Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:59
farfel U>() ID#28585:
Producer...I am very well aware of the enormous stockpile of gold held by Central Banks and the fact that this stockpile dwarfs annual gold mining supply. I have been an active investor in this industry for 10 years. However, this fact does not preclude the gold mining industry from operating in a cartel-like fashion ( Incidentally, just for your own info, the DeBeers cartel has never had complete control over world diamond supply. Russia remains outside the jurisdiction of their control. DeBeers has managed to use much suasion to get Russia to tow the line...sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't ) .

Markets are to a large degree are more reactive to psychology than fundamentals. Yes, the fundamentals are explicit...huge stockpiles of gold at the CB's. However, the psychology factor is not to be denied. If Central Banks were to witness consolidation hand in hand with a sharp reduction in output...the very industry that feeds their stockpiles...then I guarantee the CB's will take a different approach to whether they retain or sell gold.

The best example of psychology completely overwhelming fundamentals lies in the hi-tech sector of the stock market. How else can one explain or rationalize companies with essentially no earnings trading at P/E ratios of 90 and higher.

I advocate that the gold mining industry get out of the Stone Age and enter the 21st century. In the face of the so called New Paradigm in the financial sector, it is time for the gold mining industry to create its own unique Paradigm -- the Gold Paradigm, let's call it. This paradigm should be a radical departure from the way things have always been done in the industry. Unfortunately, one of the greatest handicaps to the Gold Mining industry shaking things up is the presence of so many over-50
dinosaurs populating the executive ranks. They simply cannot see the forest for the trees. You should take note that the majority of Central Bankers who are making the decisions to toss gold into the wastebasket of history are 30-45 years old...a whole generation younger than the gold mining executive fossils. It is absolutely imperative that the gold mining industry infuse itself with younger blood at the macro level of financial planning. It is necessary to fight fire with fire! In doing so, fresher, more radical ideas and approaches will ultimately save the day.

Cut Supply Sharply and Focus on Creating Demand!
Co-operate, consolidate, and Shutdown!

P.S. I've been in a room with gold mining execs and the atomosphere of BO is fairly bearable. I believe the obstacle can be overcome through a combination of hygenic re-education and ample supplies of alcohol-based deodorant.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:59
aurator U>(Have you heard about the midnight rambler?) ID#257148:
JTF, have not read that book, but listened rapt to the BBC radio play of Hitch-hikers guide to the galaxy back in the 70's had it on tape. I Never go anywhere without a half of lager, some peanuts and a towel.
Can't help Nick the sharefinarator in Cairns, would if could. He is several thousand km away and across a large ditch. They even speak a different tongue over there, it's called 'strine, I think they learned it off the roos, eh Nick@C?

Sunspots JTF? you done it with sunspots? Lets, do some sleight of fingers, from 1900 to todaythat's about 100 years, periodicity of sunspots ( some cobwebby memory says 11 years? ) so from here in math gets this, approx 9 or 10 periods of intense spot activity affecting stock prices in past century? What are these time periods? I'd have to say that 1971/1972 must be there. So too, '87. hummm...

Are there any periods of non-correlation you have found? Where there is sunspot activity but the ants ( thats us ) just go about merrily on their way? I hope you will share more of your findings.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:57
Lan Man U>(@U.S. Fed lender of last resort & the Monetary Act of 1980) ID#31766:
From The McAlvany Intelligence Advisor - December 1997 Issue

Question: By what authority can the Fed and Treasury bail out the U.S. stock market and the world financial system?

Answer: The Monetary Control Act of 1980.

What is the Monetary Control Act of 1980? The November 1982 issue of MIA, featured an article entitled The Anatomy of An Inflationary Bailout

On March 21, 1980, the U.S. Congress passed by a vote of 380 to 13, with little fanfare or publicity, The Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act of 1980. Strongly backed by the Carter Administration and the Fed, the Monetary Control Act was described as a technical banking bill which would phase out Regulation Q and gradually raise interest rates payable to small savers. Most Congressmen never even read this technical banking bill. As it turns out, the Monetary Control Act is potentially the most inflationary piece of legislation ever passed by any country in the history of the world, giving the U.S. Fed the legal status of LENDER OF LAST RESORT TO THE ENTIRE WORLD.

Six key points of the ACT and how they are being ( or may soon be ) applied is listed below:

A ) THE FED CAN MONITIZE MUNICIPAL BONDS AND FOREIGN DEBT [Section 105 ( 2 ) ] - The Act changes what constitutes a legal reserve for the banking system so that effective June 1, 1981, the Open Market Committee of the Fed became able to expand the money supply by purchasing ( in addition to U.S. Treasury Paper ) : ( 1 ) revenue bonds; ( 2 ) warrants with a maximum of six months maturity issued in anticipation of the receipt of taxes or revenues by ANY state, county, district, political subdivision, or municipality, including irrigation, reclamation and drainage districts; ( 3 ) All obligations of foreign governments or their agencies; ( 4 ) obligations of foreign banks IF they are guaranteed by the bank's government.

By the end of August 1982, the Fed had used the foreign debt purchase ( bailout ) provision of the Monetary Control Act 70 times! The paper is bought on the open market in Western Europe with the Fed Bank of Boston used as primary buyer. ( The Richmond, Kansas City, and Philadelphia banks have also been recent buyers. ) Total foreign debt bought by the Fed under the Act by the end of 1981 was $3.3 billion.

It is likely that the Act is being used to purchase the debt of the Mexican government and its banks. This is the primary reason our highly exposed money center bankers and the Fed pushed the Mexican government to nationalize the Mexican banks. The Fed could not buy their paper under the Act unless it was guaranteed by the Mexican government. This just proves that all is fair in love, war, and international finance.

This provision of the Act makes the Fed the lender of last resort for the entire world and is probably why the Fed proposed the new $25 billion international bailout fund in September. All of the finance ministers of the world have copies of the Act and probably know this section verbatim.

U.S. corporations and banks per se are not covered by this section, ( they are covered by the Omnibus Banking Bill and H. Con. Res. 290 ) . However, if the U.S. government guarantees a corporation's paper ( i.e., Chrysler ) then the FED CAN MONITIZE IT!

B ) UNLIMITED QUANTITIES OF CASH WITH NO COLLATERAL AT REGIONAL FED BANKS [Section 105 ( 6 ) ( B ) ] - Collateral shall not be required for the Federal Reserve Notes which are held in the vaults of the regional Federal Reserve Banks. Therefore billions of dollars in cash can be stored in the regional Fed banks for emergency distribution, in case of a bank run.

C ) THE FED CAN WAIVE THE RESERVE REQUIREMENTS TO ZERO [Section 103 ( 2 ) ( D ) ( 3 ) ] - The Fed can suspend ( with a vote of only five board members ) all reserve requirements in the banking system for 180 days, and then another 180 days, and then another, and another, etc. In other words, the reserves can be reduced to ZERO by the Fed, making infinite credit expansion now legal.

D ) BANK HOLIDAYS [Section 705B ( 2 ) ( 6 ) ( 1 ) ] - Bank holidays, in the event of a natural calamity, riot, insurrection, war, or other emergency, can be declared on a state-by-state basis or region-by-region basis at the discretion of the Comptroller of the Currency, a State, or designated State officials.

E ) ALL DEPOSITORY INSTITUTIONS UNDER FED LENDING UMBRELLA [Section 103 ( 7 ) ] - All depository institutions ( all banks, all S&L's, all credit unions, etc ) are brought under the jurisdiction of the Fed and can now borrow from the Fed's discount window in an emergency. [Ed. Note: The title of the bill is Deregulation whereas the bill institutes new Regulation of all depository institutions - a classic use of the 1984-style Orwellian double think.]] All depository institutions were placed under the Fed's control, with the distinction between Fed members and non-members thus erased.

F ) MINIMUM BANK RESERVE REQUIREMENTS SHARPLY LOWERED - This will create an additional $18 billion in lendable funds by 1984.

Conclusion: Under the Monetary Control Act of 1980, the Federal Reserve System is given total control over all U.S. financial institutions and the legal authority during some future ( or current ) banking crisis to literally hyperinflate both currency and credit in order to bail out Mexico, Poland, and other defaulting international debtors. [Ed note: This may now include all of Asia.] The inflationary implications are horrendous! The U.S. Federal Reserve is now the LENDER OF LAST RESORT FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD!

The coming world deflation ( or deflationary depression ) could ultimately turn into an inflationary depression ( at least in America ) as the U.S. Fed, acting as the world's lender of last resort, hyperinflates the U.S. dollar in its efforts to bail out the entire world. In that event, gold ( and silver ) might be the only financial assets to survive.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:57
oris U>(@JTF) ID#238422:
I always enjoy watching some silly movies ( made in USA ) - a spooky
picture of Russian mafia bosses sitting in a steamy saunas with vodka, babes and towels around their naked bodies. The ones that know where
the Russian gold is ( Russian platinum also ) are never shown in those
movies. They are usually shown in ... read my lips ...

I would guess we can easily eliminate Russia from consideration
in regard to gold game, but definitely not from the platinum game.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:56
John Disney__A U>(Karlito99 - From Russia with Love ) ID#24140:
For Karlito99

You forecast tirelessly that the gold price will fall.

You press this point relentlessly. You stay at a site

that is clearly for people who are interested in gold

and think it will go up.

Please tell me why you do this

What are your investments. Are you long the s/p?

or short gold? or long silver

Are you trying to save all of us from ourselves

What are your motives and what are those

speeches you are making about

What you say is predictable and tiresome. But your

agenda fascinates me. Who do you work for

for farfel

Hurrah for whoever wrote that letter on Munk. Munk

is smart. No question. Its his shareholders that I have

doubts about.

For golddkm.

Yes Vaal Fregold Kloof all under 500 mill market

cap. Sounds cheap hey. With ABX at 6500 mill. Do you

believe that ABX is worth 4 times as much as Vaal,

Kloof, and freegold put together? It shows the

effect that a steady diet of hype and horse hockey

will have on the Western mind.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:51
Ted U>(@ ROR + Aurator) ID#364147:
Recipes later....What happened Saturday? Aurator: Who ya rootin fer ( 49ers or Broncos? ) go whales!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:41
JTF U>(Will the Whales save us? sharefin says ISP still down!) ID#57232:
Aurator: Have you read So long and thanks for all the Fish? Great book - by the same author that did Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

It seems that all the Porpoises on Earth got fed up with all of our ( human ) antics and decided to go to another planet. If you are able to communicate with your Whale friends ( whom I thought were now visiting Ted ) please ask them if we are worth saving. If you see any extraterrestrial craft big enough for a whale landing in the water, and none for human size passengers, it may be a bad sign for us humans. Please let us Kitcoites know what you find out.

