KITCO GOLD FORUM
1997-1999

index
Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 23:54
Cueball (Under a Hundred, cost of production au) ID#344286:
Copyright © 1998 Cueball/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
http://www.newmont.com/carlinb.htm#Carlin

For all its success, 1996 was a transitional year on the Carlin Trend. Surface deposits
of the easier to process oxide ores are being depleted and, increasingly, new
production is coming from complex refractory ores that require pretreatment before the
gold can be recovered.

Newmont's Carlin operation has become as complex as its ores.

Sophisticated computer modeling, a robotics laboratory that
assays two million ore samples a year and increasing use of stockpiles to segregate ore
by grade, sulfur and carbon content are necessary to optimize operations.

five million tons were stockpiled for future processing.

The refractory ore treatment plant, or Mill No. 6, the largest facility of its type, is pivotal
to Newmont's future.

To the north of the Post deposit, drilling in the Goldbug area doubled the mineralized
material not yet in reserves to 5.7 million tons of mineralization at a grade of 0.288
ounce per ton, and increased the inferred resource base to several times that amount.
This inferred resource consists mostly of low-grade refractory material for which
economical metallurgical recovery methods are being tested.

http://talk.techstocks.com/~wsapi/investor/Subject-23633

jec



Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 23:53
John Disney (Economist data..) ID#24135:
Copyright © 1998 John Disney/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
to all
Looking at the Economist ..
US industrial production is picking UP again. October
annual growth rate is 2.1% but last 3 months over prior
3 months ( annualized ) is 3.7 %.
Japan shows minus 7.6 september over prior september BUT
last 3 months over prior 3 months ( annualized ) is flat.
They seem to be coming out of it.
October US money supply is 1.6% for M1 and 10.8 % for M3
( year on year ) .
However, September was 0.7 for M1 and 10.3 for m3 year on
year. They must have really pumped in October to raise the
year on year growth that much.
The picture for a grouping of 11 European countries is less
good .. Incremental Ip ( as defined above ) falls slighty from
4.7% annually to 3.2 % ( but still pretty rosy ) .
In other areas .. IP seems to be rising in Asia ( with the
exception of the Philippines which is getting thumped ) ..
.. and falling in latin America.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 23:49
Envy (Serious Message) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Thought I'd take a minute and post a serious message for those folks holding equities, will try not to be dramatic ( my nature ) . If you are holding stocks be careful, more careful than you ever have been before. Despite all the PPT talk, the long history of the market bull, the FED cuts, etc, the world really is getting to be a dangerous place for investors, and it's not a joke. We should all try to remember what we're holding when we buy stocks, what they really are, and how much they're really worth. It's so easy to get wrapped up in the momentum of soaring valuations, but it's not real, none of it. When we purchase a share of something, we purchase a piece of paper. That's it. It's not any kind of promise to pay us set dividends, or a promise from the market to pay us back the capital invested in the share, it's just a piece of paper that gives you an interest in the company. One share, or even thousands of shares, means nothing. You can't vote on the board, they don't ask your advice, nothing, you're just holding paper. A company will say that you are the reason they're in business, to provide value to you as a shareholder, but that's not true at all and you know it. Corporations like to keep their stock valuations high for a reason, and that reason is so they can sell more stock in the future to fund the companies growth, that's why they go to all the trouble to do an IPO in the first place. Other than that, they don't care about you one little bit, you're just a source of investment capital to them. What do you get for your money ? A piece of paper that basically says you're their buddy, a thank you note, one that they'll pay out some dividends on if they feel like it. The value of stocks over the past few years has been in capital appreciation. What's that mean ? It just means there is a sucker out there who is willing to pay more for that scrap of paper than you were, because he or she thinks there will be an even bigger sucker coming down the road in just a few minutes, and there usually is. For a decade now, there has always has been someone who is willing to pay an even higher price for a stock than the person who is holding it. That gets us to where we are today. Right now, many companies are selling for unimaginable valuations, prices that can't be justified in any way. Some stocks are so over priced that if they were to take over 100 percent of their market, that is, every single person who wanted the widget they sell had to buy it from them, total monopoly, they still couldn't deliver earnings high enough to justify the price of their stock. The P/E ratios on some of these stocks are above 200, that's right, some sucker is willing to pay 100 dollars for a stock that has earnings of 50 cents. You might be thinking to yourself, so what! As long as the prices keep going up, I'm making money! Well, yes and no. The prices that are listed on the exchanges aren't set in stone, they move constantly and are based on buyer's bidding a certain amount of money for a stock, and seller's asking for a certain amount. The only thing that keeps a stock's price up is that there is always someone in line who is willing to pay the price for it. When the market goes down, the only thing that happens is that buyers aren't as willing to pay the price, and so sellers must lower their prices to attract buyers. When a market crashes, all that means is that nobody was willing to buy, so the sellers had to drop their prices to really low levels in order to find a buyer, if one can be found. It can happen in the blink of an eye, and the average investor has no chance, as the game will have already been played out by the time the average investor gets his or her shares to the exchange. If you believe that the buyers will always be willing to pay more than you did, well, think again, because that won't always be the case. The smartest people with the best data and the most reliable connections will see the writing on the wall long before you will, and they'll sell their shares while the buyers are out buying. The average investor, when it is all said and done, will be the one who holds all the paper, while the traders, brokers, insiders, and corporations who issued the paper will be holding your money. Just think before you purchase that next lot of shares, are you willing to pay the price you're paying no matter what happens in the markets ? If the answer is yes, great. If the answer is no, be very careful.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 23:41
bmacd (JTF) ID#261322:
Copyright © 1998 bmacd/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
No doubt, the day of reckoning is when the USD has serious competition. True, many European countries debt situations are diplorable..but their currencies have not been the bastion of safety, and I question this massive debtor nations paper and debt being the definition of safety. THe US dollar will have competition just because of the Euro. Many ( including myself ) question whether it really can work ( too many different cultures and value systems ) . However, the fact remains that in les than a month ...well here it is. And if only to reposition reserves and holdings, more central banks ( and investors ) will hold some Euros. Odds are good that what goes is the USD holdings. Japan apparently has been selling US Treasuries and buying some gold. China has declared that it will hold Euros, and by the way, needs to purchase more gold for it's reserves. I believe that the competition is there, it's more a question of how much longer the manipulation can be strung out to buy time.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 23:38
SWP1 (About mountes - again) ID#233199:
How small was teh preoduction of Mounties in comparison to other Gold coins? Are there particularly few of them?

I'm trying to get an idea how are / valuable they might become..

.---any thoughts on the subject are welcome.

.........thanks

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 23:24
JTF (The final days of reckoning will be when the US dollar has serious competition) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
bmacd: I think the party will not end until the US dollar is no longer the world's defacto currency. Given the economic situation in Europe, I find it hard to believe that the EURO will be a serious threat. Part of my reasoning is based on the fact that Europe/Middle East is at war in many areas, any one of which could flare up and cause a 'flight to safety' in US dollars, or gold. The EURO is too close to the 'action' and hence more at risk. Part of my reasoning comes from 'The Economist' which has stated that debt levels are quite high in Europe. And according to them, higher than US debt levels. The truth is probably that debt levels are comparable with a slight edge for the US, given our 'reserve' role.

The only thing that makes me wonder if I am wrong is the number of German concerns that are buying our American corporations. If this continues, we will have a strong clue that the EURO might succeed, and that the US is far weaker than it appears to be.


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 23:13
bondsman (Excellent article about the collusion of CEOs with Wall Street brokerages:) ID#263119:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news2.cgi?T=bbco_lewis.ht&s=332468010

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 23:13
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
Pete -- Only questions that remains is 'who/what will they blame it on?', and the exact time and date of its demise.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 23:07
Pete (Rate cut?) ID#222231:
Look for 1 or 2 more rate cuts and then Dow to 10,000 before the final meltdown. They'll fight all the way to the end ala WJC. IMHO.

Good night,

Pete

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 23:06
JTF (Logging off -- G'Nite all upover and downunder) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Interesting times we live in. The insanity/euphoria of the markets reflects the insanity/euphoria in our lives. Eventually the party will end, with WJC and the Markets meeting the same fate, as the Oldman has said. I do not welcome hard times, but I do know the longer we wait before we have them, the worse it will get.

Like someone on steroids who suddenly runs out, or a manic depressive. The longer you are on the high, the worse the low. Better to have many shorter cycles.

That's what we get for messing with Mother Nature with our attempts to eliminate the business cycle. You might say that the FED, in its infinite wisdom to prevent recessions, has put us on long-term steroids.

But -- we are running out.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 23:04
EB (Mounties..............) ID#187109:
-
SWP1 - I have a ( ONE ) mountie.......... ( not much of a physical buyer ) ........and it is a beaUtiful coin and EVERYONE should have at least ONE in their collections. I do think the value will increase due to lack of them ( in the future ) . An added bonus is that if you buy from Bart it supports this, this kitco.........uh huh.

FAIR DINKUM... ( for all my antipode amigos ) ...................... ( grin ) ....

BUY MOUNTIES FROM BART!!!!!!!!! ALL OF YA!!

and then turn am in later so's the value can increase.......ya - hoo!
away...to the tube ( the other tube )
Éß

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 23:04
bmacd (JTF) ID#263287:
Copyright © 1998 bmacd/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
You may be right, the game keeps going on , but my question is how can the government keep hiding the debt for much longer, The world is awash in US paper- be it dollars or bonds ( debt ) . A smart man suggested that the printing presses are on full blast to buy back the debt that is flooding back into the market. Likely true, but either way there's a problem. All this money will ultimately be inflationary, or there's loads of debt. In the end, the one with the money generally makes the rules. Japan is loaded. Only more US dollars and US bonds will come into the market as the Euro is introduced and there is a shift in holdings. What then? Games change as the rules and the rule makers change.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 23:04
Envy (Japan) ID#219363:
You know you're in recession when the government admits the economy isn't going to make the 1.8 percent NEGATIVE growth it was hoping for. Four quarters and counting, worst since they start keeping records. Tally ho.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:54
MoReGoLd (@Gnight) ID#348286:
Thats it for me, going to wander the universe and maybe take in a wormhole sidetrip......

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:52
EJ (Calling a spade a spade) ID#45173:
Copyright © 1998 EJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The Wall Street Journal didn't refer to today's selling as profit taking. Nope.
-EJ

Industrials Plunge
As Tech Stocks
Succumb to Selling

By TERRI CULLEN
INTERACTIVE JOURNAL

Blue-chip stocks tumbled in late trading
on Thursday as the technology sector gave
in to the selling buffeting the rest of the
market all day. The dollar fell against the
mark and yen, while U.S. Treasurys edged
higher.
The Dow Jones Industrial Average
plunged 184.86, or 2%, to 8879.68. The
Standard & Poor's 500-stock index dropped
21.11 to 1150.14 and the New York Stock
Exchange Composite Index slid 8.34 to
563.45.
The tech-laden Nasdaq Composite Index,
which managed to hold its head above water
throughout most of the session amid strong
gains in its dominant technology group,
plunged in the last hour of trading to finish
the day down 40.88, or 2.05%, to 1954.33.
The Morgan Stanley high-technology index
sank 17.57 to 736.95.
Much of the market was weak from the
outset of trading amid worries about
economic troubles in Europe and Latin
America. A surprise, coordinated
interest-rate cut in Europe sparked concerns
about the health of the continent's
economies, while the failure of a key
pension reform plan in the Brazilian
Congress raised fears that a bailout for that
country could be held up by the International
Monetary Fund.
Financial stocks were the market's worst
performers, hammered by worried about
their exposure to emerging markets
economies. J.P. Morgan and American
Express led the Dow industrials' retreat,
losing 4 1/16 to 107 1/4 and 4 1/8 to 96 5/8,
respectively.
Meanwhile, tech stocks stumbled as
Internet shares stumbled despite the market's
favorable response to the initial public
offering of Ticketmaster Online-CitySearch.
Its shares surged to 40 1/4 from its offering
price of 14. But the American Stock
Exchange Internet index tumbled 18.23 to
491.74.
Semiconductor issues managed to close
higher, supported by a string of encouraging
earnings announcements and analysts'
upgrades, including a solid profit report
from Analog Devices and a rating upgrade
for Micron Technology by Credit Suisse
First Boston. The Philadelphia Stock
Exchange semiconductor index soared 5.93
to 332.71.
Treasurys closed slightly higher, despite
the uncertainty surrounding the Brazilian
rescue package. Traders said investors were
reluctant to take substantial positions in the
market ahead of Friday's closely watched
monthly employment report, which many
hope will show an easing in the tight U.S.
labor market.
World-wide, stocks slipped in dollar
terms. The Dow Jones World Stock Index
was down 1.33 to 191.72 as of 5 p.m. EST.

In major market action:
Stocks tumbled. On the Big Board,
where volume was heavy at 799.1 million
shares, 1,886 stocks declined and 1,152
advanced.
Bonds edged higher. The 30-year
bellwether Treasury bond was up less than
1/4, or $2.50 per $1,000 bond. Its yield
stood at 5%.
The dollar fell. It was at 1.6705 marks
and 118.53 yen, compared with 1.6714
marks and 120.13 yen late Wednesday in
New York.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:51
MoReGoLd (@Sucking Sound --- No Not Monica !!!) ID#348286:
Isn't this the Sucking Sound that Ross Perrot was talking about ?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:49
JTF (Yes -- I'm probably wrong on that. All we have to do is wait for the market crash) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
tolerant1: The minute I posted that statement I figured that would cause some commotion. Perhaps a better thing to say is that 2010-2015 will be a major period of reckoning ( sp? ) . Just imagine when all of our unoffical Federal debt comes due. Would be much earlier if interest rates shot up above 10% during a US dollar crisis. As I recall, interest is about 30% of our GNP right now.

Part of the reason that it is still possible that I may be right is that our illustrious government may be able to hide more debt under the rug for years into the future.

The name of the worldwide game with fiat currencies seems to be -- how much debt you can accumulate secretly before someone ( the people ) refuse to pay the interest.

Actually, I would rather get it over with now -- near y2k. Can you imagine what it would be like if our 'day of reckoning' was postponed to 2010-2015? I shiver to think what it would be like then, if the excesses of now can continue another 20 years.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:48
MoReGoLd (@HMMMmmm - I think we may be closer to depression than one may imagine, but the analysts love it....) ID#348286:
Copyright © 1998 MoReGoLd/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Breaking: J&J to eliminate a net 4,100 jobs, close 36 plants

NEW YORK, Dec 3 ( Reuters ) - Health care giant Johnson & Johnson ( NYSE:JNJ - news ) on Thursday joined the growing ranks of U.S.-based companies that are slashing their work forces as it launched a restructuring plan that calls for the elimination of a net 4,100 jobs and an $800 million fourth-quarter charge.

The New Brunswick, N.J.-based maker of Tylenol pain-killer and Band-Aids said it would cut 5,800 jobs worldwide while creating 1,700 new jobs in other areas, resulting in a net loss of 4,100 positions.

J&J also will close 36 manufacturing facilities as it reconfigures its worldwide operations. J&J Chief Financial Officer Bob Darretta told Reuters that about 11 of the plants to be shut are in the United States, accounting for about 61 percent of the net job cuts.

The company said it would take a $800 million one-time charge in the fourth quarter related to its restructuring, including $300 million for a write-off related to the acquisition of DePuy Inc. ( DPU - news ) , a maker of orthopedic devices.

All told, the moves, which will take 12 to 18 months to complete, eventually will result in cost savings of $250 million to $300 million annually, the company said in a statement. The company's announcement did not say how the restructuring would affect earnings.

Darretta expects more consolidation-related charges during 1999, but they would be offset by savings, he said.

``It is good that J&J is taking a good look at its operations after their significant acquisitions in the last two years,'' said Douglas Christopher of Crowell, Weedon & Co., a brokerage based in Los Angeles. ``If anyone has to benefit from this consolidation, it is Johnson & Johnson.''

Hemant Shah of HKS & Co., a Warren, N.J.-based health-care equity research firm, said the move was ``a step in the right direction.'' He expects the restructuring to have ``an insignificant impact'' on 1999 earnings and a ``mildly positive'' impact on 2000 earnings.

As it consolidates its manufacturing facilities, J&J will have to reorient its work force, a company spokesman told Reuters, ``which means that some employees will have be transferred or laid off.'' But the company will make every effort to retain as many employees as possible, he added.

J&J made the announcement after the close of stock trading in the United States. Its shares finished at $79.69, down 81 cents, in trading on the New York Stock Exchange.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:46
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
Copyright © 1998 Eldorado/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
bondsman -- We'll take those in a slightly different order, ( odor? ) .:
2. The authorities inform us that the economy is sound and that the problems in the financial world won't spread into the real economy. They've been doing this for quite some time, and to effect. This one can be discounted as it has been going on for so long.
3. Furious rate cutting and intermediate stock market rallies. Seems to be the normal mode of operation these days.
4. The long bond climbs. And it would do otherwise with continuing rate cuts and fear of deflation?
5. News of debt defaults by developing countries and corporations. And there hasn't been any of that occurring? Better buy a newspaper sometime.
6. News that prices are falling. Well, we've all seen gasoline fall a few cents at the pumps. We all know farmers aren't making any money growing anything. ( Must be someone in between collecting the profits ) . Must be the Y2K purchasers in the stores holding up the prices. A temporary abberation, I'm sure. And of course, the Asians are selling for whatever they can get! So, in at least several ways, prices are falling, even if a few in the middle are making more profits for awhile.
1. The stock market caves in big ( this practically ensures the deflation/depression ) . It probably will have to at some point, but like most markets, it'll happen after the fact. Especially when you have a PPT team whose sole purpose in life is to not let it crash ( before its' time ) . So, Most of these things have been 'deteriorating' ( your word ) before your very eyes and you haven't seen them? What a concept!!! When they 'decisively act', you won't even have a clue!!!


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:40
Envy (@MoReGoLd) ID#219363:
Makes me feel a little better about my Gold investments *grin*

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:39
The Hatt (Soros/ The vulture is becoming his own prey....) ID#294232:
When Soros speaks you know that he is looking to support events to bail out his losses. Looks good on him and the only way to stop this powerful ass#### from preying on the poor and the defenseless is to take away his money. I take my hat off to the wealthy like Buffet and simply speak out against the likes of Soros. I put him on the same level as slum landlords and the market makers on NASDAQ.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:38
JTF (Market Crash, then depression years later) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Bondsman: I agree. Would take years for our economy to wind down enough where the authorities would admit that we are in a depression. Just look at Japan. We may not have the savings the Japanese had, but we do have AG et al. But -- if AG steps down, and is replaced by someone inexperienced, things could go bad in a hurry.

Just a thought -- if you are a FED chairman, and you don't know what to do with worldwide deflation looming -- you might be tempted to overinflate the currency rather than risk the oblivion of deflation/depression. Inflation is far more politically acceptable then depression -- and you can inflate away the debt.

We at Kitco will be years ahead of whatever happens. Some of us were 20 years to early -- like my dad.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:33
Envy (Japan Economy Shrinks Again) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
TOKYO ( AP ) -- Japan's economy has sunk deeper into recession, shrinking at an annual rate of 2.6 percent in the latest quarter to mark a startling four consecutive quarters of contraction. The latest sign of weakness from Tokyo means other struggling Asian nations will have to wait even longer for Japan, normally the strongest economy in the region, to help pull its neighbors out of an economic slump. Japan's gross domestic product -- a measure of all goods and services produced -- slid 0.7 percent in the three months from July through September compared to the previous quarter, the government reported. It was the first time the economy has shrunk for four consecutive quarters since the government started compiling growth statistics in 1955, and showed Japan remains mired in its worst recession since World War II.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpne14.htm
--
*yawn*

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:31
MoReGoLd (@SWP1) ID#348286:
Re the Mountie, not a bad deal IMO. You pay 325. and your guaranteed 310. back until 2000.
From what I see, the numismatic value should appreciate with the very limited production.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:30
tolerant1 (JTF, Namaste' gulp and a puff...you are kidding yourself if you think the USA will) ID#20359:
last till 2007-10...expect grave problems during the next 18-24 months and they will not all be financial in nature or makeup...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:26
MoReGoLd (@Envy) ID#348286:
HeHeHeHeHe SOros is still bitchin cause he lost 2 Billion in the Russian meltdown.......

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:26
JTF (CRB 140 implies Dow 1000) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
All: I would agree with the Oldman on that. I think what he is referring to is that we will have worldwide deflation if the CRB goes to 140. The US markets may be stimulated for a time due to the cheap cost of goods, but eventually we will be brought down by a horrendously unfavorable balance of trade, and rising unemployment in all parts of our economy adversely affected by cheap foreign goods or cheap raw materials.

Looks like the farmers will be hit first.

If we weaken the dollar to fend off deflation in this country, we will lessen the adverse effect of the above on our economy -- at the cost of a rising price of gold.

If various countries decide to set up major trade barriers, as they might despite competitive devaluations, then the 'gig' is probably up worldwide.

I agree that the IMF may just 'give' Brazil the cash they need -- this time around. If Brazil gets back on their feet their goods will be much cheaper. But the underlying problems will still be there. I don't have a clue how the IMF will deal with Mexico, given that their debt is comparable to that of Brazil, and their foreign trade is substantial, though not as much as Brazil.

My guess, however, is that we in the US will not have a full-blown drag-out depression until about 2010. Around that time gold is likely to skyrocket to over $1000-$2000/oz.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:26
cherokee (@......cow-town......) ID#288230:
Copyright © 1998 cherokee All rights reserved

chop-asaki from the big d....

who'd of thought silver would fly south? with the buffet-man
having bought soooooo much.....i mean, EVERYBODY knows silver
is going to the moon......and look at it now....

everybody knows oil is going south.......time for me to head
north....more long term calls.....gold too by gar!

i found a collection ( 15+ ) of miniature gold coins from around the world today at a pawn shop outside of ft. worth....guy wanted $200....would
not back off his price either....going to buy them tomorrow.....
the size if these little beauties is very appealing......about the size
of a finger-nail...when will the mini's be for sale here? i likes 'em!

cherokee!;....counting.the.minutes....trading.cellulose.and.ink.for.gold.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:24
NTEOTWAWKI (@JTF) ID#390337:
I have imagined what the Mt. Clare shops must have been like in it's heyday. Dozen's of steam engines belching sooty coal smoke. Hundreds of hissing steam snakes from all directions. Now these beasts lie resting and rusting. Only Ross Rowland's C&O Greenbriar number 614T & a Reading T1 are still alive here. The excursion trains are all pulled by those deisel contraptions which will never catch on I tell ya.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:23
SWP1 (Hey! Gold coin experts - - ) ID#233199:
Could some of you please post your expectations for the Mountie after it is no longer available from Bart or the mint..I mean in addition to the effect of the price of gold.

Thanks - I'd like to own a few and I'm wonering if they are worth the premium over the Maple Leaf coin.


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:23
Envy (Soros: System Caused World Crisis ) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
WASHINGTON ( AP ) -- Billionaire financier George Soros said Thursday the global economic crisis of the past 17 months shows that the international financial system is broken and needs to be fixed. He said that while many countries affected by the crisis suffered from misalignment of exchange rates, poor banking systems and inadequate financial regulation and crony capitalism or budget deficits, there was no common link to the spread of the financial contagion. International capital flows must have been at the root of the problem, Soros told an audience at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies. Soros said attention should not be confined to the countries affected by the crisis that started in Thailand in July 1997 and then spread to Russia and Latin America because the international banking system must also be at fault. Otherwise how could it have been threatened with a meltdown when Russia defaulted on its debt and devalued the ruble last summer and the Federal Reserve had to rescue the hedge fund Long-Term Capital Market in October.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpfn0f.htm

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:22
MoReGoLd (@bondsman / Eldo) ID#348286:
Ample Warning, maybe Soros will get it, but not the common Joe.
When did we find out about LTCM --- after the whole thing had been bailed out with our money.
That is exactly why when Gold starts moving, it should hit like a flash storm........

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:19
bondsman (Eldorado:) ID#263119:
Copyright © 1998 bondsman/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Things can't deteriorate so quickly. The sequence of events would likely be:
1. The stock market caves in big ( this practically ensures the deflation/depression ) .
2. The authorities inform us that the economy is sound and that the problems in the financial world won't spread into the real economy.
3. Furious rate cutting and intermediate stock market rallies.
4. The long bond climbs.
5. News of debt defaults by developing countries and corporations.
6. News that prices are falling.
It will probably be 2 years before the authorities acknowledge a depression much less contemplate decisive steps to counteract it.

The rate cutting game cannot be called decisive steps. It is designed to keep the powerful class of bondholders happy. Otherwise, why not try to decisively pump up the money supply, reduce reserve requirements, margin requirements,...
But this would be inflationary, making the bondholders very unhappy.
Let's not forget that there are a lot of people out there who really don't care if there is a depression. Hey, if you got the money, you can then buy up distressed estates at bargain prices.

When they finally determine to really act, the process will be too far advanced to be stopped.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:13
tolerant1 (And the beat goes on...and on...and on...and on...) ID#20359:
http://www.tv-u.com/ray.html

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:10
Envy (@arkbuilder) ID#219363:
Yes, I did get your most excellent list of references, and I thank you much for posting them. Most of my questions have been answered now by Kitco's fine folks.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:08
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
bondsman -- What makes you think we would have ample warning? What makes you think that even should they implement some kind of 'golden' currency that it won't contain its own set of crosses. Remember that absolute power corrupts absolutely. They'll make you think that you've won when you've actually lost! Oh yea, present your papers please'. You may of course substitute 'papers' with 'wafer' if you so deign.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:08
JTF (C&O Alleghenies 2-6-6-6) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
NTEOTWAWKI: I'm a little rusty. Got out my E.P Alexander.

Builder- Lima Automotive Works

Cylinders - ( 4 ) 22 1/2 by 33

Weight - 1,098,540 lb

Steam Pressure -- 260lb

Fuel - 25 tons

Water - 25,000 gal

Dia. Drivers - 67

Tractive Effort - 110,200 lb

R.R Class - H8

I always enjoy the sound of these locomotives -- something stirs in the human spirit -- perhaps because they are so simple with all the accutrements of power where the whole world can see them. And -- each engineer seemed to have his own style with the steam whistle. The diesel never came close.

There are 2 UP Big Boys ( non operational ) at the St Louis Railway museum in Missouri. Worth the trip if you are in the area.

