grain Marketing Page -
 Technical Analysis of Stocks & Commodities -
 Futures Magazine -
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 ISON's List of Futures Related Sites -
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 Perception Knowledge Systems Ltd. -
 PC Quote, Inc. -
 Omega Research Inc. -
 Moore Seasonal Report -
 The Turtle Trader Report -
 Bill Sandusky -
 FutureSource -
 Commodity Trend Service -
 Optionomics ->> Pit Bull Investor -
 TFC Commodity Charts -
 Numa Web -
 CNNfn -
 Waldemar's List -
 The Golden Page-
 Trader Gizmos -
 MSN Investor -
 Bloomberg -
 Economic Statistics Briefing Room -
 -
 Dr. Ed Yardeni's Economic Network ->> -
 FuturesNet -
 James Janke's -
 Traders Digest -
 Worth online magazine -
 The Master Trader -
 Turtle Trader -
 Traders World -
 A Trader's Haven -
 The Economeister -
 Wingold -
 Investor Links -
 Investor Web -
 golden eagle -
 Options and Futures -
 Ultra Financial Systems. -
 Thomson Research. -
 Big Charts. -
 The Short Term Stock Selector
This site generates free neural network stock market predictions. Buy, sell and hold recommendations are made each market day at noon central time. An updated history of all trades is posted for your inspection. . -
 Agribiz -
 @griculture Online -
 USDA - grains -
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 KRVN Farm Radio -
 Ag Discussion Groups -
 Stratsoy Project -
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 CBOT -
 CBOE -
 CME -
 CSCE -
 KCBT -
 MidAm -
 NYCE -

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:51
Charleston Gold Bug (CRB Chart) ID#344409:
Does anyone know where I can find
a CRB chart going back to its beginning?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:43
Cyclist (NEM) ID#339274:
Short 18 3/16

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:42
longj (LGB) ID#30345:
How do you plan to sell them? The spread on these could still give you that loss you are looking for. Sorry for the previous outburst.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:41
TYoung (LGB...wink...wink....) ID#317193:
Bought in January....certified....up in value at least 25%. No profit cause not sold...wink...wink.


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:37
LGB (@ Tyoung... No profit on Liberty's?) ID#269409:
When did you buy em, what type are they ( BU, certified, circulated? ) and what price did you pay?

The Liberty's havn't appreciated quite as much as the Saints but they have definitely moved about 15% higher the past year.

Hope you didn't buy them from one of the Y2K / confiscation nonsense Hypesters out certain company with a certain country's initials in it. Those companies tend to charge substantially over market in their premium mark ups.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:33
LGB (Latest Loral / Hughes story) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Bart, please indulge me in posting the latest version of the Hughes / Loral rocket technology transfer stories. Several Kitcoites seem to feel that this story is SO vitally important to Gold and Mining share markets that it requires frequent reposts on a daily basis. Just doing my part. Thanks.

Wednesday December 9 2:34 AM ET

Pentagon Says Hughes Gave Too Much Data To China

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - A preliminary Defense Department report found that Hughes Electronics Corp. gave China
information potentially damaging to U.S. national security after a Chinese rocket carrying a Hughes-built commercial satellite
crashed in 1995, The Washington Post said Wednesday.

The Post quoted administration officials as saying the Pentagon concluded that Hughes ``went well beyond what should have been
allowed'' when it told China the crash was caused by problems with the rocket's fairing, a heat-resistant shroud covering the

One official told the paper that top Pentagon officials wanted additional questions answered before a final report was sent to

The report was prepared by Air Force Intelligence and the Defense Technology Security Administration at the request of two
congressional committees investigating the transfer of sensitive space technology to China.

The Post quoted a Hughes spokesman who said that no one at the company had seen the report but that it stood by earlier statements
that it had not transferred any information that China could use to improve its ballistic missiles. Ballistic missiles do not have

Hughes and Loral Space & Communications Ltd ( NYSE:LOR - news ) . are under investigation by the Justice Department and two
congressional committees for their role in transferring technology to the Chinese after satellites belonging to Hughes and Loral
were destroyed in two Chinese rocket explosions.

The Hughes satellite was to have been launched into space in 1995, but the Chinese Long March rocket carrying it exploded only
seconds after takeoff, prompting Chinese officials to blame the satellite.

Hughes asked for and received permission from the Commerce Department to discuss its views on what happened, although the
company was told to be careful not to disclose rocketry data that could assist Beijing in developing military missiles.

Hughes says its conversations with the Chinese were very general.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:30
tolerant1 (priceless...simply priceless...absolutely...yup...uh huh...) ID#20359:
Copyright © 1998 tolerant1/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Maintains Wilson, A happy and relaxed President is less likely to bomb people than a tense and up-tight president. Never underestimate the importance of a blow-job. Perhaps he's something of a visionary. Wilson's novel trilogy, Schrodinger's Cat, written in 1979, contains this amazingly predictive passage: ... We were saved because a red-haired Tantric Engineer named Babs Lashtal gave the Prez a first-class Grade-A blow job in the Oval Office at 10 a.m., relaxed his tense muscles, pacified his glands, soothed his frustrations, and inspired him to act relatively sane for the rest of the day. He did not push the ( nuclear ) button, thereby preserving millions of species of living forms on Earth. ...

Now that's a concept, isn't it?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:28
TYoung (Comex gold delivery notices....anybody ) ID#317193:
have a source for data over the last two to three years? Just trying to check on how much it ebbs and flows.

LGB...I feel your pain ...I bought the $20 Liberty profit...I'm holding. Then again, what is profit? : )


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:14
LGB (Impeachment Hearings) ID#269409:
Overheard during congressional investigation.

What I want to know is....what did the president touch, and when did he touch it?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:13
Envy (CRB) ID#219363:
This is one falling knife I wouldn't try to catch as it's being driven by global fundamentals and could end up anywhere before it's all said and done.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:13
MM (Envy) ID#350179:

You tipped the scales - I won't sell my 66 Ford ( 45k original miles ) ; )
and guranteed Y2K compliant too. ( was gonna offer it for 16 oz. AU in the paper, no cash - it was stored in MN for 15 yrs & needs some work... )
I can still pass the new *wonder* cars from Denver to Loveland all the way up the hill ( wink wink ) I let them pass me on the downhill. ( anybody can go fast downhill, No? )

Speaking of going down...
waiting to see if the XAU/HUI will pull another Lewinski

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:11
LGB (@ Gunrunner, JTF, all....Please post many more Loral stories) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Hmmm...the value of my 401K Loral shares is up approx. $ 28,000 this week so far. I couldn't figure out why, until I scrolled back through the past four days Kitco posts and noticed the usual mis-informed Loral bashing stories about rocket technology tranfers.

Obviously, the major institutional investors have heard that Loral is being bashed here at Kitco, and this could only be the most BULLISH possible sign for Loral shares, thus they're jumping in with both feet!

Please....though it seems to be grossly off topic, and though the same old Loral /Hughes story has been posted roughly 73 X 10 to the 87th power here,...... for the sake of my 401K account would you guys PLEASE PLEASE keep posting this story on at least an hourly basis?

This way I'll be able to retire on Loral share gains within a month or so.

Thanks in advance.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:11
Envy (CRB) ID#219363:
Another new low today, 191.58. Where she stops, nobody knows.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:03
LGB (Y2K prelude?) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Yesterday, the PAcific stock exchange was closed the entire day..due to a massive power outage in San Fransico that essentially brought all business and commerce to a halt for the day.

Interestingly, the exchange representative discussing the problem on radio this morning, stated that they are NOW planning to install a diesal generator in the basement to preclude such problems in the future.

He also stated that the other major exchanges had no current backup capability and had better get on the stick!

And.... I can't access my Ameritrade account this morning because of system problems....... Hmmmmmmmmm..... this Y2K naysayer beginning to have second thoughts! ( Or millisecond thoughts anyway! hehehe )

And here I wanted to make my first foray into oil shares this morning.....

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:03
MoReGoLd (@Mooney) ID#348286:
Im not going to try and convince anyone on my point of view on the motives. I do go by some very fundamental rules however, that I seldom see breached.
- You never get something for nothing. There are always motives behind events. You can draw your own conclusions as to what they are - just like Allen ( USA ) and others did.
- Usually when there is a stench in the air, there is Sh*t in the general area. Watch your step carefully.

Anyway, keep the faith in Gold........

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:01
rube (xau) ID#333127:
Going in some direction PDQ,very tite

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:01
gunrunner (Good quick synopsis of China rocket-gate) ID#354133:
Copyright © 1998 gunrunner/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Could the Chinese have planned this way back when? Just to get us to help them trouble-shoot & fix their launch capabilities? Think about it... Zero risk for them. Cheap labor built the rockets. Payloads are insured by the west.

The Trail Of Dealings With China's Rocket Gear

WASHINGTON -- Following are dealings between China and Loral Space and Communications and Hughes Space and Communciations and steps in the inquiry, as compiled by The New York Times:

DECEMBER 1992 -- Chinese launching fails with Hughes satellite on board. Hughes experts, with Pentagon monitors, help Chinese analyze the problems.

JANUARY 1995 -- Chinese launching fails with a Hughes satellite, Apstar 2, on board. Hughes agrees to help analyze the accident.

FEB. 13, 1995 -- Hughes executive presents their first briefing paper to the Chinese on problems with Apstar.

FEB. 13, 1995 -- President Clinton addresses the first meeting of his Export Council, led by C. Michael Armstrong, chairman of Hughes. Clinton voices support for further easing of export controls.

JULY 1995 -- Hughes executives finish their review of the Apstar 2 accident.

AUGUST 1995 -- Commerce Department gives Hughes approval to release report on Apstar 2. The State Department is not told about the report.

LATE 1995 -- A Central Intelligence Agency analyst, Ronald Pandolfi, visits Hughes, where scientists tell him about data shared with the Chinese.

FEBRUARY 1996 -- A Chinese rocket carrying a satellite made by Loral explodes shortly after takeoff.

MARCH 1996 -- President Clinton reverses a decision by his Secretary of State and shifts licensing authority for most satellites from the State Department to the Commerce Department.

APRIL 1996 -- Loral officials head a panel to review Chinese findings on the February launching. Two Hughes scientists are members.

APRIL 1996 -- Pandolfi drafts a National Intelligence Estimate that warns that technology transfers to China could be improving Chinese missile programs. The C.I.A. eventually kills the report.

MAY 1996 -- The State Department learns of the Loral-led report and demands an explanation. Later, after receiving reports from Hughes and Loral, the State Department asks the Pentagon to assess the security implications.

MAY 1997 -- The Pentagon sends its assessment to the State Department, saying the Loral-led review harmed national security. The State Department later refers the case to the Justice Department.

FALL 1997 -- A Federal grand jury in Washington begins investigating the Loral-led review of 1996.

FEBRUARY 1998 -- Clinton approves the Chinese launching of another Loral satellite despite the objections of Justice Department prosecutors, who told the White House that the approval jeopardized their criminal investigation.

APRIL 1998 -- The New York Times reports the existence of the criminal investigation and the Presidential approval over the objections of the prosecutors.

SPRING-SUMMER 1998 -- Congressional committees examine satellite-export policy.

FALL 1998 -- The Senate Intelligence Committee asks the Justice Department to examine whether the C.I.A. obstructed its investigation by tipping off Hughes executives to its interest in Pandolfi and his trip to Hughes.

DEC. 7, 1998 -- The Pentagon completes its assessment of the Apstar 2 review, finding that Hughes improperly shared American technical expertise that improved Beijing's ability to launch satellites and, possibly, enhancing the reliability of its ballistic missiles.

from the New York Times
December 9, 1998

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 13:00
Petronius (@Envy) ID#225236:
Copyright © 1998 Petronius/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Another thing I like about your pavement boat car of yester-year is that any mechanic can fix it. The parts on those cars are simple and there aren't a lot of complex computer gadgets on them.

You have touched on the subject I have been interested in for a long time. As soon as the computers appeared, the Big Brother started scheaming to use it for its own purposes. I do some work for the automotive controllers. Aside from the brain-dead excessive efficiency and emission demands ( which actually INCREASE pollution because they make new cars less affordable ) , the governments constantly try to put such great ideas into the car's embeded controllers as logging every instance of going above 65/75 mph. The idea is, the guy then does a smog check and Sacramento mails him 300+ speeding tickets. If they finally do that, I will be rich beyond my wildest dreams. I will set up shop in Tijuana and charge $100 for erasing EEPROMS. Another sick ideas that the governments are floating with is being able to remotely stop any moving car ( a little receiver in the ECU and transmitters for the cops ) .

The truth is, the computer can be used ( as anything else ) to either free or enslave an individual. There is no technical reason not to give a car owner ability to manipulate the engine's powertrain paramaters in a much easier way than what was possible with carburators. The reasons for it are purely political, Big-Brother nonsense. Another example, several years ago, the regulations were passed requiring all automotive components to be tamper-proof. All screews had to be replaced with rivets or the whole component molded together. The result, average cost of repair goes up 10 fold - you cannot easily repair a component or re-use its parts.

This is why I have high hopes for the Y2K. If nothing else, it will teach everybody the importance of having access to ALL source codes and importance of letting people tamper with ( and thus learn and know ) every piece of hardware\software they have paid for.


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:55
EB (Melbourne, Australia.....Port Phillip Bay.......) ID#187109:
Get ready you Euro's.....and Down Under Dudes....

To have the piss taken right outta ya................ the President's Cup.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:55
chas (SDRer your 10:43) ID#147201:
The chart is important. However, it has a black background. Any chance you could change this

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:51
CoolJing (SWP1) ID#343171:
Copyright © 1998 CoolJing/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I think months ago I told you about msr, mar-west. they have since been taken over by glamis but moved up real nice, hope you bought some. Its the blind squirrel thing, I found a nut.

Best juniors IMO:
bay, corner bay
qtr, queenstake ( be carefull about the operators, but they have many torpedoes in the water.
eag, east africa gold
stt, sutton resources, good cash but needs more for dev. mine, takeover play
miq now UP 100%!!