Seriously, what internet service provider do you have? Do you know of any in Cairns? I don't know exactly where sharefin lives, but you probably do. He is in sore need of another ISP pronto. I miss his great graphs too!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:40
goldbeater U>(software and the platinum deep six) ID#37867:
Is there a website that provides a charting service that provides a user with buy and sell signals. I really don't what to purchase a software package if its no needed.

Has anyone heard what the bottom for platinum is. I haven't been following it lately and I was shocked to see it taking the deep six.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:36
themissinglink U>(Japan and Korea) ID#373403:
Just think of all that IMF money making it's way into the Korean stock market and the freshly printed U.S. currency in the Nikkei. Aaaaaaah, capitalism!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:34
ROR U>(TED) ID#35767:
As a vegetarian I would like instructions and a recipe for various VEGI dishes using a crockpot including but not limited to vegetarian chili. I think my wife is trying to kill me with all the beef dishes for the kids. Thanks.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:31
Dwayne__A U>(Federal Reserve) ID#270230:

Sorry my post said bull market should have been BEAR MARKET

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:31
STUDIO.R U>(@cherokee...I hear distant ...C.S.N.&Y. sounds....) ID#93232:
Somethins' happenin' here...what it is ain't exactly clear.

I got that spookey-shakin' feelin' tonight...that tomorrow ain't goin' to be just right.

brother, pack the pipe.


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:31
cherokee__A U>(@---one-more-time----) ID#344308:

you do mean 'bear' market don't you?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:29
Beamer U>(U.S. Dollar - The New Gold Standard?) ID#26144:
Yep - i'ts getting pretty scarey from where I sit.... The U.S. Dollar
is the standard by which every other currency or commodity is measured.
This morning certain members of ASEAN said they would like to see more than one international world currency - I hope this anger against the dominance of the American $ doesn't boil over very soon. ( This is a society in which expatriate baseball players are paid $75MILLION over 6 years, and yet many are close to starving....... ) As many of you have said, Hey, if we need more money, let's just print it! ) Recent biblical references to gold being OF NO VALUE may be accurate ..

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:28
Dwayne__A U>(Federal Reserve) ID#270230:

I am not saying it will happen, but me for one will not be totally surprized if rates are decreased to push the dollar lower. If something isn't done about the strong dollar US$ the trade debt will look pretty ugly in 6-12 months. The rates could drop 25-50 points and rise as quickly as the Asian flu will begin showing slight kicks out of Critical Conditions ( perhaps as little as 4-6 weeks ) . In the meantime this spells an immediate end to the bull market of GOLD which seems to have gone on longer than it should have, by any historians view - Greenspan follows gold..

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:28
JTF U>(A Greenspan at the helm) ID#57232:
D.A. : I agree with you about AG. Don't know RR that well from reading about him. But -- both of them know what to do -- and it is clear that it must be done quickly. I guess -- given the consequences -- I would be willing to risk some US inflation from the bailout. I wonder -- just how does one ferret out all the key loans to make sure they are covered. It saddens me though to think of the fact that we are talking about banks and financial centers and not people. In wartime it is always the innocents that suffer the most. Also it seems during financial crises, when all attention is focused on the financiers who maintain the money supply.

Also this clearly shows where the focus will be in the US if we have similar problems -- the financial system. The stock market is secondary, because if the financial system goes, so does the stock market anyway.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:28
cherokee__A U>(@----oh-yeah---------) ID#344308:
the eurodollar is positioned to make another
big move down. it has fully recovered from
the last downdraft. puts are VERY cheap. ( again )

if bald-headed al raises rates these puppies
will pay-off better than the ones two weeks

c$ looks good too. for puts.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:23
aurator U>(skip past this 'un) ID#257148:
G'day, no noone 'as told me the name of the picture book of the Klondike gold-rushes. sometimes one has to ask a couple of times, and then gets labelled a smegging Longhorn Foghorn, or is that a Foghorn Longhorn? I dunno, but the site that Éß's evil twin posted crashed my computer, should update to v4.0 one day, perhaps 31/12/99 ( don't that dater format drive you wild? )

Your evil twin/dobbleganger is creating mayhem, skating on my HD..shall bundle him up and send him back got win95 mate?

Some ISP provider, although I remember looking out of the 'plane heading into TO and down on all that, what is it Tundra? Desert, Sometimes get the idea that Canada is a little like Australia, a lucky Country, Huge, and mostly desert. Down in NZ there are Charters etc to view the Whales off the Kaikoura coast and off the Bay of Plenty too Nick. The kaikoura coast was briefly in the news in the '80s for numerous UFO sightings...Whales, UFO's, Global Warming, Depressed gold prices and it IS BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS TO EVEN VRONSKY that the whales have landed to turn the world into a sea planet, but before everything is under water, they gotta get all our gold, see. I mean these terra-forming ( well aqua-forming ) capers take a lot of Inter-Galactic credits, if you get my drift, someone has to pay for the expedition, and gold is accepted anywhere in this sweet gold galaxy...

BTW, as I mentioned previously, I am the Whales agent. You can postpone this inglorious fate of the earth by handing over your gold to the umble foggie & horny aurator, I shall make sure it gets into the proper hands.



Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:19
cherokee__A U>(@-----shooting-red-white-and-blue-flaming-arrows-skyward--------we-need-a-hero---) ID#344308:

i must take issue with your portrayal of the right people ( ag )
being in the right places. the financial 'gurus'

we need a hero. a butt kickin hero with the garbanzos to
stand-up and do the things that HAVE to be done NOW.
HE needs to tell the american people the truth and use
the media as they have used us. mercilessly.

we need a president who cares not for how he is/will ( be )
perceived now and in the future. take the hard road and
pursue with dogged determination the hand-full of blatantly
obvious problems plauging the us. ie...immigration, budget, gov't abuses,
fractionation of races ( affirmative action; ( -------etc....

fix what is wrong here at home and the
rest of the world will prosper in the periphery
of what we can be again------the shining light that the rest
of the world aspires to, and clamors to be a part of.

look at willy ----gays in the military! wow----world-wide problem!!
look at billary---socialization of health-care! wow----in the us!

how can this happen? is america so fat and lazy as to laugh and
sing while billary sells our gov't to the
highest ( china ) bidder? who was it that fiddled whilst rome burned?

better pass out the fiddles, i smell smoke.....the signals have been sent

; ) ---driver-of-the-ssmfatimmbmiydbi

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:15
JTF U>(Russian Gold!) ID#57232:
oris: I bet one group knows where the Russian gold is - probably their CB gold too! The Russian Mafia! However, I don't know how eager they are to sell it for the sake of Mother Russia.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:15
Selby U>(Raise the Rates) ID#287207:
Canadian economy may

be in virtuous circle - OECD

OECD slashes world growth forecast

Table: Breakdown of OECD economic outlook


OTTAWA ( Reuters ) - The Canadian economy, still finding

itself with ample slack, may find itself in a virtuous circle as

job growth and substantial economic growth feed on each

other, the economic think-tank OECD said on Monday.

The Organization for Economic Cooperation and

Development said in its semi-annual survey of member

states that Canadian growth has continued to gather

momentum as low interest rates fuel business and

household spending.

It raised its projection for the country's real Gross

Domestic Product growth in 1998 to 3.5 percent from the

3.4 percent it had forecast in mid-November in a special

report on Canada. It pegged 1997 growth at 3.6 percent

and 1999 at 3.3 percent.

Buoyant activity, combined with ongoing fiscal

retrenchment at all levels of government, has resulted in the

first budget surplus since the early 1970s, it said.

The pick-up in output has translated into healthy job

creation, and there are indications that improving labor

market conditions are helping to establish a 'virtuous circle'

of stronger employment growth leading to increased

confidence, higher household incomes, and continued

overall economic expansion, it said.

It added that given ample slack in product and labor

markets and given strong capital spending, there was scope

for robust non-inflationary growth in coming quarters.

But inflationary pressure might emerge if the pace of

economic activity did not moderate to the extent the OECD

was projecting.

Canada had more room for manoeuver due to the

improved fiscal situation and fundamentals, but the OECD

pointed to risks both of a slowdown or inflation.

On the one hand, it could be premature to assume that a

self-sustaining expansion is assured, it said, explaining that

liquidity constraints or asset price reversals could lead to

household retrenchment.

On the other hand, a continued improvement in

employment and income trends could further fuel consumer

confidence and unleash pent-up demand.

This could entail inflation pressure, requiring a stronger

rise in interest rates than assumed and leading to a more

cyclical outlook for the economy.

The OECD said the recent deterioration in the current

account probably overstated the underlying situation, since

demand shifted towards industrial machinery and cars,

boosting imports, while exports were affected by temporary

problems in the motor vehicle industry.

It projected long-term federal bond rates falling from 7.5

percent in 1996 to 6.5 percent this year and 6.2 percent in

1998 and in 1999. Ninety-day finance company paper was

seen rising to 4.1 percent next year and 4.5 percent in 1999

from 3.4 percent in 1997 and compared with 4.4 percent in


Given favorable economic fundamentals, Canadian

long-term interest rates are assumed to remain broadly

unchanged despite the projected increase in comparable

U.S. rates, implying some widening in the negative

differential that has emerged recently, it said.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:15
Selby U>(Raise the Rates) ID#287207:
Canadian economy may

be in virtuous circle - OECD

OECD slashes world growth forecast

Table: Breakdown of OECD economic outlook


OTTAWA ( Reuters ) - The Canadian economy, still finding

itself with ample slack, may find itself in a virtuous circle as

job growth and substantial economic growth feed on each

other, the economic think-tank OECD said on Monday.

The Organization for Economic Cooperation and

Development said in its semi-annual survey of member

states that Canadian growth has continued to gather

momentum as low interest rates fuel business and

household spending.

It raised its projection for the country's real Gross

Domestic Product growth in 1998 to 3.5 percent from the

3.4 percent it had forecast in mid-November in a special

report on Canada. It pegged 1997 growth at 3.6 percent

and 1999 at 3.3 percent.