If you like operating locomotives, you might want to try out the Mt Washington Cog railway on the NH/Vt border in the White Mountains. Worth a trip -- though a little scary, given what seems to fall off on every trip up or down. And -- the view is spectacular if not foggy. Then there is the Strasburg Railway in Ahmish country between Paradise and Intercourse. In Calif, there is a little steam/diesel railway near Ft. Bragg -- forget the colorful name -- the 'Skunk' line, I think. Another in Bryson City in the Smokies about 15 miles west of Cherokee. Never been on the Narrow Guage Railway in the Grand Canyon, or the Reading 2124.


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:04
kapex (Used to know a fine gentleman back in the mid to late 80's.) ID#218222:
He was 94 years young, and worked as a school administrator during the depression. The ONE big thing IHHO, that caused the depression was...........Debt!!!! Gee, we don't have much of that stuff around the good old US of A now, do we?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 22:00
bondsman (Push up gold price) ID#263119:
To Moregold: Galbraith in one of his books reports that during the Great Depression the Roosevelt Government entertained the idea of buying gold to push up the gold price in an attempt to stem the deflation. The idea was later abandoned but Galbraith thinks it was not such a bad idea.

I have forgotten precisely which book it was, otherwise I would give a reference. In any case this is measure born of desperation. We will have ample advance warning before such steps are contemplated again.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:51
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
Tyro -- Wish everyone would simply stop using the inflation/deflation terms. Debt indigestion would be better at this point of the game. And until that is 'eliminated', ( from one end or the other ) times won't be particularly 'jolly'.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:50
arkbuilder (Envy (re: Alternate Power)) ID#247447:
I think you had signed off before I posted on Nov 26 20:41. If you are still interested in alternate power that post has some sources you may be interested in.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:48
Tyro (Time to tuck kids into bed.) ID#369174:
G'nite, all.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:44
Tyro (KITCO at it's best!!! Thanks, Bart!) ID#369174:
Copyright © 1998 Tyro/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
And many thanks to those who have posted in the last few hours!

My question to all was both a legitimate question, and an attempt to end the foodfight that was starting. Salud!

That a deflation would be defined by less money M1, M2 . . . Yes.
Also coupled with that would be a decreased VELOCITY of money. ( I'm outta my league here, help me! )
We're definitely talking about a debt collapse/debt cycle.
IF the dollar continues in its role of the supremo currency, Then the US should see price deflation. IF the dollar has to SHARE the role with the Euro, the Yen, etc., then we will likely see price inflation. Yes.

Some here see this magic dollar situation continuing thru next fall, others see it starting to fall now/Jan with the introduction of the Euro.
I have been waiting for the DOW to fall for 3 years. Based only on the fact that it has been kept going longer than I think it should have already and 'they' still have more arrows, I'm going to side with those that think it will last till next fall, and everything will be blamed on Y2K. Whenever it happens, it won't be pretty.

Again, thanks. Any comments?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:34
NTEOTWAWKI (@JTF - Hudson) ID#390337:
I often take my son to the B&O railroad museum downtown Balmore.
We both get to jump into the cab of the C&O Alleghenys ( 2-6-6-6 ) in the yard ( bigger than the Big Boys! )
And get this, there all Y2K compliant!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:32
Envy (Silver Prices Predicted to Improve) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
SPOKANE, Wash. ( AP ) -- Silver prices could more than double in the next year, but gold will likely stay low, financial experts told the Northwest Mining Association convention on Thursday. Precious metals prices have been hurt by the same economic forces that hammered the Asian and Russian economies, but things are looking up, some experts contend. We are at the bottom of a depressing run, said Douglas Silver, an analyst for Balfour Holdings. Things are changing.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpfn0e.htm
--
Wow, somebody had something good to say about silver ...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:30
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
MoReGoLd -- They'll PAY Brazil to take the money. They'll bail out any and all LTCMs that come along. You won't hear about most of them. But all these things they'll only do until their timing on everything else is right. Then the spigot and 'forgiveness' comes to an abbreviated end and 'they' go into hiding. The rest of us will be blowing the dust off of supplies and things.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:28
Envy (Japan Stocks Slip in Early Trading) ID#219363:
TOKYO ( AP ) -- The dollar was sharply lower against the yen in early trading Friday following a decline on Wall Street. Japanese stocks fell moderately. The dollar bought 117.84 yen in early trading, down 1.39 yen from late Thursday in Tokyo and also below its level of 118.60 yen in New York. The U.S. currency weakened as investors were discouraged by the continuing decline in U.S. stocks and concerns over the Brazilian economy.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpfn0d.htm

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:27
MoReGoLd (@OH Yes, and almost forgot.....) ID#348286:
Greensparrow & co. may actually Push Gold Up in an effort to reverse the deflationary winds............

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:23
MoReGoLd (@Oleman) ID#348286:
I agree, we are/will go into deflation, and IT will steal the show from Y2K!
The blatant manipulation has worked well so far but the cracks have appeared, and they are spreading. Note IMF BRAZIL package now in doubt - I think it will go through, but LATAM will crack.
How many LTCM's will Greenie bail out?
Greenbaum and co. will eventually cut US rates to 0.5%, but look at how it's helped Japansky.
If Oil does not turn soon, we will be caught in this spiral.
Bill Gates will be handing out his $100 Mills at home.......

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:16
THE Priest (i just like to say hello ) ID#369333:
to the group

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:16
ravenfire (hohum...) ID#333126:
S. Korea to cut interest rates by 1/3 ( one third, not 1/3% )
http://www.bloomberg.com/news2.cgi?T=news2_ft_topww.ht&s=335183272

Japanese economy to contract more than 1.8%
http://www.bloomberg.com/news2.cgi?T=news2_ft_topww.ht&s=335200772

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:12
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
Oleman's a trip! Har! But HOW VERY RIGHT....

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:06
Shadowfax (Oleman's de man...he's early tonight.) ID#288264:
Copyright © 1998 Shadowfax/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
oleman . . Thu, Dec 3, 7:03PM CST ( -0600 GMT )

If CRB is going to 140, then Dow is going below 1000. That's ONE THOUSAND. If SP is going to 600, then Klinton is going to jail. If either or all happen, I shall be both pleased as punch and rich as Croesus. But one of the results of these predictions coming true which will make me the happiest may NOT be what some of the predictors themselves want. That is the total destruction of the corrupt system that has given us the Klintonista New World Order and the 9000 Dow. Some of you young liberals who are screaming the loudest for the big bear to come, gonna be big-time surprised when you get what you THINK you want. It aint gonna be nice, and it could get quite noisy, for those of you who live in major metropolitan areas, in the midst of a deflationary depression. And make no mistake about it, when you call for 140 CRB and 600 SPX you are calling for a full-fledged deflationary depression, with all that entails. Course, most dont know enough history to even know what I'm tawkin about.: )



oleman . . Thu, Dec 3, 7:09PM CST ( -0600 GMT )

g9: fools will move to Canada. The wise will move to where honest people are well armed.



oleman . . Thu, Dec 3, 7:20PM CST ( -0600 GMT )

I dont wish you bears to get the wrong impression about what I think. I agree with you on the ultimate destination. I just think that the most powerful people in the history of planet earth are not about to go quietly into that good night. They will use every cent available and every trick in the book to keep themselves in control. As soup says, they WILL ultimately lose, but they still have some good arrows in their quiver, imo. Americans been spending much more than they been earning ever since Klinton has been in power. No wonder they FEEEEL GOOOD! Its been like manna fallin from heaven, and it has made the sheeple quite passive. They dont want to give up either their over-consumption, nor their whining, perverted President, whom they, mistakenly, think has made it possible. It aint gonna be easy for them to face when it does come. God!, I hope I live to see it! I'd give a cool million right now to insure that g9's prediction of 600 SPX comes by Super Bowl Sunday. I really would. Even if part of the deal was that I could not trade it.: )



oleman . . Thu, Dec 3, 7:26PM CST ( -0600 GMT )

grizz: Maybe you can get gully to come to Hotlanta and help you out when the welfare checks dont come, or there's nothing in the stores for the checks to buy.: ) gone.........



oleman . . Thu, Dec 3, 7:29PM CST ( -0600 GMT )

g9: The harvest is past, the summer is ended,-----and I'm still long stocks!!: )



oleman . . Thu, Dec 3, 7:30PM CST ( -0600 GMT )

I DID take out a little put insurance on the pm rally. I'll get excited, then flat, then short, as my MA's turn down. Until then, I'll relax and enjoy.



oleman . . Thu, Dec 3, 7:38PM CST ( -0600 GMT )

gully: didnt mean to try to educate you politically. Just think its amusing to hear some of the gloom and doom from people who dont have any idea what it is. So, I'll say this and then go for the nite: If someone has an aversion to guns for self defense, and lives in a metropolitan area with several hundred thousand violent, well armed people who are COUNTING on the government checks being in the mail on time, and the goods being in the stores when the checks come, that person better think twice when forecasting an economic cataclysm. That person would last about 15 seconds. And The fact that Windsor, Ont is across the river from Detroit, aint no comfort. gone---------------





gullly . . Thu, Dec 3, 7:52PM CST ( -0600 GMT )

Ole.You scare me too..are there so many folk who cannotor will not join into acivilsed set up..in USA..i recall LA riots,we had riots in TO too,same year,how many folk think its that dangerous..Im gonn keep looking at the good things i see,and change my handle to happy Ostrich. Globex on the move,but in a supicious walk up fashion.



oleman . . Thu, Dec 3, 7:53PM CST ( -0600 GMT )

breck: Tryin to gtet outta here. the war department is calling me. Yes, I think they will use the opportunity presented by the economic and social chaos of a deflationary depression to attempt to arrogatge to themselves total power. For example, I'm almost sure that they would suspend the '00 elections, declare martial law, confiscate the guns of evryone outside of the urban areas where their supporters live, etc, etc, ...............bbml..............


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 21:03
MoReGoLd (@MaNiPuLaTiOn - Little doubt in my mind) ID#348286:
Check out the Kitco 3 day chart, POG plunges in last hour of trade each day......... http:///gold.graph.html

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:55
Envy (World Bank Denies Criticism of IMF) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
WASHINGTON ( AP ) --World Bank President James Wolfensohn denied published reports Thursday that the bank had criticized handling of the Asian financial crisis by its sister institution, the International Monetary Fund.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpfn0b.htm
--
Somebody needs to teach this guy about public relations. As soon as I deny ever having taken drugs, I become associated with them. If I deny making huge charitable donations to the cancer society, I'm associated with that instead. If they wanted to deny something, they should have denied that their policies are going to create a dangerously high amount of growth in Russia over the next decade.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:55
MoReGoLd (@DOW plunges 190, Gold stocks down also) ID#348286:
I thought we were starting to get decoupled from following general equities but alas not yet. Of course the POG was down also, but it would be bullish to see investors flock to the percieved safe haven ( Gold ) on down days like today.
I would assume that tax loss selling is in full swing, and I expect it to end by mid Dec, or better. Since the losses have been much milder this year than last, it should not be as big a factor.

Stay long and stay well.........

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:54
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
Inventories are meaningless for trading purposes. Inventories in Comex warehouses are even more meaningless.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:53
IDT (Glenn) ID#228136:
Any idea what happened the last hour on the Comex. Are you still long?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:52
RJ (..... They just announced on CNN .....) ID#411259:

That the escaped murderer in Texas has been found floating dead in a river.

The ID is positive.

Who say's there is no justice?

Not me

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:49
RJ (..... Theme .....) ID#411259:

I need to go back into the office for a couple hours. I'll try to answer your question tomorrow. I spoke much last year of hidden inventories in London, but this is only part of the picture.

OK

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:47
MoReGoLd (@OH No, Now 747's ) ID#348286:
Copyright © 1998 MoReGoLd/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
US issues 747 fuel pump order, Boeing disputes risk

By Tim Dobbyn

WASHINGTON, Dec 3 ( Reuters ) - The Federal Aviation Administration on Thursday asked airlines operating Boeing 747 aircraft to immediately cease running fuel pumps in dry tanks because of the risk of explosion.

The FAA asked operators to leave enough fuel in the center tank of all models and cease using the horizontal stabilizer tank of the 747-400 altogether to prevent the fuel pumps overheating after reports of premature wear on pump bearings.

``Operated in dry conditions ... this metal-on-metal contact could cause hot spots and sparks, and a possible explosion,'' the FAA said in a statement.

Boeing Co ( NYSE:BA - news ) spokesman Russ Young disputed the risk of an explosion. ``We've done tests with those pumps, and we're convinced this problem would not ignite fuel vapor,'' he said.

The order could disrupt long-range operation of the 747-400, causing airlines to introduce a refueling stop or carry lighter loads to maintain range.

Young said Boeing was working as quickly as it could to resolve the bearing problem so the 747-400 horizontal stabilizer tanks could be used again.

Continued operation with the center tank is permitted under two alternate procedures that shut the pumps off before the fuel is exhausted. Wing fuel tanks are not affected by the order.

Normally, the pumps in both the horizontal stabilizer tank and center tank are run until the tank is dry.

There were about 700 suspect bearings in new and overhauled pumps, and part kits, the FAA said.

The pumps normally operate for at least 20,000 hours before removal. The recently discovered problem pumps had only been operating for 200 hours.

The FAA said the problem was not related to the 1996 crash of a TWA-operated 747 in the ocean off New York that killed all 230 people on board when its center fuel tank exploded. The exact cause of that crash is still being investigated.

The agency said the type of bearing wear involved in Thursday's emergency order had not been found on the pumps recovered from that disaster.

The FAA said 246 U.S.-registered 747s were affected by the order. The FAA's lead is usually followed by other countries, where a further 841 of the jumbojets are in operation.

``The cost to U.S. operators has not been determined,'' the FAA said.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:44
Year2000 (PM Mutual Funds ) ID#182184:
Okay, all of you experts... Why have the PM fund prices gone down in the past week or two?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:44
ravenfire (theft of privacy on a global scale) ID#333126:
http://www.wassenaar.org/

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/981203/3l.html

1984 anyone?

significance of this? potentially huge. what does it mean? hmm... I'll leave that to others on this forum to discuss ( those more eloquent than I )

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:44
Theme Investor (RJ....is who I meant.) ID#372400:
Thanks

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:41
Theme Investor (EJ....Silver Stocks Situation) ID#372400:
Would appreciate your take on the increase in the Comex silver stocks.
Do you think it is a manipulated increase. What do you hear in the trade
regarding the buildup. Do you think conditions are ripe for a short squeeze in silver.
Thanks for your insight.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:38
EJ (RJ ) ID#45173:
Thanks. I continue my education here at Kitco U.
-EJ

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:34
RJ (..... Everybody .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

I recall much talk of COMEX silver inventories.

I have compile the month end closing inventory numbers from 1968 through 1997. I could get all this from the same source but am too lazy to dig up the month end totals for February 1998 through present. I know someone posted the daily numbers, but could somebody post the monthly numbers for these months? I have January 1998 at 104,105,190 ounces.

When these hole are plugged, I have promised sharefin that I would supply the entire spreadsheet to him. He could post it on his own page if he chooses.

I tried a few tentative charts on inventories and prices, but could not find any obvious correlations. Perhaps someone else out there could crack this code, yes?

Yep


I would be happy to e-mail the completed spreadsheet in MS Excel 97 format to anyone who is interested. E-mail me at rjd@pacbell.net and I will forward the file to you. I will also make a graphic of the inventories for those that just want to print out the numbers.

Righty O

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:29
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
Envy -- I suppose that if you don't play, you don't pay. No, wait a minute, that's don't pay, you don't play. No, no, no, that can't be right. Let's see. I'll get this right eventually...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:25
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
Silverbaronn -- HAR!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:21
Envy (@Eldorado) ID#219363:
Since the highs of July money has continued to flow into mutual funds except for a few weeks there during the downturn. And yet the bond market and the stock market are both sitting lower than they were previously. Wonder where that money went, hmm. Poof!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:18
HOOSIER (WANTED: GOLD LEASING OPPORTUNITIES!) ID#401183:
If interest rates in this country ( U.S.A. ) go to 0% +/-, and we get into a situation/state where banks discontinue to borrow money to the masses like myself, does anyone know the specific places/backdoor shanties/money brothels, where I can lease gold and sell it to finance my economic state just like the hedge funds with all their Nobel Prize winning management do and if I mismanage my finances, what's Stanford Weil of Travelers number to convene for my bailout?
Go Gold!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:18
Envy (@RJ) ID#219363:
Thanks for all the information last night. I'll keep my twin talking during the day so you can get a good night's sleep. Not much to do over there in Japan I guess, maybe buy some cheap property.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:17
arby (Bill2j) ID#72316:
Ain't no bears out here in the woods,,,

Just us Corrections

rb

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:17
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
Envy -- I liken it more to piling the dry fallen leaves ever higher. I think I glimpsed a curl of smoke out of the corner of my eye emanating from it.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:16
esotericist (MARC FABER on CNBC - IMF to collapse.) ID#224230:
Segment 2 of his interview : one more segment to go. And I quote....
Buy gold - the IMF will go broke and we'll have a new world financial order based on GOLD - valued at between 1,000 and 3,000 an ounce. In the enxt few years ( I think he said 3-5 years there )

For those who don't know, Marc Faber is a most well know investment guru in Hongkong - well respected for having accurately called previous market moves. HongKong listen when he speaks.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:15
Silverbaron (Action in the metals got you down and you just want to blow some stuff up?) ID#290456:

Check out the links at the bottom of this
page...they are completely out of control!

AGD Antics and Mayhem Page

http://www2.be.com/~dbg/antics/

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:14
THC (Japanese demand) ID#375329:
was down from Nov. to Oct., but October demand was pretty much at record breaking levels so a slowdown is not that shocking.....apparently the Tanaka figures are not really taken as bad news here......

With the yen up again I expect more Japanese purchases....how much I don't know.....

THC

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:10
Envy (Mutual Fund Assets Rise to $816.99B) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
NEW YORK ( AP ) -- Assets in the nation's retail money market mutual funds increased by $8.14 billion to $816.99 billion, the Investment Company Institute said Thursday. Assets of taxable money market funds grew by $6.08 billion to $672.08 billion in the retail category for the week ended Wednesday, the Washington-based mutual fund trade group said. Tax-exempt fund assets increased by $2.06 billion to $144.92 billion. Assets of institutional money market funds increased by $4.54 billion to $570.08 billion for the same period. Among institutional funds, taxable money market fund assets grew by $2.42 billion to $520.18 billion; assets of tax-exempt funds grew by $2.12 billion to $49.90 billion. Total money market assets stood at $1.387 trillion for the week.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpfn03.htm
--
Feed the fires.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:03
RJ (..... EJ .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

That is a good point, and I do not deny a certain bias in reporting by the folks who tend to report that kind of stuff.

The reports I read often speak of stop loss selling. A good example was yesterday. The early reports only said there was heavy selling triggering stop loss selling. This was not profit taking in silver, it was selling it into the dirt - a run on the stops. This was understood in the first few words because the market reports have a certain consistency in the terms the use and how they are defined.

This continuity disappears when one branches out into the general media where confusion reigns.

Your point that selling is selling is way valid, all will force the price down. But who is doing the selling, and what their motives are, is what you need to discern before you can feel comfortable in reacting to the drop. I would not buy a dip on a day in which new shorts were placed, the price drops dramatically, and the market closes on the low. That I would not do this cost me 10 cents profit in silver today, but I do not covet that dime. If the funds want to run it down, I won't get in their way, let 'em do it.

If, however, I was reading of long liquidation, I may have been tempted to nibble at the overnight low, figuring there are other bargain hunters like me out there. This is how the type of selling would be an important piece of info to know.

This next is not directed at you, but it fits in with the point I am trying to make so I will make it:

Somebody last night gleefully reported that silver was down to 4.56 in the overseas markets. First, this poster quoted the bid price, which I find confusing, unless he has an agenda which is furthered by increasing silver fears. I am not saying this is so, but I do wonder why a bid price was quoted.

More importantly, many posters pant and gleefully report a continued drop in overseas markets, as if the collapse is continuing.

If the funds managed to hit a bunch of stops in New York, and the market closed at the low, this means a gap down in Asia, yes? What would anybody expect but a fresh round of sell stops being triggered by this gap down? This always happens on a gap if stops are tight.

I went into the office last night to call a client, a reader of this site, to tell ( him/her/it ) not to worry about the breathless proclamations of some posters, who apparently do not understand the process is as predictable as the sun rising.

All this works, in reverse, when discussing short covering. When a flurry of buy stops are hit, and the overseas markets gap up, buy stops in the overseas markets are now being triggered. If the stops are way tight, several buy stop levels may be breached before profit taking by the longs and new selling by the shorts forces it back down. This does not mean the Great Bull is on, it only means the market is adjusting to a new trading range. The market adjusts a lot.

The first couple of hours in Asia, after a moderate drop in silver or gold, will tell you nothing of what may happen on the morrow.

OK




Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:02
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
Tortfeasor -- It really matters very little to them HOW they manage the outcome, though I'm certain they have a bottom line. The monetary system is but one tool for them. Let us read what is written upon their 'money': This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private. So what is a note but debt. So replace the word 'note' with 'debt' in the above. This debt is legal tender for all debts, public and private. HAR! And they should care about 'monetary woes'? They only really want your property and your servitude. So shutup, consume and die!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 20:00
esotericist (@ravenfire HongKong shillgame) ID#224230:
Just watching Marc Faber on CNBC patiently explaiing to the talking heads how this mortgage rate game is a shill game run by the HK government ( itself owned by the HK Property company cabal ) .

And explaining how it will come unstuck soon leaving HK property owners and its stock market gamblers high and dry.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:57
Bill2j (Bears and gold) ID#259400:
I hear strange noises out there in the dark. Could it be? Do you suppose the bear that was given up for dead has come back to life? Oh, surely not. Surely the bull took the pains to drive a stake through his heart. Still, the noises are unmistakable. I hear a large animal thrashing around in the woods. Sure sounds like a bear. Sure smells like a bear. That other strange noise appears to be closer also. I still think I can hear the sound of The Great Golden Steam Engine off in the distance. The rumble grows louder each day. Interesting day in the markets coming up today.
Crazy Bill

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:57
Envy (Rates) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Dangerous games. Just because the FED lowers the rate to 1 percent, or even negative percent, it doesn't really mean anything. By the time rates get to 1 percent, the banks won't be lending anymore. We'll just have to look at those 1 percent loans through the front window of the bank, because no bank is going to lend cash at that rate. That's the danger, running the whole thing up against a credit crunch where nobody wants to loan out money or buy up debt that is only paying a few points in interest over a gazillion years. When the beast turns, you get stuck with all those cash commitments holding bonds you can't sell w/o taking a capital loss. There is a point of no return out there where something beautiful and attractive starts becoming really impossible to get, and that's cash. I hope we don't go that way.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:50
Tortfeasor (Interest rates) ID#37463:
I think that interest rates will decline to the point that if we will agree to borrow greenbacks the feds will pay us interest. Sort of a negative interest thing. Not unlike opening a savings account with other people's money. Maybe Mr. Greenspam will take a liking to this idea.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:50
Envy (Holiday Season Job Cuts Continue) ID#219363:
NEW YORK ( AP ) -- Three more U.S. companies announced significant job cuts Thursday, joining the ranks of several others announcing layoffs during this holiday season. Health care giant Johnson & Johnson, Alliant Foodservice Inc. and Weirton Steel Corp. all announced labor cuts Thursday, bringing the weekly tally of new job cut announcements by U.S. companies to 36,000 worldwide.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpfn05.htm

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:47
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
Copyright © 1998 Eldorado/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Personally, I view the terms 'inflation' and 'deflation' as being more meaningful in an economic environment that hasn't been maxed out in debt and its subsequent payments. In that environment, so what the fed prints another quadzillion units of fun. A few can borrow them. So what the feds lower the cost of having fun a couple points. Only a few others can borrow them. So what the feds begin to give those units away, asking that you simply pay those back and no more. Only a few can pay THOSE back on top of their current payments. The few get fewer. The game will subsequently only play with either more and more debt rescheduling ( no charges 'till hell freezes over ) or pure and simple debt forgiveness. 'Course, the monetary units still build up in the system. Once a debt-based system has come into existence, its ending IS at that time written. Just like the time before, and the time before that, and................ Ad nauseum!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:38
ravenfire (mortgages in HK getting easier to obtain) ID#333126:
http://www.scmp.com/news/template/Front-Template.idc?artid=19981204000332051&top=front&template=Default.htx&maxfieldsize=2838

government is guaranteeing the extra margin.

don't forget to view the related stories ... especially the one where this guy relates how he can now spend half of his income every month paying off his debt on the mortgage he can now afford...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:33
RJ (..... Lurkey .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

You know I can't be seen talking to you. Not after all that missile technology you personally turned over to the Chinese.

Oh, and the only reason Schwartz was the Dems biggest donor, is because they have yet to stumble on the private list of where the REAL money comes from. I saw your name at the top of that list….. Don't deny it, you are a closet Dem! Come clean and admit your Dem-ness, Demboy!

I hope all that cash you funneled into Dem coffers bought you at least a few nights in the Lincoln Bedroom - hell, for that kind of cash, they should toss in the Lincoln Bedspread and Pillow Sham Set, knitted by the bony hands of Mary Todd herself!

I finally know what LGB stands for, Left Goldbugs Behind.

Admit it Demboy! You traded us all down the river for a pillow sham and a rickshaw ride in Beijing.

We are on to your scent…..

