Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:56
Silverbaron (Gianni Dioro) ID#290456:
Click on Argentina in the following site:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:49
Gianni Dioro (Erle - Argentina's Gold) ID#384350:
I wouldn't mind a coin or two either.

Does anyone have a link to a picture of the suspected coin?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:43
crossbow (Win 95) ID#342397:
MoReGoLd, Obsidian. Win 95 still refuses to cooperate. Thanks anyway. Will try something else when I have a clearer head.


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:42
Servhard ( @HighRise ..have you been there?(New World Order)) ID#287193:
This is an information link -site:

I am not sure if they know about the NWO.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:38
APH (Trading) ID#213135:
Copyright © 1998 APH/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The continued weakness in the XAU could carry on for another week or two dowm to the mid 60's. The weakness in the xau is a drag on the metals. Look for silver and gold to begin breaking down, silver unless it opens above today's highs should start it's desent down to the 4.40 area but not much lower then 4.36. Dec gold should work it's way down under 290, these pull backs should turn out to be buying opportunities, with low risk, for both metals.

The SnP has a gap to be filled at 1100 and another at 990. If the market goes up to fill the gap at 1100 tomorrow and the a/d is less then 2/1 when it's filled short the market, if you're not watching the market use a 10 pt stop, if you're watching the market use a mental 5 pt stop but be prepared to jump back in if knocked out.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:35
Envy (Curious) ID#219363:
Curious what Oleman has to say about recent equity moves, anybody know ? Also, what are APH's latest calls, and Sharefin's swing charts *grin*. Chicken man, you still holding those bondo PUTs ?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:34
sharefin (RAN) ID#284255:
I posted your comments and the answers onto a Geek forum.

And this was one response.

Is it actually possible that in September, 1998 there are real, live
bankers who
are _this_ ignorant?

Could someone please purchase a PC for them and subscribe them to
this list?


p.s. Do we need to do the same for the President of Detroit Edison?
I really can't believe that it is this bad out there!! :- (

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:27
Servhard (@ Hi Bart, the boys are right..congratulation!) ID#287193:
No $50.00- but another few coins--fore sure!


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:26
AE_Calgary (Just to clearify) ID#7285:
My previous post is NOT investment advice!

Who is the best internet broker in the US. I'm going to open a US trading account, if I can, because I'm getting ripped off by my Canadian web broker on US trades.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:23
Servhard ( @sharefin you have this story on your site?) ID#287193:

Whoopee..this site is fast..have not been here for a while..
What happened? Maybe I have do do some homework.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:22
HighRise (New World Order) ID#401460:
Copyright © 1998 HighRise/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Germany has Chrysler, a Major US Bank, now the NASDAQ.

Nasdaq May Team Up With Hong Kong

HONG KONG ( AP ) -- The parent of the Nasdaq Stock Market has held preliminary talks with the Hong Kong Stock Exchange about a possible alliance as it seeks to increase its international listings.

The NASD also is talking to Frankfurt Stock Exchange in Germany. It already has agreed to merge with two other U.S. exchanges: the Philadelphia Stock Exchange and the American Stock Exchange, the No. 3 U.S. market.

Its discussion with the Hong Kong Exchange comes even as Asia's financial crisis has put a damper on public share listings in the region. But NASD is being driven by the globalization of financial markets.

``It's clear to us the future of the financial world is going to be depending on better interconnection between the markets around the world,'' said Frank Zarb, chairman of the NASD.

Zarb would not elaborate about how a Hong Kong-Nasdaq alliance might work. But he said the discussions with the Hong Kong market are not nearly as far along as talks with the Frankfurt Stock Exchange.


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:22
jonboy (Gold as a hedge against disaster) ID#250251:
Copyright © 1998 jonboy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Please help, as a long term gold bull my faith in the yellow metals ability to be a store of value in times of financial crisis has been shaken by recent world events.
Asia goes into currency melt down and gold tanks, Russia's Ruble loses 90% of its value and gold tanks, the President of the USA now faces formal impeachment yet gold tanks, even the dollar when it suffers its most rapid valuation decline against the yen causes gold to barely stir.

Can any one out there offer me some good reasons to continue to believe that gold offers any security in times of disaster and will eventually respond as it once did?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:22
sharefin (Y2k & The Bell Curve ) ID#284255:
It is now the Fourth Quarter of 1998. If the vast majority of organizations
are going to be finished within a year, as we are being told, we should be
seeing some major organizations that are now finished. It is the result the
bell curve should give us: a trickle of high-achievers finished by now, a
crest of the majority of firms finishing in 1999, and a handful of
stragglers who will miss the deadline.

But here in the Fourth Quarter of 1998, there is not a single major bank
which is done; there is not a single power utility finished; there is not a
single telecommunications firm compliant; there is not a single Fortune 500
company all set; there is not a single federal agency which is finished. In
fact, the Social Security Administration, which discovered the problem way
back in 1989 and began its Y2K program in 1991, is still not finished. If
any organization should be a high achieving 'A' student, it should be the

So what can we conclude? If no major outfit has yet been able complete this
exam, if the trickle of high-achievers has not yet begun, it is obvious
that the bell curve will not crest in mid-1999. It will instead crest well
after January, 2000 - which means our economy and our prosperous way of
life are in for some serious, possibly life-threatening, disruptions.

Got Gold, Grub and Guns?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:21
AE_Calgary (Related to Kapex 21:57 - Email says Sell everything this week) ID#7285:
Copyright © 1998 AE_Calgary/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
For what it's worth, and I know second and third hand information is usually not worth much, an email to day says sell all stock positions this week


A co-worker pulled me aside this morning ( we share trading information ) , to show me an email he received from a long time trading club member and freind. This freind of his is based in Hong-Kong. The contents of the email said to sell all stock positions this week as there may be an announcement next week about 4 or 5 US financial institutions in serious trouble. I did not get from the email whether those institutions where banks or not. Appearently, this guy's wife is an investment banker and the two of them have contacts around the world. Additionally, he has shorted the Hong-Kong market to the tune of 2M $HKD.

My co-worker respects this fellows abilities and sold all his stock positions.

Additional Info:

My co-worker showed me an email from the Hong-Kong informant received the day before the FED lowered interest rates. He said that the FED was about to support the market and he called for the DOW to go to 8300.

Take this post for what it's worth!

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:19
crossbow (Win 95) ID#342397:
MoReGoLd, Obsidian, thanks for the advice. Am going to give your methods a try. I agree, there's gotta be a setup file SOMEWHERE.


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:15
MidasWell (@wert) ID#293423:
Try this-

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:15
Chicken man (Cherokee @ Options) ID#341225:
I like the look of the Yen on the charts...hoping to get aboard the Orient Express near 131-132 ...same place I jumped off in the last ride..still looking for 100 yen to the $....the charts look interesting..
could also be a BIG squeeze on the last shorts...if I get the opportunity,I'm aboard!

Playing liar's polker with the bond boy's...whew!!..two days to go..right at the money on do they say--easy come - easy go

Just a thought...Chicken man..

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:14
lefty kiwi (Erle can you please post ) ID#32176:
the email address for Argetinian CB , i will also make a purchase request as I am sure many other Kitcoites will also

go gold ( too windy for go golf today )

Also yesterday Aucklands largest Radio station was off air for two minutes ...... trialling new diesel generator

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 23:09
sharefin (Comp Geek - Year2000) ID#284255:
Embedded chips are a problem.
Critique on Mitch Ratcliffe's article
Brokers Charged With Y2K Delay
ABC Nightline: The Year 2000 Bug - very good transript
Nerc Workshop

Swing chart updated

Never before have I seen this swing climb so high so fast.
And it's got to top out very soon.

Are the sellers still in the market?

I think that we're going to find out soon enough.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 22:57
HighRise (Peace Talks ) ID#401460:

They are continuing to talk, through the night. They have turned the Iraeli jet engines off.

The irony of the situation, that a very damaged Pres. Clinton is so desperate to save his a** that he is working night and day to close this deal.

Those in control want Clinton to remain in office.
I don't think Clinton should resign Fmr. Ambassador to Russia, Robert Strauss


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 22:49
Bill El Zebub (Position squaring to capture trading loses is at hand...I only wish the market) ID#261352:
could find that downside trigger NOW.Gulps and puffs to y'all.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 22:37
Chicken man (Przytula @ Options charts) ID#341225:
I think what you are looking for is

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 22:35
Lan Man (@More THOUGHTS on Y2K) ID#320108:
Solar Maximum 2000 and Planetary Alignments

The year 2000 arrives near a solar maximum, that time in the 11-year sunspot cycle when there is a preponderance of solar activity -- solar flares, prominences, coronal holes, an intensification of the solar wind, and an increase in the number and size of sunspots. The peaks in the sunspot cycle have indeed proven to be times of accelerated Earth change, and intensified weather. The previous solar maximum around 1990 was memorialized by the vicious Loma Prieta Earthquake in San Francisco, devastating hurricanes Iniki on Kauai and Andrew in Florida, unprecedented flooding of the Mississippi River delta, the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo, among much other heightened activity. Eleven years earlier, the preceding solar maximum again coincided with the furious eruption of Mount Saint Helens, hurricane Ewa on Kauai, the most severe weather of the century in Northern California, the Midwest, and the Southern US, devastating storms throughout Europe, and a 400 percent increase in overall seismic activity on the planet.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 22:30
Obsidian (Crossbow:) ID#237299:
Copyright © 1998 Obsidian/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
There are many here more qualified than I to answer you, but since there isn't a ruch to assist, I'll try.

It ( the cd ) is recognizing the existence of the windows subdirectory and/or DOS on the machine, and sub-routines into the message you got. You can *sometimes* simply delete the windows directory and it will install- but I do not recommend it as there are other refrences to 3.1 such as the autoexec.bat and others which will cause problems - not to mention the older DOS. ( if you know enough to edit your autoexec and look for refrences in system.ini- go for it )

Ideally you would have a second hard drive, format the other and install 95 on it; keeping the 3.1 on the first until you were assured it was configured correctly. Lacking this, save your files, format and start over on a clean disk. Bitter medicine, yes, especially since you obviously just got your modem and everything else set up to work on the 3.1.

Also, yes, there really should be a file called setup. Put in the CD, go to 3.1/file manager, click to the disk, expand the tree, and look. It really has to be there. Since it defaulted to the message about being a *new install only*, it had to get there through the setup file.

Finally, PLEASE talk to at least 5 others to get concurring advice before you do any of this- I'd hate to send you down the wrong path.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 22:26
wert (HOTCOPPER) ID#245136:
I'm having some problems entering Ron Gully's Hotcopper site in the land downunder; it appears the upgrade of his homepage is not functioning.
Can any of you cyberOzoid help? P.S. it is ( use to be ) a great site for Oz, PNG etc. gold discussions. Many of our Kitco buds hang out there under different handles.....tia

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 22:25
NTEOTWAWKI (@gagnrad - Global Warming, NOT!) ID#390337:
Copyright © 1998 NTEOTWAWKI/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Thanks for letting everyone know that cooler heads prevail. Dr. Gray has a better average for forcasting the number of hurricanes then we do forecasting the POG. Have a look at what Popocatepetl volcano has been doing to help cool us off. Remember the global cool down when Mt. Pinotubo blew it's stack from all that SO2? Well this one is just getting started.

The highest SO2 fluxes measured at Popocatépetl volcano are 50,000 tons/day, and the mean flux for the last four
years is nearly 10,000 tons/day. The fluxes determined from 1994 to June 1996, and from April 1997 to present do not
need revision because they were obtained with other COSPECs belonging to Arizona State University, Alaska Volcano
Observatory, Universidad de Colima, and University of Montreal or because the calculations used the new low-calibration
cell. The monitoring of SO2 fluxes at Popocatepetl volcano is routinely carried out 2-3 times a week under collaboration
between ( CENAPRED ) and the Instituto de Geofisica ( UNAM ) .

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 22:20
MoReGoLd (@Y2K NEWS JUST OUT) ID#348286:
CANADIAN RCMP have had all leave cancelled from 99/Dec
to 00/March ( Notice im not yet Y2K compliant either ) .
But seriously, this demonstrates the gravity of the situation.
Me going to buy gun, Yes?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 22:19
cherokee ( ID#288232:
Copyright © 1998 cherokee All rights reserved


the crude one is still a buy....for those who know
how to play the long term game...never was it said
oil had bottomed....or to go long on a futures dec'99 options sit quite comfortably
along with their new brothers and sisters.........

patience...and planning...just like the options on
the us$ hell of a play....puts and calls.....
and brass ba!!s....something eunuchs know not.........

deride at will....the last laugh will indeed be mine.....
as the chortle comes from afar......and carries farther.
there is no question where this one stands...

gold and crude calls are being added bi-weekly...
i pray for gold to hit 280 one more time....just
as crude dipped recently...another buying opportunity...
for me...heee.heee.heee.we'll.see.we'll.see.we'll.see.


back to your den snaggle-toothed ones..

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 22:15
MoReGoLd (@crossbow) ID#348286:
I'll take a guess, your CD is a full version, and you need an upgrade version to load from W3.1.
Not sure if you need a boot diskette to install the W95.
You could try re-booting your machine with the W95 CD loaded in the CD-Rom.

Good Luck

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 21:57
kapex (Repost from Pointcast: Check out the part about what they said a few weeks ago) ID#218252:
Copyright © 1998 kapex/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
about exposure to these hedge funds. Doesn't it make you wonder about the rest of the banking sector? JUST KINDA MAKES YOU WANT TO BE IN STOCKS RIGHT NOW, HUH!!! NOT!!

Top News/Breaking

BankAmerica President Resigns After Losses

By Kathleen Day
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 21, 1998; Page A01

The president of BankAmerica Corp., the megabank formed by the merger of Bank of America and NationsBank, tendered his resignation yesterday as securities regulators began an inquiry into whether the bank improperly withheld information from shareholders about huge potential losses stemming from its dealings with a Wall Street investment fund.

David Coulter, who was chairman of Bank of America before the merger Sept. 30 and was considered heir apparent to Hugh McColl, chairman of the newly merged company, will resign as president effective Oct. 30, BankAmerica said. He is the first senior U.S. executive to lose his job in the wake of stunning trading losses and bad loans to investment pools by the banking community.

Coulter is likely to retain his $30 million golden parachute because he is retiring rather than being fired. Company spokesman Dick Stilley would not comment on the severance package and said that both Coulter and McColl are declining requests for interviews. Under the terms of his contract, Coulter receives the severance if he resigns for good reason.

Coulter orchestrated the bank's relationship with the investment firm, D.E. Shaw & Co. of New York, which included providing a $1.4 billion unsecured loan, and publicly championed it before the markets turned south this summer.

The decision [to resign] was extremely difficult for me, both personally and professionally, Coulter said in a statement.

D.E. Shaw managed a hedge fund, a fund that caters to wealthy investors and makes money by betting on financial markets around the globe. Ever since Russia defaulted on a portion of its debt in August, financial markets have taken unexpected dives and surges, causing major losses for many traders.

Many hedge funds use computer models to predict market behavior, which led those on Wall Street to believe the trading was virtually risk-free. That illusion was shattered in recent weeks, and one fund, Long-Term Capital Management L.P., needed a $3.6 billion rescue from a consortium of banks and securities firms to avoid collapse after borrowing as much as $160 billion.

Last week, Charlotte-based BankAmerica surprised the investment community by announcing that its quarterly earnings fell 78 percent because of a $372 million charge-off for bad loans to Shaw.

In addition, the bank said it had taken possession of a $20 billion bond portfolio from Shaw to minimize losses but still faced $1 billion in additional potential losses from the firm.

( Several bank analysts said that just a few weeks earlier, the bank had said its exposure to firms such as Shaw was minimal. )

Though BankAmerica is strongly capitalized and thus the losses should not affect depositors, its stock plunged 11 percent the day of the announcement. Shareholders have filed a class action lawsuit claiming the bank knew about the potential losses in August and September but didn't divulge them until after a Sept. 24 shareholder vote on the merger.

BankAmerica shares closed yesterday up $3.18 3/4 at $56.06 1/4.

The Securities and Exchange Commission, the agency that regulates the securities industry and publicly traded companies, began an inquiry this week into whether BankAmerica failed to disclose information to investors that would have a material effect on the company's prospects, sources familiar with the investigation said.

An SEC spokesman declined to comment, saying the agency as a matter of policy doesn't confirm or deny investigations. A BankAmerica spokesman also declined to comment.

Sources said the inquiry is thus far an informal one, which means that the SEC's staff has not received what is called a formal order of investigation from the agency's five commissioners. A formal order would give the staff subpoena power to compel the company to turn over information. The sources said the SEC staff might not request a formal order if the company is cooperating or if the staff is still trying to determine if it has sufficient reason to believe the company violated securities laws.

But even an informal inquiry is serious, sources said. One source said most securities lawyers highly recommend that clients disclose in their next public filing with the SEC that they are under investigation by the agency, formally or informally.

As concerns over hedge funds increases, many banks and securities firms feel compelled to provide investors with detailed disclosures about their exposure to these unregulated investment vehicles.

The larger issue we're concerned about is the governance of hedge funds and the financial institutions that lend to them, said Howard D. Sherman, president and chief executive of Institutional Shareholder Services, a Rockville firm that advises institutional investors on how companies are run.

In BankAmerica's 1997 annual report, titled Did Your Bank Perform for You Today?, Coulter told shareholders, Management of risk . . . has to be a core competency of BankAmerica and is a key determinant of our overall financial performance.

In January, Coulter received a $4.25 million bonus for 1997 in part because of the role he played in forging the business deal with Shaw, documents filed with the SEC show.

Last week, BankAmerica officials said the company knew about the risk of losses from the company's $1.4 billion investment with Shaw as early as August. It disclosed actual losses as soon as it knew of them, they said. The officials cited a Sept. 15 announcement by the bank that it had lost $12 million under a deal with a private securities trading firm to share in its profits and losses.

At the time, the bank refused to identify the trading firm as Shaw. A bank spokesman has defended that decision as necessary. It protected the name of a client and protected the value of the securities investments that Shaw was trying to sell, the spokesman said.

In Profile

David A. Coulter

Position: President, BankAmerica; resigning effective Oct. 30

Age: 51, born in Pittsburgh

Education: Bachelor's in mathematics, master's in industrial administration, both from Carnegie Mellon University

Career highlights: Named president of BankAmerica's predecessor company ( also known as BankAmerica ) in August 1995 and CEO in January 1996; had headed the U.S. corporate and international groups unit and also had managed the bank's investment banking, trading and commercial banking businesses; joined in 1976 as a financial consultant

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 21:46
Gollum (Dollar up, Nikkei up) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 21:38
crossbow (Win 95) ID#342397:
Copyright © 1998 crossbow/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I normally just lurk here but need some help from the experts out there. I'm in San Antonio and my computers were lost in the flood last weekend. I was able to upgrade an old 486 machine from the office ( Windows 3.1 installed ) to a AMD 266 etc. for a good price. Am now up and running under 3.1 but need Win 95 to access my files. The problem is that my Windows 95 CD that came with a machine that was lost will not load onto this machine. The CD says For distribution only with a new PC on the face of it. There is no setup file on the CD at all. Pretty strange.

Any way to get around the problem Would appreciate any suggestions.



Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 21:37
Obsidian (Erle:@ your 20:14 Your far more serious than my intent.) ID#237299:
Copyright © 1998 Obsidian/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The sentence was as much a play on words as seriousness. windows= windows3.x/95/98..., get it...get it?

But since you bring it up, *who* do you propose I buy from?

Since they control 90% of the operating system market, and since by extension, 90% of the usable software is written for windows, and by further extension, the stores are stocked with mainly current versions of software, thereby forcing me to upgrade..I'd like to know your alternative?

And, Paaleeeeze..don't suggest somthing like DOS, Opera, Linux, Mac, OS/2, PCMOS etc etc.

I actually like windows, but strenuously object to being strong armed into upgrading everything every few years.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 21:37
RAN (George and Erle, When I say mafia I mean organized crime with an assumpption) ID#411271:
that former competing factions have at least temporarily agreed to act under a single head. I have no inside information this is pure speculation from circumstantial occurences. I do not believe they have any interest in governing in the new world order, they will leave front men to perform the administrative tasks, but they will assure themselves
of every monopolisitic business practice they wish. They will never be outfront and when we emerge from the darkness of Y2K the familiar though older face of Clinton will be there on the TV.
If you are making a play for the world's gold reserves ( & I mean coming after private coins et all ) where are the distinctions between
power and wealth. To me power implies a desire to bend other people
to your will and having them do your biding. I believe this is wanted only for so long as it takes to accumulate the world's gold supply. Achieve that and all you want is the power to maintain that supply.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 21:26
Tortfeasor (A joke against the gold drop.) ID#37463:
In the spirit of golf which seems to be more promising than gold tonight I post the following offering:

A couple met at Myrtle Beach and fell desperately in love.
It's only fair to warn you, Mary, he said, I'm a golf nut. I live, eat, sleep, and breath golf.
Well, Mary confessed, since you're being so honest, so will I. I'm a hooker.
I see, he said pensively. Then he smiled and said, It's probably because you're not keeping your wrists straight when you hit the ball.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 21:24
gagnrad (More on Global Warming) ID#43460:
This is cut and copied from the NCPA Policy Digest:


There will be a slight decrease in global temperatures over the
next two to four decades, says William Gray, a professor of
atmospheric science at Colorado State University and the foremost
expert on hurricanes in the United States, according to the
Competitive Enterprise Institute. Furthermore, Gray says there
will be fewer land-falling hurricanes and fewer El Nino events.

Speaking at an October 9 briefing for the media and congressional
staff, Gray criticized the climate models that forecast global

o Modeling has been a great success forecasting weather for
five to 10 days into the future, says Gray; however,
because of changing wind patterns, the predictive power of
models plummets a few days out.

o Small modeling errors either in the measurements or
physics grow over time and begin increasing nonlinearly,
so the model blows up on you.

o And most importantly, the models do not correctly allow
for water vapor feedback, which accounts for 85 percent to
90 percent of the warming predicted.

For instance, the well-known climate modeler James Hansen assumes
upper level humidity goes up 50 percent to 60 percent, whereas
Gray says that as carbon dioxide in the atmosphere increases,
there is slight reduction in water vapor to balance it.

Some experts say increased hurricane activity will result from
global warming; but Gray says hurricane activity follows a
natural 20-to-40-year cycle correlated to changes in ocean
currents. From 1947 to 1960, there were 14 land-falling storms,
but from 1960 to 1988, there were only two. Changes in ocean
current, in turn, are caused by changes in the salinity of the
Earth's most important ocean current, known as the thermohaline

Source: Global Warming/Hurricane Link Debunked, Cooler Heads
( newsletter ) , October 14, 1998, Competitive Enterprise Institute,
1001 Connecticut Avenue, N.W., Suite 12560, Washington, D.C.
20036, ( 202 ) 231-1010.

For NCPA's Global Warming Hotline go to

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 21:24
Reify (Just a chartist) ID#413109:
Copyright © 1998 Reify/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
But FWIW, I've followed several commondities, not in any
but watching, and I like what I see in the following:
Oats, crude-oil, silver, gold, platinum, soy. My guess
would be next week, on any backoff, in the grains especially,
could be a very nice entry point.

If anyone could give me a stock or two, that is a play in
the oats and other grains, please email names.

Also for John Disney, what SA company, would be the best platinum

For those that missed the boat, on CRK when Mike Sheller recently
recommended it, you may still have a chance, on any back off below
5, to buy into this beauty, which could get to 12-15 by the spring,

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 21:20
Copyright © 1998 RB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
A new survey from CIO Magazine, a publication for chief information officers, chief
executives and vice presidents of large corporations, shows some concern among U.S.
business leaders that when the clock turns over to Jan. 1, 2000
Of 330 executives surveyed, 56% said they believed the millennium bug would not be
fixed in time, while a handful seemed to be planning for something more drastic.

In fact, 10% said they planned to stockpile canned goods, 11% were buying
generators and wood stoves, and 13% were upgrading personal security with alarm
systems, fencing and firearms.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 21:16
Tortfeasor (Senator Dominici) ID#37463:
Copyright © 1998 Tortfeasor/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I went to a Rotary meeting today at which Senator Pete Dominici was supposed to have spoken. Because of the delay getting the budget passed however he sent his budget staff chief ( I think his name is Steve Bell ) . Bell gave a a very honest and direct talk on the state of the economy and the fall of the hedge fund. He predicts the market is going to be very turbulent for the next two or three years and sort of suggested conservative stocks and interest bearing investments. He believes that social security and medicare may be saved if the projections pan out but frankly does not believe that they will. He painted a somewhat grim but realistic picture. The only thing he did not do was recommend gold. He intimated that if the head of the hedge fund, who Bell considers a brilliant stategist, fell on hard times the average invester may be dead meat.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 20:58
George (Ran- Erle) ID#433172:
Ran- Seems logical to me that power is the goal of governments or individuals, not gold. Gold is only a means to power, not an end to itself. Powere is the true coin of the realm.

Erle- Good idea to buy gold from those guys...but do they read thier mail to find customers or is it already a done deal?

Kitco still working good for me.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 20:50
Lou_Jan (Orca, your 19:39 post) ID#320136:
Fascinating and spine-chilling... excellent read
indeed!! Thanks so much for this informative

By the way, Kitco is getting slower to load, once
again. Is it just me or are others experiencing
the same old problem?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 20:33
ERLE (Gianni Dioro) ID#190411: will give you an idea of my mafia.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 20:26
Gianni Dioro (RAN - Mafia) ID#384350:
When you speak of the Mafia which one do you mean? The Jesuits ( Vatican ) , The Queen, The international bankers, or the New York City Italian types?

Mozel has had a couple post today concerning organised crime and the mafia.

And yes we would like to know who is on the other side of the gold sales. It does appear that gold is moving from weak to stronger hands.

I ask you if you owned a central bank and had a responsibility to use the gold you have in reserves to fight a losing battle, wouldn't you try to get the gold out of the bank vaults and into your private vault somewhere else?