Buoyant activity, combined with ongoing fiscal

retrenchment at all levels of government, has resulted in the

first budget surplus since the early 1970s, it said.

The pick-up in output has translated into healthy job

creation, and there are indications that improving labor

market conditions are helping to establish a 'virtuous circle'

of stronger employment growth leading to increased

confidence, higher household incomes, and continued

overall economic expansion, it said.

It added that given ample slack in product and labor

markets and given strong capital spending, there was scope

for robust non-inflationary growth in coming quarters.

But inflationary pressure might emerge if the pace of

economic activity did not moderate to the extent the OECD

was projecting.

Canada had more room for manoeuver due to the

improved fiscal situation and fundamentals, but the OECD

pointed to risks both of a slowdown or inflation.

On the one hand, it could be premature to assume that a

self-sustaining expansion is assured, it said, explaining that

liquidity constraints or asset price reversals could lead to

household retrenchment.

On the other hand, a continued improvement in

employment and income trends could further fuel consumer

confidence and unleash pent-up demand.

This could entail inflation pressure, requiring a stronger

rise in interest rates than assumed and leading to a more

cyclical outlook for the economy.

The OECD said the recent deterioration in the current

account probably overstated the underlying situation, since

demand shifted towards industrial machinery and cars,

boosting imports, while exports were affected by temporary

problems in the motor vehicle industry.

It projected long-term federal bond rates falling from 7.5

percent in 1996 to 6.5 percent this year and 6.2 percent in

1998 and in 1999. Ninety-day finance company paper was

seen rising to 4.1 percent next year and 4.5 percent in 1999

from 3.4 percent in 1997 and compared with 4.4 percent in


Given favorable economic fundamentals, Canadian

long-term interest rates are assumed to remain broadly

unchanged despite the projected increase in comparable

U.S. rates, implying some widening in the negative

differential that has emerged recently, it said.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:13
Earl U>(@ money meltdown.) ID#227238:
D.A.: Your worst fears are completely unfounded. Everyone knows that we goldbugs, purveyors of utter and complete gloom and doom, have been consistently wrong. Nearly forever. Or so it would seem. So rest easy, on your PM stash, and watch the game. Fuss if it suits you but the outcome will be determined by others. That is: those who are responsible for starting the mess. ........ As usual, I think your analysis is correct and your points are well taken.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:06
Ted U>(@ EB) ID#364147:
Go Bulls~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:05
HighRise U>(HARD ASSETS vs the S&P) ID#401460:
I follow the Van Eck Hard assets funds and I just noticed that they appear to be a leading indicator for the S&P - could this be true. These funds are in a major retreat with the S&P still struggling to hold on. IMHO either the hard assets are going to rebound or the S&P is going to collapse.

Hard Assets investment distribution:
37% Energy
13% Industrial Metals
10% Paper & Forest Products
6% Precious Metals
34% Real Estate Investments
0% Cash Equivalents

Any comments would be appreciated

Thanks, HighRise

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 23:00
tolerant1 U>(Public Relations) ID#31868:
The constant flurry of information pouring out in the form of Press Releases is hilarious to me. They say the FED won't raise rates because they don't want to rock the boat and make matters worse.

In addition they constantly say the they are trying to gauge the trouble in Asia. The boat is sinking, the gauge is pegged in the red zone and they are now in a no win situation IMHO.

Running the press is not the answer. They are throwing billions and billions and it is having no effect. The Asian contagion, call it what you will is wreaking havoc around the globe and it is only a matter of time until it hits a currency near you.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:58
EB U>(Ted the VEG(etarian).......and mighty CANuck) ID#22956:
Thanks for the article you mailed me. I think it's good enough to post, EH And rather apropos... tamàle time...yum,yum


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:56
Jung U>(In a deflation ...) ID#237164:
Lets say you are in Korea. Businesses are going broke left and right.
A cousine of mine said that his tenents want out of the 'lease'. Their
rental agreements go something like this. If you want a floor of a building, then you fork over a large sum of money. There is no further
rental payment as there is here in the States. Then when you want to leave, then you give a 30-day, or whatever, notice that you intend to
leave and the capital is supposed to be returned to you. The landloard
invests, or uses the money anyway he wants while the tenent is in the
building. Now, suppose you are the landlord and invested the money in
the stock market or in other buildings ... oops there goes the bubble!

I heard in the locker room, here in the states, that there are buildings
up for sale at bagain prices. A friend asked me if that was true. I don't know. But in a deflation and under contracting cash conditions
I could well imagin that landlords would be in a severe bind.

Now if you were going to buy gold, or if you have gold, might you not
sell the gold and buy up more property at depressed prices? In Korea,
it is my understanding that currently it is illegal to own gold, so
what's happening in Korea is unlikely to be the source of the downward pressure.

Note in tonight's Kitco chart that as asia markets opened, we lost all the gains of the day. When Hong Kong opened, there was a marked drop.

I am guessing that the currency exhange rate is such that gold at 283 us$
is still a good price to sell at.

I am sorry that I have no facts, numbers to back up my previous statements.

I wonder if there are any readers in Hong Kong or in Japan or in Korea
who might confirm what's going on in Asia. My wife thinks it a bit
puriant that I am spending as much time as I do reading about what's
happening in the east. But I think it is a once in a life time preview.


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:56
Producer U>(Issue of trust) ID#226355:
Farfel-The industries you mention as acting as cartels have the ability to set their own prices. This is something that the Gold mining industry has never and will never have. The scenario that you describe will not work. The most successful cartel on the planet, DeBeers only succeeds through total control of the product. Central banks control 1.11 BILLION ounces of gold.This overriding fact makes any attempt at cornering a gold market through a gold mining cartel formation futile. CB's are the 800 lb gorilla here.

As to the new paradigm, you are preaching to the choir on this issue.
And yes we do smell; I'm sorry it had to come out in such a public forum.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:54
STUDIO.R U>(@ GOD OF FIRE ....don't rattle me...I thought I had it straight.) ID#93232:
Now I'm thinking vanilla maybe, good vanilla action lately...16:1 to chocolate...maybe I ought to just wait? geeze...wait?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:50
Ted U>(D.A. and Pork Bellies) ID#364147:
Thankx....but I'm a vegetarian....

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:48
D.A. U>(implosion) ID#7568:

The real economic fallout from all of this madness in SE Asia is something which be handled. The big difficulty is the bank balance sheet problem which has really nasty global implications. The hundreds of billions of dollars in bad loans are spread throughout more banks than those of just SE Asia. These loans are on the books of all the big banks of the world. If the countries of SE Asia declare a 'debt moratorium' ( a more pleasing wording than default ) then we could face a liquidity crisis in the rest of the world. Capital ratios at banks with bad exposure would decline dramatically impeding their ability to make continued loans. Depositors, will move to withdraw funds from any banks which show even the slightest deterioration. This will exacerbate the problem. It is well within the realm of possibility that we could have a complete and total financial meltdown. This would in all likelyhood lead to wars, both civil and other. Not something a sane person would welcome.

On the bright side, the powers that be are fully aware of the possibilities. This is AG's worst nightmare and the one thing above all else that will be fought with 100% vigor. I believe that the Fed and the Treasury will end run congress and supply money and credit in copious quantities. If enough cash is thrown at the problem, and it is done so without further delay, the tide can be turned. The cost will be some extra inflation down the road but this is a small price to pay against the possibility of global catastrophe.

I think what is holding up the show is that AG and RR realize that this is a time where they can also extract some concessions from the rest of the world in exchange for the bailout. Look for vast changes in the level of transparancy required by those countries wishing to 'join the club'.

As much as we like to poke fun at these people, I for one am glad they are at the helm. There is a good deal of smarts in our court, and we're going to need it all.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:48
oris U>(@JTF) ID#238422:

JTF, you post of 21:51 sounds pretty logical.

Nothing really to add to it, my only concern that gold price will
be flat for a while ( assuming it is not going below $275 ) , so be ready
to sit tight and not to panic, although I feel you are not going to..

In regard to EURO/GOLD combo I think we should watch Swiss guys
real close. They should give us a real good indication what will
happen in the near term, they are PRO's, we just got to find the
way to read their lips...

Russia is in trouble and will be in trouble for many years, too big
country and too much vodka. A lot of gold also, but nobody knows where
it is and who owns it..

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:46
6pak U>(trust eh! @ Labour and government and business [SUITS] (FEAR OF THE PEOPLE)) ID#335190:
December 15, 1997
Lawmaker seeks U.S. funding links in Carey scandal

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - A lawmaker investigating the illegal campaign fund-raising scheme surrounding Teamsters union President Ron Carey on Monday asked the Labor Department if it had funded any of 30 entities linked to the scandal.

In a letter, Rep. Pete Hoekstra, a Michigan Republican, asked Labor Secretary Alexis Herman how much money, if any, the department had given over the past three years to the 29 organizations and Terry McAuliffe, President Clinton's former campaign finance director.

Hoekstra, who chairs the House Education and the Workforce subcommittee on oversight and investigations, asked the department to provide the information, as well as any audits it may have conducted of the funds, by Dec. 29.

The list includes McAuliffe, the AFL-CIO labor union federation and groups like Citizen Action and the November Group. Most of those named were implicated in the scandal through guilty pleas by three former Carey campaign aides or in two other published investigations issued so far.

One listed group that was implicated in the scheme, the National Council for Senior Citizens, received grants totaling more than $60 million from the department, Hoekstra said. He asked that the department audit those funds.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:40
Ray U>(no good paper ) ID#411149:
D.A.- your 21:46, I believe it is called MONEY MELTDOWN!