PS I've picked way more dawgs than winners in the past, but at least
it has been rewarding lettiing the winners run; wish I could sell the dawgs faster though, I get caught in the thin market downdraft a bunch

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:50
Mooney* (@Envy) ID#350194:
You know it babe!
And when my children were young I tended not to worry so much if I left the boat for my wife to drive. i felf that even if a pick-up bodyslammed her at the red light my kids would be OK and not tuna in a jap or rabbit sandwich.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:49
LGB (Famous Quote for the Day) ID#269409:

Yes, the president should resign. He has lied to the American people, time and time again, and betrayed their trust. He is no longer an effective leader. Since he has admitted guilt, there is no reason to put the American people through an impeachment. He will serve absolutely no purpose in finishing out his term; the only possible solution is for the President to save some dignity and resign

William Jefferson Clinton.... 1974 re Nixon

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:45
tolerant1 (Did you hear the one about...Hmmmmmmmmmm...huh!) ID#20359:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:45
Cyclist (sold) ID#339274:
NEM 17 7/8,hard to make a buck : )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:44
SWP1 (COOL JING) ID#286224:
I am in and holding on - the dice will role/roll/rule...

What other juniors are you positive about these days?


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:40
CoolJing (SWP1, miq, odd simultaneous post!) ID#343171:
I would stay in, but then again I am short so what do I know?
Talked to president of miq a few days back, they are awaiting news from Kinross on the railroad project drilling from the fall.
I was hoping someone on the thread was dialed in...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:40
tolerant1 (YEAR2000, Namaste' gulp and a puff to just burns my onions when I see things) ID#20359:
like that...grrrrr ruff...and speaking of jobs...immigrants undertake jobs the torpid...spoiled Americans consider beneath them...what a crock...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:37
Envy (@Mooney*) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Another thing I like about your pavement boat car of yester-year is that any mechanic can fix it. The parts on those cars are simple and there aren't a lot of complex computer gadgets on them. If the mechanic can't get the part from the junk yard, and nobody makes them for the used part market, then you can always get someone to build you the part for relatively little money. No strange ceramic or complex alloys on that puppy, it's just steel, and you can get it anywhere. I think all the crumple zones, reinforced doors, and air bags are nifty and a good thing, but there's a lot to be said for massive weight too, as a large object in motion tends to stay in motion, even when it's moving through the reinforced body of a new Lexus that just ran a light into an intersection.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:37
JTF (Jan 19 State of the Union Address?) ID#254321:
Cage Rattler: Interesting post. I have seen two references in the news to WJC's lawyers being worried about a sealed indictment of WJC ( or Hillary? ) that has been submitted to a Judge. If the lawyers are really worried, WJC might actually resign on Jan 20.

What amuses me is that Al Gore will probably be no match for a Jack Kemp, or one of the Bush brothers. But -- the rule has often been that the VP gets the presidential candidacy. If WJC resigns 1/20, the democratic regime lasts at least until y2k.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:36
CoolJing (Mirandor Exploration Inc. miq up 76% today) ID#343171:
anyone with insight? TIA

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:36
SWP1 (Re: MIQ (Mirandor ; Moonteal)) ID#286224:
Any late breaking news on MIQ?

IF there is someone following this what is your target price?

Heavy volume today and up over 55% ...

TO jump - or not to jump; this is the question....

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:35
crazytimes (carmack and xau5) ID#344326:
Thanks for the comments. When I read that post, it seemed a plausible scenerio. It also seemed that the CB's would STILL be in control of the POG. The question to be asked as to when the POG will rise is what event or combination of events can happen that the CBs would lose control over the POG. The idea of ECB selling more gold to purchase more US dollars seems ludicrous to me.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:34
CoolJing (Charles Keeling) ID#343171:
if only abx would pay the same per ounce for arp as they did aqp!
arp should go for $7CDN, abx really needs amable/filo to help pascua
economics, its just across the valley, err synergy

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:32
Cyclist (NEM) ID#339274:
17 15/16 were the trades

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:31
tolerant1 (Twisted aspects of fate...Clintler the man who loathes the military is allowed to bestow this) ID#20359:
deserved HONOR on a hero FINALLY recognized...I salute the gentleman and the rest of those brave individuals of the Tuskegee Airmen...and I detest Clintler for yet another false photo-op...Clintler has no shame, honor or decency...he is a hypocritical slob pissant...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:31
James (Greenspam@Sold out many years ago. He never accomplished anything in) ID#252150:
the private sector & as a matter of fact was in dire financial straits when he joined the Fed. He's not unusual. Like most bureacrats/politicians he realized that even with mediocre abilities he could rise higher & achieve more financially than he ever could in the private sector.

He compromised his ideals for financial security.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:30
xau5 (crazytimes) ID#210163:
Copyright © 1998 xau5/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
So the central banks will allow the lease rates to go higher so a short squeeze will develop. At that point they sell more gold. Is that what the trader said? The problem I see with that scenario is that for there to be a leased sale by a speculator from a CB the gold will have to be lent by a CB to a spec who then sells it. You cant lease it and sell it twice only once. So if a CB engineers a short squeeze it would only be to get the original gold back to sell at a higher price. There is only one sell here by the CB and that was the original sell. Everything else is just arguing over what price to cover and sell it again. I would take this news as a reason to see gold rally at least in the short term.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:30
Cyclist (NEM) ID#339274:
Covered and I'm long

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:27
Year2000 (Tolerant1 - Immigrants: You said it all!) ID#222107:
Copyright © 1998 Year2000/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Immigrants? There aren't many native Americans left in the USA! The vast majority of people that come here aren't looking for a hand-out. They're looking for an opportunity to work, and for a better lifestyle.

Two hundred years ago, they came from Western Europe. One hundred years ago, they were from other parts of Europe. Now they're from all over the globe.

One thing's for certain: There will always be some uneducated idiots complaining about immigrants. ( There were probably some that complained about Moses and his folks taking all of the good jobs in the Promised Land! )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:24
LGB (@ RHody....yoiur advice didn't work!) ID#269409:
I tried your advice already Rhody. I bought over a hundred U.S. Saint Gaudens double eagles last year....announced it here on this forum at the time....and they all went up about 20% in value since then.... as bullion continued it's precipitous drop from the ( then ) price of around $320 / Oz.

See, the Numismatic approach backfired and I wasn't able to participate in the GoldBug loss security blanket thing in that way. Also almost all the Saints I buy are certified by PCGS or NGC and therefore certified authentic. I can't even manage to get a counterfit coin that way...damn!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:18
Cyclist (turning point) ID#339274:
12:30.We'll see

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:17
rhody (@ LGB: Here's how to buy gold at $50 over spot. Buy numismatic) ID#408236:
coins. Gold sovereigns are best. A huge proportion of these are
fakes produced in Mexico and Lebanon, although the gold content
is correct. For the premium you pay, you get nothing. Just a

Now to wait while every coin buff on this forum takes a swipe at
me for suggesting this, even if it was tongue in cheek.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:16
Mooney* (@LGB) ID#350194:
Copyright © 1998 Mooney*/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Acura - ONLY a FEW thousand mark-up? HaHa. I love it. How about those small-size Mercedes that everyone seems to love throwing their money at even though the lucky passengers in the back seat have cramped toes and necks at the end of the ride. Or those Beamers of a few years back where the ONLY comfortable seat was the drivers seat? ( The right front passenger had to have one foot on ground and other on raised wheel hump. ) These foreign 'luxury cars' that people love to impress there friends with while paying twice what there worth and helping to keep N.A. in semi-recession ( rolling ) at the same time are beyond me. Give me a full sized old fashioned 'cheap' N.A. full-sized model any day! ( Sorry Folks I know That that is politically incorrect thinking. I will turn myself in to the Green police immediately after my next cross country run in my black gold guzzlin' machine. )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:14
longj (LGB) ID#30345:
you infant. Ill sell you mine.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:14
tolerant1 (Lets kill this BS conversation about gold under spot, loss driven sales and the other nonsense...) ID#20359:
Copyright © 1998 tolerant1/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
gold is is the one constant against which all other products are ultimately measured and everything physical under the sun is a product which is sold at below the market at market and above market prices...let the buy beware...

Proof...the dollar is money ( know...but it is money ) and you can go into ten different banks and find it for sale at different prices... ( loans ) is money ( yeah...I know...REAL money ) and you can find it at different prices all over the Internet...same damn product at varied prices everywhere...

End of story...gone good-bye...outta the park...fineeto...done...over...drop it already...o'tay...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:09
CoolJing (Charles Keeling) ID#343171:
concur with qtr, another good one bay, corner bay toronto,
also like miq

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:07
Charles Keeling (@ The Scene RE: Happiness Is:) ID#344225:
Copyright © 1998 Charles Keeling/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
For a goldbug, happiness is owning ARP at
90 cents and seeing it go to 5.00+ today. All
in less than 2 months.

Also Winspear has made gold bugs very happy with
a run from 75 cents to 3.00 +. Much more to go
on this one. ( Got Diamonds? )

A nice portfolio of Jr. Gold stocks can be rewarding
even in this flat market.

Take a long hard look at Queenstake mining right now
at .50 cents. Drilling results coming out soon.

I disagree with those that say Gold bugs always lose.
The opportunities abound. Would I own an Internet
stock with a PE of 1200? No Way Jose.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:06
tolerant1 (ahem....excuse me pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeese...References to immigrants to the USA ) ID#20359:
as not being self-reliant and other untoward purely inimical ratiocinations...are false...I cannot and will not let those comments pass as if they are across the board truths...

There are millions of people who come to the USA and work their butts off...who weep as they are sworn is as citizens...who help increase... add and provide America with a base of strength and a love of freedom...

Please do not lump all of these people into the homogeneous bigotry bourne of not either knowing many of these people or the facts...

Thank you...than you very much...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:05
CoolJing (LGB) ID#343171:
feel the sheer terror and fear of possibly making a profit on it
hey you can do that with a $5 premium over spot!
Come and see me, I'll sell you 10ozs at $50 over

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:05
John Disney ( Platinum Reflections ) ID#24135:
Copyright © 1998 John Disney/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
for RJ ..
I found your last post with my name on it unclear..
.. I do not share your enthusiasm for the platinum
price ..
Reason one .. 75 per cent of world platinum is
produced in RSA .. Mining Profits at Impala and Amplat
are the highest in years .. there is NO Presure from
local suppliers for higher prices. Historically
platinum prices have sometimes risen on fears of
curtailment of RSA supplies for reason of revolution,
mass murder, bombings, strikes etc .. these unhappy
events existed mainly in the overheated imaginations
of reporters and RSA continued regular supply in the
most boring manner possible for years.. to the happy
surprise of their offtakers and the sadness of
speculators going long the price. No one will fall for that
cr@p any more .. I dont think.
Reason two ... Japan represents almost 40 % of
demand .. amd consumption there must have slowed
down .. Ive read that demand in China and maybe the
US for jewellery is an offset to Japanese demand
slips .. However..
Chinese demand in 1995 only represented about one
fifteenth of Japanese demand .. Anyone believing
seriously that Chinese demand increases can make up
for Japanese loses is very likely deluding
Reason three ..
the platinum price is well below its 200 day MA.
the gold price is presently struggling to stay above
its 200 day ma. If it succeeds in its efforts .. gold
bugs may get a pleasant surprise.
However.. the platinum gold ratio has tending
lower all through 1998 .. the Ratio is now well below
its own 200 day MA at about 1.19.
Reason four .. platinum has obvious classical
resistance in the 360/380 area .. the Gold resistance
picture is much less clear in my opinion.

These comments are not for point scoring
purposes .. and I have no interest in debating
this with you .. this is merely how I see things
and how I plan to play them ..

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:02
LGB (@ Gold $50 over spot?) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Does anyone know where I might be able to buy Gold for $50.00 or so over spot?

See...I notice that Gold has been a losing investment for the past few years, and I've been told that anyone investing in it must necessarily ONLY feel comfortably happy when taking losses...and Gold seems to have bottomed..

Thus, the only way I can see to really take a good loss right now on physical Gold is to pay a hefty premium over spot. Anyone know some places I can find it at inflated prices so I don't have to feel the sheer terror and fear of possibly making a profit on it?

And while we're at it, I'm in the new car market and keep seeing these offers for below invoice sales. Again, I'm highly suspicious of a conspiracy and I only am willing to pay through the nose, so anyone know a good Acura dealer that adds a few thousand markup to each deal?

Thanks in advance.....

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:01
Carmack (Crazytimes) ID#277224:
Sounds like an all too rational and disturbing scenerio
re.possible CB gold sales.When you say that gold is
coming I presume that you mean like the lead balloon!!!!!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 12:01
Mooney* (@EB, Selby and MoReGoLd) ID#350194:
EB - Could it Be the Cnd. Gallon is 4.54l ( Not the 2.54 ) that you are remembering? Selby - Its been taht way for last couple of years. NOTHING is cheaper in Buffalo anymore EXCEPT the gas. This is due to our Deteriorated exchange rate. ( Thank-you Mr. Traitor- Bouchard ) .
MoReGoLd - One last point, just so there is no confusion. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with loss leader marketing. Done in every shopping market in America from time to time to get the customers INTO the store!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:55
Charles Keeling (@ The Scene Oh Yes..The full article) ID#344225:
can be read here:

Scroll down past WJC in stripes.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:51
Charles Keeling (@ The Scene RE: It's Contagiious) ID#344225:
Copyright © 1998 Charles Keeling/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Japanese Financial Crisis

Government Urged to Buy 10% of Stock Market

Leveraged buyout of Japan, Inc.

An influential Japanese business group has called on the government to issue up to ¥30,000bn ( $250bn ) of bonds to purchase corporate shares and stave off a further decline in the stock market.

These plans, which have been drawn up by a think tank affiliated to the Keidanren, Japan's main business federation, would potentially leave the government holding up to 10 per cent of the shares on the stock market.


Are the Japanese following our lead? Was Hong Kong market
intervention a result of AMERICAN market manipulation?

I honestly believe that the Mining Companys have a legitimate
legal claim that could be pursued in the courts of the USA.
Manipulation and fixing of the markets is ( or should be ) illegal.
Why shoould politicians be allowed to call winners & losers
in the stock market just to meet their own political goals?