How would you do this?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 20:14
ERLE (Obsidian, and Gianni Dioro) ID#190411:
Obsidian, you have a choice whether or not you commerce with Microsoft, they don't hang around with guns drawn, like the taxman.

Johnny Gold, I just posted two more e-mails to the Argentine CB. This isn't a joke. I truly would like to buy some from them.
$100,000,000. gets it all according to the story, so, I'll have to set my sights lower.
But, I am proposing a buy of enough size that they would be better off selling to me rather than selling for melt.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 20:09
Gollum (Something seems wrong with this picture) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 20:09
PMF (@SDRer - Kairos) ID#224363:
After 15 minutes of poking around Kairos...My stream-of-conscious analysis says it is either an advertisement for Oracle ( a new database ) or for Iridium ( Satellite Communications ) .

By the way…I never said that my analysis was logical.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 20:07
Gollum (And now....the football carry trade) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 20:00
Bully Beef (I suspect also it will be the release of a book.) ID#260119:
Kairos.That is.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 20:00
Gollum (Chicago board of trade and bond volatility) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 20:00
RAN (oris Much of my knowledge of Clintons connections to drug money) ID#411271:
the mafia, and russia come from an article by James Dale Davidson in his June publication of The Strategic Investor. He also has ties to china thru Riady etc. If I knew how to post from scanned material I would do so with the entire article.
I have no idea who the top people in organized crime would be, but then that is just how they would wanrt it.
As for future actions I think they have governments primed to do their dirty work rounding upprisoners , anarchist and dissidents who will really be people opposed to their will of one world rule post Y2K.
And I think since Gold is their primary goal it will be kept at prices easy to accumulate at all costs.
What I would like to see is some others considering or interpreting recent and future events in light of the possibility that no economic actions are going to be held accountable post 1/01/2000. I mean why else is there still a consideration of using ss funds in the the equity mkts?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:55
Gianni Dioro (Erle - Argentinian Sale) ID#384350:
Good one!

And when they say it's not for public sale, then we can raise hell, asking to whom they are selling it and at what price.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:55
Gollum (Hedge fund straddle) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:54
Obsidian (Erle:) ID#237299:
The absolute protection racket is Micro$soft:

They deliberately break your windows, then force you to buy new windows from them, and promptly proceed to break them again. ;- (

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:51
Gollum (Frown. Maybe this will work better) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:47
ERLE (RAN and haulpak) ID#190411:
I wrote to the CB of Argentina to ask them if they will sell me some of the gold that they have decided to unload.
I have not as yet received a reply, but I will post the news if it is appropriate.

RAN, I am not involved in organized crime, except for paying protection to the USG.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:46
larryn (DABCHICK, your 13:34 about CBs) ID#319242:
Copyright © 1998 larryn/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Central banks allow a government to create paper assets out of air and are essential for the growth of govts. To give up CB's, a govt would have to go thru an economic/political revolution brought about by the 'people', meaning a democracy, or something close, following an economic disaster/depression.

Letting smaller banks issue currency backed by whatever ( gold? ) would require a higher authority worldwide to enforce currency issues, since the market would be too widespread to react quickly on a single, small currency without causing wild fluctuations. This higher authority would have to be something like a world authority ( read govt ) .

The example given was about Scottish banks issuing currency in the British Isles is not feasible over the entire globe.

Central banks are here to stay, and we must live with what we get. Besides, that's what will eventually cause gold to skyrocket.

I enjoy your inputs, keep them coming.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:44
oris (Mike Sheller) ID#238422:
Brother Mike, it's just about time for your promised
$5 rise in POG. Pickle is waiting to be eaten any minute
now...still no signal from you...Do it, please!

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:44
Gollum (Use of brain for risk management) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:41
RAN (haulpak not speaking as one who knows but I believe that is something) ID#411271:
goldbugs hold as a hoped for postulate. I would like to know if its is even knowable who buys when CBs sells, and if they are boullion dealers
who are they, how are they licensed if at all, who regulates or watches over their activities if at all etc. etc.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:40
oris (RAN) ID#238422:
Very interesting on the subject of gold and mafia.
What about role of Kosa Nosrta ( spelling? ) ...any thoughts
on how they plan to act in the future? Also, who is the
main mafia leader in the world, if you could name this
person...In regard to Bill Clinton as a member of Russian
mafia - I have some doubts, but if you could provide details,
it may change my point of view. Thank you.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:39
ERLE (Mole) ID#190411:
Center for Libertarian Studies
851 Burlway, Suite 202
Burlingame, CA 94010
RRR is published by Burt Blumert who also runs a coin business.
It never mentions coins, or is used in any way to promote his business.
Subscription is $49/12 issues, although, it is much cheaper if it is tied to a small purchase.
Burt Blumert has done a lot to help the old libertarian cause, for many years. He, BTW, is a reputable dealer.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:39
ORCA (A message most GOLDBUGS and readers at KITCO will understand...) ID#231337:
Copyright © 1998 ORCA/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I recently received the following article, which does summarize, in somewhat blunt language, the events of the last 6 and perhaps the last 60 years. It is worthy of a careful read, and each who read it may draw their own conclusions. Sorry, but I can only submit it in its expanded form.

BACKGROUND: - Anne Williamson, is a New York-based writer who recently authored a hard-hitting new book, CONTAGION: How America Betrayed Russia, to be published soon by Farrar, Straus and Giroux. Ms. Williamson has covered Russia since 1987 for a myriad of U.S. publications, ranging from the Wall Street Journal to the SPY magazine.



by Anne Williamson

NEW YORK - The world's financial elite, now milling about at the International Monetary Fund ( IMF ) and World Bank Annual Meetings in Washington, are unhappy players in a drama whose theme is a lost empire. Not an empire in the sense of ancient Rome, but rather the collapsing American empire of finance capitalism, whose front-line soldiers were equipped not with helmets and rifles, but with Brooks Brothers suits and US fiat dollars.

Though the expansion of NATO will insure a future abundance of overpriced toilet seats, the costs of maintaining the US military are today rivalled by the sums needed for the publicly-financed multibillion dollar bailouts of entire countries on the hook to US global banks and high-flying investors. But don't blame the banks or the investors, they're just team players. The bailouts are intended to preserve the bloated power and hubris of the U.S. federal government, particularly the executive branch.

When libertarians say that government produces nothing, they make a grave error. Government produces one thing in abundance - our money. Unsurprisingly, US paper fiat dollars have no intrinsic value and circulate only by faith and by edict. Consequently, the dollar in a baby boomer's pocket is worth but the penny that was in his grandfather's purse less than a century ago. But granddad's penny was one hundredth of a gold-backed dollar's value, while today's dollar is the product of a government-operated pyramid scheme. Once the state slipped the golden handcuffs of budgetary discipline through the Federal Reserve System, it gained the ability to create unlimited debt, thereby claiming for itself what before had been the purview of tyrants - the ability to debase the currency. It is the slow leaching of value from the US dollar, not the far lesser sums raised by direct taxation, which has enabled the political class to purchase votes for its re-election and to further degrade the citizenry with socialist schemes that penetrate every nook and cranny of American life.

Any pyramid scheme remains viable only so long as its base continues to expand and it is that fact which has driven US foreign policy for much of the past century. Since politicians and investment bankers both have an interest in promoting deficits and in forcing taxpayers to redeem government debt, they were quick to come to terms on the advantages of underwriting foreign debt along with new markets and natural resources from abroad. Taxpayer-subsidized globalism then is not a new phenomenon, but has only reached its most recent apogee under the guiding hand of the

overreaching Clinton Administration.

Once the easy money common to presidential election cycles began pumping into the economy in the spring of 1995, it wasn't long before asset inflation hit US corporate share valuations. Throughout 1995 and 1996, the money supply kept rising, and along with it mutual fund holder's paper wealth and Bill Clinton's public approval ratings. Attracted by the double-digit yields found in risky, unregulated environments abroad, the banks - given the election year liquidity the Fed wished to export - lent unwisely and to excess.

The moral hazard the 1995 $40 billion-bailout of Mexico unleashed ( the debt was refinanced, not repaid, with additional IMF lending and proceeds from eurobond sales in 1996 ) led to a tripling of international capital flows. Investors took greater and greater risks in the belief that the new paradigm promised taxpayer-provided redemption, if necessary. The consequence of all those dollars frolicking in exotic locales is a $141 billion bailout for Asia, more than $20 billion for Russia in 1998 alone, a possible $30 billion for Brazil and thereafter, most likely, Mexico again.

The Clinton administrations attempt to socialize the risk of private investment with public funds now threatens a global meltdown. Whatever cure is devised, it is sure to further indirectly the degradation of individual citizens independence and prosperity. It is one more irony of the post-cold war environment that ambitious American policy makers, who were so busy 'reforming' Russia in the most appallingly cavalier and self-serving fashion, failed to honour the lesson Russia has to teach, i.e. liberty and empire do not cohabit.

The 1930s were the last era in which the international political and financial elite sought advantage through control of the global economy. What economists call hot money raced from one nation to the next throughout that era, leaving a trail of competitive currency devaluation in its wake. Six decades ago, as nation after nation was humbled by and strangled with the manipulations of the financial world's insiders, history saw fit to serve up Adolph Hitler.

A world war and a score of years later, the Allies established the IMF as a prophylactic money bag to prevent destabilizing trade imbalances and therefore, they thought, a repetition of the preceding decade's nightmare. Yet over half a century later, the IMF, the World Bank and their similarly US-controlled spawn - the IFC, the six regional development banks and the EBRD - have become 800-pound gorillas of economic distortion and, over time, of pillage which unchecked will guarantee extensive international conflict and a broadly-based anti-Americanism.

The new paradigm economy concocted by the Harvard-connected Clinton Administration appointees in the US Treasury, was designed to extend the federal government's meddling hand world-wide through its control of the multilateral and bilateral public lenders, enabling government a free ride on the back of a restructured U.S. economy grown vigorous and ever more innovative on account of the benefits the Reagan era's low taxation, moderate inflation, reduced regulation and expanding world trade had delivered. The overall scheme worked as follows: Sell assistance programs on an alleged free market and humanitarian basis by awarding government grants to those academics who can be relied upon to supply the intellectual camouflage politicians and journalists then repeat ad nausea to a distracted public, move the IMF and the World Bank to target, induce target to raise taxes, fine tune target central banking operations, encourage borrowing and debt creation through the target's government and its national banks, allowing IMF lending to pay yields if necessary; induce target to privatize national property while building a flimsy, artificial infrastructure for an equities market good enough to attract high risk foreign investors. Once the target nation's government flounders, step back and watch speculators assert discipline through a run on the target's currency. The subsequent devaluation delivers, in turn, a flood of cheap imports to American manufacturers and producers.

The finishing touch on the swindle is to confiscate more money from G-7 citizens ( the lion's share from Americans ) to pay for what is said to be an essential IMF bailout; thereby allowing Uncle Sam's IMF minions to entrench themselves more deeply in the target's government. Taxes are raised, the population struggles beneath indebtedness, government funding demands and the inevitable domestic inflation a devaluation delivers.

Western neo-colonialists then bully the target over its rapidly compounding debt in order to extract yet more property. Once successful, the world's insiders then turn around and deliver cheap shares from privatization and initial public offerings into the maw of US mutual funds and portfolio investors. US taxpayers get hit coming ( foreign aid ) and going ( bailouts ) and innocent foreigners property is finagled away either from, or on account of, inattentive and corrupt leaderships. The big winners are the world's increasingly corrupt and cosy governing class, international bureaucracies and global banks.

Yet what America has wrought across much of the post-Cold War landscape is a moral, political and financial abomination based on fraud, theft and deceit. In Russia the results of the Clinton administration's policies are the perpetuation of the longest depression of the 20th century in what is increasingly an unpoliced deadly weapons dump, the biggest swindle of national property since Vladimir Lenin muscled the country early in the century and the discrediting of the ideas of free markets and democracy. In Asia, hundreds of millions too have been ruined, riots enliven Jakarta's street life while Japan continues to stew in its own inscrutable juices. Just offstage, Eastern Europe and Latin America wait to ascend the devaluation gallows.

But as the old saying has it, what goes around comes around. All those dollars the Fed printed to get Bill Clinton re-elected, and in return for Alan Greenspan's third appointment as central bank chief, are now returning to the United States in the form of manufactured goods and commodities with which U.S. producers cannot compete on price. Corporate profits will decline as a consequence, and share prices of all but premiere multinational corporations will follow suit. Alas, those Americans up to their necks in credit card debt will be the next class of debtors to be rolled, an event for which Congress has prepared by tightening bankruptcy procedures. Credit will dry up, government receipts will dwindle, the national debt will skyrocket and unemployment will increase. Eventually the government will inflate its way out of its accumulated debt.

And if the Year 2000 alarms regarding a potential world-wide computer meltdown are accurate, then the international public and private financiers decades-long experiment with paper fiat currencies may well come a cropper, leaving the world to ride a roller-coaster of misery. No wonder the bankers and the policy makers in Washington are so glum these days.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:38
Obsidian (SDRer:) ID#237299:
I visited the Kairos site. As you said, beautifully presented, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what their selling- unless they've also published a book, available through ( guess whoooo ) Amazon dot con.

The last link in the page, that article by Vannevar Bush, July 1945 contained interest. After I sloged through his quaint predictions of the future, I was surprised to see an amazingly accurate description of hypertext. Hard to stay with it that long. My vote; their selling a book.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:37
RAN (Gollum, SDRer-- Regarding the kairos sight, after reading the clues) ID#411271:
I think on 11/25/98 they will be revealing notions that are even better explained in Bentov's Stalking the Wild Pendulum which ( thru some very
beautiful deductive reasoning that takes full advantage of new quantum physics ) promotes the possibilty of time travel through meditation and bilocation as well. This ties in best with the assertions of clue #3.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:36
haulpak (@RAN) ID#393147:
I have heard that CB gold sales are to other CB's ( one country buys another's gold ) . In that case it would be just as fair to describe recent transactions as CB PURCHASES!

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:26
Mole (@Donald/Fed President) ID#34883:
I'll 2nd that, some days reads like the last page of Human Action...
Now if we could only get some currencies linked to gold, maybe $1.00 = 0.888671 [.999 fine].

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:21
RAN (Gianni Dioro) ID#411271:
My speculations begin with the question of who is buying when the central banks are selling? I've read that they sell to boullion dealers and I am

guessing that organized crime interests have positioned themselves to appear as legitimate boullion dealers. Further I am presuming organized crime has long since discovered this as a money laundering scheme.

If just the drug cartels have a centralized organization we are talking about the largest money interest on the planet. I am further assuming that organized crime has become increasinging sophisticated in the ways of corporate culture and finance and now has a heavy appetite

for the acquisition of gold.

One of the reasons for my suspicions of the mafia is based on statements made by John Davidson in his monthly publication, The Strategic Investor where he claims Russia has long been corrupted by the influence of the mafia, and that Bill Clinton while he was still a student became privy to and enlisted in their ranks while on an extended

tour of Russia when he was in College.

It is further my speculation that it is the desire of organized crime to bring the world to a one world government, with a single bank and currency based on gold, and they want to be the primary holders of gold so they are accumulating at depressed prices.

It may be be that the mafia is not the party looking to be the dominant force in a one world government. But whomever else it may be

I think they are the world's wealthiest. ( I just happen to think that would be the mafia or organized crime ) .

Lastly and very impoertantly I believe the forces wishing to see

a one world government are planning to take advantage of Y2K chaos to establish first worldwide martial law and then their own world government. I believe in the potential that Y2K has been a planned event

just for the above stated purpose ( which is another reason I believe the mafia is the entity behind it because they are a generational or on-going interest ) .

I think WJC is a lackey for these forces and that his actions and the extent of coperation he has received from the FBI & IRS illustrate the extensiveness of people in position. I believe he knows he has the final out from impeachment by simply maintaining until 1/01/2000 , because soon after that martial law will be declared. That is why he had to win the presidency at all costs.

The implications of this assumed hypothesis to the markets are that the indexes will be maintained at levels sufficient to assure a strong dollar and a weakened POG as the accumulation of Gold is a primary


I am being quick with this and not breaking it down into smaller pieces too well. I've spoken about this to some of my students ( I teach

2 classes at a Vocational Tech. college ) and some of my christian fundamentalist came up with this 666 x 3 = 1998 & 7 years of peace,

( WJC 1993-2000 ) followed by 7 years of famine ( post Y2K chaos ) .

One more thing to add. Some have said Y2K will be a self fulfilling prophecy ( personally I think it will do its own number without pere-event hysteria necessary to help it ) but I also think the forces of one world government will see to it that we lose the power grid

wether the millenium bug does it or not as it is essential to the declaratrion of martial law.

For now I will leave out all the evidence of the plans laid and made for martial law.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:20
Donald (Fed President sounds pretty gloomy about the economic future of the world.) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:16
Donald (@Kitco) ID#26793:
XAU/Spot Ratio = .246. The 233 day moving average is .247

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:15
Mole (@Przytula) ID#34883:

Maybe that is better, hey how about those pork bellies?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:14
Donald (@Kitco) ID#26793:
Dow/Gold Ratio = 28.83. The 233 day moving average is 28.77 and we are above it for the first time in 37 trading days.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 19:10
TheMissingLink (Job cuts from hedge fund losses) ID#373403:
Bankers Trust 1,500, Merrill Lynch 3,400, CitiGroup 8,000, etc....

How do they cut their workforces so severely and still provide the same services? Since the CEO's will obviously not take any paycuts, maybe they will put in a few extra hours to do these peoples work?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 18:53
JimX67 (The Big Bad Wolf) ID#238468:
Selby : your 13:32 is G R E A T ! ! !

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 18:47
Mole (@Przytula) ID#34883:
quote site:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 18:41
Mole (@ERLE) ID#34883:
re:Rothbard-Rockwell Report, no , how do I go about subscribing to it? Am gonna read Mr. Jefferson re your suggestion. Familiar with our 3rd President's writings but have not read much of the author you refer too.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 18:39
Przytula () ID#227290:
Anybody know where I can get free commodity option quotes?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 18:36
SDRer (Silverbaron--yet another Kairos wrinkle) ID#93127:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Riffling through the Kairos site 'questions', I had a feeling of familiarity: …someone ask questions like this in a business setting, who? I asked myself. And the name popped to mind-Steve Jobs ( Apple ) .

This is the sort of approach he has used before: the first Mac, the first Next, and another that slips my mind. So some Apple of the Universe Project ( perhaps Y2K related? ) .

Think I'll integrate my first impression with the Apple theory, mix in
an Asian spice and maybe I'll have a Fuji Apple, green yet blushing! Wonderful to interface with a functioning mind! Thank you for providing one. {:- ) )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 18:27
Gollum (So if the Fed eased because of that, then....) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 18:24
ERLE (big Mole) ID#190411:
Do you subscribe to Rothbard-Rockwell Report?
If not, you should read it. Paleolibertarian; good stuff.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 18:23
Gianni Dioro (RAN) ID#384350:
The principal holders of gold in the world are people like the Rothschilds, Warburgs, Morgans, Rockefellers, QE2 and her family etc.

Gold is no longer widely circulated as currency. It went from paper backed by gold ( gold stayed in the vaults ) to paper not backed by anything at all.

These people aren't going to give up their gold. They may sell some here and there to keep the paper game/world stability in line, but even then I would think they would conspire on how to get back what little they sell.

Your 9:26 post has so many angles that it is hard to respond to. Maybe you could break it up into smaller more specific questions in order to get more responses.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 18:17
Gianni Dioro (J Disney) ID#384350:
Nope, never been to the Dark Continent.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 18:11
Gollum (@SDRer ) ID#43349:
perhaps the Chinese chracters for the word is truth ?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 18:07
Mole (no gold but on topic) ID#34883:
1. In an otherwise confused essay in the Wall Street Journal today ( October
21, 1998 ) , Christopher Wood of Santander Investment writes that: The Asian
crisis is not caused by specific factors, such as corruption or cronyism,
cited by most of the press and the financial chattering classes who assemble
at annual International Monetary Fund/World Bank jamborees.... Indeed it is
the oldest story in capitalism. As students of the Austrian school of
economics will understand, credit inflations always breed credit

2. On the same page, journalist James Bovard debunks the myth that
Republican Congress scraped government intervention in agriculture with its
1996 Freedom to Farm bill:

Nothing better illustrates the loss of spine among Republican politicians
than the various farm bailouts Congress has enacted since July, capped off
by this week's budget bill. Agricultural subsidies--supposedly in
decline--are skyrocketing. Farmers will likely get over $15 billion in
federal handouts in the period around the November election. Direct handouts
to farmers in 1998 could be more than double the level of 1995.

Without the 1996 law, farm subsidies would have fallen to their lowest
levels in decades, thanks to historically high crop prices. Instead,
subsidized farmers received more than three times as much in cash handouts
over 1996 and 1997 than they would have received under the previous
five-year farm bill. The Des Moines Register reports that wheat farmers got
50 times more in subsidies for their 1996 crop than they would have gotten
under the previous law.

( Incidentally, at the time of the bill's passage, Mises Institute president
Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr., wrote in the Los Angeles Times [April 9, 1996]
that Hillary Rodham Clinton should have called her health bill 'Freedom to
Heal'. Then Congress might have passed it as restoring the free market in
medicine. If you don't believe such a trick would have worked, take a look
at the 'Freedom to Farm' bill that just sailed into law... This farm bill is
typical of a Congress that can't bring itself to cut a dime of federal
spending, yet passes reams of 'revolutionary' laws promising to cut, slash,
abolish, and otherwise establish a libertarian heaven on Earth--sometime in
the next millennium.... Crop prices are at a 10-year high, and under the
current subsidy formula, payments would be low. So by merest happenstance,
this bill changes the price-based system into a flat subsidy. )

3. Finally, some sensible comments on Amartya Sen, this year's winner of the
Nobel Prize in economics, courtesy of Austrian economic journalist Gene
Epstein, writing in Barron's ( October 19, 1998 ) . The entire piece is
accessible through, but only for subscribers.
Below are some excerpts ( though the entire piece is worth reading ) .

Based on a review of four books of his that I got from my local Borders
( two collections, two full-length studies ) I see scant evidence of the
brilliance that so impressed the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences and far
more of the mind-rot that is so characteristic of academic economists....

Sen's myopic approach places him squarely in the academic mainstream....
What undermines so much of Sen's work is the fetish for math-as-method that
is born of the mainstream's pathetic desire to ape the physical sciences.

Your typical economist assumes such absurdities as 'no uncertainty' in
markets, even though uncertainty is any market's middle name, and
'well-behaved utility and production functions' ( read: unchanging consumer
tastes and production processes ) , even though such good behavior is the rare
exception rather than the rule -- and he assumes so for only one reason:
Because that way, he gets to use a lot of math. Try asking him to make
realistic assumptions, and he's forced to use words, which means he might
lose the mantle of 'scientist.'

And the point is, once this dreadful intellectual process is set in motion,
he falls off a cliff. When you start imagining that in some deep,
theoretical sense nothing ever does change in the economy -- where, to top
things off, labor actually can be homogenous, meaning that one worker's
skills are the same as another'sthen the appeal of central planning under
socialism really does become valid. Now that all those inconvenient problems
that capitalism is uniquely able to deal with have been brushed aside, you
can concentrate on what top-down control does best, like distribute income
more fairly.

In that regard, I hasten to add that it's unfair to single out Sen. When
you consider the history of our nearly total misunderstanding of what was
happening in socialist economies around the world -- or recall the mindless
parroting of socialist 'growth rates,' which our pundits found so
intimidating -- you wonder just where mainstream economists were at the
time. Answer: Intellectually out-to-lunch, consuming all those equations...

And even regarding his actual analysis of famines, it's hard to completely
trust his judgment. By solely grinding the socialist axe of access to supply
over supply availability, he gives the latter issue a short shrift that is

For instance, he writes sweepingly that the food security of people in the
Western capitalist economies 'is not the result of any guarantee that the
market or profit-maximization has provided, but rather due to the social
security the state has offered.'

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 17:57
gagnrad (SDRer, interesting conjecture from your SA news.) ID#43460:
I'll be watching the prices of SA shares relative to NA with that in mind these next few months.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 17:54
Silverbaron (Oro) ID#288295:

It's the Republic of Kyrgystan.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 17:51
Silverbaron (Oro) ID#288295:
I don't remember....but take a look at their site to find out:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 17:50
Mr. Mick (Moze, is that you? I thought you were going to jail......) ID#345321:
what happened? you off the hook?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 17:48
Oro (ccj - silverbaron, jack) ID#71231:
who owns other 2/3 of mine?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 17:32
Silverbaron (Jack @ Cameco ( CCJ or CCO )) ID#290456:

Bought some today; toxic spills and all. ( ;^ ) )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 17:19
Jack (Kumtor produces millionth ounce) ID#254288:

Cameco has 1/3 interest in mine located in Kahzahistan at 4000 meters elevation. Gold grades look
simular to Lihir's. Accidental spill of Cyanide ( ? ) from truck into river could have effected its share value, along with gold and uranium prices.

Cameco is worlds #1 uranium producer and some swear that uranium use will skyrocket.

If so, Cameco reminds me of Potash Corp, who lingered for years before blast-off.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 17:19
moa (Stocks still selling well above PIGS level...before rate cut.) ID#269128:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 17:15
SDRer (WOZA--) ID#286249:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

White Paper takes aim at apartheid in mining and mineral rights.
Pretoria - The government unveiled a new minerals and mining policy on Tuesday aimed at ending white dominance of the industry and opening the sector up to foreign investment. [Link to paper on-site]

Cherokee@wheat.crops China and now SA, do we have a problem?
Second official wheat crop estimate drops.
Pretoria - The National Crop Estimates Committee said on yesterday that the 1998/99 wheat crop was estimated at 1.469 million tonnes versus last month's prediction of 1.515 million tonnes.

The previous season's wheat harvest was 2.284 million tonnes, the committee said in its latest report.


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 17:15
Speed Bump (Another 2 cents worth) ID#27998:

I agree with you that the next wave down in the Dow will be wicked.

Assuming that we are in a bear market, and assuming that the recent dip was the 1st phase of the bear market, we are now setting up for the 2nd phase. If I am not mistaken, Dow Theory states that the 2nd phase down is usually vicious.