Tally Ho

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:39
EB U>(I get only 18 hours......!?) ID#22956:
D.A. - Then I had better hussle.......I think we may be setting up for a nice chart formation......the bulls and the bears will struggle for a while as they did this through through August/Sept. and then BONK! down we go......We shall see.....but I bet before it's through we will have seen an obvious sell signal ;- ) I NEED THAT WINK DUDE......for posterity as well as Victory!!!! Tick-Tock, Tick-Tock......ohmy!

go bonckos!!! er.....Broncos the charts..and the game, pero claro!


oh hell D.A. who am I ebottom will fall right outta this thing.....there won't be a battle. The bulls will fold....just like they will Wednesday night against the Ted?!?!?~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:38
cherokee__A U>(@------16-days-or-less-------------) ID#344308:
regarding the c$ and the canadian economy.

they are both ready to collapse. mexico may be
in better shape than canada, but not by much.

put options on the c$ will pay off big soon.

we are witnessing the righting of a wrong on an
international scale.

the currencies, one by one, are falling prey
to the speculators who recognize golden opportunities
abound. speculators control ANY currency that
is not backed by a commodity. having curriencies
supported by gold or silver relegates the printing
entity to boundaries. ( amt of $$ printed )

they do not like boundaries, and thus have tried
to eliminate ALL curriencies from ANY backing.

the financial tsunami in-exorably rushes silently
towards the gilded towers of financial mecca. the
religo-wailer-dude howls his tribute to his god,
whilst the god of the greedy ones comes for his
servants and their spawn. their's will be one of
instantaneous poverty, while the bitter seeds sown
for so many years will bear many a bitter harvest.

----it is so obvious------hello---hello-----

cherokee!; ) ------time-is-short--

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:37
6pak U>() ID#335190:
December 15, 1997
Fed to hold rates steady as Asia woes mount

WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - The Federal Reserve is set to leave key interest rates unchanged Tuesday as it tries to gauge the effects of the deepening financial crisis in Asia on growth and inflation in the world's biggest economy. Most Fed watchers expect the central bank to hold rates steady to avoid inflicting further damage on already reeling global markets. Policy-makers' hands will be tied until well into 1998 even as signs of overheating in the domestic economy are growing harder to ignore, the analysts said.

They don't want to rock the boat, said Sung Won Sohn, chief economist at Minneapolis-based Norwest Corp. They themselves do not know how much the Asian turmoil will affect the U.S. economy -- nobody really knows. It's a wild guess.

Growing wage pressures at home may thus offset beneficial effects of the Asian crisis and make it equally unlikely that Fed policy-makers would lower rather than increase short-term rates, as some economists have urged the central bank to do.

The Fed is expected to announce its decision on rates around 2:15 p.m. .

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:34
Prometheus U>(chocolate) ID#189273:
I dunno, Studio.R, fine chocolate is awfully pricey these days. Aren't you worried about getting in at the top?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:26
I made a handsome offer to Karlito to manage my new candy store...he scoffed...rudely rejected my gesture. I hate to see a mind go to waste...but, it this particular case, it may be for the best. I get the impression he thinks chocolate is going to tank, I must buy more chocolate. Does anybody know what chocolate was selling for in 1931 on the south side of Chicago? I need to know where the bottom is.

You guys promise me you won't buy chocolate 'til Wednesday...don't get in my way tomorrow. GO CHOCOLATE!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:24
JTF U>(SEAsia Implosion?) ID#57232:
D.A.: How does your scenario change if we have a sharp drop in trade from SEAsia for a period of time? I would think that, commodity prices in the US would go up, if China can't take up the slack. Sure is hard to predict what will happen, given the turmoil! This is getting a bit much for me -- I understand why you were so worried earlier.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:13
JTF U>(Something from sharefin -- his ISP is still down!) ID#57232:
KUALA LUMPUR, Dec 15 ( Reuters ) - Southeast Asian leaders said on Monday that bailout packages had failed to halt a regional financial crisis and called on the United States, European Union and Japan to face up to the global dimension of the turmoil. Leaders of the nine-member Association of South East Asian Nations ( ASEAN ) released a joint statement in the Malaysian capital saying rescue packages led by the International Monetary Fund ( IMF ) had not ended damaging currency upheaval. But it stopped short of saying what type of further aid outside powers should provide, amid disagreement over the role of the IMF in trying to stem the crisis which Malaysia's leader said had set back the region's hopes of catching up with developing countries.

MY COMMENT: Sounds like a desperate call for help! Also this is not what you would expect Mahathir ( sp? ) to say, is it?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:07
farfel U>(Don't Trust Any Gold Producer Over the Age of 30!!!!) ID#28585:
Producer...sorry, I did not want to awaken any disturbing childhood flashbacks. However, my point is this: the financial bulls are convincing the American people to pour their money into stocks and bonds by virtue of continuous reference to the New Paradigm. This intellectual construct ( which is really just another form of snake oil, similar to Bernie Cornfeld's IOS in the '60's; or Mike Milken's junk bonds in the '80's ) revolves around the notion that the stock and bond markets operate under a new set of rules, e.g., Astronomical stock P/E's are acceptable because of increased American productivity via computerization. Another thesis posited by the New Paradigm is that gold, once a hallowed monetary reserve, is no longer relevant to this world except as a mere commodity.

What does this tell you? It means that the gold industry must cast off its traditional mode of operation and thought and re-invent itself in order to do battle with the New Paradigm. It means tradition and commonly accepted practices in the gold industry must be tossed out the window. They no longer work and the attestation of that fact is the current price of gold. It means that the gold industry must examine each and every catch phrase and slogan that floats around the industry and be highly skeptical of them. I will cite two examples:

Catch phrase #1: there is gold in every different continent of the world, ergo there is no way to control the supply ( Well, that may be true under normal cirumstances...however, with so many international mining companies fighting for their lives today, maybe this abnormal circumstance presents a new opportunity to foment international co-operation ) .

Catch phrase #2: gold companies in North America cannot co-operate because of stringent anti-trust regulations prohibiting such collusion
( In Clinton's New Republican world, all variety of American industries are operating in de facto oligopolistic cartels. The auto industry...the petroleum industry...the TV broadcast industry...more and more consolidation and collusion even despite the anti-trust regs that prohibit such practices. Do you see the government doing anything about this? No, because Clinton is more committed to strengthening oligopolies than any Republican president before him. The major gold producers could
take a front page ad in the N.Y. Times announcing they are all going to a bathhouse together and I feel certain the government would not bat an eye. Why do the gold producers fail to get together? Is there some odd form of homophobia peculiar to the industry? Do some of the producers have such vile BO that nobody can stand to be in one room together? Yet, somehow, such a confab must take place...or else say hello to gold at $40 an ounce within the not too distant future ) .

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:06
D.A. U>(a.wink.and.a.nod) ID#7568:

I think your wink may be soon in the pink. I figure you've got about 18 hours. If you don't score by then, the forces of good will overcome the darkside.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:06
panda U>(D.A.) ID#30116:
That's a lot of bacon! :- ) )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:04
panda U>(Platinum....) ID#30116:
Damn! Is platinum getting cheap or what How short those memories are of less than a year ago.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:04
D.A. U>(loonie) ID#7568:

Believe it or not the Canadian buck is our biggest long position in our currency system. Other than the US dollar it has been the strongest freely traded currency in the world of late. It may decline some more vs. the US dollar but in terms of worldwide purchasing power it is on the rise.

I have a feeling that 'fundamentals' are going to take a back seat to hysteria and official action in the next little bit. The objective of investors at this time should be to preserve capital. The problem with the world is that it is pretty hard to figure out a safe spot at the moment. Pork bellies are looking interesting. If you're wrong you can always eat'em.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 22:02
panda U>(Barney) ID#30116:
Your welcome.... :- )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:55
JTF U>(Australia, Canada and?) ID#57232:
Any other countries with little gold reserves? Brazil? Russia? Well, Russia has been in trouble for some time.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:54
oris U>(@bej) ID#238422:
If vodka of your choice is Stolichnya, so be it.
I was offering you much better stuff, Black-n-White Smirnoff,
made in Russia also...
When is your TU-154 going to take off?.. do I need to arrange for
UPS pick-up right now? By the way, are you paying freight charges?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:51
JTF U>(Gold bottoming?) ID#57232:
Allen ( USA ) : I share your optimism regarding gold. I increased my gold stock position today, so I am up to my ankles in the water. Hope I am ready for the gold bug Tsunami! Too bad RJ didn't say anything about the gold markets before he left for the Mt Everest talk! Anything to add to the list below? Corrections anyone?

Reasons for gold up:

1 ) EURO - Don't need to support the US dollar anymore, because EURO deadline coming up? I think the practical end point for the Euro is around April 98, though I don't have a solid reason why, given the official go live is 1/1/99. Do they have a deadline after which the debt, etc numbers don't matter?

2 ) European central ( EURO ) bank to have gold? I think that was the message, though I'm not sure that's official.

3 ) Gold loans dropping, or at least not going up? SBC,UBS stop gold loans, and merge. ( Must have been working together for some time! Would have loved to be a fly-on-the-wall! )

4 ) Swiss not to sell gold for at least ten years

5 ) Buying frenzy in Dubai== Perception of a bottom?

6 ) Mike Stewarts gold stock McClellan oscillator at a record low

7 ) Food buying Frenzy in Korea -- gold price up 60% in local currency

- perception that they should have had gold saved for emergencies?

Reasons for gold going down:

1 ) dropping or weaking commodity price index

2 ) CB's still selling?

3 ) During a market correction, gold pushed down to discourage flight to safety? If no correction, gold probably not pushed down.

4 ) Deflation in US. Not likely for long, given behavior of money supply, though long lead time likely.

5 ) Europe wants to keep dollar strong -- favorable balance of trade?

Wait till EURO fully launched before letting up?

6 ) Financial crisis? Gold conduit to Central banks in crisis via LBMA?

7 ) Some Central banks wish to buy or loan gold, but trading strategy got away from them? Traders still active, or shorts weakening?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:51
Ted U>(D.A. + The 'Loonie') ID#364147:
Our dollar ( Can. ) ain't lookin too healthy either----any thoughts?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:46
HighRise U>(kiwi (Nasty....IMF going broke...nah! US will cover it.) ID#401460:
IMF looks to replenish resources depleted by Asian crisis.

“Given opposition in the U.S. Congress to additional funding for the IMF, it
remained unclear whether Camdessus would get what he is seeking.
Deputy Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers said Saturday that the IMF
should first focus on getting U.S. approval for a $40 billion bailout fund set
up after the Mexico's currency crisis in 1995. That fund includes a $3.5
billion commitment from the United States.”

Wait a minute! didn’t we loan Mexico $40 to $50 Billion, that was supposedly repaid but not really it was reportedly repaid with a loan to Mexico from the IMF, AND now we find out that we are suppose to fund the IMF’s repayment of the loan we made to Mexico in the first place. Give me a break, this is a Friggen joke.

