Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 23:59
blooper (JTF) ID#207145:
You're asking the wrong guy there for market advice. Also dont bet the correction is over. It has'nt even started.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 23:43
larryn__A (SA stocks in mutual fund) ID#32078:
ASA, traded on NYSE, is essentially a fund with about 98% in RSA. Other than that, Lexington Strategic Investments, STIVX, has over 75% at last count. USERX and GOLDX have big positions. Check Eaglewing page for further research.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 23:41
JTF (EB, where are you?) ID#57232:
EB: I'm impressed. You said that the market bull was continuing today. I looked at my charts, and it does look like our correction has ended. Probably more than the month-end rally phenomenon from the mutual fund accounts. Wonder what the Oldman is saying. Probably the same thing you are -- buy!
I think it will take at least a month for the markets to wilt if WJC's fortunes dwindle, and AG will eventually have to raise rates to stop this manic market. I don't know how long the current rally will last, so I wouldn't bet alot of money, but I should have bought some Fidelity select mutual funds today. More retail or Health care. Select retail went up 3% today. Asleep at the wheel. Spouse asked me if she should buy something too. At least I never sold some of my retail funds, so I wasn't totally out to lunch. Could have sold them right at the bottom of the correction. Like I did in 94.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 23:32
Tortfeasor (blooper) ID#371247:
Blooper I was just kidding about washing the dress. The only liberal I appreciate is Liberal, Kansas. This slug in the White House is going down; maybe a poor choice of words. Its a pity its about 6 years too late. Wow, gold up 50cents. Is there a rally underway? Friday is witching day. We'll see if the spooks come out.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 23:24
RJ (..... ! .....) ID#411259:


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 23:23
RJ (..... Going for the Record .....) ID#411259:



Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 23:23
RJ (..... This post makes it .....) ID#411259:

Four in a row


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 23:22
RJ (..... Robby .....) ID#411259:

A silver foil head wrap......



Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 23:20
RJ (..... Sevens .....) ID#411259:

I can not argue with your math, and I agree with the put protection.
When speaking of leverage, one must consider carry costs
Which can bite into the trade if held too long
I like your scenario, but look to January or February for any significant move in gold
I would probably wait a couple months before executing your strategy.

Tis true what you say about paying it off and taking delivery any time you choose
And the extra 5% would preclude a margin call
I like the way you think

You wanna buy some platinum?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 23:13
RJ (..... JTF .....) ID#411259:

In the film, Gattica your point was made all too clear.
We shed squillions of cells everywhere, everyday.
Each brimming with DNA
A strand of hair, a fingernail clipping
Reproductive juices, etc.

Its all there

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 23:05
Lurker 777 (RJ what if?) ID#317247:
RJ: How much Money do I need to leverage 100 1 oz. Phillarmonic’s REAL Gold coins?
Why not leverage the coins and buy a 100 oz. December 99 240 Put option to cover the downside risk?
Lets say gold is at $289 an oz., the coins cost $304 per oz., it only costs 25% control the coins and the Put option is $120 or $1.20 per oz..
$304 multiplied by 100 oz. then take 25% of that total and add the put option price of $120 for a total of $7,720.00! You wont ever have to worry about a margin call because the Put option is 21% ( $240 ) below $305 and the margin call is 25% ( $229 ) . PLUS you control 100 1oz. Gold coins for $77.20 per oz. and can take delivery by paying the 75% leveraged amount any time. WHAT AM I MISSING HERE

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 23:03
RJ (..... OLD GOLD .....) ID#411259:

Yes, it may come to pass that we do fool around with our gold
But official policy has been to just let it lie.

Also, you were very gracious some time back
In offering me an apology for past ills, real or perceived.
I would now like to offer the same to you in return.
For any comments I made, that may have injured, I am sorry.
I like this site a lot better now that the fighting has stopped.
I think most would agree.
Now if we could only get Mozel back on line
This place would start to look like days of old, yes?


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 23:01
robnoel__A (RJ....I have a way you can zap those things by hooking up a satellite dish to a micro-wave oven...) ID#411112:

you will need to wrap your head in silver
foil first outside of that its a breeze

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:59
JTF (G'Nite all! I'm overposted) ID#57232:
and probably wearing out my welcome. Just got over a cold so had some more time on my hands than usual.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:57
JTF (Thanks) ID#57232:
RJ: Thanks for your consistent forthrightness. That is what we need in all posts on Kitco -- it is easy for some to forget that.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:56
HighRise (Indonesian Grain Purchase) ID#401237:

Thursday July 30, 3:47 pm Eastern Time
Grains, Soybans Up on Export Hopes

The buying spate gave hope that Asian purchases may finally be on the rise.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:54
JTF (Missle trails) ID#57232:
RJ: Please make sure the Russians don't spot any of your Stingers. They're mighty nervous these days after the nuclear attack from the Norwegian weather satellite missle. Can't risk WWIII while you are downing black helicopters disguised as traffic copters.
I haven't seen one mysterious black helicopter in my part of the world -- I'm told that they can be absolutely silent, and do not need blades except to look like an ordinary copter. If I find one, do you want a ride?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:53
RJ (..... JTF .....) ID#411259:

Of course, I know no more than any of you about physical gold holdings of the USA. I have never seen this gold, nor has anyone I have ever met seen this gold. But a conspiracy to sell off our gold would necessarily be worldwide to be achieved. Each person you add to a conspiracy increases the likelihood that somebody will talk by tenfold, or a hundredfold. History has proven this as nothing remains a secret forever.

I trust that the gold is there the same way I trust that New Hampshire is where it should be. I have seen neither, but the holes they would leave should they turn up missing would be rather noticeable, yes?

As for AG pounding or supporting gold:
It is priced in US dollars. Affect the currency, you affect the POG.

We still have all our gold, officially valued at $42 per ounce.

Hell, At that price, even I would turn bullish.

I would

Go Gold


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:44
JTF (Thanks for the clarification) ID#57232:
Old Gold: I may have overinterpreted AG's comments. I suspect he has already manipulated the gold market to control the US dollar, as it has been known for some time that the US FED does not have the reserves to budge the US dollar -- unless they choose just the right moment. I think the trading volume for the dollar is over 1 trillion US per day. Gold trading volume is much thinner, so I would expect even AG would succumb, eventually.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:41
RJ (..... Its a bird its a plane its a Black HelBARUMPBABOOM .....) ID#411259:

Robby -

I know this.
I have taken to indiscriminately firing on anything that flies.
Bagged a Channel 11 Newscopter a few days ago
Not because they were part of the conspiracy
But because I am sick of the stupid traffic reports
And endless pictures of cars lined end to end
And the high speed freeway chases
That now seem to happen every week
And which, when occurring,
Tend to preempt The Simpsons

I live 3 miles from my office
I don’t commute
I just shoot
Gotta’ use up all these Stingers
Left over from the Afghani Resistance
The high explosive missiles
Are starting to sweat with age
And appear VERY unstable
Must put them to good use
On helicopters
That are no longer black……..?

OK & Away………….touseitorlooseit

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:40
Gold & Silver & Platinum Bug (KitKat & Block Cross Trades) ID#432214:
On Canadian exchanges nothing prevents a cross trade on a ridiculously low bid on a thinly traded stock. The cross trade can be executed anywhere between the bid and the ask. What the cross trade usually indicates is that someone is getting positioned, it is a pre-arranged sale. On a thinly traded stock such as a junior on Vancouver or Toronto where it is impossible to accumulate any quantity of a particular stock, the game is to have your bid well positioned so that you interfere with the cross trade, thus getting your volume order filled. But don't be too greedy and put a monster bid in the system because they will do the cross one cent above your bid and you will be hooped.

Go Gold

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:39
JTF (Derivatives trade leaving the US?) ID#57232:
Highrise: That looks like a highly significant post. Perhaps other Kitoites knew this already. Apparently we need to deregulate derivatives rather that up regulate them -- or face losing markets. Could it be this is why Comex silver is looking so dead? Is business is shifting to Europe because the trading climate is better?
Another thought -- what better way to get the Euro going than to make derivatives trading easier than it is in the US. Forget the ( long term? ) risks -- profit still rules the markets.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:34
OLD GOLD (leasing) ID#242325:
RJ: I take you at your word that the US does not now lease gold. But ALan Greenspan in his recent Congressional strongly hinted the US would lease bullion if POG went too high for his liking. What is too high Probably anything much over $350.

JTF: Greenspan did not say US is now leasing gold. But the threat of future leasing was thinly veiled.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:33
JTF (Clinton Testimony Aug 17 -- He will deny.) ID#57232:
All: Just had a talk with my dad -- he put me in my place. I got real excited about what would happen if WJC denies the Monicagate bit. He calmly pointed out the Kenneth Starr will need DNA from WJC, or he probably can't prove a thing about the affair. Just circumstantial evidence. The problem is -- WJC must willingly give the DNA, and he won't. You'd think my dad was a lawyer -- and DNA did not even exist ( labwise ) when he went to school. I guess those 25 extra years of knowledge do come in handy.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:33
HighRise (Derivatives) ID#401237:

Thursday July 30, 10:02 pm Eastern Time

Derivatives Watch--Summers warns trade may flee US.

“Failure to act could prompt U.S. banks to take their business elsewhere, never to return, Summers told a hearing of the Senate Agriculture Committee.”


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:25
JTF (Gold Reserves and Leases/sales) ID#57232:
RJ: Great to see you with us more these days. Your comments about gold and silver are clearly among the most knowledgable here on Kitco.

I'd like to know more about how you know that the US FED has all the gold it says it has, and does not use derivatives. Your comment is interesting, given that AG himself said a few days ago that he actively pushes the price of gold down when it goes too high. How does he do it?
I wouldn't put it past the US government/FED to get other central banks to sell their gold instead -- they got others to help them in the 70's too, until France rebelled. We eventually sold alot of our gold, but it would have been worse had we not convinced our allies to sell their gold too.
And -- Germany has recently admitted to a boatload of gold loans.

MoreGold: Your 20:40 about $400/oz deep pockets. You are absolutely right that it would not take much to 'buy out' those gold producers who cannot handle $300/oz gold prices. The way I read this is that someone knows that he/she/it will be able to sell the gold at more than $400/oz price within a few years. No one is going to buy gold at $400/oz, unless they expect to make money. I sure would like to know who is so sure of this. Alot of those gold forwards were arranged before gold's deflationary surprise ( dollar wise ) in SEAsia. G Soros? The Rothschilds? The BIS? I think it could not be W Buffet -- it would not be secret very long. Perhaps the Saudis. Imagine how they might feel if gold did not rise as quickly as they expected. How about our mysterious foreign poster who is always predicting gold will rise?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:24
tolerant1 (STUDIO_R, Namaste', DUH! check your email...if I only had a brain...) ID#31867:
And to all a hearty wish of goodness to each and every one of you from the Island that is Long, I am toast and buttered on both sides...out to the festivities...stumble...stumble...

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:23
strat (fiveliter) ID#93241:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:22
fiveliter (Presidents come and Presidents go but bureacracies accumulate) ID#341312:
If you think that removing Mr. Clinton from office will change much of anything, well, I have to disagree. It's not that I like Clinton. I think this is one of the most corrupt and possibly THE most corrupt administration in our country's history. But our problems run much, much deeper than who's in the White House. For the last several decades, the federal government has continously grown in size and power, far beyond what is allotted to it in the Constitution. This has happened regardless of which party controlled which branch of government. Why? Because when something bad happens, Americans go running to Big Brother and say Do Something! Pass a law, or set up a fund, or create a regulatory agency. But DO something! Well, they did it. And now we're stuck with it. Stuck with bureacracies that have reached critical mass, like all bureacracies do, where they take on lives of their own and becoming increasingly concerned with one thing: continuing to grow. If the problem that they were established to deal with is eventually solved, they don't go away. They simply expand into related areas and thus ensure their continued survival. This will continue until people vote for candidates who would actually dismantle them. They won't do that until the taxation and disregard for individual rights becomes so severe that it is obvious on a personal level to a large segment of the population. Think about that the next time you try to decide between the right and left wings of our one party system. By the way, whatever happened to that Republican Revolution of '94? Doesn't look like much of revolution to me. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss-Roger Daltrey.
PS-as long as the CB's want to keep gold ridiculously cheap, who am I to complain? It's just more oz for me. Thanks, AG! ;- )

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:16
robnoel__A (RJ......That explains are a another non-believer..Black helicopters can't be seen to-day ) ID#411112:

they got wise....they painted them, the next
time you see a news helicopter out,,,,

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:15
RJ (..... SWP1 @ $295 .....) ID#411259:

I know not
The believers believe
This level is significant
For the manic manipulators

Methinks there is a problem in perception
Twixt cause and effect hereabouts
And carts are frequently seen
Pulling horses

I hope THAT, at least, is clear, yes?

Righty O

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:14
STUDIO.R (@T#1..........) ID#288369:
Please prepare to be buried by an avalanche of studio's muzac....dress cool-ly.......yes, we have no mo' excuses, rave on. need address.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:09
tolerant1 (strat, Namaste' and quite right...wetting a line is a fabulous relaxation and time) ID#31867:
well spent, gulp to ya...STUDIO_R,NAMASTE' after you get the sombrero I shall be expecting a tape...yes?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:08
EB (buy the breakout......) ID#187109:
back to the backyard bbq
away...for the last hour of sunshine

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:06
SWP1 (@RJ) ID#233199:
I got that part, but why $295?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 22:02
RJ (..... SWP1 .....) ID#411259:

It helps if you believe in conspiracies such as the worldwide trilateral black helicopter gonna take my guns and give fluoride to the kids while fat cats give each other giddy sneers of knowing contempt for the humanity that they daily lower their steeled toed boot on as they grind us all into further fodder for their grizzly and nefarious intentions.

Now… With THAT mindset, you would understand it all toooooooooo clear.

Uh Huh

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:57
STUDIO.R (@T#1............) ID#288369:
As far as Billy's littler head ( he does have those indicative, petite hands ) , I will surrender this to the mutually loving custody of Monica, Kathaleen, Paula and Jennifer...for their further handling.

A fingernail clipper will be sufficient for the unholy exorcism! We mustn't defile a perfectly good cigar cutter.

My best wishes and heartiest HOWDY to your Mother!!! Daughter2 just called in from her car rolling north of Wichita, to tell ol' dad that she just heard one of his songs ( The Next Waltz ) being played on the radio. happiness. SALUD!!!!!!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:56
WDL (August gold (GC98Q) is at 289...but) ID#235295:
bid is 289.1...ask is 289.4

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:54
RJ (..... More Stuff .....) ID#411259:

Boardreader -
The US does not lease gold.
Nor neither either do they sell.
Its all there
Trust me

EB -
I think we have seen bloop on this site before. The grammar, syntax, spelling, and hiccup-like posts remind me of none other than Heavy Hitter, although this fellow ( ? ) seems less ornery. Careful with the pennant, they break both ways you know. I tend to agree though, smells up.

All -
There was some confusion about my post of island tops or bottoms last eve. It seems that the confusion was centered around the sentence, Rare birds, but they always tend to fly in the direction of the second gap. Some have asked for clarification.

Remember an island top is a gap up followed by a day or three of consolidation, and then a gap down. The key things to look for are the gaps, one of each. The rule of thumb with an island top or bottom is that it signals a trend reversal in the direction of the second gap. So…. A gap up, yes? Stays up a couple days…. Then gaps down…. The second gap is the down gap, ergo the upwards trend should reverse and prices should fall. An island bottom has the second gap pointing up…….so prices should go up. This a rare bird in metals indeedy, although EBboy says there are lots-o-islands in currencies. Candlesticks seem to be better at trend reversals, but you have to study the hell out of the system before you can put the patterns to use.


Harami San


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:54
Tantalus Rex (XAU up, POG down) ID#295111:
Golds stocks were up today when the POG went down. I've noticed in general that when this happens, the POG is on the way up.

In the short run, I wouldn't be surprised to see the XAU go down as the POG goes up.

BUT, the rises in the POG are generally bigger then the downs. I expect the POG to reach $295 again, before more shorting takes place.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:53
strat (State of the Union...) ID#93241:
Gold is not money...for now. It's a commodity, albeit with a monetary history. For now, ALL commodities are taking a beating. Therefore, it's a good time to buy physical. Maybe PM's go down some more. Oil & corn, too. So what. Be patient. As for armageddon, the reality, the son of Mary had some sound advice. Look it Mark.

Bully Beef-
Bill Clinton's worst enemy is himself. In that respect, he is like the rest of us. My grandfather used to say, a man digs his grave with his di...hmmm, perhaps I leave end unsaid ( don't want to get 404'd, eh? ) . But you get the idea. Ole WJC is finding out DC ain't Arkansas and whatever happens, he did it to himself.

My Fellow Kitco-ites-
It's rainin' here in Shawnee country, so the water's comin' up. Cats'll be biting. Fish fry tomorrow. The worst thing about a computer, I've concluded, is it's divorce from the rhythms of nature. Y'all need to go fishing. Get off the computer and the damned golf course and go wet a line!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:53
3-cubed (@CHAS) ID#344239:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:52
SWP1 (@RHODY (or whomever)) ID#233199:
Could someone PLEASE explain in simple language why it is that the European CB's would want to keep the price of Gold below $300 before the full introduction of the EURO at the beginning of next year?

Please, this is NOT a facetious request. I'm sure it's obvious to some but so far I missed the arguement.

Thank you all..

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:45
OLD GOLD (contrary indicator) ID#242325:
Cheesehead: Agreee absolutely that the big bear has begun despite today's powerful rally. Market internals still stink.

But very short term you have become a contrary indoicator. Everytime you make a series of aggressively bearish posts about how the market is about to collpase -- a powerful rally invariably follows within a day or two.

A word to the wise ........

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:40
clone (Uh....) ID#267344:
GO GOLD!!! -c

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:40
tolerant1 (EB, Namaste' health, wealth and a giant gulp at ya...Now, stu...stu...STUDIO_R) ID#31867:
what in God's name are we going to do with such a useless head? By the way, which I can't afford... just read your post to me Mumm and she sends her regards, needless to say she was the first recipient of a sombrero...

also, I would like a clarification of exactly which head you are referring to...I mean it certainly would make a difference...I have a cigar cutter which might be of use...straight or scallop cut...which ever you prefer...

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:32
clone (Bully Beef. Guns?) ID#267344:
It will never come to that. Do you think our military would support Clinton, even if it did? Never, not for a second. Clinton will never defy the courts or the Senate because he knows the military would put in some high security prison until the verdict of treason was issued. Even if he does get out of this one ( Obstruction, etc. ) , he still has to answer for illegal campaign contributions from China. Don't you realise how screwed he is? Impeachmnet hearings will take all this into account. He has become the scapegoat and he deserves it! He is so screwed and America is cheeering because they will get Justice!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:31
STUDIO.R (@EB......) ID#288369:
I will throw his head in the trash. My fear of Gore is less than my hate of Clinton. We must time this just right so we don't have either.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:29
RJ (..... Folks .....) ID#411259:

Pdeep -
Please email instructions for forwarding historical gold prices. Do you want silver and platinum also? These are perpetual future numbers and have holes in the prices for days at a time. This is not missing data. Since only certain months are traded in each metal, the contract can show little or no movement as the next contract becomes the trade of choice. For this reason, you will see holes in the daily numbers occurring about every 2 - 3 months as the old contract melds into the new. This will not affect technical analysis or throw the charts off. If you plan to chart the data, it is better to use a weekly chart rather than a daily. I have cash prices for the metals but these archives only go back a couple years. Send instructions to

Righty O

jonsey -
Was it you who complemented my writing? Thanks, although I occasionally have trouble understanding what I have just written.

To others who have e-mailed me recently, I have been way, way busy the last couple weeks, so I was unable to respond. I will try to make amends this weekend.

Aragorn III -
Twas a knavish act indeedy for these upstarts to UPGRADE your gold cards to platinum without your approval. Do not be ashamed to proudly flaunt you new status, as the platinum cards invariably have higher credit lines. A Gold Record is, what…. a million dollars in sales? A platinum record is a million COPIES sold. Tis plain which has more juice. Of course you will now have to buy overpriced tech stocks on margin with your new cards. Why not? Everybody else is………

Avalon -
I would like to apply for the position of Gold Counter. Only one caveat. I get to lease it to producers for forward sales. Heeeee Heeeeeeeeeeee.

The rise in COMEX silver stocks can actually be viewed a bullish. More left Wilmington yesterday than arrived at Republic today……. It went somewhere……


Where, indeedy?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:26
EB (Studio.R) ID#230216:
I can't wait to hear what you will do wiff 'is 'ead...pray tell OKpard...and do you really want GORE in the oval office? hmmmmmm...

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:26
Bully Beef (I get the feeling there are Democrats that have had enough of him too.) ID#259282:
I don't want to stir anymore so I'm going off line but thanxs for the chat. No body got mad .. nobody got hurt ... and I've been set straight.
What happens in that office has plenty to do with gold.
If gold doesn't mean anything anymore then why do the financial pages of every paper give the gold figures prominently beside the stock exchanges daily gains/losses? Do you see Microsoft there yet? Don't hold your breath.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:24
EB (it's golden too) ID#230216:
OJ will drop like a stone soon.......pipe it.
away.........from going sideways.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:24
STUDIO.R (@clone, grizz & our watch......) ID#288369:
I believe we will have his head.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:24
WDL (@analysis) ID#235295:

Site is:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:20
tolerant1 (stu...stu...STUDIO_R, Namaste' well said...I could not have said it better myself...) ID#31867:
In fact I have not, so a mighty cheers to you and yours...I can barely type...has been a long day at the compound and the evening festivities are only just getting underway....

tomorrows word...ignominious...

gulps and puffs from the Island that is Long and such...expect a package...stumble...stumble...crash...

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:20
Boardreader (First Draft) ID#20767:
TO: Moody's Investors Services
CC: Financial Accounting Standards Board
RE: Central Bank Credit Ratings

It has come to my attention that close to 25% of world central bank gold reserves, approximately 8000 tonnes, are currently leased out to private concerns. When a lessee of such gold takes physical delivery, do the books of the central bank involved effectively reflect the dilution of reserves? If so, it appears that a credit rating adjustment for some central banks may be in order.
Possibly, to begin with, an audit of gold 'reserves' held at the New York Federal Reserve Bank should be made.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:20
WDL (@analysis) ID#235295:

Interesting site...scroll down to gold stocks.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:18
EB (your solid dude) ID#230216:
clonebugdude - AGULP to ya.
nuff said... skip the light fandango........ ( huh? )

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:16
Grizz (STDUIO.R - misjudges my foot!) ID#431366:
That traitor knows very well what Americans believe in
and what American stands for!
He is out to destroy America! Period!