Mining Companys who have been financially damaged by government
market intervention should group together in a class action law
suit in order to put a stop to this interferance in what is
supposed to be a free market.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:49
SDRer () ID#290172:

PENTAGON: HUGHES GAVE TOO MUCH DATA TO CHINA WASHINGTON -- A preliminary Defense Department report found that Hughes Electronics Corp. gave China information potentially damaging to U.S. national security after a Chinese rocket carrying a Hughes-built commercial satellite crashed in 1995, The Washington Post said on Wednesday.
( see )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:46
Cyclist (XAU) ID#339274:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:46
crazytimes (Can someone comment on this post?) ID#344326:
Copyright © 1998 crazytimes/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
This is part of a post on the Dutch Central Bank Announcement thread over on SI. I'd appreciate any commentary, especially about the ECB gold lease rates going up steadily, so that shorts will cover and the ECB can use the covering to sell MORE gold.

Now consider this rumour that I heard today from a futures trader whom was writing his Future Traders liscense as I was completing my Conduct test: {Pharaphased}
Before the Euro forms, we expect the CB's not to sell US Dollars, but to sell GOLD to buy the Euro. They will hold the US dollars against a failed hedge position of the Euro. Selling Dollar would make them vulnerable to economics weakness, if the Euro crashes. Without Dollars as a secondary safe currency they are at risk

Naturally, like any good gold-bug, I climbed the fence and posed the question: 'Why wouldn't they sell the US Dollar, and then if the Euro crashes and burn, buy the Dollar back at a much cheaper rate, as Gold would be higher?' Seemed obvious to me?

Reply: Because if the Euro crashes, everyone would be rushing back to US dollars faster than the Euro CB could liquidate their gold holdings, and Gold would be crashing at the same time.

I shock my head, and gently said: 'yeah, but...'

And he said, This is why the lease rates have gone up lately. The CB have allowed a large short position to be created, so that when the Euro comes on line, they will slowly raise their rates, and the excess demand on short covering will create a steady open market for the excess supply to be purchased. Knowing this, is why the traders have backed out of the gold market, and a small volume can be used to move the spot price. We know that the gold is coming soon, why cover?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:45
EB (hugo) ID#187109:
I always turn the charts upside down ;- ) or I 'stand' on my head.....

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:44
silver plate (Bottom$) ID#234253:
I see little chance of the American of the old days coming back.The recent influx of immigrants and the type of population that is outbreeding the old type American precludes that happening.

The dilution is too great. And these new comers, either foreign or home grown have no idea of the self reliance you refer too. Sorry too be so pessimistic, I see no solution in our current politically correct society.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:41
Selby (Canada-US Prices) ID#286230:
Copyright © 1998 Selby/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I spent about 10 hours shopping aginst my will in the Buffalo NY area about 3 weeks ago. I was happy to fill the tank on the way back and regardless of the size of the US gallon-- gasoline is much cheaper. Food and groceries were a big surprise. For exactly the same products ( minus the French labels ) US prices were the same or even higher than the same item in Toronto--after currency issues were taken into account. I have heard that this was the case from friends who spend the winter risking their lives in Florida but it is a strange thing to see.

Of course there was much more variety ( 10 spray-on cleaners rather than the 4 in my local supermarket ) and the 5 boxes of Flutie Flakes should be a big hit on Christmas morning.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:39
EB (MAJOR correction) ID#187109:
duh........... 1 US gallon = 3.78 ltrs. Sorry moondog. I was posting offa the cuff. I shoulda checked........oh well. Something is 2.54 litres.......I remember seeing it somewhere. I thought it was on the back of a gallon-o-milk........

btw......a gallon of milk costs me about $3.89 or something close to that. hmmmmmmmm...... find some Bosco


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:36
SDRer () ID#290172:
Latest London Bullion Fixings

Gold AM Fixing ( 9 Dec 1998 ) : 176.935 Pounds Sterling
Gold AM Fixing ( 9 Dec 1998 ) : 293.500 US Dollars

Gold PM Fixing ( 9 Dec 1998 ) : 177.379 Pounds Sterling
Gold PM Fixing ( 9 Dec 1998 ) : 294.200 US Dollars

Silver Fixing ( 9 Dec 1998 ) : 2.9062 Pounds Sterling
Silver Fixing ( 9 Dec 1998 ) : 4.8200 US Dollars

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:36
Cyclist (gold stocks) ID#339274:
could be in for a drop,sentiment negative

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:33
hugo (charts) ID#404312:

gold moving...ain't no downside to this market...only question is when, not if, we move much higher

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:32
Carmack (EJ Re. Zoom.Com) ID#277224:
Copyright © 1998 Carmack/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Also had nullifying experience with
going to place an order online.Could not even ring
up a quote.With only 4 million shares up for grabs
they were no doubt sold or at least committed before
or shortly after opening bell.Difficult to compete with
the big money.
Several days ago,however,I did buy Navarre Corp.and
it went up 68% in 24 hrs.Announcement today that they
are going to file with the Securities Commission for
an IPO with Net Radio,within 60 days.
I know that this is a bit of heresy, but must go where the
action is to support this gold habit.Good luck.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:31
tolerant1 (Aldebaran, Namaste' gulp and a puff...the US government can kiss my Island that is Long) ID#20359:
Copyright © 1998 tolerant1/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
butt...they have no right whatsoever to TELL you what to do with money you have earned honestly...I believe that FEAR of the US government is somewhat over-played to a large extent...yes...many of Jack's asses in the District of Columbia have written laws and other stupidities which infringe on privacy and intimidate the masses...

The fact of the matter remains...even with fiat/BS/unconstitutional money the scumbags in the District of Columbia have no right under the law to keep you from storing your money in a mattress a safe-deposit box or anywhere else as long as you have the paper work and it is honest earned money...

Just because some meeley mouthed dirtbag in the media/D.C./financial sector spouts from the mouth foaming through their teeth about protecting We the People from the big bad criminal/drug-dealing satyrs in the world does not mean that truth...justice and the Constitution have been suspended...

Don't forget that my friend...once past the scurf these dirtbags have no resolve and do not like a good honest street fight in a court of law...and some may call me ignorant but I DO BELIEVE in the LAW and it does work when applied properly...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:31
hugo (Clinton) ID#404312:

A more likely scenario is that the military brass will inform him that the troops are not with him.

The only possible way for Clinton to go to war is to provoke one, say with North Korea.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:26
Mooney* (@EB) ID#350194:
From the 'Every little bit of trivia that most people care nothing about Dept.'
Unleaded gas in my area is $1.25 gallon ( er.....2.54 litres ) Something wrong here! Even an American Gallon ( which is smaller than the Canadiana ) is larger than 2.54 litres. A Cnd Gallon is 4.54 litres and an American Gallon is 80% of a Cnd. therefore - I Think - An American gallon should be about 3.63 litres.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:24
Bottom$ (GAMBLER: With all due respect) ID#206196:
Copyright © 1998 Bottom$/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Re: Gambler's treatise about America's individualism

With all due respect, Gambler, I, too, am a seasoned American with an appreciation for the freedom upon which our country was founded and the sacrifices our forefathers endured to continue those freedoms. However, we live in a different day here in America. There are very few individuals who do not stick out their hands today when it comes to subsidies ( handouts ) that are offered by Uncle Sam.

In my seasonal business, my laborers ( for the most part ) need not even look for employment in the winter anymore as Job Services allow them to collect seasonal unemployment without even making an effort to find other means of income. Farmers are extended farm credits ( subsidies ) in many instances when they have a bad year or prices are down. The money pours in from the feds at the most minor difficulty that comes to a community. College loans and/or subsidies are there for anyone who wants to take them. And on and on I could go ad nauseam...

No, Gambler, this is a different America in my mind's eye from what you try
to paint for our Aussie friends. America IS socialist through and through much to my- and many others'- disappointment and disgust. America has become a me first, selfish and hedonistic society with only a few exceptions scattered around- many, IMHO, being goldbugs who see what our guvmint is doing through their fiat currency system that is trying to make we once proud Americans even more dependent on them.

Sorry, Gambler, but my many years of watching this once great country slowly ( maybe NOT so slowly ) fall from its once lofty position of greatness is sad but true. I believe there is a solution, however. But it will only happen as we spoiled Americans- first, wake up and educate ourselves to the fact that we need to be individuals responsible through on own efforts for our own well being without any handouts from Uncle Sam ( ie we collective body of taxpayers ) , and, second, once we are standing on our own two feet, look around and see how we can help our friend or neighbor get up on their feet as well.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:17
Mooney* (@MoReGoLd @ Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:53 @(@Mooney Re: Below spot Gold)) ID#350194:
Copyright © 1998 Mooney*/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
MoReGoLd - I meant no disrespect to you personally last night, there had been about a dozen different 'something's wrong here', 'this company is liquidating', 'must be a conspiracy', 'must be a trick', type posts in last two days. I basically said what I said, because it is the plain, simple, obvious TRUTH. Loss Leader Marketing. EVEN if RJ himself claims not to know why his company is doing it I am telling you that that is the reason. Dead Simple.
A child of five could figure this out. Go fetch me a five year old child. Groucho Marx
BTW - THey would love to hook up with the kind of customer who can buy and sell 1000 ounzes without even batting an eyelid. Also MoRe - Don't forget there is something known as the Buy/Sell spread. ;-0 !!
Keep Smiling!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:17
Cyclist (bond) ID#339274:
Sold March bond

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:16
hugo (selby) ID#404312:

I don't think Clinton can risk a war because he doesn't know if the military would follow him. They can't stomach him and might just go AWOL if called onto risk their lives for what they might think is a political maneuver.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:16
EB (stuff...) ID#187109:
Nick@C - thanks for reposting the stochs on gold. I posted that same chart the other day. Got little response. I think the bugs were shocked...........or something. It don't look all that good. As Sheller want to be buying at the BOTTOM of the channel.....not the top. although it doesn't always work that way.......ya gotta love this trading game :- )

D.A. - BROTHER!! Welcome to this........this kitco. tis VERY good to hear from you. Come back to are sorely missed................280 before 310? ( grin ) ( WINK! ) ...

Unleaded gas in my area is $1.25 gallon ( er.....2.54 litres ) ...........slightly further south it is 10¢ more..........fwiw. Aside from some horse racing track gas station it is still the cheapest gas in the world......uh huh.

MikeS - ¿Pepi quiere taco bell?

Good trading all.........

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:09
Cyclist (sentiment) ID#339274:
short Nem 18 1/8

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 11:04
gwyz (@Mike Stewart...) ID#432130:
Copyright © 1998 gwyz/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
...I agree with you about BEARX being a Big Time Bear fund, and a generally big time RISK. However, ( and lets respect each other's opposition here ) , I do not believe this Fall's Market comeback is an indication of Its time to make a Bull Run on stocks again. Not even selected stocks, unless you are that good at short term market timing. I strongly feel this comeback is a dangerous Bubble that *will* burst, and when it does it will take even the best stock investments down with it.

At the present time I only believe in *Actual Physical Ownership of Precious Metals*. I dont, and I mean *firmly* dont believe that now is a good time for any Precious Metal *STOCK MARKET* investments for complicated reasons including deflationary efects on mining operations, and obvious Market manipulation.

So, that brings us back to BEARX, which again, I agree is a risk. But it did perform during a time when Gold stocks should have risen instead of fall as they did and continue to do. So, because I believe in another Market crash REAL soon, I bought back into BEARX at its low NAV.

: )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:56
EJ (What a racket!) ID#45173:
Copyright © 1998 EJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Today, my first try experiment with this Internet stock mania gizmo. Been trying to place a $20 limit order on ( XMCM ) , priced at $14 at the open, as an online trade this a.m. No can do. Call my guy at Fidelity. Says it's Fidelity policy to dissallow online trades of IPO underlying on the first day because of the risks. The stock might open at $14 or at $300, he says. So I ask, what risks? What's the risk if I place a limit order? He says, but people don't, they often place market orders. Coveat emptor, says I. Or, don't let online traders place market orders on the first day. But don't cut us out completely. So how does the price get to $300 on the first day if no one can place an order, I ask? He says that large institutional investors, mutual funds, and very large individual investors can place emormous block trades. So this is a way for folks who already have a ton of money to either make or lose a ton of money? He say, Um, basically.

Is the SEC cool with this?

In the end, I did talk him into taking my order over the phone. Wish me luck. No tears.


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:53
MoReGoLd (@Mooney Re: Below spot Gold) ID#348286:
Good Marketing Do you honestly believe this?
Buy your 1000 ozs. limit and then resell it into the market.......
And Bill Gates is gonna have a bangout sale
on Windows/98 - HaHaHaHaHa
Give me a BREAK...........

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:52
gunrunner (Lotsa spin) ID#354133:
Was it P.T. Barnum who said You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time?

Loss leader = bait and switch = lots of high pressure sales calls.

Count on it.

As for news and analysis, we welcome all inputs. Even from biased sales clerks out to make a buck.

Go Palladium!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:46
Selby (Spud Master) ID#286230:
You raise an interesting point. Outside of flinging missiles and dropping a few bombs at various places has Clinton actually involved the US in anything like a war? I can't recall any.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:43
SDRer (More 'meeting of the mines') ID#290172:
chart 'Convergence'

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:42
Spud Master (@Clinton, Iraq, Iran and North Korea...) ID#273112:
Copyright © 1998 Spud Master/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
We must all remember, Clinton will stop at nothing to protect his power - like any sick addict - he *must* have his constant fix of it. Loosing it must be his greatest fear.

He & his minions must have any number of conflicts on demand scheduled to divert public opinion: the unannouced inspection is Iraq today for example: It's time perfectly to interfere with the subcomitee vote Friday on impeachment.

You can be damn certain that as a full House vote on impeachment draws near, we will be involved in a war somewhere - not just flinging cruise missiles at Somali asprin factories and Afghani caves.

You can be EVEN more certain, that if there is a trial in the Senate, Clinter will have multiple crisis on-going to totally terrorize the American public attention - ground war in Iraq, large-scale bombing of North Korea, massive stock market troubles ... all to save his loathesome hide.