This rally may have to become a bit more convincing, IMO, before we enter the 2nd phase down. Perhaps 1 more sharp rally to give the all clear signal to the bulls.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 17:06
Envy (@Obsidian) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
My strategy worked out well through a series of intuitive gambles based on articles I read on this forum, this forum being the forum that is golden ( and amazingly wise if you listen to the right people ) . Started by buying in June/July against specific equities that were flying high, but that had lagged the rest of the high flyers, things like Xerox and Coke, etc. Held those until the first lashing by the bear took full effect ( the big drop day ) , sold that afternoon. Immediately moved all my profits in against financials when they rallied for a day, then they dropped big again on the whip-lash from the mini-tumble days earlier. Sold all that, waited in cash until we rallied for a while, then bought against the high flyers that had lead the pack, the last ones that would be hit by a down-turn in the market ( did that because of advice I received on this forum of course ) , bought against the MSFT's and DELL's of the world, then technologies took a serious hit and I got back into cash and started putting bids out there against things like PFE, MSFT, etc. The bids have all been picked up now during the rally, and I'm just waiting for the other side of it to see what happens. I sell on days when my options are worth a bunch, that's the best thing I can really say about it - when everybody wants out of something, I sell the options. Most of my timing has been right on, in no small part because of Sharefin's swing charts, I'd say that's one of my biggest indicators. I've been buying strictly far out-of-the-money PUT options, no calls. I'd buy calls but I don't have that much mox because I think the trend is down. I can't wait to see what happens after this rally. As for strike prices, I choose based on the stocks five year graph, trying to get a price at around January 96 levels, or about half the stocks price, and I go for January expiration, because who can really say if and/or when all this stuff comes to pass. The gambling money I've multipled with PUT options isn't anything compared to the money I saved myself when I got out of equities in June, and for that, I have this forum to thank.


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:51
moa ( many ounces does the gardner get paid?) ID#269128:
Just to get an idea of wage expectations.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:49
Obsidian (Envy: Care to share your process?) ID#237299:
Were you buying specific equity puts or index puts? Did you hold till expiration or sell on the downswing? Close to the money or high leverage gambles? Far in time or close?

As for myself, I was ( am ) index puts. Initially close in time- now much farther out. Fairly close to the money. This last rally took away my breath. ( but not my money yet since they have a lot of age left ) Ah, that's life in Vegas. ;- )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:48
Jack (Here's the full text of Yahoo News Alert about Republic Nat'l Bank) ID#254288:

This NY bullion bank took a hit on Russian investments.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:47
robnoel (SOUTH AFRICA......Die Beloved Country........sorry JD ) ID#410165:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:45
John Disney (on second thought ..) ID#24135:
cage rattler..
dont tell these guys too much ...
next thing you know they'll all
be here .. trying to take my
gardener .. running up the price
of wine .. lets cool it ..

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:38
DEJ (We may still have a crash; the game's not over yet.) ID#270236:
Copyright © 1998 DEJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The Fed cut the discount rate 50 basis points after the 1929 crash
and the market recouped 50% of its losses. The rally lasted until April 1930. From that point
the market went straight down until June 1932 when the Dow bottomed
at about 38--a 90% drop from the peak on September 3, 1929 of 383.
The Fed cut rates several more times between April 1930 and June 1932
and none of the cuts had any effect. The Fed also bought T-Bills and
discounted a bundle of acceptances. The monetary base grew 4% per year
through this period while M-1 fell 33% because of the destruction of
checkable deposits caused by bank failures.

Bottom line is we may be in that corrective phase and the next move
down could be real nasty if the Fed's rate moves don't restore growth

My thinking is the Fed's moves won't work because the U.S. economy is
already at full capacity and monetary stimulus only works when there
is unused capacity. Also the additional demand created by the Fed's
actions will probably only pull in more imports and the last thing is
that the velocity of circulation is declining which destroys the effectiveness of an addition to the money supply.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:37
John Disney (tell me about it ..) ID#24135:
Copyright © 1998 John Disney/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
cage rattler ..
.. imagine someone telling me NOW
that RSA would be oh so bad like
Rhodesia etc etc ... Imagine what
they were telling me 10 YEARS AGO
when I left Europe to come here.
.. Everyone else seemed to be
leaving .. I was just getting here.
Sanctions had been on for maybe a
year .. the Fire next time covers
on good old TIME magazine ..
... The secret of life is discover
exactly what conventional wisdom
IS .. then do the opposite.. like
buying calls when the Kitcoistas
say buy puts ..
... see little gritty .. you're
not ALL BAD .. no such thing as a
bad trader .. I just gotta callum
the way I seeum.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:36
moa (Horrible tragedy in Nigeria...has analogy in today's stock market) ID#269128:
...many millions were engulfed in a derivatives fireball while trying to scoop up seemingly free money issuing from a broken conduit in the world's financial system, the NYSE....

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:32
Envy (@LGB) ID#219363:
Umm, I dunno about everybody else who has been buying PUT options against the equities, but I'm up over 800 percent and am pretty happy with it. *grin*. Any day I can put a dollar into something and get eight dollars back, I'm pretty excited. Thanks Peutz ( though I have to admit I didn't buy options based on your projections, we just happened to be thinking along the same lines ) .

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:29
ChasAbar (Skip,) ID#287358:
Copyright © 1998 ChasAbar/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The reason, IMO, that 90% silver coins are going up is the same as the
reason all US Gold coins are skyrocketing, and the same reason that
bullion coin sales are up. Owning *physical* precious metals is very comforting in times of worry. Included in that worry is Y2K. Physical is at bargain prices when purchased in US$. Your old U.S. silver dollars aren't worth just $6.00 any more. And, by the way, have you tried to buy *any* year 1900 silver dollars lately?

In further response to your question, as far as I know 90% silver junk silver coin prices are not being manipulated. The market reflects *real* supply and demand.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:24
moa (Aussie CBanker...figures out why his gold is gone...duh!) ID#269128:
Copyright © 1998 moa/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Wednesday October 21, 2:09 am Eastern Time

RBA governor says hedge funds should be supervised

SYDNEY, Oct 21 ( Reuters ) - Reserve Bank of Australia governor Ian Macfarlane said on Wednesday
that hedge funds should be supervised.

``If like banks they are important enough to have systemic consequences it is hard to see why they
should escape supervision of some form or other,'' Macfarlane told the International Conference of
Banking Supervisors.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:23
COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for Oct. 21

Gold 876,309 + 92,250 troy ounces
Silver 73,450,573 - 162,296 troy ounces
Copper 68,692 + 437 short tons

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:22
JTF (Crashing up) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
LGB: Right now the markets are crashing up! Even if we are in a bear market, which I think we still are -- just the WJC business will do it -- it is not going to be going down steadily. Powerful rallies are very likely.

Those more average type retirement account owners are still buying -- why invest your money in anything else than equities? They have been going up as long as many can remember!

Many of us at Kitco are getting more nimble -- learning from our trader friends. We are at least protecting our assets for the big time gold bull to come -- probably a few years from now. Should have plenty of more opportunities to learn how the equities markets work before then -- real time. We just have to be nimble enough to avoid the Pings.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:22
2BR02B? (ASB) ID#266105:

According to a San Francisco Chronicle headline spotted on
the newstand B of A ex-prez gets 100 million golden handshake.
Like, thanks for the mammaries.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:18
moa (Salomon etc lossed $1.3 bill on bond trading last year...ouch. ) ID#269128:
Merge and Purge.

Salomon Smith Barney, the result of a 1997 merger between retail brokerage Smith Barney and bond trading power house Salomon Brothers,
posted a $324.9 million loss after $1.3 billion in bond trading losses. The results compared with a profit of $508.4 million in the year-earlier

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:15
TheMissingLink (SDR) ID#373403:
Copyright © 1998 TheMissingLink/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
However, it-like any movement that has wide credence and need of deep pockets-can be put to other uses with the dedicated ones being none the wiser.

Kind of like government? Political parties? Only because environmentalists have not shared in the awesome power of government can one fear a rise of this unknown force. Kind of like democrats calling Perot unstable and people buying it when Clinton is just as nuts. Perot is just an unkown quantity.

I am an environmentalist of sorts and I can tell you that our own government, proponent of environmental laws as it is, is the worst polluter in the world. Through the DoD and DOE, more environmental damage has been done to America than any other single polluter.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:14
gwyz (Isure...) ID#432130:
Thanks for that Bema post. I needed that shot in the arm.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:13
Speed Bump (New Kid on Block) ID#27998:
Thought I'd offer my 2 cents worth...

Looking at the XAU chart, it would seem likely that one more

dip is likely for this correction to look aesthetically pleasing.

FWIW, A dip to 65 or a bit lower would give the correction a nice 1, 2, 3

appearance. Time wise the XAU should complete it's correction about the middle of next week, IMHO. A nice wave up should follow ( :^ ) )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:13
moa (BankAmerica President resigns....bad hedge fund loans....) ID#269128:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:12
Oro (LGB Silvers) ID#71231:
Bought some SSRIF and CDE as they went down on the silver move downwards somewhat out of proportion. I got SSRIF at a good price but CDE was a bust at 6.5. Both seemed to be good buys on silver moving over 5 - they suddenly make money rather than lose it.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:10
moa (SEC Chairman...more hedge fund rescues on the way....) ID#269128:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:09
LGB (@ Realistic.... Market crash continues on track....) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
That earlier repost was one of the best comebacks I've ever seen! A classic from a class act.

And speaking of reposts....aren't we about 3 months overdue for the August crash to 3000? Uh I mean the early September crash? Uhh uh I mean the September Eclipse crash? uh I mean the Post eclipse crash? Uhummm that is I mean the first week of October crash? Well... which slipped of course to the crash that would culmintae in the all out bloodletting during the week ending 16th of October

Hmmm, guess we'll have to wait till Halloween now....and then a whole 9 months maybe after that.

Sure glad I didn't buy S&P Puts all those times I saw them recommended here at Kitco. come you never complain about Newsletter writing charlatans posing as investment advisors, recommending S&P Puts just before each explosive UP move in the stock market?

Inquiring minds want to know.....

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:09
DEJ (Deeps earnings.) ID#270236:
Anybody know when Drooy reports its earnings? The way
the stock's been dropping, perhaps I missed it.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:08
JTF (AG) ID#254321:
Obsidian: Perhaps AG will be resigning soon, so he no longer cares what the 'big CB boys' say anymore. If RR and AG both resign, how many competent individuals will WJC have left in his super ( underline super ) lame duck presidency?

I gather that RR is hanging in there because of his concerns about the economy and his support of the Democratic party -- not because of WJC. I don't think AG is so political in his outlook -- but I'll bet he'd like to step down before the market tanks.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:08
Cage Rattler (South Africa) ID#33184:
For the average upper income white South African not much has changed that affects his/her lifestyle ( this is a generalisation! )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:04
John Disney (Really now ..) ID#24135:
Gianni ..
1. dont plan to sell house in Andorra.
2. You are very wrong .. you say the
same things that I heard 20 years ago.
RSA is present much LESS socialist
and Gobmint controlled and regulated
than under the Nats.. but I forgive
you Gianni .. have you ever BEEN

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:04
SDRer (Re-Greens, Greenpeace, The Movement) ID#290172:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Was asked to do a scenario some time ago, and settled on the above listed as the best building block to world power for anyone looking for a base. Capacity to absorb awesome amounts of money, sacred status turns asides invasive questions, high positives across global pops, an all round winner.

Please please do not misunderstand. I, like everyone else, care about the planet which is my home. I, like everyone else, know that there are many committed and dedicated persons in the environmental movement.
However, it-like any movement that has wide credence and need of deep pockets-can be put to other uses with the dedicated ones being none the wiser.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:02
moa (Cage rattler...) ID#269128:
Does this mean the HKMA may start buying NASDAQ stocks to prop it up also?!

Better still the PPT will join forces with HKMA to keep all markets orderly....what a huge CON.....hahahahahahaha

This is what will ultimately drive people out of the market for a good many years, is the corrupt manipulation that goes with speculative excesses.

Gold sits shining and waits patiently for the decaying rotten corpses to turn to dust and be blown away by the winds of change and time.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 16:01
LGB (@ Silver STandard UP 24%) ID#269409:
Hmmm, Silver Standard Reserve ( ssrif ) up 24% today on no new news? What do they know....

Could silver be poising for a move? Maybe time to dump some of that dog SSC and move into ssrif.....

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:52
SDRer (Gollum--Well, this is really QUITE pathetic…) ID#290172:

But the gilt/golden Chinese characters appear, to an untutored eye, to
be quite like the ideogram for true/truth and the second resembles the ideogram for plant, growth, life, work…

But each ideogram is MORE than the root. Each has additional 'strokes'/ densities that no doubt add richness and meaning…

Doesn't tell us a great deal more does it…Good idea about trying to draw it; went to a software program and tried. Oh. {:- ( (

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:44
JTF (Hewlett Packard price breakout) ID#254321:
All: Anyone notice that HWP is taking off? Looks like the Japanese rally is infectious. Could be we are in for a nice one week to one month rally.

Bought some HWP call options with funny money.

If this rally continues, the pattern seems to be that gold equities will start to rise as it peters out.

We could have a nice gold equities bottom fairly soon -- for those who have some cash left.

Why is it that I am afraid I will turn around and find that I am shadowed by a bigger wave than the one I am riding on -- and it is about to break?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:43
Cage Rattler (Nasdaq may team up with Hong Kong stock market ) ID#33184:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:42
Isure (BGO- BEMA- GOLD) ID#421269:
Just spoke to John Anderson with BGO and he said that Bema should be profitable this quarter,

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:42
Obsidian (JTF: I dunno...) ID#237299:
Doing something like that *without* the Rothschilds, the Morgans et al being on board? Nay... The surprise and dissent seems a bit feigned. I think the nod was given a long time ago to the succssor and we're seeing the interregnum in fact, if not in title.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:37
Gianni Dioro (J Disney - RSA) ID#384350:
It appears though to me that the RSA is following in the footsteps of Rhodesia. Impossible demands led to Boycott then to concession and now to ANC rule.

The wealth of South Africa has long been coveted by the World's Elite. Look at how the Brits plundered So. Africa at the turn of this century. IMO RSA will get a Mugabe of its own.

I wouldn't sell your house in the Pyrennees just yet.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:29
Oro (Any news on Dayton?) ID#71231:
It's back down to 7/16 - 1/2 down 1/8 this week.

Anyone have negative news about it?

If not, I will add to my position.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:18
Jack (Aurizon Mines) ID#254288:

From SI Aurizon thread reference is made to report by Scotia Capital about this well regarded producer.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:11
robnoel (Numismatics continue to move higher.......MS 63 Saints up $15.00 MS 64 up $30.00) ID#410165:
since July 24th 63's up $110.00 64's up $195.00....mmmmmmmmmmm

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:10
Jack (Viceroy Resource) ID#254288:

New CFO, formerly of TVX. Some notes about
Argentine drill program.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:10
Oro (A pattern?) ID#71231:
Am I seeing a corresponding counter reaction in the senior stock averages ( through the futures market ) to each dip in the $$.

Anybody else see this?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:09
Gold Dancer (Dull) ID#430221:
Copyright © 1998 Gold Dancer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Haven't posted in a while. Just a lot of sideways action wearing
out the gold bulls and drawing in the stock bulls by a big ralley.

Bear market ralleys are better that the real thing, that is why they are
so easy to spot.

I have to laugh at the US and Rubin/Greenspan going around the world
trying to tell everyone else what to do and then doing the oposite.

I have the definite impression that Clinton is trying to save himself
by manipulating the economy. He might be able to do this for a while, but
will make it just drag on longer. But maybe that is what they want to

Gold? Slowly moving up is all I can say at this point. Time for a
vacation. This could go in for a long time.

Thanks, GD

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:08
Jack (Viceroy Resource) ID#254288:

New CFO, formerly of TVX. Some notes about Argentine drill program.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:07
mozel (@Greens) ID#153110:
The green movement began in national socialist Germany. The Nazis were nature and back to nature worshippers like the greens. Hitler and Pol Pot had much in common.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:05
Jack (Richmont Mines) ID#254288:

Another production record, earnings streak continues. Nine months CF at $0.88 Can

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 15:03
Gollum (@SDRer ) ID#35571:
Oh well. Perhaps you could draw or sketch them either with some sort of graphics software or just on a piece of paper and then scan it?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:58
chas (Oro yourm13:29) ID#147201:
Suits me. I ran into a snag. I'll respond later. Thanx, Charlie

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:55
SDRer (Gollum you are Awesome!) ID#290172:
Unhappily this page won't scan {:- ( ( ( But many thanks for the best offer I've had this week {:- )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:52
JTF (Bank of New York) ID#254321:
Obsidian: Should have read your post more carefully. Perhaps AG has stepped on some US toes as well when he lowered rates -- the

Rothschilds, the Morgans, etc were not consulted on both sides of the Atlantic? Cracks developing in the international Reserve Bank facade? Signs of internal strife?

Perhaps there are not enough lifeboats for everyone.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:43
SDRer (Silverbaron #5 and) ID#290172:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

#6 One has felt that the Greens are a political/emotional/quasi-religious force analogous to the initial Catholic Church. Having firmly planted themselves in Brussels and now a nascent power in Germany, this may be the beginning of a bid for real Global Political Presence.

Last year, when discussing a coming global non-hegemonic currency, I did suggest that the Greens would be tossed the Tobin Tax to bring them on board. So, currency controls via the Tobin Tax ( or a variation thereof ) presented in a We're just one little world in a cosmic jungle, so let's work together to save our world --on and on ad infinitum--brought to us on Thanksgiving Day. Hopefully ( ? ) , something of that ilk.

or they may not need the serendip seti program after all… {:- ) )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:43
LGB (Israel bailing from Peace talks) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Israel is apparently preparing to walk out of the Peace talks. It seems that Madeline ( Where's the buffet at? ) Albright ( dim ) .... made a number of promises as to what the U.S. would do in order to co-erce a Clinton face saving agreement...but NOW the U.S. faction is happily trying to back away and renig on each and every provision promised.

Neat. Typical. Clintonesque and Albrightesque.

Hey Clinton, when you're through trying to appear presidential by trying to co-erce other countries into giving away their land....why don't you start thinking about such minor trivialities as your total capitulation to Saddam Hussein ( also via that embarrasment Albrite/dim )

Not to mention your complete innefectiveness re Bosnia, Sudan, Russia, Indonesia, or any other area of world interest where the U.S. might have made a positive impact. And don't forget to keep warning the Pentagon to keep the troops in line by threatening court martial if any should deign to despise you as the scum sucking, draft dodging, lying, sociopathic maggot you are.

Peace talks shot due to U.S. lying shennanigans...Oh well. look on the Bright side. Madeline ( where am I? ) Alldim can get back to her Buffet line now, and enjoy those perks of the politically big & important. So glad Hillary chose her for this important post.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:40
JTF (Bank of England upset) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Obsidian: Interesting. Perhaps AG is now a 'rogue' because he lowered interest rates without asking for the advice of his colleagues in the banking business. Of course, in 1925 the directors of the Banks of England,Germany and ( I think ) France asked the US FED to lower rates. Then it was to encourage gold to flow back to Europe -- to jump start their ( already ) depressed economies.

Looks like AG is not following the script, whatever it is. Bad timing for the Bank of England? I guess we need to ask ourselves -- why? England can't lower rates fast enough? And, how about Germany? Not a good time to expand the money supply in Europe when all the exchange rates are locked in for the Euro launch. But then -- it does not seem that inflation is an intrinsic problem in Europe right now. Potential devaluations are another matter, however -- hard when much is locked in. Does that mean that the EMU must buy and sell something other than EUROs to keep the exchange rate constant? How about gold? ( Heresy!! )

Or -- could be the Bank of England didn't have a change to sell their US dollars before the exchange rate plummeted.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:31
Mooney* (Money the Easy Way!) ID#350194:
Cage Rattler - That is very similar to the way Glenn suggested ( yesterday evening ) to make money trading the range in Gold.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:31
gunrunner (Help is available, RJ.) ID#354133:

We do care and are really worried about you... Clearly demonstrated symptoms on Kitco: 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 8. Maybe more that we don't know about... Please seek help.

Fly, you mocking birds! Silver and platinum actually UP! ( $5 and a nickel, respectively )

Golf down : (

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:27
Mooney* (@Glenn and arby) ID#350194:
Thanks for feedback Glenn, and welcome arby - please bring us more insights from the TSE floor from time to time!

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:27
Gollum (@SDRer ) ID#35571:
If you can scan them in or something, I can tell you what the Chines charaters mean.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:23
RAN (Gianni Dioro, Pete, Highrise-300, I've caught some of your threads on the 300) ID#371229:
could you check out my 10/20-9:26 post and let me know if we are on the page? TIA

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:21
moa (Dabchick...nice find....the central banks are the PROBLEM.) ID#269128:
they are one of the few monopolistic systems left in a basically free market world. the present upheavals in world finances is the beginning of their demise as the global market weeds out weak protected institutions, like central banks. Their only natural replacement will be a host of smaller banks each providing their own commodity backed a natural progression, the writing is on the wall and gold will be central.

I, for one, will not care about the demise of central banks.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:20
RAN (@Gianni Diorio, Pete, Highrise-300, I've caught some of your threads on) ID#371229:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:19
Cage Rattler (Making money the easy way ...) ID#33184:
Anyone notice how the pound/dollar spot exchange rate has pivoted around 1.70 for almost two weeks now? Buying or selling pounds at either end of the range has returned very good profits ...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:17
TheMissingLink (Having our cake and eating it too!) ID#373403:
Copyright © 1998 TheMissingLink/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
President Clinton on 10/6/98:

Leaders need to find a way to ``contain boom-bust cycle on a global scale, enabling capital to flow freely'' without the social consequences such wild swings on global markets bring, he said.

``The central economic challenge we face is to harness the positive power of an open international economy while avoiding the cycle of boom and bust,'' Clinton said in extolling the plan.


The President of the New York Federal Reserve William McDonough said on Wednesday:

``We have to be very careful that the pendulum of risk taking, which had gone wildly to the side of excessive risk taking, does not go equally wildly and perhaps equally damagingly and dangerously to the other extreme, to the extreme of such risk aversion that perfectly worthy borrowers and perfectly worthy counterparties are being spurned,'' he said.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:08
Oro (Another gold dump?) ID#71231:
down 0.70

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:05
John Disney (its all in the ore ..) ID#24135:
Copyright © 1998 John Disney/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
For Gianni d'oro ..
the way it works is the particular mix of metals
in the ore .. russian ore is relatively rich in
palladium .. lean in platinum .. RSA ore from the
Merensky reef is rich in Platinum..

.. regarding Hoskins book or article .. it only
shows how extremely hard it is to foresee future
events .. in 1985 I would probably have agreed with
him .. in 1988 I was leaving Europe to come here ..
convinced it was all bullsh!t .. ie no bloodbath ..
no red takeover .. no nothing except a very cheap and
pleasant place to live.. dont know if I'd go so far
as to call it bliss ( see below ) ..

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 14:01
John Disney ( Very pleased ..) ID#24135:
little rocketman..

not to have surprised you ..

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:52
LGB (@ JD) ID#269409:
Re your latest...I guess this is what I should have expected...from someone who believes Mozel's pitch in the MoonWalk Fraud. Ahhh, but at least you DO live in bliss if my cliche book here is accurate....

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:37
Obsidian (Anybody take notice of Donald's 5:00 AM post) ID#237299:
Copyright © 1998 Obsidian/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I think it is most important.

The Bank of England now critical of Greenspan's rate cut?

First there were the rumors of dissent among the other Governors of the various Reserve Banks. Then the statements that the Germans disagreed. And now this. We would be given the impression that Greenspan is some wild rogue that took capricious action. If I remember their charter correctly, the Governor of the New York branch has the final say in these matters- Greenspan is the figurehead- much like Clinton is the puppet before the cameras.

I believe they are creating plausable reasons for his sudden resignation.
It's absurd to think that he would do this without everybody being on board ship in advance- *and* their public responses well rehearsed in advance.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:34
Dabchick (To All : This is long, but well worth a read, I think.) ID#258195:
Copyright © 1998 Dabchick/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
GODFATHERS OF EASY MONEY - A personal view by GEORGE SELGIN. Published in the Financial Times today 21st October 1998.
Sub-Heading : Central Banks claim to be bastions in defence of their currencies. They have more often been a cause of the crises which they then take credit for resolving.
The Author: GEORGE SELGIN is Associate Professor at the University of Georgia, Athens and adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute, Washington DC
Note by Dabchick. The references to the importance of gold in this piece should appeal to us all.