Time out - I have to go watch Armageddon - the movie.
Then I will return and plan for Armageddon - the reality.

Bully Beef - unilateral guns won't suffice.
We will be slaughtered by a military under orders from the Anti-Christ.

I am at a loss as to what to do except to crawl in a cave
but I may die of old age before things get better.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:11
clone (Bully Beef and all) ID#267344:
Presidents are not able to influence economic conditions as much as you might think. A president is a figure head. What has made the middle class strong in this country is the middle class. Each individual who has been working hard to improve their lives by improving their output. I would attribute a lot of it to technology. The US dominates the world's high tech industry. We make high tech planes, high tech space craft, high tech information highways, high tech weapons of mass destruction, high tech medicine, high tech farming equipment, etc, etc, etc. Get the picture? The president is very little in our everyday lives. If a president makes any impact at all, it is delayed by at least a term from the time of the origional action. Take Reagan for example. We are still paying for that guy's mistakes - and will be for a long time. A president is a man, that is all. He is expected to follow American Law. If he cannot do that then forget it, plain and simple. We recently ousted a senator for sexual harrassment, and we will do the same for the president. Gore better have it together, 'cause he's going to be faced with utter darkness. President Clinton is responsible for some good things. But any elected official that does not actively try to reduce the size of government in the US is morally and legally wrong in the end. Remember, this is about much more than lying. So many questionable events have occured that I don't even know where to start. This is about the role of government. Get Clinton out, now. - 'nuff said.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:10
Grizz (Aye - and there's the rub - actually two of 'em) ID#431366:
The sheeple are following the traitor like he is the pied piper.
And there is no worthy person who will run for President.
We have established a tradition of savaging any such candidate.
Even if Clinton resigns or is impeached and removed from office.
Then Gore gets a free ride for a year or so and gets elected.
The Republicans are not capable of putting up a fight.
Decorated combat veterans don't want any part of this mess.
and those who have tried - such as Kerry from Nebraska
have been soundly trounced by a chicken-sh** electorate.

Finding a replacement is the really hard job.
Nobody who is qualified - wants the job! ( or could get elected )

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:10
EB (*this just in**PENNANT ALERT*) ID#230216:
And it has nothing to do with US many here won't like don't read it.

Platinum is making ANOTHER pattern. It is sideways these last two days but the pattern that is forming is a TRIANGLE or what I commonly refer to as *PENNANT ALERT*.

Plat will resume it's run NORTH now. ¡YUBETCHA! Stuff that in your politico pipes and smoke up.

Cheezo - how was your round of golf today. Thanks for going to the course. Kitco gets alot less bandwidth used when you golf and when there is a crash....UP. ¡ohmy! Did you get your Dell today?

blooped - the market was NOT overbought recently but, in fact, the indicators 'said' overSOLD. Hence the rally............back to school for you ole bean. ( and this ain't no bear.........'tis still the BIG BULL with BIG HORNS ) .....step out the way...............uh huh. enjoy EVERY last moment of this bubble

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:07
STUDIO.R (@BullyBeef.........) ID#288369:
I will speak for myself and my family. We feel that Bill Clinton misjudges and subsequently, places in jeopardy the principles that Americans, from the founding fathers forward until today, have dreamed of, fought for and worked each to protect. And we feel it is our great reponsibility to protect these ideals from his harm, and further, to relentlessly guard against those dangers created by leaders that fail to hold these ideals as anything less than sacred.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:06
Suspicious (Gold Funds question ) ID#287312:
What gold Fund is invested heaviest in S.A. ?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:04
Grizz (where does that leave 261 million oz that's supposed to be in Ft. Knox?) ID#431366:
In China

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:03
pdeep (Gold Price Fluctuations) ID#174103:
I managed to snarf a year's worth of data ( 1997 ) . The time-series was auto-correlated, which is interesting in itself. Unlike DJIA time-series data ( over 1 year periods in past three years ) , the gold price time-series was not a random walk with a slight persistent trend. It exhibited a fair degree of anti-persistence ( at p less than 0.0001 ) This means that price trends tended to be reversed at a higher rate than expected by chance. Since it's only one year, and because I don't know what the effects of trading volume and #players in the market has on a financial time-series, I would not put too much credence into this. OTOH, it did show a non-random character which is usually shown only at much smaller time periods ( less than 3 months for most equity indexes ) in other financial time series I have checked out. When time periods of three months were evaluated, the anti-persistence was highly magnified.

If this analysis was a good estimate of gold pricing behavior, I would conclude that there exists a bias in gold price fluctations over the past year that tends to reverse both price rises and price drops.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:01
Bully Beef (You will never defeat B.C. with guns and you will only lose support from ) ID#259282:
mainstream America. If you want to send him back to the farm you must find like minded people and raise your voices against him. Point your fingers at him and shake them and yell at him and be angry with him. Logic and guns won't beat him , but emotion will make him explode and all that will be left is a red mist settling on the ground.
P.S. find someone to replace him first.
Go Gold!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 21:01
Grizz (Goldbugs are being jacked around) ID#431366:
The world's political powers that be ( not necessarily elected or
otherwise of high enough profile to be known to most people ) are
playing a cat and mouse game with Goldbugs and Silverbugs and,
for that matter, gunbugs and freedombugs.

The yank a string and all Kitcoites have to tag along.
The tide goes up, the tide goes down - we can only watch & wait.
Little do we know the height and power of the incoming tsunami.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:55
Grizz (Bully Beef - I do hope impeachment brings that stuff out) ID#431366:
Evidence of every one of the treasonous activities mentioned below
have been published in the Wall Street Journal, The Economist, The
National Review, The American Spectator, The Conservative Chronicle
and the book BOY CLINTON.
I have a tendency to dismiss sources like The New American BUT
the stories published therein have become ever more substantiated.
I don't know of a word to describe it except Anti-Christ

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:55
chas (Greenspan) ID#147201:
No doubt he knows how the CB,s work with leasing. Question is, does he just know about it or is he now or later going to be part of it. If he is going to be part of it, where does that leave 261 million oz that's supposed to be in Ft. Knox?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:51
Tantalus Rex (ABX Share Repurchase UNDER REVIEW!!!) ID#295111:
Looks like ABX didn't intent to repurchase its shares after all.

Some guy wrote a letter to ABX one month ago asking them to repurchase shares. Here is ABX answer:

Thank you for your email message of June 18, 1998. ABX announced a share repurchase program last December - no shares have been repurchasd under the plan to date, but it is under review.

The Company has had an excellent year operationally with first half earnings up 23%. Unfortunately, despite the Company's strong performance, we are in a commodity business and subject to the volatility and negativity towards gold. While our performance has been very poor versus the S&P index, we have outperformed our peer group of companies.

I trust this answers some of your questions.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:49
Mtn Bear (SE) (Bought and paid for.) ID#347267:
Lest all forget: Remember the ( reported in the media and mentioned here ) Klinton-Greenspan-Rubin Whitehouse ( OUR HOUSE, Tolerant One ) Meeting of a few weeks ago? No doubt He cranked 'em up for the PPT action, Knowing full well what was coming down the pike, and knowing that a crash would be another telling nail in his coffin! What's going on with Rube? He has been VERY quiet of late. Could he be looking for an exit door? On the otherhand, it is too late for old Greenie. Much as I appreciate his intellect, HE WAS TARRED when he sat by Hillary during the Inaugeration Ceremony, as far as I am concerned. Bought and paid for.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:48
Grizz (I forgot a few items) ID#431366:
Deliberate planned murder or sacrifice of Americans to further the agendas of WJC and the powers he is either in league with or who are pulling his strings.
Well know examples include:
Waco, Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma City, Flight 800 and Ron Browns flight.
How many other people and military personnel have been sacrificed
to add to the drum beat against gun ownership, patriots, militias, etc.
The New World Order will not succeed in America.
But the B*strds will try.
And it will be a bloody time indeed!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:46
Bully Beef (Dear Grizz...) ID#259282:
Those things I understand and if he has done that then judge him on it. I agree whole heartedly.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:44
CPO@AU (Bully beef ( BC & his Bonking id#259282 20:31) ID#329186:
All be it I/m looking from the UK its not to do with BC's Bonking but the fact that he lied that is the issue .and If i beleive halfe of what I read about BC .
As for all being well off in the USA the wealth is shall we say illusionary except for those that get out pretty fast ? Did not one of your US presidents say The Buck Stops here ?
With the exception of Kitco the US public in general have not taken to critisism of BC but that appears to be changing now maybe some of the rats will try to dessert now who knows

buy gold


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:44
Tantalus Rex (@rhody - lease rates) ID#295111:
rhody! I just want to say THANK YOU.

I like your posts. Quite excellent mate. Keep up the great work!!!!!!

Your 07:27 post today was totally awesome.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:44
Bully Beef (Squire... A toonie is our two dollar coin or as you call it in the US...ONE DOLLAR. ) ID#259282:
The toonie is called such because our dollar coin has a Loon embossed on it and is thus a loonie. Threfore we call the two dollar coin a toonie for two loonies. ( Also for loonie toons ) Many levels of humour.
The coin is a nickel alloy surrounding a brass nickel alloy. Mint should keep the nickel surround but put pure gold in the center.
NOT as a commemorative collector coin but as a Volkswagon bullet proof entry coin to trade in day to day use and without a tax applied. No sales tax on the coin. Legal tender. Refundable in gold... 'In God we trust' all others pay cash!
We use toonies and loonies every day. I loose at least 100 a year out of my pocket. Not like paper. OH for the old dollar bill!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:43
MoReGoLd (@JTF) ID#348286:
Again -- I pose the question -- who are the deep pockets that can offer $400/oz or so?
Correct me if im wrong, but HALF the Market Cap of GENERAL ELECTRIC is equal to the value of ALL the Gold Mines in the world - ALL the mines!!!
Either: a stock is an incredible dependable safe store of value,
Gold is horribly underpriced.
I still go with the latter..........

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:42
Grizz (Bully Beef - this sex scandal stuff is a smokescreen) ID#431366:
To hide traitorous, treasonous, high crimes and misdemeanors such as:
Threatening, beating or killing those who may pose a threat to WJC.
The trail of broken and mangled bodies is several dozen long and includes state troopers, boyfriends {of women he boffed}, & one Cabinet Secretary.
Betraying our defensive capabilities to our potential enemies.
Giving or selling offensive technology & capability to our enemies.
Leasing or giving away military facilities to our enemies.
Sabotaging our defensive capabilities through legislation & vetoes.
Destroying the morale and combat readiness of our military personnel
Preparing and issuing orders to subjugate all Americans to tyranny.
And little things like
Obstruction of Justice, Perjury, Theft, Sexual Harassment, ad-infinitum.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:32
Squirrel (And I believe) ID#287186:
Elvis lives like the Government is Trustworthy.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:31
Bully Beef ( I don't understand why boffing a woman who admittedly went to the White house ) ID#259282:
to have sex with the Prez makes him a bad president. I would be more worried if he didn't. What is it about politics down there that that judges someone by what happens in the coat closet, in the lobby ,under Hilary's fur coat ,at suppertime? Who cares? I think the National Inquirer has too much influence in American politics.
When this bubble does burst in the U.S. the Lewinsky case may be the catalyst. But it won't be B.C.'s fault... it will be a bunch of pruds who are jealous that he got a bunch and they didn't. Hilary's eyes are wide open. She made her choice. She knows he is a philanderer.
You are all so well off in the U.S. right now. Why don't you see it? B.C. has made the middle class strong in the US. He really hasn't helped the poor at all despite all of his lip service to the ideals. You conservatives should look a little closer at Clinton and your wallets and you might find maybe he hasn't been that bad. He has certainly failed as far as the left is concerned.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:30
Crunch (@JTF re: Gold Lease Rates) ID#344396:
ABX 1997 Annual Report gave insight into how their leases were structured. The gold is leased at 2% ( example ) per annum and the gold is sold on the spot market. The proceeds from sale are invested in Govt. bonds @ 6% ( ex. ) - the spread, 4%, accrues for several years, say 3, and the mine gets a 12% premium over the spot price received on the sale when the gold is returned to the CB. ABX did not specify who held the bonds & interest during the lease, but one would assume the CB would. This way, the CB is only at risk if the POG skyrockets ( does this raise any flags ) ?

If gold is at low, low prices as now, I don't think there would be many mines trying to lock in current prices - could this lack of demand be behind the low price to lease?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:30
Squirrel (re Fort Knox - items from my e-mail inbox need verification) ID#287186:
Over one-third of the Ft. Knox Gold was sold by Bush & Baker to cover bad South American debt. Almost another third has been sold since-a little more than half of it in the Bush years.

Well, I read about the first big Bush Gold sale in the Wall Street Journal back when it happened. It was only a 2-3 article, but I remember thinking it should be a front page story. It was a short time, very short, after Bush was elected. Our Government stopped backing our currency with Gold a very long time ago. Your Federal Reserve Notes are backed by the Federal Reserve ( Although its Chairman is nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate [The House of Reps, the People's Congress, has NO say], the Fed is quasi-private, not Governmental. In other words, the Federal Reserve is neither federal, and since all their assets are paper, not a true Reserve. Yes, the Emperor wears no clothes-but I don't care to be the one to tell everyone, because that does leave most of the population naked, doesn't it?

The author of the above items sent me e-mail response to a question I posted on another forum about whether there REALLY is any Gold in Fort Knox. I asked said question when a local feller told me that his friend who is assigned to Fort Knox told him The Gold is gone - there is none there.

Maybe this is all folklore - like sightings of Elvis.
With our profound trust in government - maybe these reports are wrong.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:21
Squirrel (Bully Beef - what is a Toonie?) ID#287186:
Canada did mint a gold core coin - for collectors.
Common folk had a base metal version for circulation.
January 26, 1996 The Royal Canadian Mint unveils the circulating bimetallic $2 coin, and a special collector coin... The special collector coin has a gold inner core, and white gold outer ring.
Above from history of recent Canadian coinage found at:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:19
Aragorn III (Studio.R) ID#212323:
One bank wouldn't have surprised me...perhaps this is just their re-evaluation cycle and they decided I made the cut. But TWO? At the same time? Is this a case of the financial institutions trying to keep up with the Joneses? You I am sure are well deserving of a Platinum card, but me, Sir, well I beg to differ. I am prone to have no cash with which to pay my monthly debt and would have to arrive at settling in terms of gold payment. Hey waittaminute! That must be it.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:16
crazytimes (just a thought.....) ID#342376:
I notice that tonight Dec Gold futures is up .20 while August is down .10 Most would agree that Gold will go up in 99 once EURO launched. So Gold futures should begin to go up. Won't spot price begin to follow? Perhaps this is a very simplistic view as I my knowledge compared to many on this forum is minimal but do I have a point?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:12
STUDIO.R (@aragorn III...........) ID#288369:
same deal just happened this week to us..........plat. replacing my perfectly fine ol' buddy gold card. The russians or Ted Arnold is behind this. salud!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:12
Bully Beef (Canada should mint a coin which looks like a Toonie only with a small pure gold ) ID#259282:
center.Maybe a tenth of an ounce and just peg it to the price of gold. Make it legal tender in Canada. This would put gold into the hands of it's people and give people in the world an opportunity to own some. If Canadians run out of gold ..,.well lets just say we have tonnes in the ground. Lots of it...mind you we need at least 320 US to bring it out of the ground. See us and the Aussies have lots buried yet. Go gold!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:08
blooper (Other than that) ID#207145:
No problem.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:07
blooper (Tortfeasor) ID#207145:
Wash the dress. Are you a liberal. Go was your mouth out councellor.
Preserve and guard the dress. Fry Mr. risky. Find him guilty. That should put democrats on the Trash heap of History, where they belong.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 20:01
Aragorn III (On the light side of things. Limey, me boy, I need your service as a counselor...) ID#212323:
You see, I recently had these two lovely gold ( credit ) cards that were upgraded ( per my earlier message ) to platinum cards without any input from me whatsoever.

My problem is that I may now be too embarrassed to charge anything in public. You see, gold I understand ( in a manner of speaking ) , but this platinum stuff? My only experience with it is its presence in a family heirloom in my possession. Although some might know it better as mithril.

Let me know that my gold buggery has not been effectively blasted with Raid ( TM ) as a result of this apparently generous offer extended to me by these two financial institutions.

got comfort?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:51
SWP1 (Re: getting into Fort Knox) ID#233199:
We need:
1. ) A good rumour something is amiss ( missing )

2. ) Wide spread media supprot.

They only way to get wide spread media support on such a touchy subject ( we want to touch it ) is if it is in the Media Mogul's ( power's that be ) intersest.

SO - maybe we all get send 'em 1% of our Dec.'99 Gold calls?

Short of that is there any kind of real hope ( oxymoron? ) of counting the stuff?

I think not.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:47
Aragorn III (Hmmmmmmmmm....) ID#212323:
I won't be a crazy Kitcoite running around in a Hamburgler costume, and I won't be just a visitor either. I will be a specialized contractor on official business for the Citizens of the united States, conducting an official gold inventory with no pomp and circumstance.

Watch me. But be realistic...these things take time, even with a good chip or two.

got fish AND chips?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:44
RJ (..... COMEX Stocks .....) ID#411259:

The reason the numbers are making no sense is the transfers from Wilmington, who now has zero silver, to Republic. Not all the metal leaving Wilmington is showing up at Republic though, so silver is going somewhere. These stocks could find their way into COMEX next Monday or Tuesday, so this has the odor of a bull trap.

Still, I will not short silver here, the potential for a vicious run up looms in front of every short silver trade I consider, and prudence tells me to wait.

So.......... I will

I will detail the silver machinations and COMEX numbers in tomorrow’s PM review, which I must go write, which will be difficult because I don’t want to. I would rather go to the beach and watch the glorious sunset, but homework comes first.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:44
JTF (Thanks) ID#57232:
Donald: I forgot to thank you for the Fort Knox info.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:35
Tortfeasor (What's needed to jump start the gold market) ID#371247:
The movie Goldfinger from several years back gives a thwarted blueprint of how to corner the gold market and drive the gold price up. Now where is that dirty old nuclear devise?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:35
JTF (Got to go -- the 'real Boss' is beckoning) ID#57232:
See 'you all' later.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:34
RJ (..... ? .....) ID#411259:

The Hatt wrote: ( I have a solution to forward selling! ) First in mass we must sell all Australian, Canadian and South Africa gold mining stocks and replace them with non-hedging producers!

To which I respond:
Any producer of any commodity who does not hedge will be forced out of business before long. This would make the stocks worthless, yes?

Forward sales and hedging is a fundamental reality of the marketplace. If you don’t grab the price today, somebody else will. I didn’t read the rest of his post; when the premise is wrong, all that is built from it will have a shaky foundation.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:32
Tortfeasor (Euphoria) ID#371247:
Well it looks like the wall street bulls have decided that they are not steers any more. Its unfortunate that the temporary dose of financial viagra ingested on the heals of Monica's stained dress has imploded gold yet again. One would have thought that she would have taken the item to a good dry cleaners. Some collect autograph's; some more graphic memorabelia. This laundry may be leaving Clinton hanging out to dry. Boys and girls tomorrow is another day. Gold is like an old badger; it'll retreat a little but won't be bullied too long before it comes out with teeth and fangs a flashing.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:29
JTF (Canada and Australia) ID#57232:
All: I am not sure I used the right terminology. But -- consider this -- if all the gold above ground has been sold, what do you have left? The gold below ground. And -- teetering, weak gold producers would be eager to support their respective governments if someone offered them a profitable price for their gold.
Again -- I pose the question -- who are the deep pockets that can offer $400/oz or so?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:27
Donald (No visitors to Ft. Knox but here is info about the place) ID#26793:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:22
JTF (You idea probably will not work) ID#57232:
Aaragorn III: I doubt you would get very far without at least one influential Congressman in the group. You will have to move the gold around -- and there is the security issue. A group of Kitcoites inspecting Fort Knox might make the authorities nervous. The gold might actually still be there.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:12
JTF (Canadian and Australian Gold sales) ID#57232:
The Hatt: I find it rather disturbing that both Canada and Australia sold their gold -- and I now know that the Canadian dollar has dropped nearly 25% relative to the US dollar -- I warned our friends in Canada. I gather a simlilar process is happening in Australia, though I am not sure.
What if the gold mining concerns in these two countries are already cooperating with the authorities by selling gold forward to support their respective currencies? The gold producers probably would not have needed much convincing to do this, since it is only recently that the price of gold has shown any sign of life in these two currencies.
What I am still at a complete loss to understand is --- where are the deep pockets that can offer $400/oz or so?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:10
Aragorn III (JTF...This has to be done by a Congressional group, not by us...) ID#212323:
Phooey to that. Those knuckle-draggers would ( if it ever came right down to it ) simply hire a grossly-overpaid contractor to do the inventory. I'm saying, here and now, that I will be initiating a well-crafted request to perform such a service for a very modest fee. When a political favor is owed to you by a presidential-hopeful, sometimes a key to a door is the easiest way out...literally.


got chips? 'em.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:05
Silverbaron (COMEX stocks) ID#288295:

Gold: +12,537 to 1,102,671

Silver: +275,500 to 78,087,391

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 19:03
Donald (JTF: Coin World has the current issue on-line but no archive search) ID#26793:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:58
JTF (8000 tonnes? ) ID#57232:
Aragorn III: I forgot how much it was. No wonder Goldfinger just left a calling card. How are we to check 8000 tonnes of gold without a small army? This has to be done by a Congressional group, not by us -- except for the supply of the certified assayist.
As for the Army in Fort Knox -- there are two reasons you would want that many soldiers stationed at all times. To keep that gold ( that is not important ) safe or to keep others from finding out it is no longer there. After my discovering the 'truth' about our collecting alien craft -- highly likely -- I must acknowledge that our government can keep secrets for a long period of time. Not easy - and we know much more about Area 51 than we do about Fort Knox -- even if the truth is mixed in with falsehoods to confuse the inquisitive types. Shows you what can happen if the American people want to know.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:54
Avalon (Career Opportunity) ID#254269:
Position Title; Gold Counter

Reports to : Board of Directors of Kitcoites

Requirements : 1. Must be able to count ( beyond ten preferred )
2. Must be able to count by hand and be suspicious
of computers and Y2K.
3. Must be available for extended contract at
Fort Knox, USA
4. Gold industry and assaying background
very helpful.
5. No degree required but common sense very helpful.
6. Serious minded individuals only please.
7. A degree of cynicsm and paranoia would be a definite plus.