Nothing more than the same old shell game. The money went to Goldman Sachs, the largest private banker invested in Mexico at the time of the Peso collapse.

Remember that the Deputy Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers and the Secretary of the Treasury are both former Partners in Goldman Sachs.

Goldman Sachs reported record earnings last year - thanks to the American Tax payer.

“Congress deleted the U.S. contribution to the bailout fund from a foreign
aid appropriations bill last month in a dispute over abortion funding. But
Summers and other Treasury officials have said they will take up the issue
with legislators early in 1988.”

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:46
D.A. U>(next.victim?) ID#7568:

The currency monster in SE Asia appears to be changing targets. With Korea apparently on the mend, at least in the short term, the monster is begining to gnaw on Australia. With the Aussie dollar down only 15 - 20% from summer levels it may have a large 'adjustment' coming to mirror its local trading partners. Throw in some rapidly declining metals prices, one of its big export items, and all of a sudden you have a problem.

The Indonesian Rupiah seems headed for zero. Something real nasty must be going on behind the scenes becuase that currency is just relentless in its march. In just the last month it has plunged from around the 3600 level to its current pitiful state of just under 6000. Its price of 2300 which was its 'fixed' price for so long is indeed just a distant memory.

If the boys don't do something pretty dramatic in the smoke filled rooms tomorrow the currency monster is going to run wild. I sincerely hope that a life line is thrown at whatever cost to the taxpayers of the western world. The consequences of inaction are too gruesome to contemplate.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:45
As a Canadian, I am astounded that more Canadians donot recognise the
underlying weakness of our own currency! With all the attention on S.E.
Asia few have considered the fact that we could be next in line. It would
not take much to move us into a high interest rate policy to protect our
currency against the seemingly almighty U.S. buck! You have to ask your
self what did the last hike accomplish and did we start giving it back
today? As we watch gold prices tumble in Asia tonight we must stay totally focussed on the facts and that is paper assetts are about to
collapse and the question of Deflation has already been answered.
To steal a quote from James Davidson; The Music Has Stopped.
This Canuck is buying gold in every form and if nothing else I believe it
will protect me from ending up with the label A FOOL WITH HIS WORTHLESS
PAPER. Have a great night all!!!!!!!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:41
bej U>(Vodka and anything else to tale mind off --------) ID#263133:
Is the Vodka you offer Stolichnaya? The Russians may not know how to play the capitalistic game of 'keep the price up' but they can produce fine Vodka. So, to cut this deal, an ounce for ounce is more than fair. Will send all Platinum to you via Tu-154 transport. Please send Vodka UPS.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:31
oris U>(@bej) ID#238422:

Don't talk to anybody else, I'll take it all..
Will trade for first-class vodka, ounce for ounce, plus
very hard-to-find, very exciting medically approved and
extensively tested professional recommendations on how
to use it for fixing any health problem. Plus 1 free shot
glass and box of #7 1/2 birdshot for 12 gauge, famous brand.

Let me know ASAP and how I can get in touch with you, friend?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:25
Niner U>(I know what you would not do!) ID#388434:

Not to worry, I would never distribute anything harmful. I DO know that you did everything but click the yes button, however! ;- ) You might try it again, and be sure to read the screen before proceeding! Hundreds of us have fallen victim to the little joke, but it does absolutely nothing to your computer, only the ( male ) operator's ego . . .

I am not sure what an ephemeris is. If you would care to, you could email me some sort of example of an analysis based on astrological ephemeris so I could peruse it. ( ) In the meantime, I intend to keep looking for Asimov's book, and will pass along the title if/when I find it.

BTW, $280 has been offering good resistance - I am starting to think we'll never see sub-$200 this go-around - but I've been wrong before.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:19
oris U>(@Karlito99/Reg.your post of 17:58 - (or 17:54?)) ID#238422:

Dear Karlito,

Your post is fine, but there is no logic in it...

You take today's price of silver, around $6/oz, 16:1 ratio
to figure gold price, and then you go 10 years in the future
with TODAY's price of silver to figure out the FUTURE price of gold.

If your statement that buying triggers buying is correct, and silver
looks to be in up trend today, then logically in 10 years the
price of silver will be much, much higher, maybe at least $100?

Then the price of gold should be $1600/oz, may be less, but not
$100/oz, because silver is going up, means people will continue
to buy, according to your logic..

You got to specify the future price of silver first...

Patiently expecting potential correction of your estimate of
gold price, not this year or next year, but at least in 3 years
and even better in 10 years..

Best regards

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:15
WDL U>(@markets) ID#24095:
February gold sliding tonight...down to 285.1

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:12
bej U>(Hopeless situation) ID#263133:
I have platinum. Will trade for Beanie Babies, plus provide the cash differential. Wonderful Platinum - can be used for paving driveways, paperweight, etc. A multitude of uses and only limited by your own craetivity. Trade now before it becomes as useless as Gold.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:10
APH U>(Gold and S&P) ID#25588:
If you're in the Feb. Gold at prices under $ 285.00 ( 12\09 01:05 ) keep your stop under last
Monday's lows at 283.3, you may want to use a close only stop in case of an intra day test
of the 283 area. Closes above these levels would indicate a push higher: 288.1 today's
high, 293 top of the downward channel line, 296.5 Gann line from contract highs,
305 another Gann line, 327 Gann line drawn along the previous highs of the last year.
These numbers change almost daily so stay tuned. March SnP, sell tomorrow at 982.00
with a stop at 985.00. If the price is not hit by 10 a.m. CST or if the A/D is better then
1.5/1.0 as the price is approached cancel the order.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:10
MoReGoLd U>(@``Whatever you buy now, you will make a profit soon. Gold is an expensive metal to extract) ID#348129:
A must read ( or re-read ) . EMU may yet surprise everyone by holding a significant Gold reserve. They surely cannot ignore the Asian and Latin American currency turmoil.
Ask yourself this, when was the last time the Swiss franc ( 40% Gold backed ) attacked by currency speculators ?

Monday December 15, 10:10 am Eastern Time

World Gold Council sees stronger prices soon

By Miral Fahmy

CAIRO, Dec 15 ( Reuters ) - The World Gold Council ( WGC ) said on Monday the recent slump in gold prices was petering out and that positive comments by central banks could help buoy the precious metal from its lowest level in 18 years.

``The market is reacting on rumours but the fundamentals are good,'' Rolf Schneebeli, WGC chief executive for the Middle East and Indian subcontinent, told Reuters. The WGS groups most gold producers and monitors demand in countries which account for 80 percent of global consumption of the metal.

``Gold prices are overshooting and I expect we are extremely close to the bottom. It may fall a dollar or two more,'' Schneebeli said.

Gold has been sliding for months and was fixed on Friday at $283 an ounce, its lowest level since August 1979. Prices remained unfazed by positive indicators last week.

These included Swiss National Bank ( SNBZn.S ) remarks pointing to phased sales of reserve gold should the sales plan get voter approval. A report which recommended the bank sell part of its hefty holdings had depressed the market earlier.

Other bullish signals were French central bank support for gold in the planned European Central Bank and reports on healthy demand and mine closures.

Traders have attributed the slippage to a strong U.S. dollar and central banks selling their holdings but the WGS said speculators were firmly to blame.

Moaz Barakat, Middle East and India finance, administration and planning manager, said there was no real bullion changing hands, just ``paper gold.'' ``It's a real speculators' market, they are making their money by the price fluctuations. They are guiding the market with rumours,'' he added.

Talk that several European central banks were selling part of their hefty reserves had depressed the market as well as actual sales by the Australian and Argentine central banks earlier this year.

Barakat dismissed both sales as negligible when compared to the approximately 1,000 tonne a year gap between physical demand and production of the metal.

``It's only a few hundred tonnes. There's all this talk of selling but we haven't seen anything. It's just like someone threatening to beat you up and not doing it,'' he said.

The WGC executives said prices would benefit from a pep talk by a central bank and more transparency in dealings which would help clear up the rumours and display actual sales.

``The situation in the gold mines is traumatic. Everyone is cutting back production and no one is making any futures contracts. All exploration work has stopped,'' Schneebeli said.

``The major factor is sentiment. In the short term, one good statement from a central bank would help. Transparency would also be beneficial,'' he added.

Schneebeli said current prices were a godsend for gold buyers and forecast prices would bounce back up as demand was on the upswing. He saw most demand for 1998 coming from southeast Asian countries whose economies have been battered by turmoil in their stock and money markets.

``Whatever you buy now, you will make a profit soon. Gold is an expensive metal to extract and the natural trend is up. We see the southeast Asian countries making a comeback. After what happened, they will change their minds about long term investments,'' he said.

On Monday, gold traded quietly on international markets and bullion traders did not expect prices to slip beyond $281.50 ahead of forthcoming holidays.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:07
kiwi U>(Nasty....IMF going broke....PAPER DEBT INFERNO BEGINS) ID#194311:
IMF pleads for extra cash, Germany skeptical

WASHINGTON, Dec 15 ( Reuters ) - The International Monetary
Fund appealed for extra cash on Monday as Asia's financial
crisis began to bite, but Germany said there was no point in
discussing the issue until Washington made its position clear.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:06
Donald__A U>(More from Steve Kaplan) ID#26793:
The trend toward the worldwide liberalization of gold imports and exports continued today
with word from Egypt that they have lowered their import taxes from 55% to 10% on
manufactured gold, and from 20% to 1% on gold ingots. These taxes are expected to drop
further next year. Demand for gold in Egypt currently totals about 80 to 100 tonnes per

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:04
Donald__A U>(From the Steve Kaplan site) ID#26793:
In the belief that the gold price fall has essentially run its course, Kinross Gold of Canada
announced that it had repurchased 200,400 ounces of gold in December that it had
previously sold forward, netting a profit of $22.5 million. This represents the closing of
about 5/8 of Kinross' total hedged position.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 21:02
Ted U>(Time for some butt-kickin) ID#364147:
Go Broncos!! and team gold~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:57
Allen(USA) U>(a tight trading range would be nice for a change) ID#255190:
.. as has been said funds are tiddying up. CB's are finishing their business ( think Euro ) . The man on the street is buying, and that buying is spreading around the world as price for those with US$ and crisis for those who live in the east drive buyers to the market. A nice little change in India's tariffs at New Years ( can you spell P-E-N-T-U-P-D-E-M-A-N-D? ) . Japan buyng is making the news now. Gold bounce off of the 2-8-2 settling in 2-8-3 to 2-8-6 range.