In their struggle to preserve the value of their nations' currencies, finance ministers in Russia and several Asian countries are doing something that would never have occurred to them a decade ago. They are thinking of replacing central banks with currency boards. These are institutions without discretionary control over money, whose currency issues must be fully backed by foreign currency reserves. Central Banks, it seems, are in danger of losing their status as symbols of monetary sophistication.
It is about time. Central Banks have long enjoyed a reputation they do not deserve. Like mafia Godfathers, they command respect mainly because of the damage they are capable of inflictiong, and are praised for protecting the clients they themselves threaten ( albeit not always deliberately ) . Thus Central Banks enjoy the status of inflation fighters, as if there such a thing as a serious bout of inflation not driven by central-bank expansion. They gladly take credit for preventing banking panics even though the worst such cases ( including the present financial crisis ) have been caused in part by often justified fears that central bankers themselves were about to renege on their promises.
Contrast the historicalperformance of central banking systems with those of other monetary arrangements ( including currency boards and early systems with competing banks of issue ) , and it is clear that central banks rate poorly at promoting low inflation, exchange rate stability, open exchange markets, and economic growth.
Indeed, the only clear advantage central banks have routinely enjoyed over rival arrangements is fiscal: they can print money for their sponsoring governments to spend. Yet central banking was not always a sacred cow. Adam Smith , for one, thought that money, like other goods, was best supplied competitively, with governments playing only a minor role. Smith had good reason for thinking this way: the Scottish monetary system he observed operated on a competitive basis, and was one of the world's most successful. Before 1845, any Scottish banking firm could issue as many notes as it wished, providing that it honoured its promise to redeem the notes in gold on demand. Although individual Scottish banks failed , Scottish banknotes were almost always redeemed at full value, and Scotland never suffered a serious banking panic.
The secret to Scotland's success, Smith understood, was the rivalry among competing banks of issue. In this competitive arrangement,market forces handed swift punishment to any bank that supplied more currency than its clients were willing to hold. In England, by contrast, the Bank of England enjoyed many special privileges, acquired over the years in return for financial favors offered to the Crown. By the early 1800's its only rivals in the currency were small, privately-owned banks, that were not allowed to issue notes within 65 miles of the City of London and that treated Bank of England notes as practically the equivalent of gold. The Bank thus gained control of the entire English money stock : when it expanded , others went along ; when it contracted, money became tight all around.
Yet the Bank long continued to behave as a private firm, maximising profits, oblivious to its role in generating booms and busts. In 1873, Walter Bagehot, then editor of The Economist, explained in his book Lombard Street why the Bank's first duty should be to avoid financial crises, even if at the expense of its bottom line. He also set out the means of achieving this. Bagehot much preferred the decentralised Scottish system, but hoped his prescription for a central bank would make the best of a bad thing.
Contrary to Bagehot's intentions, Lombard Street came to be regarded as proof of the need for privileged central banks. At the beginning of the 20th century one country after another adopted versions of England's monopolistic set-up. Then, in 1922, an international conference in Genoa resolved that every nation shoudl have a central bank. Bagehot, who died in 1877, must have been spinning in his grave.
The record of central banks since the Genoa conference has been anything but reassuring. Central Bankers repeatedly broke the rules of the gold standard during the 1920's, setting the stage for the Great Depression. They then made gold a scapegoat for their own mistaken policies, and proceeded one after another to stop payments. The gold standard gave way to a gold-backed standard and, eventually, to no international standard at all, with each government issuing its own irredeemable paper.
Rapid inflation, once a relatively rare, war-related event, became common world-wide, even in peacetime. Several central banks, including the German Bundesbank and the US Federal Reserve, have of course, won reputations in recent decades for issuing relatively sound monies, while others have relied ( with sharply mixed results ) on pegged exchange rates to import stability from their more successful counterparts. But such success stories should be seen for what they are : instances of relatively successful management of an inherantly flawed system.
Central banking works, more or less, only in unusually prudent hands, and sometimes not even then. Indeed, a wrong move or utterance from even the most responsible central banker may be enough to send his nation's economy into a tailspin. That is the very definition of a dangerous institution. Am I proposing that we abolish central banks, not only in Russia and parts of Asia, but everywhere else as well? Bagehot faced a similar question in 1873, and replied thart a proposal to do away with the Bank of England would be as futile as proposing an end to the British monarchy. Of course the monarchy is no longer the hallowed institution it was then. At a minimum, it is time we started treating central banks with equal irreverence.
Some may think central banks as necessary to avoid or contain financial crises like those in Russia or Asia today. But these crises themselves reflect the failure of central banking : Russian and Asian central banks promised to stabilise the foreign exchange values of their currencies, but then broke their promises, imposing large losses on other financial firms. ( Currency boards, like that of Hongkong are much better at preserving fixed exchange rates ) .
Finally, central banks often create unsustainable financial booms through over-expansionary moetary policies, setting the stage for later deflationary crises. The present Japanese slump is an important example. As for the Fed's involvement in rescuing LTCM, the US hedge fund, the deal was meant to protect,not the US monetary system, but to give short-run support to the prices of certain assets. The deal was at best an arbitrary favouritism towards certain large financial firms and at worst a cause of greater moral hazard and instability in the US financial system. End.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:33
Gianni Dioro (Pete, Highrise - 300) ID#384350:
Highrise - My local bank is on the list as well. I suppose it mostly means that the members of the 300 own most of the shares, which is pretty much known since the 300 includes most of the banking elite. I guess we shouldn't be speaking politics/gold with our bankers either.

Pete - people can ignore it and deride it if they want. Most people don't want to know the truth. They can't cope with it.

Look at the sham that is the War on Drugs. Coleman's book illuminates that sham even naming names and banks involved in the laundering drug money of the world's elite.

The nonbelievers and the ignorant will likely perish in the cities when the Y2K plague sets in.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:32
Gianni Dioro (J Disney - RSA & Russia) ID#384350:
Thanks for the clarification. As you can see I'm no expert on Platinum - I had read a few different articles and felt there was some link between the 2. Whether it was a strong link, and whether it is material or not, I don't really know.

Hoskins says in his book, War Cycles Peace Cycles ( 1985 )

The USSR...owe the international banks billions upon billions. They too have no way to pay principal and interest. The main thing she produces is oil and she needs that for herself.

The Soviets produce Chromium but its price had been held low by Rhodesia, the world's largest producer.

A plan was engineered where Western Govts made impossible demands on Rhodesia, and when Rhodesia balked, she was boycotted leaving only one customer for Chromium - The Soviets. The USSR bought the Rhodesian Chromium and sold it Double the price to the West. The Rhodesian deal saved the Soviet economy and that of the West. Russia grasped at this last financial straw and was again able to pay the 11th dollar to her creditors.

However, the Rhodesian deal fell through when Rhodesians did the unexpected - they gave in to the impossible demands made against them. When this happened the reason for the boycott of Rhodesian chromium vanished. Rhodesia was again allowed to sell directly to the West, and the Soviet's income vanished! Now she must find a new source of income to pay her usurers.

Hoskins says that if the USSR bankrupts, many banks in Europe will also bankrupt. This will cause many banks of the Federal Reserve to bankrupt. The Federal Reserve has a great stake in finding a source of income for the USSR. Without income, the Soviets can't pay interest on their debts.

South Africa is one of the last places left in the world which is independent and has great natural wealth. It has been assumed by many that this country will be converted into the next source of Soviet income. The acquisition of South Africa by the USSR would give them the natural resources to mortgage and sell to the West for generations.

-written 1985

This is pretty Huge considering that the Soviets have pretty much defaulted, and though are trying to work out a way to eventually pay foreign loans, it seems pretty futile to me. The sword of Damocles hangs heavy over the Soviets, and then that has repercussions to the West. Western Central Banks seem to be trying to stop any of its banks from defaulting. Maybe this is why for example the German Govt underwrote ( insured ) 10's of Billion Dollars worth of loans that private banks made to Russia.

-War Cycles Peace Cycles is published by Virginia Publishing Co.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:32
Selby (The Big Bad Wolf) ID#286230:
JimX67 If the BBW followed his own advice he is too busy counting his money to bother with Kitco.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:29
Cage Rattler (The Omega Agency) ID#33184:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:29
Oro (chas - lets keep the discussion open) ID#71231:
Copyright © 1998 Oro/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Numbers from Japan, US mint, posted here before bear out the poppular demand. Neighbors and friends have asked me about gold, so I told them of my analysis - the major factors of which were the following:

1. Gold short position on the order of half the G7 central bank gold hoard.

2. Large and increasing trade deficit is threatening the dollar. I asked a couple of folks where their car, china, clothes, toys for grandkids, nswers were asia, latin america, canada on 50% of the items.

3. Large leverage in the financial markets in particular against the Yen - which will have to unwind ( now in the process ) .

4. Pop interest in gold for trade in the event of a problematic Y2K transition. - This was the most common issue raised until the Aug 31 crash. Since then it has mooved to bank exposure to derivatives etc..
Some started pulling out small portions of their savings.

5. News about LTCM and the FED printing money at a rate that has not been seen since 87. Most knew about it and were worried.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:28
Johan (Fort Knox, Golden Lead? Hoax Gold?) ID#253287:
Copyright © 1998 Johan/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Every American who love USA should worry the gold in Knox. Are gold leased out? Are they coated Golden Lead blicks?

Our government subsidies farmers huge $ to produce cheaper meats&grains. PPT spend huge $ to support meats&grains futures markets. Government build&rent barns for storing those bought foods. Now, there are so much foods that they donate to Russia and N.korea for free.

Plus huge trade deficit, should not $ devalue? But why not? I wonder if they use up most Knox gold to oppress POG, to keep $ strong.

Daniel chapter 11:24 prophesied concerning the last government of the greatest kingdom:
The government shall enter peaceably even upon the treasure of gold places of the people, and he shall do that his fathers have not dared to do, to empty their real gold treasure.
He shall scatter their richs and foods among other nations, as free prey and spoil for their enemies.
He shall deceive his own people, even for a time.

God help USA, please!

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:25
Silverbaron (SDRer - which is most likely?) ID#288466:
1. An alien invasion occurs
2. The Hall of Records under the Sphinx is opened
3. The antichrist takes over the world
4. The Earth enters another parallel dimension
5. They're selling a book

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:21
chas (LGB re coin sales) ID#147201:
Much obliged for these figures. It looks like the smaller coins are lager bt amount rather than by onces.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:19
Cage Rattler (Kairos - Dr Vannevar Bush) ID#33184:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:13
John Disney (bully for you ..) ID#24135:
little gritty bum..
I still believe you guilty of
stereotypical thinkimg vis-a-vis
N and A..
Say what you like .. cuts no ice
with me .. as to getting to like
me .. well now .. THAT makes me
feel uneasy.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:12
SDRer (Silverbaron-Yes, that sums up my reaction too!) ID#286249:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Yet, it is strangely beautiful; and it asks questions that we have been pondering in our search for honest money, yes?

The Chinese characters do not appear on the website, but are apparent on the full page blurb.

( 1 ) org is a non-profit designation, so may we assume it is not a promo of some sort
( 2 ) darn clever, because word-of-mouth is an unbeatable way of disseminating information
( 3 ) will attempt to ascertain what Chinese characters say
( 4 ) what did you make of the hints? Is this a Greenpeace-sort-of-thingy? Or something e*l*s*e?
( 5 ) did this appear in other papers?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:03
Pete (RJ a.k.a JR) ID#222231:
You are very astute in bringing out the best in people. How's PT & SI doing?

Ciao Piasano,


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 13:01
Cyclist (XAU ) ID#339274:
FWIW XAU breaking out on the upside,NEM 23 3/16 flying.
Plat up 5 big ones.Today going to be another great day

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:57
LGB (@ CHas...Gold coin sales) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The actual numbers bear out the anecdotal info. It appears so far that 1998 will be the strngest year to date of Gold American Eagle sales since the program began... ( with the possible exception of the first year..but probablt surpassing even that )

September gold bullion sales total 233,000 ounces in coins

Uncirculated gold American Eagle bullion coins are still hot among collectors and investors, with 233,000 ounces
sold by the United States Mint during September.

September’s sales carried calendar year 1998’s total gold sales to 1,246,500 ounces, and program totals since
October 1986 to 8,615,000 ounces.

Sales of 1-ounce silver American Eagles during September reached 450,000 ounces, boosting annual sales to
2,685,000 ounces, and program totals to 72,151,500. Platinum sales in September topped out at 17,600 ounces,
pushing sales for the first nine months of 1998 to 105,700 ounces, and program totals since September 1997 to
179,050 ounces.

During September 1998, the Mint sold 188,500 of the 1-ounce gold coins, 26,000 of the half-ounce coins, 50,000
of the quarter-ounce coins and 190,000 of the tenth-ounce gold coins.

Platinum sales in September reached 85,500 of the 1-ounce coins, 24,200 of the half-ounce coins, 19,600 of the
quarter-ounce coins and 32,000 of the tenth-ounce coins.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:55
2BR02B? (from the bookshelf) ID#266105:

The elected politicians were hearing lots of scary talk,
not only from constituents but from respected economists.
Edward E. Yardeni of E.F. Hutton predicted a 30 percent chance
of a full-blown depression like the 1930s. If things did not
turn around by May, he warned, the odds would go to 50-50.

year: 1982

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:48
LGB (@ JD.... Stereotype THIS!) ID#269409:
Copyright © 1998 LGB/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Hey JD..just when I was startin to like you too! Now we don't want to start a RJ / Gunsack type contest here do we? You're above that my man....though we both don't shy from contentious crankyness.

Firstly I was speaking about 2 men, not two races....Arafat and Netanyahu are the gentlemen in question. You should study the two men's bio's, as I have, before you conclude that I'm casting comments casually.

As to preconceived notions and ugly American stereotypes...such assumptions can work in many ways. Let's remember, before casting such aspersians ( sic ) that Palestinians, Arabs, Israelie's, etc. are semitic peoples. Do they not both say My father Abraham? I am FAR from an anti-semite my friend. And far from a racist as well...though I'll avoid that being pretty much off limits at Kitco.

As to stereotyping.... I've spent a great deal of time in the middle East, working with both the Saudi's and the Israeli's ( Elisra ) during the years that we were helping them build and install their Electronic Countermeasure equipment on their F16 fleets. ( A different division of Loral / Lockheed Martin where I was employed at the time ) .

I've spent plenty of time working in Tel Aviv, and have spent plenty of off time visiting the West Bank and even Gaza. I know the area well. I know the two cultures well. I've met the people and spent time with them. No stereotyping is involved.

I have strong opinions on the political issues that divide the Israeli's and Palestinians. These opinions were not formed based on stereotypical assumptions. I shan't discuss those opinions here on this forum.

Peace at Kitco
( since it can't be had in the middle East )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:47
chas (Oro your 12:26) ID#147201:
I would appreciate discusing your experience in grass roots coin demand. email many thanx, Charlie

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:44
RB ( Silverbaron) ID#408170:
I prefer to say ,I live between the mountains and the beach,
since that's where I spend most of my time. Mts. this week.
Linville area. My wife says we live in the car!
No debt here, only the essentials, $, G&S, Land.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:43
Silverbaron (SDRer) ID#288466:

I visited the site you suggested......I don't get it. I wonder what's up on Nov 25th 1998? BTW, the last link in the site is by Dr. Vannevar Bush - I'm pretty sure that he was one of the original members of MJ-12 ( Majestic/Majic ) of Roswell Fame, for people who believe in that sort of thing. In all, the site gives me a creepy kind of feeling.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:34
MM (BBW) ID#350179:
= gogold? ( just another theory )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:32
mapleman (Egypt Buying Gold ?) ID#350288:

Is there someone that can tell me how many tons of gold it would take to put a 1 inch layer of gold on the capstone of the GREAT PYRAMID. Was reminded last night that the director of the Giza Plateau stated that this was something they are planning on doing.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:32
Cyclist (PLat/Gold) ID#339274:
FWIW PLAT/GOLD spread widening.Nem bought at advised timing
model 22 1/2, right now 23.I don't know the fundamentals,
only look at trading volume, timing ,and above all my wallet.: )
Have a great trading day.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:32
Skip (90% silver coins going UP, UP and AWAY...) ID#287129:
Silver is down, yet something strange is going on... The 90% silver coins ( US, pre-1964 ) are going UP! Obviously, people are buying these even in the midst of low silver prices.

Can someone explain why this is happening? Does it have something to do with the increasing concern over the Y2K bug?


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:31
Gollum (Eh?) ID#43185:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:28
Silverbaron (RB) ID#288466:

Yep....I live in Charlotte - a real boom town with mega-developments of upscale housing, two of the largest US banks headquartered here, an influx of mutual funds, pro sports teams, etc. ad nauseum. Basically it's Yuppy central, perched on the edge of maximum debt.

And it's all gonna go down with the stock market.

Are you in the vicinity?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:27
Allen(USA) (Y2000er) ID#246224:
Copyright © 1998 Allen(USA)/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Plan yer getaway, mate. I'd rather like it where its cold and snowy and a bit remote, since that makes for a pretty good defense in itself. I REALLY feel for those who will be living in temporate climates since there is NOTHING that will stop people from rambling about looking for what yer got. Aye?

If yer were a-hungered an' there were nothing but getting shot fer taken the food, what would yer mind if yer got shot to death, mate? Wouldn't be no deterent at all, would it? None. So yer better get used'ta thinking 'bout it. It'll be them er us. 'En if'n the cold can do yer some good, then use it.

Yer better get used'ta burying the dead too. There'll be plenty of em come the spring time.

I'd have that gun fer the dogs mostly though. If yer gotta choose between feedin' yer kids or the dog ( s ) , who yer gonna take for a little ride outa town, mate? Not the kids, friend. 'En if'n yer out in the counrty yer better have a few or more bullets fer the real thieves without conscience; the dog packs.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:26
Oro (Gold coin demand) ID#71231:
The grass roots level gold coin demand is very strong. People who know I trade are asking me WHEN to buy, not IF. My answer two three weeks ago was wait. Since last week, My answer has been in the next two weeks - last week and this week.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:25
JimX67 (Big Bad Wolf) ID#240331:
Does anybody here among veteran Kitcoďtes remember the Big Bad Wolf ? He was really bad, making fun of us when gold fall 3 or 5 bucks
from 400 to 395 !!! What happened to him ? Did he vanished in
outer space ? Was he ripped off by aliens ? Any idea is welcome.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:20
RB (Red Flag ) ID#408170:
A friend of mine owns an up-scale used car lot ( Mercedes, BMW )
near Charlotte NC. I called him yesterday checking on a car he was
selling for me. Sales are way down! Said he had to borrow money
for carrying cost for the first time in years. He was very uneasy.
Charlotte is a very growth oriented city. Outward signs,ok. Inward
Also, folks are asking me for info on buying Gold coins and Sil.
Antique auction sales.... G&S coins are going for more than posted
prices around here.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:10
SDRer () ID#290172:
Latest London Bullion Fixings

Gold AM Fixing ( 21 Oct 1998 ) : 174.442 Pounds Sterling
Gold AM Fixing ( 21 Oct 1998 ) : 296.900 US Dollars

Gold PM Fixing ( 21 Oct 1998 ) : 173.472 Pounds Sterling
Gold PM Fixing ( 21 Oct 1998 ) : 295.250 US Dollars

Silver Fixing ( 21 Oct 1998 ) : 2.8714 Pounds Sterling
Silver Fixing ( 21 Oct 1998 ) : 4.8900 US Dollars

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:08
Copyright © 1998 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Very compelling...


There is a full page ad ( ? ) in Wed Oct 21 1998 FT

Black page, some indistinguishable word, greenish, in the background
Bold White letters foreground, which asks

Will Western civilization succeed or fail?

In upper left hand segment, an url

And in Gold, lower left, two Chinese characters

When one visits the site, it is one of stunning beauty…take a look…

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:08
JTF (y2K addendum) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Retearivs: I agree with you that Y2K ( or any potential disaster ) is everyone's problem. Simple hoarding and hiding is not possible -- we all must shoulder some responsibility for everyone else, even for the ones who do not 'hoard'. But -- we do have to protect ourselves.

I do not know how bad the Y2K problem will be -- but I admit I am beginning to be one of the 'hoarders'. I do not feel guilty about this, because it dates back to Biblical times, and make solid sense at all times, not even for Y2K.

Just look at what is happening right now in Texas. My Y2K model is for some sort of shared responsibility in handling disasters -- as exemplified by that woman volunteer in Texas who was helping others get to safety, only to watch her own house float away. This is what it is all about -- not government handouts. We should not blame others for not preparing better for disaster -- we are partially to blame for not being more outspoken. Of course, we cannot lead everyone by the hand and force them to do what they are not ready to do -- like that old story about leading a horse to water.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 12:00
gwyz (The Bear Trap...) ID#432130: about to snap with or without bad news.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 11:40
ravenfire (banks encouraged to lend) ID#333126:

gee... i thought this only happened in Malaysia ( ok, maybe Japan too... )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 11:36
Retearivs (Fixed position, reduction of. White golf.) ID#413175:
Copyright © 1998 Retearivs/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

2000's point refreshes one made from this corner long ago. There is no escape. If things go really sour, we are all in trouble. We all live in a tight mesh. The occasional bum banging on the door in the middle of the night is not the problem. If you are still eating, it won't be long before a group arrives to find out why and to take it away from you. They will have been making a living doing just that and will know exactly how to do the job with a minimum of fuss. There will be no thin blue line around, either.

Now, does any /savant/ here have a comment about platinum's price convergence with gold? There is, to say the least, a trend. Does it correspond with the movement of the dollar? ( Yes, Bart, this is a golf list but platinum is a golf of another colour. )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 11:21
J (RJ and other high power thinkers VS looser detractors) ID#174239:
A man can be measured by the value of his posts. Somone who only says something when he has something valuable to add is orders of magnitude greater than a crazy simpleton who lashes out at what they don't understand.

Since the detractors have nothing worth listining to, the only way thier little egos can get any attention is to attack those who do get attention.

Ignore them. Only loosers take loosers seriously.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 11:20
JTF (Y2K - survival of the fittest) ID#254321:
Copyright © 1998 JTF/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
sharefin: I am amused that there is talk about the Y2K business is just talk, and will amount to nothing. It will not be as bad as some think, and more of a problem than those who think it will be nothing.

Most small competitive firms in the US ( maybe Europe? ) will be ready. But -- the more ossified corporations ( the ones at risk for falling behind during times of change ) will be in trouble.

The worst offender will be the US government -- obvious to anyone who has worked in the federal environment. Yes -- my hat is off to the branches of our government who are doing something -- like Social Security. But -- all that work by Social Security is for naught if the Federal agency who writes the paychecks is not updated as well. The IRS is behind, defense is behind, and others as well, with effective readiness dates well after y2k.

Oh Well -- Y2k is just an example of survival of the fittest, isn't it?

Lastly, I find the computerization of Europe may be more significant than y2K itself. The implementation of the EURO if it comes off well will streamline debt/financial management -- as SDRer has mentioned. Here too, the ossified ( mostly financial ) corporations are at risk to fall behind the more modern computer literate firms. Just imagine what will happen to all those stodgy banks/financial firms that are used to arranging loans and collecting on them for generations. Now they can streamline like we have in the US and specialize just in loan arrangement, as well as loan management.

And -- they can make all the mistakes we have made in the US too. 125% equity loans, loans with insufficient collateral dumped on some loan management firm thousands of miles away that cannot possibly know the local risks.

Interesting times, aren't they? I think LGB is right that the Leonid shower won't knock out all the satellites, but just one good hit is needed to knock out one satellite. And no matter what you say, you cannot honestly believe that the risk of a satellite perforation during the shower is the same as from routine space debris. That is like saying the Leonid shower will never happen.

So y2K is not really all that unique -- just another way for the Darwinian weaning process -- survival of the fittest. The problems will be greatest where they were ignored the most.

I wonder how many of those ossified government agencies we will miss anyway if they fall on their faces. I would be happy if our government just focused on national defense, and setting minimum rules of trade. Alot cheaper more efficient that way. And then hopefully we would not be so broke that we cannot do anything really important, like making cheap reliable US launch vehicles so that we do not need Chinese ones. Alot of money to be made eventually in asteriod or lunar mining, if we could just get off our rear ends.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 11:12
OLD GOLD (Mike Stewert) ID#242325:
Thanks for the post on the improving LONG-TERM technical indicators. I share your point of view. A big move up is coming. But the precise timing is very uncertain.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 11:05
Realistic (Educational reality check!) ID#410194:
Copyright © 1998 Realistic/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Crude oil prices on October 1st: $16
Started a multi-week plunge in the afternoon of October 1st.
Crude oil prices today: $13

Date: Thu Oct 01 1998 03:15
cherokee ( @....tonto.nat'l.forest......... ) ID#288232:

just for the record.....crude is a buy....
this not to bolster my current ( increasing ) some have alluded....

i ride alone against the wind, and she is my friend....
dgtrygf...and there is only one dotssm....

war...look at know the future...


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 10:59
Caper (Bully) ID#300202:
Gold even falls against our local currency-cod tongues. Chretien just doesn't get it, does he. I mean water cannon/baseball bats ( not exactly

official issue to Horsemen ) -survivalists' billy type flashlights maybe.

RCMP member McKenzie well gifted in the art of speech. He has nothing to lose-beyond retirement years. Watch for him to make blunt/revealing statements. He's a good guy-camera image does not portray though.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 10:46
Oro (GIBBOUS - Asia news blackout) ID#71231:
Copyright © 1998 Oro/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
The reason that the emerging markets are not mentioned is that their equity markets have sprung to life in a far more violent upsurge than US markets.

Like the Asian markets, most of the US advance is from short squeezes. From what I read of the behavior of bear markets, they start with the capitulation of the long term shorts in a violent upswing followed by a slide from leveraged players who lost their buyer. As the bear progresses, the most common short term trading strategy is the short position. The bear is punctuated by sharp short squeezes into which people buy - at the top of the rally.

What this market is looking like is the 1994 Korean M shape top where the short position recreated after the first top got squeezed again and was followed by the bear disbelievers. Within days of the second peak, the market returned to the sharp bear tumble.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 10:45
Fordrik (NEM going because link to new discovery in Argentina) ID#271125:
Another Junior of Vancouver ( ARP.V Argentina Gold corp ) run by a Geneva based operator called Adolf Lundin. Big gold intercept but not economic until further drilling...beware..still very early days....NEM put $5m for a look.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 10:44
cherokee ( ID#288232:
Copyright © 1998 cherokee All rights reserved


glad to see you are using your own mind for what you
post here...the material is definitely original........
but has nothing to do with original thought...............
of your own.

time to re-post others posts to bolster yourself....
i feel your pain man!! oowwwwwwwwwwww..ok for the pain.

mike have been 'rolling of late...carry on.

eb........tell ted to hurry up with his cave....willy needs
kitco to be happy...

azau........i'll be in the place that does not exist this
morning....octillio springs in chandler for
some rock and cacti soup? i'm serving...!; )


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 10:39
Year2000 (Sharefin - Thanks for posting Gary North's Y2K forecast) ID#182184:
Copyright © 1998 Year2000/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
As usual, Gary seems to have an informed opinion. The real Y2K problems are with the financial systems. So what if a few factorys close, some elevators won't run, a few doors don't open, and a few cars won't start? If we don't have banks, electricity, telephones, et. al., our entire society’s in trouble! ( If it is as bad as Gary predicts... Oh well... We all have to die of something! )

One thing’s for certain: It is certainly POSSIBLE for things to get that bad here in the USA. Just look at Russia. Just ten years ago, it was one of the strongest nations in the world! ( Anyone know what the Russians are using as barter currency, other than Rubles and dollars? Maybe we should stockpile vodka and whiskey! )

You know that the Feds will try to bail us out. They’ll start printing money like mad. The dollar will probably become worthless, so why stockpile cash?