Nowhere to hide

Nope



Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:31
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
EJ -- The dipsters who were buying today were the ones to be the fall guys. Those who were selling will buy 'em back at lower prices. Hey, perhaps those who were buying today were those who sold Monday, and they just couldn't 'bear' to be out of the market any longer...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:28
EJ (RJ ) ID#45173:
But does the term profit-taking accurately reflect the event? For example, you never hear the term loss-taking used as in the market dropped 186 points today in loss-taking. Certainly not everyone selling was doing so at a profit.
-EJ

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:24
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
Copyright © 1998 Eldorado/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Gold Dancer -- So far, those nearly zero rates haven't helped Japan out of its problems. The old bad debt on the books still exists. That slate needs to be wiped, one way or another! Beyond that, a non-usury based system is required. Pay back exactly what was borrowed. Any interest, no matter how small, causes the destruction of the system.
I believe another important item is that NO government shall borrow ANY money! That which transpires between other contractual parties is between them, and NO government shall bail them out of 'difficulties'. I.E., nobody becomes too big to make an idiot of themself. Also, since a currency is made for the people of a sovereign country whose government is responsible for its well being, NO nations currency will exist outside of its boundaries! There's probably an item or two herein that may require discussion.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:23
Donald (@Kitco) ID#26793:
XAU/Spot Ratio = .226. The 233 day moving average is .248

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:20
Donald (@Kitco) ID#26793:
Dow/Gold Ratio = 30.34. The 233 day moving average is 29.20

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:17
Crystal Ball (CBS MarketWatch says there's value in gold shares) ID#287404:
Copyright © 1998 Crystal Ball/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/current/stwatch.htx?source=htx/http2_mw

Gold fields have takeover candidates

By Thom Calandra, CBS MarketWatch Columns & Opinions
Last Update: 12:38 PM ET Dec 3, 1998

SAN FRANCISCO ( CBS.MW ) -- Here's another gold view for those who still believe in the fading metal, this time from John Doody, editor of Gold Stock Analyst newsletter. Doody, in San Francisco this week for a lackluster gold mining conference, gets the respect of contrarians James Grant and Bill Fleckenstein, two folks who are healthily skeptical of the robust U.S. stock market. You can usually identify gold bugs by their wild-eyed enthusiasm for the metal. Even during times like these, when inflation in limp, Saddam is impotent and central banks would rather own paper derivatives than precious metals. Not so Doody. He says his no- b.s. approach has made Gold Stock Analyst a kind of Value Line for gold stocks, mostly because of Doody's fundamental analysis. ( The other day, we discussed the nearly apocalyptic views of James Dines, another newsletter writer. Dines sees hyper-inflation across the globe in coming years and says gold-mining shares have bottomed. See the column. )
Doody is more interested in the nitty-gritty of individual companies. He sees consolidation across the mining industry, much like what is opening in the world's oil fields, as the price of gold sinks. Gold prices ( GC=G9 ) , as measured by New York-traded futures contracts, are at an 18-year low of about $295 an ounce. Many precious metals mutual funds in the United States are down 30 percent for the year -- and more. Gold mining shares ( $XAU ) , while 30 percent or so above their yearly lows, are virtually unchanged from a year ago. See Futures Movers. Among Doody's favorites is Anglogold Ltd. ( AU ) , which debuted earlier this year on the New York Stock Exchange. The South African mining company produces about 6.5 million ounces of gold a year and has about 140 million proven ounces in reserve. That means it is huge. In fact, says Doody, Anglogold is too big to grow. But with all those ounces, it will trade higher when gold does. Doody gets excited about mining companies whose proven reserves are just the right size to make them a glittering catch for larger acquiring companies. At the top of that takeover list is TVX Gold ( TVX ) on the New York Stock Exchange. At 1 3/4, the stock is not far from a yearly low. The company's stock market worth is tiny at $300 million. Doody says TVX produces 500,000 ounces a year at a cash cost of less than $200 an ounce. It has about 6 million ounces of proven reserves. TVX also plans to build two mines in Greece, where mining costs are dirt cheap. Doody estimates the Greek mines will produce 400,000 ounces a year at a cash cost of less than $100 an ounce. Alas, TVX needs money to grow, as much as $500 million. Banks have told the company it needs another $100 million of equity and then they'll finance the balance, Doody says. I think the whole package is so attractive, that anyone who would venture ( the Greek mines ) would buy everything. I expect a bidding war. Doody's other takeover possibilities include Greenstone Resources ( GRERF ) on Nasdaq, Canyon Resources ( CAU ) on the American Stock Exchange, Venezuela Goldfields ( VENGF ) on Nasdaq and Crown Resources ( CRRS ) on Nasdaq.

Thom Calandra is CBS MarketWatch's editor-in-chief.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:06
Gold Dancer (Interest rates) ID#377196:
Copyright © 1998 Gold Dancer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Maybe Alan will keep lowering rates to 0. We would then have interest
free money. There would be no diference between cash and debt. So they
just might as well print up currency. Can you imagin a stack of
$20s. They would have to hire the Space Shuttle!!!

But think about it. O % interest. Just like Japan. Interest free money.
What would people do? Would they spend it by transfering it into
real goods? What would you do if the banks paid no interest and actually charged you a fee every month for keeping it safe.
Are we headed in this direction? This is not something we read about
anyplace but it comes to mind once in a while. Interest free money.
Does this not solve one of the major problems of the fiat banking
system? How about negative interest rates? That will solve ANY depression
in a flash.

Just some thoughts while I fall asleep watching my gold stocks.

Thanks, GD

We must watch this for a possibility: This is what a gold coin system
is. Then it is a question of how many dollars to a gold coin.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:05
Mike Sheller (Brother LGB) ID#348257:
pyramids and magnets can solve all our health problems and represent great advancement over modern western medicine.

( ;- ) How the hell are you? Been watching OPEN?


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:05
TYoung (kapex...I think it is worse than even we think....) ID#317193:
The fiat paper game may really be on the edge...the foundation is debt...debt default, by necessity, causes more debt default...derivatives...how close are we? Got me...maybe they can save us for a few years, maybe NOT.

Tom

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:04
rhody (@ all: apologies for the miscall on lease rates and spot ) ID#411440:
Copyright © 1998 rhody/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
silver: When I was posting that the rise in one month lease rates
for silver was indicating that silver would tank today on COMEX,
little did I know that it had already happened in Asia, and
COMEX saw a partial rebound in spot POS. I may never make another
price prediction based on lease rates again! On the other hand, if
the lease rate spike indicated borrowed silver that can only be
sold, and the spot price rise today indicated buying, maybe the
people who leased the silver haven't used it to short the market yet.
I suspect silver is still at risk. Sorry if anyone got hurt today
listening to this fool. I noticed that silver stocks rose on COMEX
today. Could it be that the leased silver just ended up in COMEX
warehouses instead of being sold into a rally? Rhody

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:01
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#226299:
Copyright © 1998 Eldorado/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Well, the US has essentially been the buyer of last resort over the past ten years. Notice that it has helped Japan stave off the inevitable that long. Wonder who will be the next buyer, as it certainly won't be US! Staving off the problem is occurring now with all the rate cuts, each having less effect. They can push on the string until the ass-end passes the front, and they will. Won't make any difference. Overall, the string has made no progress. 'Course, they could continue to push the string until they are actually 'pulling' it! Does that mean the feds would also be the purchasers of last resort AND be forgiving debt, OR paying you to BUY something?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:00
RJ (..... EJ .....) ID#411259:

The term, profit taking tells us that longs are bailing out ( or shorts covering, but you referred only to selling, which is where I will confine my remarks. )

Long liquidation is not nearly as bearish
As fresh selling into the market - read: new shorts.

When you peruse market reports, you can normally read profit taking as just that, longs taking profits. When you read the word sell in a report, this, generally but not always, refers to spec short sales.

OK



Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 19:00
Aldebaran (LO 06 99 C 3.50 05/17/1999 oil) ID#256365:
Copyright © 1998 Aldebaran/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I was reading the settlements for options on nymex this is from Dec 2, 98 I don't have dec 3 settelments yet.

LO 06 99 C 3.50 05/17/1999

That is an option contract on sweet light crude oil It has a strike price of 3 dollars and 50 cents. It is a call option. The next one listed is something like $10 For it to appear on the settelments page of nymex indicates to me that there is open interest in this contract.If that is true, it means that some one wrote an option that will cost them money unless the price of a bbl of oil is below $3.50

I think. I don't know if this is significant, but it dosn't fit with the landscape that I have been seeing. I'm new at this, so maybe goofy stuff like this shows up all the time, but it looks like stripes in the jungle to me. Should I run? Where?


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:59
Gollum (From the ashes of despair the huge golden form rises...) ID#43352:
The Phoenix lives!!!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:48
kapex (Tom: We know why! Many of the why's have been posted here numerous times!) ID#218252:
The public at large does not know why! The powers that be with the media in their pocket, will see to it that they don't find out anytime soon either! They want joe sixpack's confidence in the Buck, not gold or silver. They have to make it appear that there is no alternative to the dollar!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:46
EJ (Rate cut let-down) ID#45173:
But the tone was uneasy, with many traders and brokers saying the cut had acknowleged fears of a slowdown in economic growth, raising concern about the corporate profit outlook.

``The problem is that now we are being told to expect a slowdown in euro zone growth in 1999, which is making investors cautious,'' said one broker.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/981203/bit.html
---
The first rate cuts made the markets rise. The CBs will save us! Then the implications of continued cuts set in.
-EJ

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:35
TYoung (Gollum...no third wall....and AG....) ID#317193:
Can not save the system with ANOTHER rate cut or two if the first three did not work. The Euro contries are joining in...Why? Yes, folk it really is that bad...they know it and know why...we do not. Suppose we will find out later.

Tom

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:32
kiwi (Habitual dumping patterns) ID#194311:
Looking back over the week one can't help but notice the well choreographed gold dump from 1:30- 2:30 on Wall Street.
Those fed boys have gotta stop pulling down their shorts after lunch before they get their asses gored on the horns of angry gold bull.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:27
SWP1 (@LGB Re: Munismatic aftermarket) ID#233199:
How do you think the MOunties will do?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:24
JTF (Dollar, Gold, Euro) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Tyro: If the EURO succeeds in a big way, the US dollar will no longer dominate the worlds markets -- and the dollar must go down relative to the EURO. Part of the reason for this is there are substantial reserves in US dollars. Just imagine if these are replaced by EUROs or some other currency instead. Competition.

If the EURO tanks, there will be a 'flight to safety' to the US dollar, and gold. So -- dollar and gold go up together. This is part of what happened to gold/dollar in 1993 when we had the European financial crisis, and England had to bail out of the European Union. The other part of gold going up in 93 was due to the fact that AG had no choice to expand the money supply to pull us out of a recession.

I forgot to emphasize that last part. AG is forced to expand the money supply now too -- and lower rates. Unfortunately the inflationary aspects of this action are not as clear as they were in 1993. Now, if AG does not expand the money supply fast enough, deflation will nail us instead.

So -- after all that, all you can do is watch trends carefully, and trade accordingly. No hard and fast rules -- the chop is too big out there.


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:23
Gollum (There is no third wall) ID#43349:
One way or the other.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:17
Speed (Traders Comments from CRB Index) ID#29048:
http://www.crbindex.com/reviews/story2333.html


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:15
EJ (Tyro ) ID#45173:
Copyright © 1998 EJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Actually, we've debated this inflation/deflation/stagflation question into the ground. There is no simple answer. There are several schools of thought here. The two main schools are: 1 ) we get a contacting economy with the dollar losing buying power, 2 ) we get a contracting economy with the dollar gaining buying power. Then there's the possibility that we first get one and then the other, depending on the sequence and impact of the events:

1 ) Asia improves, flight capital pulls out of the US stock market, precipitating a crash
2 ) Euro competition as a reserve currency causes dollars to head back to the US as foreign nations and corporations diversify reserves
3 ) Reflation fails: pushing on a string. Deflationary forces ( over-capacity and over-indebtedness ) continue to their conculsion: bankruptcy, high unemployment, default
4 ) Reflation works, economy begins to grow again, although the dollar is now less in devalued
5 ) Y2K slows the reflated economy, swinging the economy back into a deflationary cycle

And a nearly infinite number of other factors influence the outcome: a suprise war between China and Taiwan, a sudden jump in oil prices, a stock market crash, etc.

So, the answer is: there's no answer.

But this much is certain: there is no certainty.

Paper markets hate uncertainty.

Gold and silver are the best hedge against uncertaintly.
-EJ

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:14
TYoung (Deflation....) ID#317193:
Suggest a read... http://www.the-privateer.com/gold6.html

Tom

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:13
Gollum (Did anyone check the schedule for the next surprise rate cuts?) ID#43349:

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:12
Gollum (Into the second wall) ID#43349:
One moment the sun is shining with blue sky and white puffy clouds behind us and a solid black wall of nothingness ahead.

The next moment we are into it. Stinging horizontally driven raindrops. Crashes and booming sounds all around.

Nothing can be seen.

The world has turned upside down.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:06
Bill El Zebub (Is Greenspan selling gold into the declining stock market ,thereby defending) ID#261352:
US bonds as the last safe haven? How long can he keep it up? I wonder if
the Japanese and Europe are buying in anticipation of feces striking the
rotating blade?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:05
TYoung (Tyro...ya got to define what you mean by deflation....) ID#317193:
Are you talking about money supply contraction? Falling prices? These are different. Fiat currencies cause this problem. Under a gold standard you can never have money supply contraction by debt default...this only occurs with the funny money.

Define and then dicuss...please.

Tom

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:03
Tyro (interesting reading) ID#36977:
http://www.Disinfo.com/

Check out counterculture, for one.

BBL

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 18:01
Envy (Definition) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
PROFIT TAKING: Act of panic selling before anyone else so as to collect the most amount of DRY POWDER for the next round of INVESTING during the DIP in the EQUITY markets.

DRY POWDER: Cash that could have been converted into GOLD.

INVESTING: BURNing of DRY POWDER

BURN: To commit resources to an endeavour you do not control, understand, or follow to any great extent. The decision to BURN is most often made after a report from a TALKING HEAD, or when the EQUITY markets are experiencing a DIP.

TALKING HEAD: Person paid to read propoganda generated by the market interests from the tele-prompter into the camera for consumer consumption with the goal of convincing the consumer to commit DRY POWDER to the EQUITY markets.

DIP: The time between PROFIT TAKING and INVESTING. With the suffix -ster or -sh*t, becomes GOLDBUG slang for an investor in the EQUITY markets.

EQUITY: See STOCK.

STOCK: See TULIP.

TULIP: See EQUITY.

GOLD: That which simply is.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:59
arby () ID#72316:
OOOPs

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:58
arby (@ James) ID#72316:
.. If your stop order is entered the computer trades it automatically...
Now , if you have say 1000 shares to buy at 35.00, and I enter an order to buy 10,000 at 35.10, when the last sale is lower then 35, I will be ahead of you and quite conceivably you will not get a fill, since I believe that the computer automatically puts an upper limit on what your order can be filled at...There was only one way that 100's of thousands of shares could have traded at your limit without a fill, and that was by crosses..or incorrect order entry by your broker...

rb

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:57
arby (@ James) ID#72316:
.. If your stop order is entered the computer trades it automatically...
Now , if you have say 1000 shares to buy at 35.00, and I enter an order to buy 10,000 at 35.10, when the last sale is lower then 35, I will be ahead of you and quite conceivably you will not get a fill, since I believe that the computer automatically puts an upper limit on what your order can be filled at...There was only one way that 100's of thousands of shares could have traded at your limit without a fill, and that was by crosses..

rb

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:57
Tyro (Thanks, JTF & Envy) ID#36977:
Copyright © 1998 Tyro/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
for some serious discussion. JTF, you lost me. I think what you said if the Euro succeeds, gold goes up, but if the Euro fails, gold goes up. Reminds me of the truism, If it sounds too good to be true . . . Please 'xplain again.

I KNOW that no one knows. This question was asked to generate some ON TOPIC discussion. Lets have some more, please, everyone? I've been thinking about this issue for over a year, as have lots of others here. We've discussed it indirectly, but never head-on.

Factors to consider: Euro/Yen ... trading blocks ... US Debt...interest rates...dollar strength...Y2K...zillions more.

How about making this the poll of the day?
ASSUME: We are in a worldwide deflationary cycle.
QUESTION: Does the dollar increase or decrease in value?


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:56
BigFisherman (Asian IMF?) ID#258273:
http://satellite.nikkei.co.jp/enews/SPECIAL/market/index.html

Another step toward an Asian currency block backed by gold ( My Japanese friends anticipate silver backing as well. )

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:54
SteveIS (Money supply) ID#280339:
AG's printing press was running full steam ahead last week. M3 grew $23 billion. That is over 20% per year annualized.

Buy Gold!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:52
EJ (Why didn't the DOW recover above 9000 as it has the past few days?) ID#45173:
Copyright © 1998 EJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
J&J plans net reduction 4,100 jobs, take $800M charge

NEW BRUNSWICK, N.J., Dec. 3 ( Reuters ) - Healthcare giant Johnson & Johnson ( NYSE:JNJ - news ) announced on Thursday a net reduction of 4,100 jobs, or about 4 percent of its worldwide workforce, for a total annual savings of $250 million to $300 million.

The New Brunswick, N.J.-based company that makes Band-Aids and Tynelol expects to close down 36 manufacturing facilities around the world and take a one-time $800 million after-tax charge in the fourth quarter
related to the revamping.
---
Remember when news like this made the market rally? Downsizing! Higher profits! Yah!

Now, Layoffs! Falling earnings! Ugh!

-EJ


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:45
BigFisherman (Eldorado) ID#258273:
Of course your right. Its just nice to see the mouse give the hawk the bird once in a while.

By the time pensions ( the dollar ) is decimated in the US we will all be flying the bird.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:29
EJ (Envy) ID#45173:
Profit-taking is a euphemism for selling. Selling is a euphemism for panic selling.

This gives me an idea. We need a Devil's Dictionary for the current day market.
-EJ

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:18
Gusto Oro (LGB...) ID#430260:
As long as you're here, I noticed SSC held its 5/8 to 11/16 despite the big drop in silver. I rather take this as a bullish sign. Any fresh thoughts on where we might be going from here next few months. I figured we'd end the year at $8 silver. But stocks at the COMEX stalled, then actually rose the latter part of the year. Still think the drain on COMEX stockpiles will drain considerably next year. --Alan

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:17
JTF (Dollar up or down? Ie, whither gold?) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Tyro: You ask the question no one knows. Wealth flows to the strongest currency of the moment, and it is still paper, not gold. But -- gold is rising in strength relative to the commodities indices.

I think the best way of looking at this is that gold will go up if the US dollar tanks. Competitive devaulations through serial dropping interest rates will boost gold as well, unless deflation dominates the process. The EURO launch is likely to boost gold, either from US dollar sales and a successful launch, or with a flight to safety to the US dollar and gold if the EURO fails.

So -- for now all you can do is watch the US dollar, interest rates, commodity prices, etc -- and hope your timing is good.

After the last major market crash, or a clear return to an inflationary environment, then investment in gold/gold stocks will be a sure thing. Right now the Tsunami gold bug surfer has to be alert and nimble.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:16
Envy (@Tyro) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Well now that's the 24,000 dollar question isn't it. Will we keep a high dollar and leverage that to power the domestic economy with cheap imports, or will we tank the dollar and force up the price of imports to increase our exports. Decisions decisions. Any way you look at it, we're talking about a slowing economy, we can pay, or we can pay. If the deflation trend speeds up, then we get crushed by way of our exporters ( farming, steel, oil, etc ) . If we inflate we pay by shipping our wealth out the door to our major markets. Or maybe they can just keep it in the middle and have falling commodities ( but not tanking commodities ) and higher inflation, but not hyper-inflation. Or maybe our export markets will just get their act together and start buying stuff again. Who can say, I guess it'll all come out on the tape.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:16
wondering (LGB, Missing link, Big fisherman re:Brown/Huang/Loral) ID#185202:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/smith/980922.comcs.html

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:12
TYoung (Gollum...thanks again.....) ID#317193:
Come on now...are you backing us up just a bit or got a slight rise to get over? Your doing a great job...slip the yellow lady back to $285 or $280 just for a little bit if you please. Spring time is not that far away. Can't wait for the rush to real assets that global deflation ( as in paper currency defaults ) is going to bring to the world. On top of that, Y2k will cause panic even if it turns out to be a non-event....FEAR...coming to a town near you ...soon.

PS...I said that back last spring...was a touch early...as is my nature.

Tom

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:05
LGB (@ Missing Link...Nuclear Missile Secrets) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Please explain the following to me;

1 ) How is it possible to give away nuclear missile secrets when in fact you are not in posession of such secrets, and have no acces to even a REMOTE connection to same? As I've said many times, we don't and NEVER HAVE built launch vehicles, rockets, ICBM's, missiles, or even Fourth of July Roman Candles. That technology is completely foreign to what we do.

We have NO knowledge or expertise, nor do we build, nor do we have access to rocket guidance system technology. I'm familiar with and work on EVERY program at Loral, because my function is not program specific, it's supplier specific. What I'm saying is not a matter of opinion, it's fact.

2 ) How does a Guidance paprer defining our methodology for performing a failure analysis, equate to giving away nuclear missile secrets we have no access to? A Guidance paprer that was by the way, required by our launch insurance carrier.

If your answer is that ANY assistance to the CHinese that could somehow indirectly benefit their military program = Giving away nuclear missile secrest you better be pprepared to indict AT&T, Boeing, Sun Microsystems, and just about every other company doing business globally, as well as all the European companies who do same.

3 ) How is it that Loral is supposedly benefiting from Chinese money when in fact we pay them for a service, not the other way around?

4 ) Are you aware that ALL large satellite manufacturers use launch facilities and work with the CHinese and/or Russians and/or Indochinese in order to put payloads in space?

5 ) Whay do Bernard Swartz's political contributions have to do with nuclear missile secrets? If your answer is that said contributions were the reason for the export launch waivers allowing Hughes and Loral to launch from China, please explain how it is that Pres. Bush signed 13 such routine waivers during his administration? Is he a commie giving away those nuclear missile secrets also? Bernard after all, did contribute to his campaign also.

Incidentally, Mr. Schwartz has been a large campaign contributor to Democratic party candidates and causes for decades. While I vehemently disagree with his politics, I certainly support his right as a citizen AND as a corporate power broker, to exercise his right to do so. The issue of nuclear missile secrest is entirely unconnected.

I detest Clinton, but the knee jerk reporting on this one, is grossly inaccurate....as the congressional hearings being held on the matter will prove ( and for the most part already HAVE proven )

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:04
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#213265:
Big Fisherman -- Doesn't matter. Brazilians ain't seen nothin' yet for currency devaluation. Their pensions will be intact but worth much much less. Same as if they took 90% or more away a gave it all away. Same type of scenarios will be playing loudly here too in due course.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:02
Spud Master (For LGB: A used claw hammer to remove The Missing Link's nail...) ID#273112:
through your worthless hide. Of course, it depends on what you mean by just had your *ss nailed to the wall doesn't it? ( monstrous grin thing )

Spud ; )

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 17:02
BigFisherman (Envy) ID#258273:
Yea, and the World Bank had an even more pessimistic assesment today. We havn't bottomed yet.

Isn't it amazing, just a year ago those of us who used the D word were considered emotionally disturbed.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:58
Envy (Stocks End Lower; Dow Off 184.86) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
NEW YORK ( AP ) -- The Dow industrials plunged back below 9,000 today, nearly posting its second 200-point loss of the week, as a fourth straight day of profit-taking finally seeped into the technology sector. Extending a rapid retreat from the new high set just last week, the Dow Jones industrial average fell 184.86 points to 8,879.68, about 500 points below the record of 9,374.27 set Nov. 23. Broader stock indicators also posted hefty losses amid some unsettling developments overseas, including a setback in Brazilian efforts at reform and a coordinated interest rate cut in Europe that may signal more weakness in a key market for U.S. products.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpws1u.htm
--
I'm glad they were taking profits and not selling.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:56
JTF (Hudson) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
NEOTAWAWKI: Perhaps there is some oil on the rails. Those big drivers have a real tendency to slip on starting up. Very little traction, unlike the uninteresting diesels. The big steamers would back up to remove the slack between each of the cars before starting up again. A little sand from the sand box also helps if the rails are slick. By the way, the old Pennsy K-4's used to roundhouse ( in the open ) behind my uncle's house. Ever seen the UP Big Boys close up?

What really worries me is that we may be on the brink of another worldwide financial crisis, and panicked investors are very likely to throw out the good bathwater with the bad. I hope to jump back in at the bottom -- hoping for another v-bottom. But it is like catching a falling knife, isn't it.

Right now I am having doubts keeping my 10% gold stocks, 10% defense stocks position. Rest cash.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:54
BigFisherman (Brazil votes no) ID#258273:
Seems that the Brazilian vote not to surrender their pension funds to the new world order got a few people nervous. He he he

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:54
Tyro (@NTEOTWAWKI) ID#36977:
It's amazing. I got bored and did some surfing. Found a site that had six or seven links to Drudge Report parodies. Must be Matt is really hitting the nail, so to speak.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:51
Envy (Mortgage Rates Fall to 8-Week Low) ID#219363:
WASHINGTON ( AP ) -- The average interest rate on 30-year fixed-rate mortgages fell to an eight-week low of 6.71 percent this week, Freddie Mac, the mortgage company, reported Wednesday.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpfn1q.htm

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:50
Tyro (Back to Business) ID#36977:
OK, lets assume that we are entering a worldwide deflationary period.
Does the US dollar gain in purchasing power ( ala 1930's ) ,
or does it lose purchasing power ( domestic inflation, ala Russia ) since the currency is no longer backed by gold as in the '30's?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:47
TheMissingLink (LGB) ID#373403:
Copyright © 1998 TheMissingLink/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Once again you defend your company against giving nuclear weapons secrets. There is little difference between the Long March nuclear ICBM's and the rockets used to launch your Loral sattelites. Bernard Scwartz was the largest single democratic donor in 1996. Loral has admitted that it incorrectly wrote a guidance paper to help the rocket technology of China after the explosion. Now the Chinese have the technology to hit Chicago instead of just the Midwest thanks to your company's mistake. The investigation into Loral was cut off after Clinton retroactively o.k.'d the technology transfer over the Justice Departments objections. Hmmmmmm.

This would have never happened had Clinton not transferred oversight of technology to the the Commerce Department from the State Department over the objections of the DoD and State Departments. Bernard Scwartz was the largest single democratic donor in 1996.

Bernard Scwartz was the largest single democratic donor in 1996.
Bernard Scwartz was the largest single democratic donor in 1996.
Bernard Scwartz was the largest single democratic donor in 1996.

Bernard Schwartz is the CEO of Loral.