Compensation. Negotiable and probably in gold dust.

To apply; Send resume or c.v. to JTF by snail mail ( remember we are very suspicious of people who are computer literate.

Closing Date to Apply;
Before Y2K or the Bear Market or the Great Depression ( whichever comes first ) .

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:46
JTF (Derivatives and CB's) ID#57232:
Donald: You can bet that AG knows everything about the CB derivatives trades, and does not want it regulated. My best guess is that at best only the US CB would wind up being regulated if Congress moved forward on this. I think he knows that enforcing derivatives regulation worldwide is a lost cause. I sure would like to hear his private thoughts about what we Lemmings are rushing to without thought about the consequences. I see nothing that indicates that derivatives trading is self-limiting.
We will have our derivatives regulation -- but only after major damage is done -- SEAsia did not do it. Let us hope that AG is moving behind the scenes with the BIS to limit CB derivatives trading -- if I understand him, he is doing his best, though he is in the minority.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:43
Aragorn III ( on!) ID#212323:
-- in the name of the American people. We should not be refused, unless
the gold is really not there, or less than official statements. We would
not even be checking the books -- just the gold.

Yep, we don't give a damn about the books...just the gold on hand. And just when you thought that your back had had enough, there is more gold under the streets in New York, although, admittedly, much of that has international ownership. At some point we'd have to sort through the books. Damn, there goes the fun.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:41
The Hatt (I have a solution to forward selling!) ID#294232:
First in mass we must sell all Australian,Canadian and South Africa gold mining stocks and replace them with non-hedging producers! This would be the strongest statement we could make to Munk and the boys! They rattled their sabres some months ago about producing gold coins and retailing them as a means of eliminating supply! That is as far as it went. Mr. Munk has made his fortune in Gold and now he is turning his back on the industry that made him wealthy! Since he seems to be the one spokesperson paying the industry nothing but lip service lets make ABX our first challenge! If you own ABX sell it tommorow and buy a Junior that is seriously in the Gold Business........ As goldbugs we must put our money where are mouths are! Once you have sold send Mr. Munk a copy of your trade along with an explanation why you sold... he will laugh at the first few but when the number becomes the first few hundred the smirk on his face will soon disappear! There is no doubt that Canada and Australia are now paying their price for selling off their gold reserves! Both Countries are facing currency problems which further undermine the gold market. As their currencies hit new lows the producers of these Countries continue to sell forward into a LOW GOLD PRICE with a bonus of forty to fifty percent exchange rate on their currency! God help them should the American dollar nosedive and suddenly the exchange rate disappears. Many would be in a position of producing gold at a loss and we all know how long that would last for! Just one other comment! We are selling the Japanese short if we donot expect Japan to bounce back. They have something up their sleeves and I have a feeling it will be great for gold!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:37
Leland (Just a Lovely Picture) ID#316193:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:37
Gollum (@jonesy ) ID#43349:
Thank you. Not too bad, it does have to go up every now and then.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:37
Aragorn III (JTF...A free first choice, but think about it....) ID#212323:
If all is right, eight thousand TONNES would have to be verified...eight THOUSAND TONNES! I might toil expense free on eight thousand bars, but TONNES? They pay the guards don't they? We can't simply be appeased by being shown something and walk away satisfied. Donald would want to know if we scratched the surface, and moved the piles, etc. A lot of work, and honest effort for a job that NEEDS to be done periodically. Payment in gold...that worthless stuff...shouldn't be too difficult to authorize.

got incentive?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:35
JTF (More clout with Congressmen) ID#57232:
Aragorn III: We probably will not be given the time of day without Congressmen doing the inspection. The best way is for us Kitcoites to come up with a plan and rally a few likely congressman -- like Jesse Helms, and Strom Thurmond. We would supply the assayist who would be qualified to do an independent check of the gold -- in the name of the American people. We should not be refused, unless the gold is really not there, or less than official statements. We would not even be checking the books -- just the gold.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:35
Donald (@JTF) ID#26793:
I can't remember the names. Coin World covered the story for several weeks; I wonder if they have archives on the net. Let me look.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:35
jonesy (Gollum, Silverbugs, re. Comex Silver Stocks) ID#251166:
Broker just informed --

UP approx. 275,000
total approx. 78,870,000-ish

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:31
OLD GOLD (Rhody) ID#242325:
Looking at lease rates over time for the PMs have you noticed thst the higher the lease rate the better the price performance. Palladium leads in both lease rates and price performance, followed by platunum, silver, and gold.

Coincidence? I think not.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:29
JTF (Congressmen and Fort Knox) ID#57232:
Donald: Can you remember names? I wonder if they took along an assayist, or did they just look. Antony C. Sutton, where are you when we need you?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:28
Aragorn III (Donald...They were shown something and came away satisfied.) ID#212323:
Doesn't exactly leave you all warm and tingly feeling, does it.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:28
Donald (Greenspan says derivative losses will mushroom at the next significant downturn) ID#26793:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:26
JTF (Payment for inspecting Fort Knox?) ID#57232:
Aragorn III: I missed that part of your post. I think that is the wrong approach -- we need the support from a mass of people first -- payment is a secondary matter. I would travel to Fort Knox on my own expenses if I knew that I could once and for all tell the American people that the rumored gold in the vaults was still there.
Don't forget where it is -- just above those beautiful Smokies -- just the place for a vacation, anyway.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:25
Donald (Ashanti gold news) ID#26793:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:24
jonesy (re. Comex Silver Stocks) ID#251166:
Anyone heard?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:23
Aragorn III (JTF...I welcome you to my team, and will let you know when to report for duty.) ID#212323:
Your final thought is razor sharp.
Razor sharp I say again for effect. Listen up, people, that is what it is all his post...the will of the people... ( etc )

I need some strong backs for moderate lifting. With the appropriate security clearances arranged, we will be moving those several tonnes from one stack, weighing, and placing in a new stack. Random bars will be selected for assaying. This is not rocket science, folks. It might also be that all that is required is to flip on a light and verify an empty room. Bring a mop.

...for my tears.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:23
Gollum (SIU8 5.525) ID#43349:
Where are COMEX warehouse totals?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:22
Donald (@JTF, Aragorn III) ID#26793:
As I recall, about 35 years ago, questions were raised about the gold in Ft. Knox. Some charged that it has been stolen. Several Congressmen requested, and received, permission for an inspection. They were shown something and came away satisfied.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:19
JTF (Another thought about those recent CB gold sales) ID#57232:
All: What if a significant portion of those CB gold 'sales' were gold leases that went sour, and were covered up? I think it is reasonable to assume that the weaker CB's are the ones in debt up to their eyeballs, not the major ones. Also, I doubt many wayward speculators would want to mess around with the German Central bank -- and -- they could choose their clients to be first class --- AAA rating so to speak. Venezuela or South Korea might not be so lucky.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:19
Donald (Gold prices around the world Thursday) ID#26793:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:13
TYoung (Wither Gold? We watch this new.....nevermind) ID#317193:
FND tomorrow...which way does gold go? Looks like the shorts are in control. Do I see spot gold @ $285-6 or do the shorts have to cover? Time tells all. Patience my son, patience.

I smell something. Lease rates are to low. Spot keeps popping back up. The Dow/Nas., despite today, is in trouble. Even Harmony is down today. Franklin Gold fund was UP.

Hell if I have any idea what is going to happen. I think I'll watch the market and just react...long or...ugh...short. Did I really say that. Bad boy, bad! I would never short this market at this price.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:13
JTF (I will join you) ID#57232:
Aragorn III: Count me in -- as far as I can tell no one has seriously looked inside Fort Knox in over 40 years. The problem is -- we would need to bring in a certified bank examiner, or equivalent. Somebody will have to count gold bars, and verify that they have not been tampered with. I certainly would not qualify.
My guess is that the most likely country where such an examination request would succeed would be Germany. The people and the CB bankers think alike there. Here interest in gold is awakening from a long slumber.
Too bad we don't seem to have any CB banker types that are lurking and want to tell us the truth about the derivatives and gold reserves bit. If the CB's are not using derivatives as one of our fellow Kitcoites claimed today, why does AG not want bank derivatives trades displayed publicly? If they are all 'on the up and up' as the British would say, it should not matter, because the gold would still be in the vaults.
It is as I have said many times -- the ultimate power is with the people of the country involved, and no politician or any other type of leader cannot resist the will of the people. But -- if that will is not focused, they can effectively do as they please -- every year they are left alone, it gets easier to work in their own best interest, and not in the best interest of the people.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 18:05
Aragorn III (Kiwi...You were too young to fly...) ID#212323:
I hardly knew ye...

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:57
Gold Dancer (Gunrunner) ID#377196:
YES!!!!!!!!!!!GREAT!!!!!!!!!Made me laugh!!!!!!! ThanksGD

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:51
MM (Envy) ID#350179:
I got a load of URLs on Ind/Pak- let me know if you want 'em.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:37
RETIRED SOLDIER (Gunrunner) ID#347235:
In the vernacular of this here now Army ( which I am no longer a part of thank G-d HOOOAAAAHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:32
jonesy (@ gunrunner) ID#251166:
I didn't think it would be so short.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:28
MM (Envy) ID#350179:
I didn't think anybody followed the links ; )

Ran into this re India/Pakistan - I was looking for historical perspectives ( pre & post partitioning ) still looking.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:26

Members of Congress, America, I banged her. Like a cheap gong.

Which is not news, folks, because Monica never played the flute solo in
my libidinal orchestra. The only babes in D.C. I haven't tried to
diddle are: Hillary, Albright, and Shalaia, mostly because they're evil
and have legs stolen from massive nine-foot Steinway concert grands.

Which isn't to say I don't appreciate Hillary. I do. If not for the
ice-water coursing through her veins, I'd be pumping gas into farm
equipment in Hope, Arkansas, and she'd be married to the President.

So, let me set the record straight. I dodged the draft, hid FBI files,
smoked dope, flipped Whitewater property, set up a new Korean & Chinese wing in
the White House, fired the travel staff, paid hush money to Webster,
sold the Lincoln bedroom like an upscale Motel 6, and made pocket
pinball the game of choice in the Oval Office. Got it? Good.

Six years ago, there's not a man, woman, or child who didn't know I was
a 1Oth degree horndog. But, you elected Mr. Fellatio President, anyway,
which turned out to be a good move on your part. Your other choice was
Bush, an aging yuppie moron who thought he could bomb his way into the
White House. Before him, it was Reagan who left office with the same
Alzheimers he came with. There was Carter before him who brought you a
17% prime interest rate, smiling the whole time, like the idiot savant
he is. Nixon before that coined, but never really understood, the
concept of 'plausible deniability,' and got a one-way First Class ticket
to San Clemente and several decent book deals. Johnson was an inbred
power-mad war criminal. And John Kennedy, who took more than a few
shake breaks himself behind closed doors, didn't hang around long enough
for America to spot that curious atavistic tic for beaver-wrestling
shared by at least a dozen former residents of the White House.

Which brings me back to me, and the point. Since I have been strumming
the banjo here, government is doing more for less. The budget is
balanced first time since my sausage-mate, JFK, did a one gun salute to
Marilyn, a fact the press didn't seem to notice, mostly because they
weren't looking. Unemployment is so low today a blind felon can get a
job as a night-watchman. And, the stock market is higher than a
D-student on a full gram of dumb-dust, and anyone with a degree from a
junior college who can spell 'software' has enough money to ponder the
annual maintenance cost of his boat, instead of where the next meal is
coming from.

Bottom line: I'm running a government here, not a dating school, and
I've done it with my pecker showing. What I'm asking for is your
support, not a date with your daughter, unless, of course, she's a babe
with thin ankles, and then I'd like to discuss it.

In the meantime, think about where you are today, what kind of life
you're living, and before you get too interested in which way my dong
points, ask yourselves this question, 'Just what was it you hired me to

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:23
Donald (Gold and silver coin prices at noon today) ID#26793:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:21
Gold Dancer (Jack) ID#377196:
YES!!! That is what the mines should do. A law suit against
the FEDS. At least it would bring out the into the open what is
going on and what fiat money really is and what it is not.

Great idea. Thanks.

Gold Dancer

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:20
CPO@AU (rhody@George :when leased gold cannot be returned ID#411440 1:41) ID#329186:
True when bureaucrats screw things up the tax payer pays however would it not be much better for 25% of CB's Gold to be distributed and encourage wider ownership.........

buy gold


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:17
Donald (The numbers below are all 233 day moving averages) ID#26793:
Spot gold $302.87; Spot silver $5.60 ( we broke the streak today ) ; XAU 80.77; Dow/Gold Ratio 27.76

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:16
Jack (The Bullion Banks) ID#252127:

I think that the bullion banks will be the ones holding the bag when gold makes the awaited move.

The speculalators who borrowed and sold the bullion will never be able toreturn it, the high cost miners with lousy balance sheets will be taken over by the banks and may ( ) be sold to healthy companies for pennies on the dollar, but many of these so-so mines will never return to production. They are a hinderance to themselves and the industry.

The bullion banks and unsuccessful miners along with the speculators will be taken out.

That Greenspan admitted that the CB's are willing to keep the price of the -so called commodity- from rising makes me lose all respect for the paper debt system.

Could the able miners initate a class action in their own behalf against the system?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:15
Gold Dancer (Clinton is just a...) ID#377196:
side show. Fire Greenspan. Freedom now!! GD

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:13
Gold Dancer (Fire Greenspan) ID#377196:
he is the enemy of all gold/free people. GD

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:13
Gold Dancer (Fire Greenspan) ID#377196:
he is the enemy of all gold/free people. GD

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:12
Donald (The numbers below are all 50 day moving averages) ID#26793:
Spot gold $293.15; spot silver $5.33; XAU 70.88

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:10
Gold Dancer (General and Elton John) ID#377196:
It appears we are both right. The words Durban Deep appear in a
song by Elton which I believe is called Sleeping with the Past.


Fire Greenspan. He is the enemy of all gold people.

Thanks, GD

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:09
Aragorn III (First of the House of Tolerant) ID#212323:
A giant bronze-hued gulp to ya for your most enthusiastic response to my humble accomplishment. Unless the fish get to it first, or if I'm otherwise tieing up the phone or should get my voice mail--no if's and's or but's. Anything else would suggest a crossed wire or missed number.
You'll be pleased to know I am making phenomenal progress through the Sovereign Individual. No, wait... I AM the Sovereign Individual. I am also...

Third of the House of Aragorn ( and have the one object to prove it )

got heritage?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:09
Donald (@Kitco) ID#26793:
Gold/Silver Ratio = 52.40. The 50 day moving average is 54.99

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:08
CPO@AU (Aragorn 111 (JTF CB gold leases...) ID#329186:
Yes it the CB's do/could in effect say they have X tonnes when only Y exist wrather makes a mockery of all other stats just plain old fashioned creative accounting..this has puzzled me for a long time.
Foundation of political slush funds...

buy gold


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:07
Donald (@Kitco) ID#26793:
XAU/Spot Ratio = .229. The 50 day moving average is .241. There have been 28 occasions where the XAU closed in the 66.XX range. Ranked according to the gold price, today is #25. The #1 ranking was on August 6, 1986, with a gold price of $360.80, an XAU of 66.29, producing an XAU/AU ratio of .184

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:03
Donald (@Kitco) ID#26793:
Dow/Gold Ratio = 31.26. The 50 day moving average is 30.67

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 17:01
Donald (@Rhody) ID#26793:
Thanks for the high grade, low grade information. Good insight; clearly explained.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:53
Aragorn III (JTF...your comments on CB gold leases...the last bit) ID#212323:
In keeping with the spirit that governments are instituted among men to secure their certain unalienable rights, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; and also in keeping with my pioneering spirit and tendency to think outside the box, I am putting forth a token effort to petition my duly elected representatives for the opportunity ( notice that I did NOT ask for the right, since I already have it ) to conduct an inventory on our nation's gold reserves. This activity is long past due. Any volunteers for my inspection team? Because this will also serve the public interest, payment is in order, and my terms will be a relatively scant quantity of gold, sweepings from the vault so to speak.

got brooms?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:52
sig__A (A poke in Uncle Sam's eye) ID#249407:

Lifted from

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:51
Gold Dancer (rhody) ID#377196:
Thanks for post. It does bring up yesterdays discussion on
why the miners have shot themselves in the foot. I guess they have
given into the unlimited power of the State and its fiat money.
Why can't they form a cartel or agreement? Why do they put up with
the abuse?

It cost so much money to close and open a mine that many of
them are stuck. If the CB's keep the price near production the
mines can't do anything because they don't have any money to do
anything with. Such is the power of money;even fiat money.

And Greenspan has been doing this to all. I have never liked him.
He is a bigger liar than Clinton. Just because he wrote some nice
little piece years ago when he had no power, look at him now that he is
is the king of the fiat money world. Look and tell me I am wrong!

He will cause more destruction in the end than any other
person alive. When $10,000 becomes $500 as is has in Indonesia ( in
one years time ) the people will finally wake up from their slumber.

Only then will the people demand something be done and the
whole sorry mess will start all over again. Gad, that makes me

Thanks, GD

PS It is reprehensible to control the price of gold. Greenspan
is the man. His day is coming. Not! He will still get his pension.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:48
clone (BillD - little ol' you...) ID#267344:
I think that what you are saying is important because it shows what will happen as the psycology shifts to metals. When that occurs, little ol' you won't have such a major affect on the market anymore as volume and demand will SURGE. -c

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:43
tolerant1 (Third in the Sacrosanct House of Aragorn) ID#373284:
Namaste' FANTASTIC NEWS!!! Congratulations!!! Hey, your phone don't answer when your on the computer

A most huge gulp to ya from the Island that is Long on your victory...

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:41
rhody (@ George: When leased gold can not be returned, this is called) ID#411440:
a default, and the leasee is bankrupt. The CB which leased the
gold has simply lost its gold. It's gone. The government must
return to the market to replace its gold, and discipline the
CB administration for lax diligence. So a few CB bureaucrats lose
their jobs and chunk of the national assets have been effectively
stolen. At last count, upwards of 1/4 of all CB gold had been
leased, and much of it may be at risk of default. But should
the gold carry trade unravel in piles of messy defaults and red
faces, the price of gold will have gone through the roof, making
the remaining 3/4 of the CB reserves that much more valued, at
least in terms of paper. If one quarter of all CB gold is lost
to defaults, the POG might triple. This would result in a
zero sum as the remaining reserves could be worth 3 times as much
( on paper ) and the CB would show a huge paper gain on the fiasco.

Unfortuneately, paper is not gold.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:37
Aragorn III (From the For What It's Worth Department) ID#212323:
I've returned no worse for the wear from my visit to New Orleans. Received a warm welcome into the home of friends, highlight was a big crayfish-crawfish-crawdad-mudbug-etc cookout with wine and beer flowing freely. Closest thing to the Prancing Pony this side of the Baranduin ( Brandywine ) River was Lafitte's Blacksmith Shop...purported to be the oldest bar in the USA ( 1772 ) , and it sure looked its excellent place to enjoy good company over a pint or two.

Gold news...nearly all bad. I returned to a full mailbox, only to discover that during my absence two of my three gold cards ( mastercard and visa ) were, without my consent, upgraded to platinum cards. I ask you, what kind of slap in the face is that to an honest gold aficianado such as I am? With all due respect to the likes of Limey and EB and all others who see the pleasant upside potential of platinum, there is simply nothing to compare with the warm yellow glow of that which is gold. Should I sense some kind of organized conspiracy to drive gold out of mainstream thought?...naw, that would be supercilious, maybe? Ok, so they can take my gold cards, but they can't take my gold.

got ( outrageous ) credit?




Namaste' to the Tol-Cool-One...did I tell you I brought home a bronze medal for some catamaran races two weeks ago? On the last day of sailing we won the first race of the day and got second in the second race to secure the bronze for the overall. Bronze...nuts to copper and whatnot. Oh well, at least it isn't phoney like the the silver and gold COLORED medals were. heh heh heh

get real... got gold?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:37
Boardreader (@JTF and truenorth_A) ID#20767:
Thank you for your response.

Bob P.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:35
Envy (Trigger happy) ID#219363:
Can someone familiar with Pakistan and India comment on this ?

I'm wondering what the atmosphere is like in both of the countries as it relates to weapons of mass destruction. Have either of them ever used chemical agents against the other ? How about biological ? Do you think they are more zealous in their convictions than, say, the United States public usually is ? We ( the states ) can get whipped up for a good fight in a matter of days, but it tends to drop off pretty quickly and you get the feeling nobody ever cared to begin with - is it the same with this region, or are these countries populations more committed ? What's your average Joe on the street think about the tensions is I guess what I'm wondering.

Biggest fear I guess is that both armies are sitting there all die-hard born-again just waiting for the order so they can stomp all over the countryside with big ole guns and stuff by specific order of God almighty as interpreted by some religious dude.

Very interested in comments.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:30
DEJ (Clinton's psychology.) ID#269191:
My take on the slickster is that he's a sociopath. I think he lacks
genuine emotions and in order to feel alive he has to take risks.
Because the thrill in risk-taking dissipates over time, he must keep
escalating the stakes in order to get the degree of emotional stimulus
he craves. That's why he'll stick to the lie in the Grand Jury and
refuse to resign no matter what the evidence against him.

I think it's interesting
that as the enormity of this man's criminality sinks in, the public is
slowly beginning to turn against him. The most recent WSJ poll shows
that the percentage of people who think he should be impeached if he
lied in his Paula Jones deposition has risen to 45% from 39% and that
was before B.J. reached her immunity deal. When the public sees
the amount of incriminating evidence Starr has accumulated, the tar
and feathers will be on the boil.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:28
JTF (Plummeting CRY0) ID#57232:
BillD: Things may pick up when the commodity price indices stop dropping. Have been for months. If the CRY0 goes below 200, that will be an ominous sign. I think the JOC industrial spot commodities index is the best, and least manipulated. Last I checked it looked like it might be bottoming. Light at the end of the tunnel?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:22
truenorth__A (Mine closures) ID#189268:
Thanks Rhody I appreciate the input.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:21
BillD (We have a volume problem in PM's) ID#261295:

when me, myself, little ole me, accounts for over 10% of the volume in SSC and DROOY. Absolutely amazing....