Have we a gold bottom consolidation in process?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:57
oris U>(@Studio.R.) ID#238422:
Yup, it's Monday, please accept correction:


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:57
Donald__A U>(Scroll down to Waigel meeting (also interesting history in bell story)) ID#26793:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:52
oris U>(@Studio.R./Your post of 18:24) ID#238422:

Dear Studio.R,

Who is this stupid one - who bought this gold?

There are only too potential candidates I can see for now:

1. Marxist Socialist son of a gun, absolutely stupid, of course,
in order to establish Marxist Socialist Totaliterian Control
all over the world or

2. Not really stupid, but still with intention to establish
control all over the world - remember what ANOTHER said?

Don't panic, it's only Monday...

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:51
JTF U>(Isaac Asimov on Astrology! Never would have guessed!) ID#57232:
Niner: Your 20:03. Interesting point you made about Astrology. Modern Astrology uses an Ephemeris -- hopefully as accurate as the one I have, based on Astromical formulas. However, your point is well taken regarding all the house ,etc stuff that goes in one ear, and out the other as far as I am concerned.

My point is that the vast majority of astrological knowledge has been handed down through generations, when the knowledge of the heavens was far less accurate than it is now -- hence much of the historical stuff is fraught with inaccuracies -- or worse. That is why I'm trying to go back to the raw data as a Physicist would say. That is - by logging major historical events on the earth -- major changes in the weather, El Nino's historical comodity, market behavior,etc. All one needs to do is compare these to an Astronomical ephemeris and see if there are correlations. I have already found one with certain planets, the solar tides, sunspots, and the solar constant, hence the weather correlation, though weak. There may be others.

By the way what was in that little secret weapon you posted? Really did a number on my computer! Do I need to check my computer for anything?

I'm amazed that Mike Sheller can come up with anything, and yet he does!

Mike - someday I hope you will tell me how you can make sense out of all this -- you will save me and others alot of work if you do.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:49
Allen(USA) U>(HepMeMoney @ poeticly waxing the golden surf board) ID#255190:
..awaiting the tsunami. Are you long the physical Ag/Au? You've got to be in the water to ride this baby in, no?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:47
a.j. U>(Karlito:CB reserves) ID#256201:
Could you point mt in the direction of the source for your statement that the CBs have sold ONLY 1.5% of their reserves?
If you will do that, It may dissuade me from ever buying another share of stock or another coin or ingot. TIA

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:46
Donald__A U>(Asia should raise wages so its citizens can afford the goods they produce) ID#26793:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:45
Ted U>(@ CherOkee's Peace Pipe) ID#364147:
Don't Bogart the damn thing---pass it here dude~~~~~~~~~~

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:43
cherokee__A U>(@-----another-way-----------) ID#344308:
jtf--lgb--ph---rj---mike sheller---

there is another solution!!!

you must be able to take the high ground....

and keep the high gound..........................

here we go.............................................

peace pipe to lips, you know what to do....billy-did..............

NOW, what do you 'see'-----grasshopper?

!; ) --out-with-the-chicken-bones&comets--

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:33
chas U>(mining) ID#339450:
a.j. fi yoooo in the hole. hope your dues paid off. i'm working a prospect that's amphibolite with um in thr middle. not a hair of ag, butgold and some pt in amphibolte and pt group in um. not many hardrock men around anymore. goodluck.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:28
Early Riser U>(Platinum Free Fall) ID#228275:
Just curious - isn't platinum at a new multi-year low?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:22
Donald__A U>(@Dwayne: This should do it for you) ID#26793:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:20
Haggis__A U>(farfel.....Peter Munk) ID#398105:

G'Day from Kalgoorlie.

The issues that you raise many have merits, but you appear to forget that GOLD DEMAND in 1997 is up 12% as reported by the World Gold Council. It appears the real problem is that caused by Futures and Derivative dealings in gold. There is a vacuum of at least 8 000 tonnes of gold ( three years world production ) which at some time has to be filled, hopefully soon. You cannot oversupply gold to the market.

An issue for consideration is wheither or not those dealing in derivatives have any form of self-regulating code of practice from within the derivatives market, which requires a degree of sobriety and self control among creators and the users of over the counter products. Looking at the way the gold price has been stamped down, it would appear the any code of practice does not exist. You must remember the NYMEX and COMEX is a Club, you have to invited to join the party.

Aye, Haggis

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:19
HepMeMoney_Hmm U>( Gold.Will It Hold?) ID#402251:

Or will it fold,like RJ's told,those of old,

Will it beam,and will it seem,it was all just a dream.

Or a nightmare,or a night out,or a break in the action,

To give some Anothers,a piece of the action.

Opportunity knocks,but so seldom,they say,

Is gold's present value,not long for the day?

Some people are buying,many people are talking,

Are you sure it's the gold in Asia there hawking/

Or T-Bills and paper,and things thatll see you later ,

As the turning point nears,for those with the fears.

On Gold!On Silver!On Donner!On Blitzen!

The masses are waiting,for a bottom,then a fixin.

When the direction is found,and if the hedges unwound,

No longer will they say put old yeller in the ground .


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:18
Donald__A U>(HSBC Brazil Insurance unit net worth drops 63%) ID#26793:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:17
Producer U>(If I may) ID#226355:
LGB: I do not think that Haggis is implying that Pegasus' mistake was so much that they did not anticipate a lower price of gold, but that the operation is failing do to poor evaluaton and unanticipated problems. They goofed;it happens. Given the complexity of starting one of these operations it is amazing that it does not happen more often.
Haggis: You are 100% correct about reserve owners optimism on the value of what they own. I guess I was whining a little, my apologies

G'Day from Fairbanks

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:14
ROR U>(Lease rate) ID#35767:
It is the sustaining at these high lease rate levels without release of supply which IMHO is telling. This means those in the KNOW know their is a real shortage. If there was not the Squeezers would release to get the high rate. I tend to to think there REALLY is not enough of the stuff for the lease rate to remain this high after this big rally. At 15 or 20 bucks an ounce they may let go ..if they can.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:12
Early Riser U>(RJ re Sheller) ID#228275:

Re Everest. You can read the story in Into Thin Air. Good book.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:11
Dwayne__A U>(Japan Market) ID#270230:
The Japaneese market seems to be turning down

Generally, one can make a fairly accurate guess at the wee hours of the DJIA opening by studying the S&P Futures. Or have an idea of a Stock moving Up or Down by the Bid & Ask statistics. My question is this: Do they keep such data for Spot Bullion ( Gold ) anywhere ?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:08
Donald__A U>(Analysis of Korean banking situation) ID#26793:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:08
Niner U>(Neat, small program) ID#388434:
I meant to include this in my last post - I put this up before, late one evening, don't think too many saw it.


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:08
ROR U>(Silver) ID#35767:
When we see the high in this commodity we will look back and say it was the investment of a lifetime. If the Wall ST PM analysts like it IT can only mean one thing....real shortage.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:03
prisbrian U>(Reply to vronsky) ID#171240:
The company you are referring to wouldn't happen to be Apex Silver would it? ( Rothschild, Soros )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 20:03
Niner U>(to JTF & LGB on astrology) ID#388434:
JTF, LGB - Isaac Asimov devoted a chapter in one of his popular physics texts to the subject of astrology. I could not locate this book tonite so as to supply direct quotes, but I do remember a couple of points he made that I shall not forget. I will attempt to relate a point or two from memory, but my dates are necessarily approximate.

When astrology was founded a millenia or two ago, the founders were not at all versed in astronomy. They assumed the night sky to be unchanging, save for the observed effects of earth's rotation, and its rotation about the sun. They totally overlooked the precession of the earth about the sun. Consequently, even the simple labels they applied to portions of the sky ( Libra, Capricorn, etc. ) are only grossly correct for 1/12th of the time every few hundred years. At the time Asimov's book was wriiten ( as I remember ) , astrologers were about 6 months out-of sync with astronomers. This would mean that a Sagitarius would in actuality be a Taurus! At some point in time the sky was as they described, but each passing day would add an error, until at some future time the sky was 180 degrees from where they say it should be. The errors continue to accumulate, until an equal time period later they were right back where they started.

One of the basic building blocks of their entire construct was based on ignorance of astronomy. What's worse is that it continues unabated to this day, promulgating the same erroneous analysis of the heavens, and their effects on this planet. Not only does the rock in front of your mailbox provide more graviational effects than a line-up of the planets, astrology has no idea where the planets are to begin with! It's an effect similar to when congress tried to legislate the value of PI to 3.00, so as to make calculations easier . . .



Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:59
Donald__A U>(Asian car prices could tumble in 1998) ID#26793:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:58
vronsky U>(Lagrimas de la Luna -- Tears of the Moon (Accolades & Kudos for goldbug)) ID#427357:
The Peruvian Incas called Silver Lagrimas de la Luna. Well, since August this year they have been tears of JOY, as Silver Futures are UP 23% since the DOW high in mid-August, all while the shiny yellow continued to dribble downwards. Just today, Silver Futures closed UP 12.5 cents ( +2.4% ) . And while the XAU relentlessly ground downwards, silver stocks have indeed been shinny examples of appreciation.

Rothschilds, Soros & Sheller CANNOT BE WRONG

We have all recently learned the Rothschilds & Soros have been covertly buying up silver properties via a company going public very soon. And today our own RJ reiterates his bullish outlook for the ‘Poor Man’s Gold’ -- SILVER. However, we must should due reverence to Claude Cormier, who first shared his considerable insights with us about silver in his mid-year “Goldbug’s Weekly Comment.”

In Cormier’s report “Silver stocks, there ain't too many!” -posted at GOLD-EAGLE, he recommended six silver stocks with outstanding potential - albeit within a precious metals bear market. Let’s capsulate here how these stocks have performed since their mid-year lows:

Pan American Silver ( PAA ) ........UP 53%
Silver Standard ( SSO ) ...............UP 57%
International Avino ( ASM ) ........UP 50%
First Silver Reserve ( FSR ) ..........UP 86%
United Keno Hills ( UKH ) ..........UP 11%
Clifton Mining ( CFB ) ................Down 4%

That’s an average 42% Silver portfolio gain during the last five months - while gold have been miserably dribbling downwards!!