Have no doubt: this used-car salesman conartist would flood the Berlin subways before he suffers any consequences for his violations of the American public and US Constitution.


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:41
Mike Stewart (Bearx makes no sense) ID#270253:
Copyright © 1998 Mike Stewart/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Rube,EJ,Gollum...I can't say this with enough conviction. Find shares in undervalued companies that you like and buy them. If you can't get any at the right price, then just wait patiently. Don't get sucked in by the Bearx hype. Bearx is a stupid fund. 1998 was a tough year overall, but most astute traders made plenty of money ( me included ) . This perma-bear stuff will make you poor. Over time, there are always stocks to buy. The fund manager for Bearx was a screaming bear as the rest of us made a bundle since August. He will never admit that he is wrong and that the underlying philosophy of his fund is flawed. Rydex funds, on the other hand, make no predictions and offers funds for bulls and bears. This makes sense.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:40
MoReGoLd (@BARRICK MAKES $5.50 hostile bid for Argentina (ARP)) ID#348286:
Great news for shareholders, and the rest of the depressed Gold equities market - A big change from some of the incessant Gloom and Doomers that choose to hang their Brass Balls out here............

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:36
gwyz (@Rube...BEARX...) ID#432130:
Copyright © 1998 gwyz/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
During the period between August and October, BEARX performed wonderfully, but it took a 1500 point drop in the Dow to draw that performance. My understanding is that it is basically a poor man's LTCM run type of fund. I got into it one week before the crash, made some money until the Dow bouncback occurred. I cashed out before it could drop below my principle, which it did do the following week.

My problem with BEARX is that a little is gained when the Market goes down, but alot more is lost when the Market up. I didnt like that inconsistancy. I felt that my money was being drained and the Market movement was their vehicle to drain my investment.

However, right now BEARX is at its low. It got there fast because of their practices as I explained above. Never the less, it is now a good buy if you believe, as I do, that the feces will hit the fan after the holidays. I bought back into the fund last Friday. As much as I feel that BEARX is a BIG TIME RISK of your money, I feel that its low will hold. So I guess Im betting on keeping my principle at the very least.

WARNING: I spent the past month warning people not to buy BEARX. It was above 6.50 a share at the time and I knew this low was coming, and I didnt like the way its value dropped faster than the Market comeback.

: )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:30
Mooney* (Toronto Holiday Luncheon - 6 Pak and ALL) ID#348169:
Copyright © 1998 Mooney*/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Reify was one of our originals last summer and that's how I can get away with kidding him so much! 6 Pak - You SORT of confirmed yesterday with a post here, but you still haven't e-mailed me for details @: AAR - Downtown Sheraton - Luncheon Buffet - Second Floor - 12:30-1:00 - reservations in name of Mooney. Another summer original has confirmed as of this morning Sam_A! ( think he was incommunicado for last few weeks. )
AAR - See You All There ( except Reify and his lovely lady who are stuck celebrating Christmas in some Far Off Place close to some little town called Bethleham or some such.
Wish I could be there to say hi to y'all, and wish y'all a Merry Christmas and a healthy prosperous Happy New Year.
Best, Fred and Yvette

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:29
oris (THC) ID#249244:
I do not know, but would expect drop in prices of both
metals very soon...In regard to delay in export quota
papers - it is normal situation in Russia, everybody
well connected over there wants piece of action...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:29
Cage Rattler (Busy testing very important support level in $/yen) ID#33184:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:27
Gollum (@EJ ) ID#35571:
Sometimes there's a lag.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:19
SDRer (Yen, Gold, Silver) ID#290172:
For this moment in time, it is necessary that we view select currencies and the PMs as a family...who are in the midst of planning a holiday reunion, and having some small difficulties with scheduling...
See chart 'Silver Trails'
Incidently, these charts are category-colored coded. That is why they look rather 'fanciful'. {:- ) )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:17
Cyclist (HAL) ID#339274:
confounding the analysts,except the chartists : )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:16
Aldebaran (tolerant1 Their Bank, My money) ID#256365:
Copyright © 1998 Aldebaran/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I wonder, could the following be considered conspiracy to structure transactions to avoid CTR? Now I have to rewrite the whole thing...

RE: Cash Transaction Reporting: Could a person simply cash their paychecks, and place their cash in a safe deposite box? Keeping the lowest balences possible in their checking and saving account to cover their expenses? Could a person simply opt out the the banking system for the most part. If ever a major purchase came up that needed funds added to that accounts to cover, could the person deposite what was needed request a CTR form and explain that the source of the cash was from a safe deposite box? The CTR regulations don't seem that oppressive, they only seem to open the door for more restrictive regulations, such as the know your subject regulations. Could the Know your Customer law if widly reported trigger a banking crisis?

disclaimer: gold is baaad, paper is goood, guns are baaaad, extra laws are gooood, people are baaad, government is goooood

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:14
Selby (A little more trouble for Royal Oak) ID#286230:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:12
tolerant1 (CPO@AU, Namaste' gulp and a puff at ya...go here and read and read and read...) ID#20359: let it load o'tay...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:12
EJ (Tracking Deflation) ID#45173:
US Q3 Current Account Deficit Record $61.30 Bln Vs Rev Q2 $56.69 Bln

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:10
Mooney* (@Reify) ID#348169:
Copyright © 1998 Mooney*/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Reify - What the heck you complaining about?
You can practically fit that place you call home in a shoe box. Man - you're so squeesed that you don't even need binoculars to see from one side of the country ( the Med ) to the other ( Golan ) . Hey folks, Reify can take a Morning bus from Haifa, shop and eat lunch in Tel Aviv, and be home on the same bus in time for dinner. Who the heck needs to pollute the countryside with all those fumes when you can practically walk everywhere. ( Unless of course you are using the fumes as a secret weapon because they are blowing east towards Saddam. )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:05
CPO@AU (tolerant1@ your money or theirs? ID#20359) ID#329186:
I cease to be amazed at the USA & its laws # please tell me is there a law that states all ( except the PPT of course ) US citizens MUST put their money in a bank or equivalent?

go gold & silver

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:04
EJ (Gollum) ID#45173:
I'm miffed at BEARX these days. Usually when the market goes down, BEARX goes up. I don't mind when BEARX goes down when the market goes up. That's expected. But yesterday, the market fell and BEARX fell, too. I'm far more happy with my Rydex Ursa URYX.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:04
Cyclist (bonds) ID#339274:
are just primo.big run coming up : )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 10:04
tolerant1 (TYoung, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...I think ye be neither poor nor fool...but...) ID#20359:
just could not resist pickin at ya...too much coffee percolating in my veins this morning...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:57
gwyz (RJ...Manipulation...09:22) ID#432130:
You have hit the nail right on the head. Good insight! : )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:54
esotericist (@Mooney - Point Taken - wishful thinking perhaps but...) ID#224230:
.. how foolish of me to forget the real 10th reason.

You see, I do believe that sometime last week Gollum finally got his lever labelling all figured out....He'd been under the false impression that it was a diesel locomotive engine but now he knows it's actually a steam engine - grimy and somewhat grimy adn grubby having not had a good fast run for some 18 years - but in perfect working order nevertheless, and now all the levers and dials are making perfect sense.
Pssshhhhhhh toot toot.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:50
Cyclist (sold) ID#339274:
standing aside

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:47
TYoung ( nice to this poor fool...) ID#317193:
AG has not confided in me...I only speculate from his comments made in public. Got to have hope for what I believe to be the truth...honest money always follows fiat money...history will not fail to repeat.



Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:47
tolerant1 (Is it YOUR money or THEIR money...what a crock...the government gone mad...yup...) ID#20359:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:45
Cyclist (Volume) ID#339274:
is not impressive,doesn't look healthy.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:44
Mooney* (When Pigs Will Fly and Golden Eagles Soar!) ID#348169:
Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:31
esotericist ( 10 reasons GOLD ( 1 ) 999 ) ID#224230:
ALL of those reasons have done very little to move Gold in the recent past. We need a sea change in sentiment to get the ball rolling, but when it does - LOOK OUT! As Gollum so rightly alludes - It will be a monster train that NO ONE will get in the way of for many a moon.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:41
lakshmi (fear of gold (@esotericist and folks here)) ID#26367:
Copyright © 1998 lakshmi/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Reading the messages here this a.m. brought two questions to mind: 1 ) What is the difference between gold and oil? 2 ) What are we up against in the U.S. at this point? And even a 3 ) What would Greenspan be doing if he were younger--maybe he hasn't changed his convictions, but just has he let them fall beside the road? ( Unfortunately you see some people just start wanting more time to enjoy what years they have left--as they get up in the 70's--keeping active and pulling things together, but not really activating the changes needed to create the best future. A lot of his cohorts are now deceased, although Ayn Rand has left a legacy enjoyed worldwide. )
1 ) I would say the intrinsic value of gold is deeper than that of oil. Both have practical value, but for all the usual reasons, gold is money, oil is a useful commodity. The price of oil is depressing POG, Ag prices, along with the CB debacles, selling and Asian flu contagion. I could see other resources replacing oil over the next 20 years--wind, solar, etc., albeit slowly of course.
2 ) There isn't enough economy in the world to keep much going. You see no economy in government, little in the other major arenas. I was out shopping last few weekends and the prices of goods was pretty cheap! You don't have to earn a lot in the US to buy a lot, actually, so that salaries staying the same is OK in a way, you can still buy more, can't you? At least retail. A lot of shopper, but as many profits? People buy weird stuff, of little value, food that is worthless for health for instance! When I was up in DC in October I ate out a couple of times and love ordering from new menus--what I can't cook at home becuase too expensive to prepare or not available in home area. A kind of economy of dining out--get the most for your money. Sitting next to an IMF group I happened to overhear them ordering--really wacky stuff that you could get at Burger King and/or fix any day. I kept thinking what a waste--go to a great restaurant and spend high prices for something of really less value! I see overbuilding, frantic businesses, etc. A house of cards always collapses--its just a matter of time how long it holds up! You hear on L. Rukeyser now that 3 months predictions is average, a long-term buy is 6 months to a year! No concept of the future. People are not thinking, What will happen?
Even if the price of gold does not go higher, still if we have profits we can buy more and gain in worth. Oil may not return to old highs, gold also may or may not, however that does not change the intrinsic value of gold holdings as insurance. Hopefully insurance does not need to be used. You can bet on the price changes and gain profits, but you can also buy the stuff ( or the mines or the funds that own the stuff ) and be gaining at any price. That is how I see it, even if the bottom is not in. We must think globilization process of economy, the goals of free individuals all over the world, not just here and there. And also the family--there was not enough respect for the family in Indonesia, Russia, so values collapsed. Hopefully this can be prevented in the US.
We must create more family to be enjoyed and to create economy of production. If you want to impeach the Clintons I notice that James Davidson's National Taxpayer's Union is accepting checks for that purpose ( as his retirement could total over 6,000,000 if he only resigns or gets a slap ) . They are in Arlington VA at 703 683 5700. Regards!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:40
Reify (You had to go and remind me) ID#413109:
Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:13
Crystal Ball ( unleaded gasoline ) ID#340392:

The prices are about $2.50-2.75/gal. I didn't calculate
exactly, but it's close.
Go put that in you tank, and blow it!
Prices of cars, to add to the dilemma, are 100% taxed, for the
smaller models and 200% for the larger luxury models.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:32
Cyclist (nem) ID#339274:
long 18 3/8

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:32
tolerant1 (TYoung, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...whats this? Greenspan gave a speech ) ID#20359:
to you...privately...wherein he disclosed his ultimate golden plan...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:32
xau5 (DA welcome back. ) ID#210163:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:31
esotericist (10 reasons GOLD (1)999) ID#224230:
Copyright © 1998 esotericist/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
1. WJC Impeachment more likely - 6 months uncertainty to start 1999
2. Saddam getting irksome again - Time for more Kofi.
3. North Koreans at it again - are they weird or what ?
4. Increasing evidence that UK business confidence at serious lows.
5. Imminent UK Rate Cut. Surely ?
6. German/Euro taxation-political uncertainties. Who is in charge ?
7. Euro second guessing time - countdown
8. Even more pessimistic Japanese Business Confidence Report
9. Weak Christmas sales data imminent
10. Plenty of other technical reasons - Rhino's included.

Is this a Goldbug forum.
Yes ?
Oh Good - I must be hanging out at the right URL then!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:24
IDT (DA is that you? Welcome back!!) ID#228136:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:22
Crystal Ball (@ Mike Sheller- been buyin' the bottom of the market forever !!!) ID#340392:
You too? Shoot, I've been buyin' every bottom in gold since $380/oz, and buyin' AOL puts at every top since it was $37.50/share. Mercury is retrograde, hope the stock market snake swallows its tail by 12/18. :- )

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:22
RJ (..... Manipulation by Press Release .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

And the Russian's are good at this, no?
The most interesting quote of this morning's news
In which Norilsk cannot get its export quota raised or approved is:

The documents are stuck in the presidential administration

Perhaps if there were someone to fire
Yelstin could walk his feeble walk into his office
Fire a few folks ( which will be rehired next week )
And then sign all the export quotas
With shots of vodka all around
Yelstin would then go back to his coffin
To await the inevitable
This would surely get
Copious amount of the metal to the market


JD -

Gold will fall, whites will rise.
My post was in direct response to another post
Insisting that gold would rise and silver and platinum would fall
I could not see the reason for this other poster's concerns
The statement is still comfortable enough to stick with

So I will

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:20
Gollum (The Great Legend) ID#35571:
The first and second wall, the first and second bond spike, the swoop and surge of the silver falcon, the rebirth of the golden Phoenix, and other signs weave their web...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:18
Cyclist (FYI) ID#339274:
PDG is making a clear triple bottom on the hourly chart.Long we

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:16
D.A. ( ID#7568:

Sensors are picking up a little noise in the silver arena and it is possible that a new game may be afoot. It may also be an effort by those holding large quantities of physical to put a good mark on the board at 12/31/98.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:13
Crystal Ball (unleaded gasoline) ID#340392:
New York State must have the highest taxes in the USA. Most places regular unleaded ( 87 octane ) is between $1.06 and $1.15 in New York. Boggles the mind when you realize the stuff is trading wholesale for 35 ¢
I think it is about 73 ¢ in New Jersey. At least I'm not payin' as much as they do in Israel !! Of course, Reify probably uses public transportation.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:09
Cage Rattler (Mike Sheller - any additional explanations about the rhino horn ) ID#33184:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:07
Mooney* (@rube) ID#348169:
Het Rube! ( Been Dying to say that! ) Don't sweat it. In Canada nost people are still paying the American EQUIVALENT of between $1.75 and $2.50 depending on which part of the country they live in.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:07
esotericist (@Mike Sheller - AG) ID#224230:
Ditto - I was somewhat generalising. I do think however he has fallen amongst theives for the moment and may only attempt to set things straight on his way out. When ?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:02
TYoung (Sheller....AG) ID#317193:
I speculate the man has not lost his roots and has plans to leave the world better off before he retires. His last speach was more than a least to me.