The one simple thing that I can't figure out: What’s a person with a few assets ( and cash ) suppose to do to get prepared for this forthcoming mess? Stockpile 60 days worth of food ( then starve on day 61 ) ? Go out and buy 500 shotguns and 2000 lbs of ammo ( and keep them in the basement ) ? Buy physical gold? To whom would you sell/trade it? Unlike 150 years ago, nowadays most good old boys couldn’t be certain that it was real.

If you have a small farm, how do you keep the gangs of criminals from stealing your crops and livestock? My Dad grew up on a farm during the depression. A few times a year, they would find a cow half-slaughtered by some hungry folks from the city.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 10:34
cherokee () ID#288232:

every word worth pondering....


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 10:33
JEW (NEM) ID#25295:
Up 1/16 ?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 10:25
Cyclist (NEM) ID#339274:
FWIW NEM is taking off

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 10:21
sharefin (More from Cory) ID#284255:


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 10:18
Realistic (@skinny) ID#410194:
Regarding your opinions about Y2K that you posted last night:

I totally agree with you.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 10:17
Realistic (Gold) ID#410194:
Copyright © 1998 Realistic/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Comments this morning from Hightower Report:

GOLD: A move into new low ground for the move and the lowest price since October 6th parallels the sentiment in Japan where dealers think longs are growing impatient with gold lack of performance. Certainly the sharp decline in the Yen hit right at the hearth of some of the recent longs but we would have thought that the reduction in economic fears would have brought in some physical longs as an offset. In any regard the trade lacks enough committed players to drive gold out of a 290 to 299 range, the problem is there is 5 or 6 dollars on the downside before support is found. Some sellers think 295 support will be critical to the trade today but that sellers seem to have more control.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 10:15
Bully Beef ( gold fund just goes up and down in the same range.) ID#259282:
Gold must break out or it's dead in the water. The Pepper man is on the run. It's really the first time I've seen him this concerned.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 10:01
tolerant1 (PMF, Namaste' the last gulp of this incredible bottle of Patron Tequila to ya...) ID#31868:
a gift from the Third in the House of ARAGORN...knock on my door any day or night or perhaps in between and be welcome...TRUTH...yup...uh huh...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:59
Miro (@RJ & Gunny) ID#347457:
Hard to believe that two grown up men can act like kindergarten kids

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:58
RJ (..... Chicken Man .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Please address your complaints to Gunny.
He has been bad mouthing me in public and by e-mail for six months.
Six long months and no response from me, but now he has gone too far.
Silence does not work, he keeps up his shameful attacks.
Perhaps you can see this distinction?
He torments for six months.
I have responded for less than a week.
It would seem that this is still way out of balance, yes?

Bart has asked that this type of thing be brought to K2.
I have agreed to do so.
But this fellow continues his private vendetta on this page.
Where are the complaints for him to stop?
I only respond, I do not attack.
Six months of provocation is plenty of wait, don't you think?

If the folks around here don't like wasted bandwidth,
Tell Gunny to stop his incessant attacks.

This is no case of chicken and egg, we know who started this……
Six months ago.

Today I speak, and will no longer hold my tongue.
This is fair.


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:57
SDRer (Suspended suspense [Buenos Aires Herald-Editorial]) ID#290172:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Far more than the solidity of the banking system is at stake with the Banco Mayo even though the 11th suspension of a financial house in the last three years is already a serious test of crisis management ( and just when money markets seemed to be recovering ) . Over 3,000 jobs
in the bank and related activities are at risk and the wave of protest actions since Friday ( including strikes and occupation ) have only blocked the payment of pensions and wages otherwise permitted under the partial suspension…

The identity of these new owners has in turn political overtones. The strongest bid is coming from Citibank, both on its own account and as part of a cluster of major banks ( originally eight and now five ) . The possible revival of a Buenos Aires Provincial Bank bid thus simultaneously pits public versus private and domestic versus international as the face of the country's banking…

The plight of Banco Mayo should be no reason for panic - its assets still comfortably outweigh its debts, all those with current or deposit accounts or fixed-term deposits ( although not necessarily bondholders ) have every reason to trust both the Central Bank and the future owners while at least half and perhaps three-quarters of the workers will keep their jobs with the rest receiving full severance. Yet Banco Mayo's suspension also shows that despite the huge gains in the stability of the financial system since the tequila effect, there is plenty of room for improvement.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:56
Cyclist (2day rally) ID#339274:
FWIW The time line 07:00 hours has arrived,Buying NEM for the short

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:52
PMF (@tolerant1...Why I remember when) ID#224363:
I was a kid growing up in Rural Ontario, Canada...No cable TV just two local english TV channels and a French channel on UHF.

Used to wrap tin foil around the antenna of my black and white TV so that I could watch the late night French/European movies because I might see a breast or two.

Pretty damn funny in retrospect...One wrong move with the tin foil and boom...there goes the picture...just when it was getting interesting.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:47
SDRer (Citibank to take over Banco Mayo? [Buenos Aires]) ID#290172:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Citibank on Wednesday took a large stride towards taking over most of troubled Banco Mayo's branches after reaching an agreement with the Central Bank…

Representatives from Citibank's local subsidiary are set to fly to New York next Monday to discuss the plan to purchase 50 branches…

The doors to Mayo's various branches were on Wednesday reopened throughout the country for payment to its 30,000 pensioners. Several dozen savers joined long queues and emphatically demanded the return of their money to no avail. As yet it is unknown when the bank's clients will be given access again to their savings.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:44
Chicken man (RJ & gunny) ID#341297:
HEY you two
Will you kindly take your peeing contest somewhere else!!!!!!!!

Wake up!!! nobody...but nobody cares the least about your food throwing contest!!

My momma always said IF YOU CANT SAY SOMETHING GOOD, DONT SAY ANYTHING AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now be nice or take a hike!!!...the rest of us are sick of this..

Just a gentleman's thoughts....Chicken man..

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:44
Mike Stewart (Comedy, I don't usually do this here.) ID#270253:
Copyright © 1998 Mike Stewart/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved


Lewinsky virus..........Sucks all the memory out of your computer.
Ronald Reagan virus.............Saves your data, but forgets where it is stored.
Mike Tyson virus....................Quits after one byte.
Oprah Winfrey virus.........Your 200MB hard drive suddenly shrinks to 80MB, and then slowly expands to 300MB.
Lorena Bobbit virus.............Turns your hard disk into a 3.5 inch
Dr. Jack Kevorkian virus...Searches your hard drive for old files and
deletes them.
Ellen Degeneres virus............Your IBM suddenly claims it's a MAC
Titanic virus...........................Makes your whole computer go
Disney virus...........................Everything in the computer goes
Prozac virus................Screws up your RAM but your processor
doesn't care
Sharon Stone virus.........Makes a huge initial impact, then you forget
it's there.
Tim Allen virus.........Appears helpful, only to destroy your hard drive
upon contact.
Woody Allen virus.....Bypasses the motherboard and turns on a daughter
Saddam Hussein virus............Won't let you into any of your programs.
Tonya Harding virus...............Turns your .BAT files into lethal
Joey Buttafuoco virus..........Only attacks minor files
X-files virus...................All your Icons start shape shifting
Spice Girl virus..............Has no real function, but makes a pretty
AT&T virus..........Every 3 minutes it tells you what great service you
Arnold Schwarzenegger virus..Terminates and stays resident. It will be

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:41
sharefin (Good for a laugh.) ID#284255:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:39
tolerant1 (sharefin, Namaste'...gulp and puff to ya...shhhhhhhhh...shhhhhhhhh...during martial) ID#31868:
law when Clintler needs to call those Chinese and UN troops over here we are taking them all to the veeeeery....veeeeery....quiet...

and we are replacing Rockefeller with Rockabillies...who will know at his age after we trim the ears...veeeeery quiet....shhhhhhhhhh...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:36
mole (silver up ) ID#350145:
silver is up ..025 gold down .50. have not checked but this recent metals pattern ( last couple of weeks ) seems to be sort of a wedge. my guess it breaks up.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:35
Gollum (DOW +2) ID#43185:
And looking very weak.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:29
tolerant1 (PMF, Namaste' and a gulp and puff to ya...) ID#31868:
one roll of tin foil and your overhead satellite was useless...whew...this kitchen is getting and Bazooka Joe are running for our comforters...Sally and Bunny...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:26
sharefin (CharlieS ) ID#284255:
That article raised my eyes a bit.

Personally I think it was a pacifier.

I'd like to get the full report that this snippet came from:

Even more alarming was the
testimony of Terry Harman from Alliant Energy [western Wisconsin,
northern Illinois, eastern Iowa and southeastern Minnesota], who is
far ahead of NSP. [Note that Alliant is smaller than NSP] They have
already identified 170,000 embedded chips that need to be replaced,
which he believes comprise 98% of all the chips that need to be
replaced, and when asked about vendor supplies he responded, some of
our suppliers have told us to go away. He stated this was a VERY
serious issue.

Now this company claims it has checked 98% of it chips and identified 170,000.
I'd like to know what percentage this is?

I must have exceded it. ^o-o^

A double whammy.
First this financial fracas and then Y2k.

I think the potential for chaos is high.
How far it goes who really knows?

But definately we are living in a neural global network these days.
The interconnectedness of all these systems is enormous.

The stresses placed upon society will be enormous.
But not the end of the world.

A good time to go sailing for six months.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:24
tolerant1 (PMF...poly-morphed-fiction...) ID#31868:
Oblio has a place for you in the pointless the NSA, CIA, FBI and all those terrible people who piss in their own cereal and then complain to the rest of the world which is nothing more than the mirror of their own lives...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:23
mole (Dabchick re currremcy comparisons) ID#350145:
thanks-helpful post i have been wondering.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:22
Tortfeasor (Gold) ID#37463:
It didn't take gold long to leave its unsteady feet and to fall on its rear this morning. December down 60 cents.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:21
RJ (..... Sea Chantey .....) ID#411259:

What do you do with an angry Gunny
What do you do with a pissed off Gunny
What do you do with a whining Gunny
Early in the morning

Call him what he is and keep on going
Call him what he is so all are knowing
Call him what he is and keep on rowing
Early in the morning

Heave ho and out we throw him
Heave ho and out should go him
Heave ho and out we throw him
Early in the morning…..


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:20
Tortfeasor (Crysal Ball) ID#37463:
good one. How indeed.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:19
PMF (The things we say and do when we are bored...) ID#224363:
Good morning to North America, Good afternoon to Europe and Good Night to Asia...

I have noticed that as the markets stagnate ( especially the PM market ) , the rhetoric and shouting increases on this forum. From frustration perhaps...I think that I also have been guilty of this in the part...and for that, I apologize.

So in the best interests of everyone out there in cyberland...I hope for $300 gold followed by $315 followed by $340 ( at $340 I start to pray because at that point divine intervention will be required ) .

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:18
tolerant1 (Crystal Ball, Namaste' Gulps and Puffs to ya...heh...heh..heh...I spend my TIME) ID#31868:
with Friends and Children...laughter...Bill Gates can keep his he speaks with the absolute CRAP America flushes to D.C.

Me and Leo Kottke are pullin up modified snow peas in the backyard...

MY you and Your Lady...

Heartfelt WISHES...


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:18
Mike Stewart (Obscure Technical Stuff) ID#270253:
Copyright © 1998 Mike Stewart/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Here are some long term indicators that are turning positive for gold. They are not meant as trading indicators, just fundamentals required for any possible MAJOR move. It is a bit tedious to follow, but...

The monthly MA of gold has crossed the 12 month MA for the first time since June 96 when gold was at $385 and falling.

The ratio of the monthly average price to the yearly average price bottomed in February at .9103. Usually, bear markets end at this level or lower. A rise above 1.00 would be very encouraging. It is currently at .983 and rising.

The 220 day MA of gold is rising, not falling.

The 40 day MA is rising. The 80 day MA is rising. The 160 day MA is flat.

The slowest long term indicator is the 3 month average rising above the twelve month average. It is too early for this one to turn.

The foundation for a serious move is falling into place. The exact timing is another issue.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:13
Crystal Ball (Big Chief Forget-Me-Not) ID#287371:
Copyright © 1998 Crystal Ball/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
An Australian travel writer touring Canada was checking out of the Spokane Hilton, and as he paid his bill said to the manager, asked, By the way, what's with the Indian chief sitting in the lobby? He's been there ever since I arrived.

Oh that's 'Big Chief Forget-Me-Not', said the manager. The hotel is built on an Indian reservation, and part of the agreement is to allow the chief free use of the premises for the rest of his life. He is known as 'Big Chief Forget-me Not'because of his phenomenal memory. He is 92 and can remember the slightest detail of his life.

The travel writer took this in, and as he was waiting for his cab decided to put the chief's memory to the test.
'ello, mate! said the Aussie, receiving only a slight nod in return. What did you have for breakfast on your 21st birthday?

Eggs, was the chief's instant reply, without even looking up, and indeed the Aussie was impressed.

He went off on his travel writing itinerary, right across to the east coast and back, telling others others of Big Chief Forget-Me-Not's great memory. ( One local noted to him that How! was a more appropriate greeting for an Indian chief than '' 'ello, mate. ) On his return to the Spokane Hilton six months later, he was surprised to see 'Big Chief Forget-Me-Not' still sitting in the lobby, fully occupied with whittling away on a stick.

This time the Aussie greeted the chief with a hearty HOW !

Scrambled, said the Chief.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:13
Tortfeasor (Gunrunner and RJ) ID#37463:
You boys best kiss and make up or someone might send for William Jefferson Clinton to broker a peace accord right here in Kitco. Be nice.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:10
chas (APH re fills) ID#147201:
Can you recommend a couple of firms that can respond fast re fills. Many thanx, Charlie

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:07
Silverbaron (Personal attacks.) ID#288466:
Not interested in either point or counterpoint. I skip over them all. Have a nice day.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 09:02
RJ (..... Good Morrow Sweet Gunny .....) ID#411259:

Is anybody interested in the Gunny's continued attack?

Can we all just tell him to shut up now?

Men are men, and this abject whiner tries the patience.
Cowardly and sneaky, he hides in bushes and waits
To spring once again with full coat open, limp intellect dangling
And we now all see the true short measure of this fellow

Grow up Gunny, your hogwash does not sell here.

Indeey O

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 08:54
Dabchick (Currency changes vs US Dollar 1st Sept to 17th Oct 1998) ID#258195:
Copyright © 1998 Dabchick/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Of the fifty currencies I thought worth a look, here are the top ten gainers versus the US dollar since its peak seven weeks ago ( rounded to nearest 1% ) .
1. Indonesia +39%
2. Japan + 24%
3. South Africa +13%
4. Australia +11%
5. Thailand +11%
6. Switzerland +11%
7. Malaysia +11%
8. Poland +10%
9. Denmark +10%
10 Spain +10%

Memo: ECU + 9.25% .............SDR +6.32%

Here are the losers [ ( - ) = minus]
41, Pakistan ( - ) 0.27%
42. Turkey ( - ) 0.38%
43. Mexico ( - ) 0.66%
44. Brazil ( - ) 1.03%
45.Kazakhstan ( - ) 3.28%
46. Uganda ( - ) 5.41%
47. Zambia ( - ) 6.11%
48. Israel ( - ) 8.13%
49. Russia ( - ) 32.25%
50. Ukraine ( - ) 32.77%
Regards..............Dabchick ( E&OE )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 08:52
Fordrik (Hong Kong closer to using shares as reserves) ID#271125:
Today Fin Times in London has a piece providing a climpse of brilliance in HK whereby they are going to likely utilize their own listed shares as reserves !

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 08:52
Copyright © 1998 GIBBOUS/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I remember years ago, reading ( hearing ) , that all news coming out of S.E.
Asia back in the sixties, first had to go through a filtering station in London
before being broadcast in NA.

Seems almost like something similar is happening today. It wasn't that long ago, I remember watching on the tube Russians trying to knock
the doors down on the banks. The next day the Dow fell 500 points!

Presently there is never any mention of Russia, or any other country in
dire straights, or very little. Have all their problems been solved! I think not!

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 08:49
gunrunner (Thanks RJ) ID#354133:
You keep proving all the points I make about you every time you attempt to defend yourself.

And I'm sure you are a true reflection of the company which employs you... What company is that again?

Come now, is last night the best you can do?

Go Gold! And platinum? AND silver! All up at the open...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 08:40
RAN (Monday's NYTimes had an article about the ongoing discussion of privaticing) ID#371229:
social security funds for public investment in equities. Clinton is planning

further discussions of the topic this December. What are we to make of this. Most Kitcoites would scoff at such ludricrousy, but we should listen

more attentively as the gap in our belief as it may jusst be trying to tell us something. Among other things if this notion- public investment of ss funds- ever does come to pass, they will have to rename the character of a bubble market. Buy up McDonalds and Coca Cola now!!!!!

Seriously I think we have to awaken, and I think we all will with the continuing passage of time bringing us closer to Y2K, that economic good sense or even comprehensibility is not to be the norm. Why?

Check out my post 10/20/98 9:26 .

We will see concerns of inflation be non-exhistant increasingly absurd p/e ratios, absolute and irrefutable evidence of a PPT, and regrettably a POG driven to new lows.

I personally have call options spread out through the coming year

and I am holding them. & I have physical and will buy more as a hedge if

POG falls. MOst of my assumptions have come to me only after buying my option positions!

The only concern to become more increasingly evident will a propped up equity market ( to support the dollar ) and a depressed POG.

All this will accellerate after the elections regardless of the outcomes.

The why is in my previos post but to be short- Y2K will take us to

to a different world order.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 08:37
sharefin (Here's the last bit.) ID#284255:
How do you know which systems are mission-critical? For a power
company, the generation and transmission of power are critical. So, what
are they all working on? Billing. Correcting billing systems is a lot easier
than finding and replacing defective chips. Yet even here, billing is still

What we see in the U.S. government is that mission-critical is defined as
that which we have a shot at fixing by the mid-1999 deadline.
Everything else is redefined as not mission-critical. What percentage of
systems are mission-critical? No one seems to know. If we go by Pareto's
law, 20% are. But can any system run profitably with only 20% of its systems
predictable? With profit margins in the range of 10% to 15% of invested
capital, there is not much margin of error. Any organization that is not close
to 100% compliant will go bankrupt in 2000. It will have no financial
reserves. It will not be able to operate with negative returns. Only if most
of its competitors go under, and none of its mission-critical suppliers go
under, will it survive.

This means that to survive, most of your industry must go under. This brings
us back to the unemployment problem. Are you mission-critical? Are you mission
critical in an organization that will survive almost alone in your industry?
Is your company mission-critical to other
companies that will be able to survive? This is the domino effect.

All talk about mission-critical computer code misses the point. It is
not merely the code is mission-critical; it is also this: ( 1 ) suppliers that
are mission critical to the company; ( 2 ) consumers that are mission-critical
to cash flow; ( 3 ) management systems that will be mission-critical in the new,
low division of labor world. Your company may have the best sales force on
earth; if it doesn't have an army of repairmen in the broadest sense, it's
dead. Your company will not be selling new stuff; it will be charging to fix
old stuff. If it sold long-term repair contracts, find a new employer.

The Y2K experts are experts in fixing code. They do not look much
beyond the code-repair job. These are the same sorts of people who
dropped 1 and 9 in their programming back in the 1960's. They are incapable of
looking beyond code to management systems. They are specialists. I know of no
one else who writes about Y2K in terms of its effects on systems outside a
company. No one writes anything on running a company that only has mission-
critical systems. They pretend that this is outside of their jurisdiction.
They don't define mission-critical in terms of the management systems of 2000;
they define mission-critical in terms of management systems of today. This
means that they completely ignore the fundamental issue of mission-critical,
namely, how will an organization survive in terms of completely new
conditions? They assume that everything will work the same way in 2000, only
less efficiently. They do not confront the obvious: nothing will work the same
socially and economically in 2000 if only today's mission-critical systems are

For example, they tell you to write a letter to your suppliers. They do not
tell you what to do when your letters aren't answered. They can't.
All they know is code. All they know is today's systems. Today's systems
are doomed because today's division of labor is doomed. Today's systems
must be redesigned and tested today -- not just code but operations:
management, purchasing, sales, delivery systems. This is impossible. Besides,
today's managers have no time to devote to this, even if they were wise enough
to figure it out. That's why managers just sit there. They know they can't see
into the future that clearly and redesign everything in it. They aren't that
creative. They know that fixing code is the small part of getting prepared for
Y2K, and the small part is impossible to complete on time anyway. This is
why Y2K can't be fixed. Redesigned management systems must be held in reserve
for the completely new conditions in 2000. These systems don't exist. There is
no time. Furthermore, our experts tell us, Nobody can say what it will be
like in 2000. This means that nobody can identify all of the mission-critical
systems of the year 2000.

Remember King Kong? He climbed the Empire State Building. It was empty in
1933. They did not fill it until after World War II. The land was
bought in 1928 for $20 million. Megabuck investors J. J. Raskob ( creator
of General Motors ) , several Du Ponts, and others formed the corporation.
Bad timing! They built it. It opened in 1931. On May Day. Perfect! In 1951,
the Raskob estate sold it for $34 million -- dollars depreciated by World War
II. The project was a disaster from day one: 1929. Its owners did not figure
out that they were in the Great Depression, they refused to stop construction
in 1930 and just walk away. They are just like today's owners of YZK-afflicted
large companies. They think programmers can fix the code. They're wrong.

Consider your situation. How can you know what your situation will be in
2000? You don't. That's why 90% of my readers just sit there, month
after month. I can't know for sure, so I'll do nothing. Also, my wife won't
get hysterical. Yet you are the world's expert in your situation. What if you
were the chairman of a Fortune 500 company? What will your company's market be
like in 2000? Or in 2001? You have to assume pretty much like it is today.
That assumption was deadly in 1929. It will be far more deadly today. No one
knows what most of his firm's mission-critical systems will be like in 2000
because no one knows what his suppliers and his competitors and his customers
will be doing? It is not just code that is mission-critical; it's one's
position in the process of production.

Are you personally mission-critical to a mission-critical employer? Can that
mission-critical employer survive if the banks are closed? If not,
plan to be unemployed in 2000. I know I do.

But what if you're a pensioner? Are you mission-critical? You know the
answer. What are you going to do about it?

For corporations, fiscal year problems will begin as early as next January. As
soon as fiscal 2000 begins, the computers will begin to malfunction. Cory
Hamasaki, the mainframe programmer, reported on this in his most recent Y2K
Weather Report ( #91 ) . Here is my assessment. As this bug begins to spread
across the world's corporate landscape, the foul-ups will begin to paralyze
businesses. Their accounting will go haywire. Corporations will not be able to
meet deadlines for quarterly reports, including quarterly reports to the
Securities & Exchange Commission. Panic will spread to the boardrooms. The
managers who have postponed Y2K expenditures will learn just how bad Y2K is.
It must be fixed, yet it cannot be fixed. They will call in their computer
expert and say, You must get this fixed now. To which the computer expert
will say, Yes, sir. Then he will go back and do what he was doing before.
The CEOs and the managers are about to hit a brick wall that they cannot order
removed. They can issue all the directives they want; .nothing will happen
until they cut more checks. And even then, not muchwill happen.

Decades ago, Fred Brooks wrote The Mythical Man Month. There, he made an
observation that has become known as Brooks' law: if a large software
programming project is late, adding more employees will make it later. Brooks'
law in 1999 and 2000 will overcome Moore's law, i.e., computer chip capacity
doubles every 18 months. Without capital, computer chip speed will stop
increasing when the industry goes bankrupt. The dream of ever-expanding
computer capacity has only a few months to go. Scientific progress advances
only as long as there is capital to fund it. Y2K threatens the capital markets
as nothing has in history. That's why it
threatens your family.

What should you do? If you're a woman or married to one, order a copy of
Karen Anderson's report, The Ten Things Every Woman Must Do NOW to Keep Her
Family Safe. It includes an audiotape, The Busy Woman's Guide
to Preparing for Y2K. It explains what Y2K is, the threats it poses, and how
women can get started now. I know of nothing better that will help a
family come to agreement on Y2K. It sells for $24.95. Call toll-free:

Gold and Silver

I have said that there will be a two-stage recession: the Asian-generated one,
beginning early next year, and the Y2K one. The first will hit the usual
victims: businesses that are heavily in debt, the auto industry, capital
goods, big-ticket consumer goods. In such recessions, commodity prices
normally fall. I think gold and silver will go down in price. I have said this
before. But the demand for coins by Y2K investors will rise as the bullion
price falls. You need to buy the coins now, to secure your supply.

To offset losses from falling bullion prices, sell silver bullion short. Go
to a commodities broker and sell short enough silver bullion to make up for
the amount of gold and silver you own. ( I think silver is more vulnerable than
gold. ) Put one-third to one half down to avoid margin calls. That would be
$1,500 to $2,500 per 1,000 ounce bar of silver ( at $5 per ounce ) . All you are
doing here is hedging the present value of your coins. Your coins can ( and I
think will ) drop in value before the y2k panic hits, but you need some coins
now because you may not be able to get through on the phone to a coin broker
in mid-1999. By shorting gold or silver against your coins, you let the guy on
the other side of your bullion contract pay for the fall in price of your
coins. But what if bullion goes up? You lose on your futures contract, but you
gain on your coins. You have hedged. You're not looking to make money overall;
you're locking in the present market value of your coins.

For more information on how you can do this, call Pearce Financial at 800
327-8030, or FAX at 850-267-3557. Or call your existing brokerage house and
ask about setting up a commodities account. Remember: this is not speculation;
this is hedging. You are using the commodities market
as a farmer does: to lock in the value of his crop before he harvests it. But
you will still have this problem if precious metals continue to fall: what to
do with the paper money that you make in your commodities account in 1999.