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:21
George__A (Leased gold) ID#433172:
I have scanty knowledge or information on the subject but i do have questions. When the time comes for the lease to expire and the leasee can't return it will the gov enter to bail out thje banks as per usual? Heh's all a plot.. so where is the market economy? Drugs are regulated..except the good prices are manipulated right from the costs $.33/lb, the farmer gets under $.05/ and demand is a myth..sounds good just ain't true..mistake ,good drugs are manipulated too.

Democracy is finalizing in a welter of bull, the stinky kind. This rant went a lot further but I deleted it in the interests of decorum

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:21
Skip (Y2K bug starts to disrupt businesses) ID#287129:
A business owner told me today that she obtained a new computer system for her business. There is a 2-year schedule of account call-backs, thus 25% of customers/clients were slated for call-backs between January and June of 2000. Although the NEW system is GUARANTEED to be Y2K compliant, the Y2K callbacks were misread by the new computer system as 1900, and were thus automatically deleted from her system and all its terminals! Apparently the new system erased each entire record that read as expired, deleting them in totality. Unless she can find hard-copy of the records, she is not certain that they can be reconstructed from the old system. In either event, she has to hire a computer expert to search the old computer system for the data, just in case it can be reconstructed... otherwise the loss could run into many tens of thousands of dollars.

Are you a believer yet? My skepticism has turned into belief that there's trouble, right here in computer city.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:15
Envy (@MM) ID#219363:
Appreciate that news post about India/Pakistan, I hadn't seen that anywhere else today. I hope that situation doesn't degenerate any lower than it already is. With nukes, that isn't the same ole over there world anymore, it's big news, or should be. There's a LOT of animosity between Pakistan and India, racial/ethnic, religious, economic, territorial, etc. That plus nukes equals a lot of yucky stuff.

Of course, I guess if either country were to use nukes against their neighbor, the world would probably come down on them like a hammer on a slug to make sure everyone got the point.

I mean, it really does cause a little worry. Even at the height of USSR and American relations during the cold war, we never exchanged rocket and artillery fire across a common border. Them's fightin words, and both India and Pakistan got the power.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:07
chas (JTF re Chinese) ID#147201:
There should be some. I'll do a search and see what happens. Many thanx, Charlie

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:06
JTF (CB gold leases) ID#57232:
Boardreader: My impression is that the CB who leases gold and physically moves it to the bullion bank or similar does not have to report the gold as sold. But you raise an important corollary point that perhaps others today can answer -- just how long do those gold leases last, and is the rate fixed at the time of lease? Surely after a certain time period, the gold must return to the CB and leased again -- unless they are using some sort of 'rolling lease' process.
What really irks me is the CB's are removing the gold from their vaults -- gold that really belongs to the people of that country. I think it would only be fair that an organization be set up in countries all over the world to review just how much gold each CB really has. Could be an eye opener. How about Fort Knox for starters?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:04
tolerant1 (stu...stu...STUDIO_R, Namaste') ID#373284:
check your email...Salud' Tequila!!!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 16:01
rhody (@ truenorth: Yes costs of production for gold mines is declining,) ID#411440:
but you should be aware that this is not a function of just
improving technology and economies of scale. High cost
mines survive periods of low prices by highgrading their
orebodies. Every orebody has areas of high and low grade
ore. In the best of worlds, a company will try to mix
some of the higher grade stuff in with the lower grade, and
thereby 'sweeten' up sub-ore material that would not be
mineable by itself. Hence total gold recoveries in a gold
mine are enhanced during normal gold price periods. In
times like now, the opposite happens. Only the high grade
ore is mined, so the cost per ton declines, but after a
few years of doing this, you run out of the high grade
ore, and don't have it to sweeten the low grade. The result
is not more efficiency, but less, and less of the total
ore deposit is passed through the mill. The mine closes
years earlier than originally intended, and the sub-ore
gold is left in the ground.

It is said that low prices for gold will shut down mines and
hence reestablish supply and demand balance. This happens
quickly with marginal mines, but just results in wasteful
production methods for most operations, and the mine closures
don't happen for years later.

Artificially low gold prices are reprehensible.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:57
JTF (Your 13:40 about WJC telling the truth Aug 17) ID#57232:
Spudmaster: If you are right, that would be incredible arrogance and stupidity on his part, as the Democrats and the Republicans are circling the WhiteHouse now. Talk of impeachment is no longer Republican only.
As I recall, during crises of this kind he does tend to deny, only to quietly admit the wrongdoing much later after the commotion has died down. Perhaps he still thinks the approach he used in Arkansas will work. This time it is different.
Much of what brought down Nixon was arrogance, and a coverup. And all Nixon had was Watergate. I've lost track of all the WJC xxgates that are still unresolved.
As someone said some time ago, if congress goes forward with impeachment proceedings because WJC refuses to admit an affair with Monica, it will be very difficult to remove him from the WhiteHouse, as he will probably fight every step along the way, kicking and screaming.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:49
themissinglink (Strange days indeed) ID#373403:
Yen down versus the dollar yet gold held up valiently, at least in the morning.

Dow up 100+ on good volume yet many of the small caps ( non-gold ) I watch had little volume. One stock had an average volume of 60,000 shares but today did 800.

Ashanti did well today as it was upgraded by Goldman Sachs and announce a share buyback.

Meridian doubled last week on news of a new mine.

Mainstream media gives optimism for stable interest rates as reason for todays DOW bull yet wage costs increased at .9% this quarter or 3.6% annuallized.

hmmmmmm, maybe todays DOW bull was the PPT playing only thirty stocks?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:43
JTF (Earthquakes) ID#57232:
chas: Thanks. I don't know anyone presently who can translate Japanese, but I could get anything in Chinese translated quickly, if that would be of value.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:42
Gollum (@CharlieS__A ) ID#43349:
It's going to be different tomorrow though.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:40
truenorth__A (Boardreader re: Gold Leasing) ID#189268:
My understanding reagrding Gold leasing is as follows. I am not an expert but have done research and listened to many comments on the subject. When the Central banks lease their gold it actually leaves the vaults to a speculator ( s ) who sell it on the open market. Therefore the lease acts like a sale for all intents and purposes. The banks do not alter their stats because they will get their Gold back ( supposedly ) . There are many including Frank Veneroso who believe the leased Gold outstanding is so large ( i.e. +8000 tonnes ) that it cannot be all returned. The speculator who sells it on the market will buy it back cheaper of course and return it to the Bank. This has been a profitable trade and obviously continue to be because every quarterly report that I have read recently shows mining companies all slashing their costs of production. Therefore the theoretical level of gold will go lower as it approaches cost of production. Since the cost of production has declined dramatically POG should be able to go lower without causing mine closures. I have notice all mining companies reporting have increased production and lowered costs. The leasing of gold will continue until this industry address the problem collectively if possible. These are just some thoughts I have on the subject.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:40
Trinity (Silverbaron) ID#317410:
Thank you for the information.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:36
CharlieS__A (All) ID#298380:
The PPT, or as I like to call them,the powers that be are out in thier dress blues today. If you have any doubt, take a look at the large caps.
DELL,IBM, MSFT, INTC, WCOM KO, They are all up big time with high volume.
Even GM ain't doin too bad.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:26
Earl () ID#227238:
Sam/Studio R: Followed by something from the distant past:

All that could found
Was the horse$hit on the ground
Left by the bandits
As they rode the slaughter trail.

..... best left in the past. Yes.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:23
chas (JTF re quakes) ID#147201:
Just got an email from a buddy at USGS. He's sending me copies of 2 papers ( 96 & 97 ) om EMF emissions related to quakes. When I get them, I'll make you some copies. Still can't find translations of Jap stuff. Charlie

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:22
STUDIO.R (@silverbaronito..........) ID#288369:
Este foreman es un mal bandito
He would spit on your last burrito
He will laugh no more at your grovel
When his head is split by your shovel.

saddle up.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:22
Silverbaron (Trinity) ID#289357:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:20
sam (STUDIO.R/Earl) ID#286234:
Ay, ay, ay,
in China they do it for chili,
so let’s have another verse,
that’s worse than the other verse,
and waltz me around by my willie!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:18
Boardreader (All: A question concerning CB leasing .........) ID#20767:
If a CB leases some of its gold, and actually releases the physical to the lessee, should this quantity be deducted from its reserves, to be categorized differently for accounting purposes? If so, should the CBs credit rating be downgraded?
Bob P.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:17
Silverbaron (specialized= specializes) ID#289357:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:16
Silverbaron (Trinity) ID#289357:

You mean outside of the forex markets?

Mark Twain Bank specialized in foreign currency-denominated accounts.

Not for trading however, expenses would be high.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:13
Speed (Some good news on the gold front...) ID#29048:
Goldman raises Ashanti Gold

Ashanti Goldfields Company Limited Purchase of Ordinary Shares

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:12
Trinity (Currency) ID#317410:
Not to jump off the ever-interesting topic of Gold, but does anyone know what is the best way of trading USD for SwF?

I'd appreciate any information!

PS. Sharfin, thanks for the Gary North links.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:11
Cyclist (gunrunner) ID#26467:
Platinum is usually the precursor to the PMG.
Difficult to chart and to time.In combination with gold
it gives a fine handle on the direction of price.
Moving average of the spread gives a rough timing tool where
to place your bet.
Note to all: gold succesfully bounced from the 288 level.By
looking at weekly chart we have a multimonth triangle formation.
Quite impressive..and bullish.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:07
blooper (OOOOOOOO Cisco,OOOOOOOOOOPancho) ID#207145:
Here's adventure, here's romance, here's O Henry's famous Robin Hood of th Old West............... The Cisco KKKID. Salud tress Omigos.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:06
Silverbaron (GD) ID#289357:

I won't see you `till Christmas
I breathe coal dust, I get blisters
But the foreman he don't worry
He say work boy there's no hurry
Don't that big red sun
Look a lot like fire
When you come out of the ground
After forty eight hours

Going down down down down down
Going down in Durban deep
Going down down down down down
There's no mercy in my sleep
I just hear that drill and hammer
I feel the killing heat
Going two miles down to the heart
Of Durban deep

I was born on amen corner
I pound rock face, I get lonely
But my family they go hungry
Sill the boss man he call us lazy
Don't the old blue heaven
Look a lot like your eyes
When you're blinded by the brightness
Of the Transvaal sky

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 15:02
General (to gold dancer) ID#365216:
Harmony is the song by Elton John ( Goodbye Yellow Brick Road )
and not Durban Deep. Ask your girlfiend.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:59
STUDIO.R (@Earlito.............) ID#288369:
saddle up. We keep the pretty girls, si?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:58
TYoung (Did I miss the shorts rushing to cover? All I see is dead longs.) ID#317193:
Maybe ANOTHER day. Yes?


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:56
Earl () ID#227238:
Studio Is: I don't think so ..... but we have give up the pretty girl to the poor but honest ( oxymoron? ) farmer. ...... Then we ride into the sunset singing a song. ..... or something like that. ....... Aha, I have it now ..... The Three Amigos. Catchy title, that.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:51
STUDIO.R (@Earl..........uh ooooh.....) ID#288369:
Do we get killed in that movie? I hope not......this isn't really happening BTW. studio.sombrero

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:47
Gollum (Darkness awakening) ID#43185:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:46
Earl () ID#227238:
Studio Is: Are you sure yer not confusing all of this with that Chevy Chase movie of a few years ago, The Three ( something or others ) . ... The heat has curdled 'm frontal lobes and I can't remember the title of the movie.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:41
snowbird (APH Would you please repost your silver chart?) ID#220325:
It would not come up as it usually does. Is this the same chart as your Kitco Thurs. June 04 1998 22:10

Thanks for your continued help

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:39
STUDIO.R (@T#1..............) ID#288369:
Blown dust in our teeth
Grinding spurs in our stead's neath
Only this mad ride does matter, so
We pull down these golden sombreros
And loudly sing!
Aye Yai Yai Yai! as we must...
We are the Sons of the Cactus.
Bang!!! Bang!!!!! Bang!!!!!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:36
Gold Dancer (Disney and all...) ID#430221:
girl friend is blond....but dumb enough to buy gold stocks so I will
keep her.

Thanks, GD

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:35
vhale__A ((Blooper)) ID#424424:
That's what I'm trying to say, however, short term the market is
oversold. Unless the market takes out 1146.00 to the upside, basis the SPU8, it's a gonner. I saw massive selling at 1146.00 earlier. However,
the bulls are pushing! Here's hoping they run out of steam fast.....
Last at 1144.70

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:28
blooper (vhale) ID#207145:
For get the SP500. It is a dead man, likewise the DOW. Unbelievably over bought. Will seek correct level, much lower.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:25
blooper (Rising rates in 99) ID#207145:
Thats not good for gold. It does defend the dollar against the Euro.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:24
vhale__A (Another test of Sept S&P 1146.00) ID#424424:
and market failed at 1145.70. We'll see........Maybe down, down
I saw massive selling at 1146.00 awhile ago.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:22
blooper (Gunrunner) ID#207145:
USW economy will be very strong 4th quarter. No imminent collapse, except for stock market. Lots of money coming out into economy. Rates will rise in 99.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:20
clone (bill sux...) ID#267344:
API - Time Magazine reports an interesting case of high-tech
graffiti. It seems that a couple of Intel engineers working
on the design of a recent version of the Pentium microprocessor
included a message that describes their feelings about Bill Gates,
president of Microsoft, a good corporate pal of Intel's.

When a portion of the Pentium chip is examined under a powerful
scanning electron microscope, the phrase bill sux is clearly
visible, etched into the surface of the chip.

The flaw in the chip was only discovered by accident well after
the chip was released into the market, too late for Intel to
prevent the chip from being used in the manufacture of tens of
thousands of PCs.

Intel says that both engineers responsible were former employees
of Motorola, makers of the chips that are the heart of the Apple

Both engineers have since been fired by Intel.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:17
gunrunner (?) ID#354133:
Cherokee - you're in Scottsdale? Go there often on bidness & may be there again real soon. ( I almost busted my butt climbing down Camelback mountain in the dark! ) E-mail me:

Cyclist - Platinum has been pretty flat the last few days after the short spike up a week or three ago. What makes you feel it will go up? TA or just fundamental demand for the stuff? I don't see the charts screaming up between now and the Oct timeframe. If one believes in the U.S. market collapse theory, platinum demand would diminish ( IMO ) except for fund buying. Demand would diminish for jewelery, autos, R&D, & misc. other hi-priced hi-tech items requiring plat. Do you think platinum is now accepted as one of the quality flight metals? Your insight would be appreciated. Anyone?


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:16
rhody (@ JTF: I will bet that the LBMA volumes are just ripping.) ID#411440:
Some points:
1. The volume of US dollars in circulation means that it can never
have a significant gold backing, not like the EURO, and this is why
the fiasco with the US dollar ends with the intro of the EURO in
5 months. Gold will fly as the US$ falls and the doubling? of the
POG will double the gold backing of the EURO to 30% from 15 as presently
'consensed' by W. Duisenberg.

2. The powers that be will never admit gold is money. That is one of
elegant features of the lease rate scam. Would you lend money at
1.6% per year? That CBs do this is propagandizing the concept that
gold is not money, when it actually is. Why else charge a low interest,
but insist that the interest be paid back in metal, not paper. CBs know
paper is a means to an end, not money.

3. If a currency is perceived as weakening, it is best replaced by
gold as a safe haven. Enough people doing this drives up the price
even more, and turns a defensive vehicle into actual long investment
position. ( This is banal; everybody knows this. )

4. The LBMA volume increases are a symptom of financial instability,
and a flight to safety from paper.

5. The dropping of lease rates are another symptom of financial
instability, as the powers that be defend currencies against the
arch rival of gold. I don't think 4. causes 5.

I still think that lease rates are as much set by arbitrary political
agendas as they are by market forces. As always, IMHO.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:15
Gold Dancer (Disney @Harmony) ID#430221:
Will try to get girl friend to buy Harmony. But you know women.
She likes the name Durban Deep. Reminds her of a song by Elton John.

I say what ever makes you happy. Just buy the f******stuff!!NOW!!!

Regards Sr. John.

And thanks, GD

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:05
tolerant1 (completely out of control...heh...heh...heh...yes folks...its true we have full metal) ID#373284:, yai, yai, madness today at the will be flowing everywhere...yEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEhAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

VIVA MEXICO!!! VIVA GOLD!!! VIVA TEQUILA!!! VIVA VIVA!!! ah haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 14:00
MM (SB Testimony) ID#350179:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:59
MM (That last one) ID#350179:
was supposed to be titled Greenspan Testinony .....

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:52
John Disney__A (I love Deeps but) ID#24135:
Harmony will soon be top gun ..

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:52
blooper (The Yen) ID#207145:
All Gold needs now that Utilities and bonds have topped, is a stronger Yen to do some good.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:52
MM (JD) ID#350179:
Potential Application of the CEA to OTC Derivatives
The vast majority of privately negotiated OTC contracts are settled in cash rather than through delivery. Cash settlement typically is based on a rate or price in a highly liquid market with a very large or virtually unlimited deliverable supply, for example, LIBOR or the spot dollar-yen exchange rate. To be sure, there are a limited number of OTC derivative contracts that apply to nonfinancial underlying assets. There is a significant business in oil-based derivatives, for example. But unlike farm crops, especially near the end of a crop season, private counterparties in oil contracts have virtually no ability to restrict the worldwide supply of this commodity. ( Even OPEC has been less than successful over the years. ) Nor can private counterparties restrict supplies of gold, another commodity whose derivatives are often traded over-the-counter, where central banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:50
John Disney__A (Okay Bloops Lets Go ) ID#24135:
Banzai !

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:49
Gold Dancer (larryn) ID#430221:
Thanks for your post on RSA stocks. Good point on Rand rising
after POG does. It will help the stocks as more investors will invest
in a rising currency market. Same for Canadian juniors.

I have been buying RSA stocks over the past 6 months at pretty
good prices and plan on putting another $20,000 into them towmorrow
or Monday.

It is hard to say which is the best one but I really like the
volume pattern of DROOY. I think it will be the darling of the RSA's
as James Blanchard suggests.

This long period of low prices has really turned out to be good
for us as my girl friend just sold her house and wants to invest
some of the proceeds into golds. She gets the money tomorrow. SO the
markets are not allowed to go up till after we buy. According to the
cyclist right at the bottom. Time will tell.


Thanks, GD

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:48
vhale__A (Looks like 1146.00 on Sept S&P ) ID#424424:
will be an important pivotal number for the market today. If it
doesn't take it out, it will be down, down, down........ Last at

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:47
Cyclist (Straddler) ID#26467:
July 30 is a turning point date as is the 24th of August.
I went long 100% this morning.Stops are in place for Nem 19
ABX 17,ASA 18 .Next week we should accelerate higher.
Mark your calender 24 August as an important date for gold,
we will go down and test the July 30 low .
November 10 will be a major high,gold will see 340 and plat 500.
Have a good day.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:47
gunrunner (IRS has Y 2 K firmly under control) ID#354133:
I came across a job advertisement by the IRS for a computer programming position. Read and laugh hysterically:

AREA OF CONSIDERATION: Status and Non-Status Applicants
Opening Date: July 20, 1998 Closing Date: August 10,1998

The Internal Revenue Service believes that there is a new cost of doing
business in the information systems age. Therefore, we are taking steps to affirm a commitment which allows us to face head on the challenges of our Year 2000 conversion, the 1999 filing season, legislatively mandated tax provisions, and post year 2000 deferred systems changes and modernization initiatives. If you are looking for a challenging career - Come work for us!


1999 filing season?!?!? Talk about taking care of business early... Oh, yeah, we'll be done in FIVE MONTHS! Hell, it'll take them THREE months just to fill this vacancy.

The scary part is, there were numerous listings for similar govt. jobs all over the place.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:44
John Disney__A (Excuse me ..) ID#24135:
.. has anyone got a reference to
Mr greasepan's exact words on
CB leasing gold and their
motives for it

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:43
APH (Chart Update) ID#255226:
I first posted this chart 5/30/98. It's taking longer to play out then I thought but its on track.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:43
rhody (@ OLD GOLD: absolutely Please keep in mind, I am not an) ID#411440:
economist, but have put in some hours of research on the patterns
displayed by lease rates over time, and correlations with the POG.

Hopefully the bright lights here on Kitco can deduce the rest of
the story. We shall study this together.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:43
JTF (Gold as money) ID#57232:
rhody: A question for you. The LBMA trading volume was growing rapidly -- may still be. Lets say that is a crude indicator for gold trading volume, and its use as money. Now, the trading volume of the US dollar is still orders of magnitude higher.
But -- if the US dollar is perceived as weakening, there might be more interest in using gold as money, and gold trading volume goes up. So -- could it be that gold trading volume tends to go up before a gold rally, pushing lease rates down?
It makes sense to me that in times of trouble with paper money, more gold might come out for use as a currency, presaging a gold rally. I still don't have a clue how this might lower gold lease rates -- perhaps you can expand on this.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:42
blooper (John Disney) ID#207145:
I hope the heck he has cause im buying this triple bottom. The Bear may skin me, but sometinngs goin on. Utilities, bonds have peaked.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:40
Spud Master (@JTF & Clinton just telling the truth...) ID#28586:
Forget it -- Clinton will *never* do it.

Rule #1 for power addicts is Never, ever, show weakness. Period.

To admit that he, god-like Bill Clinton, could commit a such an act, lie about it, then admit to the lie is impossible. It may not seem obvious to many of us, but trust me, for Clinton such an admission would open the flood gates to QUESTION everything else this low-born member of the political class has done.

Our nation is now run by scum, liars, perverts and conartists, who just happen to dress well and make us feel good when they flap their gums.

We are doomed. Period. 1776.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:39
John Disney__A (Wait a minute ..) ID#24135:
Disney's first law is in serious
trouble 41250/143.37 = 287.7
But we are 2 bucks or so over that
at 290.1 ..
also the gold/silver ratio is
52.4 .. my tentative channel
bottom is at 50.8 or so..
Cyclist said July 30 was the
day .. has he hit it on the nose

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:37
rhody (@ JTF: I don't think CBs use derivatives. I think they charge) ID#411440:
for leased gold, what they think the market can bear.
I think leased gold leaves the vault. All of it. If it
didn't there would be no purpose in leasing it ( to short the
POG ) ..The CBS think all the leased gold is coming back, but
I think there will be many defaults. There will be red faces
within CB administrations, but the faces would not be as red as
they would be if the CBs lost control of the gold market in
tandem with every business cycle.