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 09:01
Mooney* (Golden Oldie) ID#348169:
Don't gamble; take all your savings and buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it.
---Will Rogers

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:58
rube (gas) ID#333127:
Boston area,upumpit=.95,theypumpit=.99, my xperience

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:54
Mooney* (@Mike and Gollum and IDT) ID#348169:
Mike I think that is what Gollum was indicating on the Silver ( buy near Bottom ) , but it has not quite turned yet, bands have not crossed and often lines can continue sideways near bottom for awhile - No?
IDT - May be a local record but someone hear posted .69 the other day from Arkansas or Texas.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:54
Gollum (@Mike Sheller ) ID#35571:
Are you sure it wasn't the rat?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:54
Tantalus (@Auric - your 17:51 of yesterday: IRA withdrawals on 1/4/99) ID#370236:
All your reasoning makes good sense to me. Do you know how long the process takes from a request for withdrawal 'till your check is in hand?

Wanna really roll the dice? Only if you consider your employer to be
stable and trustworthy...

Defer all 1999 compensation 'till 1/4/00. Get some physical, live off
the rest of your withdrawal, avoid the tax hit, pay only 10% penalty.
If things go due south quickly in year 2000, you still have your physical
and all other promises to pay will be circling the drain anyway.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:53
Mike Sheller (estoricist) ID#348257:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:51
Gollum (@Mike Sheller ) ID#35571:
I agree.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:51
Mike Sheller (gollum) ID#348257:
in Arkansas it's been the year of the Snake all of '98.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:50
Mike Sheller (esotericist) ID#348257:
Copyright © 1998 Mike Sheller/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Alan Greenspan is a bit of an enigma here. Maybe an enigma wrapped in a tortilla ( if the Mexican crisis flares up again ) . In his earlier days he was one of the staunchest supporters of limited government and a gold standard - a TRUE gold-backed value-for-value note issue. He was totally against government debt and bond issues, deficit spending, etc. He was totally against, then, everything he SEEMS to have become now. Is this a case of a goldbug running the Federal Reserve and doing everything he can to counterbalance what WOULD have been had he not been there? Or is this a tragic case out of an Ayn Rand novel ( Guy Francon ( ? ) in The Fountainhead comes to mind ) where a man sells out noble i9deals for power? I dunno. But I do know that along with Jack Kemp, Greenspan is the only public official who has openly hinted at a desire to see some kind of gold standard reinstated. Bizarre. Almost estoric.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:49
Gollum (1999 year of the snake) ID#35571:
Actually, in chinese astrology, it's the year of the rabbit.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:43
Mike Sheller (gollum) ID#348257:
On the mid-am silver chart, you gotta LOVE that stochastic! You wanna buy it when the momentum in at the bottom of the range, not the top.

AND - notice the SILVER RHINO as well! We crack $5 and it's off to the races.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:43
esotericist (@PCM - esoteric philosophical questions ...) ID#224230:
Copyright © 1998 esotericist/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The fear of physical gold may symbolize a deeper fear of the loss of power and of facing the question of who one is.

...Hate to quibble PCM, but the esoteric stuff's my patch round here actually ! : )

Joking aside - I'm myself beginning to conclude that for the market-controlling-rigging Masters of the Universe ( Greenspan-Rubin Wallstreet buddies ) to LET GO and allow GOLD to reassume its rightful true value will symbolize, for them and us, their ultimate and total impotence in the face of nature - human and solar systemic.

And make a mockery of EVERYTHING they all think they stand for when they each of them look daily in their silvered mirrors...

Which is why it will be THE ABSOLUTE LAST THING THEY DO - all other legal and illegal manipulations having come to nothing.

Which is of course what we're all watching so wearily here on Kitco. Nice post PCM !

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:41
Mike Sheller (Mooney) ID#348257:
It's a buying opportunity, I tell ya!

I bought the very bottom in gold myself! Each and every one!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:40
Gollum (@rube) ID#35571:
It's a no load fund, but I don't know the phone number.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:36
Mooney* (@Mike) ID#348169:
Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:19
Mike Sheller ( jims ) ID#348257:
It is precisely when no one ( noone ) sees any hope or redeeming future for an asset
that it is ready to rise. The gloom over gold ( and oil ) is simply wonderful for anyone
interested in acquiring these assets. The psychology certainly qualifies for a bottom in

Yah, But Mike, WE've been saying this exact same thing here for 18 months!

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:28
PCM (gold) ID#169332:
Copyright © 1998 PCM/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

I can understand APH's view, to trade looking for higher S&P. However, this Monday's and Tuesday's divergences make me wonder if the Dow can hold up much longer. T- bonds and the dollar could fall very fast ( and the Yen and Mark rise ) . Maybe the momentum is not so strong as most believe; and the manipulation by the Fed ( via futures ) is not capable of containing a severe drop? Not least, gold price above 300 ( or even 298? ) might not find much resistence for awhile. Possible to take out the market's October low in four weeks or less? A case can be made. The Fed's lowering interest rates on December 17th wouldn't count for much.
We don't know the whole or the moment ( the same? ) . Soros' analysis of the situation ( his book ) has the pieces - no better put than is expressed daily on this forum. I am beginning to suspect that the next year may prove more volatile than we can imagine, that this summer was just a taste of it. A series of unexpected shocks: An opportunity to make true gold. The gold we create by questioning who we are, and reversing the tendency to look outside, where we are not. The fear of physical gold may symbolize a deeper fear of the loss of power and of facing the question of who one is.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:16
IDT (Gas Price) ID#228136:
I think I have the record low for gas prices posted here. A local Racetrack station here in Louisiana has gas for 74.9.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:13
Aldebaran (the Yen, the Yen) ID#256365:
Yen @ 117.80 is this important to gold?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:07
rube (Gollum) ID#333127:
BEARX fund,first I've seen of it,load fund? ph.#? Thanks

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:05
Gollum (On the other hand, silver is getting close...) ID#35571:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:04
Gollum (Don't you just hate that stochastic?) ID#35571:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 08:00
Gollum (Double bottom?) ID#35571:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:58
Fred(@Vienna) () ID#185448:
Mike Sheller
Your really named your dog Pepi As about 104 percent of the austrian population would turn his/her head if you call Pepi, I see this as a major offense against the integrity of my country, so I have no other choice as to support Prezlintons decision to nuke your backyard. Sorry...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:53
Gollum (Soros moving his jaw) ID#35571:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:40
Donald (Russian platinum news and other metals comment from London) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:36
BillD (dern keyboard!!) ID#258427:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:32
BillD (Esotericist...not comes the retribution....) ID#258427:
Hide yo face

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:30
Mike Sheller (esotericist - may I say it for all of us...) ID#348257:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:29
esotericist (OK Then...) ID#224230:
A psycho pervert is walking along hand in hand with a little girl in the deep dark woods. The little girl says...I'm scared Uncle Jack. The psycho pervert says...You're scared!...I'm gonna have to find my way out of here alone...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:26
Mike Sheller (Tort) ID#348257:
The shower comes when we pop the champagne corks for gold!

We'll all drink to that.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:26
Tortfeasor (esotericist) ID#37463:
Post it. It is easier to ask forgiveness than get permission.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:24
esotericist (@Mike Sheller - Assuming you're a babe, I suppose it depends on what you look like.) ID#224230:
Incidently, may I post a particularly black-humour joke here on Kitco ?

I forget what the protocols say about using bandwidth frivolously and expect the yellow/black gold price hit to take at least 15 minutes... ?

It's a wicked joke that arrived in my email just back then...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:24
Mike Sheller (Breaking story) ID#348257:
The AP reported this morning that Pepi Sheller has issued a terse and angry response concerning threats made by the White House and his alleged secretive underground backyard activities. Responding to questions about Clinton's rumored posdsible resignation shouted by reporters through the back yard gate, Pepi growled that Clinton would be long out of the White House in any event, while Pepi would still be burying things in his own back yard.

There was no comment from the President's press secretary.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:23
Tortfeasor (Cage Rattler) ID#37463:
I doubt that Clinton will resign and share his light with Gore. I wish he would resign but Gore the tree Whore? Just for kicks check out the CNN poll on impeachment. Interesting that 50,000 voters are evenly split on whether Clinton should be booted from office or left alone. Quite a different story from Gallup's polsters. Check it out at

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:20
Tortfeasor (Mike Sheller) ID#37463:
I hope that Rino baby that the gold market has just given birth to has a great tusk. I want to see that $310 pretty badly. Thanks for the birth announcement. When is the shower for the mother and young child?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:19
Mike Sheller (jims) ID#348257:
It is precisely when no one ( noone ) sees any hope or redeeming future for an asset that it is ready to rise. The gloom over gold ( and oil ) is simply wonderful for anyone interested in acquiring these assets. The psychology certainly qualifies for a bottom in both.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:17
Mike Sheller (esotericist) ID#348257:
I would think it would be bad manners ANYWHERE to just walk in on somebody's bath party unannounced, wouldn't you?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:16
jims (Mr. Sheller) ID#253418:
Have my eyes on the same $297+ area. I suspect that when gold does start moving it will be very irregularly - but as I said many hours ago - like the strenght in the DOW these last few years anticipated by virtually nobody I think gold will find a way of amazing us all.

When it starts one needs to be on board willing to buy good breaks of which there will be many, IMHO.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:15
esotericist (Breaking News on the BBC) ID#224230:
UN Weapons Inspectors have been refused access to the Offices of the ruling BAATH ( Iraqi Political Party ) Site. Apparently they turned round and left of their own accord when the people there requested a written request to inspect. Vague Details as yet...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:10
Mike Sheller (It's a, no, a's a bull!) ID#348257:
Copyright © 1998 Mike Sheller/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The new bull market in gold has sprouted its first Rhino. It has formed in the price chart from the August low and while just a baby, indicates that a close above 297.50 will send gold to around 310 in the next 2 weeks before a pause. Rhino price formation in the gold chart are very bullish, and indicate that gold is gathering its momentum slowly in triangle formations. Just connect the top since the rally off the low ( ears of the Rhino ) and the secondary rally afterwards ( horn of the Rhino ) and you get a short term downtrend line that is waiting to be broken. IF it can't do it, price will then decline for 2 weeks into the apex of the triangle formed by the pattern.

Am I making sense? Don't I always?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:01
jims (To THC ) ID#253418:
Copyright © 1998 jims/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Have a call into my source about his play in PD. I left a message asking if he had forgotten his promise to tell me when he pulled the trigger for his partners re PD.

I'd say if the rally holds today that has begun in Europe, or rather began in Europe about 2 hours ago, we've seen the lows. PD may be the one commodity that can with stand the deflationary trends because of its relative tight supply and essential usage.

PT gives a buy signal over 351 which is about where it is. Globex trades tonight are very thin and the ask is up at 355.

I've go my toe in oil through FLC, but I fear the fundlementals may contain rallies in that sector for some time. Earnings will be dropping pretty fast in the next few quarters. Took a flyer on what looks like a technical reversal in FLC. We need more snow in NY.

South African golds are telling an odd story. the JSE All Gold is down to 936 filling a gap left Monday and the Rand has sunk to 6.05 to the dollar. Higher gold prices in Rand will help their dollar earnings but there seems much resistance to a recovery in share prices.

Gold ( and silver ) could pop at any time - keeping a small position and my eyes open.

Also interesting tonight is the relative greater strenght in the 2 year notes vs. the long bond.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 07:01
Cage Rattler (Is Pres. Clinton about to announce his resignation?) ID#33184:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 06:54
Mike Sheller (velvet underground) ID#348257:
Copyright © 1998 Mike Sheller/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
We received an official White House message by email the other day clearly meant for Pepi. It seems the President is very much concerned about what Pepi has been burying underground in the backyard, and has threatened air strikes on same unless the property is thrown open to inspection. Pepi dutifully growled at the gate, protective as Pomerians can be, sending the inspectors packing back to Tehran, or Langley, or Mineola, or wherever they came from.

We figure after Iraq and North Korea get the hell smacked out of them one of these days, there might be a cruise missile or two left over to send in our direction, so we're stocking the basement up with water, dried food, beans, lentils, blankets, candles, etc. We just have to move out the water, dried food, beans, lentils, blankets, candles, etc. that we stored up for Y2k to make room. There's always something.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 06:50
THC (To Oris) ID#367411:
Any idea what is up with Pd & Pt? Problem with shipments from you know where, or?

Since this must be happening in Europe right now.....



Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 06:38
oris (RJ) ID#249244:
Thanks for reply, brother RJ.
I'm happy that #2 and #3 can be completely
eliminated from consideration. It is also nice
that you did not insist on #4 and #5...

In regard to attention your offer attracted - you
got to realize it looks so bright and shiny and sure-fire
that I just can not eat it w/o some thought...although
100 other people did...Guess, that is just my nature...

Thanks again.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 06:25
Gambler (Aurator) ID#432223:
Copyright © 1998 Gambler/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Hi there mate down under. I love you guys. I'll converse w/ you if you're sober enough. How about it? How many fingers am I holding up? I'll give you a hint at the bottom of the page.

You guessed it - I don't like socialism. As an American, I like individualism. I know that's a strange concept, but our nation was built on this unique American characteristic. Yes, there are socialist here, but guys like me vote against them. All political parties in America, trade union leaders, and practically all leaders of public opinion are committed to the system of private enterprise and to the political philosophy of individualism.