So what are you defending?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:47
Envy (Economist Nervous About Recession) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
NEW YORK ( AP ) -- The global economic crisis is reaching a peak, but more than half the world's economies will be in recession next year, leading to increased political instability in those countries, a leading economist said Thursday. Marvin Zonis, a professor of business administration at the Graduate Business School at the University of Chicago, issued a forecast for the world economy for 1999. A year ago, Zonis labeled his forecast Nervous in '98. Now, it's Nervous Again in '99. The most positive development is that the global decline has come to a halt. With a few notable exceptions, the global economy has hit bottom, Zonis said of the financial crisis that began in July 1997. He spoke at a business school luncheon in New York. An estimated 40 percent of the world currently is in recession, with some places in depression, and economists have lowered growth expectations for next year. Japan, Brazil and China are not likely to suffer further decline or political instability, Zonis said, but Japan's problems will lead to political instability in the region and less chance for its neighbors' economic recovery.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpfn1o.htm
--
Yep, he said depression.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:46
NTEOTWAWKI (@Tyro - Ah yes, the Drudge Retort) ID#389387:
Maybe these guys can get a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts for their completely sophmoric, unoriginal, leftist response to a great site.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:44
Envy (Thursday World Gold Prices) ID#219363:
http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpfn1n.htm

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:43
Skeptic (Where do we go from here?) ID#288100:
Copyright © 1998 Skeptic/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I walk through the department store and the supply of goods is so great I have trouble walking through the small appliance area. ( they are spread across the aisle so that I can just get through ) So supply side economics seems to have worked, lots of supply, however few buyers perhaps. Meanwhile my government is about to give tax breaks to hockey teams. As I have no interest in hockey or sports of any kind, I wonder if it is unpatriotic to not love hockey and sports. I live in strange times, where what I consider insubstantial, i.e. hockey, is more important than health care. Does hockey generate wealth or just move around existing wealth? Meanwhile my government has sold off substantial wealth, our gold reserves. However wasn't it Caeser who also thought the games were important. Without the NHL to distract the masses perhaps their thoughts about the condition of their gold reserves would pop up and be to much for my government to bare.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:43
JTF (Comments about Brazil crisis, and the World financial system) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
All: I think the Brazilian left probably doesn't care about their stock markets. My guess is that they are not the ones heavily invested in Brazilian assets, so they have little to lose, IMHO. So -- compromise will not come easily, if at all.

Also, someday the Brazilian people will eventually rise up and say 'enough', and refuse to subsidize the debts created by their political and business types. This may be the time.

That also applies to Mexico where there were congressional fistfights regarding who should pay for the $60 billion in USD that they still owe from the 1994 financial crisis. I have heard nothing about the IMF bailing out Mexico again.

I think there is a real possibility that we are entering another deflationary crisis similar to the Oct 97 one. This could be much more serious than the last one -- for the US and Europe.

The sudden nearly unanimous dropping of European interest rates today probably says more about the seriousness of what is happening than anything else. This does not look like what one usually does if you are to launch a strong currency. Good for gold if the markets don't collapse outright.

I wonder -- what will the European people buy if there is a financial crisis? German marks? No -- the mark will be pulled down by association with the weaker currencies. The US dollar -- perhaps not, this time, as that would weaken the Euro some more. Gold?


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:39
BigFisherman (Loral) ID#258273:
Loral is under investgation by Congress. Payments to Clintler... Illegal technology transfers... Coincides with Chinesse payments to Clintler... Laid out clearly on 20/20 last nite I believe. We shall see what you have proven here.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:38
Envy (CRB, XAU) ID#219363:
CRB: Down -0.56 ( -0.29 percent ) , 52-week Range 195.18 - 238.39, day's Low 195.22, closed 195.40. Somebody forgot to tell the XAU that the gold bull had started, down about 4.5 percent. CRB still flirting near it's new lows set on Monday.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:35
NTEOTWAWKI (@Gollum) ID#389387:
As Gollum applied steam to his J3A Hudson streamlined beauty he noticed that the outside flange goes backwards for a bit, even as the massive 72 drivers roll forward. Is this why POG dropped today?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:30
James (The dipsters got a reality check today.) ID#252150:
My Sat. prediction of a 200+ Dow down day on Mon. & 600 down for the week is already 1/2 right & has a very good chance of being 100% right tomorrow.
Got hurt this week with my AMAT short because of the fairy tales coming out of the tech conference in Arizona, but made up for a large part of it by increasing my position by 50% at 3:20 as it finished over 2 down from there.

If anyone has the cajones & is thinking of a good short AMAT could go into a freefall from here. If it breaks below 39, there is nothing there but thin air.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:28
LGB (@ Tyro....Platinum Proof Sets) ID#269409:
Re your 16:14. Don't believe everything you read on obsolete web site pages. The Platinum 98 Eagle Proof Sets have been sold out for quite some time.

If you'd like to verify this for yourself, call the U.S. mint customer service line at 1-800-872-6468

The sets are currently selling for a premium in the Munismatic aftermarket. A market which I follow closely.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:22
Envy (European Central Banks Cut Rates) ID#219363:
FRANKFURT, Germany ( AP ) -- In a surprise move, nations adopting the new European currency called the euro dropped key interest rates today. The cuts effectively set the rate that will be adopted throughout the euro zone on Jan. 1. Ten of the 11 countries adopting the euro dropped their key lending rate to 3 percent. Italy dropped to 3.5 percent from 4 percent.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpfn0r.htm

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:21
Gollum (Of course gold DID close 20 cents lower...) ID#43352:

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:20
Gollum (Panic among the funds) ID#43352:
Gee, Newmont closed at 18 1/8 which made it cheaper than Barrick Gold which closed at 18 9/16 while Homestake and others hardly dropped at all.

Perhaps Newmont is a tad oversold?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:19
LGB (@ Big Fisherman) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
You sir, need serious medication and therapy. Dr. Kervorkian has the cure for what ails ya! At least my comments are directed at a topic that was prevelant in posts here at Kitco for 2 days. Your comment is nothing but an ignorant diatribe aimed at me.

PS.... Listen fool, we pay the Chinese to launch our satellites, not the other wau around. So do all the other major satellite manufactueres. As I've proven here only a billion or so times here, Loral has neither the technology, the expertise, or the desire to provide the CHinese with Nuclear missle secrets nor could we do so even if we choose, considering we've never even been in that business.

PSS...Though what I do with my time is certainly none of your business, the fact that I post at times from my work site is not a cause for concern to my employer. I'm in a salaried position, and often put in 12 to 16 hour days, particularly when I frequently travel on business.

Thankfully, my employer is well aware of this, and does not employ mindless, useless, 8-5, clone like, unimaginitive, sheep.... nor would I work for them if they did. They're quite happy with my work judging from my reviews and compensation increases. Sooooo...stuff it and stuff your attitude. If my posts offend you, please accept my invitation to NEVER read another one them! Thank you.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:18
Envy (Confederate Flag Sparks Truck Duel) ID#219363:
http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpne06.htm
--
Meanwhile, back at the ranch ...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:15
BigFisherman (lease rates) ID#258273:
Did anyone notice that lease rates for Gold doubled on that last modest drop? ( $5 on Mon? ) Clearly leased gold was being sold. I haven't noticed such a tight correlation before. Has anyone here been watching this relationship. If it becomes more pronounced, then I would suspect that the major remaining downward pressure is sales of leased gold.

Not that that won't push gold down by itself, but it seems less likely that the XAU will follow the DOW or the CRB all the way down. That is, those that lease and sell may have fewer funds from other sources.


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:14
Tyro (This-n'-That) ID#36977:
Copyright © 1998 Tyro/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
@LGB I thought you posted that the US Mint 98 Proof Platinum Sets were all gone? Not according to: ( cut/paste )
http://www.usmint.gov/catalog/catalogb.cfm?Urlcategory=
American%20Eagles&Urlsubcategory=Platinum

@EJ, NTEOTWAWKI Here's something golden to ponder:
NEW STUDY INDICATES INCREASE IN SUCKER BIRTH RATE!
http://www.drudge.com/
well, at least the page background is golden.

@RJ Went to my local coin shop yesterday, the proprietor begged me to buy his 40% silver Kennedy halves @65 cents. It was nice to see your post from yesterday.

@all Appears to me that SILVER has had a turnaround day ( open, lower, close higher than open. Anyone? What happened ? Any news?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:13
Envy (Thurday Gold Coin Prices) ID#219363:
http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpfn1b.htm
--
EJ: If they like it when the market drops, they must be breaking out the champagne right about now *grin*. One out of every eleven dollars in the Brailian market left it today for greener pastures. such is life in the big city.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:13
Year2000 ($10,000 for a Trip to the Moon?) ID#222107:
It's difficult to believe that someone would actually pay $10,000 for a trip to Mars. That's outrageous! With my connections, I could arrange a trip with a discount carrier for only $5,000.

As a bonus, I could give 100 free shares in my Internet start-up company: Year2000 Enterprises.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:10
EJ (Envy) ID#45173:
The Brazilian left LIKES it when the stock market tanks. It shows that they are effectively supporting the masses of voters who are not in the stock market and hurting the tiny elite that benefits directly from stock market investments. I wonder if the government was in there buying today.
-EJ

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:06
tolerant1 (Pete, Cyclist, Namaste' gulps and puffs all around...Pete, shall print and read...thanks) ID#20359:
Cyclist, an interesting read I have been looking into the Bible Code for quite some time...have the book..most interesting...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:05
Envy (Brazil) ID#219363:
Some political folks must feel like morons today. They defeat an austerity plan yesterday and there is cheering on the floor, then today the market tells them in a not so subtle way that it thinks they moved left when they should have moved right. Forget popularity based opinion polls, the market tells you immediately when you've dorked it all up.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:02
EJ (Just how stupid are Internet investors? ) ID#45173:
Copyright © 1998 EJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Not only do they know nothing about the companies they're investing in, they'll put their money down on a stock without even making sure they got the right ticker symbol. Duh!
-EJ

Temco shares double, then fall, in case of mistaken identity

NEW YORK, Dec 3 ( Reuters ) - Shares of building maintenance and security company Temco Service Industries ( OTC BB:TMCO - news ) momentarily doubled on Thursday only to reverse course in a flash in a move traders said seemed to be a case of mistaken identity.

The sudden spike carried Temco shares as high as $65 from a closing price on Wednesday of $28.75. The move came on the same day that shares of Ticketmaster Online CitySearch ( Nasdaq:TMCS - news ) , a well-known Internet company, debuted on Nasdaq after its initial public offering.

Traders, who asked not to be identified, said they believed people bought Temco shares believing they were Ticketmaster stock. The Nasdaq symbol for Ticketmaster Online, ``TMCS,'' is very close to Temco's Bulletin Board symbol, ``TMCO.''

``We saw some unusual activity. There's a high probability people were buying the wrong stock,'' said one Nasdaq trader.

Temco did not return calls for comment.

Another trader said the sudden move was a particular surprise given the infrequent trading typically seen in Temco shares and the lack of a ready explanation for the sudden interest.

``Everyone in the country wanted to buy the stock at the same time for a couple of hours and there wasn't any news from the company,'' the second trader said.

Ticketmaster shares were trading at levels fluctuating around $50 a share in mid-afternoon, up from an IPO price of $14. Temco shares had returned to a price of $28 a share by late afternoon.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:02
2BR02B? (oops) ID#266105:

http://www.moneyweb.co.za/business/031298/031298-goodwin.htm

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:02
tolerant1 (EJ, Namaste' gulp and a puff to ya...now...now...don't knock sitting in front of an unplugged) ID#20359:
television...America's children would be far more intelligent...yup...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 16:00
2BR02B? (Nick Goodwin interview) ID#266105:

http://www.moneyweb.co.za/busb.htm

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:56
EJ (Hey, now: Dow 8880.97 -183.57 (-2.03%)) ID#45173:
Now only will the DOW close under 9000, but under 8900. If the DOW is going to 10,000 by the end of the year, it's got a funny way of getting there.


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:55
SWP1 (@Goldteck Re: RANYD) ID#286224:
Maybe if you buy 10,000 shares or or so it'll move and I can dump mine.... ( grin thingy )

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:52
EJ (@NTEOTWAWKI, LGB, Good 'ol boy) ID#45173:
Copyright © 1998 EJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
NTEOTWAWKI,
Who paid for those Camel rides on mars? The same suckers who bought that moon landing hoax! Hah!

LGB,
oris made an excellent point about the impossibility of getting light from a vacuum. Electro-lux and Sears vacuums are especially light-resistant.

Good 'ol boy,
You're kidding! What could be more boring than gold and silver? Watching the price of these metals is like sitting in front of an unplugged television. When the metals actually do something, the chatter here will be fast and furious. Meanwhile, we talk about escoterica. Did you have something golden to add?

-EJ

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:50
FOX-MAN (COMEX METAL WAREHOUSE TOTALS) ID#288186:
COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for Dec. 3

-- TOTALS
Gold 831,048 + 0 troy ounces
Silver 78,561,418 + 536,575 troy ounces
Copper 77,323 + 601 short tons

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:48
NTEOTWAWKI (XAU & DOW tumbling) ID#389387:
deflating

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:47
Spud Master (PPT Wake-up call....) ID#273112:
uh... you boys asleep at the helm today?

Spud, tipping back a beaker of 80% H2O2 in LGB's direction ; )

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:46
BigFisherman (LGB, you are a jerk) ID#258273:
nice to see LGB back spewing venom on a salary paid by the red chinese...

just because someone is wrong does not give you the right to berate them...

maybe we should gas them because they are inferior to you...

quite franky I am tired of it... take a pill... you clearly have an emotional problem...

Does Loral approve of what constitutes harassment on company time

Can anyone count to 404



Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:41
NTEOTWAWKI (@EJ) ID#389387:
Copyright © 1998 NTEOTWAWKI/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Thanks for the lift this afternoon. XAU needs it more than I. I have reserved a flight on AirItalia this afternoon for our favorite someone.

Have I Got a Deal for You!

More than 600 people in Italy wanted to ride in a spaceship badly
enough to pay $10,000 a piece for the first tourist flight to Mars.
According to the Italian police, the would-be space travelers were told
to spend their next vacation on Mars, amid the splendors of ruined
temples and painted deserts. Ride a Martian camel from oasis to oasis
and enjoy the incredible Martian sunsets. Explore mysterious canals and
marvel at the views. Trips to the moon also available.
Authorities believe that the con men running this scam made off with
over six million dollars...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:39
Good ol' boy (Boring) ID#26362:
Just scrolled through the comments, boring, boring, boring. Seems no one is still interested in gold and silver. Ho-hum, yawn.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:37
BillD (Goldtec...RANYD....) ID#258427:
That's not too unusual...yesterday only 400 shares traded until about 3:00 pm ET....I would like to see some ( UP ) volume as well...grin

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:34
Goldteck (RANYD (Rangold Exploration)) ID#431200:
So far no trade today on Rangold Exploration,I would appreciate to get the last news on RANYD.Thanks

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:12
LGB (@ RJ.... Physics debate unecessary) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
RJ, you're patient, articulate, and irrefutable arguments in defense of science over fairy tales is a waste of time.

See..when someone has a deeply held Cherished belief about a conspiracy theory or a whacko junk science medical cure... they often become incapable of rational discourse or analytical reasoning.

One might as well argue the meaning of life with a frog.

This is one of the things I find unsettling about Kitco. So often I see those who's realities are entirely made up in gross contradiction of all known body of evidence.

Maybe this is why there is such a propensity to denounce modern civilization and all it's evils such as fiat monetary policy induced
prosperity. These folks LONG for the dark ages.....

The Good old days where myth becomes reality, and truth is equated with sorcery.

She turned me into a Newt! ...A Newt?....... Well..... I got better

( Stolen from the witch trial of Monty Python and the Holy Grail )

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:09
Charleston Gold Bug (XAU Oct 98 Low) ID#344389:
XAU Support OCT 98 Low 67.44
Curently XAU @67.66

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:03
LGB (@ EJ.....Vacuums, Comic relief and Kitco) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Speaking of comic relief, I just read back through the past couple days posts and was astounded to learn that radiated energy in the form of light waves and otherwise, doesn't travel through a vacuum!

Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha, heheheheh, lol...ahaha rofl hahahaha

Next they'll be telling me again how pyramids and magnets can solve all our health problems and represent great advancement over modern western medicine.

Funny place this Kitco..... of course then there's the perfect vacuum problem we need for a genuine test of this physcis defying thesis..the only perfect vacuum I can find is between the ears of a couple Kitcoites who live...welll...quite in a reality of their own making......

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:02
Cyclist (Change) ID#339274:
NEM bought back at 18 15/16

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 15:00
Cyclist (December) ID#339274:
Copyright © 1998 Cyclist/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
December 1998 Bible Code
Monday, 30-Nov-98 07:17:32
12.73.96.43 writes:

I found some chillingly related terms around December 1998 which appears only once in searching from 1-40000 ELS in the Tanakh. This month and year appear at 34847 ELS and the surface text has a related prophetic thread.

12/98 = Eze.11:12; 33:6; Hos.11:6; Zech.2:4; Ps.40:15; 104:18; Prov.14:22

See Matrix at, http://www.angelfire.com/wa/Bibleprophet/images/1298.jpg

The following words are grouped in pairs of two by different colors as follows,

December 1998 = RED

Ablaze, Fire = ORANGE
Launching, Chemical = DARK BLUE
Flying, Soldier = GREEN
Holocast, Captive = AQUA
Judgment, Judah = YELLOW

If current events worsen within the next month in the Middle East then this code may very well give us a glimpse of possible events which could take place.


Dallas James

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:58
LGB (Gold & Platinum demand fall way off in Japan) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
In November, major Japanese bullion house reports sales of less than a third that in October. Not good for Gold & Platinum bulls.

ions due to the dollar's retreat against the yen, traders said.
..........They finished, however, off their intraday lows, with palladium futures eking out small gains, helped by a slight
recovery in the dollar in the afternoon, they said.
..........Gold futures ranged from one to six yen per gram lower. Benchmark October ended off one yen at 1,143 yen after
hitting the day's low of 1,137 yen.
..........The losses were due to the dollar's fall below 122 yen. But prices were underpinned by a moderate recovery in
spot market prices, one brokerage analyst said.
..........Spot gold was quoted at $294.00/$294.50 an ounce at 0654 GMT, against Tuesday's New York close of
$293.50/294.00.
..........In industry news, Japanese bullion house Tanaka Kikinzoku Kogyo said its sales of gold and platinum bars in
November fell to less than one-third of October figures as rebounds in yen-based prices slowed investor buying.
..........Retail prices for gold and platinum recovered in November from October's lows, reflecting a recovery in the dollar
against the yen and spot market prices for both metals.
..........The number of gold bars sold in November through the nationwide retail network of bullion house Tanaka Kikinzoku
Kogyo fell 68.2 percent from the previous month. But on a year-on-year comparison, November sales increased 8.2
percent.
..........Retail sales of platinum bars in November fell 68.5 percent month-on-month but rose 59.0 percent year-on-year.
..........Tanaka declined to reveal actual sales volume.
..........TOCOM silver futures ranged from 0.5 to 1.8 yen per 10 grams lower. Benchmark October ended off 1.3 yen at 188.2
yen.
..........Platinum futures tracked NYMEX's losses overnight to close lower. Traders said prices were also depressed by
persistent concerns about heavy PGM sales by Russia ahead of the expiry of its 1998 PGM export quota.
..........Platinum futures ranged from 17 to 33 yen per gram lower. Benchmark October ended off 16 yen at 1,328 yen.
..........Palladium futures ranged from down 10 yen to up 11 yen per gram. Benchmark October ended up eight yen at 997
yen.
..........Some traders said they saw short-covering after spot prices failed to break support at $270 an ounce. Spot
palladium stood at $270/$275 at 0659 GMT.--Reuters

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:54
EJ (Comic relief ) ID#45173:
Copyright © 1998 EJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
With a Little Help from Our Friends

Police in Oakland, California spent two hours attempting to subdue a
gunman who had barricaded himself inside his home. After firing ten
tear gas canisters, officers discovered that the man was standing beside
them, shouting pleas to come out and give himself up...
--
Some Days, It Just Doesn't Pay to Gnaw Through the Straps

Fire investigators on Maui have determined the cause of a blaze that
destroyed a $127,000 home last month - a short in the homeowner's
newly installed fire prevention alarm system. This is even worse than
last year, said the distraught homeowner, when someone broke in and
stole my new security system...
--
The Getaway

A man walked in to a Topeka, Kansas Kwik Shop, and asked for all the
money in the cash drawer. Apparently, the take was too small, so he tied
up the store clerk and worked the counter himself for three hours until
police showed up and grabbed him.
--
Have I Got a Deal for You!

More than 600 people in Italy wanted to ride in a spaceship badly
enough to pay $10,000 a piece for the first tourist flight to Mars.
According to the Italian police, the would-be space travelers were told
to spend their next vacation on Mars, amid the splendors of ruined
temples and painted deserts. Ride a Martian camel from oasis to oasis
and enjoy the incredible Martian sunsets. Explore mysterious canals and
marvel at the views. Trips to the moon also available.
Authorities believe that the con men running this scam made off with
over six million dollars...
--
Did I Say That?!

Police in Los Angeles had good luck with a robbery suspect who just
couldn't control himself during a lineup. When detectives asked each
man in the lineup to repeat the words, Give me all your money or I'll
shoot, the man shouted, That's not what I said!

Not the Sharpest Knife in the Drawer

In Modesto, CA, Steven Richard King was arrested for trying to hold up
a Bank of America branch without a weapon. King used a thumb and a
finger to simulate a gun, but unfortunately, he failed to keep his hand
in his pocket. Hmmm...wonder what he uses for a knife?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:53
Silverbaron (Pete) ID#288466:
I was in the 'Previous Message for you' dated 11/22. Ho hum.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:52
Walt (HAL) ID#242264:
HAL moving up 29.187
OSX moving up 48.4

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:51
Cyclist (NEM ) ID#339274:
Sold Nem 18 15/16,relatively strong ,good buy at 18 1/2

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:46
Silverbaron (Pete) ID#288466:
FWIW ( probably not much ) I believe they've updated the prediction from Dec 12 to Jan 10, 1999. See the most current posting to the site.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:40
Pete (Toleranta numero uno, a dovetail, or is time running out quickly?) ID#222231:
Copyright © 1998 Pete/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Here is a weird prophesy for you to peruse. Jesus has never given specific dates such as December 12, 1998 so take it for what it's worth. This is just one chapter out of book2 from three books at

http://www.prophecies.org/ for your amusement.

Beware the ides of December. {;- ) )

WAR AGAINST THE WHITE HOUSE

Precious Child, you have been brought to the Mountain, most high, to receive
of Me; for I am Master Jesus, Your Lord and Savior, given this dominion of The
Father.

Child, look at the chair in which you sit, for it is the chair of wisdom,
knowledge, and power; and see ‘miracles’ emerging here and there. Your
practical, intellectual side may throw these miracles to chance; but do not be
allured into such thinking, for you and many others are being brought up very
quickly now, and you shall need these miracles.

I know you are most concerned about a certain, tired person, and you feel that
he wishes to choose death over life. If you see him do this, do not be dismayed,
for many will choose to rush headlong into the enemy and many will be
slaughtered. Some of you will flee and live in safety until you will be pursued
and killed. Remember: Death is the inevitable for all.

The one you are concerned about is hardheaded; I speak to him, but often he
dismisses Me, as he wants more signs. Leave him be and allow his choice to
stay in a war zone; but be prepared to move on.

My Lord, my heart is so weary.

Child, this is known; but now is a time of great discipline in Me. Be not
overcome by what unfolds; be inspired. You are still concerned about the date
of the USA Invasion, so put on your Son-glasses, adjust them to microscopic
vision, look far below to Times Square, and watch the date as it comes by.

My Lord, I see ‘December 12, 1998’; I wish to re-run this. Here it comes again,
‘December 12, 1998.’

Child, do you see what happened before when you read the 17th?

My Lord, I must have followed the horizontal part and the vertical part, but did
not see the lower, horizontal part. Still, I am asking for more confirmation of
this as we go along.

Precious Child, you tire, but let us continue; for, what unfolds is important.

Yes, My Lord.

You have the white robe, the radiant sword and three guardians; I am sending
you to the base of the Mountain.

My Lord, as we arrive at the base of the Mountain, we make a right turn and go
down a desolate street, which is called Pennsylvania Avenue. Buildings which
once stood tall and beautiful and in crumbled ruins. Before us half of the White
House stands, the rest obliterated with debris all over the lawn. Behind the
White House flies a flag with a quarter moon and a star, and a red horse rears
beside the flag. Someone is singing:

‘Ride on, ride on
O’ harvest moon!
O’ harvest moon!
True, you are,
O’ moon, to me.
See, see
What you do for me!’

Then, the tune changes:

‘I Can’t hold you,
So, I Toss you away!
I see your fate,
I cash you in,
I go my way.

I cannot make
Heads or tails
Of what they’ve done.
So, I’ll Give them the guns.’

Then, the tune changes:

‘Guns are forbidden!
They must not be hidden!
Or, I’ll make you a day
Like no other day!

Camps are waiting
For all, who lie,
For all, who steal,
A meal, a meal!

The tune changes again:

I cannot wait
For them to adjudicate!
The trucks come for you
To take you A-W-A-Y!

Again, the tune changes:

I’m a Little Hitler,
Little Hitler, am I!
Empowered by the Germans
Over you, over you!

I’m a Little Hitler,
Little Hitler over you!
Empowered by the Germans
To steal, to kill!

Give me your guns!
Give me your food!
Give me your clothes!
Give me your houses!
Give me your tools!
Give me your cars!
Give me your all!
For, I come to take,
To kill, to steal,
To pillage, to plunder
You-hoo!

Saddam Hussein and Company



My Lord, I hear this singing coming from the area of The White House. Where, is
Bill Clinton?

Child, look at Clinton; he has no legs, arms and teeth -- except the one tooth in
front, which is gold with a white star. His ears are huge and he is blind; he
fumbles for paper, but cannot see how to write. The windows in his office are
shattered and his help is gone. Hillary has practically deserted him, along with
his so-called friends. What more do you see, Child?

I see a country invaded and conquered by Arabs and others foreigners.

War will rip you of every prize you own; it will take your food, clothing and
shelter; it will rape you of every penny and you will fall as a free country. Child,
I have warned mine through revelation to flee. Why would you not heed me? My
curses are upon you as a nation and you are accursed the world over.

My Lord, this is an awful thing to behold. As I look at the White House in
shambles, I wonder what happens to the Congress?

Dissolved.

To the governors?

Dissolved.

We know that the churches are burned and we know that Germany is behind
this destruction.

You know this to be true.

But, the Germans are dealing with a runaway train.

Through and through. We shall stop for today, Child. I pronounce many
blessings upon you and your family; and you shall begin to see them unfolding
quickly.