When lease rates reach .5% or one year forward rates get down to
2.5%, the CBs seem to lose control. I think they will switch
to another strategy, like rumors ( cheap but effective ) or actual
sales into the spot market to briefly prolong the control.
Beyond this, one must resort to banning and confiscation of
private hoards ( why Buffett moved his silver? ) and nationalization
of mines/mandatory mine sales of gold to CBs as is presently done in China and was done for many years in Canada.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:36
blooper (10-4 Skinny) ID#207145:
Confiscation of money is not popular, or legal.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:36
MM () ID#350179:
India and Pakistan fight artillery dual in Kashmir

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:36
OLD GOLD (Leasse rates) ID#242325:
Rhody: Your posts on lease rates and the way they have behaved prior to past gold bulls is the best stuff to appear on this site in a long time. Greenspan has indeed let the cat out of the bag.

The gold bears are always talking about CB sales, but lease rates are the primary weapon in the CB anti-gold arsenal. A few small CBs aside, the major players clearly want to both keep their gold and keep the price down. They have been very successful at this this but will be buned in the end. As gold bear Glenn has said the longer POG is kept down, the more it will suge when it finally does move.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:35
skinny (Blooper) ID#28994:
The I R S has produced more liars than the game of golf.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:32
blooper (Utilities and Bonds have topped) ID#207145:
Where does gold go from here.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:31
blooper (Skinny) ID#207145:
When is it absolutely necessary to lie? IRS.maby?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:31
John Disney__A (I know we're on the same side ) ID#24135:
but ..
Gold Dancer .. It aint ONLY exchange
rate ..
You refer to 300 $/oz ..

Even durban deep beats that ..
by the third quarter anglos will be
doing 4 million oz at 200 $/0z or
very close.
These guys have fired well over
2/3 of their staff
Done away with ring fencing so they
can explore and combine operations
efficiently. The exchange rate is just
icing on the cake ..
What people fail to understand
EXPENDITURE is required to maintain
gold production .. I was talking to a
guy today about wes - areas. He was complaining
about the high development cost for the
south deep project .. and mentioned
something like 400,000 rand for a 50
million oz resource ..
I told him that the cost of Lihir
pushed 900 million DOLLARS for a 42 million
oz resource .. He didnt believe me.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:29
chas (JTF re Monica) ID#147201:
If the interrogation is restricted to Lewinsky, how about the 3 pages she handed Linda and said ..this is what the President wants you to say...

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:28
skinny (Blooper) ID#28994:
Most people do not lie--- Unless it is absolutely necessary---

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:27
blooper (Utilities and Bonds don't look good) ID#207145:
Should not this help gold. If the bottom drops out of stocks, won't gold stocks fall also, even tho undervalued.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:21
JTF (Gold lease rates) ID#57232:
rhody: Thanks -- I appreciate your post. It is clear I am oversimplifying the scenario. Can you tell me how the CB's can push down gold lease rates at the same time that gold sales and gold leases are diminishing?
Can it be that when the CB's use derivatives, they can make it look like they are flooding the markets with gold for lease, when in reality the truth may be just the opposite?
I find your comment about gold lease rates plummeting just before a gold rally intriguing. I must admit that I do not understand this, but I also have noticed a curious cycle in gold lease rates.
Any idea on how long the CB's can hold this together? Perhaps it is not just around the corner.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:21
blooper (Tortfeasor) ID#207145:
I thought of you when I posted that lawyer ditty. I firmly feel thet way, but
not all lawyers are greedy and unethical. I am glad you are part of the group.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:19
snowbird (RJ Thanks for your 02:03. Would you please clarify your ) ID#220325:
The point is this .........Island top or bottom. Rare birds, but they always tend to fly in the direction fo the second gap, yes?

I presume you feel that silver is going to gap down soon? What of the other rare bird or birds?


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:19
Tortfeasor (Clinton comment) ID#36965:
Having watched Clinton ( unfortunately for lo these many months ) I don't think that he knows the difference between truth and lies--everything is gray.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:18
Avalon (Quote from WSJ article; (attributed to Laszlo Birinyi)) ID#254269:
25% of net buying on NYSE is concentrated in Dow 30, compared to less than 20% a year ago. Though the increase ( from 20 to 25% ) doesn't seem huge, it represents billions of dollars going into just 30 stocks in a short period of time .

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:17
blooper (Clinton would rather clima a tree) ID#207145:
to tell a lie, than stand on the ground and tell the truth. I hate liars.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:17
Tortfeasor (Be nice to us lawyers) ID#36965:
I note a few curt comments about us barristers and solicitors and and have the following story in retort:

The professor of a contract law class asked one of his better students,
If you were to give someone an orange, how would you go about it? The
student replied, Here's an orange.

No! No! Think like a lawyer! the outraged law professor insisted.

The student then replied, Okay. I'd tell him `I hereby give and convey
to you all and singular, my estate and interests, rights, claim, title,
claim and advantages of and in, said orange, together with all its
rind, juice, pulp, and seeds, and all rights and advantages with full
power to bite, cut, freeze and otherwise eat, the same, or give the same
away with and without the pulp, juice, rind and seeds, anything herein
before or hereinafter or in any deed, or deeds, instruments of whatever
nature or kind whatsoever to the contrary in anywise notwithstanding.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:16
CoolJing (we watch this dress stain together, no?) ID#343171:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:14
blooper (JTF) ID#207145:
Lawyers are hired liars ( tho not always ) .They are hired to find a way around laws

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:13
JTF (If Clinton was smart, he would have publically acknowleged the affair) ID#57232:
All: He never ceases to amaze me. I know why he did not admit of the affair originally -- because he thought he could lie his way through the crisis -- as he did with all the others. He is a professional lier.
But now the evidence is overwhelming. Presumably he knows this -- he should have known this months ago -- and yet he did nothing. Now even Democrats are talking impeachment.
Could it be that he will deny the affair again on Aug 17? That would be amazing if it happened -- and devastating ( eventually ) to the markets.
I met a professional lier many years ago during some business dealings. What made him a really good lier is that he really believed he was telling the truth when he wasn't. Perhaps WJC has lost touch with reality. I doubt it, but Aug 17 will be a banner day in the history of the United States either way it goes.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:10
blooper (10-4 Avalon) ID#207145:
Taat's what my post said.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:10
rhody (@ JTF: re lease rates: you are assuming that gold lease rates are) ID#411440:
a product of demand for gold for borrowing purposes. Gold is money.
would you lend money at a .7% per month interest rate or 1.6% per year?
I do not think lease rates are market driven. Consider:

1. Actual sales of gold by central banks are at half the rates of
previous years.

2. There is a production deficit relative to consumption before
lease sales are dumped into the market, creating an artificial

3. Declining lease rates do indicate a demand reduction in borrowings for

The first two points indicate that gold prices should be rising,
not falling, and that CBs really want to hold onto gold not sell
it. Point number three can be simply interpreted as a simple
drop in demand for leased gold, but what if the lease rates are
being dropped ahead of demand to pull the POG down? In other
words, the lease rates are not just dropping, they are being
dropped in order to encourage the gold carry. I think we will
know this if lease rates are dropped below .5%.

Every gold bull has been characterized by a period of very low
lease rates ( as CBs try to encourage shorting with cheaply leased
gold ) followed by a very rapid rise in lease rates as the CBs
lose control and the spot POG spikes. I think what happens here
is that the POG gets so low that longs begin to accumulate so much
that all new mine is consumed, and gold fabricators need to borrow
gold to supplement supplies. Lease rates rise to the point that
the gold carry stops, and now we have a true market with a true
shortage and short covering added on. The initial spike in lease
rates could be caused by shorts borrowing gold from various
banks to cover their positions, and pay off lease rates. ( the old
use one credit card to pay off another that's come due scam )

All of this is just thinking out loud, but AG has admitted that
CBs use lease rates to control the price of gold, so I think the
reasoning is sound.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:08
blooper (Probing for a BOTTOM) ID#207145:
That is what is going on now in this market. It will be lower than almost anyone thinks. Market psychology is difficult to change..

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:08
Avalon (blooper) ID#254269:
WSJ story says bear market started late May.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:05
blooper (This BEAR) ID#207145:
Will temporarily end in late October. Tradeable rally late August. Aug. 21 @ 8315 until Aug 28 at 8700.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:05
ozzie__A (Perjury vs. Bad Boy) ID#225252:
If WJKlinton acknowledges the affair, he is guilty of perjury, which I believe is a felony, and, IMHO, a high crime and/or misdemeanor.

He finally admitted to the Flowers adultery for just that reason ( IMHO ) .

MOST IMPORTANTLY, if there is a trend of perjury and subornation, this has a huge ripple effect on the rest of what Ken Starr is after ( Whitewater, Filegate, Travelgate, etc. ) .

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:05
Avalon (Clinton: @JDF, I was cruising on Freerepublic site yesterday and there ) ID#254269:
were some posts there to the effect that only about 5% of Starr's report will have to do with Monica. I am not saying that I believe that; but
if a significant percentage of Starr's report is about other matters, then it will be VERY interesting.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 13:01
blooper (Avalon) ID#207145:
This bear started in May.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:59
Avalon (Bear Market story on Page C1 of today's WSJ; says that average Nasdaq) ID#254269:
stock has declined 35%. . Interesting story if you have access to it.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:58
JTF (Clinton Testifies Aug 17) ID#57232:
All: If WJC denies his affair with Monica, he is in deep trouble. If he acknowledges the affair, and says he was a 'bad boy', the public may forgive him, and the impeachment proceedings might stop.
Anyone know for the legal consequences of WJC admitting that he lied about Monica? He did this with Jennifer Flowers, and got away with it. Is this different? How about the legal eagles of Kitco?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:57
blooper (PTEN) ID#207145:
Might do really well when small caps go. Next speculative phase, 4th quarter. This market is dangerous to the max. I am worried about gold, but will buy.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:57
STUDIO.R (@b.b.b......) ID#288369:
You be thinkin' real good today...yessir. Lunch time! bbl. ( maybe a wee siesta? or FIESTA!!!!!! ) yea! aye ya ya paloma......

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:54
blooper (Noble is quality) ID#207145:
With 10.00 upside. It is probably the way to go. CDG has30.00 upside, but the bear dictates buying highest quality.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:51
STUDIO.R (@b.b.b.....) ID#288369:
CDG up 1.5........yes. Always will believe in pten....up today also...that Rothschild guy yesterday on cnbc did some good methinks.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:51
blooper (Studio R) ID#207145:
I do the gold through funds. the NAV of mine is 1.88 per share. Can you believe thet. In 96 when I played the gold rally I got out at 10.79!!!!
I will invest that 20% you mentioned the other day ( or 25% ) . I believe this is a great time to buy long term. A triple bottom.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:49
NJ (SteveIS) ID#20748:
Do you know of any url which carries the text of Greenspan comment on gold leasing by CBs.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:47
STUDIO.R (@b.b.b........) ID#288369:
so noted on Cliffs. NE up one.

Gold is Good Today. Si!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:46
blooper (PTEN, Studio) ID#207145:
I still believe, and I like the natural gas.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:43
blooper (Studio R) ID#207145:
Try CDG, Cliffs Drilling, if you trade, and have a stout heart!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:41
STUDIO.R (@b.b.booper........) ID#288369:
I am happy to heed your advice....regarding waiting. In its genre, NE rocks though.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:37
STUDIO.R (@the only Disney that I would entertain.....) ID#288369:
lives in rsa. EBrave. Studio.stooopid.second.guessing! And as always, Gulp & Puff to one of my few, non-metallic idols....EB! Salud!!!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:36
larryn__A (SA mines) ID#32078:
GOLD DANCER... Just to add some comments to your post.
Since the rand just lost 20-30% against the dollar, then the cost of mining fell to about $240, no longer $300, making most of them profitable.
The kicker is that after this fall in prices, once the price of gold goes up, the rand will appreciate and the SA stocks bought cheaply will go up much more in dollars as they did in 1993. Gold funds concentrating in SA will lead the pack up as they have led the pack down.
For gold fund info go to Eaglewing Research,

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:34
blooper (DOW RALLY WILL FAIL) ID#207145:
Tomorrow about 2:30. Bear will maul markets. Goodby joe six pack.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:31
blooper (Studio R) ID#207145:
Sorry. Ain't buyin Noble. I did listen to you. Stocks will be on sale./ I think one could buy gold here.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:29
blooper (EB) ID#207145:
Are you still buying Disney. Hurry before it drops. Duh!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:28
STUDIO.R (@digging deeper to love rsa's........) ID#288369:
Three fourths of my incoming mail and phone calls are from federales and state-employed blood-suckers giving us shat. Justifying their meal ticket. I suppose, and again I'm ignorant, that USA gold miners get the same treatment. As far as I know, and again I'm ignorant, Al Gore and his EPA mob can't give RSA miners shat. This is a good thing for RSA's, indeed. studio.enviro.whore

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:19
Goldilocks__A (Thanks) ID#377196:
Just wanted to thank Ersel for welcoming me to Kitco. The flaming bradied chocolate sauce for kiwis sounds great - I'm going to try it. Many thanks. Rhody and Gollum's posts were great this morning. Gollum, glad to see you enthusiastic again and back at the throttle - er levers - er contraption - whatever. Do your stuff.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:17
Gollum (Yawn.) ID#43185:
Looks like the DOW will hold on to it's gains today. Everything else is going to be flatline.

Somebody wake me when the latest COMEX stocks report comes out.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:16
Gold Dancer (John Disney-RELAX) ID#430221:
Read your reply to my post of yesterday and I can see I need to
be more exacting in my words. I was assuming that by using the
McDonalds example and why they were sucesful was that they were able
to get the cost of making one of their burgers down to a level which
would give them a good profit to alow them to expand and grow.

Well, the cost of mining gold in SA is high, around $300 give
or take a little. So how does a company mining gold in SA justify
pulling the stuff out of the ground? They can't in my opinion. But
they have to do it anyway because to shut down the mines is so
costly to them.

Then your post called silly old me mentions the fact that
profits are up for the gold miners because of the decline in the
Rand. This was my exact comment in my post. The cost of mining
didn't go down because of higher grades or more efficient mining
but because of paper currency moves/manipulations. This does make
the gold mining business very different from the hamburger trade.

When the CB's no longer control the end product price and gold
can go to its true worth then the price of gold will rise to what
ever value the free market wants to pay for gold. Maybe at that point
gold mines in South Africa will be making enough money to justify
the billions of dollars they have invested in their operations.
Before the Rand devaluation they were not. Even now they are not
making very much money. At $450 to $500 they will be. That is why

Thanks, GD

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 12:02
JTF (Monica's Dress) ID#57232:
All: I think Monica did a very wise thing when she consulted Furman about how to get a DNA sample without damaging the evidence. She just wanted to get an independent lab to perform the test before giving it to the FBI. Just in case the sample mysteriously got lost or switched. No guarantees in life, as her test would probably not hold up in court. But -- it certainly does reduce the likelihood of evidence tampering.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:53
JTF (Gold Lease rates -- up or down?) ID#57232:
rhody: We strongly suspect some CB's have gotten away with leasing gold without it actually leaving their vault -- the big banks, anyway. It is my understanding that the bullion houses and other sites where gold loans are set up might eventually get worried that they might get left high and dry, and demand delivery of physical gold for any future gold loans.
Wouldn't that make gold lease rates go up, not down? I for one do not understand how very low gold lease rates indicate anything other than the fact that the world is awash in gold for lease.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:51
lady_bug (cnbc - gold talk) ID#310222:
Jaques Louben says, silver will go back up to 7.00- 10.00, but it might take a is doing what it should be , bear market still in place, he thinks it is a good time to accumulate Gold now for the long term, hmmmmmm, well, that might help a bit !!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:45
lady_bug (cnbc talking about gold) ID#310222:
now, get to it

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:33
JTF (Thoughts for Donald) ID#57232:
Donald: Through the Looking Glass, darkly. Several Scenarios.
1 ) Major US recession: If the US economy falters significantly, and Japan has not resolved their problems by that time, Japan is likely to experience a major downturn, since they depend on the American economic machine to buy their goods. This might trigger a trade war, and subsequent Japanese collapse. Worldwide depression possible.
2 ) Soft US Landing: The world muddles through, Japan slowly gets out of their mess, WJC avoids impeachment proceedings by admitting he had relations with Monica L, and y2k passes by relatively uneventfully.
3 ) US Markets refuse to stay down: The markets recover after the current slump -- possibly in the spring of 1999, due to flight of foreign funds from other countries in worse shape than the US. AG becomes alarmed and considers raising rates, despite the fact that he does not want to go down in history as the only FED governor that began and ended his career with a market crash.

I do not know which of the above is closer to the truth, but it does outline possibilities, excluding unforeseen events such as war.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:28
Donald (London says gold will be back over $291 today) ID#26793:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:26
truenorth__A (Rhody re: gold lease Rates) ID#189268:
The information is contained in the weekly Gold commentary July 20 -24 which is the current issue.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:23
rhody (@ truenorth: Where did you find the lease rate info at the) ID#411440:
World Gold Council website. I looked there, but could not find it.
If lease rates have dropped to .7% we are nearing all-time lows.
If the world financial system is in as bad shape as I think it is,
I think we shall see lease rates of .5%. If we go that low,
batten down the hatches, gold will blow, or you will see some
real CB sales. Thanks in advance for the info.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:19
EB (Golfing and stuff) ID#187109:
The CHEEZEY DUDE must be playing golf again........ stox are crashing............UP. MUST BE A REACTION TO THE POWERBALL WINNERS.

blooper - YAWN....... go outside and get the stink blown offa ya. And don't paint stoooopid political generalizations. You do not know me.......and chances are extremely high that this will stay true.

JD - thanks for the info, as always.

Island-Boy - try the currencies for island tops and bottoms......happens frequently.............or so.
away from this here......this kitco...

go gold...

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:10
jonesy (@ cherokee) ID#251166:
Yes, BC legacy -- a stained dress and the depletion of the last drop of public reverence for the Office imbued by George Washington. We talk about the ascent of man; this chronicles the DEscent . . .

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:06
Avalon (Greenspan cartoon in our Sunday newspaper showed.......................) ID#254269:
a woman sitting on a beachtowel at the beach and reading a book. A few feet away from her is her ( ten year old ) son playing with a beach ball, bouncing it up and down. A few feet away from the son is A.G. dressed in his banker's suit. AG is reaching over to the beachball and letting the air out of it.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:03
truenorth__A (Gold Lease Rates) ID#189268:
Current gold lease rates from World Gold Council for week-ending July 24

There were no CFTC figures published this week.
The last figures released, for the week ending July
14, showed the net short position of the large
speculators on Comex at 37,659 contracts
( equivalent to 117.1 tonnes. )

Open interest since then has remained very steady,
suggesting little change in speculative positions.
There was little change in gold lease rates over the
week, further indicating low levels of fresh
speculative activity; the one month rate eased
slightly from 0.75% to 0.70% and the 12 month rate
from 1.62% to 1.57%.

British assay offices hallmarked 5,015,871 gold
articles in the second quarter of 1998, up 27.1% on
the same period last year. In weight terms ( carat
gold, not fine gold ) this represents an increase of
27% to more than 24.6 tonnes. The Royal Canadian
Mint announced the launch of a new gold investment
product in the form of a 1 ounce 9999 gold wafer.
Sales of U.S. Eagle gold coins rose sharply in June
to 148,500 ounces, up 62.3% on the 91,500 ounces
sold in May; sales for the first six months total
579,500 ounces, up 98% on the same period of

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:00
ravenfire (RJ -- 'noble paperweight') ID#333126:
I want ( need? ) one!

wonder if I'll have to sell it if Silver goes to $20... hehe... or start putting it in a less conspicuous position...

anyone can forsee when the comex stocks will run out? I'll have to put some hard cash down for it before then... ;- )

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:00
cherokee (@...the.fuse.has.been.lit......) ID#287358:

still waiting for gogold---real cool hip dude---- to hand me the phone.....
just dying to make a 'call'........yar, by gar.

chaos and flux----as klinton will testify----heee heeee-----are
amux us all......the trap the rabbit awaits the jaws
of the jackal...

gold is fixing to feel the opposite reaction so often referred to....
options are the ticket.....who has theirs?

the wannabees of the world are fixing to make their move....
the leaders of the world are pre-occupied with their own
short-comings.....these will be made glaringly obvious as
one region after another, erupts into chaos and flux...

the trouser trout has set into motion that which was zippered
and hidden from view...his legacy is a stained dress, and the
fractionation of a nation.......

gold is the beneficary.....paper another casualty.

cherokee!; )

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 11:00
Gollum (@Straddler) ID#35571:

I couldn't agree more.

And it may get even thinner before it gets thicker.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:56
kitkat (Canada - A new world dollar) ID#218384:
@Ogie - count the letters in the word dollar and loonie
Yesterday it was at .666!!
I'm with you dude...every time I go shopping I am in your New World hell.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:54
Straddler (Cyclist: Repeat of previous post!) ID#280215:
In case you didn't see my post to you that was lost in the black hole between 8:30 and 10am, I am reposting it to you. Again, thanks in advance for any thought!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 09:00
Straddler ( Cyclist RE: Gold cycle low July 30th ) ID#280215:

In cycle analysis, when you say a cycle bottom for gold is in on the 30th, does that mean that it occurs on that day, or is it a ballpark estimate. For example is there any lag time in cycle tops and bottoms. In the gold example, you say the 30th. Is it possible that the actual bottom might be the 31st or August 5 etc.. ( a few days lag time ) . Bases on other technicals, gold is definitely bottoming, but it looks like it needs a few more days. That is unless we get a $10+ dollar drop today and then a reversal back up. Your thoughts! Thanks in advance!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:49
Ogie (The new world order) ID#249244:
In the early 1980's, one decade after the gold standard was trashed, Ronald Wilson Reagan paved the way toward a new era of politically controled global markets. A New World Order was introduced, the markets cheered. And when he had opened the seventh seal there was a a silence in the heavens about the space of half an hour ( REV. 8:1 ) . Count how many letters RWR has in his first, middle and last names.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:48
RJ (..... ravenfire .....) ID#411259:

I'm looking at a 1 kilo Kookaburra right now. It is holding my papers down in such a regal manner, one can readily understand why they call this a noble metal.....