The United States of America is not torn by conflict on the issue whether the country is to become socialist or to remain one in which most of its enterprises are carried on by private persons. The people of the United States of America have made up their minds about the country's basic policy long ago, and we have always been successful of getting to where we want to be. We make things happen.

In Australia, however, there has been a fundamental conflict among those who seek the people's support. The Labor party, is committed to the socialist objective. The other group, which is ranged against the

Labor party, is pledged, if not in written words, at least in action, to oppose socialism, and to preserve opportunity and the freedom of the individual.

In the United States of America, the home of individualism, there is a substantial amount of planning. Each State has its own planning board, and there is a national planning board to guide and direct national activities. The existence of such planning authorities has made possible the Tennessee Valley Power

Project, and other great projects for irrigation, forestation and the like. This planning and development have taken place in a country where the bulk of the people subscribe to the philosophy of individualism.

There is a great difference between socialism and national planning of the kind that I have described. Socialism, as honorable members who are pledged to a socialist platform should know, means the ownership and control by the State of the means of production, distribution and exchange. That is a very different thing from State planning, State guidance and State assistance.

Socialism in practice means the creation of a police state, the restriction of opportunity and the freedom of the individual, and the wholesale suppression of human rights and liberties. In practice, the socialist state never reaches the stage envisaged by the idealists and Utopians, who believe that socialism can lead to the creation of a vast, cooperative commonwealth.

It's about time your government realized that a great many people in your country, who supported the Labor party in the past, have awakened to the dangers of socialism. They have seen what has happened in other countries and their recent experience in Australia

has convinced them that socialism can lead only to the creation of a centralized bureaucracy, which crushes opportunity and restricts the liberty of the individual.

That is why they answered with a resounding

No the Government's request for a permanent transfer of power to control rents and prices. As a result your country's Labor party, is in the process of re-examining its policy on this matter. It would be for the good of Australia if all political parties were to agree that

the people do not want socialism, because it would then be possible to agree upon a basic economic policy.

Here's your Big hint as to how many fingers I'm holding up; it's a number between 0 and 2. Tell your mate down under Nick that America is spelled with a c and not a k. Now you intellectuals can assemble and moll this over.

Carry on.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 06:25
THC (To Jim) ID#367411:
Copyright © 1998 THC/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Hi again!

How goes the PD and PT wars and the cheap 99 gold calls....

Pd: Stopped out in 1 day........quite the drunken mule......will probably stay away until we see what is amazingly cheap levels, where ever that may be.......

Pt: Holding Aug 99 yen/Pt, worried about the dollar, but time & a spot premium are on my side.....

Calls:Silver calls appear to offer more bang for the buck if the PMs move...I have also found out calls are another game that need to be studied in depth before dipping time for that though, so will make one gambler's purchase while the time is ripe.....

Good luck, and don't forget to let us know when Pd is ON!



Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 05:45
jims (Rally Alert) ID#252391:
Palladium and Platinum have jumped up this morning and OIL has managed to get back to unchanged. PD up $8, PT up $5 - gold is 50 cents higher.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 05:39
Aldebaran (aurator the IMF more than it seems mozel too!) ID#240155:
Copyright © 1998 Aldebaran/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I noticed several things at the site. It mentions that the chairman is by tradition non-American, thats fine, but it then says the person in charge of the World Bank is by tradition a US National. You would have expected the word citizen, but they where careful.

More telling at one point they use the phrase finage and weight in reference to the US Dollar. Gee, is my paper dollar .900 fine? There were other subtle little things but they are of little interest to me at the moment, perhaps later I will want to zoom in and look close for the signatures of the NWO, but at the moment, I only wish to understand their mission as they state it, which is scary enough.

I used to point out when people said that the US$ was backed by gold that it wasn't. They would invaribly ask whats it backed by then? I would say nothing and they wouldn't believe me. Turns out I was wrong, the dollar is backed by Special Drawing Rights. SDR's are however backed by the US$. Neat how that works. The more I learn, the more I am astonished.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 05:34
Spock (Beaming Up Now.....) ID#210114:
Live Long and Prosper.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 05:23
Spock (rhody: IMF Gold) ID#210114:
Copyright © 1998 Spock/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
From the IMF gold page.

The IMF holds 3,217,341 kilograms of gold ( 103.4 million fine ounces ) at
designated depositories, valued in the IMF’s financial statements at SDR 3.6 billion on the basis of SDR 35 per ounce ( except for a minor amount accepted by the Fund in 1992 in partial settlement of a member’s overdue obligations, and valued at the then-prevailing market price ) . Valued at current market prices, the IMF’s holdings amount to almost $30 billion. These holdings represent the balance of the IMF’s stock of gold after the gold auctions and the restitution of gold to members in the period 1976-80.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 05:22
Donald (Russia jittery as ruble presses roll out US$700 million worth in 8 weeks) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 05:15
esotericist (Gold Skool - What are we learning this week ?) ID#224230:
Copyright © 1998 esotericist/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I caught the goldbug fever about 3 months ago - Dollar Up-Gold Down, DOW Up-Gold Down etc. And got all excited when we breached 300 for a brief moment there. Then I lost a little faith and got somewhat narked when it fell back to a little less than I paid for it...and the Thai Baht appreciated...etc. ouch. : (

Now I've read everything there is to know about it and it's price and read about the Tao of Gold, too - the more you know about it as a commodity the less you know about it as a form of money etc. A kind of Heisenburg uncertainty principle. Which is either the best of both worlds of the worst of both worlds.

The worst of both when getting hammered for being a supposedly oversupplied commodity and NOT a particularly useful form of money ( no interest to be earned etc.... )

And in the last 3 weeks though I've been learning about deflation in its various hues and about the CRB index..down down down. But gold has held it's ground. Mmmmm - seems Gold is behaving like a form of money at last... which is about all I have to smile about. Let's hope other people notice this little fact and forget about its commodity persona.

Because when they do, we'll finally have the best of both worlds.

Gold, demonstrably NOT a poorly performing supply-demand commodity NOR a poor form of money. i.e. it represents no debt.
Which is about when my ship comes home. Full of loot. Golden loot.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 05:13
Donald (Microsoft admits to Y2K glitch in Windows 98) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 05:11
aurator () ID#257148:
Yes, a Tobin Tax is most effective. However the revenue gatherers are always suspect {coming, as I do, from a long lineage of Privateers} provided it is not passed on as a tax on consumption.

I am afraid that none of our gobmints have learnt that the ONLY way to put the brakes on a deflationary recession is by DECREASING taxation, and INCREASING gobmint spending. Looks like our damned fool gobmints are gonna get it wrong again.

Ti Yi Yipppee.....

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 05:10
jims (To THC) ID#252391:
Copyright © 1998 jims/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
How goes the PD and PT wars and the cheap 99 gold calls....

Glaciers...yes, I suppose change is all relative.

Two things I've recently noticed is one that CNBC ASIA no longer runs its program ASIAIN CRISIS and secondly, they are now talking about commodity deflation. Again, two harbingers that things may change, but again, anticipating it before seeing change of trend technicals is a frustrating and dangerous business - one to which I have too often sucumbed.

Over capacity, over supply, bad debts, deflationary stuff abounds with little blips along the way - that is the picture, now, US Bonds below 5% says it all...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 05:07
Donald (Saudi prince wants a stake in the LTCM hedge fund) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 05:04
aurator () ID#257148:
Copyright © 1998 aurator/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Many other posters besides your 'umble servant and SDRer have trodden the IMF track. What you can read at their site now is different from what I read 18 months ago. My Hard drive is toast. The site changed. Clues and informations that were once available have subsequently been erased, removed from scrutiny. SDRer, who has far more patience and deftness of thought than I, has been pursuing this perfidious spawn of the NWO, the IMF for a little while.
You may still buy shares, at least in theory, in the BIS. The IMF, however, is more mercurial..

Brought to you by:


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:58
Donald (@Aurator) ID#26793:
The 1% tax would cool some wild markets and crimp the style of derivatives traders. It is a difficult one to pass on to consumers. Not a bad idea. Buried in that same post is a call to allow the 11 Euro countries to increase spending by borrowing, a very bad idea.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:52
Aldebaran (Donald, not as a member of current IMF) ID#240155:
I am only beginning to learn, but I am nearly certain that most of the proposals you mentioned would violate parts of the articles of agreement of the IMF. So either the IMF would have to change or the Euro would not be a member of the IMF. I don't know how likely either possibility is.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:52
Goldbug23 (Auric - your 03:21 url is a good read) ID#432148:
I believe Jackson is correct. The credit and derivitive bubbles can carry us only so far and the day is approaching when they will bust and look out below.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:51
Donald (Normandy news) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:51
Spock (CRB Vertically Challenged) ID#210114:
Copyright © 1998 Spock/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Tuesday December 8 6:01 PM ET

Commodity Price Index Slides To New Low

By Clive McKeef

NEW YORK ( Reuters ) - Virtually all agricultural and industrial commodity prices ended lower
Tuesday, pushing the Commodity Research Bureau price index of 17 traded commodities down to
new 26-year lows.

The index lost another 1.3 percent to end at 192.38 points, its lowest level since 1972.

``Recent economic indicators suggest even the U.S. economy is slowing a little, as growth slows in
the rest of the world, meaning demand for commodities remains weak,'' said Bill O'Neill, director of
commodity research at Merrill Lynch in New York.

On the New York Mercantile Exchange, crude oil for January delivery ended down 17 cents at
$11.30 a barrel, after seeing a new 12-year low at $10.82 a barrel last week.

Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Abdullah Monday urged member states of the Gulf Cooperation
Council to take more action to help support oil prices, which are at their lowest levels in 25 years in
inflation-adjusted terms.

But overnight a senior Gulf official said the six council members -- Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the United
Arab Emirates, Qatar, Oman and Bahrain -- were expected only to recommend extending existing
current oil-output cuts to the end of 1999.

Producers agreed earlier this year to withdraw 3.1 million barrels per day from the world market in
a bid to stop oil prices falling further. Of this, members of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting
Countries agreed to contribute cuts of 2.6 million barrels per day.

But the cuts failed to lift prices as some producers did not fully comply with their output cut
commitments, and demand for oil has weakened as the world economy as slowed.

Chicago Board of Trade soybean futures sank to two-week lows, pressured by forecasts for rain in
the dry crop areas of Brazil.

Soybeans for January delivery closed 5-1/2 cents a bushel lower at $5.71.

According to private meteorologists Weather Services Corp., scattered showers and thunderstorms
were expected to develop throughout Brazil's soybean belt Wednesday and continue Thursday.
Rainfall amounts of 0.5 to 1.5 inch ( 1 to 4 cm ) were expected.

``We're just following the weather,'' said Dan Cekander, head of grain research for FIMAT Futures
Inc. in Chicago. ''Forecasts are more bearish.''

Corn futures also closed lower on news of slow exports.

South Korea's Big Feed Mills passed on tenders to buy 64,000 tons of Chinese or U.S. No.3
yellow corn due to high prices, traders in Seoul said.

Corn for December delivery closed 1-1/4 cents lower at $2.14 a bushel.

On the New York Board of Trade, CSCE cocoa futures posted losses for a third session in a row
on concerns about ample supplies.

March cocoa fell $21 per metric ton to end at $1,433 a ton.

``The fact of the matter is that supplies seem to be ample and we have plenty of stocks in the U.S.
and Europe,'' said Prudential Securities analyst Arthur Stevenson.

``There's also been a pickup in West African arrivals,'' he said. ``The market seems to be
dominated by negative seasonal factors.''

On the New York Mercantile Exchange, COMEX February gold ended down $1.40 an ounce at
$295.50 an ounce, while March silver lost 0.3 cent to $4.805 an ounce.

The threat of further gold sales by European central banks, after the introduction of the Euro
currency next year, continued to weigh on the gold market, analysts said.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:46
Spock (Left wing music to my ears!!!) ID#210114:
Thanx for that last post Donald. Warmed the cockles of my heart.

Live Long and Prosper.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:45
aurator (if 400 economists want a 1% tax, will 800 want a 2% tax?) ID#257148:
I've not read your last link, I'm counting sheeps..but, I've always thought that the Tobin Tax is a rational tax in an irrational free market.


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:41
Donald (400 economists call for a 1% tax on all cross border currency transactions) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:37
Spock (She loves you, yeah yeah yeah......) ID#210114:
A moment's silence for John Lennon; murdered today 18 years ago.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:34
Donald (Morning currency news, CRB at 26 year low, global deflation etc.) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:30
Spock (Beaming In......) ID#210114:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:29
sorex (Trading by season) ID#276230:
Seasonal expectations

slain by blizzards

Poor trader.


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:09
sharefin (Dabchick) ID#284255:
Could you please let me know when you last posted the weekly data for the lease rates and your Dabchick index.
Due to Kitco being down over the weekend I missed them.

Latest Yardini Report...

In my latest Y2K REPORTER
I examine corporate progress by studying Y2K budget data available in some of
the third quarter SEC filings. I found 315 of the 415 S&P 500 companies
currently showing a third quarter report on the SEC’s Edgar database, which
reported the total estimated cost of the Y2K project and also how much has
been spent so far.

I believe that there must be a good direct correlation between the
percentage of budget spent and progress in Y2K remediation. If this
assumption is correct, then many companies have a great deal of work to do
in a very short period of time before the Y2K dreadline. Indeed, all
told, the companies in my sample collectively have spent only 42% of their
budgets as of the end of the third quarter. Here are some of my other

1 ) On average, the S&P 500 industry that is at the top of the
spending-to-budget progress list is the financial sector, with a ratio of
53.3%. It is followed by capital goods ( 45.6% ) , health care ( 42.2% ) ,
consumer cyclicals ( 41.8% ) , consumer staples ( 41.5% ) , transports ( 40.0% ) ,
energy ( 39.9% ) , technology ( 36.9% ) , basic materials ( 36.0% ) , communications
( 35.3% ) , and utilities ( 31.4% ) . Utilities are at the bottom of the list of
S&P industry sectors! If they don’t work, nothing else will.