I thank you, My Lord; we need them so.

I am Jesus. I am Jehovah, yea Most High God of Earth.

As witnessed, dictated and recorded this 29th day of September,
1997,
Linda Newkirk

BOOK 1 ---- BOOK 2 ---- BOOK 3



Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:38
ALBERICH (@hugo: your 13:18) ID#212197:
Copyright © 1998 ALBERICH/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The French say: les extremes se touche. ( I hope I got that right. )
But there is also a lot lost if you assume that fascism is more or less the same than the bolshevist version of communism.

Historically, the concept of proletarian dictaturship was first installed and financed by the top banksters from Wall Street. As an answer to this threat, catholic bourgeois factions in Italy and Germany manufactured what's called fascism, and later enhanced it by race-darwinistic aspects, imported from Great Britain, and the chosen race concept, overtaken from the jewish bible. ( Don't forget: Goebbels was a scholar of Jesuits. ) The basic assumption was, that the superiority of a communist dictatorship could only be counteracted by installing a fascist dictaorship, controlled by the bourgeoisie.

These and much more very interesting aspects of history are lost if you simplify by reducing the 20th century history to the formula Fascism = Communism.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:36
Selby (General) ID#286230:
You answered my question

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:34
EJ (Brazil - Circuit breakers about to go...) ID#45173:
-821 ( -9.72% )


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:34
Gravel (Most folks here agree that if civilization collapses, ) ID#417449:
Copyright © 1998 Gravel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
our paper money will assume its true value, which is almost zero ( not zero, because it will still function as toilet paper ) . Likewise, if civilization collapses, gold will assume its true value, which is almost zero. What? Yep. Gold, like everything else, is only as valuable as what you can use/trade it for. In non-civilization, things like shelter, fire, water, and food have a high value, and pretty yellow metal has a low value. Gold ain't magic! You might consider adding some .22LR ammo to your stash. The price is right, and it will be worth more than gold if civilization disentigrates. This is just my humble opinion. I could be wrong, but so could any of us.



Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:20
BigFisherman (General) ID#258273:
Have you read Unintended Consequences.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:17
Walt (XAU) ID#242264:
Yikes - dropping further - now at 68.24

What's the next support level? Should be around there.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:08
BillD (Gold Mining ) ID#252302:
Copyright © 1998 BillD/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
taken from DBC/CBS Market Watch

At the top of that takeover list is TVX Gold ( TVX ) on the New York

Stock Exchange. At 1 3/4, the stock is not far from a yearly low. The

company's stock market worth is tiny at $300 million. Doody says TVX

produces 500,000 ounces a year at a cash cost of less than $200 an

ounce. It has about 6 million ounces of proven reserves.

TVX also plans to build two mines in Greece, where mining costs are dirt

cheap. Doody estimates the Greek mines will produce 400,000 ounces a

year at a cash cost of less than $100 an ounce.

Alas, TVX needs money to grow, as much as $500 million. Banks have

told the company it needs another $100 million of equity and then they'll

finance the balance, Doody says. I think the whole package is so

attractive, that anyone who would joint-venture ( the Greek mines ) would

buy everything. I expect a bidding war.

Doody's other takeover possibilities include Greenstone Resources

( GRERF ) on Nasdaq, Canyon Resources ( CAU ) on the American Stock

Exchange, Venezuela Goldfields ( VENGF ) on Nasdaq and Crown

Resources ( CRRS ) on Nasdaq.

Thom Calandra is CBS MarketWatch's editor-in-chief.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 14:05
Pete (Mike Sheller) ID#222231:
Not yet Mike. I'm afraid that we're well on the road to a world dictatorship, as crazy as that sounds.

Or, this too shall pass,

Pete

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 13:40
tolerant1 (Here is the right article...sorry bout the bandwidth...replace the word drugs with any word...) ID#20359:
Copyright © 1998 tolerant1/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Tactics of Customs inspectors provokes controversy
Copyright © 1998 Nando Media
Copyright © 1998 The Associated Press

WASHINGTON ( December 2, 1998 5:51 p.m. EST http://www.nandotimes.com ) -- Returning from Jamaica, Gwendolyn Richards was plucked from a line of air travelers by a Customs Service inspector in Chicago and ordered into a bare, windowless room. Over the next five hours, she was strip-searched, handcuffed, X-rayed, and probed internally by a doctor.

The armed Customs officers who led Richards in handcuffs through O'Hare International Airport and drove her to a hospital for examination suspected she might be smuggling drugs. They found nothing.

I was humiliated -- I couldn't believe it was happening, said Richards, who is black and has joined a civil rights lawsuit against Customs. They had no reason to think I had drugs.

Richards, 27, isn't alone.

Officers last year ordered partial or full strip searches or X-rays for 2,447 airline passengers, but found drugs on just 27 percent of them, according to figures compiled by the Customs Service. Sixty percent of those pulled aside for such searches were black or Hispanic.

Customs officials say tough tactics are necessary to catch the growing number of smugglers who swallow cocaine-filled balloons, insert packages of heroin into their body cavities, even hide drugs in a hollow leg or under cover of a fake pregnancy.

We still have a major drug problem in this country, Customs Commissioner Raymond Kelly said Wednesday. We have to do this.

Kelly said race isn't a factor. There are higher risk countries and higher risk flights, he said. Those flights may be more populated by a particular ethnic group.

Last year, the Customs Service seized 858 pounds of cocaine and 803 pounds of heroin attached to or inside international air travelers' bodies, officials said. More than 70 percent of the heroin seized at airports was smuggled that way.

Acknowledging that searches can get pretty traumatic, Kelly said Customs is experimenting with new technology that might reduce the number of body searches. The review comes after several lawsuits and complaints from travelers who say they suffered abusive treatment and hours of confinement. For instance:

----Two Jamaican-born U.S. citizens each filed a $500,000 claim in September over body cavity searches and X-rays in Tampa, Fla. One of the women learned afterward she was pregnant and agonized that her unborn child might have been harmed, according to their attorney, Warren Hope Dawson. The baby was born healthy. Customs policy requires a pregnancy test before a woman is X-rayed, but Dawson said the pregnant woman was not tested.

----A 51-year-old widow returning from an around-the-world trip was held for 22 hours at a San Francisco hospital and given a powerful laxative while inspectors watched her bowel movements. Amanda Buritica of Port Chester, N.Y., won a $451,001 lawsuit last February against Customs.

----A Boston nurse, Bosede Adedeji, won $215,000 in a similar lawsuit in 1991 after she was stopped at Logan International Airport as she returned from visiting her sick son in Nigeria. A judge ruled the officers lacked sufficient suspicion to subject her to an X-ray and pelvic exam.

Customs officials note that fewer than 2 percent of the 68 million fliers who pass through Customs each year have their luggage opened. Far fewer -- 49,000 people -- are personally searched, usually with a pat down.

The 1,772 strip searches last year ranged from people told to remove their socks to passengers like Richards who were ordered to take off their underwear and bend over. Strip searches are performed by officers of the same gender.

The Customs review found 19 passengers who were subjected to pelvic or rectal exams by doctors while inspectors watched. Drugs were found in almost two-thirds of those cases.

Congress and courts have given Customs broad authority to search for drugs, weapons and other illegal imports.

The Supreme Court ruled that Customs officers at airports and border crossings don't need the probable cause or warrants that police need to search possessions. Customs officers can perform a strip search based on reasonable suspicion that someone might be hiding something illegal.

A Customs handbook obtained by The Associated Press advises officers that reasonable suspicion usually requires a combination of factors, including someone who: appears nervous, wears baggy clothing, gives vague or contradictory answers about travel plans, acts unusually polite or argumentative, wears sunglasses or acts sick. Race isn't cited.

Customs officers can detain people for hours, even days, without allowing them a telephone call to a lawyer or relative or charging them with a crime. Inspectors say they keep detainees from making calls so that drug associates aren't tipped off. Generally, if someone is detained for eight hours or more, a federal prosecutor is notified.

Richards is among more than 80 black females who filed a class-action lawsuit claiming they were singled out for strip searches at O'Hare because of race and gender.

The plaintiffs include a 15-year-old girl, a mentally retarded woman, and a wheelchair-bound woman. Many decided to sue after seeing news reports on Chicago's WMAQ-TV about strip searches of black women.

The agency has hired an outside contractor to review how inspectors deal with the public, and is exploring ways to make the system less hostile. In a test at Miami and New York airports, some passengers selected for strip searches are given the option of having an X-ray instead. The service is also studying new imaging technology that shows things hidden under people's clothes.

Customs officers seek passengers' written consent for an X-ray, but it isn't required. Some travelers say they felt coerced.

Las Vegas police officer Rich Cashton said a Customs inspector who stopped him at Los Angeles International Airport last year grew angry when Cashton asked what would happen if he refused an X-ray.

He said, 'If you don't sign this form, I'm going to take you down to the hospital and pump your stomach, Cashton recalled. He was using that threat as intimidation to make me sign a consent form, which is definitely illegal.

Cashton, who identified himself as a police officer, was let go.

By CONNIE CASS, Associated Press


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 13:40
Cyclist (NEM) ID#339274:
bought NEM 18 13/16

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 13:38
Speed (Gold Fields have takeover Candidates...) ID#29048:
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/archive/19981203/news/current/stwatch.htx?source=blq/yhoo&dist=yhoo

TVX, GRERF, VENGF, CAU, CRRS mentioned as takeover candidates.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 13:37
tolerant1 (Oh yeah...this is stopping drugs from entering the country...ah yeah...NOT!) ID#20359:
http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/nation/120398/nation35_5934.html

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 13:22
EJ (Don't know why US investors are worried. The IMF is gonna give Brazil the cash whether) ID#45173:
Copyright © 1998 EJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Brazil fulfills its side of the deal or not. We've already told them we can't let them fail.
-EJ

Wall Street lower at midday, hurt by Brazil news

By Daniel Bases

NEW YORK, Dec 3 ( Reuters ) - U.S. stocks declined Thursday, caught
between the positive news that European central banks had cut interest
rates and the negative news that key pension reform legislation had
suffered a setback in Brazil.

``Brazil is counterbalancing the European rate cuts, and the U.S. markets are really concerned about exposure,
especially hedge fund exposure, to Brazil,'' said Bill Meehan, chief market analyst at Cantor Fitzgerald.

At 1217 EST/1717 GMT the Dow Jones Industrial Average was down 75 points at 8989, breaking through the key
9000 level.

In a setback to Brazil's fiscal adjustment plan and a signal that opposition to government reform could grow, Brazil's
lower house of Congress defeated a key piece of the government's social security reform.

Brazil is considered a lynch pin for the region's financial health and a key market for U.S. corporations and investors.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 13:21
James (Arby@If you say that the specialists can't distinguish stops, then I'll have to ) ID#252150:
Copyright © 1998 James/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
believe that my Broker is ripping me off. I don't think you would disagree that the stops are being run regularly. They may be computerized, but I doubt if that precludes the possibility of some people still taking advantage of retail investors. I know that stops are treated differently & don't go directly into the system.

I just had another bad fill with a PDG stop on Mon. They only filled it partially at 11:30, although 100s of thousands of shares were traded before the close. They then had the gall to charge me a 2nd comission the next day when they completed the fill. Of course I complained & they refunded the 2nd comission. Luckily for them the price of PDG came back up & I got the complete order filled at the price of the partial.

It's well known that the institutions get preference in fills at the expense of the retail investor & most of us are getting fed up with it.
I'm actually thinking of giving up on stocks & just trading the futures.
When we get a severe downturn many 1000s of retail investors will get out & stay out of the TSE. And since many have had bad experiences similar to mine they will never return. The greed of some people on the TSE will kill the golden goose.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 13:18
hugo (skinny) ID#404312:
Copyright © 1998 hugo/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

From Vieth
Part of the problem in recognizing fascism is the assumption that it is conservative...the study of ideology has been obscured by the official Marxist interpretation of fascism...[that says]if Marxism is progressive, fascism is conservative...both communists and fascists opposed the bourgeoisie...attacked the conservatives...favored strong central governments...rejected a free economy and the ideals of individual liberty...kinship as revolutionary socialist ideologies...the leftwing/rightwing metaphor which portrays the two revolutionary ideologies as opposite extremes, is profoundly misleading

but then, most sheep have no idea what a metaphor is

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 13:15
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#213265:
Skinny -- Is that the 'right' jack-boot vs. the 'left' jack-boot?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 13:08
Chicken man (Gollum @ Where's that Barron's book on investing?) ID#341297:
Would you look up a few terms--- let's try...derrivatives...puts....calls...naked options...hedge funds

IMHO the yen pit is going to be a live show tommorrow as to the nature of hedge fund exposure

Anybody for a wild ride on the Orient Express?

Hold on to your feathers...Chicken man..

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 13:07
Boardreader (Skinny: Fascism ................) ID#20767:

Fascism is the promotion of the master-slave relationship by force ( jackboot ) or coercion ( manipulation ) .

Bob in DC

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 13:04
Mike Sheller (Pete) ID#348257:
I have often seen America going to Hell in a handbasket, but I've never seen it get there.

An old sage.

Cheer up man, there's things to buy and sell...always.


No?

Great day all.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 13:00
tolerant1 (Printing a list seems rather silly...you have all the examples in your newspapers...) ID#20359:
I do not seek to argue the point or points...either you see it or you do not...live as you will and lets watch the future unfold further...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:53
sharefin (Problems for the Euro & Y2k) ID#284255:
http://www.itpolicy.gsa.gov/mks/yr2000/y2kcont/sld011.htm

http://www.mindspring.com/~tedderryberry/Y2Ksupplies.htm

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:50
skinny (Fascism) ID#28994:
A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an idealogy of belligerent nationalism.
example: Benito Mussolini from 1922-1943 in Italy

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:47
Cyclist (buy zone) ID#339274:
NEM is coming into range,expecting 18 1/2 at +/-14:00

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:45
Charleston Gold Bug (NEM) ID#344389:
NEM @ 18 7/8

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:44
hugo (contrarian) ID#404312:

shallow tank?


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:40
Auric (Brazil Stock Market--Real Time) ID#257312:

In real time ( almost )
http://quote.yahoo.com/q?s=^BVSP&d=1d

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:40
General (Selby: any more questions?) ID#365216:
Copyright © 1998 General/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved




Texas -- May 12, 1997
UN Invades Texas! A little sampling of toast,
eggs, thick old bacon, and UN Shock
Troopers...

Cedar Falls, Iowa -- Jan 12, 1997
American Bar Turned Into Brothel For UN
Troops! Undercover forces acquire Midwest
nightclub to entertain UN infiltrators.
Consider this report essential information if
you ever plan to go to a bar...

Rewey, Wisconsin -- Sep 8, 1998
Something Screwy in Rewey! Was it the former
East German Olympic Swim Team, or just another
bulldyke picnic outing from Milwaukee...?

Cuba City, Wisconsin -- Nov 13, 1996
United Nations' Forces Practice Night Warfare
In Wisconsin Drinking, snowmobiling, women arm
wrestlers, and UN sharpshooters make for an
exciting Northwoods evening...

Waterloo, Iowa -- July 7, 1998
Mysterious Black Helicopter Spotted at One
Day Sale! Flying mattress man is not immune
to violation by UN forces...

Chicago, Illinois -- July 5, 1998
Wrigley Field Surrounded by UN Forces! French
Foreign Legion troops attack innocent
civilians...

Romoland, Texas -- June 30, 1997
UN Plane Shot Down In Texas! Secret documents
in the aircraft reveal that power has shifted
away from Boutros...

Eldora, Iowa -- October 11, 1996
UN Troops Get Carry Out At Sno Creme Waiting
for the invasion signal from the White House
and getting sick of UN rations...

Chicago, Illinois -- Feb 7, 1997
UN Special Forces' Dinghies Land In Chicago A
pleasant stroll along the lakefront turned
into a nightmare for this Chicago couple...

Appleton, Wisconsin -- April 17, 1997
United Nations' Ground Offensive Delayed! How
one man saved the country by listening to
shortwave radio and buying guns...

Point Comfort, Texas -- January 18, 1998
UN/NWO Attack On Alcoa Plant Foiled! Alert
Texans of the Gulf Coast defend installation
of vital strategic interest...

Romoland, Texas -- May 14, 1997
Global-Fed Dive Bombers Attack Romoland!
Confederate Air Force no match for these
biological/chemical weapon equipped
aircraft...

Neenah, Wisconsin -- April 15, 1997
The UN Strikes In The Dairy State! Covert
installation in Wisconsin serves as base of
operations for UN terror squads. Disguised
black helicopters seen flying in area...

San Antonio, Texas -- August 11, 1997
Press Conference Reveals New, Anti-UN, Hi-Tech
Weapon! Our man in the field interviews
General Hood, leader of the San Antonio
Brigade...

Kilgore, Texas -- Jun 19, 1998
Rooskie-Euro-Commies Invade Kilgore, Texas!
Reports from the field...

Romoland, Texas -- Nov 11, 1997
Romoland Volunteers Plan Plutonium Heist!
Reports from the field...

Milford, Nebraska -- Feb 14, 1997
Buffaloes Trample United Nations Soldier In
Nebraska Stampeding herd of buffaloes breaks
up U.N. training camp...

Vinton, Iowa -- April 29, 1997
UN Commandos Boldy Strike Smalltown Midwest!
Foreign commando unit poses as DNR crew to
destroy bridge and Taco Bell...

Various Locations -- Nov 29, 1997
United Nations Special Forces Teams Place Road
Signs! Will serve as directions for invading
U.N. hordes...




Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:34
Cyclist (HAL) ID#339274:
Bought back at 29 1/16,oil is strengthening

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:28
hugo (tolerant1) ID#404312:
Copyright © 1998 hugo/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Like your post on propaganda techniques.

In Modern Facism Gene Vieth makes the case for fascism being alive and well. Clinton seems to fit the profile as do most liberals.
Definition: fascism is the practical and violent resistance to transcendence.

He makes the case that more than race hatred, it was their hatred of the religion that Jews introduced that made Nazi's want to rid the world of them. A God ouside the world who gave laws binding on human behavior is intolerable to Nazi's, Marxists, Democrats, and Herr Clinton. There is no mystery why lies, slander, and brute force are acceptable to these people.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:27
Selby (General) ID#286230:
I'm thinking of joining the Canadian milita and it only leaves the country in support of the UN. What parts of the US do you think I might get sent to?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:22
EJ (Woops, make that 9.1%) ID#45173:
Brazil'S Bovespa Plunges 9.1 Pct, Nearing Circuit Breaker Cutoff-Traders

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:20
SWP1 (@tolernt1) ID#233199:
Care to post that list?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:20
EJ (Brazil market meltdown) ID#45173:
-8.6% is like the DOW losing 774 pts.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:18
General (tolerant1 post) ID#365216:
Copyright © 1998 General/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
As an example of something that is going on under our noses, ask
the citizens of the city where the FBI is concentrating their search
for Eric Rudolph how they are being treated by the FBI. In their
zeal to capture Rudolph ( who has been blamed now for several other
crimes other than just the baby-killing clinic ) , the FBI has conducted
unconstitutional and warrantless house and car checks, hassled, beaten,
and arrested citizens who stood up for their rights, conducted massive
military style manuevers right in the citizens back yard, etc.

This is very similar to what UN troops have already been training for
in certain portions of the US.

When they come for my guns, they can have them: Bullets first!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:10
tolerant1 (JTF, Namaste' gulp and a puff...make no mistake about it...Clintler wants the downfall) ID#20359:
Copyright © 1998 tolerant1/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
of the USA as we know it...plain and simple...when the time is right/ripe America will suffer greatly as has been planned...the American people will not wake up until they physically see the dead with their own eyes on American soil...it will happen...

Every single item on a list is being followed and there is little or no resistance...things are not as they seem and the lull before the storm is a massive understatement of what will occur over the next 24 months...

If I have said it once I have said it a thousand times here at Kitco...

The BEST way to get away with something is to do it in full view of everyone...right before their very eyes...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:10
General (hugo) ID#365216:
I agree with you about waiting to see Rukyser eat his words; what a
smug SOB who feeds off of conning the masses, a regular financial
Clinton.

Your co-worker might have also been referring to the 30 minute and
1 hour trading halts which were recently passed if the DOW rises or
falls 50/100 points or more. Ask him how this law was working when
the Dow dropped 550 points a year ago.

What a bunch of sheeple ( people acting like sheep ) .

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:08
contrarian (GOLD Tanking) ID#203137:
Finally! Down she goes!!!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 12:03
hugo (reify) ID#404312:
Copyright © 1998 hugo/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

hugo's the middle name-embarrassed me when I was a kid, but I kinda like it now

I'v e got a theory about charts patterns, not just the standard v, pennant, double top, & etc, but peculiar patterns that probably fall within these standard categories which are of more predictive value.
for instance, the weekly silver may be said to be forming a double bottom. The particlar shape of that double bottom--similar to the 85 weekly plat--makes the double bottom a likelihood and allows one to get a jump on those who are waiting for confirmation.

BTW for all you stock market bears, a co-worker with 20K invested in funds told me that the stock market can't crash because they passed a law to prevent it. NOW WHY DIDN'T THEY THINK OF THAT IN JAPAN. Must be good old American ingenuity. After all we have the FDIC. Why not the SMIC ( stock market insurance corporation ) . Just put your money in at guaranteed 30% return and if things go bad, Uncle Bill will feel your pain and make some money to pay you back. Wait, maybe that's what uncle Greenspan is doing now.

Seriously, I think the guy was referring to some law about margins and shortselling. Still, it's enough to make you cry when you see the sheep being led over a cliff.

One of their shepherds is good ol' Louis Rukyser.
Can't wait to see gold wipe that sneer of his pasty face.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:59
JTF (Chinese get secure military phone system) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
All: Why is it that we give the communist chinese a secure military phone system when our own phone systems are not permitted to be secure? How do we know that they cannot use these phones to reverse engineer the system and decode our own 'secure' military phone system? Or -- do they have the secrets already from the Commerce security leaks?

http://www.insightmag.com/articles/story3.html

I doubt that there is any time in history that our military secrets are more easily obtained than now. No training necessary. Just a zerox machine accross the street, and a top secret security clearance approved without FBI review. And -- even better, whoever it is is not arrested for treason.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:57
tolerant1 (America is looking and will look vastly different in the next couple of years...YUP!) ID#20359:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_mcmillan/19981203_xccmc_heil_to_ch.shtml

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:56
EJ (DOW does its daily dip below 9000. Will it recover again?) ID#45173:
Also, notice the divergence. Did this for about two weeks in July before the big drop.

Dow 8981.90 -82.64 ( -0.91% )
Nasdaq 1998.76 +3.55 ( +0.18% )
S&P 500 1165.25 -6.00 ( -0.51% )

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:55
gunrunner (Crystal Ball) ID#354133:
Thanks. And darn... I was hoping my stash of Mounties would eventually be worth a lot higher than melt. No plan to sell for awhile, though...

General/Year2000 - There are some other good gun-related sites/urls out there. BTW, have you gotten your platinum Eagles yet? ( They are UGLY, IMVHO... ) But I still like them. I hope plat goes down a LOT MORE ( say $310 spot ) so I can buy some more of the stuff, in some form or another...

gunrunnr@nwfl.net

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:53
Cyclist (HAL) ID#339274:
Sold my performer,30 due to softness in crude.Gold window is opening up

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:45
rube (stks) ID#333127:
Gold stks still sitting on cliff edge.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:44
EJ (Recession? What recession?) ID#45173:
Copyright © 1998 EJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
U.S. factory slump may spill over-NAPM's Kauffman

NEW YORK, Dec 3 ( Reuters ) - The recent slowdown in the U.S. manufacturing sector could spill over into other areas of the economy, said Ralph Kauffman, director of National Association of Purchasing Management's non-manufacturing survey committee, on Thursday.

``Certainly that's a concern and I think if you look at our business activity index in recent months it has come down some,'' Kauffman said.

``We know a big customer of the non-manufacturing sector is the manufacturing sector, so there is some cause and effect there,'' Kauffman said in a question-and-answer session after NAPM released its November report on business conditions outside the manufacturing sector.

NAPM's November index of non-manufacturing business activity fell to 53.0 from 53.5 in October.

Overall non-manufacturing industries expanded but at a slower rate during November. They continued to add jobs while paying less for materials and services, Kauffman said in the release.

Kauffman told reporters that there was evidence of shortages of qualified workers in certain areas.

``Certain types of labor are in short supply from highly technical areas such as certain computer-programming type people,'' he said. ``There apparently is still a little tightness, at least in certain areas.''

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:41
Cyclist (stellar) ID#339274:
performance of HAL : )

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:41
CEAUX-DUTHEIL Stéphane (Gold (technical analysis)) ID#33024:
http://www.scdut.com/aloute/aad.html scdut@worldnet.fr

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:33
Retearivs (Chins up, Canadians) ID#410196:

http://blacktusk.commerce.ubc.ca/cgi-bin/fxplot

( 90 day average over plotted )


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:23
STUDIO.R (@cOmpgeek........a glimpse into the future'O'red....a space oddity.....) ID#119358:
Damnit! Irving, where did all our EQUITY go?.......

Saul, my dear brother, all I heard was a......SooooooooWoooOOPPPP!!!

But Irving, did you see where it all went...?

Yes, Saul, I got a photograph of this terrible equity eatin' monster!!!! http://www.137.com/museum/hoovcon.jpg



Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:13
ORCA (Sorry for the triple posting) ID#231337:
Needs only to be read once.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:08
ORCA (Pete ... Agree! Here's Canada on the downward spiral...) ID#231337:
Copyright © 1998 ORCA/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
OTTAWA, Canada - The tumble of the Canadian dollar has been casually ascribed by politicians and financial analysts alike to the Asian flu and the associated downward pressure on the prices of the primary commodities that Canada exports. Yet Canada's primary exports account for less than one percent of total forex transactions, i.e. a drop in the ocean, a meagre Cdn$337 million out of a total daily turnover of Cdn$55 billion dollars of which more than 90 percent is speculative in nature.

The public has been blatantly misled. The official justification for the dollar's decline does not stand up; it fails to address the workings of foreign exchange markets. The speculative wave which has swept the World's currency markets is not limited to the former Asian tigers. It has also struck several western countries including Canada.