The mark of a Y2K panic will be a rise in the percentage of futures
contracts delivered. Until this figure rises above 10% of all contracts in the
metals and grains, Y2K panic has not hit in full force. It's rarely above 3%.
I do not think fear will hit until second quarter of 1999. Panic will come in
the second half. So, don't panic. Act now to avoid panic later. Take steps now
that will enable you not to panic.


Gary North's Remnant Review ( ISSN 1053-5527 ) , edited by Gary North, Ph
D., is explicitly Christian and pro-free market in perspective. It is an
attempt to apply Biblical principles to economic analysis.

Subscription information:
1217 St. Paul Street
Baltimore, MD 21202
( 410 ) 234-0691
International subscribers call 410 783-8440 or fax ( 410 ) 783-8438
Copyright ©1998
Gary North's Remnant Review is published monthly by Agora, Inc., 1217
St. Paul Street, Baltimore, MD 21202 for $129 per year. For
international prices contact international Customer Service. Periodicals
postage paid at Baltimore, MD and additional mailing offices.

Sharefin's comment:

What's printed here is a WORST case scenario.
If it got this bad then there are many aspects missing.

Not probable but possible?

Then read Gartner's report:

Read the section;
'World Status' then 'Infrastructure Predictions'

And try to realise that many facets of this review,
Will befall many other countries.
How many other countries?

And who thought that the Asian effect,
Would not wash to the shores of the Western World?

Think long and deep.

The times they are a changing.

Lots more information on the Year2000 bug, can be found here;

And for what to think about doing;


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 08:26
au*stralian (Sharefin, RE: Gary North) ID#25174:
Copyright © 1998 au*stralian/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
He is basically correct. Many mission critical systems are still not Y2K compliant at this stage with Y2K compliant versions of major software ports only released in mid 98.
Without pushing the point too far , many will remember the shutting down of the AT&T national telephone system by one bug in a patch in a minor exchange. This patch was not implemented without extensive evaluation.
Now consider the hundreds of millions of potential bugs descending on the technological landscape. The high degree of global integration greatly increases the likelihood of peturbations driving the system into chaos, as bugs send cascading ripples throughout. Keep in mind that no human or even group of humans understands the global network anymore.
It is probability 1.0 that their will be major problems.
Life will not end in the year 2000 but it will sure be more interesting.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 08:25
John Disney (..for your eyes only ..) ID#24135:
Copyright © 1998 John Disney/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
For Mozel ..
My intelligence reports show the following ..

1. most Americans believe that the cowardly lying
sex obsessed WJC is doing a good job and
should stay in office. Polls show this to be
the case .. as well as anectdotal information
from someone calling himself mole.
2. Some Americans apparently believe that
Israelis SMELL better than Palestinians.. ( I
believe that some 50 years ago a gent named
Goebbels had many people convinced to
the contrary ) .

With this information in hand, I feel that
it would have been a fairly simple matter to
convince such a citizenry that manned flight
to the moon had taken place ( while actually
performing a much lower cost not to mention
lower risk ) false operation in Nevada. After
all, it was in their best interests .. look
at the taxes they saved ..

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 08:12
Squirrel (Thank's for the great long post!) ID#280214:
But it was cut off.
Is there a limit to how much can be posted?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 07:55
Silverbaron (ERLE) ID#288466:

That's just




( ;^ ) )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 07:54
Silverbaron (ERLE - PICK ONE OF THE FOLLOWING) ID#288466:
Copyright © 1998 Silverbaron/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Date: Tue Oct 20 1998 21:46
ERLE ( Silverbaron ) ID#190411:

Your cageyness relating to POG and stocks is a welcome antidote to the cheerleader stuff.

I am

1. cagey
2. a lunatic for messing with gold and silver
3. bewildered
4. a time traveler
5. an alien
6. all of the above

Hint: Don't pick number 1.

Thanks for the heads-up on the Argentine gold. It would be great to get the equivalent of Sovereigns at $20 or so less than the current retail price. BTW I'm halfway into the precious metals stocks now - will go all the way in on the next dip, I think.



Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 07:41
CharlieS (Sharefin at 07:14) ID#298380:
Sharefin: I hope your post concerning embedded chips is not taken
seriously by anyone. Embedded chips are the most serious Y2K problem
we have. I think you know this. Your in depth knowledge of Y2K leads
me to no other conclusion. No offense intended.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 07:39
SDRer (Debt junkies ) ID#290172:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

One of the recurring themes in this column will be debt. There are no free lunches - likewise there are no free debts.

But this stock of foreign debt is over 80 per cent of the value of the world economy. This excludes domestic debt…

Lowering the cost of debt entices more debt. That is like solving a heroin problem by reducing the price of the drug. For heroin addicts and debt junkies the result will be the same. Both will consume more. Heroin kills the junkie, while increased debt payments terminates living up to the Windsors.

In late 1927 the then governor of the New York Fed issued his coup de whiskey to the stock market by lowering rates by 0,5% to 3,5%. This relaxation of monetary policy was the last of many rate cuts and other policies designed to keep the Dow momentum going.

Duisberg, Tietmeyer and company don't believe in re-inflating the economy. ( That will be the central argument for the next year or so - believe it. )

Easy money did not prevent the 1929 debt junkies from crashing. History repeats itself. Makes you think, doesn't it?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 07:37
sharefin (Sorry about the length - but worth the read? Lucky for Bart's new server.) ID#284255:
Here, for those interested in recent Gary North stuff, is his Sept 4th
Remnant Review newsletter ( I subscribe ) -- the whole thing, in SIX parts.
For someone who wanted to know, subscription info & his email address is at
the end.

Correction: *VERY* scary. You might discount it a bit because G. North is at
the extreme end of the doomsayers ( Edwards 5 ) . But IMO, it's worth pondering,
and I'd be interested in your comments.

If this were a movie, it'd outspook all the Hallowe'ens.


ghostwails from
( lighting pumpkins in Maryland )
--------------------FWD BELOW-------------------------------

Preparing the Remnant for the far side of the crisis

E-mail bonus:
Mat. 6:33-34
Vol. 25, No 9
September 4, 1998

Warning: on December 1, Brady II goes into effect. You will no longer be able
to walk into a sporting goods store, buy a rifle or a shotgun, and walk out
with it. There will be a 5-day waiting period. Although the following is
illegal by federal law, your name, address, and the gun's serial number will
go into an FBI computer for 18 months. ( Ha, ha: the joke's on them! ) At
present, the purchasing information is kept in handwritten form in a book.
It's not easy to access.

If you are planning to exercise your Second Amendment liberties, do it before
this deadline. Here are my recommendations. A Mossberg Model 500 is a good,
inexpensive shotgun. It comes in long barrel and short barrel. When in doubt,
buy both. A 30-06 is good for hunting. A mini-14 ( .223 ) is an all-round family
sports weapon. Remington, Winchester, and Ruger are good brands. These will be
excellent barter items.

If there is a regional gun show in your city before December 1, attend it.
Bring cash. These shows will become more popular after December 1, but you
will not have the selection of merchandise.

The media are now beginning to promote the idea that Y2K preparedness is
related in some way to terrorism. It's apocalyptic paranoia, we are told. This
was argued in a recent Los Angeles Times article. What is this all about? The
suggestion that Y2K will bring down the Federal government is undermining the
idea that the individual citizen owes it to the rest of society to transfer
his personal responsibility to the State, including responsibility for his
safety. If the government cannot provide citizens with physical safety, then
the basic premise of the welfare State goes down the tubes, including the idea
that the State has the right and obligation to take half of our income.

The welfare State has less than 16 months to go. Its defenders and promoters
will fight with everything they have to preserve people's faith in its
morality and competence. Y2K will destroy all such dreams in 2000 and beyond,
but until then, we can expect to see every lie in the book about the evils of
those who take Y2K seriously. They, not Y2K, will be pictured as the true
threat to society. We are already seeing this in the press and on the Web.
This propaganda campaign will not slow down Y2K's arrival by a nanosecond.

When Cash Flow Ceases

I shorted the stock market at about 8,700 Dow by using the Rydex Ursa Fund.
Call Rydex: 1-800-820-0888. This fund has a $25,000 minimum. It's a good place
to be in a bear market. We're in a bear market. It will be the worst bear
market in history.

Phase 1 of the bear market will be normal: falling stocks and rising bonds,
bankruptcies, unemployment. It might last only two or three quarters were it
not for Y2K. But about the time it might get better, Y2K will undermine men's
faith in the recovery. By 2000, this will be a depression. It will last for a
decade. Maybe a lot longer.

This recession will be overcome, not by economic recovery, but with the worst
depression in history. Electronic promises to pay will fall to zero value.
They will take with them the traditional recession hedges: government bonds,
prime corporate bonds, and even money market funds. When the banks go down, or
the power grid goes down, the wise hedges will be investments that have not
worked well for 150 years: low technology agriculture and manufacturing. The
division of labor giveth, and Y2K taketh away.

The Gartner Group estimates that 50% of all small businesses on earth will
miss the deadline. This does not mean that they will all go bankrupt. It also
doesn't mean that they won't. The question is: What organization can run well
enough to stay in business through the worst
depression ever recorded if it is not 100% compliant? How much inefficiency is
tolerable in the middle of a worldwide economic collapse? Unless a firm can
make major adjustments, it will not survive. It must be flexible enough to
switch back to pen and ink, or else somehow identify the noncompliant portions
of its systems, segregate them, and replace them with pen and ink or a
compliant alternative. What kind of management skills will allow such
flexibility? These backward moving skills don't exist today. They will have to
be learned on the job. It would be wildly optimistic to imagine that more than
20% of the firms that aren't compliant will have managers who can make the
adjustments. That would mean that 40% of all small businesses worldwide will
go out of business in 2000.

Small businesses employ most of the world's workers. Their bankruptcy will
make 2000 the worst depression in history. Tens of millions of Americans will
lose their jobs. So will a comparable percentage of all workers in the West.
There is no safe haven for the world's economy. The popular suggestion that
big firms will buy up little firms is incredibly naive. The big firms suffer
from massive complexity, which makes their Y2K repairs time consuming beyond
the 15 months remaining after September. Large organizations will not be in a
position to swallow the losers. How will a compliant large company ( none
exists so far ) incorporate the bad computer code of its bankrupt competitors?
It won't even try. To incorporate bad code is like swallowing a poison pill.
Besides, there is no verifiable indication that large organizations will
survive at all. How General Motors will survive with 100,000 suppliers is
beyond my ability to conceive. The auto industry is doomed. Noncompliant
suppliers will bring down the auto makers even if the manufacturers get
compliant, which is highly unlikely. GM has two billion lines of code.

Everyone assumes that big is better. Y2K will destroy that assumption in every
field. Big is bad because complex is bad. Simple means survival. That is why
this civilization is facing a disaster, and possibly extinction. Its systems
are so complex that no one can say what the effects will be when 1999 rolls
over. But your assumption had better be that large systems will all fail. To
assume otherwise is to put your life on the line. It is also to assume that 35
years of computerized cost cutting have not fundamentally changed the way that
systems work.This is a silly assumption. But how they work in an international
system of compliant computers in 1998 tells us almost nothing about how they
will work in 2000. We do know this: they will not work well.

To survive, an organization will have to have the following: ( 1 ) cash
reserves ( I mean cash, not electronic promises to pay ) ; ( 2 ) suppliers that can
still deliver the goods; ( 3 ) buyers who can still afford to buy; ( 4 ) a means
of payment ( money system ) ; ( 5 ) a way to contact suppliers and customers
( phones, mail ) ; ( 6 ) a way of tracking sales and deliveries; ( 7 ) an integrated
system for handling the complaints of its existing customer base; ( 8 ) a safe
environment, from the employees' homes to the office; ( 9 ) traffic lights that
work. Not one of these business life-support systems is 2000-compliant. Don't
be fooled by any chatter about they can do it. Ask for proof that someone
has done it. Then ask for proof that any industry or system has done it. None

What distinguishes me from all other analysts who have gone public to a large
audience is this: I say that it cannot be done. This is a systemic
problem. It cannot be fixed. It is too complex and too widespread.

My critics have one thing in common: they cannot point to a single
compliant company on earth that has 10 million lines of code or more.
They cannot point to a single industry whose software vendors have all
delivered compliant programs. They say they can do it, and they literally
ask you to bet your life on their unsubstantiated claims. I have all of the
evidence: universal noncompliance today. They have no evidence: a single case
of a completely compliant, tested, mainframe-dependent firm that started out
noncompliant. Yet they are believed and I am not. Why? Because people do not
want to believe that the world has only 15 months to go.

The Coming Unemployment

Unemployment in 2000 and beyond will dwarf the Great Depression's 25% in the
U.S. in 1932. How high will urban unemployment go in 2000? So
high that no government agency will be able to report it. The government
census agencies will no longer function. If the banks close, count on 50%
unemployment, minimum. It will probably be higher. If the power grid goes
down, it will be much higher. That means no money income, which for most
people means no income at all. What of today's welfare agencies? They are tied
to banks and checks. This includes all civil governments.

But wait, you say. That means starvation in the cities. Yes. That's
exactly what it means. This leads me to my next point: stored food. Have
you waited more than 90 days for delivery? Give the company 30 more
days. FAX the company. Ask for a written reply: a deadline for shipping
your food. Give the company 24 hours to reply. If the deadline is over 30
days, cancel the order. If you paid, get your money back immediately.
Do not argue or beg. It's your money. Do not allow the seller to argue
or beg. Accept no excuses. Get a new order placed immediately with
another firm, while you still can. Do not place a new order unless you
get a written delivery date shorter than 60 days.

The problem is institutional survival. We pay food companies to deliver the
goods. They take our money. What if they can't deliver? We lose both our money
and the goods. We trust a firm's promise to deliver the goods, but what if
it's eight months behind? At some point, Y2K will overtake it, leaving eight
months of buyers without food. That's why your limit
has to be 60 days. Do not become a stored food company's banker longer
than 60 days.

Unemployment comes when a firm cannot get cash flow. When the cash flow
ceases, the company's survival is in question. The owner asks: How long will
it take to get cash flow back? In a world without banks, longer than the
company has. Even if banks can keep going with noncompliant computers ( proof,
please! ) , the cash flow problem still will exist.
Here's why: customers will be caught in telephone trees.

We live in a world of telephone trees. The recorded voice leads us down the
tree to solid ground. If you know your party's extension, press 1.
If you want to speak with someone in sales, press 2. If. . . . All over the
world, the public will be caught in the high limbs of telephone trees, unable
to climb down. This assumes that the phone system will work. It also assumes
that the percentage of foul-ups will be low enough so that not too many people
phone into any one organization at one time. But the magnitude of the
noncompliant code is so great that this is not a reasonable assumption. It
will be fubar: fouled up beyond all recognition.

How many days of busy signals will it take to cut cash flow to such a level
that a company cannot survive? When 90% of the callers are asking
a firm's harried staff to sort out some mess, how will a company take
sales calls? It won't. We have shifted from service staff to sales staff, and
not much of a sales staff. That's 50% of the essence of Wal-Mart's revolution.
( The other 50% is the reduction of inventory costs through computerized, just-
in-time deliveries. ) In the next 16 months, the entire business world must
move back to service. This cannot be done. We cannot restructure operations to
go back to 1965 by January 1, 2000. But companies that cannot move back to
service will not survive. That's why the best business fields to be in will be
pure service: repairing broken tools and broken systems, keeping broken things
operational. The jack of all repair trades will be king. He will not be
pushing papers. He will be paid in cash. You had better have cash.

We will move from buying to fixing. Our slogan will be: Use it up; wear it
out; do without. We will move in 2000 from manufacturing to repairing. We will
pay to get our old stuff fixed. The business that sells new stuff will be
competing against a world of consumers who start
selling their inventories of goods. We will move from complex to simple.
That is, we will get very poor very fast. We will be moving to the third

Let's take an obvious example. A man has been out of work for two
months. He has no more savings: the stock market is closed and his bank
is closed. Will he trade his $5,000 entertainment system for a month's
worth of wheat that today is worth, say, $100? Yes, if he can find someone to
make the trade. Farmers will not be coming into riot-torn

What will a $50,000 automobile be worth in a world without gasoline? Not
much. What will a collection of antiques be worth? Not much. And so on. People
will find that the trinkets that they worked all their lives to buy are merely
trinkets. They will get a hard dose of priorities in 2000.

Massive Decapitalization

Every business is at extreme risk. The most valuable asset that a firm has
today is its customer base, which is managed digitally in almost all cases.
But most customers will be out of work and nearly penniless in
2000. That will destroy capital values.

The price of a capital asset is its expected income stream discounted by the
rate of interest. When people realize that mass bankruptcy is inevitable,
including governments, interest rates will skyrocket. People
will become present oriented. They will want to buy survival goods now.
They will cash in long term investments. This is why interest rates will
rise: the loss of future orientation. Meanwhile, the asset's risk premium will
rise as never before. If the banks and brokerage houses cannot keep track of
who owns what, all electronic promises to pay become doubtful. The expected
stream of income from the shares or bonds will drop. Default will be likely in
2000 and beyond. So, capital prices get hit from both sides: rising risks and
rising present orientation.

Let me give an example. Bank runs for cash will be halted by executive
emergency orders that have been on the books for decades. People will
then know that they will probably not have to pay off their loans after the
computers go blind. Millions of them will then run their credit cards to the
limit. There will be a huge increase of consumer debt at the very time that
the public ceases to save. The traditional allocation device, rising interest
rates, will not work well. Rates will have to go to the moon: triple digit.
This will collapse the value of bonds and mortgages.

We are seeing falling rates today. That's because the recession that
the stock market is predicting is a traditional recession: economic slowdown,
insolvent banks, and a bursting stock market bubble. Wise traditional
investors seek to lock in their capital's present value by selling stocks and
buying bonds and short-term debt certificates. This lowers rates. But in late
1999, all this will change. The stock market will shut down entirely while the
bond market will also begins its meltdown. Why? Because investors will see
what Y2K will do to their hoped-for streams of income: kill them. No investor
in his right mind will lend 30-year money in a world in which the banks won't
make it a year. Widows will, but they're always the last to learn. My late
husband believed in bonds! Her late husband never foresaw Y2K. Nobody did.

The bottom line of Y2K: there will be no passive income. You will have to
scramble like mad for anything you bring in. All electronic promises to pay
will die. So will people who are completely dependent on them.

I don't care who you are or how much money you have, unless you're Bill
Gates. To the extent that your assets are electronic promises to pay,
you are facing a complete disaster. If you say, I'm just too old to go back
to work, then you had better convert all of your electronic promises to pay
into hard goods. Hard times require hard goods and hard choices.

What do you plan to do with your expected stream of income from
electronic promises to pay? Do it now. You plan to buy food. Buy it now.
You plan to buy clothing. Buy it now. You plan to buy medicine. Sorry; you're
out of luck. The division of labor is going to collapse, and high tech
pharmaceutical producers require an advanced division of labor. It's time to
find herbal or other remedies. If there are none, then I can't help you. No
one on earth can. It's time for prayer. There is no way to sugar coat this.

You can say -- and probably will say -- it won't get that bad. That
depends on the banks, the phone system, the power grid, and the railroads.
Today, not one of these industries is compliant.

The state of Minnesota's Department of Services sent out letters to 323 public
utilities asking them to answer some very simple questions on
their Y2K status. Only 183 responded. Of those power generating companies that
replied, 49 said they had begun a Y2K repair, but 47 said they hadn't. Nine
more refused to say. As for natural gas firms, it was 8 to 8. This is
mid-1998, and half of them have not even started!!!! You know even fewer of
those that refused to reply have begun. They will not meet the deadline. No
qualifications. It's over. They're dead. But their noncompliant status may
take down the regional grid, assuming the ones still in business reach
compliance ( no power plant has ) and can still get coal shipped by compliant
trains ( none so far ) . Minnesota is not unique. Minnesota is just more open
about how bad it really is. Minnesota is cold in the winter. Y2K hits in

Yet you can still buy a wood stove today for under $1,000. This is
because most people are in denial. I keep getting letters: Dr. North, what
should I do with my money? If you have an extra $20,000 lying around, buy 20
wood stoves if you live in the north. Also buy insulated stove pipe and
brushes. Store them. That's a simple, obvious thing to do with your money
before this winter. Go into the wood stove business. You will have a very good
market -- a cash market -- in late 1999. Not many people will have cash, but
some will, and they will be cold. Do them a favor. Sell them a stove and a
cord of wood.

The Central Banks Are Running Scared

Since the most recent issue of Remnant Review, something historically
unprecedented has happened. The Federal Reserve System announced that it has
$150 billion in warehoused currency, and it plans to print another $50 billion
by December 31, 1999. Those of us who do not trust the FED had suspected this,
ever since that 1983 ( as I recall ) plane crash near Culpepper, Virginia, which
led to the discovery of a secret underground facility run by the government.
( If it had been run by right wingers, it would have been called a compound or
a bunker by the press, not a
facility. )

Why would the FED admit this? To stem a panic. The New Zealand central bank
followed suit a few days later. An unconfirmed report by an Australian government official said that their central bank was stockpiling a billion.

Big money, right? Wrong. The figure for M3 plus other liquid assets in June,
1998, was $6.9 trillion. That's what keeps afloat the $7 trillion
U.S. economy. On March 1, 2000, there will not be any electronic money
unless virtually all of the world's banks get fully compliant. Forget it. Not
one major money center bank is compliant today. Neither is any central bank.

Deflation? From $6.9 trillion to no more than $265 billion in cash.
That's a 95% reduction in the money supply. This assumes that the FED
really does have access to enough intaglio presses and Crane Company currency
paper to produce over five times more money than the entire Bureau of
Engraving and Printing puts out in a year. I'll say this: they will have to do
it with large denomination bills. When you buy something in 2000, don't expect

How much money is $265 billion? There are 100 million households in the U.S.
That's $2,650 per household, just one more time, if none of this
new money is sent out of the country. But of the $480 billion in currency said
to be in circulation, all but $18 billion is either in mattresses already or
outside the U.S. All analysts assume the latter.

The FED cannot print up $50 billion in small bills by late 1999. More
to the point, the FED cannot manufacture coins. So, what you want is
change: quarters, dimes, nickels, and pennies. Where can you get them?

Begin with your bank. Create a DBA ( doing business as ) . Write checks
out of your personal account ( if you have no business ) to a newly created
company with the name company in it. Set up ten business accounts in ten
different banks in your region. Put in, say, $2,000 or more per account. Then,
over the next ten weeks, go to each of them and take out $500 in quarters.
This comes in a nice box. Get $200 in dimes, $100 in nickels and $25 in
pennies, too. Businesses use cash.

Do you know anyone who owns a car wash? Make a deal. Bring in a
cashier's check and buy up his quarters every week or month. Add an extra 5%
if you have to, maybe in cash. That's a sweet deal for him. It's a nice deal
for you: no records, no bank reporting, nothing.

Drive to Las Vegas or some casino city. Your wife stays at one hotel.
You stay at another. Stay one day. Make three coin runs, one every eight
hours: one per work shift. Buy slot machine money. You're a tourist. Wear a
brightly colored shirt. Wear one of those money belts that are so ugly. Each
of you gets several hundred in coins on each 8-hour shift. Drop in a few coins
to make it look good. Then go up to your room. I'm not going to tell you a way
to get them to your car. I don't want to create patterns that will be
identifiable retroactively. Be creative.

The deflation in 2000 will be as nothing in history. People will hoard
money as if there were no tomorrow. Not only will the money supply drop
by 95%, the velocity of money will slow to a crawl. People will not be
spending money. They will be delaying payment. They will know that they
do not have to pay for past purchases. They will use their cash only for
immediate purchases. Creditors will be expropriated unmercifully --
destroyed. Unless you can get a judge to foreclose, and find a court that
isn't jammed up, your wealth will disappear in one gigantic transfer.
Possession will not be 9/l0ths of the law; it will be the law.

If money is no longer electronic, prices will fall to pre-World War I
levels by 2001. A home that sells for $200,000 today will sell for $10,000
cash in 2001 or 2002, if it sells at all. In some cities, homes
will be abandoned to squatters. Criminals will inherit them. There will be no
mortgage money extended by third parties because there will be no government
guarantees. The only mortgages will be seller financing, assuming the courts
will allow evictions for nonpayment. If the courts fail here, there will be no
mobility of ownership for housing other than cash sales. There will not be
much cash.

If the banks' computers are not compliant, they will either shut off or spew
out bad data. How will people check every transaction by pen and
ink? How long will it take to go back to 1965? Months? Hardly. Years. In
the meantime, cash flow will disappear. The debt structure of modern
business means that without cash flow, business collapses. There will be
no business.

Commercial real estate is doomed. Gone. Why? No commerce. If you owned a
business that was suffering from a huge reduction in cash flow, where could
you cut costs? At the top of the list in 2000, when every business is
suffering the same fate, the answer is obvious: stop paving the
mortgage. It will take months for the owner to evict you. He will have to get
a court order -- he and a million other commercial property owners. It's WOWW
again: who owes whom what? The courts will jam up with
eviction cases. Not 1% will be enforceable by the end of 2000. Nobody will be
paying rent in 2001. The mortgage market will die in 2000 when this becomes
obvious to investors.

Who owes whom what? Who can collect? Who will pay if he doesn't have to? The
payments system will break down. There is no slack in the
system. Without payments, all dominoes will topple. The division of labor will
collapse. Today's paper-pushers will not have income. This means they will not
eat. Literally.

We have not seen anything like this in American history. We cannot
conceive of it. But consider what happens if neither checks nor credit
cards are acceptable in trade. The seller says: I don't know if your bank is
still solvent. If it is, I don't know if you have any money in it. I don't
know if my bank's computers will be able to talk with your bank's computers.
All I know is cash. Small bills please; I don't make change. Think through
your month without credit cards or checks. Where would you be at the end of
the month? Alive? Now month number two. Now month number three.

How can they fix it if the payments system goes down? If the programmers
can't fix it months before the deadline ( December 31, 1998
comes to mind ) , the payments system will begin to break down in 1999.
Add to this noncompliant chips. Add panic. Finally, add a President who is in
the midst of a Constitutional crisis. There will be no leadership. I can see
it now, index finger wagging at the TV camera: I did not make a withdrawal
from that bank, Citicorp! It won't play in Peoria. The only thing to fear is
. . . fear itself. My response: Fubar!