2 ) No industry is uniformly ahead of the others. There are laggards in
every major industry. Even in the leading financial sector, 36% of the
sample has spent less than half of their Y2K budget through the third
quarter of 1998.

3 ) There are a disturbing number of laggards. Fully 33% of the companies I
surveyed spent less than one-third of their budgets so far. And 14% of the
companies spent less than 20% of their projected Y2K budget through the
third quarter of 1998.

4 ) Only 8 companies claim that they are nearly finished, having
spending-to-budget ratios of 80% or more.

5 ) In the utility sector, only five of the 34 companies in my survey claim
to have spent more than 50% of their budget. And 10 of these have spent
less than 20%!

Dr. Ed Yardini

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 04:00
Dabchick (Tuesday's Gold and Silver Lease Rates) ID#258195:
Copyright © 1998 Dabchick/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
For Tuesday 8th Dec calculated from data published in Today's FT.
Period------------1- month--------3-month--------6- month---------12- month

Mean GoldLR------4.15---------------4.03-------------3.70-----------------3.48
Gold Lease Rate---1.44---------------1.22-------------1.39-----------------1.52
( Change ) ------ ( - 0.02 ) ------- ( + 0.01 ) ------- ( - 0.02 ) ----------- ( - 0.07 )

Silver Lend Rate----4.05--------------3.30-------------2.45-----------------2.10
Silver Lease Rate---1.54--------------1.95--------------2.64-----------------2.90
( Change ) --------- ( + 0.05 ) -------- ( + 0.10 ) --------- ( + 0.05 ) ------------ ( + 0.10 )
$LIBOR = BBA London rate fixed at 11am
Mean Gold Lending Rates and Silver Lending Rates are supplied to the FT by NM Rothschild
Lease Rate = $LIBOR minus Lending Rate .
( Change ) = change in lease rates since previous day

For comparison with $LIBOR, the FT rates for US Dollar CD's ( mid rates ) are as follows:
Period------------1- month--------3-month--------6- month---------12- month
US$ CD's-----------4.82-------------4.74---------------4.72---------------4.68

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 03:36
THC (To Jim re trend following) ID#367411:
Copyright © 1998 THC/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Hi Jim!

I generally agree with the concept that the trend is your friend.....but at the same time, if your gut tells you that something may be seriously wrong, it may be a good idea to stand back and watch....opportunities are infinite. The following is an interesting quote from the Metropole:

Dr. Imbrie of Brown University adds chilling details showing that the end of an interglacial period can be sharp and dramatic, as indicated by mastodons found in Siberian and North American ice packs, so quickly frozen that wildflowers they were chewing were still fresh between their teeth. Gold bears take note!

Good luck,


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 03:24
jims (All quiet and well on the eastern and western fronts) ID#252391:
Quick look around all seems to be proeceeding nicely. Asia up some, Europe not overly excited, bonds continue to rally, commodities of course are down, gold is asleep, again....nervous shorts obviously can't cover...

S&P overnight is off a point or two . . . . guess the damn breaks later......

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 03:21
Auric (The Coming US Recession) ID#257312:

These fellows claim it's here and can't be stopped. Written from an Austrian School point of view. A highly recommended read.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 03:20
jims (Nick@c re Fleckenstein) ID#252391:
Copyright © 1998 jims/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Mr. Fleckenstein is pretty nervous about recommending anything in his piece this day. His bearish stance on equities has cost anybody who paid any attention to him considerable lost opportunity. I like to read him, however, because he makes a good bear case - albeit a wrong case.. He's been early and wrong on the metals, too, having accumulated a substantial position in PAASF above the current market. He'd like to say he's bullish on the oil sector but in this piece your reference he almost says bullish but affraid.

The day Fleckenstein is right in his overall view of the economies and the market in general will be very gloomy indeed. His are no mild bear warnings. What gets me is his recommending Asia - HK and Japan, lately, but again giving himself an out by not really saying yes - now is the time to buy. If you are worried about the world economies and the effect of Y2k how can you recommend Asia where preparedness is furthest behind relative to the economy's size.

I like old Fleck but reading him hasn't made me a dime one. His suggestion not to short sell saved me money, as I think every stock he said would crash is higher today. Look at CPQ - one of his favorite bashes - perhaps a sign of just how screwed up and out of line everything is.

But what, when silver and gold stocks have earnings and are selling at 30 times next year's anticipated numbers and the crowd is fighting overeach other to buy them, we are going to say they are overvalued and they should be going down I doubt it. Stuff is worth what others will pay for it. Almost every analyist has missed the impact of liquidity and funds flow on stock prices - which has been the muscle behind the stock rally in the last 3 years. When gold rallies ( when being the operative word ) it will do so for reasons and in ways very few have anticipated and at the time understand. That's the leason I learn from Fleckensteirn - nobody, no matter how good they write and sound - KNOWS.

Follow the trend. PERIOD

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 03:09
aurator () ID#257148:
Interrupting the Nick Hour...


Did that Gambler cast nasturtiums on the 'telligence of Stralians? Sheesus. Nick, and ain't The Gambler one of your favourite songs?

Mr Gambler
You don't like socialism? Do you love the FDIC?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 02:55
Nick@C (Fleckenstein--good read) ID#386245:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 02:39
Nick@C (Mandela/Mbeki---Going Separate Ways) ID#386245:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 02:17
Nick@C (Stochastic warning) ID#386245:

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 02:00
Aldebaran (IMF NOT allowed to fix price of gold) ID#240155:
according to paragraph a or section 12 of article 5

( a ) The Fund shall be guided in all its policies and decisions under this Section by the objectives set forth

in Article VIII, Section 7 and by the objective of avoiding the management of the price, or the

establishment of a fixed price, in the gold market.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:58
longj (@JD) ID#30345:
Yeah. I got your drift. I don't want to be the bacon either. Don't you think that Pt has really good upside potential? Even better than Au.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:58
Aldebaran (I was wrong Article 5 Section 12 of the Articles of Agreement of the International Monetary Fund) ID#240155:
allows the IMF to sell gold.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:55
Envy (Hong Kong Hawker Ignites Himself) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
HONG KONG ( AP ) -- An elderly jade dealer died Wednesday, two days after he set himself on fire in a courtroom when authorities refused to hand back merchandise confiscated during his arrest for illegal sidewalk sales. Wong Tai-fuk, 76, described by his wife as a jade lover who sold the objects mainly to pass the time with other aficionados, suffered burns on 70 percent of his body. Wong died early Wednesday, according to a spokeswoman at Queen Mary Hospital who said she was not allowed to provide her name. Wong set himself on fire Monday in North Kowloon Court, where he had appeared on charges of selling jade without obtaining the required hawker's license. Wong pleaded guilty, and Magistrate James Tam fined him $50. Wong asked Tam to return his jade objects, worth $2,560, but Tam turned him down, saying it was standard legal procedure for authorities to keep such confiscated goods. Wong then walked to the back of the courtroom, took out a plastic bottle, doused himself with a flammable liquid and lit himself on fire before police could restrain him. A police officer extinguished the flames, but Wong had already suffered serious burns. No one answered the phone Wednesday at the magistrate's office. But the Hong Kong Standard quoted a court spokesman as saying, It's inappropriate for a judge to talk to the press.
No matter how stupid or senseless it seems, you've got to respect it.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:54
John Disney ( I'll take that chance ..) ID#24135:
longj ..
trust me .. Ive got humility .. Ive even got FEAR and

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:48
John Disney (Clinton as Bogart wont wash ..) ID#24135:
Copyright © 1998 John Disney/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Global Intelligence Update
Red Alert
December 9, 1998

U.S./North Korean Confrontation Causing Rifts in Tokyo and Seoul

According to a December 5 report in the Japanese newspaper Sankei
Shimbun, during their November 20 summit, U.S. President Bill
Clinton told Japanese Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi that the U.S.
is concerned about North Korea's possible nuclear weapons
capability. According to an anonymous source cited by the
newspaper, Clinton told Obuchi, We have to consider military
action against the DPRK's [North Korea's] threat, unless
Pyongyang submits to inspection of its underground nuclear
facilities. The paper claimed that recent high-level meetings
between U.S. and Japanese officials have repeatedly featured U.S.
warnings that Washington is prepared to launch air strikes if
Pyongyang does not give in. Obuchi reportedly responded to
Clinton that he hoped that North Korea would agree to
inspections. He also reportedly stressed that Washington, Tokyo,
and Seoul should cooperate in dealing with Pyongyang and that he
hoped the U.S. would not unilaterally adopt a hard line on North

South Korean President Kim Dae Jung has also urged the U.S. to
ease its confrontation with North Korea. On December 7 Kim
reportedly told William Perry, the U.S. North Korea Policy
Coordinator and Special Advisor to the President, I hope that
North Korean-US relations will be normalized... I think that now
is the time to think about the issue of lifting economic
sanctions on North Korea. Kim also suggested that the U.S.
should agree to North Korea's demand for $300 million in
compensation for opening its facilities to inspection, as part of
what Kim called a package deal to settle all outstanding
problems with North Korea.

The views expressed by Obuchi and Kim, ostensibly the United
States' staunchest allies in the region, are in this case clearly
at odds with the current U.S. policy on North Korea. Kim is
devoted to achieving peaceful coexistence with the North, an
extremely unpopular position among his many opponents in politics
and the South Korean military. Kim is attempting to finesse
intertwined domestic and foreign policy dilemmas, and does not
welcome the U.S.'s single issue, black-and-white agenda. Obuchi
is also dealing with clashing foreign and domestic policy issues,
attempting to take a strong stand against North Korean missile
development and to expand the role of the Japanese Self Defense
forces, while wriggling free of U.S. economic, political, and
military leadership. Yet while the Japanese and South Korean
leaders are apparently leery of a U.S. confrontation with North
Korea, it would appear that elements within their governments are

Japan's government television network reported on December 8 that
North Korea has begun building three underground facilities that
could be used to launch nuclear-armed missiles. According to NHK
television, the information on the underground launch sites in
northern North Korea came from U.S. spy satellites. The report
was apparently leaked from the Japanese Defense Agency to the
Japanese media, although the Agency's Director General, Hosei
Norota, denied any knowledge of the report.

Also on December 8, at a unification-related meeting, the South
Korean Defense Ministry issued a report entitled Recent North
Korean military Movement, detailing Pyongyang's war
preparations. The report alleged that North Korea has more than
8,200 underground sites, covering a combined length of 5,000,047
kilometers. According to the report, North Korea has 180
armament factories located underground, conducts regular war
mobilization exercises, and has sufficient food and war materiel
stored to conduct a war for at least three months without any
additional supplies. The report also claims that 60 percent of
North Korean troops have been deployed south of the Pyongyang-
Wonsan line, and that defensive positions have been set up along
North Korea's coasts.

Simultaneous reports appearing in both South Korea and Japan,
both at odds with their governments' policies of constructive
engagement with North Korea and supportive of U.S. warnings,
cannot but suggest U.S. involvement. That is particularly the
case in Japan, where sensitive U.S. satellite imagery or reports
generated from that imagery apparently fell into the hands of the
Japanese media. If this report is true, the information was most
likely deliberately leaked by Japanese intelligence, who in turn
received it from U.S. intelligence agencies. While the leak
could have occurred without U.S. knowledge or approval, the
impact of the report suggests an attempt by the U.S., possibly in
conjunction with Japanese intelligence, to garner support for
U.S. policy on North Korea.

However, while the U.S. is evidently attempting to win support
for its desire to use military force against North Korea, it is
doing so a the risk of undermining Kim and Obuchi, not only on
this issue but fundamentally. Obuchi is attempting to balance
rising Japanese nationalism and anti-Americanism, while solving
Japan's economic crisis and taking on a leadership role in Asia.
Obuchi is also attempting to lift many of the constraints on
Japan's military, against opposition from within and outside
Japan. A U.S. military conflict with North Korea, with a high
potential to rapidly escalate, threatens to throw Japan into an
unpopular support role for an equally unpopular heightened U.S.
military presence. In South Korea, where former dissident Kim is
battling the entrenched interests of his former persecutors to
forge a new policy toward the North, U.S. policy is empowering
that opposition.

And the fact that the U.S. is strong-arming what should be U.S.
allies in the region into untenable positions is not the most
critical aspect of this brewing crisis. The biggest problem for
the U.S., as with its policy on Iraq, is that Washington is
building a crisis and framing a response with no concept of an
end-game. North Korea has already weathered years of sanctions.
Pyongyang is unlikely to throw open the country to inspections at
the mere threat of violence. At the same time, North Korea is,
if anything, more impervious to U.S. cruise missile attacks than
is Iraq. Invading North Korea would be a bloody nightmare. To
top it all off, North Korea promises an even harsher response to
U.S. actions from China and Russia, with which it shares borders.

Still, Washington and its allies are banging the drum. Unless
Washington takes a moment to consider just how it plans to
extract the U.S. from what promises to be a protracted and
pointless conflict with North Korea -- one that promises to make
Washington's Iraq policy look productive -- Clinton will soon be
forced to back his words with actions, or let the DPRK call his
bluff. Neither option is attractive.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:43
Aldebaran (this from IFM website, what does this paragraph mean?) ID#240155:
Copyright © 1998 Aldebaran/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
In addition, given the increased importance of private capital flows in the

globalized world economy, the Interim Committee has endorsed the concept of an

amendment to the IMF's charter ( or Articles of Agreement ) that would make the

promotion of capital account liberalization one of its purposes and give the IMF

appropriate jurisdiction over capital movements. The IMF is considering carefully

all aspects of this issue, recognizing that moves toward capital account

liberalization must be properly paced and sequenced in light of individual country


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:40
longj (@JD) ID#30345:
In two more weeks he may post the same about your last post. Up,Down. Two weeks ain't that long...

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:36
John Disney ( You're getting cocky ..) ID#24135:
RJ ..
Two weeks ago you posted the following
Date: Mon Nov 23 1998 03:22

The white metals are fine.
Gold will fall


At that time had closed about 295.25, Plats 357.5,
and Palladium at 298 ..

... but gold has held up okay at 293 plus .. platinum is
off 12 bucks and Palladium has tumbled 25 $...
this is your weekly bed time humility ration ..