Bay Street has joined the speculative bandwagon. Canadian financial institutions including the chartered banks are routinely involved in speculating against the Canadian dollar. The amounts of money transacted by these institutions ( using the gamut of speculative instruments ) are
staggering: more than Cdn$55.4 billion ( US$36 billion ) are transacted daily through Canada's foreign exchange market, i.e. 32 times the amounts paid to Canadians in the form of wages and salaries.

Of this multibillion dollar turnover, a meagre Can$2.5 billion ( US$1.6 billion ) constitute bona fide merchandise trade. And 97 percent of forex turnover is conducted in relation to the US dollar indicating the extent to which Canadian banks are part of the US financial landscape.

Some 36 Canadian financial institutions including the chartered banks, trust companies, brokerage houses and foreign exchange dealers, are the main actors in the speculative assaults on the Canadian dollar. Only a fraction of this business is undertaken on behalf of the clients of
Canadian financial institutions.

The loonie has been transformed into the northern peso: the same deadly instruments used to destabilize national currencies in Asia and Latin America, have been routinely used by Canadian and American financial institutions in their assault against the Canadian dollar.

The implications are far-reaching. The speculative attacks against the Canadian dollar have led to the demise of monetary policy. Politicians have failed to acknowledge the existence of currency speculation and its deadly impact. The devaluation is seen as a blessing in disguise: a weaker dollar is said to contribute to job creation. Countervailing measures to avert the
slide were not taken, let alone the imposition of a code of conduct on Canadian financial institutions. Political inertia provided an unequivocal green light to speculators.

The surge of speculative activity against the Canadian dollar has resulted in a dramatic drain of Canada's foreign exchange reserves. In recent months, the Bank of Canada has entered into multibillion dollar contracts in the forex market in a failed attempt to prop up the nation's currency: the vaults of the Bank of Canada have been assaulted by Canadian and American speculators; billions of dollars of Canada's central bank reserves have been transferred into private financial hands.

Wall Street Creditors to the Rescue of the Bank of Canada

Bailouts by global creditors do not solely apply to Mexico, Korea or Indonesia. Heavily indebted as a result of its failed attempts to prop up the loonie, the Bank of Canada was obliged to renegotiate a US $6 billion bailout ( $9.2 billion Canadian dollars ) with a syndicate of Wall Street banks ( including Chase Manhattan, Citibank, Morgan Guarantee Trust, Credit Suisse First Boston ) . Politely labelled in the banking jargon as a standby credit facility, the bailout is intended to restock the Bank of Canada's foreign currency reserves. The Central Bank ( defined in our banking system as the Lender of Last Resort ) is obliged to replenish its reserves on
borrowed money, an absurd situation.

In the present context, the lenders of last resort are the Wall Street creditors of the Bank of Canada. Since 1991, reserve requirements have been lifted, the commercial banking sector ( rather than the Bank of Canada ) fully controls money creation. In other words, privately held money
reserves in the hands of Canadian and US financial institutions far exceed the limited capabilities of the Bank of Canada. Together with Canada's largest chartered banks, Wall Street ultimately calls the shots. The banks --through speculative trade-- have triggered the tumble of the Canadian dollar and the demise of monetary policy.

Ironically, the same institutions which contributed to weakening the Canadian dollar have been called in --under the standby arrangement to help the Bank of Canada prop up the loonie on borrowed forex reserves. The latter constitute a large share of Canada's central bank reserves.
Speculation against the Canadian dollar marks the demise of central banking and the inability of the federal government through the Bank of Canada to control money creation on behalf of society. This signifies that monetary policy is in the hands of the Bank of Canada's Wall street creditors.

The modest budget surplus of Cdn$3.5 billion dollars ( fiscal year 1997-98 ) , announced by the Minister of Finance in October, will barely suffice to service the Bank of Canada's outstanding debt with Wall Street which has resulted from the short-term speculative assault on the Canadian dollar. No doubt, the government is also anxious to use part of the surpluses of the employment insurance scheme to reimburse the Bank of Canada's Wall Street creditors.

Toward a Federal Reserve Bank of Toronto?

What is the future of central banking? With its hard currency reserves depleted, the Bank of Canada may become ( in the not too distant future ) a mere currency board in which the Canadian dollar would be pegged ( e.g. In a two to one split ) to the US dollar. Alternatively, the loonie would be withdrawn altogether; Canadian prices and wages would be converted into US currency. The loonie would be replaced by the greenback and the Bank of Canada would become a mere appendage of the US monetary system: the 13th regional Reserve Bank of the Federal Reserve system of which Canada's chartered banks would become the stockholders.

Dr. Michel Chossudovsky
Department of Economics
University of Ottawa

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:08
ORCA (Pete ... Agree! Here's Canada on the downward spiral...) ID#231337:
Copyright © 1998 ORCA/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
OTTAWA, Canada - The tumble of the Canadian dollar has been casually ascribed by politicians and financial analysts alike to the Asian flu and the associated downward pressure on the prices of the primary commodities that Canada exports. Yet Canada's primary exports account for less than one percent of total forex transactions, i.e. a drop in the ocean, a meagre Cdn$337 million out of a total daily turnover of Cdn$55 billion dollars of which more than 90 percent is speculative in nature.

The public has been blatantly misled. The official justification for the dollar's decline does not stand up; it fails to address the workings of foreign exchange markets. The speculative wave which has swept the World's currency markets is not limited to the former Asian tigers. It has also struck several western countries including Canada.

Bay Street has joined the speculative bandwagon. Canadian financial institutions including the chartered banks are routinely involved in speculating against the Canadian dollar. The amounts of money transacted by these institutions ( using the gamut of speculative instruments ) are

staggering: more than Cdn$55.4 billion ( US$36 billion ) are transacted daily through Canada's foreign exchange market, i.e. 32 times the amounts paid to Canadians in the form of wages and salaries.

Of this multibillion dollar turnover, a meagre Can$2.5 billion ( US$1.6 billion ) constitute bona fide merchandise trade. And 97 percent of forex turnover is conducted in relation to the US dollar indicating the extent to which Canadian banks are part of the US financial landscape.

Some 36 Canadian financial institutions including the chartered banks, trust companies, brokerage houses and foreign exchange dealers, are the main actors in the speculative assaults on the Canadian dollar. Only a fraction of this business is undertaken on behalf of the clients of

Canadian financial institutions.

The loonie has been transformed into the northern peso: the same deadly instruments used to destabilize national currencies in Asia and Latin America, have been routinely used by Canadian and American financial institutions in their assault against the Canadian dollar.

The implications are far-reaching. The speculative attacks against the Canadian dollar have led to the demise of monetary policy. Politicians have failed to acknowledge the existence of currency speculation and its deadly impact. The devaluation is seen as a blessing in disguise: a weaker dollar is said to contribute to job creation. Countervailing measures to avert the

slide were not taken, let alone the imposition of a code of conduct on Canadian financial institutions. Political inertia provided an unequivocal green light to speculators.

The surge of speculative activity against the Canadian dollar has resulted in a dramatic drain of Canada's foreign exchange reserves. In recent months, the Bank of Canada has entered into multibillion dollar contracts in the forex market in a failed attempt to prop up the nation's currency: the vaults of the Bank of Canada have been assaulted by Canadian and American speculators; billions of dollars of Canada's central bank reserves have been transferred into private financial hands.

Wall Street Creditors to the Rescue of the Bank of Canada

Bailouts by global creditors do not solely apply to Mexico, Korea or Indonesia. Heavily indebted as a result of its failed attempts to prop up the loonie, the Bank of Canada was obliged to renegotiate a US $6 billion bailout ( $9.2 billion Canadian dollars ) with a syndicate of Wall Street banks ( including Chase Manhattan, Citibank, Morgan Guarantee Trust, Credit Suisse First Boston ) . Politely labelled in the banking jargon as a standby credit facility, the bailout is intended to restock the Bank of Canada's foreign currency reserves. The Central Bank ( defined in our banking system as the Lender of Last Resort ) is obliged to replenish its reserves on

borrowed money, an absurd situation.

In the present context, the lenders of last resort are the Wall Street creditors of the Bank of Canada. Since 1991, reserve requirements have been lifted, the commercial banking sector ( rather than the Bank of Canada ) fully controls money creation. In other words, privately held money

reserves in the hands of Canadian and US financial institutions far exceed the limited capabilities of the Bank of Canada. Together with Canada's largest chartered banks, Wall Street ultimately calls the shots. The banks --through speculative trade-- have triggered the tumble of the Canadian dollar and the demise of monetary policy.

Ironically, the same institutions which contributed to weakening the Canadian dollar have been called in --under the standby arrangement to help the Bank of Canada prop up the loonie on borrowed forex reserves. The latter constitute a large share of Canada's central bank reserves.

Speculation against the Canadian dollar marks the demise of central banking and the inability of the federal government through the Bank of Canada to control money creation on behalf of society. This signifies that monetary policy is in the hands of the Bank of Canada's Wall street creditors.

The modest budget surplus of Cdn$3.5 billion dollars ( fiscal year 1997-98 ) , announced by the Minister of Finance in October, will barely suffice to service the Bank of Canada's outstanding debt with Wall Street which has resulted from the short-term speculative assault on the Canadian dollar. No doubt, the government is also anxious to use part of the surpluses of the employment insurance scheme to reimburse the Bank of Canada's Wall Street creditors.

Toward a Federal Reserve Bank of Toronto?

What is the future of central banking? With its hard currency reserves depleted, the Bank of Canada may become ( in the not too distant future ) a mere currency board in which the Canadian dollar would be pegged ( e.g. In a two to one split ) to the US dollar. Alternatively, the loonie would be withdrawn altogether; Canadian prices and wages would be converted into US currency. The loonie would be replaced by the greenback and the Bank of Canada would become a mere appendage of the US monetary system: the 13th regional Reserve Bank of the Federal Reserve system of which Canada's chartered banks would become the stockholders.

Dr. Michel Chossudovsky

Department of Economics

University of Ottawa

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:07
ORCA (Pete ... Agree! Here's Canada on the downward spiral...) ID#231337:
Copyright © 1998 ORCA/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
OTTAWA, Canada - The tumble of the Canadian dollar has been casually ascribed by politicians and financial analysts alike to the Asian flu and the associated downward pressure on the prices of the primary commodities that Canada exports. Yet Canada's primary exports account for less than one percent of total forex transactions, i.e. a drop in the ocean, a meagre Cdn$337 million out of a total daily turnover of Cdn$55 billion dollars of which more than 90 percent is speculative in nature.

The public has been blatantly misled. The official justification for the dollar's decline does not stand up; it fails to address the workings of foreign exchange markets. The speculative wave which has swept the World's currency markets is not limited to the former Asian tigers. It has also struck several western countries including Canada.

Bay Street has joined the speculative bandwagon. Canadian financial institutions including the chartered banks are routinely involved in speculating against the Canadian dollar. The amounts of money transacted by these institutions ( using the gamut of speculative instruments ) are

staggering: more than Cdn$55.4 billion ( US$36 billion ) are transacted daily through Canada's foreign exchange market, i.e. 32 times the amounts paid to Canadians in the form of wages and salaries.

Of this multibillion dollar turnover, a meagre Can$2.5 billion ( US$1.6 billion ) constitute bona fide merchandise trade. And 97 percent of forex turnover is conducted in relation to the US dollar indicating the extent to which Canadian banks are part of the US financial landscape.

Some 36 Canadian financial institutions including the chartered banks, trust companies, brokerage houses and foreign exchange dealers, are the main actors in the speculative assaults on the Canadian dollar. Only a fraction of this business is undertaken on behalf of the clients of

Canadian financial institutions.

The loonie has been transformed into the northern peso: the same deadly instruments used to destabilize national currencies in Asia and Latin America, have been routinely used by Canadian and American financial institutions in their assault against the Canadian dollar.

The implications are far-reaching. The speculative attacks against the Canadian dollar have led to the demise of monetary policy. Politicians have failed to acknowledge the existence of currency speculation and its deadly impact. The devaluation is seen as a blessing in disguise: a weaker dollar is said to contribute to job creation. Countervailing measures to avert the

slide were not taken, let alone the imposition of a code of conduct on Canadian financial institutions. Political inertia provided an unequivocal green light to speculators.

The surge of speculative activity against the Canadian dollar has resulted in a dramatic drain of Canada's foreign exchange reserves. In recent months, the Bank of Canada has entered into multibillion dollar contracts in the forex market in a failed attempt to prop up the nation's currency: the vaults of the Bank of Canada have been assaulted by Canadian and American speculators; billions of dollars of Canada's central bank reserves have been transferred into private financial hands.

Wall Street Creditors to the Rescue of the Bank of Canada

Bailouts by global creditors do not solely apply to Mexico, Korea or Indonesia. Heavily indebted as a result of its failed attempts to prop up the loonie, the Bank of Canada was obliged to renegotiate a US $6 billion bailout ( $9.2 billion Canadian dollars ) with a syndicate of Wall Street banks ( including Chase Manhattan, Citibank, Morgan Guarantee Trust, Credit Suisse First Boston ) . Politely labelled in the banking jargon as a standby credit facility, the bailout is intended to restock the Bank of Canada's foreign currency reserves. The Central Bank ( defined in our banking system as the Lender of Last Resort ) is obliged to replenish its reserves on

borrowed money, an absurd situation.

In the present context, the lenders of last resort are the Wall Street creditors of the Bank of Canada. Since 1991, reserve requirements have been lifted, the commercial banking sector ( rather than the Bank of Canada ) fully controls money creation. In other words, privately held money

reserves in the hands of Canadian and US financial institutions far exceed the limited capabilities of the Bank of Canada. Together with Canada's largest chartered banks, Wall Street ultimately calls the shots. The banks --through speculative trade-- have triggered the tumble of the Canadian dollar and the demise of monetary policy.

Ironically, the same institutions which contributed to weakening the Canadian dollar have been called in --under the standby arrangement to help the Bank of Canada prop up the loonie on borrowed forex reserves. The latter constitute a large share of Canada's central bank reserves.

Speculation against the Canadian dollar marks the demise of central banking and the inability of the federal government through the Bank of Canada to control money creation on behalf of society. This signifies that monetary policy is in the hands of the Bank of Canada's Wall street creditors.

The modest budget surplus of Cdn$3.5 billion dollars ( fiscal year 1997-98 ) , announced by the Minister of Finance in October, will barely suffice to service the Bank of Canada's outstanding debt with Wall Street which has resulted from the short-term speculative assault on the Canadian dollar. No doubt, the government is also anxious to use part of the surpluses of the employment insurance scheme to reimburse the Bank of Canada's Wall Street creditors.

Toward a Federal Reserve Bank of Toronto?

What is the future of central banking? With its hard currency reserves depleted, the Bank of Canada may become ( in the not too distant future ) a mere currency board in which the Canadian dollar would be pegged ( e.g. In a two to one split ) to the US dollar. Alternatively, the loonie would be withdrawn altogether; Canadian prices and wages would be converted into US currency. The loonie would be replaced by the greenback and the Bank of Canada would become a mere appendage of the US monetary system: the 13th regional Reserve Bank of the Federal Reserve system of which Canada's chartered banks would become the stockholders.

Dr. Michel Chossudovsky

Department of Economics

University of Ottawa

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:07
Cyclist (cyclical short term ) ID#339274:
gold low 14:00/15:00

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:07
lefty kiwi (silver bottom) ID#32176:
I don't follow silver that closely now ( because it is not GOLD )
however 2 or 3 years ago when I was following it closely I noticed some interesting GANN numbers
a move up from 5.02 to 5.76 and back down to 5.02 was 144 cents in 144
days and 5.02 is 3.5 times 144 and 5.76 is 4 times 144
Also gold then fell to 4.53 as a minor bottom ( pi times 144 0
and then bottomed at 4.32 which is 3 times 144

Maybe 4.53 or 4.32 could be the bottom again

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 11:06
Reify (Hugo, was my dad's name too) ID#413109:
Maybe that's why I like your comments of 10:44.

And we all like it when someone agrees, don't we. I said the
other day that those handling the PMs would drop them for a day
or more, rather than letting people in at the obvious testing
of a chart point that was seen by all. We've just done that to
some degree. XAU may still drop a little further, before turning
but if we aren't there now, we should be soon.
Patience, ha, look who's talking, MR IMPATIENT hisself!
Keep the faith!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:57
TYoung (Gollum...) ID#317193:
Nibbles are turning into small bites...went gold just a little more..please and thank you.

Tom

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:56
ALBERICH (The US$ lost more than 2% during the last couple of days....) ID#212197:
relative to the Euroland currencies and the Yen. At the same time the oil price dropped, commodities in general dropped ( in terms of US$ prices ) , only gold remained somehow at the same US$ price level. That means, also gold became cheaper for Eurolanders and Yen-landers. Gold dropped with the dollar. Actually, it should have gone up at least $6 to $301 or $302.

The fact that it didn't gives us a buying opportunity for gold. It creates, so to say, a Euro-Dollar-Gold carry opportunity: Go from DM or SFR into US$ and from there into gold.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:56
Cyclist (oil) ID#339274:
breakout of hal with great volume,Jan crude has found a bottom
at 11 strong on the chart for a $2 retracement.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:47
EJ (Brazil market down 6.4%) ID#45173:
Equiv to the DOW down 578 points.

Time to shake out the faint of heart.

-EJ

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:44
hugo (charts) ID#404312:

Daily gold-quite a few similar chart patterns out there that have us holding here for a day or two more then heading quickly up to about 304 ( feb )
Check out wk tbills 89-90
Coffee Jul-Dec 88
Gold and plat Mar 87-a very good similarity

If Monday's low is breached none of the above are of use

Weekly silver has an interesting similarity to the weekly Plat of 1985 when it put in a major bottom

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:39
CompGeek (The Price of one trader Trading is a sound) ID#343259:
Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:27

Mike Sheller ( Kitco Koan ) ID#348257:

what is the price

of one man trading?

SoooooWooOOPPP!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:37
Pete (The worlds greatest sting?) ID#222231:
Copyright © 1998 Pete/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The best and worst of the world. The best is that the elite and consumer are finding bargains galore at the expense of the worst of the world. The ability to expand the currency of choice ( $US ) exponentially to dampen commodities such as gold, silver, platinum, oil, steel, copper, aluminum, wheat, livestock, pork bellies, ad naseum is used to short said commodities and at the same time cause imbalances in currency swaps, thereby bankrupting nations. This concerted effort of major world banks, brokers and hedge funds, has given us the worst of the world.

We are experiencing a dichotomy between paper and real assets of gigantic proportions. This serves the continuation of a fraud called paper to enrich the elites while at the same time creating the illusion to the massive consumer society that all is hunky dory ( try telling that to the Asian, S. American, farmer, miner, driller, et al ) . ITMW, producers of real goods are taking a bath which will in time bankrupt them.

What has been the result of this policy of a conspiratorial cabal world wide? ( WHAT ELSE COULD YOU CALL IT? ALL ONE HAS TO DO IS OPEN THEIR EYES ) .

1 ) Many third world nations are now under control by this cabal by the use of the IMF,et al, with no hope of ever of ever regaining their soveriegnty short a revolution.

2 ) The slow but sure control of all commodities by acquisition and assimulation of basic commodity industries world wide by either forced liquidation or merger into giant conglomerates owned by the elites.

Are these major banks, hedge funds, brokers really unwinding their derivitive positions? IMHO, NOOOOO! We have seen their resolve by covering LTCM as an example, giving the majority the impression that to go long is the thing to do NOW, and in the process suck in the suckers ( US ) .

Once their game plan is a fait accompli, watch prices soar; of course to their benefit.

When are we going to wake up to the fact that there is a NWO, owned, contrived and coming to fruition by a non productive segment of society called the elites at the expense of those that are productive? The rest of the sheep are made fat and contented just before the slaughter.

The above thoughts are just those of a rambling old man who believes that the world ( Mankind ) is going to hell in a handbasket because of the INORDINATE GREED of a few evil men. God save us.

The eternal optimist,{;- ) )

Pete

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:36
Gollum (NEM 19 1/2) ID#35571:
moving up strongly

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:34
Straddler (Silver Low) ID#280215:
Got back to my desk to quickly get this in. Will check on responses ( if any ) after lunch. Thanks in advance to anyone!

Normally when the quote lines are in error, it is fixed fairly soon. However, all quote lines show that March silver hit a low of 4585. Is that accurate? Or should this be 4685? Does anyone know if this was actually hit?

Thanks!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:18
sharefin (General) ID#284255:
Lots of info on food and health - colloidal silver
http://www.cairns.net.au/~sharefin/Markets/Alternative.htm


Fiendbear has found his Irving Permanent Plateau
http://www.fiendbear.com/marketre.htm
His commentary at the bottom is good.

Cycle Pro
http://www.geocities.com/~CyclePro/Charts/SP500/Outlook.htm

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:18
AUH20 (WWIII) ID#200235:
Copyright © 1998 AUH20/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Late this afternoon, the EMU fired the lst economic shot that will forever change the economic climate for the remainder of time. It will not be for the better.

Every european nation involved in the new European Monetary Union reduced their discount rates in a unilateral statement that took direct aim at the US Dollar.

The timing was of particular interest because Brazil had just admitted that it cannot nor will not comply with IMF requirements, thus exacerbating the impact of the announcement on the US $.

The overall effect of these actions will require further reductions in the US Fed Discount rate. Can you say Easy Al?

That will require further reductions by the EMU. Which will require further reductions by ...............

The market reacted negatively at first, driving the DOW down by 60 points until the dipsters rushed into the market to take further advantage of the Dow stocks which are only selling at about 30 times earnings.

Future historians will no doubt describe this as the beginning of the end of free commerce and free market activity. The US government has been rumored to have manupilated the domestic US markets for over a year and Alan Greenspan admitted as much on several ocassions in July when he stated that the centeral banks will do what ever it takes to control the price of gold.

It appears that the europeans have used Greenspans success as a model and we will see even more competition between the US and Europe as the launch of the EURO gets closer.

The unknown commodity is the asian countries who are rumored to be establishing their own currency possibly also backed by gold.

With apologies to interesting and crazytimes.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:08
Cyclist (Hal) ID#339274:
Bought 28 1/2 this morning,waiting for NEM 18 1/2

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:06
Cage Rattler () ID#33182:
Copyright © 1998 Cage Rattler/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
My DOW view is based on double top picture and my old friend - common sense. When Internet companies, who own two computers and 1,5 programmers combined, sell their stocks for more than 200 bucks - this is telling me that something is wrong in the universe. The nothing can't have a value of the something. From the other side we have a good example already. Nikkei was at above 40000, then came to below 14000 and this world still exists. We are in the same process for our lovely DOW, and, believe me, at 5600 or so we will be feeling ourself even better than today.

Source: forex trader on another forum

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:06
General (to Y2000 and gunrunner) ID#365216:
Copyright © 1998 General/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I get both Shotgun News and the Cheaper than Dirt periodicals and have
ordered many items from both with great satisfaction. An excellent
gun company and website can be found at www.fjvollmer.com with
sales and info forums on everything from knives, manuals, rifles
and full auto guns and silencers. Well worth a visit.

BTW, Cheaper than Dirt has some of the best prices and selection around
for Meals Ready-to-Eat ( MREs ) ; I think a 12 pack can still be had for
around $50 which is a good price. Main entrees are even cheaper and
contain the heart of the MRE at less than half the price.

To follow-up on a previous post, any more comments or recommendations
on stockpiling and using colloidal silver as a health agent.
Thanks in advance.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:03
Walt (OSX ) ID#242264:
FWIW - the oil service stocks are trying to come back from their severe beating. Watch the OSX go.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:02
Charleston Gold Bug (NEM) ID#344389:
Critical support level @19

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:01
Gollum (@Walt ) ID#35571:
Copyright © 1998 Gollum/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Gold and equities drop at first because of herd instinct and flight to safety.

The herd knows something is wrong and it's time to preserve capital. Their first instinct is to rush to bonds. Equities certainly isn't the place to be, and commodities ( oil, gold, all that stuff ) haven't been doing all that great and cash doesn't pay interest.

Later when the stampeding stops they'll sort it all out.

Then, bonds will begin to fall and the new stampede to get out of the bond market will begin. If equities are stiil not so hot, they'll go to cash and gold. If gold starts to move, the ones in cash will also want to be on the wagon...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 10:00
THE Priest (when to buy) ID#357334:
one should look at this situation very closely and not hestitate their entry point

thanks

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:59
BillD (FWIW Brazil) ID#258427:
now down ~7%....PM's ~~~~~~~~~~~~zzzzz~~~~~~

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:58
sharefin (Swing charts) ID#284255:
-
http://www.cairns.net.au/~sharefin/Charts/Swing.htm

Solar line up:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Solar
Set time to now and set the date to: May 5th 2000

Sunspot cycle - will we eclipse the top set in the Sixties?
http://science.msfc.nasa.gov/ssl/pad/solar/images/zurich.gif

Todays sun:
http://www.lmsal.com/YPOP/ProjectionRoom/latest_SXT.html

Global weather
http://www.intellicast.com/weather/intl/worldsat/

Volcanic activity
http://www.goodnet.com/~ej76707/cerupt.htm

Jo-Anne effect a month away?

Dow high and gold low.






Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:55
Gollum (@EJ ) ID#35571:
If not now, then very soon.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:50
Walt (@ Gollum) ID#242264:
I've noticed that you made this point previously and it makes sense. At this point I'm just so puzzled that in the wake of all these news yesterday and this morning gold still DROPS instead of levelling off. Instead the XAU gaps down at the open.

I promise I'll keep the faith. At least for a little while longer.
Thanx Gollum.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:42
EJ (Gollum ) ID#45173:
Perhaps it's time to buy some gold stocks for a short term play.
-EJ

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:36
Gollum (@Walt ) ID#35571:
I think some people are looking back, and that's why I don't think gold will have a sharp V dip this time but more of a shallow U.

For the most part though, the herd runs on instinct and no matter how many times they find the lightening flash induced stampede was worthless they always still take off running at the next unexpected flash.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:30
Walt (@GOLDY LOTS) ID#242264:
Yes - makes sense and I think that's also what Gollum is pointing to in his 9:17 post.

I just would have thought that at least some people would think a couple of months back and say - whoa - maybe gold would be a good alternative. Maybe I'm just looking for logic in all the wrong places.

Thanks your comments! At least there's hope on the horizon.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:27
esotericist (@gollum) ID#224230:
I suppose it's cheaper than bottled water..