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:43
crazytimes (RANGY) ID#342376:
I've tried to get quotes from a few places. No shares traded. What gives?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:39
Straddler (Silver Rise) ID#280215:
I said this months ago and people pointed to fundamentals instead. But at the time, silver was in the 5400 -5500 range. Then Warren Buffet cam out with his announcement of buying silver. This started the buying frensy that stopped at 7.50. If it was not related to this and was fundamentals, we would probably be at 7.50 or higher now, since fundamentals haven't changed at all since this whole thing started. I think it was Glenn who warned us that people ( London ) was buying at the time hand over fist and no one actually knew why they were buying. They were just following the crowd, which was directly influenced by Buffet's announcement.

At the time, some argued back to me that Buffet did not play as big a part as some would think and that noone has that much influence. All I know is that silver was at 4400 and went to 5400 on fundamentals. Then after the Buffet announcement, it went from 5400 to 7500. Someone tell me what happened during that time that was different fundamentally after the Buffet announcement. My take is this was simply a frenzy caused in a thin market where it doesn't take much to make a move either way when the crowd takes over.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:38
Gollum (SIU8 5.535) ID#43185:
Forget the short sale, where's my broker?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:36
Gollum (@jonesy ) ID#43185:
Oh, it will rise again. No doubt about it. This is just the shorts and the guys in the pits playing games.

COMEX stocks are , what, about 77 million ounces right? If the decling stocks continue at an average of about 500k per day it'll take a month to get down to about 60 mill where panic will begin.

So the boys in the pits have at least a couple of weeks to a month to play around while they still can. In fact they are encouraged to.

The growing tension brings volatility. You almost always see volatility as you approach a trend change. Volatility is great for making money if you are a trader. You don't make anything off of something that just sits there. And you don't make much off something that steadily rises or falls, a little maybe, but not FAST!

These sweeping ups and downs in the silver market are a good sign. Like I said before silver is not a buy it and hold it thing. Not at the moment.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:31
ravenfire (buying coins (re: miles_A)) ID#333126:
I remember the 1kg Kookaburra not too long ago for $310 in Sydney. Probably should put some of my scarce money in one of them someday. With any luck, there'll be a few more swings before the ... ahem ... big move UP.

Who was it who said they make a good paperweight? :- )

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:30
SteveIS__A (Greenspan CB leasing comment ) ID#280339:
Greenspan announced to congress that CB's use gold leasing to drive down the price of gold. This is good news for the POG. We now know that the reason for the low price of gold is central bank manipulation. It isn't deflation. It isn't our new era economy. It isn't the strong Rubin dollar.
So why did AG admit this. He hopes that it will scare some investors away from gold. But I think it means the leasing game is near over. With
many mines losing money and rising fear in the financial markets the central banks have had to lower the lease rates below 1% to keep the gold price from exploding.

Got gold

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:28
SteveIS__A (Greenspan CB leasing comment ) ID#280339:
Greenspan announced to congress that CB's use gold leasing to drive down the price of gold. This is good news for the POG. We now know that the reason for the low price of gold is central bank manipulation. It isn't deflation. It isn't our new era economy. It isn't the strong Rubin dollar.
So why did AG admit this. He hopes that it will scare some investors away from gold. But I think it means the leasing game is near over. With
many mines losing money and rising fear in the financial markets the central banks have had to lower the lease rates below 1% to keep the gold price from exploding.

Got gold

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:27
Gollum (Whew!) ID#43185:
SIU8 5.520 and holding. Spot bounced off of 5.51 and back up strongly to 5.54. Looks like we managed to lasso the gold balloon. Good ol' yen. I take back everything I said.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:26
jonesy (@ Gollum, re. SILVER) ID#251166:
The factors by which silver shot to 585 -- it can happen again, no? What fundamental or technical factors have changed since the start of silver's rise from 535? The answer: virtually NONE. The glass-half-full perspective: Therefore why shouldn't she rise again? The glass-half-empty view: Then why did she rise in the first place?

Gonna ride her 'til she bucks me, I say, hanging half off the saddle, my boot twisted in the stirrup . . .

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:23
Straddler (Missing Posts) ID#280215:
To all: After 8:31, it looks like the problem arose whereby you could view posts in short text but not full text. If you change to short text, you'll see all of the missing and double posts ( including mine ) from 9:00 to 10:00. This occurred a few months ago. Seems to be fixed now.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:23
kitkat (Block Cross Trades) ID#218384:
G&S&P Bug, thanks for your answer. One question though, what prevents a brokerage from issuing a ridiculously low bid on a LIGHTLY traded stock, and then executing the cross on that low bid? The stock price would then plummet and be established at a level which the normal sellers would never have considered. Seems like a good strategy if you have some shorts on the go also.

( I posted this comment into Bart's cone of silence between 8:30and 10:00. Aplogies are offered if it appears twice. )

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:15
Gollum (@STUDIO.R ) ID#43185:
News flash! DC3 being converted to submarine. Details at eleven.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:13
Gollum (SIU8 5.520) ID#43185:
I think I'll go read the manuals on how to make a short sale.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:12
Gollum (@jonesy ) ID#43185:
Will keep crate fueled. Will work on getting better engines for next attempt. If I feel really brave will work on design to jettison landing gear after takeoff.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:08
POLARBEAR (impressive RANGY slide show) ID#17167:
Takes a while to download, and you may have to refresh a few times to get all the slides to show, but it's well worth the effort. Note the very successful drill results, and the heap leach coming on line in less than a year at $125 an ounce! If you can't get the slides to download, then email me at and I'll email them out.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 10:08
John Disney__A (Rand shouldnt weaken much more.) ID#24135:
to all
in view response to grocery
list and one HNG standard .. seems
rand is undervalued .. I dont know
if I like that or not..

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 08:31
badger (A little Romanian history and their new gold coin.........) ID#261118:

Romania resumes production of gold coins

Copyright © 1998
Copyright © 1998 Reuters News Service

BUCHAREST ( July 29, 1998 7:40 p.m. EDT ) - Romania's central bank revived a 140-year-old tradition on Wednesday, issuing two gold coins after a half-century interruption imposed by communist authorities.

Central Bank General Secretary Cristian Paunescu unveiled the coins depicting paintings from the Europe-wide 1848 revolution against authority -- the first step toward the creation of the Romanian nation-state a decade later.

The ceremony was only made possible by the passage the day before of a government decree overturning a communist ban on minting and possessing gold coins.

Half a century of totalitarianism altered perceptions of gold, coins and precious stones, Paunescu said. The laws were very strict in forbidding Romanians to hold such valuables.

The coins have a derisory face value of 500 and 1,000 lei -- equivalent to about 7 and 15 cents -- with gold content of 0.30 ounces and 1.09 ounces. But their sale price for Romanian customers was put at the equivalent of $167 and $418.

The coins depict Romania's coat of arms and on the reverse side works by the era's most famous artist, David Rosenthal.

Post-communist Romania had already issued silver coins marking events ranging from the 1997 World Food Summit in Rome to the Olympic Games and the 1998 World Cup Soccer Finals. Gold coins were minted in the United States in 1982 and sold abroad at the behest of communist dictator Nicolae Ceausescu.

Romania began issuing medals and commemorative coins with the unification of the Moldova and Muntenia principalities in 1859, considered the birth date of the modern Romanian state.

It has since produced 22 sets of gold coins and 60 of silver coins.

Coin collectors say the best-known issue dates from December 1944, when Romania, barely emerged from Nazi occupation, minted one million coins named Our Transylvania to mark the end of Hungary's rule over the region.

Experts say the issue was partly to keep gold out of the hands of the Red Army newly in control of the country and partly to launch a post-war reconstruction program.

During World War One, Romania shipped some 400 tons of gold and jewels to czarist Russia for safe-keeping. Post-Soviet Russian officials have told Romania there is virtually no chance of any deal on compensation.

Under a decree issued by communist authorities in 1948 and circumvented by this week's emergency order, Romanians found with gold coins were jailed and the coins confiscated.

The central bank last year said 300 kg of gold confiscated from 1947 to 1989 had been returned to 5,000 individuals since Ceausescu's 1989 overthrow.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 08:28
miles__A (Nick@Canbeeera) ID#344236:
Wandering through Adelaide Arcade this afternoon and poked my head into
coin store. 1kg X 1998 Silver Kookaburra @ $330.00
1kg Silver Kooka + 10 X 2oz Kookas @ $475.00 Waddaya reckon?
They looked so lovely and shiny, just had to put some on lay-by.
Bit of warmth on a cold winter's day.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 08:27
Paul Gold__A (SilverBaron) ID#21484:
The mysteries of Microsoft amaze and perplex. You can try again - it should work now. By the way, looking at the DROOY share prices on the JSE, NASDAQ and in London, it seems to me that arbitrage opportunities exist. London prices generally seem to be somewhat out of line with the other two.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 08:26
Haggis__A (Aye..................) ID#39862:

Have you ever had a bad day ?!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 08:22
jims (It always get to me . . .) ID#252391:
when I read articles from the traditional press that say gold or silver having a hard time rising due to the strength in the dollar which makes the metal more expensive in local currencies. You never hear that about the US Stock market or bonds for that matter. The higher the price in any currency the more moeny has been funneled into those once rising assets. Not for gold and silver, a twinge up in the non dollar price of these metals and demand is curtailed we are told.

By the way the charts of PD PT, Copper and Silver look awful; won't take much and they will break down badly in this observer's opinion -then beuaty is in the eye of the beholder. Ugly is a better word.

It is interesting indeed that the CB are offering such low lease rates to keep down the price of gold and hence prop up the dollar. I read here once that at the end of the year the European Banks going to become part of the Euro have a mark to market valuation of their dollar denominated assets and it is partly for this reason that they are interested in seeing the dollar maintain its strenght through December. But my gosh maren't they in over kill here.

The Yen by the way looks like it could fall of a cliff and easily retest its June lows, probably being the catalist for the washout in the metals as if slowing world economic activity, implosion wasn't enough.

Rhody, where do I get some of that Zombie juice. i mean if they are do dumb why do they look so smart.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 08:08
rhody (@ Gollum: The FRB could raise interest rates AND lower lease rates) ID#411440:
and that would certainly get the POG down, and precipitate a world
wide depression.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 08:05
Gollum (@jims ) ID#43185:
Tell me if you see it this way too or not.

It seems to me that last week silver rallied because of 1 ) some big buyer ( J Arons, I believe ) taking physical delivery of about 30 million oz, 2 ) further decline of COMEX stocks, 3 ) tightness in supplies raising lease rates, all of which led to 4 ) some major covering of short positions.

Then as postitions were covered, 1 ) buying eased which 2 ) reduced tighness and lowered rates, and 3 ) stopped the price run up.

Yesterday inasmuch as silver had resumed it's lockstep with gold and gold was declining on the weakening yen, silver declined to about the 5.60 level or so where it stabilized just as gold stabilized around 290 or so.

Last night, when the asian markets first opened, stop loss selling brought silver down to about 5.55 or so early in the evening where it has again stbilized and we now sit dead in the water, awaiting further developements.

Net result: Silver started at about 5.30 before the rally and fall back and now sits at about 5.53 spot or 5.555 September where we await confirmation of the upward trading channel or traceback to 5.30.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 08:04
rhody (@ Gollum: yes, talk is cheaper than dropping lease rates to) ID#411440:
near zero, or actually selling gold. The last time the
US gov't tried selling gold to control the POG, not only
didn't it work, but they ended up selling off a huge chunk
of their gold reserves at fire sale prices. I think they
learned their lesson. Actual CB gold slaes are way down.

We are near a historic change in the pm markets. I can
taste it in the air!

I strongly suspect the devil in the woodpile here is the
FRB. European CBs are happy with $300 gold. The Americans
want $2 gold. We shall see how low the lease rates will go.
I will lay odds, we go below .5% if interest rates stay level.

The Fed could raise interest rates instead. I don't think so.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 08:00
Silverbaron (Paul Gold) ID#289357:
I get the following error message when trying to download the powerpoint link:

File Not found

The requested URL / was not found on this server.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:50
Paul Gold__A (DROOY improves profits by more than 300%) ID#21484:
Durban Roodepoort Deep's latest quarterly report is now available in full at There is also a downloadable MS Powerpoint slide presentation summarising the results.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:50
John Disney__A (Yeah..) ID#24135:
and dont forget IMF gold sales to
help the po folks that the IMF
made into po folks so it could help
them out.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:44
Donald (@Fred-Vienna) ID#26793:
Read my last two posts; one discusses inventory buildup problem, the other cuts by the Saudis. I see deflation first; a sharp fatal one, perhaps followed in future years by a slow inflation. First we have to get by the deflation part.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:43
Gollum (@rhody ) ID#43185:
If low lease rates won't do it, shouldn't we now start to hear more rumors about CB sales, etc.?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:37
John Disney__A (heh heh heh ..) ID#24135:
well chaps ..
If Nobody sees it .. then it must
not be there .. heh heh heh

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:36
Donald (Secret Saudi decree indicates they are having financial problems.) ID#26793:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:32
Gollum (Flatline!) ID#43185:
PM's declined early in the evening and went flatline. Silver is just sitting there at the bottom of it's trading channel. Gold is just luffing there with no wind in the sails.

Time to charge the paddles and restart the heartbeat. CLear! ZZhhummpf! Give me 300! Clear! ZZhhummpf!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:28
Junior (Forgot the to post the source Re: Russian Palladium) ID#248180:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:27
rhody (@ OLD GOLD et al: re GOLD LEASE RATES: Last night, one month) ID#411440:
lease rates for gold were posted at .75% If correct, this is about
.10% above the all time lows for one month lease rates. Since 1988
when leasing began, the lowest lease rates have been .65%, with
the lowest prices for gold always over $350.

Analysis: Central banks are now having to offer gold at lease rates
that are near all time lows in order to keep gold at $290. They are
at the edge of losing control here. The situation is similar to
Japanese banks having to drop interest rates to .5% in order to
encourage consumers to borrow, and yet there are few takers.

The CBs have managed to depress the POG using lower and lower lease
rates, and it now requires leasing at a miniscule .75%. This
indicates that some CBs want the POG even lower than 290, yet they
are near the end of their capacity to use lease rates to accomplish


Why would the CBs be interested in further lowering the POG? I can
see the European CBs wanting under $300 gold prior to the intro
of the EURO, but why almost give away gold to get POG below 290?

Is it the American PPT attempting to debase gold as an aternative to
the DOW as it tanks?

BART, PLEASE post the lease rates! Severely depressed lease rates
define when the CBs are at the limit of their ability to depress the
POG. When they begin to lose control, the lease rates will begin to
rise again, quickly.

I have tried to find alternate sites for gold/silver lease rates.
I can find none! We are at a critical juncture here, and I feel
that I am blind.

The public knows nothing of lease rates. I had lunch with my financial
analyst yesterday, and he hadn't heard of leasing pms or the gold carry.
The public looks at the POG and says gold is dead. We, at Kitco know
about the immense effort being applied by CBs to keep the POG declining.
This level of manipulation implies a catstrophe in the making.

The price of pms is going to blow, and it is not going to be a
pretty sight, but we may go below 285 before that happens. Since the first week of
July, with gold about 295, and lease rates at 1.56, gold has dropped
to 289, but lease rates have been dropped to .75% It has taken a
lease rate drop of .75% to drop gold six dollars! If I knew the
daily gold leasing volumes, we could get some indication of how much
this is costing the CBs, but the relationship is not going to be
linear. As we go under 1% lease rates the cost to the CBs goes
up exponentially in terms of lost income as it takes greater and
greater sales to keep the POG down. We can say this, to drop gold
$6, the CBs have had to drop their lease rate incomes by 48%

Anybody want to short gold at these prices? Gold could go back down
to its old low of 278, but I strongly suspect that the BIS would
step in to buy gold at that level, so that's the absolute bottom.
If you do decide to short, be aware that at .75% lease rates, the
CBs are at their limit to help you down. You will be on your own.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:26
Donald (The buildup in inventories is awesome Q2 figures likely to be a shocker) ID#26793:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:24
Junior (Russian Palladium SAGA) ID#248180:
C.Bank Sees 1998 Palladium Exports Stable

MOSCOW -- ( Reuters ) Russia's palladium shipments to world markets will be stable this year, the central bank's precious metals department head Sergei Kyshtymov told Reuters on Thursday.

If nothing extraordinary happens till the end of the year, the shipments of palladium will be stable, Kyshtymov said.

Last week precious metals market sources in Tokyo said that Russia's sole platinum group metals ( PGMs ) export agency, Almazjuvelirexport ( Almaz ) had offered its Japanese customers PGM contracts for August-December shipments.

Negotiations over the prices have not yet finished, a Japanese trader said.

But an Almaz official declined to comment on the negotiations.

When they say negotiations started, that is wrong. Negotiations never stop, said Sergei Gorny, deputy chairman of Almaz. As far as contracts are concerned, we have wagonloads of contracts, millions of them.

He said that the market had a wrong impression of Russian precious metals' exports.

It looks as if Russia is not selling. Then all of a sudden Almaz comes shouting 'metals for sale.' It is not true, Gorny said.

Delays in signing annual export quotas and licenses for PGMs kept supply off the market for several months, sending palladium prices over $400 an ounce.

But Gorny denied that Russia had interrupted PGMs sales in 1998.

We have been selling palladium practically since the very beginning of the year, Gorny said.

What other palladium is consumed all over the world but Russian? he asked.

When asked about the volumes, he said: We sell as much as we are asked, within the quotas and within the limits of demand.

Russia accounts for 70 percent of palladium supply. Its sources are the sole Russian producer, Norilsk Nickel , and the central bank stocks. (   ( c )  1998 Reuters )

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:17
Donald (Moody's downgrades Sumitomo Bank to negative after Daiwa merger) ID#26793:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:13
Donald (China issues marching orders to the new Japanese PM) ID#26793:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:12
Junior (Not a pretty picture - Unless you're Buying!!) ID#248180:
Commodities: Gold lower on doubts over pace of economic reforms in Japan
Date: 30 Jul 1998 11:41:52
Service: AFX

LONDON ( AFX ) - Gold fell in early trade as ongoing concerns over the speed
of economic reforms in Japan put pressure on the yen overnight, reducing the
demand for the metal from Asian investors, dealers said.

PRECIOUS METALS ( Spot prices relative to previous London close )

Price ( usd/oz )

Gold 289.50 dn 0.25
Platinum 377.00 dn 3.00
Palladium 301.00 dn 6.00
Silver 5.56 dn 0.11

As gold is priced in dollars it becomes more expensive to buyers using other
currencies when the U.S. currency strengthens.
Foreign exchange dealers were largely sidelined ahead of the cabinet line-up
announcement today, with sentiment still cautious as rumours that the new
government will adopt a reflationary package by talking down the yen continued
to circulate.
Gold fell yesterday to its lowest level in 6 weeks.
Merrill Lynch precious metals analyst Ted Arnold said: There is a negative
feel across the whole of the precious metals complex today with most of the
gloom coming from Japan.
He added gold prices have fallen this week as stale bulls, dealers who
have bought the the metal in anticipation of a rally, have had a change of
heart and sold out of their positions.
Silver fell as concerns increased that domestic demand in Japan will decline
should prices remain too high for Japanese consumers, dealers said.
They added fears that demand for silver-based products such as photographic
film will fall prompted good speculative selling in early trade, as dealers
remain sceptical that Kiichi Miyazawa, Japan's new finance minister, will bring
a swift economic recovery.
Among the platinum group metals, palladium fell amid reports Russia has
signed long-term sales contracts with Japanese consumers, with shipments of the
metal expected to resume as early as August, dealers said.

OIL ( Prices relative to prevous close on IPE ) :

Brent crude ( usd/barrel ) Sep 13.10 up 0.04
Oct 13.42 up 0.04

Gasoil ( usd/tonne ) Aug 112.75 up 1.00
Sep 116.75 up 1.25

Brent futures rose after news that America is to boost its strategic
petroleum reserve by purchasing up to 28 mln barrels of crude oil between now
and October, dealers said.
ED&F Man oil analyst Nick Williams said: That's a lot of oil to buy in a
fairly short space of time so it's no surprise that the market has reacted
Early gains were made on Nymex's computerised trading system this morning as
speculative buyers went in search of offers, although volume was light ahead of
the opening of the Brent futures contract, dealers said.
Kuwait's oil minister Sheikh Saud Nasser Al-Sabah said yesterday that the
recently agreed OPEC output ceiling should be reconsidered if prices do not
recover sufficiently, according to Kuna, the country's official news agency.

BASE METALS ( Three-month contract prices relative to previous kerb close )

Price ( usd/tonne ) LME warehouse stocks ( tonnes )
Copper 1,718 up 1 259,350 up 750
Lead 555 dn 4 107,750 unchanged
Zinc 1,067 dn 30 372,175 up 5,400
Tin 5,550 up 13 6,950 up 145
Aluminium 1,360 dn 8 478,350 dn 1,725
Nickel 4,450 unchanged 61,098 up 198

Copper rose in quiet trade with no fresh news to increase activity, while
prices were confined to a narrow range in thin volume, dealers said.
They added the rise in copper stocks held in LME warehouses was likely to
prevent the market from making significant gains ahead of the opening of Comex
later today.
Dealers said the doubts surrounding the speed of Japanese economic reforms
was also having a negative impact, with a weaker yen reducing demand for refined
copper in Asia.
Rudolf Wolff base metals analyst said: Copper is taking a breather
following yesterday's technical sell-off, but further downside tests towards
psychological support at the 1,700 level should not be ruled out.
The only piece of news was that a number of Chinese smelters are planning to
cut production capacity for 1998 by 70,000 tonnes due to low prices, he added

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:09
Fred(@Vienna)__A () ID#185448:
Sir John:
I absolutely do not think youre wasting your time. What I wanted to say in my poor anglosaxon is that I have difficulties to squeeze the action in AU and AUshares into my picture of market-behaviour, its difficult to use the usual economical tools - which actually work in other sectors of the markets. So I let it go, wherever it goes, as I cant forecast it with a satisfying accuracy at the moment. To some extent markets are out of range of my rational analysis. So I wait patiently until the mechanisms of equilibrum and adjustment to fundamental circumstances to unpack the books of Keynes, Friedman, Dornbusch and to tell all the world: Didnt I tell you?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:09
Donald (@John Disney) ID#26793:
That movement in the Gold/Silver ratio is all due to silver; it has been over the 233 day moving average for the past six days. That has always been a good sign in the past.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:07
Junior (Japan - 1 Trln usd - DEBT - Start the printing Press) ID#248180:
Japan's bad debt reportedly estimated near 1 trln usd
Date: 30 Jul 1998 10:10:56
Service: AFX

LONDON ( AFX ) - The extent of Japanese banks' bad debt is around 1 trln usd,
rather than the 550 bln usd declared by Tokyo, according to U.S. officials and
private financial experts evaluating the depths of Japan's banking crisis, the
New York Times Online reported.
But financial experts cautioned that their estimates are only approximate,
in part because Japanese banks have been using accounting tricks to hide those
debts that are not being repaid, the paper reported.
The higher figures greatly complicate the challenge facing Keizo Obuchi,
Japan's new prime minister, the officials said.
The new estimates suggest that bailing out the Japanese banks, which
include some of the world's largest, could cost Japanese taxpayers far more than
the 214 bln usd set aside by the Japanse government, the report said.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:05
Donald (Australian miner increases gold production 49%) ID#26793:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:03
Silverbaron (Marx brothers) ID#289357:
Auro, Nicko, & Freddo.....have you guys ever thought about becoming syndicated? ( as always ) - DAMN! - You are funny!