KUDOS & ACCOLADES for an Analyst Par Excellence: Claude Cormier

Please be aware that if you CLICK on the silver stock symbol in his report “Silver stocks, there ain't too many!” - the current daily price chart pops up.

You may read his entire mid-year SILVER FORECAST at:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:58
RJ U>(..... How high is up? .....) ID#411259:


The last not so much directed at you, but inspired by you, I just think Sheller is a class act and, unlike many here, doesn't try to force his opinions on others. I am just as wary as you are of astrology.

I gotta' go. I'm going to spend an evening with Ed Viesturs, who was deputy team leader of the IMAX Mt. Everest expedition of May, 1996. This was during the biggest one day tragedy ever to occur on the mountain when a freak storm blew in and killed eight climbers trapped near the summit. This guy has summited Everest FOUR times, three without the use of supplemental oxygen. This promises to be a very interesting evening. Later……..

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:54
LGB U>(@ Haggis re Pegasus) ID#269409:
Are you saying that Pegasus management should have predicted the demise in the price of Gold and the CB sales?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:53
Haggis__A U>( evaluations) ID#398105:

G'Day from Kalgoorlie.

As a general rule of thumb, folk with gold tenements ALWAYS are eternal optimists and tend not to look at the current actual market value. To me, there are two schools - speculators in exploration who wish to make cash on the stock price and do not wish to produce metal, and secondly those who actually wish to produce metal. In the short and long term, it is the second group who will always win.

Aye, Haggis

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:50
Donald__A U>(ASEAN Conference says US, Japan & Europe must face up to the global dilemma) ID#26793:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:45
LGB U>(@ RJ) ID#269409:
I feel duly chastised, however, and particularly if Sheller's more conventional analysis methodologies have proven to be prodcutive, however, my comments were directed more toward the philosophical issue of Astrolgy itself, and also what I believe to be a misdirected accolade that might better have gone to the GoldBug site Guru's who made this call in advance, rather than after the fact.

Also, as to being respectful toward all beliefs, you must be careful with that one. Sounds very tolerant in this day of rampant existentialism, but certain absolutes do yet exists. You wouldn't want to respect the philosophical beliefs of a Nitzche for example.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:43
Barney U>(@Panda - trying to cut and paste - TOO!) ID#260194:
To paste a text object, simply highlight the area by holding down the left mouse button and dragging the
pointer over the desired area. Once the area is highlighted, release the left mouse button and press [ctrl c].

When you go to the Add a Comment, area, place the pointer in the text box and press [ctrl v]. The text
will be pasted in the area.

In general, posting a link to the site is the preferred method. To do this, repeat the above procedure,
except in the 'location' box at the top of your screen. You know that you did it 'right' when your post
contains the highlighted link.

I think it worked - THANK YOU

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:42
A.Goose U>() ID#20136:
Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:52
arden ( comex data ) ID#201238:

How are these stacking up witht he december delieveries.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:42
ROR U>(Paper) ID#35767:
Lookin weaker. Will they get a narrow santa claus rally. The more they try to make it sound ok the more they are starting to sound like panic!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:36
Pedro U>(metaphysics) ID#224151:
Speaking of same Biography of Edgar Cayce on A @ E tonite.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:34
RJ U>(..... Everybody .....) ID#411259:

Anybody who has read Mike Sheller's posts would realize that astrology is but one arrow in his quiver. I have found Sheller's technical analysis ( using well respected traditional methods ) to be very sound time and again.

I have no faith in astrology and would not debate the point in any case. A belief, strongly held, will not succumb to words. I would also choose not to deride these beliefs, trusting that the charlatans will expose themselves, and the rest can do me no harm.

I have a short list of must reads on this site; people who, whenever they post, I will always stop to read. Mike Sheller has always been on that list. I have always found he has something to say, which is the highest form of praise I can think of for a site such as this. Additionally, he has offered a voice of calm and reason when the rest of us were biting and scratching. He has always comported himself a gentleman and is one of the finest members of this group. We can learn the high road well from our friend, and would be proud to call him thus.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:34
Gusto Oro U>(Arden, 18:52) ID#377235:
I've been keeping an eye out for a cheap copper/silver mine myself but haven't run across any at the garage sales.

Hey, Indonesia is freefalling in the last week. What gives? Finland has been mauled too--have the Russians invaded again?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:33
panda U>(Avalon) ID#30116:
To paste a text object, simply highlight the area by holding down the left mouse button and dragging the pointer over the desired area. Once the area is highlighted, release the left mouse button and press [ctrl c].

When you go to the Add a Comment, area, place the pointer in the text box and press [ctrl v]. The text will be pasted in the area.

In general, posting a link to the site is the preferred method. To do this, repeat the above procedure, except in the 'location' box at the top of your screen. You know that you did it 'right' when your post contains the highlighted link.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:31
Haggis__A U>(farfel.....your Pegasus considerations) ID#398105:

G'Day from Kalgoorlie,

To put the record straight, Pegasus did not say Screw you to the Australian Government. The issue is that BAD corporate and mine planning have caused their demise, and the reality is that they are AT RISK of DEFAULT on US$353 million. The Mt Todd feasibility vs actual production did not balance, with 0.2 g/t of gold down on production, copper in the circuit causing excess cyanide consumption, power up 20%, and recoveries the order of 80% even with the four stage crushing circuit. The bottom line, too many eggs in the Mt Todd basket. They blew it.......

Aye, Haggis

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:10
JTF U>(Comex Gold Reserves) ID#57232:
Arden, Realistic: How do these relate to historical reserves? Ten year low, etc? Any evidence for gold liquidity shortage?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:07
JTF U>(Metaphysics? no -- Physics) ID#57232:
LGB: Now we are beginning to say similar things. However, I do not consider untestable models because they do no tell me anything about the universe. The whole idea behind physics or the physical sciences is the idea of coming up with testable hypotheses. I would consider setting up a gold or silver trading model as testable ( physcial ) and not metaphysical. What I like about investors/traders/etc is that they will try anything, as long as it works! That is not metaphysics, just common sense! In fact more common sense than the average classically trained physicist, who insists that everything is understood in term of his/her model of the universe. However, a good physicist ( or gold trader ) knows that all that matters is what works.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 19:00
LGB U>(PH ) ID#269409:
You may have misunderstood my point. I'm not at all upbraiding Voronsky or his site, quite the contrary, I'm voicing my appreciation that he has some talented analysts who predicted Silver's current market rise, well in advance of it's occuring, and for very sound and rational reasons.

My objection was to pushing Sheller's after the fact Silver market call as some kind of great genious market call, when it's such a transparent tactic of Psychics and Astrologers to do this very thing on an ongoing basis. ( Whether Sheller has done so or not, being irrelevant here, my complaint is that crediting Sheller, robs the analysts on Voronsky's site who ACTUALLY predicted this market move BEFORE it started )

What if the DOW started dropping by 2000 points in the next few weeks and then I started posting predictions that a bear market is imminent based on my bone casting readings? When it falls further, did I then make a brilliant market call I think that case I'd have to say that PUETZ would be the one who made the call...and for entirely different reasons. It would lend ZERO cerdibility to eitehr ME or to Bone casting as a predicitve market tool!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:53
Realistic U>(Comex inventory) ID#410194:
Today's Comex inventory data released after the day session trading:

Gold: Fell by 159 ounces to 674,735

Silver: Fell by 607,756 ounces to 122,421,949 ( This is a new 13-year low )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:53
PH in LA U>(LGB's predictions) ID#225408:
In spite of his often well-thought-out comments and obviously intellectually valient positions LGB seems to have dropped the ball upon entering the realm of market predictions, upbraiding Vronsky's silver expert.

Does he really think his silver calls two years in advance were more useful and/or interesting than Vronsky's one month late silver call? Many recognized traders try not to fall into the bottom ( or top ) picking trap for very good reason. Most state that the bottom ( or top ) cannot be called until after the fact for obvious reasons. ie. no bottom or top is in until a contrary direction has been established.

Which by no means casts doubt on the underlying thinking behind all these predictions. We all love the discussions upon which they are based. That is why we are here...not for giving ( or denying ) credit for predictions for purely egotistical gratification.

Please LGB, keep your comments coming, I for one love them. But don't expect us to get very excited by the market calls themselves...just the reasons and thinking behind them, which Vronsky's site does very well.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:52
arden U>(comex data) ID#201238:

ok, sorry I'm late. I was closing the purchase of a gold mine.

COMEX Metal Warehouse Statistics for Dec. 15

Gold 674,735 - 159 troy ounces
Silver 122,421,949 - 607,756 troy ounces
Copper 85,848 + 314 short tons

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:52
LGB U>(@ JTF...Metaphysics & an open mind) ID#269409:
JTF, I think we're on the same page but I havn't expressed myself clearly enough. being open minded is important, I'm not in any way disbelieveing or denigrating the fact that the Universe contains secrets unkown by our puny understanding if it.

Metaphysics and untestable beliefs however, are faith based, that is, whether you believe that God created the Universe, or the Big Bang just happened it into exisistance, either belief requires faith since we were not here to observe the event, and our ability to measure the evidence is so limited. The scientific thesis are constantly being called into question by Hubble telescope observations for example which show that all kinds of gross violations exist to the previously held tenets re age of universe, Big bang theory, etc. However, whether you believe in Big bbang or creation by fiat, faith is involved.

Now when it comes to scientifically TESTABLE theories, we have a whole different ball game. It's not difficult to set up a scientific test to see for example, whether ciggarette smoking is good for your health ( as was postulated at one time in our past ) When tobacco complany executives tell us it's a OK, is their opnion as valid as a team of Doctors and scientists who have done hundreds of studies and say otherwise? NO, NOPE, and NO WAY!