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:35
longj (@aurator) ID#30345:
The man who fears no truths has nothing to fear from lies.

In a perverse sort of way WJC might try to say the same thing.

Who was it that said FDR would never tell the truth if a lie would do just the same?

tminus ten minutes and counting.....

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:28
Nick@C (The Great Crash 1929...J.K.Galbraith) ID#386245:
We do not know why a great speculative orgy occurred in 1928 and 1929...Far more important than the rate of interest and the supply of credit is the mood. Speculation on a large scale requires a pervasive sense of confidence and optimism and conviction that ordinary people were meant to be rich. People must also have faith in the good intentions and even in the benevolence of others, for it is by the agency of others that they will get rich...The common folks believe in their leaders...Such a feeling of trust is essential for a boom
Sound familiar

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:26
RJ (..... Salty .....) ID#411259:

I think it was something like

Live life unashamed of anything ever said about you
Even if it is on the front page of the newspaper, and even if it is a lie

I like Tommy's version better, I always tend to get to wordy

He also said, pass the peas please

But that is another story


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:22
longj (kinda into jefferson tonight.) ID#30345:
The sum of what has been said is . . . that specie is the most perfect medium, because it will

preserve its own level; because, having intrinsic and universal value, it can never die in our

hands, and it is the surest resource of reliance in time of war; that the trifling economy of

paper, as a cheaper medium, or its convenience for transmission, weighs nothing in opposition to

the advantages of the precious metals; that it is liable to be abused, has been, is, and forever

will be abused, in every country in which it is permitted;... Instead, then, of yielding to the

cries of scarcity of medium set up by speculators, projectors and commercial gamblers, no

endeavors should be spared to begin the work of reducing it by such gradual means as may give

time to private fortunes to preserve their poise, and settle down with the subsiding medium;

Thomas Jefferson

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:21
RJ (..... James .....) ID#411259:

Me too.............

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:20
RJ (..... Salty .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Now THAT is a post to retire to and call it a night.
However unfortunate your impromptu constable ballistics thingy was
It caused the first hint of a smile to cross my troubled brow this evening
It is, how you say…… a keeper. Much like an army buddy of mine
Met under similar circumstances, although under the hot lights of Interrogation Training

A big slab of a West Virginia feller, whose first explanation to me
Was that he Pumped sunshine up the holler in that West By God Virginia twang.
I couldn't stand the big dufus. That was before we became mates.
I have since learned he is one of the most brilliant people I have ever met.
He also does an outstanding drunken Winston Churchill ( was there any other kind? )
And a side splitting version of the pepperpot ladies, you know
When the Monty Python boys would dress in drag and blather idiocies?

Went to his wedding up there in the hollers of WV, married a cute little French girl, he did
A darling and petite woman no more than five feet tall; sweet and angelic
She also has a double Doctorate in Molecular Biology and runs the State Forensic Genetic Lab
And now spends mucho time in court presenting damning evidence
Against rapists and molesters and all those who should fall by the twin swords of science and justice.
Big dufus with a twang, little cute French girl with a face like an angel.

Even face to face we can misjudge folks, yes?



Ask your bikie pals what their plans are for next summer.
They need some more pirates at the annual Seattle Pirate Invasion
Those bikie boys got the hair, on head and face,
And with a quick change of costumes….. they ARE pirates.

Arrrrggggghh Maytey

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:10
aurator () ID#257148:
Wiping the monitor.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:07
James (Haiku) ID#252150:
Words strewn together
In a haphazard manner
Can't be called Haiku

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 01:02
aurator (quote, and a vague memory) ID#257148:
The man who fears no truths has nothing to fear from lies.
--Thomas Jefferson

come to think of it, didn't you post some long time ago wisdom along the same lines? Something like, live your life so that even if lies are printed about you, noone would believe the lies?


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 00:56
James (JTF@I'm pretty sure that the Brazilian Congress is meeting tomorrow & the Gov't) ID#252150:
Copyright © 1998 James/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
will try to get some other austerity measures passed. From what I can gather there is a lot of dissension & resistance to other parts of the IMF program, besides the pension reform. I've also read that the IMF are so desperate to get the funds to Brazil that they did'nt attach anywhere near as many stringent conditions to the Brazilian bailout as they did to the SEAsian Countries' bailouts.

Still, whenever these IMF bailouts get on the news it reminds investors that there are huge problems out there that are nowhere near resolved & prompts some of them to take profits.

Read Jimmy Rogers in Worth today & he thinks that Saudi A. is in such bad financial shape that they may end up technically bankrupt & their production may be interrupted. I can't quite figure out why that would happen. Anyway, he seems to be medium-term bullish on oil.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 00:53
aurator () ID#257148:
I'm not sure what the drama is all about that has caused you to be in the centre of all this flack. Ain't nothing un-capitalistic about loss leader marketing, or selling at a discount. I do it all the time.


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 00:49
longj (quote) ID#30345:
Like a dropsical man calling out for water, water, our deluded citizens are clamoring for more

banks, more banks. The American mind is now in that state of fever which the world has so often

seen in the history of other nations. We are under the bank bubble, as England was under the

South Sea bubble, France under the Mississippi bubble, and as every nation is liable to be under

whatever bubble, design, or delusion may puff up in moments when off their guard. We are now

taught to believe that legerdemain tricks upon paper can produce as solid wealth as hard labor

in the earth. It is vain for common sense to urge that nothing can produce but nothing, that it

is an idle dream to believe in a philosopher's stone which is to turn everything into gold, and

to redeem man from the original sentence of his Maker, in the sweat of his brow shall he earn

his bread.

Thomas Jefferson

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 00:47
aurator () ID#257148:
Copyright © 1998 aurator/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Good on ya, mate.

Where I have needed to, I have disagreed with you. I suspect you are quite right when you conjecture we can be 'more aggressive' on kitco than we might otherwise be in person. However, I had reason to tell Au-Producer a story in which I met my best mate. I threw him, and another, both were leather-jacketed-motorbike-chained ruffians, one over each shoulder in one deft movement when I was a youngster and they were barring my rightful passage into a party. Seeing my success, the third bikie, and the only one still left standing inside, backed away in fear. Thinking That was easy, I strode four steps into the party when my shirt was grabbed from behind and I sailed, describing a graceful arc out of the doorway, over a balconey to land in the path of a Policeman who had just walked up the drive. Having trouble? he enquired of me. Not me, officer, says aurator, shirt in tatters, picking himself up from the ground. Policeman looks up at the bikers, Any trouble here fellas? No trouble, they say, puffing and panting, adrenaline taking its toll on facial harmony. Well, we've had complaints about the noise, please turn the music down, with that the policeman turns around and strides off into the darkness. The bloke who turns out to be my best mate says You better come into the party, then. A week later, I'm at the fabled Captain Cook Tavern, some fella plonks a bottle of Steinlager on the table in front of me and says Seems like we had a case of mistaken identity last weekend, my name is.....
We became best mates...

So I guess I'm just an aggressive sob. hahahaha.....

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 00:41
RJ (..... Tovarish Oris .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Best I can figure is as I have said.
If one is happy with their purchase
When one needs more, or has a friends that do
One may tend to return, yes?

Since the offer is for first time clients only
I would suspect that an increased clientele would be a goal
Is this not the same for every company on earth?
I also suspect the offer is limited to first time clients
To prevent every dealer in the country from stocking up on bars.

I never would have guessed that a simple offer would have garnered so many confused reactions, but your 2, 3, are unfair and groundless speculations.

Nothing is free in this world, and I think there is nothing free here.

It is what it is, and I did not make it so, and I am sorry I brought it up.

But over a hundred people are not.

We will drink vodka and consider this deeply, yes?


Over teeth,
Over gums
Lookout stomak
Here it komes

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 00:23
RJ (..... BigFisherman .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

I'm happy to hear you made some money, in small part to some of my posts, and I am sorry you disagree with my views of the larger world. I can't help it, I have always been an optimist. While this has not been evident in my views on gold these last two years, I was always very optimistic abort my shorts.

I have spoken to some folks recently about the end times. I have received calls by folks who are truly worried about the coming millenium and see the Y2K thingy as another of the tools…. No that's not the right word…… as one catalyst which adds impetus to the end of our world as we know it. I have learned a great deal from these people and the views that guide their lives.

These same folks a better informed than I about the religious implications of these times, and I am not competent to do much but listen and absorb. I cannot form quite the same beliefs myself, but this does not prevent me from trying to learn from another. Beliefs of this type are the most personal we hold, and I tend to stray away from interactive discussions, and just listen. I have zero judgement for their beliefs, nor would I expect them to judge my own. Belief is the most personal word any language and, when beliefs do not harm innocents, are inviolate. I am always curious about why people do things, so I am likely to ask a few questions, always to learn, never to lead.

Don't know about your dad, but my company only sells the physical metal, no futures contracts or options. Some may choose to finance the purchase, gaining the power one would find in a leveraged investment, but this is a sword that cuts both ways. If one could gain $4 for every $1 invested with a cooperative market, than one could surely loose by this same ratio, should the market prove more ornery. I have written this many times on this forum, and never encouraged a soul to do anything. I was very careful that I only wrote about what I was doing, or what my clients - in the most generic sense - were doing. I don't make recommendations here, it is not my place. Most of my time has been spent making fundamental arguments about fundamental facts.

Most of what I based my gold calls on, were not very clever theories at all, just had less fog to look through and seemed to make more sense to me based on the facts I could gather. But I was way wrong in some silver shorts last December, and suffered the same decline that goldbugs have endured in some over my earlier platinum plays this year. Looking back, even when I was wrong, I think it was for the right reasons. There are trades I would love to undo, and I share that with every reader of this site.

I am particularly sorry to hear the Boeing thing is affect you personally. I grew up in Bellevue, N.E. 20th Street; went to Sherwood Forest Elementary School - where I warmed the bench outside the principal's office a time or three - and I feel a certain kinship with anyone from my childhood home. My dad was Director of Materials at Boeing's Everett plant in the Sixties. I still remember the awe I felt when first he took me into that building, still the most cavernous in the world. There were a half dozen planes INSIDE this building with plenty of room to host a couple of football games complete with cheerleaders and marching bands.

Dad lives up in Sequim now, at the tip of the Olympic peninsula. I visit when I can and always spend a few days in Seattle first, then take a ferry across the Sound before driving up the peninsula. Last time I was there, it was late August, and blackberries were ripe on the vines. We pulled the car over and ate the berries with fingers sore from the little pinprick thingies those blackberry bushes are chock full of. August is a good time up there also because of the Bumbershoot music fest. A few years ago, I was there during Seafair week and saw some bikers dressed up as pirates invade West Seattle. I kayaked across Lake Union and threaded the houseboats, a silent temporary neighbor. I closed my eyes and listened to the sun go down at The Gasworks, and kissed a pretty girl right there, amidst the only spot on earth I have ever seen, where ALL the graffiti was about love.

I hope the Boeing thing turns around. Just a couple years ago I was impressed to see they were preordered to the year 2005. I guess they didn't expect wholesale cancellations from Asia because of their inability to pay. I sorry my tone grinds you as arrogant, but this is an affected voice, the one I always seem to slip into, when ever I write at Kitco. I write some fiction also, and it carries a much softer and respectful tone. It always tends to stray towards irreverence though, but I guess that is a personal failing. People tend to find me pretty pleasant in person, or on the phone. Pleasant, that is, unless platinum is doing a dive. But I never seem to receive the vehement words, tossed at me from all sides, when I talk to people. Something in the very foundation of a forum such as this, seems to make us more aggressive than we are with anyone else in our lives. Maybe it is the anonymity ( although I have little of that anymore ) but we all tend to be nicer in person, yes?

And thanks for separating me and my opinions from those of others who may have worked where I do. I have always approached these pages speaking for myself and none other, and have distanced myself at any inkling of someone trying to paint me with company colors. I am proud of who I work for, and am respected for working there, but these pages are where I come to speak MY mind, for I know no other's.


Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 00:15
aurator (....brighter, in the gathering gloom....) ID#257148:
Copyright © 1998 aurator/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I, too, should like to add my voice to the chorus of welcome. Funny how I mentioned you by name on Date: Mon Dec 07 1998 08:17, I meant no offence by encompassing you in the simile that also embraced the IMF.
You have quoted my second favourite SIlas Marner quote, permit me to quote my favourite passage, the gaining of his first gold coins....

But at last Mrs Osgood's table-linen was finished, and Silas was paid in gold. His earnings in his native town, where he worked for a wholesale dealer, had been after a lower rate; he had been paid weekly, and of his weekly earnings a large proportion had gone to objects of piety and charity. Now, for the first time in his life, he had five bright guineas put into his hand; no man expected a share of them, and he loved no man that he should offer him a share. But what were the guineas to him who saw no vista beyond countless days of weaving? It was needless for him to ask that, for it was pleasant to him to feel them in his palm, and look at their bright faces, which were all his own: it was another element of life, like the weaving and the satisfaction of hunger, subsisting quite aloof from the life of belief and love from which he had been cut off. The weaver's hand had known the touch of hard-won money even before the palm had grown to its full breadth; for twenty years, mysterious money had stood to him as the symbol of earthly good, and the immediate object of toil. He had seemed to love it little in the years when every penny had its purpose for him; for he loved the purpose then. But now, when all purpose was gone, that habit of looking towards the money and grasping it with a sense of fulfilled effort made a loam that was deep enough for the seeds of desire; and as Silas walked homeward across the fields in the twilight, he drew out the money, and thought it was brighter in the gathering gloom.
George Eliot ( Mary Anne Evans ) Silas Marnar

Who's gonna rock tonight?

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 00:14
JTF (Brazil and South America) ID#254321:
James: Last I heard, their congress was not reconvening on some key resolutions requested by the IMF until spring. Could have some surprizes before then. And there is the small matter of the 60 billion that Mexico owes.

Any idea how badly the South American Oil producers are hurting? Looks like things will get worse before they get better. Mexicao and Venezuela certainly cannot afford to reduce oil production.

Catch 22.

Date: Wed Dec 09 1998 00:13
Greenstone Gold (Paper BURNS......................) ID#428232:

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