A Local Bank Hints at the Truth

A subscriber FAXed me a copy of a remarkable newsletter, Club Magna 35
( April-June ) . It is published by the Magna Bank of Lincoln, Illinois. The
newsletter's issue is devoted to Y2K. We read:

There have been many Doomsday predictions and rightfully so! These issues
have the possibility of enormously impacting the entire world and all of its
industries. . . .

What can be done to prepare for the Year 2000? The first thing to
remember is . . . Do Not Panic . . .

Have a couple of weeks supply of food and drinking water... just in
case transportation is not available or stores are closed. Fill your car with
gas...many pumps are automated currency. Have some cash on hand ... coins and
small bill denomination.

Yes, you read that last one correctly. I never believed I would ever
see this: a bank that says it's a good idea to get your hands on some cash.

The time frame: a couple of weeks. Think about this. What level of economic
breakdown would it take to shut down America's water, food, banks, and
gasoline distribution for two weeks? This has never happened in our history.
If this scenario hits Lincoln, Illinois this hard, it will hit Lincoln,
Nebraska, too. It will begin in a very cold month.

Ask yourself this: How can this level of breakdown be fixed in just two weeks,
when it has not been fixed, 1995 to 1998? If, in the boom economy of 1995-98,
almost nothing has been done, with no organization anywhere near compliance,
why should anyone believe that Y2K will be fixed in two weeks in a world
without water, food, banks, and gasoline? I'll tell you why: because the world
wants to believe in comfortable lies rather than painful truths.

Are You Mission-Critical?

One of the pat phrases of the Y2K world is mission-critical. It is now
universally admitted by those in charge of repairs that all of their
system's systems -- there are multiple systems in complex organizations
-- will not be fixed by 1/1/2000. So, they are all promoting mission-critical
repairs. You can run a 6-cylinder car on five cylinders. Yes, you can. You
can run it on four cylinders. Yes, you can. But can you run it without
gasoline? Here is the problem: what is mission-critical in every complex
system are items supplied by someone outside that system. This means that
programmers can work like busy beavers to get your system's internal mission-
critical systems repaired, but you have zero ability to keep your company
operating if a mission-critical supplier fails and cannot be replaced by a
competitor. This is the heart, mind, and soul of the domino effect. Today, all
of your suppliers are noncompliant. That is why you can't get straight answers
when you send them Are you compliant? letters. And even if they write back
and say, Yes, their mission-critical suppliers aren't.

Mission-critical: electricity, telephones, banks, railroads, water/sewer.
There is no compliant company in any of these fields, let
alone an entire industry. Every company can have all of its systems 100%
compliant, and if just one of these fails, compliance means nothing.

How do you know which systems are mission-critical? For a power
company, the generation and transmission of power are critical. So, what
are they al

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 07:18
Silverbaron (5 Day projection of Individual stocks) ID#288466:
Contains 500 stocks....mining stocks are just those from S&P 500

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 07:16
Silverbaron (market projections update) ID#288466:

User: hixson

Password: thmetal

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 07:14
sharefin (Embedded Chips Not Seen As Big Problem ) ID#284255:

Good news?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 07:07
Silverbaron (XAU T/A) ID#288466:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 06:54
Donald (Did you know the Bank of Japan is publicly owned and traded? I didn't.) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 06:46
sharefin (Economic outlook 1999: Year of the Y2K bear) ID#284255:
For the past two years, the economy was almost never a topic of conversation around my house. What's noteworthy about that? Well, for starters, my significant other is an economist. OK, so we try not to bring work home.

But now, the topic is unavoidable. For the last month, we've spent more time talking about the economy than we have passing the syrup. That's because the turmoil that's roiled the world economy and financial markets since last year is finally starting to affect the sector that's near and dear to our hearts - and wallets - the tech sector.

Initially, few, if any, of the events that triggered our banter hit very close to home. Toys 'R' Us announced it was closing a bunch of stores and laying off workers - but mostly overseas, so that didn't bother us. Word that Gillette would be making major layoffs cut a little deeper, since Gillette is based in Massachusetts, where we live. But still, we weren't too worried.

Our attitude started to change - and our anxiety began to creep up -- last week, when the Fed bumped short-term interest rates down a smidgen, triggering a massive sell-off in tech stocks. ( Click for more. ) More bad news on the tech front followed Friday, when Hewlett-Packard announced it would offer buyouts to 2,500 employees in a cost-cutting move. ( Click for more. )

In these jittery times for investors, I've been hoping the tech sector would show some resilience. My livelihood depends on it, after all. But now I fear the sector may not be as hardy as I had hoped, so our conversations are taking on a more anxious tone. Are we next? What should we do about our current investments? Screw everyone who says stay in it for the long haul. I had a sixth sense a few months ago that I should have moved some of my retirement funds into something more conservative. My most recent 401 ( k ) statement proved my instinct right. I'm dreading next quarter's report.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 06:44
Gollum (Bond dipsters) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 06:42
Gollum (Turning the corner?) ID#43349:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 06:41
Will (Chicken man) ID#239256:

Thanks for the reply yesterday Chicken man.
The book is out of print and proving hard to get in Oz, but I will get there, because-- hell,it was recommended to me

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 06:36
John Disney (howzat ) ID#24135:


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 06:35
sharefin (Mozel) ID#284255:
Does that mean you expect the birthright?
Seems like someone never told you the truth.

I thought rights went out the door long ago when power politics and greed entered the foray.

Money speaks louder than rights.

GPS - Y2k & EOW rollovers

There are seventeen slides here.
With no linking buttons.
Just change the last few digits in the url box to scroll through them.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 06:23
SDRer () ID#286249:
Latest London Bullion Fixings

Gold AM Fixing ( 21 Oct 1998 ) : 174.442 Pounds Sterling
Gold AM Fixing ( 21 Oct 1998 ) : 296.900 US Dollars

Gold PM Fixing ( 20 Oct 1998 ) : 172.981 Pounds Sterling
Gold PM Fixing ( 20 Oct 1998 ) : 295.400 US Dollars

Silver Fixing ( 20 Oct 1998 ) : 2.8458 Pounds Sterling
Silver Fixing ( 20 Oct 1998 ) : 4.8550 US Dollars

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 06:06
mozel (@au*stralian) ID#153110:
I have a birthright to just government by the consent of the governed to secure the rights of the individual to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If you don't, I can understand your lack of understanding.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:57
SDRer (Choices? {:-)) ID#93127:
Copyright © 1998 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
A market crash would be painful, yes.
Deplete middle class wealth and pension funds, yes. All that would be temporary setbacks. Much more painful would be a bond market crash. That would be the true crash initiating a world-wide depression.

Realize that Fed rules now allow banks to count government bonds as cash in meeting Fed reserve requirements. A bond market crash would probably destroy the structure of our financial institutions, especially those heavily leveraged at 10%. A generation from now I would not be surprised to see financial deriviatives outlawed and margin requirements on bonds raised to the level demanded of stock customers.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:50
ChasAbar (Strong yen to accomplish...) ID#340344:
Copyright © 1998 ChasAbar/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Arco, as in Petroleum, and a partner are building a giant plastics manufacturing plant in southern California. The partner is a Japanese firm, a giant distributor of polypropylene ( plastic stuff ) throughout Asia. There are only a handful of such plants worldwide. Why would they build one in the western U.S.? IMO, because they know that the yen will become so strong vs the US$ that Japan, and this company, will have an inside position to import this high-demand plastic from the cheapest source, one that is US$-denominated. If they thought the yen would remain weak there would be no real need to build this huge, 450,000,000-pound-per-year producer, as this plastic can be and is converted into products throughout Asia now at very low prices, and afterward, it is sold throughout the world, again at very low prices. This is an indication to me that someone expects the rates will change very soon. I do not buy into idea that Japan will collapse. I predict they *will* pull a rabbit out of a hat. Maybe the rabbit will be Golden? What is the possibility that the Japanese government took money from the huge postal savings system, and bought tons of gold with it? It may be far-fetched, but I believe something like that has happened.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:48
mozel (@The Moon Walk Fraud) ID#153110:
Copyright © 1998 mozel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
American machines went to the moon. In the Lunar Orbiter, Ranger, and Surveyor missions.
They orbited and made photos of the surface and sent them back.
They landed.
They sampled the surface and sent back a scientific analysis.
They sampled other aspects of the moon and environment and sent back the results.
On remote command they made photos at the surface, developed the film, scanned the images, and sent them back to earth. Surveyor 7 is reported to have made and transmitted 21,000 photos. There is nothing to have prevented NASA from making unreported unmanned flights after Surveyor 7. There is nothing compelling NASA to disclose.
It is not implausible that a machine landed, collected material, took off and returned to earth completely secretly. The only limiting factor preventing this was the payload capacity of the rockets.
All this was done by machines. This is documented in a record of missions and results as public information.
Here is a photo of a Surveyor craft. What took it and where ?

In other words, the evidence that the means existed to have perpetrated a moon walk fraud is public information. The photos to do it were on earth before Apollo 11; the knowledge to make moon rocks was on earth before Apollo 11.

Virtually, everything we think we know about space and the moon is from official sources, many of them military, all of them subject to National Security, Official Secrets, and the like enactments. The information we civilians have has been released to us civilians by government agencies for national security purposes.

Here are some published flight records:
Surveyor 5
Launched 08 September 1967
Landed 11 September 1967, 00:46:44 UT
Latitude 1.41 N, Longitude 23.18 E - Mare Tranquillitatus ( Sea of Tranquility )

Apollo 11
Launched: 16 July 1969 UT 13:32:00 ( 09:32:00 a.m. EDT )
Landed on Moon: 20 July 1969 UT 20:17:40 ( 04:17:40 p.m. EDT )
Landing Site: Mare Tranquillitatis - Sea of Tranquility ( 0.67 N, 23.47 E )
Returned to Earth: 24 July 1969 UT 16:50:35 ( 12:50:35

Note how close these sites are to one another. Surveyor site is only .74 North of Apollo site and .71 away on the Longitude. Moon has equatorial radius of 1738 KM and polar radius of 1735 km. I wonder just how far the Surveyor craft was from the supposed landing site of Apollo in km and whether or not it should have been visible on the flat horizon. In another place NASA says visible hills are about 13 km away. So it was more than 13 km to the horizon in the Apollo photos. I expect Surveyor site will be just over the horizon from Apollo site.

Look at the published data from Ranger on meteorite impacts.

Twenty 0.025-mm beryllium copper pressurized cell detectors were used to provide direct measurements in the near-lunar environment of the rate of penetration by micrometeoroids. The detectors were arranged on the periphery of the tank deck. Each cell was a helium pressurized semicylinder with a pressure sensitive switch that remained closed until pressure was released by puncture of the cell's surface. Meteoroid hits were recorded by discrete telemetry channel state changes. The total exposed area of the detectors was 0.282 sq m, and the effective area after shielding by other components was 0.186 sq m. One micrometeoroid hit was recorded during the photographic mission and four hits were recorded during the extended mission.

Another Ranger mission recorded three micrometeoroid hits during the photographic mission.

The average meteorite can be thinner than a human hair or no larger than a grain of sand, but they each can pack the punch of a bullet from a gun. .186 sq m is a small area. It is against the probability recorded in the Ranger public data that no astronaut had his suit compromised by a micrometeorite.

Look at the published data on proton penetration of radiation shielding.
The sensor system consisted of two separately monitored thin cesium iodide scintillators ( 2-pi solid angle acceptance ) that were positioned and shielded in the same way as the film in the cassette and in the loopers. The shielding thickness of the cassette and cassette dosimeter was 2 gm/sq cm aluminum. The shielding of the loopers and the looper dosimeter was 0.17 gm/sq cm aluminum. These shielding thicknesses also corresponded approximately to the thickness of the Apollo module wall of a space suit. In the case of protons at verticle incidence, particles with energy greater than 40 and 11 MeV penetrated 2 and 0.17 gm/sq cm, respectively.

In other words, an astronaut wearing a suit on the moon with radiation protection of a thickness of .17 gm/sq cm would be radiated by all energy particles hitting vertically and having energy greater than 11 MeV.

There is also the heat problem about which I have found many if not most people have been brain blocked by space movies not to comprehend. We are not metal. Or rock. We are mammals. We are heat generating; we are temperature self-regulating on earth. We sweat when we are hot. We put on layers of cloth when we are cold. If silvering had anything to do with keeping us warm, our winter clothes would be silvered. Heat loss from radiation is nominal for us. In space, where all heat loss is by radiation and none is by convection or conductance, we will be hot even before the sun hits us. If you don't grasp this, you just do not understand the insulating property of a vacuum. Take the damned silvering off of a thermos and see if hot things do not still stay hotter longer than they do out of the thermos. Now, think of a heat generator in the thermos. That's you in space on the dark side of the moon. Generating heat, naturally, in an environement that is something like a three foot thick down suit, but more so. Hot. Unable to regulate your temperature by sweating. Now add a wrapping of aluminum to defend you from radiation and another wrapping of neoprene to protect you from the vacuum with pressurization. Now go to the sun side of the moon. The moon absorbs virtually all of the received radiated energy. Doesn't any rock in your experience ?

Domestically, the fraud is safe because it is a State Secret. The fraud was internationally safe so long as there was a Cold War. Free world countries that know are committed to keep it secret by mutual defense treaties and treaties on mutual protection of State Secrets. Third world countries either don't know or couldn't get the attention of anything but National Equirer if they blew a whistle. The media made it a safe fraud by shaping public opinion with the materials provided by NASA.

Post Cold War, the fact of this fraud has made USG vulnerable to blackmail by foreign governments. The Russians and Chinese know. The Japanese also know. They admire the way USG defrauds the governed while nurturing their false belief that they are free and informed. They admire the way the governed are controlled. But, the possibility they might expose the fraud gives them a bargaining chip.

Japan and USG just recently repenned a defense pact. Wonder what concessions Japan might extract for helping US perpetuate its fraud. Easy to feed pictures from a digital library in place of a digital stream from the rover. If you want to. Moon Walk Fraud Phase II, the themepark.

Mitsubishi Investment Puts LunaCorp in Drivers Seat
by Pat Dasch & John Kross
Ad Astra Magazine, National Space Society.

Japanese motor giant Mitsubishi Corp. has put LunaCorp's privately funded Lunar Rover Expedition on the road to reality by issuing a contract for LunaCorp's plan to mount a commercial mission to the moon in 1999. Launched by a Russian rocket, LunaCorp's pair of intelligent robotic vehicles will trek 1,000 km on behalf of Earth-bound theme park visitors, corporate sponsors and science researchers.

The Expedition will allow direct public participation in the actual exploration, said LunaCorp president, David Gump. Sponsoring companies will be able to give their customers the ability to drive on the Moon by remote control and experience lunar exploration first hand. Citizen explorers will see high-definition live video displayed on motion platforms that reproduce the rovers' motion as they dip into craters, he added.

Despite Mitsubishi's automotive expertise, the wheeled robots are being designed by Carnegie Mellon University's Robotics Institute headed by robot pioneer William Red Whittaker. One aim of the $200 million expedition is to forge links between commercial customers and scientists who will receive access to the Moon at a fraction of the cost of traditional government missions.

Once their wheels settle into the lunar dust, the rover duo will begin their two year journey at the historic Apollo 11 site. Although some have questioned leaving tire tracks near humankind's first footsteps on the Moon, Whittaker insists the trundling rovers will not disturb the area. After touring Tranquility Base the rovers will set off on a 1,000 km trek north to visit the wreck of the Ranger 8 probe and a Surveyor spacecraft. Visits to Apollo 17's landing site and lost Soviet Lunakhod rovers are also on the itinerary.

But LunaCorp will deliver more than just a celestial travelogue. The company promises the first interactive space exploration experience by actually leaving the driving to you - the public. Using robotic sensors to Tele-Explore the Moon, visitors to Mission Control - dubbed the Lunar Expedition Pavilion - will enjoy the ultimate E ticket ride. Visitors will ride with the robots on a slow-motion, roller-coaster ride over lunar hills and craters - seeing, feeling and hearing everything the robots encounter. With a joystick in hand a few lucky tele-tourists will drive the rovers themselves. Other visitors will joyride on motion platforms, viewing a 360-degree panorama of the lunar terrain while actually feeling the rover's wheels crunch over lunar rock.

Currently, LunaCorp is negotiating with several established theme parks and mall developers for US theme park rights. The company is also sitting around the table with media firms who want to beam video from the rover's moving eye to a mass audience via television. High-profile promotional events such as a first driver contest and Third Millenium Celebration are also in the works.

Scientific research will also be riding shotgun on this privately funded mission, and LunaCorp claims that negotiations for science payloads are already underway. For a down-to-earth price of $7,000/hour researchers can purchase operational time on the rover and focus on astronomical observations from the lunar surface, plus survey geologic structures and perform crustal analysis. Small experimental payloads can also hitch a ride for $1.2 million/kilogram. If successful, LunaCorp's lunar trek may pave the way for future commercial missions and give new meaning to the word Highway. Happy motoring!


Has DOD also sent secret missions to the surface of the moon ? Why not ?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:44
mozel (@T1) ID#153110:
Not intentionally. What was the question, again, if you please.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:43
SDRer (IMF steadies Brazil meltdown) ID#93127:

The Brazilian government and the International Monetary
Fund say they have reached agreement on an emergency austerity deal to help Brazil staving off an
economic meltdown.

All is now reduced to boiler room pitches…

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:23
aurator (nite, really, nite/) ID#25490:
You gotta be quicker on ze draw! The exerpt you saw popped my eyes too.

We shall watch this melt-down together, yes?


didja get my golden lance last night? Incoming kitcoite!

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:19
aurator (Books on Hard Times.) ID#25490:
floods in lower N Island. Train washed away, other derailments, power outages, noone hurt.

Looks like shorts for weekend, I love summer. ( Don't fit into the polka dots of last summer. )

Forgot who was asking about books on the depression. Might I suggest Woody Guthrie's Bound for Glory. The greatest Merkan poet of his generation describes in his own words the Depression. Then there's that Steinbeck fella, Grapes of Wrath, and Of Mice and Men. OR, if you really want to read of depressions, I suggest Dickens' Hard Times, actually, anything by Dickens. Perhaps Twain for the end of last century I'm still looking for Swift's diaries and

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:18
ChasAbar (from earlier post...) ID#340344:
Speaking of the widening gap in interest rates...
That is an indication there is a drying up of liquidity and a general run towards quality which may have reached a stage that simply doesn't make any sense, he said.
Oh, yeah? I think you're in the minority there, Buster. The other guys are voting with their dollars that it *does* make sense and IMO you ain't seen nothin' yet.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:16
Donald (Currency trading now at $1.5 trillion per day; much of it just plain gambling.) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:09
John Disney (.. and the Don .. he likes Puccini ..) ID#24135:
.. Ok Mozel ..
Ill accept that the Mafia and the gobmint are essentially
one and the same .. I just prefer pasta to cheese burgers.

.. For RJ/gunrunner ..
Keep it up .. but when are you gonna start getting
nasty ?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:03
ChasAbar (gunrunner,) ID#340344:
Please check out what this site is about, and who should and should not be posting here, or even lurking hereabouts. If lurk you must, then please go to the back of the room and lurk quietly. Please, no whining. This site is for the big kids. Put your head back on, think about what r those expensive lessons have taught you, and when you're able, try again like ( most of ) the rest of us. C'mon!

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:02
EB (hay U zeelander) ID#187109:
My paw always said.....

plan yer wurk....and wurk yer plan......

din't knowd wut he meant 'till now.............DUH ;- )


hows dat hurry cane?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:02
aurator () ID#25490:
Thank you for sterling work with news links,

McDonough is also the chairman of the Basle Committee on Banking Supervision of the Bank for International Settlements ( BIS ) :

`That is an indication there is a drying up of liquidity and a general run towards quality which may have reached a stage that simply doesn't make any sense,''


They ain't seen nothing yet. Wait till they remember REAL quality, gold


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 05:00
Donald (Bank of England says U.S. rate cut was ill advised.) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 04:58
tolerant1 (mozel, Namaste', gulps and puffs to ya...) ID#31868:
YOU did not answer the question...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 04:56
zeke (Gold) ID#25257:
Daggrafiek GD shows Gold up 1.70 at 10:35 their time.
Any other PM news, anyone?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 04:53
Donald (Fed trying to avoid a credit crunch) ID#26793:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 04:50
EB (RJ - Gunny) ID#187109:
Are we to choose sides?

You two need to talk on the telephone.



Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 04:46
aurator (Double take...) ID#25490:
Duz that mean you not planning for the end of the wurld?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 04:45
ChasAbar (RJ,) ID#340344:
I was going to respond to gunrunner's goofy shot at you, but
I figured he just wasn't worth the time. 95% of us have a ton of respect for you, especially because it can be shown who you are, that you are a real-world person. OK, I'll write an abbreviated version.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 04:41
EB (Yardeni Schmardeni) ID#187109:
He was the same guy that said DOW 10,000 or 15,000............or some CRAP like that. I guess we all change our tune day to day.

personally I think that DOW 10,000 is not too unreasonable......................of course I am the same guy that thinks the Padres can still WIN the 'World Series' ( US Baseball ) ................. ( like cricket but slightly less boring ) ...................hmmmm... snooze


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 04:19
ChasAbar (Yardeni) ID#340344:
Copyright © 1998 ChasAbar/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Sharefin posted an article about Ed Yardini's predictions at 10:09 on 10-20. Lots of people have lots of ideas, so I want to bring your attention again to that post. Ed Yardeni was ( and I believe I have this 100% correct ) the most accurate of all ( over 100 ) analysts in predicting the ending prime rate and the annual % of inflation for the calendar year 1997. This guy deserves our attention. Thank you, Sharefin, for being right up at/near the top of our pyramid of most valuable posters. ( MVPs )
Immensely helpful, generous in giving of time which is more valuable than any PMs, and with nothing to sell, no axe to grind, no ego to feed.
And Sharefin, if somebody nitpicks your writings, just realize that he cannot even see the top of the pyramid from where he crouches.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 04:10
tolerant1 (CompGeek, Namaste' gulps and puffs to ya) ID#31868:
a privilege...yup...I have no schedule when Kindness arrives...little fingers grasp and toes scrunch the carpets...shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...this is a special place we be in...and then coins fall from their ears...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 04:07
au*stralian (mozel , your obsession with exposing ) ID#25174:
Copyright © 1998 au*stralian/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
the corrupt nature of government seems to be missing the point that the public at large is too comfortable to risk losing any 'benefits' they associate with aligning themselves with big brother. All governments work on fostering a scarcity consciousness to engender fear of 'them' taking away our ---- ( insert pet lust ) . Social security is simply insurance to not produce a large group of people with nothing to lose. Unfortunately economic rationalism has now stripped away most of that, so this group is assured of increasing until critical mass is achieved at approximately 14 percent ( 1/e*e ) of the total free population. At this point a phase transition is very likely to occur with a quantum jump to a completely different society ( one example being the french/russian revolutions ) . One solution is to incarcerate sufficient individuals to remove them from the population at large , thus explaining the current surge in jail population. Eventually, however the strain on society will be too great and the turbulence will rip the socio-economic fabric. As usual, most people will be stunned by events and be carried along in a maelstrom, control of the future being grasped by those individuals able to lead in great turmoil. Those leaders are generally ideologically strong individuals ( America's founding fathers ) who'se political innovation gradually gives way to the dogma of the party. From this time on, corruption and decay will haunt that regime until the cycle repeats.
Its been happening for five thousand years - no reason why it should stop now.
You canna change the laws of physics !!!

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 04:04
Dabchick (Tuesday's Gold and Silver Lease Rates....there seems to be a habng up in posting since 03:44 this is) ID#258195:
Copyright © 1998 Dabchick/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
my second attempt.
For Tues 20 Oct calculated from data published in today's FT.
GOLD------------1- month--------3-month--------6- month---------12- month
Gold Lease Rate--0.53---------------1.32-------------1.44-----------------1.77
( Change ) ----- ( + 0.04 ) -------- ( + 0.03 ) ------- ( + 0.02 ) ------------ ( - 0.01 )

SILVER----------1- month--------3- month-------6- month----------12- month
Silver Lend Rate----4.40--------------3.70--------------2.80-----------------2.40
Silver Lease Rate---0.82--------------1.52--------------2.14-----------------2.29
( Change ) ------- ( - 0.40 ) -------- ( - 0.40 ) ------- ( - 0.30 ) ----------- ( - 0.20 )
The lines labelled ( Change ) = change in lease rates since previous day's figures.
MGLR and Silver Lending Rates are supplied to the FT by NM Rothschild .

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 03:44
mozel (@JohnD) ID#153102:
The current don in these parts goes by the name of Clinton and the reports are that those on good terms with him are very well rewarded. See Bugall and his stock profits for a tiny, local instance. Be not deceived. They are all the same.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 03:35
John Disney (I wont have that, Suh) ID#24135:
For Mozel
Gommint by the Mafia IS different than gommint under
war powers ..
Mafia rule is much better .. provided you got a
good equation with the Don.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 03:34
mozel (@JohnD) ID#153102:
Thanks. Not running.

Not to discourage your wonderful sense of humor, but another group of organized criminals, aka Tutsi or anything else, is not what I am on lookout for.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 03:30
John Disney (Whats that smell ?) ID#24135:
for BUgal ..
I found your would be humourous piece to the
effect that Netanyahu smells better than Arafat a
brilliant example of stereotypical US thought and
I suggest you seek counselling ..

For Brother Oris ..
Furryfukgan is totally unrepresentative of Moslem
thought.. most ( I can do it too ) Turks are not
religious .. but are Moslem .. and are top guys in
my experience .. ( 4 years in Istanbul ) .. Saudis OK
but not my favorites ( 2 years in Dahran ) .

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 03:24
mozel (@CompuGeek @T1 @RAN @EJ) ID#153102:
Copyright © 1998 mozel/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
@CompuGeek Nope, thanks for asking.