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:25
Gollum (@GOLDY LOTS ) ID#35571:
Right on the mark.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:24
crazytimes (widespread talk that ECB will sell billions of dollars to beef up yen reserves) ID#344326:
http://www.iht.com/IHT/TODAY/THU/FIN/bux.html

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:24
Gollum (Rolling thunder) ID#35571:
With the rush into treasuries by the second wave of flight money, the credit crunch returns. New fire in the hole.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:21
neer-do-well (Goldfevr) ID#391172:
Again, thanks again for the summation of events. Helps me understand. We are into an historic change, who knows where it will lead or how it will end.

I only know of one person around here who is interested. They are going to have a lot of trouble when this is dished up.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:19
GOLDY LOTS (Walt My-theory) ID#354172:
Copyright © 1998 GOLDY LOTS/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

I believe this is very similiar to the last panic where first a safe haven was sought in US Treasuries and then eventually gold. My theory is that a flight to safety into US Treasuries continues until it appears that the move is over done. That is, price has increased too much/ decrease in yield to the point were it is no longer a good value. At this point a new safe haven is sought, that being gold. I believe last time this occurred as the yield went down below 5% and we are just about there again. Also last time, as world conditions improved, US Treasuries were than sold whereby the yield started to increase. At this point gold began its most recent slide. Does this make any sense? Comments appreciated.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:18
Gollum (@esotericist ) ID#35571:
It's just that diesel fuel is so cheap nowadays.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:17
Gollum (Getting the timing right) ID#35571:
The second wall, the second bond spike, the rebirth of the gold Phoenix, the swoon and surge of the silver falcon, and other events of this great historic time are rapidly unfolding.

To get the timing right you have to think back to the first wall and the great precious metals dip at the end of August into the depths of September, and the ensuing bond spike. We are rapidly approaching the second bond spike and the rebirth of the Phoenix...

http://www.lowrisk.com/image/wme-rates.gif

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:15
Roebear (rate cuts) ID#412172:
Used to be kitcoites posted URL with news.....

http://www.news.com/Investor/NewsItem/0,213,0~0~~~~TOP~334639910~~~~,00.html

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:13
esotericist (@gollum - your posts crack me up) ID#224230:
Only reservation withtoday's initial offering.....
A Diesel locomotive ?
What's wrong with Steam ? Pssshhhhh
Better sound effects. More levers. I can just see you.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:10
GOLDY LOTS (Walt-my theory) ID#354172:


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:10
Eldorado (@the scene) ID#213265:
The Hatt -- It spells too much debt and pushing on a string. Only one way that ever ends...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:08
Walt (Help!) ID#242264:
I don't understand why gold is dropping instead of appreciating.


On Bloomberg this morning: Concern stocks will drop sent the dollar lower against the yen. Well, shouldn't this have a positive impact on gold?

The last couple of days gold has been weakening while the danger signals from Asia, Latin America, domestic jobs etc. have been resurfacing louder and clearer.

So why dangitall doesn't gold respond and even drop further?
I don't get it. Can anybody enlighten me?



Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:08
Gollum (Bond spike) ID#35571:
We're gonna drop thru 5.0 %

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:05
Gollum (Alert!!!) ID#35571:
Silver bounce.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:03
Gollum (Rolling) ID#35571:
Now that the gold freight is moving a little we can start feeding it some more throttle without the wheels slipping. Soon, very soon, the movement will become more noticeable.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 09:01
The Hatt (1929 all over again.....) ID#381261:
Series of interest cuts around the World spells CRISIS MANAGEMENT or should I say MISMANAGEMENT!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:58
Crystal Ball (@ gunrunner) ID#287378:
Copyright © 1998 Crystal Ball/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I can't see the Mountie getting much numismatic premium. For numismatic value, I tend to stick to US coins because the market is so much larger and liquid. Back 20 years ago, I collected proof Canadian gold ( Year of the Child, Olympics, Jubilee, etc ) but they are now still basically just going for bullion value. Same story for Israeli gold proofs. I was able to buy the Shalom gold proof for a little over bullion recently. I bought the silver Israeli Seafarer proof in 1979 or 1980 for $700 at the height of the gold and silver frenzy; they are going for a fraction of that now. I still like the Swiss Schützentalers ( Shooting Talers ) , but once again, the market is limited. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind owning Una and the Lion. Yowza!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:45
goldfevr (U.S. Stock Market bear-crash is on schedule.) ID#434108:
Copyright © 1998 goldfevr/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:09
goldfevr ( The U.S. Stock-Markets' Crash of '98-'99 is due to resume. ) ID#434108:
Copyright © 1998 goldfevr All rights reserved
DJIA, S&P 500 & other U.S popular averages
are set-up
for the return of the bear.

From my 9/27/97 kitco post:
When the tent collapses,
it will not be the center-post that goes first;
but the side-posts,
And even the stakes...

The 'problem' is not an Asian contagion ,
nor a Russian one,
nor a Brazilian one.....etc. etc.

The problem is sytemic, fundamental,
basic to a global economy
evolved entirely out of the corrupted currencies & credits
based on a U.S. dollar denominated & dominated world;
cut-loose from the restraint, discipline, accountability and
inherent integrity of gold backing and gold-convertibility.

The spreading world-wide deflation contagion
of the late 1990s'
is the inevitable - reaction and response to
decades of unrestrained artificial credit creation,
and its resulting unsustainable expansion.

The initial currency melt-downs emanating from SE Asia,
beginning in July, 1997;
was the beginning of the end of this world-wide,
artificial-credit,
global 'bubble' economy.

But SE Asians nations were simply the more vulnerable or
weak outer 'perimter' points, of an inherently
flawed and corrupted world economy, built on fiat money.

The world's economy has evolved, and engineered, out of
power-driven, corrupted banking and government institutions,
and practices:
of leverage - leveraged upon - leverage ... ad infinitum.

Profligate credit-expansion for generations, is rooted
in the inherently unbridled nature of fiat money, subject
only to the whim and expediency of the
mmomentary powers that be.

And now the innocent, as well as the guilty,
the world over, are reaping the harvest:
reaping a 'world-wind' of excess, over-capacity,
distortion, imbalance, corruption,
currency-melt-down, economic desperation, looming trade-wars,
and threatening political and social instability,
to the point of international brinksmanship.

The world economy has been corrupted into
an inverted pyramid of debt leveraged upon debt.....
and now it is toppling in upon itself.

Like the fabled pied-piper: a fiat-dollar dominated
international monetary & credit system,
threatens to lead every country and free nation into the
deflationary pit of poverty and servitude, one after the other.

World economic collpase can be averted, but only by
the assertive leadership of national and world
leaders who can agree on the return to a
gold-backed and -convertible
international currency and credit system.

The Asian Tigers were simply the weaker links, breaking first.
But all points, all nations, and their currencies, markets, and economies, will suffer
deflationary collapse......
similar to what is already gripping Asia, Russia, and Brazil.....
if bold, cooperative, international leadership fails
to address the underlying cause of the economic malaise
gripping the world like a sinking Titanic:
faulty, fiat money and credit....created out of nothing.....
a monetary & credit cancer set loose upon the world,
gradually, over generations.

This final legacy of world-wide deflationary collapse and
global depression is inevitable,
unless the failed policies of fiat-money governments and their international banking interests,
are owned up to;
and a new international monetary system is restored,
based on gold backing and gold-convertibility.

Without such statesman-like courage and coordination
on an international scale,
country after country,
and nation after nation,
will continue to sell it's soul
to the highest bidder.

The world-economy tent is collapsing;
stake by stake, then side-posts, and finally -
the center-post -- the U.S. & European markets & economies.

Sincerely,
David Blair Macrory
goldfever@k-online.com

( Reference: see my Feb. 1998 article,
published elsewhere on the net, at golden-eagle.com:
The Golden Cure for Deflation Contagion. )


Return to Kitco Homepage

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:45
gunrunner (Yes) ID#354133:
Copyright © 1998 gunrunner/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Year2000 - The SGN is a good source to start from and well worth the modest investment. If you contact many of the vendors there, they will send you their full catalogs. Cheaper Than Dirt ( real name of a catalog company ) is good for reasonably priced supplies. Hope this helps.

RJ - Thanks. For helping me win a bet and prove a point to some lurkers here. And keep on regurgitating that industry insider propaganda - we appreciate any and all metals information, no matter how it is spun. Sell on, clerk-boy... No offense here.

Numismatic folks - Do you all think that the Mounties will have offer an increased numismatic value well beyond the sell-back date? I suspect that it will, but I am not a numismatic collector. Thoughts? TIA.

gunrunnr@nwfl.net


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:41
Crystal Ball (SPOO Crazy) ID#287378:
I see spoos have been between 1156 and 1180 with a big spike up this morning. What's the deal? The rate cuts in Europe?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:38
Straddler (APH and Mooney) ID#280215:
APH: Thanks for getting back to me re silver.

Sherlock Mooney: I DO like M&M.s. How did you know that? How could you tell by my posting a few million line posts, whether I am getting an M&M rush or a coffee rush. By the way, I hate coffee.

Sorry if I cannot replay to anything till this afternoon. I have more meetings to attend this morning than Clinton has mistresses. Later.



Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:38
Fred(@Vienna) () ID#185448:
Re: Germany cuts rates

It is in. Competetive devaluation.
Ahead: Monetary impotence. Cheap money wont spur demand. Ashes to ashes. Funk to funky, la la la...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:37
Observer (Mike Sheller ) ID#173196:
According to zee zen Book of zee Living, the price of one man trading can be or might be, flat to nothing. Sometimes? Kinda like Gold.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:37
BillD (Whoa....now almost down 6%) ID#258427:
somebody do sumptin....

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:35
BillD (EJ...try almost 5%...) ID#258427:
That's down 5%--Brazil....

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:31
EJ (Weakness in the retaining wall that's holding back the storm) ID#45173:
will spook Wall Street today.

Brazil Bovespaplunges 3.46 Pct After Open On Govt Setback--Traders

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:31
Straddler (kapex: EWave) ID#280215:
Copyright © 1998 Straddler/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Thanks for your posts. I like a good discussion where we can disagree without fighting. I think we should agree to disagree on the Longer term scenario. However, I believe like you that right now we are headed down. Whether we are in the start of a bear market wave down or whether we are in correction mode in wave ( C ) down, the bottom line is that we are going down to test the lows. Wave ( C ) 's can be brutal just like the start of bear markets. We could easily get that crash people are talking about and still be in wave ( C ) .

Also regarding some indexes in 5 waves and some in 3, you are right. That does not mean that the 5 wavers cannot be part of a 5-3-5 zig zag correction, while at the same time, the Dow and S&P500 can trace out a 3-3-5 expanded flat. This also could mean that the 5 wave indexes are indeed beginning a bear and the others are simply lagging behind and will eventually participate in the bear. If I knew and If I was an EWave expert, I would be posting all the time because I wouldn't need my real job. I use EWave in conjunction with other indicators. I simply chose to use it in its standard form on its own as it was originally layed out, sticking to its rules. Just like some try to change the moving average times in the MACD indicator to better fit their trading market, I prefer to leave the MACD durations as they were designed and use all of the indicators together to form a conclusion.

Bottom line is everything points down for stocks in the next few months at least, and it would be wise to position for it. Good luck in your trading and I look forward to your posts.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:27
Mike Sheller (Kitco Koan) ID#348257:
zince the thoughtz turn to zen zis morning...


what is the price
of one man trading?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:27
Cyclist (today) ID#339274:
up ;crude,SnP,
down;bonds
sideways:gold
bottoming:plat,V bottom

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:26
Mike Sheller (Fred@Vienna) ID#348257:
I'm a Burger King man myself, but Chicken McLatex sounds fine. Yum!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:19
FOX-MAN (Ok everyone; How's these rate cuts in Europe goin' to affect Metals?) ID#288186:
!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:16
Cage Rattler (They must be getting worried, cutting so near to euro launch ...) ID#33184:
Bundesbank cuts rates to 3.0%.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:15
STUDIO.R (@mOzel, mt. (master'O'thinkin')..........) ID#119358:
You will be pleased to learn that, based on early findings, apparent light does not exist within a red hole. Yes, it's pretty damn dark in there. gotz' to go to da' office........GO GOLDBUGS!!!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:07
Cueball (across the board) ID#344286:
Rates cuts in Europe for everyone almost. la la la la la

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 08:01
STUDIO.R (@gOllum........) ID#119358:
zi'

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 07:59
Gollum (Anybody out there still waiting for delivery?) ID#35571:
03:38 E.U. INVESTIGATING FRAUD INVOLVING APPROX. $602.3MLN IN ASIAN IMPORTS:FT.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 07:55
Gollum (@STUDIO.R ) ID#35571:
Zenists, too, realize that value is maya.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 07:48
STUDIO.R (@here at the studio.r Institute of Higher Thinkology.........) ID#119358:
our anti-scientists have been able to isolate and identify the sound of a non-value actually being sucked into a red hole....here it is: SoooooooooooWooOOPPP!!! Remain aware of this sound today. thank you.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 07:41
contrarian (Double Black Hole) ID#203137:
Seems to me Gold is caught betwwen two black holes! The one right below ( called the Black TANKING Hole ) if it drops any further, and the one above ( at 298 called the FED Black Hole ) ! Cause at 298 it just gets sucked in by the FED Black Hole and back into the TANKING Black Hole!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 07:32
STUDIO.R (@what is a red hole?) ID#119358:
A red hole is a hypothetical vortex where all things of previously regarded value are attracted, sucked into and ultimately made unreal. The only known notions to effectively resist a great red hole are gold, goldbugs and gods.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 07:28
Fred(@Vienna) () ID#185448:
Mike Sheller
OhOhOh! Wanted to pay the dinner from my presumptive gains at 370. But just realized that if AU goes 370 cause the USD halves vs Deutschmark ( and by that vs my ATS ) I will be even - hope you dont mind Chicken McLatex at McDonalds-Novartis-Mercedes-Citicorp ( after the merger ) Just in case..

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 07:17
Mike Sheller (the moment approaches) ID#348257:
What's all this here negative talk? Negative on gold, Negative on silver, Negative even on particles, fer cryin' out loud.

Alls gold gotta do it pop above 297.50 basis spot, and we are on our merry way to 370 my springtime.

Ahhh, spring...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 07:01
Mike Sheller (Fred@Vienna) ID#348257:
I look forward to it!

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:55
Donald (Morning dollar weakness blamed on Brazil) ID#26793:
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/981203/fs.html

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:55
Gollum (@rhody ) ID#43349:
bit not bot

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:54
Gollum (@rhody ) ID#43349:
I agree silver is in for an even bigger hit, and it's going to pull gold down a bot too because of it. Sort of like the V spike at the end of August, but not so bad for gold this time.

Anyone who picked the bottom of the V made a bundle last time.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:53
Hedgehog (Time....channeling me again ) ID#39857:
the brain devised to enhance ego by defining time, it is the characteristic spin of a particular universe, like the weather
pattern of a planet, variable according to velocity of spin.
there I go again, ISMFST ( I slap my face several times )
so where does this lead us...............?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:49
Gollum (@jims ) ID#43349:
Copyright © 1998 Gollum/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Sort of. Actually I am awaiting the second spike in bond prices. If gold holds now while bonds run up it will have a much higher base to move from once the second spike ends.

And end it will. Unemployment is risng too fast going into an election year for it not to. Not to mention Y2K fears.

Liquidity will be injected ( printed? ) , inflation will show up again, and the bond market will recollapse.

Looking at the chart presented last night in my post about the second spike it appears we no more than a month or two to wait amd in view of the rapid run up in bond prices perhaps as little as a day or two.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:48
Fred(@Vienna) () ID#185448:
Mike Sheller
If AU is 370 in spring, I´ll pay lunch for you and LGB. ( drinks incl.! ) .

Really hope you´re right

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:46
arby (@ James and stops) ID#72316:
James, I found out yesterday that the only one that can see a stop order in our computer system is the firm that entered the order. The only one who can change the order is the person who entered it. This convinces me that your accusation of your stop being triggered knowingly by the registered trader on Alcan was nonsense.
rb

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:42
rhody (@ all re. LEASE RATES: If you thought yesterday was a bad day) ID#411440:
for silver, watch what happens to it today when COMEX opens.
I know it looks like the rise in lease rates was driven by a
jump in $LIBOR, but then why have long term lease rates for silver
fallen, while one month leases jumped. Silver is going to be
hit big time today. FWIW. Rhody

Gold is not looking good either, even in the face of a falling USD.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:38
Gollum (Hedgeing: above and below the ground) ID#43349:
Copyright © 1998 Gollum/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Let us say you are a gold producer with large unmined reserves. Let us say current prices are such that it is profitable to mine and deliver the gold.

If you want to protect yourself from possible falling prices in the future you can sell the gold forward. Then even if prices fall you can continue to mine and deliver the gold to the person or persons contracturally obligated to buy it at the agreed upon original price.

Of course if prices fall it means there is less demand, but you are continueing to produce anyway which only furthers the price drop.

Let us say however that you mine and produce more gold than you need to and stockpile the excess.

Once the stockpile gets large enough you are in a position tp write puts against it.

So long as the price falls or stays the same you make money by writing puts. Once your forward sales run out you can even lay off all your workers and continue to profit.

Of course with no further production from forward sales the demand will eventually drive prices up to where you will have to deliver against your puts.

It isn't so bad to have to deliver because prices are up, it just means you will have to hire back a crew and go back into producing again.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:36
jims (Gollum) ID#252391:
Copyright © 1998 jims/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
You are construing Gold's doing nothing ( down 30 cents now ) as bullish long term. I wonder if we don't have the fundlementals qrong in that view. Perhaps the Central Bank Cabal and the 11,000 tonnes of gold at their disposal ( excluding US gold ) will for the foreseeable future dictate the price of gold to the long term preservation of the paper machine which the socialistic countries of the western world require as much as the internet kiting denizens of Wall Steet.

I would like to see my view of honest money become accepted and gold previal over its manipulators, but I think we are way too early in the piece and I'm not anxious to see the world we'll kive in when gold is supremn.

Just kicking around some ideas . . . .but I do think we go lower in the metals and mining stocks before we go higher. The DOW and the S&P will arrest their descent within another 5 % down ( as will just about everything else for that matter ) but stocks will out perform commodities and gold back up on the upside. Remember a weaker dollar would be very bullish for the large multlinationals - just what otherwise weak earnings might need.

Who knows, reason in these markets is up side down.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:36
Mike Sheller (I smell a bottom in oil & gas) ID#348257:
Copyright © 1998 Mike Sheller/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
or is it just the gas I'm smelling...

First of all, there were far too many people on the NYSE balcony yesterday at the close. When the bough breaks...

The oil panic is now thick enuf to be cut with the proverbial knife.
Yesterday the Wall Street Journal featured nothing but oil stories... all telling us what a disaster the sector is and how ugly an investment it will be for the forseeable future. I say back the truck up and start shovelling in the shares of drillers
and small & midsize producers. If CRK ( Comstock Resources ) and KOGC ( Kelley Oil & Gas ) don't bring in at least 200% from these levels by 2001, I'll buy LGB lunch.

As for crude, we may have to wait a bit longer to go long futures if that's your bent. We will have to watch the price chart in the next two months for a reasonable indication of entry after the smoke clears.

I think Jim ( ? ) Kramer on CNBC summed it up best when he pointed out that in some places on the upper East Side in New York, a cup of coffee costs as much as a barrel of oil. Hmmmmm ( quoting Tolerant1 ) . There's an anecdotal indicator if ever.

My astrologicals indicate likely strong action for silver, and quite likely gold as well, in May ( possibly a peaking time window ) , so look for a base forming now for a launch in the next few weeks. That's the best case. Worst case is we plummet from here and bottom in May. I'm betting on BEST case here. Gold may have just completed a
double bottom. It has certainly broken its downtrend and has already made a small return move back to overhanging resistance, which should be new support. Look for 370 by spring.

Watch that Popocatapetal Volcano in Mexico. Mexico City's horoscope
looks very dangerous about now, confirming the recent volcanic activity. In the next two months we will see critical aspects - major longterm configurations that are often indications of serious
seismic difficulties. This is potentially catastrophic!

QUESTION FOR THE DAY:
Never mind the Middle East ( for the moment ) - what would happen to the price of oil if Mexico City went the way of Pompeii? ( God Forbid!!! )

Have you been watching OPEN? It's a double since my recent alert, but I expect $5 - $7 for this stock. And possibly sooner rather than later. Now XSYS has to pop...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:36
esotericist (Gold Just Won't go away) ID#224230:
The previous stuff's been pushed down a little for a week or so, but with markets the world over tanking, the disciples of easy money/paper wealth are fresh out of excuses. Though now the talking heads will be able to include Credit Crunch in their twitterings.

It is however time to turn on the lights and return to REALITY.

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/current/stwatch.htx?source=htx/http2_mw

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:35
Spock (Great Mysteries of the Earth) ID#210114:
There is a lot of bullish sentiment on Kitco tonight.

Not unusual, but mysterious.

Live Long and prosper.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 06:10
Gollum (momentum) ID#43349:
Copyright © 1998 Gollum/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Slowly the momentum builds as the diesels turn fuel into motion. All through the night and day gold holds above the event horizon as the others go down.

The $300 dollar barrier is like a brick wall. Hit a brick wall with a paper airplane and it won't even notice though the paper plane be going at four hundred miles an hour.

Hit it with a 14,000 ton freight train and it will give way like it was never there even if the freight is going at only five miles an hour.

The trick is in mass and momentum.

Gold may not look like it's doing much, but then that in itself is saying a lot.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 05:56
Speed (WSJ Silver commentary) ID#29048:
-
Meanwhile, analysts said silver's plunge was largely technical, or driven by traders who buy and sell the market based on historical chart patterns rather than supply and demand fundamentals. Scott Meyers, senior technical analyst with Pioneer Futures Inc. in New York, said as traders drove the price lower, funds entered the market and began selling. He said more selling could occur if the March contract falls below $4.71 an ounce.

Similar comments from CRB Index:

http://www.crbindex.com/reviews/story2333.html

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 05:45
contrarian (talking of black holes) ID#203137:
that's the way Gold looks to mee. Right done the mouth of a
big black hole into oblivion. Down against Yen;Dem:US$ and up
on AUD$ which has been tanking since last week.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 05:24
Fred(@Vienna) () ID#185448:
jims
Soon you will see the austrian stock-exchange in red too.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 05:12
jims (Make it two exchanges short of a straight RED FLUSH) ID#252391:
Among the Asian and and European markets only Austria and Korea made or are holding gains. Oherwise it was and is DOWN across the board. Losses in Europe are in the 1-3%. We need some rate cuts, some government stimulation - intervention or investors may pack up buying forthe year leaving the markets to fall illiquidly lower.

JSE ALL GOLD stopped free falling when down 3+% at 941.

The yen is up 150 points at 85, gold is flat......

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 05:09
Fred(@Vienna) () ID#185448:
Nick
LAF is in the air. From 0.041 to 0,115. Talking bout November. Have some volume. Had a perfect bowl.

Tidy, can guru town-sport?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 04:58
Fred(@Vienna) () ID#185448:
aurator
Recently saw a movie in very very late night TV, the story - believe it or not - was located in NZ of the fifties. Wonderful country, but when the 2 girls finally killed their mother with a brick wrapped into a nylon it was 3am, which is rather late even here in OZ3R.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 04:54
jims (UPDATE) ID#252391:
S&P down 1480 points, yen up more than 100 points, gold flat, bonds rallying 1/4.

S&P has first line of support at 1150, current on its low at 1158.

PPT better get busy - this thing could steam roll.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 04:33
SandGropher (yk2) ID#284139:
perfect solotion for the yk2, would be by a year 2000 compliant
computor in 1999. stop the dull , drab , end of the earth droll
i'm buying shares in dell they are going to sell a hell off a
lot computors next year and perhaps their p/e are acctually
quiet reasonably any way doom makers have a nice day/night !

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 04:31
aurator () ID#257304:
Nick@C
Strine at its best. You're a perler.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 04:27
RJ (..... SWP1 .....) ID#411259:

The onlyest thing I can say in response should brighten the hearts of goldbuggerydom:

They can't keep it down forever, no?

Yes

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 04:20
RJ (..... Japanese Twins? I Do Like That! .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

The only solution I can find, in my sleepy state, is to alternate weekends. I'll keep my twin talking one weekend - to give you a breather - and you keep yours talking the next weekend - so that my twin does not make our amor way too noisy and one sided. This will be an easy task, aided as it is, by the almost perfect flip in times zones. If we keep them on a regular day schedule, one should be sleeping while the other is awake and about. This is starting to sound like a good plan.....

If you ever find yours saying Oh
Immediately before mine says YES!
See if you can't keep yours asleep awhile longer
Mine Is busy.

OK, so that's it.... I'm in for the Twin Thingie

Should we use an actual Japanese pair, or Americans who are ethnic Japanese? You are the Idea Man, that has always been your strong point, so I'll let you work out the details of which twins will want to further this research.

I have applied for all necessary Federal Grants, and the cash keeps pouring in. We are awash with money to raise this project, through sweat and tender toils, to its proper heights.

I like the way you think, lad

Yes

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 04:17
Donald (China raids small saver accounts to support bankrupt state industries) ID#26793:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-12/03/107l-120398-idx.html

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 04:00
Dabchick (Wednesday's Gold and Silver Lease Rates) ID#258195:
Copyright © 1998 Dabchick/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
For Wednesday 2nd Dec calculated from data published in Today's FT.
Period------------1- month--------3-month--------6- month---------12- month
$LIBOR-------------5.62--------------5.28-------------5.12-----------------5.09

Mean GoldLR------4.17---------------4.08-------------3.81-----------------3.51
Gold Lease Rate---1.45---------------1.20-------------1.31-----------------1.55
( Change ) ------ ( + 0.63 ) ------- ( - 0.01 ) ------- ( 0.00 ) ----------- ( + 0.01 )

Silver Lend Rate----4.00--------------3.35-------------2.55-----------------2.30
Silver Lease Rate---1.62--------------1.93--------------2.57-----------------2.76
( Change ) --------- ( + 0.46 ) -------- ( - 0.15 ) --------- ( - 0.03 ) ------------ ( - 0.03 )
$LIBOR = BBA London rate fixed at 11am
Mean Gold Lending Rates and Silver Lending Rates are supplied to the FT by NM Rothschild
Lease Rate = $LIBOR minus Lending Rate .
( Change ) = change in lease rates since previous day
N.B. Yesterday, 1-month $LIBOR jumped back up to 5.62% again . I do not know why, but it has liftted the 1-month lease rate again. In case of reporting errors in the FT, I now give ( for comparison ) the FT rates for US Dollar CD's :

Period------------1- month--------3-month--------6- month---------12- month
US$ CD's-----------5.16-------------4.95---------------4.88---------------4.85

Sorry I have not even had time for lurking recently. Hope to catch up this weekend.
Regards.............Dabchick

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 03:59
jims (JSE ALL GOLD off 3%) ID#252391:
South African golds in free fall overnight with the JSE All Gold off 3%+ on its lows.