Oyez - Go Gold ( or is that goggled ) ? and for my sake....Silver ( what the hell is with the COMEX, anyway? ) .....entirely, completely a paper market for now, 'til the 'empty' warning light starts flashing. Maybe there is an embedded processor in there ( Ohno! ) that activates the empty light.

JD - On the gold/silver ratio thingy - don't seeit.....of course I'm prejudiced in favor of silver, so I wouldn't. Big resistance at 60 - the ratio usually has a hard time with those round numbers.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 07:02
Donald (Moody's places 9 Chinese banks on review for possible downgrade) ID#26793:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 06:49
John Disney__A (You Probably Right) ID#24135:
Sir Fred of Vienna
I just wasting my time ..
Maybe I take a closer look at
this One HNG standard..
Maybe try the Basketball
Team .. heck I can always
shoot baskets for the
remaining 59 minutes.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 06:31
Fred(@Vienna)__A () ID#185448:
Juristic park to Auraptor:
Still up?- Must be damn dark in hibernal Maoriland.

Sir JD:
Have been fooled by upward-trend-channel-hoping for more than a year, as any movement up finally turned into a bearish anti-viagra pattern. So I stopped to care about formations - I saw too many bottoms and shoulders the last year so I decided not to care anymore for any signs bullish or bearish. Im still in the game and will be, but I simply think that the POG is influenced by forces whose actions not forecastable by silly old me. If the theory of cycles is somewhat important, we are down somewhere. Probably going up somewhen. But the lack of reaction to any good news is äh-fascinating at least.
But I smell inflation. Like a shark. You dont see it, but it is there and you will know for sure not before it attacks.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 06:25
John Disney__A (What can I say) ID#24135:
Jims ..
Buggered if I know .. Randfontein
earns 3.2 Rd annually now and trades
at 13..
Wes ares earns 4 rand amd trades at
20 ..
Both the above have stacks of resources
much more than St Helena ..
I think people really like earnings
anymore .. or reserves ..
Wish I knew what they do like ..
Why does Frick ( ) buy Homestake
I think it stinks ..
Maybe he like the name

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 06:18
John Disney__A (Quality Considerations) ID#24135:
For Ersel
Back to the One HNG standard .. Quality is a BIG
Consideration .. I will provide info based OF COURSE
on second hand information..

100 Rd .. Quality unappetizing .. 10 foot pole variety
150 Rd .. Quality highly variable .. generally
acceptable ..
160/180 Rd Break point in Market 10/30 Rd buys a
lot of added quality.

200 Rd .. Miss RSA quality

above 200 Rd we are talking multiples
for 333 Rd you get your own basketball

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 06:17
aurator () ID#255284:
Here's more net abbreviations than you can shake a stick at. just click on the Question mark. Sorry about the formatting.

Look up that nosilund dicksionary for rattle your dags. cos that's what's gold's gotta do. rattle its dags.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 06:10
Fred(@Vienna)__A () ID#185448:
ERSEL: Sorry for the incorrect salutation. Tanks for the compliment.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 06:08
aurator () ID#255284:
Umm, did I get the abbreviations uploaded to kitco?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 06:06
John Disney__A ( I zee Zomezing) ID#24135:
To all
Is it my imagination .. or am I just a cock-eyed
optometrist ..
Look at the gold - silver ratio ..
Take the high point of about 51 made january 23
59.6 June 27

Draw a parallel ......

Intersect the recent low of 38.5 made February 12
and extend to form a new prospective channel ..
which was tested and supported at 50.8 just a day
or so ago..

Looking at this very tentative formation, an
optimist could assume the ratio may rise as HIGH as
63 pretty easily ( based on the action in November/
December last year ) .

So .. that says
1. gold stays where it is and silver falls
2. Gold rises and silver stays where it is or
3. The prospective channel is Bullsh!t and it's
back to the drawing board.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 06:06
jims (To John Disney . .. and here we are again) ID#252391:
Mr. Disney tell me more about St Helena. Why is this stock so cheap relative to earnings and dividends - is it just undiscovered. What are its costs per oz. What's the rub with this one - just overlooked?

And here we go again - yesterday we learned that there isn't much silver in Europe or secretive vaults, that the lease operations are big and not a myth, that silver coins are trading at a premium to spot silver which is bullish even though the price declines, and that big smart money is quietly buying actual silver to avoid the legal backlash from legal action happy America. AND silver stocks fell again. Oh, and the silver shorts are zombies who will short the silver market until they go bankrupt and or the price of silver and the available stocks reach zero together. But that eventually this is all a very explosive situation.

Up is down and down is up, the silver market price is going to go down because the short position is to big for it to be let to do otherwise. And that if this if one is confused by these contradictory facts take it as a warning that you shouldn't be investing in metal mining stocks in the first place.

Ok I think I've got it.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 06:04
Nick@C (G'day ravenfire) ID#386245:
Mate, it's like a yoyo over here. I've been in 'n out of RSG about 6 times. Would you believe I bought a truckload at .89? Back a few months. I think I've got the low for the year. As usual I sell too early. Never saw a profit I didn't like. When they keep goin' I cry a bit and then wait for the correction. Runnin' outta hankies.

Silver. Silver. Still thinkin. Been in an outta Leg and ECM. Sold my door stops at 7.71 ( also the boat ballast and the in-ground fertilizer ) . Bought em back at 4.80. I gotta share that is gonna pay for my villa in the cote d'azur. Am hesitant to mention it. Read my past posts.

What the hell. Had a coupla beers. Mogul ( MGL ) . HUGE silver deposit in Mexico. Makes Francisco look like a penny dreadful. Went up 10% today. Low volume. Market doesn't know they exist. I do. Ten bagger--easy. Fifty bagger on development. Don't tell anyone. You're gonna owe me a pallet of Victoria Bitter on this one. cheers, n. I mean HUUUGE.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 06:00
Ersel (@ Fred....) ID#230376:

ROFLMAO=.......Rolling on floor, laughing my *ask* off !!!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:58
Fred(@Vienna)__A (The fine art of Kiwi-eating Part II) ID#185448:
Kiwi-cocktail Big sucker:
Take a Kiwi, remove a small slice from one end, so it can stand, put it on a dish. Then take one of those cute cocktail-umbrellas, penetrate a maraschino-cherry with it and stick it into the kiwi at an angle of approx. 26,4°C. Then take a drinking-straw and also stick it into the Kiwi. Serve chilled.

And as an anti404: I expect POG up in mid-october, due to technical and fondofmetal reasons.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:54
Ersel (@ JD........nasty girl market) ID#230376:

Here in the chilly Midwest the price of the NG market is too variable to really correlate anymore ...used to be 1/3 K Rand per hr.....Now too many freebees biting into the market. Seems no bad girls can earn a dishonest living anymore :- ( bbl

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:50
ravenfire (Fred -- LOL, ROFL, AFAIK, OTOH....) ID#333126:
LOL - Laugh Out Loud
ROFL - Roll Over The Floor Laughing
AFAIK - As Far As I Know
OTOH - On The Other Hand
BTW - By The Way
TTYL - Talk To Ya Later

I think these are the more common ones. Mostly evolved from IRC ( Internet Relay Chat ) . Any other useful ones in common use?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:44
Fred(@Vienna)__A () ID#185448:
Wannabes are an obsession of mine - one reason they gimme the LOOK, any time I enter my brokers office. My credo: peopleo desperately need a a socially accepted vehicle for gambling at any economic circumstances. Like internet stocks now. When conditions get worse or even Wurst, peopleo want safety and gambling. Safety I hope, they will search in precious, and gambling I hope, they´ll find in the wannabees, making me a squillionaire. If not, this may strenghten my character. Do you know by accident, if LEO, LAF or SPX did something else but decline today?

Erle: Sorry, but whats roflmao?
Apprecirator, the wordsmith: My Austrian - Nude Kiwiland dictionary and me dunno whats a LOL

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:36
ravenfire (regarding kiwis) ID#333126:
I heard ( when I had a sore throat some weeks ago ) that the center bit of the kiwi is good for soothing a sore throat. No idea how true this is because I didn't buy any then.

Nice fruit, though, kiwis. Furry on the outside, sweet on the inside. :- )

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:35
Ersel (Upside Down...) ID#230376:

THAT maybe the problem...Youse guys live below the equator !!!! I'll wager that it even rains UP. :- )
Fred...kiwis must be Shaved first...I use an electric razor and the darn things really look cute with a moustache !!!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:34
Nick@C ( 'Merkan mates.) ID#386245:
Antipodean discussion of kiwi fruit is payback for all the time we've had to spend reading about your prezzies peckerdillos. Noone reads Kitco before 6 am anyway. Good thing. We'd all have been 404'd by now.

Auracious, save a beach for me. Getting tired of the canabeera winter. Been snowing down to 800 meters here. 1 1/2 hours from here the snow is six feet deep!!! Goin back to Bali. Live like a king on an ounce or two.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:32
aurator () ID#257148:
As for onions, they're from Papakura, yes? My shallots are looking very nice already, garlic is a beginning to sprout. These are from the same family as the tulip, and we all know the stories of the dutch eating tulips after the crash. I prefer shallots myself.

Best time to buy kiwis? you mean the fruit, not the bird or the coin? In our late Autumn, April/May. But as a producer nation far from our markets, we have perfected cool storage and transporting techniques that will ensure fruit from NZ will arrive in optimum condition. Trouble is, the iriots in charge of the Kiwifruit industry actually allowed the export of kiwi *vines* around the world, thereby ruining NZ's monopoly. I know that kiwis not from NZ can be of very variable quality.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:30
ravenfire (g'day Nick@C (re: markets getting weird)) ID#333126:
It definitely smells of an increasing background level of anxiety in the market.

Over in the Malaysian market, volumes have been low for weeks and the index has gone to set new 52-week lows after that Moody's report. The situation there is that small investors there are certainly scared.

From S'pore -- DBS Bank, the biggest commerial bank announced a buyout of POSB ( the post office savings bank - the only bank with GOVT. backed guarantees ) ... strangely enough, this has the effect of making DBS bigger and increased the S'pore government's stake in it from 40% to above 50%...

Meanwhile the penny dreadfuls in Aussie resource/gold mining stocks remain a fertile hunting ground for bargains ...

btw, Nick, did you sell RSG at near $1.50? I missed buying at $0.99 ... temporary cashflow problem... oh well. there'll be others.

myself, if the comex silver stocks keep on going down, I'm gonna buy some spec-y silver miners ( LEG maybe or ECM if they get past that thing with the director... ) .

Any more recommendations, Nick?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:29
Fred(@Vienna)__A (The fine art of eating a kiwi) ID#185448:
You shell them?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:26
John Disney__A (How to succeed..) ID#24135:
Nick ..
They market people are simply
doing the opposite .. whenever
you think you should do ONE thing..
you do the REVERSE .. It's great ..
I heard about it on a Seinfeld

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:25
Ersel (@ Fred.....Nick@C....) ID#230376:

Fred...roflmao...wurst fairytale since shaggy dogs were invented..

Nick..Maybe all that you said correlates directly with the price of kiwis....... ( the fruit or the coins ) !?!?!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:22
Nick@C (Auracious/Fred) ID#386245:
Take one kiwi fruit. Cut in half. Take out a teaspoon and shell it just like a boiled egg. Stick in mouth. Chew. Swallow. Pucker up and kiss your wife/girl/boy/sheep.

You have now had a week's supply of vitamin C, and your wife/girl/boy/sheep will keep you warm tonight.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:22
John Disney__A (Confessions of an Olive Oil Slurper ..) ID#24135:
Welcome Back Ersel ..
Will try that kiwi number

For Salty
Winters here coldish but Many SUNNY days .. Those
prices are from my favorie shop called FRUIT AND
VEG CITY .. how bout that. Top quality stuff but
I have to drive a bit to get there. They seem to
have an ongoing olive oil sale .. the bottom seems
to have dropped out of that market too. Anybody
tracking the gold-olive oil ratio. The Italian stuff
from Lucca .. the best Spanish .. Now the French ..
Nobody touches the Portugese and the Local is very
How about looking at the one hour with a
naughty girl standard or .. hanky panky in the
Central Banks.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:19
aurator () ID#257148:
I don't think it has ever snowed here ( after last post i must equivocate, all is imho ) in Auckland. ave winter temps, well highs of 9-15C 48-60F in july, overnight lows will drop below freezing a couple of nights a year in some places in Auckland I've lived in. We're in mid-winter. Heaps of rain, especially this month. One place just north of here got 30cm about 12 inches in 24 hours last week. SUmmer? Well, ave day temps get in the 22-30C, 70-85F for weeks on end.

Noone wants to live here. we got too many wide open beaches ( didja see the film The Piano? filmed on one of our local beaches, and too many kiwifruit.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:11
Nick@C (G'day all) ID#386245:

I don't usually shout. I prefer to speak softly and carry a big stick. Just like the Prez.

After a while you get a feel for the markets. The markets are acting strangely. Today in Oz the gold market was down and the all ords was up. Now when the all ords goes up, my puts usually take a drubbing. Today they went up. Now when the gold market goes down, my pissant little wannabees take a drubbing. Today they went up. Big. Everything did the opposite of what its supposed to do. Am I just brilliant, or is something strange going on here. Especially the puts. Prices going up while the market goes up. THERE ARE SOME VERY NERVOUS PEOPLE OUT THERE.

I think they have good reason.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:10
Fred(@Vienna)__A (Tales from the Vienna woods) ID#185448:
re The uprise and fall of Kiwi stardust

Once upon a time, when I was some days younger, my Mom bought me the very first Kiwi of my life. I mean, I had never seen a potato with hair before, and New Zilund, where it origined, was somewhere outa space. She had to pay 19.90 Schilling for it, and at that time you got a fin de siecle town house for about the same amount ( OK- a rather small one, but enivrez ) . I was a star in school, when I brought it along the very next day, and the next day too, and all em little Krauts we were wanted to see that hairy potato from the planet Noozi. When the first euphoria was over, and I finally decided to try to eat it, I was rather disappointed, as it tasted very similar to gooseberries, and them grew for free in our garden. But I didnt tell that to my Mum until last year, when my parents finally had repaid the Kiwi-credit.
Today, one italian Kiwi ( Mafia-gooseberry ) for one Schilling, and planet Nuzi is broke. ( But we buy Noozi onions - no joke! )

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:09
Ersel (@ auracious........) ID#230376:

Hi ..guy !....Just out of curiosity , how cold does it normally get in your part of the globe ? ....and how warm in your summer ? When is the best time to buy Noo Zelin kiwis ?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 05:08
John Disney__A (Silly Old Me ..) ID#24135:
To all ..
Just looking at meaningless
costs and profits ..
JCI related mines results out ..
Randfontein for June quarter ..
earned 0.79 rand
versus 0.59 March quarter

Wes-Areas earned 1.05 rand versus
0.81 in the March quarter.

The rand fell 5% over the period while earnings
rose about 30% .. 25% increase in DOLLAR profits
in 3 months .. I believe the average gold price was
about the same in both quarters .

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 04:58
aurator () ID#257148:
Freddie LOL! I always appreciate your pleasure at playing with words.
Eddie You got great taste! Time for a glayva.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 04:55
aurator () ID#257148:
Well looks like kiwis are in line, but I looked at your grocery list half a spin ago all your fruit and vegies say 20-50% of NZ Prices. Then again, we're in middle of winter here and we don't have your temperate climate, so all our produce is more expensive. Yesterday temp got to 20C, 68F. the highest July temp on record in the wettest July on record.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 04:55
Ersel (Goldylocks......kiwis..) ID#230376:

Gooday from the chilly Midwest.. No one greeted Goldylocks on his/her first post so i will....Hi, Goldy, welcome aboard.....but be careful, there ARE bears out there!
Auracious...JD,and all....kiwis are best when sliced in half, spooned out and dipped into a flaming brandied chocolate sauce and washed down with a sip or two of white zinfandel served by GOLDEN candlelight.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 04:51
Fred(@Vienna)__A (Nonewsfromthewest) ID#185448:
To all of Barts forgotten children:

Good morning! Bright&sunny in Vienna, 30°C, summer at it´s best.
BTW: Will send an email to the austrian mint to propose the rename of our most popular gold-coin to Vienna Billandmonica.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 04:44
John Disney__A (You saved my life ..) ID#24135:
Salty .. Thanks .. I was looking forward to a grim
citrusy future .. They grow the old kiwi here too
at about a rand each .. $ 0.16 .. 24 in a tray ? Im
guessing .. makes $3.84. Are we in line
Howabout BIG MAC kiwiburgers .. do they go with
onions and mustard

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 04:31
John Disney__A ( Gimmeabreak ..) ID#24135:
For Gold Dancer

You said ..
if we buy your observation about it being about
costs, and not the price you can receive or charge; how do
you explain your pushing RSA stocks. Are they going to get their
production costs down to $175 so they can make enough money
to justify their even being in business?

I dont push anything .. I buy RSA golds
at present because their COSTS are much LOWER
than NA stocks .. I do not understand the last
sentence ... RSA Golds in general earn a great
deal more than their NA counterparts

Then you said
The hamburger market is a little different from
the gold market don't you think?

Yes .. there are endless reserves of
ground beef, buns, and mustard .. Reserves of
gold are limited and costly to discover .. thus
reserves are an importand element in the gold
industry.. Beyond that and the obvious marketing
difference .. they are pretty much the same.

Then you said..

I know the Rand has come down in price but
that is just manipulation of the market price
for Rand. When we have a FREE market in gold
and all the financial cards are on the table
I believe we will see that it is not cost alone
that will determine the fate of gold stocks.

If you mean that the world decides that gold
is not worth a stuff, then I agree with you
completely .. all mines will be closed regardless
of their cost. If you mean something more
subtle than that, I have no idea what it might
be. .. And what do you mean by a free market
in gold .. are you referring to CB manipulation?

Thanks, GD

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 04:23
aurator () ID#257148:
just shows how little I know, shouldn't just post off the top of my head...

here's some historical facts on kiwifruit. seems like they been here much longer than I knew..odd how the commentary seems to stop in 87?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 04:16
aurator () ID#257148:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 04:14
SWP1 (@aurator) ID#233199:
How much per tray now?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 04:10
aurator (Tulips down under ~~~~~~~~~ La plus ça change~~~~~~~~) ID#257148:
BEst way ( IMHO ) to eat kiwis is to cut em in half and squeeze the fruit out, or if you're not so choosy, bite them in half. Best when they're soft...

Kiwis were first brought to NZ from CHina in early 60's. We used to call them Chinese Gooseberries Several Chinese Gooseberry cultivars were developed to breed a larger and less hairy fruit. The first Chinese Gooseberries I remember had fur as dense as coconut coire, I exaggerate only a little. The Chinese Gooseberry became a Kiwi fruit in the 1970's. By the 1980's the fruit became the Kiwi for export trade. This unique and very tasty fruit was a great hit internationally. Acre upon acre of pasture was turned into Kiwi fruit orchard. There was a magnificent mani in land pricing. The return per tray started increasing each year. Projections were made of NZ$24 per tray, and land was bought and sold based on these projections. At market top I saw a prospectus for the world's largest kiwi fruit farm to be established in the Nelson area. based on this $NZ24 per tray. The '87 crash was the final death knell for this speculative orgy. Many many orchards have been uprooted, for a while kiwis were being turned into methane gas.

Just another tulip story.. Shall perhaps write it up one day.

We've also had bubbles in Goats, alpacas, emus, property, downuder..and we are looking at another one for the AMericas Cup in February 2000

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 04:01
HepMeMoney_Hmm (Thoughts) ID#404124:
It is meaningless.

Noone knows.

Noone cares,but for those that have sacrificed the lamb.

The Tigers are sleeping.

The Wolves are waiting.

The Lamb is the sacrificial.

The Doves hover watching.

The Eagles wish to land.

The Vultures hide.

Such is life.


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 03:51
John Disney__A (.. through a glass darkly ..) ID#24135:
For Gogold
Never eat Kiwis .. Too clumsy to peel them ..
Had to eat them whole .. too fuzzy for me ..
.. Bless You .. and keep up the good work..
.. ( making sign of the cross in the air )

For Gagnrad ..
Sorry .. That was all too obscure for me .. Im
going back to trying to learn to peel Kiwis.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 03:47
Envy (All is well.) ID#219363:
I'm glad to see the universe didn't stop working. When I took all my money out of the market a month or two ago, I did it because my gut was telling me things just weren't gonna go well for the DOW. I figured there might be a summer rally, but didn't want to take chances on it myself. So I'm out.

Some of my friends, family, and employees found out that I jumped ship and started asking me why, I never could come up with a good reason. I just kept saying I dunno, it just feels sucky. Anyway, a bunch of people gave me a hard time, I felt like they were trying to convince themselves it was gonna be okay. One of my employees in particular was giving me a bunch of crap about how the market would rebound, how the economy is doing well, etc, etc, and he got pretty frustrated when I couldn't argue with him - I mean, the economy IS doing well, and the market DOES have a history of rebounding. So whatever, I make gut calls, that's what has always worked for me.