@T1 You think you know, perhaps, the meaning of the word citizen in English. It is a legal word. Are we even taught how to find the meaning of legal words ? So many words that we think are English are actually legal when spoken by politicians, lawyers, and judges and parroted by journalists and others further down the food chain. We think we understand and they let us persist in our misunderstanding.

@T1 & RAN What you and RAN have missed, I think, comprehending from my posts is that government by war powers is no different than organized crime. Government by war powers has a more complete and more complicated code than the Mafia, but otherwise differs not at all. The Constitution was to establish justice, which is by Law. The Law cannot, must not, and never has rewarded fraud. But, government by war powers sanctions official fraud and fraud by its favored corporations and individuals. So, it is government that is literally against or hostile to the Law. It is hostile to truth telling, to morality based on natural law and/or Christianity, and to honesty. ( Military officers who don't get this will be purged. ) It is organized crime. America has been under government by war powers since Lincoln. In 1933 FDR advanced government by war powers further. Does your state have a war powers act that corresponds with the federal national emergency act of 1933 ? Look very, very hard before you say no. Because deception, any deception necessary to preserve their power in government, is a legal right under the law of nations. The law of nations is might makes right; it is law for highly organized crime.

@EJ Call the grantor of an entitlement Governor, Reperesentative, Commissioner, Commissar or what they will, it is all the same. Do you understand what it means to say I am a US citizen or I am a registered voter ? Are you an associate to organized crime by choice ?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 03:22
CompGeek (@T1 - ) ID#343259:
email sent Will check tomorrow.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 03:18
ravenfire (grim trade figures from Japan Inc.) ID#333126:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 03:13
John Disney (Suh ...) ID#24135:
for General Mozel ..
Welcome here any time if you need to hole up. We
can discuss strategy ..
My Tutzi force ( now on duty in Eastern Zaire ) can be
at your disposal in two weeks time .. They are under
the command of Zulu colonel Stonewall Shabalala ..
alias Sugar Boy .. nice guy if you dont get on his
bad side.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 03:00
John Disney (platinum .. comments) ID#24135:
Copyright © 1998 John Disney/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
For Gianni D'oro
Some platinum notes .. to clarify some of the points
you made about RSA/Russia .. RSA supplies the bulk
of the worlds platinum .. almost 75 % in fact. Russia
supplies less than 20 %.
On the demand side .. jewellery demand is platinum's
largest end use.. 43 % . ( most of it to Japan ) .
Autocatalyst in second place .. at 37% of total
The palladium picture is different .. Russia is
Major supplier .. at 2/3 of total .. and autocatalyst
is main demand component at about half.. electrical
use second.

Platinum was never touched during sanctions days ..
.. major side benefit of sanctions was that RSA
banking industry is extremely independent of world
banking system .. this will stand them in good stead
sooner or later.
The opinions expressed by mole to the effect that
most or many people believe that RSA will self
destruct after goofball Mandela resigns have
probably lead some of the ivy league geniuses in
the hedge funds to play Russian paper rather than
high yielding RSA instruments.. These boys only
know what they read in the mind controlled US press
and are probably unaware that RSA has never defaulted
on a debt .. even during sanctions days.. so they are
now in the process of losing their @ss.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:57
au*stralian (Reductionists in all forms will) ID#25174:
Copyright © 1998 au*stralian/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
be forever discussing the global financial state from myopic and self centred paradigms - but thats cool because the system relies on this local behaviour to seek its most efficient state.
The global economy is currently throwing away interconnections like neurons after a drinking spree. This will have the effect of pulling us all into protectionist states with isolated economies unable/afraid to trade for some time to come and volatility very low. Greenspin in his human intuitive way is trying to forestall this inevitable result even if he doesnt know the physics of why he is doing it.
For the cynics consider:=
Many asian countries have established trading controls - cut the link.
Russia is an isolated pariah - links cut by us.
South american flight capital in freefall - cut the link.
Japan pulling its money back home to prop up infrastructure - links cut.
Europe is self absorbed - doesnt want to get involved
US consumers starting to pull back on spending, banks stingy - no sale
Hedge funds put on detention for global mischief - cant play anymore
The result IMHO:=
a stationary attractor for the DOW of around 7900
Gold circling $297 ( 294-300 ) unless something peturbs the system ( I hope ) .
Utilities stocks will be best.
Export sensitive stocks will sink.

NOTE: The above is not intended to be trading or investment advice and any investment decisions should be based on your own personal assessment and circumstances. In other words use your own mind and dont let other people tell you what to do . Freedom of thought is the one god given gift that you should never surrender - it is what makes you different to your pet dog.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:47
tolerant1 (CompGeek, Namaste' gulps...puffs to ya...theez a man you speeeak of...Hmmmmmmm) ID#31868: is my email and I would recieve such a gift with Honor and tell you then...I will send you the address...Thank YOU for this...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:43
tolerant1 (EJ, Namaste' gulps and puffs back at ya..the GREAT state of TX...rainin huh...) ID#31868:
feast or famine eh...Commander Cody and His Lost Planet Airmen... ...Armadillo World Headquarters...God's good green gravey man...Willie Nelson cd helped me save my sanity on a flight cross country with a savage Flight Attendant...wuff...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:39
sharefin (RJ - Funny old world that it is.) ID#284255:
A few years back, when I was on the boats.
Comments like that, mentioned at the innumerable p*ss-ups, would have been howled down, with hoots of derision.

Those dudes were tough as nails.
And thought little of thoughts that extended far beyond fishing, drinking and f***ing.

Now I could well imagine you and I,
Sailing the seven seas with copious quantities of fine alchohol,
Telling tall tales and writing yards of prose.
Snubbing an eye to those hardy types.

Such is life.

Dad liked your verse so much and I had to print it out for him.
He disliked the thought of such wisdom and prose,
Passing evermore into the annals of cyber-space.
I agree wholeheartedly.


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:32
CompGeek (@T1) ID#343259:
Know John Bilezikjian? If not, a CD will be sent.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:30
Envy (@EJ) ID#219363:
Given management vs. leadership, I prefer leaders being in charge. Gotta hate the big corps that think of their customers as revenue sources instead of trying to address their real needs - leadership always pays off in the end, that's why young leaders build empires from nothing, and managers buy things that are already making money. Put a manager on the street with shoes and fifty bucks, he'd probably kill himself. Put a leader on the street naked with no money, and he'll come back with an paid army and kick your ass.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:30
EJ (mozel ) ID#229207:
Are you talking about that guy who runs the IMF? :- )

France is the triumph of the State over the Individual.

Know what they say about French automobile design? The French imitate no one and no one imitates the French. Same goes for their gummit.

Time for bed. Meetings early tomorrow...


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:30
CompGeek (@Mozel) ID#343259:
Anything anyone can do?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:29
tolerant1 (mozel, Namaste' gulps and puffs to ya...was worried bout ya...must'uve missed some) ID#31868:
of the choice dialogue here in the wall-less room known as Kitco...but my friend...English is such a vague word means ONE thing and one thing ONLY...afterall...does an American speak English?

or does an American speak in his native tongue and is covered by what you say and or speak of...the previous statement is poor...I know...but you understand what I am

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:29
Obsidian (Mozel:) ID#237299:
Good to hear those Texas Rangers can't find their man.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:27
EJ (tolerant1 ) ID#229207:
A puff and a gulp to you from TX where it's finally stopped raining. On the road again.

Power breeds arrogance breeds carelessness breeds errors breeds failure.

It's an old story.


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:24
Miro (@crazytimes and remote places -will report after my sailing trip;-)) ID#347457:
Crazytimes, no I have not been there, however, in April next year I'll be sailing around and between French Polynesia islands ( Marquesas and Tahiti ) That place would not be bad at all ;- )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:23
EJ (Envy) ID#229207:
Is all about risk. The board's always asking, Is this guy a lower or higher risk than someone else to make money for stockholders? Usually it's the guy who's there... the devil they know. But if you have a consistent record of errors or one really big f*ck-up, this makes a new guy less risky than keeping you. You're outa there.

It's a tough racket. I know.


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:21
Obsidian (Coulter's resignation will probably have two ripple effects:) ID#237299:
1. the other CEO's will suddenly realize that their own heads are *really* on the block- thus much more book shuffling to try to keep their own exposures form becoming public.

2. efforts ( more than we've seen ) to take positions in the market to assist the positions of the hedge funds. I'm not sure how they would do this except by the same model that Greenspan brokered for LTCM

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:20
mozel (@ROR aka The Little Communist - Facist Prince) ID#153110:
All men are created equal. No man is entitled. No title is or ever was earned. Titles are granted by Sovereigns to subjects. Or by Commissars to comrades. Or by Fascist Commissioners to citizens.
Nobody ever had or does have any contract right to benefits from government, whether Social Security or any other. Fraud begets fraud.

No, they haven't located my body yet.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:20
tolerant1 (EJ, Namaste' gulps and puffs from the Island that is Long...regarding your last post) ID#31868:
ah,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha, is now laughable eh...the high and oh so they clowns in a circus ring...ill winds approach and so many who can afford to lose nothing are going to wake up to the MOST rude of awakenings...yup..uh huh...and this is the tip of the iceberg..............

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:18
Envy (@EJ) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I never understood the big corp philosophy of placing blame and firing someone who had made a mistake, even one like that. Actually, I remember a story, probably said of any discipline, but in this case it's about high technology. Story goes something like - guy walks into the CEO's office and sits down, looks nervous. CEO asks him what's wrong, guy explains how a project went crazy and he lost millions of company R&D dollars, that a bunch of his engineers quit as a result, and that they lost a big customer because of it. CEO looks annoyed. Guy puts a piece of paper on the desk, CEO asks what it is, It's my resignation, and the CEO goes ballistic and yells Why are you resigning ?, guy says, I just told you why!, and the CEO says You can't resign, I won't let you, I just spent millions on your education.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:18
EJ (Obsidian ) ID#229207:
I can't reassure you that this beast won't stop rising, but I get the feeling that the resignation of the BoA pres, a lousy Q3 for GenRad and Raytheon, bad news on hedge fund Paloma Partners Management Co., and news of lower capital spending on high tech might cool it off a bit, tho. Forget about the Japanese. Everyone knows they're nuts.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:11
EJ (FOCUS-Coulter, BankAmerica heir-apparent, resigns) ID#229207:
``It is with regret that I announce my resignation effective Oct. 30. The decision was extremely difficult for me, both personally and professionally,'' Coulter said, adding BankAmerica remained financially sound despite the third-quarter losses.

Guess ya shoulda thought of that before you approved that loan, big boy.

Remained financially sound despite the third-quarter losses. Imagine my relief.


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:09
Obsidian (EJ:) ID#237299:
Todays purchase was some DJX dec83 ( but I've got some practicaly worthless novembers out there from a few weeks ago )

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:03
Obsidian (Add to those announcements:) ID#237299:
two more class actions against BofA

IBM post huge loss on asia market ( I think it was in billions )
announced right after closing bell

Someone posted earlier story @ big drop today after 2pm was because another hedgefund in deep trouble.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:03
EJ (Obsidian ) ID#229207:
I'm betting that this rally's petering out, bulls losing their nerve. Your puts for Fri?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 02:00
Envy (@Obsidian) ID#219363:
Copyright © 1998 Envy/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I wouldn't worry too much about it. I had some bids out forever on PUT options against a couple of stocks and my broker finally called me yesterday saying they'd been picked up, actually, he was apologizing to me that they'd been picked up *snicker*. He said he was sorry he hadn't paid attention to the account or he would have called me and reminded me that the bids were still sitting out there - like that I had forgotten they were out there or something *grin*. I told him he worries too much. I think when things look the bleakest for the bears, it's time to buy, especially against this chart.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 01:57
2BR02B? () ID#266105:

EJ ( Tomorrow's newspaper ) ID#229207:
NEW YORK, Oct. 21 ( Reuters )

* David Coulter, the president of the newly merged BankAmerica Corp. ( NYSE:BAC - news ) , resigned days after the company stunned investors when it announced huge losses because of a loan to a hedge fund.

Governments in Thailand, Korea, Japan, Indonesia.

The pres of B of A!!!!

Geez, now it's getting serious.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 01:47
EJ (Tomorrow's newspaper) ID#229207:
NEW YORK, Oct. 21 ( Reuters ) - The New York Times reported the following business stories Wednesday:

* The U.S. Commerce Department provided a concrete measure of the effects of the global economic downturn on the American economy, reporting that the nation's trade deficit widened by $2.2 billion in August to $16.77 billion.

* David Coulter, the president of the newly merged BankAmerica Corp. ( NYSE:BAC - news ) , resigned days after the company stunned investors when it announced huge losses because of a loan to a hedge fund.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 01:47
Obsidian (EJ: ) ID#237299:
Makes me slightly ill. I bought some more index puts today. Looks like wall street will do another 100-200 bump tomorrow.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 01:42
EJ (Japanese hystrionics) ID#229207:
Japan Nikkei 225 ^N225 1:39AM 14298.80 +490.75 +3.55%

This has gotta be making even the bulls nervous.

Brazil's $80B short-term debt due Dec. 31, 1998: 70 days and counting...


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 01:34
crazytimes (Y2K) ID#344326:
I've been thinking about some of the best places in the world to be for Y2K. I think some of the best are probably Tristan da Chuna, St. Helena, and Ascension. Very isolated and must be self-sufficient. Any Kitcoites been to any of these Islands?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 01:24
morbius (@oris) ID#35757:
You haven't hurt my feelins...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 01:12
BUGal (Article on Gold backed Rubles for Russkies) ID#206235:
Copyright © 1998 BUGal/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
This interesting piece alternately indicates Gold backed currency and/or minted Gold coins as medium of exchange might work....on the other hand, the last paragraph indicates there isn't enough Gold in all mother Russia to make such a scheme work.

Hmmm, if Russia has an economy that is a tiny tiny fraction of the U.S. economy, less than 2% even...and if THEY don't have enough Gold to make such a scheme feasable....I wonder how we'd ever do such a thing here if we were all so inclined?

Russia gold coin plan gets half-hearted welcome
12:28 p.m. Oct 19, 1998 Eastern

By Patrick Chalmers

LONDON ( Reuters ) - Western economists Monday cheered Russia's plan to fix its economic problems by issuing gold and silver-backed roubles, but they want more details about the monetary tactic first employed in the early years of Communism.

While some saw the idea as a welcome tonic for investor confidence, others dismissed it as tinkering at the edges of Russia's deep-rooted financial crisis, doubting there was enough state gold to make it work.

``It's not so outlandish. I think something similar happened in 1921 after a period of high inflation and civil war,'' said Professor Lord Desai at the London School of Economics.

``Given the completely idiotic conditions they have got themselves into, this is probably better than anything else. I thought they would flood the markets with roubles and they are obviously not going to do that,'' he said.

``I would say this is a clever move. It's quite imaginative.''

Dmitry Ignatyev, deputy head of Russia's state precious metals reserve Gokhran, told NTV on Sunday that final talks were under way with Central Bank Chairman Viktor Gerashchenko.

He said Gerashchenko would decide if the project gets the go-ahead, adding that between 100 billion and 200 billion roubles ( $6.25 billion and $12.5 billion ) worth of the coins could be issued.

If the plan is approved, the coins could be used as a means of payment and be traded on exchanges.

``In order to back 30-40 billion roubles, we need to mint something like 100 ( metric ) tons of gold. But now, in the first stage perhaps as an experiment, we may be talking of minting 10-30 tons of gold and silver coins,'' Ignatyev said.

One Russian analyst, who asked not to be identified, said the plan amounted to a de facto currency board, pegging the rouble to the dollar.

``It's more or less the same as a currency board. The difference is that there's a state monopoly on the supply of gold,'' he said.

But issuing coins would be premature without first defining fiscal and monetary policy, the analyst said.

``In the absence of that, any move on this is meaningless. It's like figuring out the number of bolts you need for the wheels of a car while the wheels are off and the engine's stopped,'' he said.

Charles Blitzer, chief economist of emerging markets at Donaldson, Lufkin & Jenrette said coins would vanish under mattresses as fast as they were struck.

``These gold coins are never going to be a medium of exchange in Russia. There's just not going to be enough gold for that.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 01:09
oris (morbius) ID#238422:
I perfectly understand what you are saying...
By the way, use of electricity to fight cannibals -
was it an original French idea or the great writer
copied it from the American electric chair? Don't exactly
remember dates....what do you think?

In regard to black person approaching in the dark - never
thought about it, but Fukgargan is a piece of sh*t...sorry.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 01:03
RJ (..... LGB & Share* .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

Now THAT was funny......... Salute!

*Fin -

You have the gentle heart of a poet
The same can be found within mine own
Having read your words, and re-read them all
I feel as if some keen knowledge of the man
May be held swimmingly clear in gentle wake
A surface ripple, to be sure
But not too little enough to catch some measure

This rounding of the heart, blending hard edge
Suits a worthy pursuit of any man of gentle breeding
Gentle is wisest for surely knowing the best in a man
And best may be found in part and moment
As one rises to smite thy families foes
To once again offer safe pillows for your children's heads

In this person and mode have I wakened
And, in truth, to judge.... as fair or foul
Which wind carries oer our temperate home
The saddened hand that writes all of this

Still yearns to be still

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:54
morbius (@oris) ID#35757:
To paraphrase Captain Nemo in Twenty thousand Leagues Under the Sea ( Walt Disney )

..Those cannibals eat liars with the same enthusiam that they eat honest men

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:53
BUGal (@ RJ.... ) ID#206235:
Copyright © 1998 BUGal/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
RJ you said.... Were are the words of scorn and derision towards Gunny, by the same folks who complain about me whenever I defend myself far better than the attacker attacked? Your words are being held back for some reason.

RJ, this is something that has always so baffled me about Kitco. I've seen incredible heaps of umwarranted derision heaped on certain posters here with nary a word of protest ever spoken by the GoldBug LONG as the person being unfairly smeared is not some card carrying member of some ideological GoldBug camp.

You know...., all paper will burn, DOW will crash, cizilization will end, Y2K will destroy all, Another is a diety, Gold has always been a great investment and store of value/insurance policy, even when it drops for 20 years like a stone ...etc etc folks.... anyone who doesn't challenge this RIGID Dogma with ( dare I say it ) a REALITY check..... is essentially free to spout any inflammatory personal insulting cowardly diatribe they wish.

But let someone who has no ideological axe to grind say ANYthing at all like Ahhhh, isn't the emperor like,uhhh naked?

And they come in for immediate capital punishment.

Baffling for a group of open minded and enlightened thinkers that such hypocrisy is so blatant. For example...look at the polite and gentlemanly Realistic. For merely posting Reality checks with nary a WORD of personal insult....he is continuously exposed to personal insults of all types.

Don't get me wrong Kitco...I do not paint you all with this brush. There are so many great minds here...that's why I read and visit here. This double standard.....Maybe it's the Kitco version of political correctness...something I've never liked in any form.

I find the Sack man's unprovoked, cowardly, whining, small minded, little snipes toward you to be some of the most reprehensibkle behaviour I've ever seen here. You are well justified in taking offense and treating him to what he/it deserves.


Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:51
tolerant1 (cherokee, Namaste' gulps and puffs to ya...the reading in your last post...a portion) ID#31868:
dealt with divide and conquer...thousands of years old point being that I am not a Tequila-American...I am an American...look at the forms, etc, that Americans are taught to sign from birth going forward...
and they have not a clue...I think the term is polarize...yup...uh huh...

Old tactic...wait for my book...Three Days of the Sombrero...and then the movie...heh...heh...heh...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:51
morbius (@oris) ID#35757:
I don't like him much either. The question: If you were in a dark alley, and a black man approached, would hope he was the Nation of Islam, or not?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:47
cherokee () ID#288232:

read the 0015 url...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:43
cherokee () ID#288232:


what brought your hand to that matter?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:43
ROR (The Test for Knowimg ) ID#412286:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:39
ROR (Financial people and accountants ) ID#412286:
are killing the country. We should employ them to evaluate IMF give a ways to the rich and the institutions. 18 BILLION FOR IMF but only 1.7BILLION to home health care after the industry appropriately pled poverty. Lets give 18 billion for Americans if we can give it to the rich. If I hear the word personal responsability with respect to the ENTITLEMENTS WHICH HAVE BEEN EARNED ..I will become nauseous. The ACCOUNTANTS AND FINANCE BOYS ARE KILLING SOCIETY ACTION HAS TO BE a fairly civilized manner of course.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:38
sharefin (RJ - Your angst is vitriolic.) ID#284255:
And tedious.
But makes for good reading. ^o-o^

To test your phone lines to see if they're tapped dial
( 202 ) 543-9994 and listen for the following:

Long tone = clear line
Short tones = local tap
Long/short tones = Federal tap

For the disbelievers of Y2k

And use your intellect.

The final issue I will discuss today is contingency planning. Much has been said about the need to develop contingency plans for the Year 2000 conversion, and I fully support these efforts. We need contingency plans in place for two main reasons. First, to ensure that we have considered how to handle the inevitable disruptions that will occur as a result of Year 2000, and second, to help build confidence that disruptions will not have systemic consequences. In the process of contingency planning, we must also keep in mind that it is prudent to consider the possibility of some very serious, but improbable, events.

Honest reality from the top?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:35
BUGal (@ Caper...Gunny & RJ) ID#206235:
Copyright © 1998 BUGal/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Netanyahu and Arafat eh? Welllll, I DEFINITELY place my vote for RJ as Netanyahu.

Gunny certainly qualifies in theArafat role.

Hmmm, Netanyahu is a genuine war hero. A genuine statesman. A logical, anaalytical, tough but fair, leader of the world's toughest little state.

Arafat? Well, you know the old joke about sheep. Arafat's only accomplishment is training some mindless zealots to kill women & children. Oh that and he wears a mean headrag. But have you ever caught a whiff? If smells could kill.......

And speaking of Arafat, he had a younger brother named JeHose*fat. Oh me oh my. Here's JeHose*fat's little story. JeHose*fat went down to Wall Street one day and said Ohh broker man... I wanna make lots of money on Gold stocks..but I know nothing and I don't wanna know anything or learn anything.....can you help?

Goldstock broker FS, took one look at JeHose*fat said Oh yes, have I got a deal for you. LEVERAGE is what you get in Gold stocks. Yep, when that yellow stuff soars you'll make 50 times yer money boy....git yerself some Pegasus, some Bre-X, and some guns for good measure. Just look at these junior charts...why we can get you somethin for nothin and all Wall street stocks will soon burn

Oh boy JeHose*fat sayz.... Git me some will ya?

Course we know the happy ending. Gold dropped to a mere shadow of it's former self. Gold stocks and stock funds went down 90%. Pegasus and Bre-X were all gone. Let's check back on our buddy JeHose*fat.

all gone? Whaddya MEAN I'm responsible for my own investments? Oh whinnneeee, oh waaaa waaaaa waaaaa, dontcha know I need a big daddy Govmint to look after my interests? Gimme it back! Now! I just want what I want by greed...I shouldn't have to pay if'n it goes down!!! Waaaaa waaaaa....waaaaaa......I'm a bitter man now......where's my mama's teat? Waaaaa waaaaa waaaaaa......Who's gonna make my decisions for me ? I'm supposed to? It ISN'Y FAIR....waaaaaaa

I gotta go find me a mean old metal saleman to blame for my stupidity..and hound him lfor my dumbness..blame him for my woes....waaaaa...waaaa

But did JeHose*fat learn from his experience? Decide to educate himself? Do some independant study? Weigh all strategies and investment scenarios? From a variety of sources? Learn to take responsibility for his own life?

Nope...still lookin to blame someone else for his own decisions.

The sad story of JeHose*fat

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:34
EJ (Aragorn III ) ID#229207:
Thank you for the explanation about gold vs. platinum. Very thoughtful. The great part of life is gaining a new insight about something that's right in front of you.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:33
tolerant1 (cherokee, Namaste' gulps and puff from the Island that is to the matter) ID#31868:
at hand...I have always thought that anyone and I MEAN anyone who considers themselves a hyphenated American is toast...I am an American and that is that...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:25
oris (morbius) ID#238422:
I do not belive that Furkagan is a right islam man.
Islam in Turkey or Uzbekistan is different than this
SOB tries to promote....In general, I'm not talking
islam, I'm talking about this stinking racist only...

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:21
Caper (Kitco Konspiracies) ID#300202:
They exist!!!!!!

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:20
Savage (Low, low cost silver calls with (hopefully) no expiration...) ID#290202:
SSC hit 52 week low today 5/8 ( intraday ) on TRIPLE volume.

Que pasa?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:15
cherokee () ID#288232:

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:12
RJ (... One Minute Theater .....) ID#411259:
Copyright © 1998 RJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

What's that you got there, Sid?
Just a sack.
Dunno, Zebadia, let's look.
Say's right here it's a Lying-Sack-O-Gunny.
Let's look.
What's that?
What is it?
Never seen nothing like it, have you, Sid?
Never have, and never hope to again, Z.
Throw it away.
Hell no, Zebadia, that stuff is NASTY……
Waddaya think it is?
Looks like old bathtub grout.
Yeah, with that green moldy stuff
Not precisely grout, though…..
More like that stuff around the edge of one of those still ponds
Yeah, not the pond scum itself…..
But, that kinda semi hardened slime around the edge.
Yep. That's it.
Waddaya wanta do with it?
Put it back where you found it…..
Over in this here garbage pile?

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:11
morbius (@oris) ID#35757:
I will get in touch IF

re: Farakan - Islam, primitive as it may be, is preferable to head hunting or canabalism ( or its american counterpart, gangbanging ) . It does have the saving grace of prohibiting usury.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:11
Caper (GOLD WILL EXPLODE) ID#300202:
No disclaimers Sue me if it doesn't.
Gunny & RJ like Netanyahoo & Arafat-will not go into a room together.
Ken Starr never discusses da case but he does leak in his sleep.

I'm off of here if someone tells me what my nutals r doin'

I've got plenty of the wothless sh#t.

Date: Wed Oct 21 1998 00:02
APH (NJ - SnP) ID#213135:
If you are able to watch the market tick by tick amd are working with a firm that gets your fills back to you quickly, I'd go market. if not use limit orders.

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