More weakness for the XAU ahead.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 03:59
SWP1 (@RJ) ID#233199:

What do you make of Mr Greenspans comment of some months ago about the willingness of Central Banks to keep the price of Gold from moving up?

I know there are many ways to read that - and it was a number of months ago, but I would like to hear what you have to say. HOw does it play into your expectations for the price of Gold in the comming year - if at all?

Thanks...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 03:55
RJ (.....Aaaaaaaannnnnddd .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Also understand that the only way we could be certain that the particle pairs are born of a single event, would be to create them under controlled conditions, and send them off at great speeds, away from each other. We would have to be able to determine which particle here would correspond to which particle way over there. This alone is an insurmountable problem.

Even if this could be done, once a particle chooses a history
That history has ALWAYS been true and valid
No way to reset the particle for another go at it
You would have to create another particle pair and send them off once again

This process would be enormously slower than a powerful radio beacon

Cheaper and easier is often better

'Cept in beer and wine and tequila and fine Jamaican rum.

That's the truth

Yep

PS
When I say the outcome of the measurement is always exactly 50/50, do not confuse this with the flipping of coins discussed earlier. A coin may flip up heads 100 times in a row. There is a non-zero probability that the coin would come up heads for all eternity. No law prevents this. While the probability is quite tiny, it does not reach zero.

Quantum theory has taught us that what is not expressly forbidden is ultimately required. ( which means gold MUST go up, only a matter of when, yes? )

Quantum particle behavior does not give us the non zero escape route. If one did 100 measurements, 50 would always yield one result, and 50 another. A million measurements would produce exactly 500,000 of one polarity and the same of the other. Never would the result vary from 50/50 by even the smallest percentage. One would never see 5000,001 of this and 499,999 of the other. This is counterintuitive but it is the law and it does have the merit of describing exactly what we observe.

Perhaps an argument could be made that we do KNOW the outcome of the very last particle. Find which half of them are shy one manifestation and the bet is certain that the last particle will fill out the equality. This is my own idea, and probably lacking in anything of value for some reason I have not yet learned. But if this could be worked out, the problems of identifying a matched pair across a greater distance than the information can travel to be of any use, is still way undoable.

The really interesting question is this:

How does the last particle know it is the last in the experiment?

It does know, you know, that it is the final in the long line
It knows it must assume a particularly polarity ( or spin, or charge )
Because it is the only one left if indeedy it is last

But how does the particle know it is last?

Two tiny slits hold the answer to This Poser….

OK



Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 03:52
Nick@C (Auracious. Streuth,mate...these northerners think they understand) ID#386245:
Copyright © 1998 Nick@C/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
us Antipodeans. We've been acting the goat lately. No worries, I'm not aggro at these northern ankle biters. We'll give 'em the arse. Bunch of back door bandits bagging us ockers. Don't feel like a bandicoot on a burnt ridge, mate, 'caus the northern sheilas bang like a dunny door in a gale. Some of 'em are a bit of alright though. No use bashing your brains out over these bitzers. They can go to blazes, or buggery if it suits 'em. Blimey, mate, don't wanna do your block over a pack of mongrels. Bloody oath. Bunch of bludgers running around like blue-arsed flies. Hang onto your blue vein flute cause Bob's your uncle, mate. We'll go out to the boozer and put the boot into these pikers. These bodgies wouldn't know their bollicles from a bolter. She'll be bonzer, mate. We've got Buckleys of getting in our chop, but we'll give it a burl even if you're busier than a one-armed paper hanger with the crabs. They're cactus, mate. Probably feelin' butchers. Most of these chockos are one chop short of a barbecue, so tell 'em to choof off!! I've dropped a few clangers in my time and feel like chundering or even chucking a wobbly, mate, but I won't go spaz at this Claytons mob of Collins Street farmers. Gives me the collywobbles 'caus they're not worth a pinch of cocky's poop. Pile of codswallop, so I'll cop it sweet as long as I'm not within cooee of these bludgers. Their boss cocky drops his daks at the sniff of a sheila and with his trouser snake thinks he's a pants man. What a perve!! This bunch of derros keeps flogging a dead horse, mate. Just take a decko at those dishlickers!! Fair dinkum, mate, I'm as dry as a dead dingo's donger and am done like a dinner. So now that I've dropped my bundle I'm heading for the esky. Fair crack of the whip, mate, I'm totally euchred. When gold is home and hosed I'll get a fair crack at the sauce bottle. These northern galahs are happy as Larry in their humpies, glued to the idiot box. So starve the lizards, mate, 'caus I'm knackered. Feel ready to pass in my marble. They can get nicked, 'caus they're on the nose anyway. This post is more than you can poke a stick at, so I'm away with the pixies. I've copped the rough end of the pineapple in my time, but am now finished stirring the possum. I'll probably cop a quilting over this, but she'll be apples, mate. Nick.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 03:43
Shadowfax (THC Re: Oleman) ID#290281:
Oleman talks on Avid Traders Chat.

http://avidtrader.com/chat

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 03:41
Envy (@RJ) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Still don't get it. I see what you're saying, but an analogy would be, say, two identical twins that had a psychic link or something *grin*. One of them is always talking, but both are never talking at the same time. If the twin I'm watching is talking, I know the other one isn't. If mine isn't talking, I know the other one is. If you, RJ, are standing in Japan with one of the twins, and I'm standing in New York with the other one, then we could transfer information between us! I'd just make my twin shut up, then talk, then shut up, etc, and send you morse code. You'd just have to listen to your twin for the pattern. Are you saying that I can't make my twin shut up ? *grin*

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 03:19
Envy (Black Hole) ID#219363:
Nah, it's just a big sun spewing out particles ( in reverse time )

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 03:17
RJ (..... Eeeeenvy........ Ringin the Belllllllll ......) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

The problem lies within the nature of the particle
Spooky action at a distance has been proven
By all methods such a thing can be proven
Mathematical theory borne of experimental observation


The result of any particular measurement
Is that the particle chooses a past
It now knows where and what it is
But the probability is always exactly 50/50
With zero way to determine
The outcome of any particular measurement

One could not force a particle to assume a particular history

Thus, if one where to measure the polarity of a particle
We know the oh so distant particle must assume the opposite polarity
Thereby obeying symmetry and energy conservation
But the next particle we measure
Will choose, willy nilly, its own nature and past
With no possible way to determine or shape the outcome

Even simple on/off or yes/no could not be communicated in this manner
As all particles are spiteful and ornery critters
Particularly the graviton, which I suspect is a cheap and whorish particle
Invented by those desperate to hold on the last tattered remnants
Of the theory of the bang which was way big
A particle obeys no law but imprecise and random manifestation
Of its own true self, which it knows not, until it has to
And offers us no clues to the mystery of its choices

I'm not sure this is clear.
If not, I will elaborate another time
Sleepy……..Must get to beddddd……….. failing fast……………


ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Yep


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 03:15
Cage Rattler (Dollar doing the vanishing act again ...) ID#33184:


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 03:06
Hedgehog (Physics.....channeling Shiva) ID#39857:
hmmmm......a black hole. somewhere out there where nothing escapes from,
and everything escapes too. like water down the plug hole and gold down the toilet a black hole merely is a window where matter in equates to
matter out. howdy to my dear kitco friends.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 03:05
aurator (Panglossian moments..) ID#257304:
And I am right,

And you are right,

And all is right as right can be.

... Sir W. S. Gilbert

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 02:56
Envy (Bell's) ID#219363:
I've never intuitively understood why two spin coupled particles can't be used to transfer information at super-luminal speeds by flipping the spin on one of the particles space-wise seperated from the other and reading the result on the second particle. If the particles are bound to one another and the changes happens instantly when one of them is modified, what's the deal ?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 02:51
RJ (..... Or .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

De Nada ( south-o-the-border )
Por noir ( is that right? )
Ehlen wa sehlen ( Arabic )
COOOooool ( California )
Huh? ( Washington DC )
Don't confuse me with the facts ( mozel's house )
It wasn't my fault ( The vast majority of Merkins )
Yeah, Mon ( Jamaica )

Not to be confused with the following class of phrases:

on no account
nothing doing
not likely
no way
no chance
not on one's life
over one's dead body
Not for all the tea in China


These are difrnt, no?

More suited to the rise of gold before year's end

Ok & OK

Limey

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 02:46
aurator () ID#257304:
Limey
Fair suck of the kumera?
'AIn't no thang but a thang' means the same thang?
golden thangs to ya

Good on ya, mate.
Salty

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 02:35
RJ (..... Salty .....) ID#411259:

Or in Merkin variety
Popularized in film and lore

Ain't no thang, but a thang

Limey

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 02:30
aurator (Ingrish) ID#257304:
ohhh

evrting irie, mon. Like
No worries, mate?

grokaurator

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 02:24
RJ (..... Salty ....) ID#411259:

Evryting irie, mon

Limey

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 02:15
aurator () ID#257304:
never did know what irie means.
rastaurator

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 02:10
THC (Thanks Aurator!) ID#367411:
To be honest I haven't partaken of THC for a while.....

Perhaps it would be better to call it the irie ingredient.....gggg

Thanks!

THC

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 02:04
RJ (..... Aldebaran .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Precisely….. Let me add that it is the anti particle carrying the negative charge which increases the entropy inside the hole. Essentially, adding the negative, must reduce the mass of the object, as its positive partner escaped - otherwise the law of energy conservation would be violated. Your explanation was right on, and in a few hundred words less than I could have made it. Bravo.

The point of The Poser is to help some understand the nature of a vacuum.

It is a torrid and busy place, teeming with great goings on and passionate couplings.

Oh yeah, regarding the evaporation process, it would take about a half trillion years for the hole to evaporate completely, depending on the mass. About 35 times the present age of the universe, as we now understand it.

There is no prize but the clear eyes through which you view the world.

Indeedy

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 02:04
aurator (Peering over the event horizon) ID#257304:
Looking at

*[*–*]*

peering back at mois.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:50
Aldebaran (RJ your poser) ID#240155:
Copyright © 1998 Aldebaran/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
energy is constantly being created everywhere, and then almost instantly destroyed. this happens in pairs, a partical and an anti-partical suddenly becomes , they move away from one another and then are drawn back to one another and then they aniahlate one another.

This happens all the time very rapidly.

Now if this happens to happen preciesly at the event horizon of a black hole, then one of the particals will be ripped away from it's mate. It's mate now all alone finds no partner with which to couple and become not. So it is, and it is outside the event horizon of the black hole so it is not drawn in.

hence there is radiation from the event horizon of a black hole.

but then I could be wrong.


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:49
mozel (@clone) ID#153110:
Thanks for the recommendations. And the good counsel.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:39
nuggets (brazil wont fall) ID#386129:
our illustrious oz leader just announced a $500mill loan to brazil
....sure would boost our ailing health system....but then, you have to have a good hotel to stay in on your overseas, Brazil junket...

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:34
RJ (..... A Poser .....) ID#411259:

JTF and Gollum, please give the rest a shot at this first.

A black hole, by definition,
Is a place from which nothing can escape.
Not even the rabidly hurtling massless photon.
By definition, a black hole cannot radiate.

But they do

Not only that…………. they evaporate….

How can this be?



Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:26
RJ (..... mozel .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

I recommended you buy a science book.

If you would like, we could dissect your post regarding this blather any shred it all to bits.

But I told you I don't have the time.

My respect for a person is always in direct proportion to how well they can see their own mistakes.

My respect for you has fallen dramatically.

Opinions may vary on governments and people, but the physical laws are immutable. They do not bend to your will nor mine. They are the same for all things everywhere…. Even in your house. If you would like to contest this point, perhaps you could enlighten us on which law is in error and the experimental evidence which proves this.

Best physical lawbreaking of the last half century was the discovery that mirror symmetry ( or parity conservation ) was not inviolate. It was found the electrons emitted by a decaying muon prefer a certain bias in direction. If one were to reverse the spin of the muon, the electrons maintain the same bias, violating symmetry. Took a lot of guys, all names you would recognize, to poke a hole through absolute natural symmetry. Also took about fifty years.

I am not sure you are up to the task of rewriting the laws of radiation, but I wish you luck.

Please let it drop here. I just reread your original posts on the subject. They are eminently shredable. I really don't have the time to spend on this. And what would be the point? You final response is, So What?.

I can't beat that argument.

Let it go, it ain't worth it.

PS
JTF post and your original assertions are at odds. My respect for you will fall even further should you now claim to have been saying that all along. Shades of the ANOTHER Belgium bank buy, or was it a sale? Its all so confusing now. Sufice to say, you could not win the argument, because nature, as God has designed, will not allow it.

I know that nature abhors a vacumm, don't make it abhor you too, yes?

Away………towritethegreatshreddingbecauseyouneverquitoradmityouarewrong

Sigh

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:21
RJ (..... Envy .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Platinum jewelry demand consumes approximately 1/3 of yearly production.

The Japanese , until last year, accounted for 80% of all platinum jewelry sold in the world. The recession has dropped demand for jewelry, but reliable and conservative sources say that increased demand from China and the USA have more than offset any Japanese decline in demand. I have gone into some detail on this in the past as well as quoted my sources.

Four years ago, China imported zero tons of platinum for jewelry. This has increased to over 9 tons this year. Platinum jewelry demand in the US has risen also, but I don't have the numbers at hand.

Regarding coins of any type:

We deal in substantial volumes of coin sales. Many people will buy several hundred thousand dollars worth of gold or platinum or silver every couple-o-months. Traders trade in the millions of $. We are the number one seller of all minted coins from the RCM and the Austrian mint. I think Blanchard has us beat in volume from the US mint, but that is in gold only. Nobody on earth sells the amount of platinum coins the we do. We are first at the feeding trough. We also supply, on a wholesale level, most of the dealers on the country, at one time or another. Had dinner with a lot of these same dealers at a dinner a couple months ago hosted by the US Mint.

When the ask price is pulled off my screen, I cannot get the coins, at any price. I turned people away a few weeks ago when I had no Platinum Eagles to sell. Smaller dealers may have a few dozen or a couple hundred in inventory, but when that is gone, he needs more, yes? He will then find it as impossible to get the coins as anyone else. Worse actually, since he is now at the back of the line. The only hope of an unexpected supply coming in, is if we buy a bunch of it back, but with sales of tens of thousands of coins a day, these coins will usually be gone in a day or two. We now have PE because the US Mint made it a priority to get the coins to us.

Also, quite apart from gold and silver, the vast majority of platinum is consumed. Only 8% finds its way into private investor's hands. The rest is gone. Scrap reclamation is more costly than it is worth because of the tiny amount of platinum that goes into each individual product or process.

Platinum is used as the catalyst to remove lead from gasoline. No unleaded gas without a PGM in its past. Reclamation is impossible from this process, but consumption is also small. But add up the squillions of gallons and all that platinum is gone. Forever.

Gold and silver have enormous aboveground inventories, although the silver supply deficit, currently near 300 million ounces, seems to finally begin to be playing a role in prices, albeit a thin one. Gold is everywhere. There is more gold in vaults today than at any time in history. Tis easy to cap off a rally when you need only throw open the vault doors to do it. CB type folks have shown an increasing willingness to do this, yes?

Even if institutions held onto their gold and silver, vast amounts are in non-institutional and private hands. All it takes is an attractive price to bring this hoard to the surface. Since a significant platinum hoard does not exist, in any form or any hands, higher prices do not carry the same consequences. As SA platinum production is at absolute max - impossible to increase without new mines and new equipment, and Russian production appears to be collapsing before our very eyes - higher prices do not translate into increased supply. Only increased production can do this. Takes a couple-o-years to get on of these new mines online, even after the site is ready and the reserves are assured. Only sustained higher prices would bring production up in the case of SA. In the Russian sector, it is hopeless.

All this being said, gold, platinum and silver should go way high, way fast in 1999.

And THAT is why we are all at this party, no?

Yes

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:09
Cowgirl (Dairy calf market has been depressed for a couple of years. People would bottle feed) ID#13953:
them, raise the calves to make a living. Then the cost of the milk and grain was more than the selling price. Death loss and medicine made this a losing business-- a very labor intensive losing business. They used to tell a joke about the farmer that put a pen full of calves out by the road with a sign that said free calves. The next day he was dismayed to find twice as many calves in his pen. Maybe it was a joke, maybe not.

Cowgirl

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:09
goldfevr (The U.S. Stock-Markets' Crash of '98-'99 is due to resume. ) ID#434108:
Copyright © 1998 goldfevr All rights reserved
DJIA, S&P 500 & other U.S popular averages
are set-up
for the return of the bear.

From my 9/27/97 kitco post:
When the tent collapses,
it will not be the center-post that goes first;
but the side-posts,
And even the stakes...

The 'problem' is not an Asian contagion ,
nor a Russian one,
nor a Brazilian one.....etc. etc.

The problem is sytemic, fundamental,
basic to a global economy
evolved entirely out of the corrupted currencies & credits
based on a U.S. dollar denominated & dominated world;
cut-loose from the restraint, discipline, accountability and
inherent integrity of gold backing and gold-convertibility.

The spreading world-wide deflation contagion
of the late 1990s'
is the inevitable - reaction and response to
decades of unrestrained artificial credit creation,
and its resulting unsustainable expansion.

The initial currency melt-downs emanating from SE Asia,
beginning in July, 1997;
was the beginning of the end of this world-wide,
artificial-credit,
global 'bubble' economy.

But SE Asians nations were simply the more vulnerable or
weak outer 'perimter' points, of an inherently
flawed and corrupted world economy, built on fiat money.

The world's economy has evolved, and engineered, out of
power-driven, corrupted banking and government institutions,
and practices:
of leverage - leveraged upon - leverage ... ad infinitum.

Profligate credit-expansion for generations, is rooted
in the inherently unbridled nature of fiat money, subject
only to the whim and expediency of the
mmomentary powers that be.

And now the innocent, as well as the guilty,
the world over, are reaping the harvest:
reaping a 'world-wind' of excess, over-capacity,
distortion, imbalance, corruption,
currency-melt-down, economic desperation, looming trade-wars,
and threatening political and social instability,
to the point of international brinksmanship.

The world economy has been corrupted into
an inverted pyramid of debt leveraged upon debt.....
and now it is toppling in upon itself.

Like the fabled pied-piper: a fiat-dollar dominated
international monetary & credit system,
threatens to lead every country and free nation into the
deflationary pit of poverty and servitude, one after the other.

World economic collpase can be averted, but only by
the assertive leadership of national and world
leaders who can agree on the return to a
gold-backed and -convertible
international currency and credit system.

The Asian Tigers were simply the weaker links, breaking first.
But all points, all nations, and their currencies, markets, and economies, will suffer deflationary collapse......
similar to what is already gripping Asia, Russia, and Brazil.....
if bold, cooperative, international leadership fails
to address the underlying cause of the economic malaise
gripping the world like a sinking Titanic:
faulty, fiat money and credit....created out of nothing.....
a monetary & credit cancer set loose upon the world,
gradually, over generations.

This final legacy of world-wide deflationary collapse and
global depression is inevitable,
unless the failed policies of fiat-money governments and their international banking interests,
are owned up to;
and a new international monetary system is restored,
based on gold backing and gold-convertibility.

Without such statesman-like courage and coordination
on an international scale,
country after country,
and nation after nation,
will continue to sell it's soul
to the highest bidder.

The world-economy tent is collapsing;
stake by stake, then side-posts, and finally -
the center-post -- the U.S. & European markets & economies.

Sincerely,
David Blair Macrory
goldfever@k-online.com

( Reference: see my Feb. 1998 article,
published elsewhere on the net, at golden-eagle.com:
The Golden Cure for Deflation Contagion. )


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:09
CC (Straddler) ID#340286:
Thanks...very clear example on your straddles.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:05
Rack (gwiz-I VERY MUCH agree with you on Y2K starting a panic. ) ID#411163:
It is starting already and no one is really doing anything yet. I just hope I can get another bag or two of silver before this thing goes totally to hell, at a decent cost of course! These on going layoff notice's might just get me in. Hard to say though as coins are hard to get. I think the basics may be worth more than gold or silver in 9 months. I live close to the Canadian border and if the power grid were to really go down WOW! you would have to evacuate HALF OF NORTH AMERICA! I would leave with only my gold, silver, cash and a few odd
.45 insurance policys.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:04
HighRise (AE_Calgary) ID#401460:

$1 / calf.....CHEAP! ........ don't you think?

$0.10 Veal

Just like 1930's

HighRise

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:04
Explorer (Currencies) ID#230243:

The currencies were up nicely today and that should reflect in both gold and commodity prices soon enough.
When foreigners realize their productive assets are being bought with a currency, more of which is being created each day, the hedge fund disasters will pale in comparision.
Yes, all the Fed horses and all Bubba's men will not put the dollar together again.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 01:00
Selby (Auditor General says Canada Not Y2K ready ) ID#286230:
http://www.canoe.ca/FPNP/dec2_auditorgeneraly2k.html

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:57
AE_Calgary (@ptwoskool) ID#7285:
I'm sorry, I may be slow, but I missed the significance of your story about the 20 calves for $20 dollars and how that relates to the depression. Could you please explain.

Cheers
Al

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:54
gwyz (@Rack...) ID#432130:
At the very least, Y2k will cause a reality sscare when it hits the regular media. That will cause a run on the banks, etc, etc. I can easily see a big mess without Y2k, and before Y2k. It surprizes me how many people cant see this.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:51
Envy (Survey: Japan's Small Firms Suffer) ID#219363:
TOKYO ( AP ) -- More and more small companies in Japan are posting losses, underlining the nation's slumping economy, according to a bank survey released Thursday. As many as 40.6 percent of small businesses surveyed said they were running a deficit in the three months from September through November, the Japan Finance Corp. for Small Businesses said. That was the highest level since the government-financed bank began compiling statistics in 1974.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpfn02.htm

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:49
Envy (Job Cuts Familiar During Holidays) ID#219363:
NEW YORK ( AP ) -- Even a stock market resting near all-time highs wasn't enough to prevent the all-too-familiar holiday refrain of companies cutting jobs from resurfacing. Several companies in a variety of industries have sent an unhappy message to their workers so far this week, announcing plans for at least 31,000 job cuts.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpfn01.htm
--
Merry Christmas

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:47
gwyz (Aurator...) ID#432130:
I left the site for the same reason as Envy.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:45
Rack (year2000-I think looking at the recent crash's in Russia ) ID#411163:
and Asia will pale in comparison to what we will see when the US$ and US economy go down. I think the time frame will be compressed into a month or so and the downside will be a 95% wipeout of all the excess's of the last 50 years. This is not going to be pretty or fun. I am betting on this happening before Y2K has a chance to do its thing. Not much longer now, its already started.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:44
Envy (@Aurator) ID#219363:
What does Avid use all that Registration info for ? I backed out of the registration screen when it wouldn't let me through w/o giving all that info. Last thing I need is more junk mail, and I can't think of a single reason they could need my phone number.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:31
Selby (Muldoon obtains Employment) ID#286230:
http://www.canoe.ca/MoneyNews/dec2_mulroneyforbes.html

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:31
aurator (A leetle chemistry, to help us on the long and winding road...) ID#257304:
THC
go here
http://avidtrader.com/chat/
register and watch the fun.

I wonder if active ingredient in majeewanna is an oxymoron?

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:28
ravenfire (signs of bubble times) ID#333126:
http://www.yahoo.co.uk/headlines/19981203/financial/0912657585-0000000069.html

new fund in Holland targets teenagers

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:18
ptwoskool ( Relevant facts, ) ID#225369:
Copyright © 1998 ptwoskool/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I read here about depression,and I try to find evidence in my experience to confirm those facts,or I go about my business and think that those facts have little to do with my life and what I try to do.

A friend of mine told me today that he saw 20 calves sell, recently, for 20 dollars.The seller could not conceive of keeping,feeding,medicating,and selling them later at a profit.A story like this was the most difficult to understand that I remember from my childhood lessons about the Great Depression.Lessons told to me by my father and my grandfather are real.They do not exist in the text of a book or on the lips of a market analyst.They mean something.They happened to my people and might happen to me.

Good nite all, and may our Gods watch over us all.


Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:17
THC (Shadowfax re Oleman ) ID#367411:
I have read Oleman's posts with interest.

Where can I access Oleman's posts directly?

TIA

THC

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:16
aurator (No hablo Epañol. ¿Et Tu Éß?) ID#257304:
Nick@Catchtheflack
I have some reading to do. Did Éß misapprehend antipodean banter and badinage? Fair Go? Eh?
Gotta rattle me dags, the ol sheila's yelt the tucker's on the table. I'll be rooted if I don't take to my scrapers.

A fence was taken when only open paddock lay ahead, Eß, amigo.



Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:14
Year2000 (Definition of Economic Terms (Depression)) ID#235209:
To forecast what will happen soon in the USA, don't look back to the 1930's for the Great Depression.

Just look at present-day Russia, Cuba, or many of the smaller Eastern European countries. High inflation, high unemployment, scarce commodities. Corrupt and bloated government that promises easy answers, if you just pay your taxes. Standards of living that slip every year.

Date: Thu Dec 03 1998 00:06
Envy (Second wall) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Envy read with interest the writings of the sage Gollum and glanced at his statement to make sure that his broker hadn't accidentally bought equities with his cash, it was all there, and he smiled. He glanced at his gold and silver coins and thought about the glorious valley of the Phoenix, and he smiled again. He watched the seemingly endless news about low commodity prices, falling profits, and corporate mergers, and took heart in the words of Oleman, knowing that Oleman speak'eth the truth of the CRB, that Oleman understood the Tao of it. Envy wrapped himself up in his PUT options so as to warm himself in the autumn chill and watched the swirling vortex with curious child's eyes. This would be Envy's first economic downturn, and he was happy to have Kitco at his side.

Source: Kitco History of the 98 Financial Crisis ISBN 0-00000-0000-0

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