Anyway, over the past week since things started looking ugly, those same people who have been giving me a hard time have started asking me daily what I think they should do. I don't know what to tell them really. I just tell them that I'VE gotten out, and they might want to pay attention to what's going on so they can decide for themselves - I mean, it is there money, and they should do whatever they think is prudent.

For my money, though, I wouldn't be in the market right now for anything. Things feel really icky. I'm glad things are correcting or going into a bear, or whatever, because it makes me feel like reality ( tm ) is the same as it ever was, and that stuff that goes up tends to get out of hand and tank in the end.

I do feel bad though that the market is getting messy. I mean, I know it has to happen, and I know a good thing ( tm ) can't go on forever, but whenever the market tanks bad things happen to people, both immediately and into the future. I don't want to see my friends lose a bunch of money either when the market gets uglier or down the road when it gets harder to find jobs, capital, etc. I'm all about a growing economy, and it sucks to see that we could be heading into a time where the economy might not grow, or worse, might slip. It's not good for anyone when the economy is bad. I mean, it has to happen sometimes, so in that regard it's a good thing, but that's like saying that getting your teeth drilled is a good thing because it helps the concept of good teeth out in the long term. That's little consolation when you're sitting in the dentist office.

As far as Clinton goes, well, I don't know what to say about that. Again, things move in cycles and I figure Clinton isn't such a bad thing. Maybe if we get enough lying, cheating, and generally bad attitude out in front of everyone people will eventually get sick of it and start moving towards excellence, a word you don't hear about very much anymore ( except maybe in military or athletic circles ) . I'm kinda getting a little bit sick of the endless stream of bullsh*t that floods my television set everyday and hope that something happens to push things a little more in the other direction, towards some kind of quality. Unfortunately, the only thing I've identified that sends things in the direction of quality is a good dose of trauma, fear, and a healthy portion of mindless mayhem. I'd hate to be the one that perscribes medicine like that.

For ROR and the other guy ( rhody ? ) who were talking about their political ideas - I see and understand where you're coming from and respect what you've got to say. I, personally, couldn't understand things the way you do, it's just how I was brought up I guess, but I'm cool with what you've got to say. There wouldn't be an evil without a good, a death without a life, or a truthful word without a Clinton news-bit. I do hope you'll cut the big corps a bit of a break - corporations do what corporations do, they aren't any more evil than anything else in this world. The Universe just works like that - everything has it's good and bad side. I suspect that if you want to see the bad side of your own philosophies, this is probably a good forum to express them in, plenty of people here would love to give you complementary views.

So anyway ...

If the market is going to tank, which was my guess some short time ago, I hope it goes ahead and does it's thing instead of slowly dragging it's ass down the tubes and taking years to recover like the gold market seems to be doing. I also hope Japan gets it's own deal in gear, a bad Asian economy isn't doing anybody any good, least of all the Japanesse.

I have to admit it is kinda fun to watch though. It's not good, but it is at least interesting. It's always fun to see how people act and/or react when the world stops working by the rules they assumed to be true.


Here's hoping you aren't in the market when the rules change,


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 03:19
aurator () ID#257148:
IMG = IMF, just an alphabetical inflation, nothing to do with Mark McCormac ( sp? )

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 03:12
aurator (Just ANOTHER funnymental enigma) ID#257148:
Rumania has almost a 100 tonnes? Another country that is not included in the official statistics, just like Lebanon's 285 tonnes, the BIS' 1100 ( ? )
Does anyone know how much gold the oil producers hold? The Saudis? Kuwait? Brunei? the S Americans? How much did Soeharto squirrel away?

Noone knows ( ? ) the gold holdings of Russia and China, but, lookee
here, China, Russia and Indonesia are producers Nos 5, 6 & 7 in the

info; S.A. 495 US 329 AUS 289 CAN 164 CHINA 145 RUSSIA 130 INDONESIA 92

So I wonder how much gold is really held in the CB vaults. My guess is that the official CPM/IMG figures may be understimated.
Any thoughts?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 02:59
Junior (The Ground Swell Continues for Gold - Little by Little- from FT London) ID#248180:
Romania mints first gold coin in 54 years
Romania's central bank revived a 140-year-old tradition when it minted its first gold coins after a half-century interruption imposed by communist authorities. The coins have a face value of 500 and 1000 lei, equivalent to about 7 and 15 cents, but are being sold to Romanian customers for $167 and $418 respectively. Adrian Vasilescu, communications manager of Romania's central bank, said gold reserves in Romania stood at about 98 tonnes

The Euro$, The Islamic World, Parts of Malaysia, Seems like everyone wants Gold Coins and even very small ecomomies like Romania.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 02:54
aurator () ID#257148:
your 23:57, mentioned in passing that the jury system holds no special attraction. In NZ for some crimes the defendant can elect a trial by jury or by a judge alone. A couple of years ago a defendant, faced with the choice said:

Judge alone, please. Juries scare me. I don't want to put my fate in the hands of 12 people who aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 02:35
sharefin (Y2K: brownout, blackout or meltdown? ) ID#284255:
The Millennium Bug: How to Survive the Coming Chaos
This may be the first computer book that advises users to stockpile bottled water and gold coins. It combines the millennium bug with millennialist end-of-the-world panic in a readable form geared for computer novices.
Canadian Warns of a Billion Deaths
Key Document in Military's Plans
Government Sponsored a PR Session for the Grid
Lots more new articles at

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 02:34
aurator (RJ, TA, IMHO) ID#257148:

Err Gidday, thanks for your insights on charting. However your comment:

The point is this…….. Island top or bottom Rare birds, but they always tend to fly in the direction of the second gap, yes? Another example of technicals against fundamentals.

What does always tend to fly mean? Does it mean that once you see an island top and bottom ( which is what NZ is, if you permit me a sudden rush of patriotism ) then you will always see the direction in the second gap? Or just very often? ( I have, of course an example at hand, tho no URL for it, of a failure of this: Powergen a British Stock March 1993 )

The trouble I have always found with TA, such little as I have studied it, is that of TA's inherent language of equivocation, a bet each way. That is of course, the reason for money management and watching your stops. Fundamentals, though of little use for timing a trade, have the advantage of certainty. An historical imperative towards the dynamicism of supply and demand.

All IMHO, of course...

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 02:29
JIN (It's a long and winding road...) ID#206358:
Thursday July 30, 2:08 am Eastern Time

Japan's Obuchi looks back and forward at rocky road

( Updates with Obuchi comments )

By Brian Williams

TOKYO, July 30 ( Reuters ) - Incoming Japanese Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi on Thursday
promised speedy reform of the economy just hours before he was to take over one of the
world's most difficult jobs.

As Obuchi prepared to name the leadership team he hopes will pull Japan through one of its
most trying times in recent history, outgoing Finance Minister Hikaru Matsunaga predicted that
the arrival of a new government meant an economic recovery was on the horizon.

Obuchi is gambling that 78-year-old former prime minister Kiichi Miyazawa, his choice as
finance minister, can mastermind the turning around of the world's second-largest economy.

Watching over Obuchi's shoulder are a resurgent opposition confident of forcing an early
general election and financial markets determined to punish Obuchi and the Japanese yen if he
dithers in taking drastic action.

``We must set up a schedule for recovery as soon as possible and work towards each topic on
it as speedily as we can,'' Obuchi said in a farewell news conference as foreign minister.

Despite doubts about Miyazawa's age and reluctance to take the finance minster post, Obuchi
said Miyazawa was the man for the job.

``To our good fortune, Miyazawa has accepted the post of finance minister. He is a person
who has quite a lot of influence in a number of areas. He should become a good adviser,''
Obuchi said.

Outgoing Finance Minister Matsunaga said Japan's economy was in a severe state but he was
confident about the future.

``Japan's economy, which is now in a very severe situation, will start showing signs of a
recovery in a little while,'' Matsunaga said in his farewell news conference.

Parliament is scheduled to start its session to install Obuchi at 1 p.m. ( 0400 GMT ) with his
election expected about 5 p.m. ( 0800 GMT ) , followed immediately by his announcement of a
new cabinet.

The naming of the cabinet ends a saga that began on July 12 when Obuchi's predecessor,
Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto, led their Liberal Democratic Party ( LDP ) to a disastrous
setback in Upper House elections.

The result was a no-confidence vote in Hashimoto's stumbling efforts to kick-start the
once-powerful Japanese economy and it set off weeks of high political drama about his

Obuchi easily saw off two party challengers in a fight that pitted young reformers against his old
guard supporters to become LDP president and prime minister designate.

He has also survived bitter attacks at home and abroad on his bland image and ability to lead
the nation.

The criticism has raged to the last minute with his decision to make Miyazawa his point man on
an economy racked by record high unemployment and bankruptcies.

Miyazawa has his own doubts about if he can do the job.

``I have said repeatedly that I should not take this post, and I could make mistakes of judgment
because of my age,'' he told reporters on Wednesday.

Asked if he was forced to take the post, Miyazawa said: ``Yes, but I would like to take
advantage of my experience.''

Miyazawa, who has held 13 cabinet posts, including finance minister during the heyday of
Japan's late 1980s inflated asset price bubble, will become Japan's oldest finance minister in the
post-World War Two period.

Obuchi cannot expect the heat to lessen. The opposition plans a break with tradition on the
vote for prime minister by putting up its own symbolic candidate.

Under the scheme, instead of casting blank ballots or voting for individual party leaders, the
parties will nominate top opposition leader, Naoto Kan, head of the Democratic Party, as
prime minister in the Upper House, which does not have the authority to select the prime

However the tactic, described as a symbol to show Obuchi the opposition can unite and he can
expect stormy days ahead, will delay by several hours the normally brief and straight-forward
procedure that makes the head of the largest party in the Lower House the nation's prime

The long-ruling LDP has a comfortable 13-seat majority in the 500-seat Lower House but in
the 252-seat Upper House, the LDP is 21 seats short of a majority.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 02:14
Gold & Silver & Platinum Bug (August Von Finck & Homestake ) ID#434179:
And now for a real conspiracy !!!!!

Looking into my crystal golden ball I see the following future corporate developments in Homestake Mining.

September 20, 1998 - Von Finck announces he has acquired 25% of the company as per the SEC filing and has been elected to the board of directors.

October 10, 1998 - Homestake announces a $300 million private placement @ $12.00 per share to other 3 other German individuals known to be connected to the German Central Bank and several Swiss based financial institutions.

November 13, 1998 - 2 long time Homestake Directors retire.

November 20, 1998 - Von Finck announces that it is in the best interests of Homestake to change its Hedging policy from being 95% unhedged to an aggressive 100% hedged position. Von Finck arranges all further production to be sold at $430 US for the next ten years to unnamed counterparties... ( Con't in the near future )

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 02:03
RJ (..... A pale green dot in a vast sea of blue .....) ID#411259:

I recently had a hand in making up a guide for reading technical charts; something the company wants to send to clients as kind of a elementary primer. It was a group effort and my responsibilities fell to the graphics, I had to go through reams of chart data to find the patterns and indicators I needed. Showing trendlines and channels is easy enough, likewise stochastic and moving averages. Double tops and bottoms are fairly common, as is indeedy the case for head & shoulders formations. We’ve seen a couple pennants of late, silver has been rife with bull and bear flags, and don’t EVEN get me started on Fibonacci’s…………………. Yet I was able to find all the patterns with relative ease just by using the last few years of gold, silver, and platinum prices….. All, that is, ‘Cept one:

Damn Island tops and bottoms… You know, the one that gaps up after a pretty good rise, stays up a day or two, and then gaps down…? Use to indicate a major trend reversal? Much the same as a hanging man in candlesticks…… OK, so you know this one right

I couldn’t find a single example of a clear island top or bottom, complete with follow trough confirmation, in any of the metals. Not this year, nor last, nor even many trips-round-the-sun worth of metals prices….. AHA! I exclaimed aloud ( which is entirely redundant, as well as ineffective. I find it hard to imagine a silent exclamation that would carry more than a little weight or gram or two of severity…… but this is a major digression indeedy ) I will look at palladium! Shirley there is an island top to be found there? My hopes were dashed and I hung my head in despair. I finally had to go to soybeans to get the proper pattern to put in the chart to put in the brochure. Found a tidy little Island top there, followed by the requisite plunge into the unknown and hellish depths of a major price fall.

The point of all the bombast is this:

If I had waited 3 weeks, I could have found a real sweet island top in silver.

Just developed today. The warehouse numbers make no sense, and I still fear a run on COMEX stocks - of which the main importance may be found in perception rather than substance, as London is the true deliverer of silver to the world.

The point is this…….. Island top or bottom

Rare birds, but they always tend to fly in the direction of the second gap, yes?

Another example of technicals against fundamentals.

I know there is lots-o-silver in London, and we should experience the seasonal price lows APH speaks of, and I join in his suspicions of the weakness inherent in silver in these next couple weeks. ( Come and see the weakness inherent in the system! Help! I’m being repressed! Oh King, Aye? Very nice….. ) Read APH for the price levels, they are valid.

Could be grim.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 01:46
sharefin (Federal Power-Grab Threatens Liberty, States' Sovereignty) ID#284255:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 01:44
Gold & Silver & Platinum Bug (KitKat & Cross) ID#434179:
A cross can be done at any price between the bid and the ask. As for the commission it is fully negotiable.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 01:26
Grizz ('Twas only a few weeks ago when) ID#431366:
Bearish sentiment on this forum was blasphemy and the authors thereof
were either ignored or roundly criticized for their baseless opinions.
The bunch here would have figuratively tarred and feathered
anyone writing something like the following:

Gold and silver will continue to fall in value until the world
economy collapses. When the game is finally over, only one thing
will be worth more than Gold and Silver and that's Guns and ammo.
It's been nice watching this forum for the last few years
but as of tommorrow morning, I'll be moving out of gold & silver
and into iron and lead. ( Silverbear's 22:43 earlier tonight )

I am relieved to see more tolerance to views of the other side now.
Thank you to those few who persisted with such heretical opinions.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 01:19
Shadowfax__A () ID#290281:
Here is an interesting article from the Washington Post about WH scandals.

Also, back in the 18th century, while Alexander Hamilton was a sitting cabinet member, he was accused of being blackmailed as a result of his adultery with a married woman. His replied by taking out full page newspaper advertisements stating that, sadly, that affair was true, but no indeed, he had not been blackmailed.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 01:15
Spock (No Joy Here) ID#210114:

New York--Jly 29--Gold futures pushed to a 6-week low as the US dollar rose
against the yen, with the negative tone spilling over into other precious
metals. Platinum and palladium also suffered from the news that Russia's
Almaz has agreed on the conditions for this year's sales with some of its
Japanese buyers. By Melanie Lovatt, Bridge News, Story .2333

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 01:06
Shadowfax__A (James Grant ) ID#290281:
Grant's Asia Observer has a nice rundown of the Japanese bank rescue bill:

And, this is another nice freebie:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:55
blooper (EB) ID#207145:
Bought an extremely overvalued stock at the top of the cycle, just before a bear market. You must be a liberal. Go find ROR, he might buy them from you. If not sell tomorrow, and go back to school.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:53
EJ (so-called Summer Rally officially dead) ID#229207:
Bad craziness in the markets, fear an loathing of The Trend. The rubber band has been stretched too far out. No one wants to be anywhere but in a bar pounding down double martinis when it snaps back. The Great Experiment, 20 years of world economic interdependency based on mutual greed and fear, undergoes The Big Test. Will the system hold under the strain of worldwide deflation? Who will cave in first to internal political pressure and sell out their trading partners? I got unemployed people who VOTE here! so That's YOUR liability not MINE, pal!

Treasuries for sale in Japan, negative interest rates next. Debt makes the world go 'round, but who wants debt in a deflation?

The badness in Q3 will hammer the DOW this fall. The market will discount for Y2K in Q1 1999. Will low interest rates, needed to combat deflationary effects on business, help bonds? Where will the capital go?


Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:47
blooper (Unemployment, angry Unions(NAFTA)) ID#207145:
Next years problem. Wake up EB. Clinton might get lynched. For joy.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:46
Steve in TO__A (Mr. Disney - your prices are very . . . ) ID#287337:
good. Some of those items cost twice as much here in Toronto.

Toronto has the dubious distinction of being the 3rd most expensive city in North America ( behind New York and Vancouver. )

- Steve

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:44
Steve in TO__A (James - Peter Munk is not nearly the dummy you think . . . ) ID#287337:
he is. He lives here in Toronto & has had a lot to do with theToronto General Hospital & the UNiversity of Toronto. He is one shrewd operator! He may not know much about geology, or engineering, or anything technical- but he sure has mastered the Art of the Deal.

With regard to ABX not revealing the results of their due diligence, I can see why they didn't release them. They were in a hotseat. If they didn't release the results they were in danger of being sued by members of the public, which has come to pass. If they released the results they would be in danger of being sued by Bre-X, or by deluded pre-collapse shareholders. They also would have antagonized the Indonesian government, and no gold mining company wants to do that- Indonesia contains a lot of gold that these companies may want to mine someday in the future.

- STeve

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:43
blooper (EB) ID#207145:
You messed up and bought stock. Even in your retirement account, you screwed up. And Disney. Damn.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:40
blooper (Don't buy gold stocks) ID#207145:
Or any other stocks. They are being devalued. Take delivery, or keep it on your hip.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:39
EB ( mean..........blooped....) ID#187109:
Yes, you are right. I do see some similarities..........uh huh.
away.....from the end of the world as we know it...... ( REM ) ...

Tol#1 - Namasté and AGULP&PUFF to red carpet is ALWAYS rolled out for you too.........¡ohmy!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:38
Lurker 777 ($286 - Two Eight Six, Yes that is the number! ) ID#320226:
Last chance, are you ready? At $286 we can buy Mounties, American Eagles and Philharmoinic's for under $300.00 per oz. Buy a DECEMBER 1999 270 PUT for $4.30 per oz. ( $430.00 for a 100 oz. contract ) and have LESS than a 10% downside risk.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:38
blooper (Hey BART. WAKE UP!!!!!!!) ID#207145:
Thanks for the opportunity.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:31
Stilgar (chas - MM's earthquake site) ID#290306:

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:30
Goldilocks__A (Introducing myself) ID#377196:
Just wanted to say I've been lurking for several months and am totally addicted to Kitco by now. I've been riding the Gold rollercoaster now for many years and most particularly since about 3 years ago, and am about as underwater as one can be and still be alive. But, ever the enthusiast, I still keep hoping etc etc - Now at least I know a lot more about why I am underwater - at least I think I do, and can read hopeful stuff from other gold bugs when the going gets tough. ( Golum - what happened? Did you lose your touch, or did you fall asleep at the controls? If it will help, I'd be pleased to send you a nice package of gourmet coffee beans to help keep you alert. You were doing such a great job with silver. Howsabout looking for a few of the gold control levers too? ) I've greatly enjoyed all the words of wisdom and the lively sense of humor etc, and would like to thank Bart for establishing this forum for all of us. Wish I could be in Toronto tomorrow. If any of you is in the NY area, maybe we might consider establishing a first annual Kitco Dinner in NYC too. Thanks Goldilocks_A

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:29
Leland (What Clinton Swore Under Oath...) ID#31876:
Click on Clinton's January Testimony Under Oath About Monica
Lewinsky ... With what Starr can now prove, sheesh!!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:26
If only MY stock would split! Then I would own MORE of it! But at HALF of
the price, the split ain't worth scheiss, specially when it FALLS TWICE as fast!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:22
blooper (When you see it coming) ID#207145:
And you've read about it. And you've been warned . You don't buy.
Physical gold and cash or CDs. Be smart , or be sorry.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:18
blooper (People will be buyins stocks) ID#207145:
Like sheep being led to the slaughter. Don't buy stocks. Not with someonelses money. Stocks are contaminated. They carry the plague.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:15
blooper (Golden Cheesehead) ID#207145:
I hate to say the deal about 1929, but it looks like a huge Dow haircut.
Then the money goes into economy. Burns that up , rates rise, and no matter how you stimulate, the jobs are gone, along with demand. Worldwide. Got a good AK47? It be defense from there on.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:12
I don't! And I didn't!

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:10
BillinOregon (Golden Cheeshead) ID#262242:
Wow, GC, you sure have confidence in your ability to pick the lottery numbers. I sincerely hope you do win but I don't think I would bet the farm on it.

Tort, good to see you back, sure miss ted's posts, be glad when he gets his house built and is online again. Wonder if he still has his sea kayak?

Reify will be offline for a while, traveling to Toronto to attend the first annual Kitco dinner. I am looking forward to meeting him and other Kitcoites in N.Y. August 15th. Met Reify last year when i was in Israel, a true gentleman and gracious host.

Tolerant1, I don't drink ( well, maybe a little wine ) but I am looking forward to hoisting a few ( root beers ) with you.
August 17th, I will be in New Orleans
Sept. 24th I will be in Branson Mo.
Oct. 15th I will be in Terre Haute Ind.
Oct. 19th I will be in Oxford Ohio

would love to have coffee with any kitcoites in the area. Drop me an E-Mail

Where is your pension fund tonight?

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:02
larryn__A (yen/dollar) ID#316232:
One reason for the strength in the dollar is the difference in interest rates between the dollar ( 5.7% ) and the yen ( .5 ) , and one sign of the strong dollar is a dropping rate ( demand for bonds ) . Recognizing that there is a continuing interplay between the many factors, forced raising of US rates would strengthen the dollar and lower gold more. The Japanese could throw a wrench into the mess if they raised their own rates and pulled some yen back into their economy. The yen would partially recover and gold would rally.

Date: Thu Jul 30 1998 00:01
JTF (WJC's fortunes and the markets -- linked) ID#57232:
Torfeasor: It would be interesting so see if the Oldman can tell us why he thinks this. My guess is that it is a circular process. If the markets go down, WJC is more likely to be put to task. And -- if WJC is involved in a scandal that he cannot deal with ( or perception of same ) the markets will go down. Certainly confidence in the president being an effective 'leader' WRT the markets is part of the reason the markets cycle with the election cycle.
I think the evidence that WJC had an affair with Monica is overwhelming -- all of those gifts, 70+ photos, and now they will find WJC's DNA on the dress. You may be right -- that the public does not care that the president lied, but that is really as long as the economy is doing well. Just wait till everything goes sour -- if it happens well before Nov 1999, WJC is history, no matter how slick he is.

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