The same concept applies to ALL scientifically testable beliefs, Once we discard our reason, even in areas beyond our expertise, we move back into the dark ages of the demon haunted world that Dr. Carl Sagan spoke of so derisively ( and rightly so )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:51
JTF U>(IMF broke) ID#57232:
Vronsky: re your 17:35. I think we are watching the implosion of a country that has debt far in excess of the 40billion US the IMF has available. At least this is better than the IMF somehow extracting cash from the members, and pouring it down a bottomless pit. The problem now is how to best help S. Korea in other ways -- looks very bad. Are we talking about major risk of famine? It's a real possibility. I don't know how close to the land the S Koreans are -- anymore. Are we talking about a situation where all the production of S Korea goes idle? Perhaps someone will come up with an idea soon -- looks like other countries may need the same kind of help. I guess I need to remind myself that this is not as bad as a war, because there is no mass death and human misery like a war, and the physical plant is still there. Just the money is missing. Just think, if the average South Korean had some gold, they could be back on their feet fairly soon. I hope that is a lesson to the rest of the world, so that the same mistakes do not keep getting repeated over and over. Someone famous once said that those who fail to learn the lessons of history learn to repeat it. We are seeing direct proof of the value of gold -- for those who wish to see.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:43
Spock U>(Selling the IMF Gold) ID#210114:
The article Re: IMF suggests that maybe they will sell gold to cover their cash shortfall. Some sales have already been propsed for this year have they not

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:38
JTF U>(IMHO) ID#57232:
LGB: Humility, as I posted to you months ago - is something worth achieving. IMHO, not IMNHO.

Vronsky has made major contributions to this site -- you do not have to agree with everything that is said by anyone -- I don't. I would respectfully respond if one of my Kitcoites were told to go to a witch doctor -- but I would still respect the difference of opinion.

Don't assume that you can learn nothing from people who have ideas that are very different from yours. You will be the loser, not they.

To be honest, I am still very frustrated with astrology, as I can quantify little of it, except the planet/solartide/sunspot/earth weather connection. The market Fibonacci series Elliot Wave stuff is somehow tied to this. That's not new, as I think WDGann knew about some of it, and kept it secret all these years. I have not come accross the Astronomical/Human link yet, though I am convinced it exists. But -- I do know the fundamentals behind it have some truth under those centuries of human alteration -- much like how the Christian religion has changed since Christ walked the earth. One could say this about any religion. But -- I know that all the major religions on this earth have value, just as the major Astologies do. Mike Sheller is good at what he does, and if you listen carefully, he is humble -- he does admit he's wrong. And -- I don't understand most of what he says! I'm sure he says the same of me. However, I still listen to Mike Sheller because I know he knows something I don't know, and I think the feeling is mutual. I'm hoping that someday I will come accross the key data that will allow me to quantify the essence of astrology -- whatever it is will be much simpler than what it is now. My motivation is that I find the secret to intrastellar travel in a new physical principle. You see, I know from other sources of data that there is something major missing in our current understanding of quantum mechanics, and gravity. Something of great significance. I know I will not be the next Einstein to present this to the world -- I just want to make sure that someone does, and that humans have at least a fighting chace to travel to the stars. Think about what you may be missing. You will be a better person and a better gold investor if you do.


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:37
Avalon U>(@ LGB, Thanks) ID#254269:

Thanks, LGB. I thought it was an aussie company and could not find
any reference to it on The Privateer's hom epage.
BTW, could you explain to a computer neophyte ( me ) how you can
post the whole press article in your post to Kitco.
Again, thanks in advance ( and is there some computer shorthand for
thanks in advance ( TIA, maybe ? )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:35
Producer U>(farfel:Talking to me just like Momma used to....) ID#226355:
The reason I go to a bank is that they have money ( albeit paper ) and they give it to people who promise to pay it back. I have never had a project turned down, a track record counts. I have no hard facts but if you take all the production from us little guys around the world we are a drop in the bucket compared to even one major. Clearly the small producers have no bearing on the POG vs. production.
Read very carefully now: cartels only work when you can control both the supply and the production of an item. Gold is far to wide spread worldwide to have this happen, in the ground, CB's vaults,under your mattress etc. to ever achieve the kind of control you are posing. Consolidation will only last as long as the price remains low, producers will respond with amazing speed to any large increase in price. You would be better served by organizing everyone into a cartel currently long in gold future contracts to start taking delivery, then watch the short covering happen. Trying to control the supply of something commonly available is just not possible. Only a demand increase will have a large effect onthe POG. As to Siberia, I am basically there, would you care for some snow. I have a bunch, and for you I would arrange a good price.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:28
LGB U>(@ Avalon re Pegasus) ID#269409:
Thursday December 11, 7:37 pm Eastern Time

Company Press Release

Pegasus Gold Australia Files for Voluntary Administration in Australia

SPOKANE, Wash.-- ( BUSINESS WIRE ) --Dec. 11, 1997--Pegasus Gold Inc. ( PGU - AMEX, TSE, ME ) ( the ``Company'' ) announced its
wholly owned subsidiary Pegasus Gold Australia Pty Ltd has voluntarily appointed Administrators of that company in Australia.

The Administrators are Peter Geroff and Gregory Moloney of Ferrier Hodgson of Brisbane. The firm specializes in insolvencies.

The appointment of Administrators follows the decision to suspend operations at Pegasus Gold Australia's Mt. Todd gold mine, located near
Katherine in the Northern Territory of Australia, and place the mine on care and maintenance effective November 15, 1997. Pegasus Gold
Inc. has concluded that it is not in the best interests of all stakeholders to continue to fund significant operating losses of its Australian
subsidiary. By suspending operations at Mt. Todd, along with the appointment of Administrators, the Company is endeavoring to protect both
the Mt. Todd assets and the funds advanced by the Company to Pegasus Gold Australia, pending the determination of restructuring proposals.

The Administrators have advised that under Australian law they are required to provide Pegasus Gold Australia's creditors with a report
about its business, property, affairs and financial circumstances as well as their recommended course of action.

Peter Geroff, one of the Administrators, and a partner in the specialist insolvency firm of Ferrier Hodgson said ``the intention of the
Administrators while performing a review of the whole of Pegasus Gold Australia operations, is to continue to keep all stakeholders fully
informed, including the current employees of the Pegasus Gold Australia as well as the Jawoyn people ( the traditional Aboriginal owners of
the land upon which the Mt. Todd Mine is situated ) with whom the Company has always had an excellent relationship. After that review,''
Geroff continued, ``the Administrators will discuss proposals with creditors of Pegasus Gold Australia, and liaise with Pegasus Gold Inc. and
its banking group.''

Statements in this release which are not historical data are forward looking and involve a number of risks and uncertainties, including but not
limited to the price of gold and other commodities and currencies, production, construction and permitting or regulatory delays, reserve
estimation of tonnage, grade and metallurgical recoveries, exploration success and reserve growth, litigation, capital costs, and other risks that
are detailed in the Company's SEC filings.

Pegasus Gold Australia Pty Ltd is a wholly owned subsidiary of Pegasus Gold Inc., an international gold mining company headquartered in
Spokane, Washington. Pegasus, a Canadian company by incorporation, currently produces about 500,000 ounces of gold from operations in
North America as well as Australia. The Company carries out exploration internationally through offices located in Mendoza, Argentina;
Kalgoorlie, Australia; Itaituba, Brazil; Santiago, Chile; and Panama City, Panama. The common shares of Pegasus are traded under the symbol
PGU on the American, Toronto and Montreal stock exchanges. Options on the Company's common shares are traded on the Chicago Board
Options Exchange and the Montreal Exchange.


Pegasus Gold Inc.
John W. Pearson, 509/624-4653

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:24
Who was the brainless, financial failure-type that bought 160 tons of gold from the Argentines? Or was it siphoned off to an inordinate lot of financial failure-types like us? Hell, there must be 160 of us...I'm still workin' on my first ton...I'm not carrying my weight ( in gold ) .

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:05
vronsky U>(ASIA BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARDSPOT (December 15, 1997)) ID#427357:
The ORACLE of the Orient long absent from our website has returned with a vengeance in his scathing rebuttal of Central Bank spewing that “gold is dead,” that “gold is no longer a hedge against economic and currency chaos,” etc. etc. His succinct and extremely well-documented opinion concludes that Central Bank braying is “RUBBISH, RUBBISH AND MORE RUBBISH.”

The ORACLE proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the only defense southeast Asians had... AND WILL HAVE - against the on-going currency chaos, stock market turmoil and the region’s crumbling bank system is to invest in GOLD. The staunchest and most fanatical anti-GOLDBUGS are obliged to concede to the irrefutable evidence that GOLD is the ONLY SAFE HARBOR vis-à-vis the looming and devastating Domino Effect engulfing the area:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 18:01
STUDIO.R U>(@LGB) ID#93236:
Sorry, in reference to your 17:30, forgot to specify.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:59
panda U>(Ted) ID#30116:
Buying food with a credit/debit card strikes me as bizarrrrro, but then again, what do I know? As an aside, I caught part of a promo for the evening news. The story? What's a good buy for Christmas? Gold maybe what you're looking for. May be there is hope after all. I mean, if it's on the six o'clock news.... :- ) )


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:58
Karlito99__A U>(LGB: Gold $100) ID#78116:
First of all, this is a long range forecast. It may take 10 years or more to get down to this level, it could happen faster but it certainly won't happen tomorrow or even next year.

The central banks have sold around 1.5% of their gold stash this year and sent the price down over $100 an ounce in so doing. They still have a lot of dry powder left to send it lower. What often happens in markets is that they overshoot in both directions. Just as buying leads to more buying on the upside, selling reinforces itself going down.

A continued drop in the dollar price of gold will result in more and more investors and more importantly, more central banks giving up on the metal as a store of value. The general demonetarization of gold will return it to its long run relationship to silver or about 16 to 1. With a $6 price of silver, that gives us roughly a $100 price for gold. We won't have to sell off Ft. Knox to get $100 gold. Gold investors will do it for us.

At the same time, much of the surge in gold consumption in the US represents a fashion trend. No fashion trend lasts forever. This one has had a pretty good run and is late in its lifecycle. As gold as a fashion accessory fades, so too will some of the imbalance between production and consumption.

As for production costs what we have seen in the production of everything is that these costs go down over time as new innovations reduce costs and improve efficiency. Yes, the marginal cost of gold production is $250 today, but 10 years from now it will be much lower. The continued fall in the price of gold will force existing producers to search for new efficiencies just to stay in business.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:57
STUDIO.R U>(@LGB) ID#93236:
A good post. Have you any physical gold yet?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:56
JTF U>(Possible turnaround in Gold?) ID#57232:
Old Gold: I hope you didn't increase your gold stock holdings today because of me. In terms of total assets, my % in gold stocks is about the same as yours. However, I don't want to deplete my cupboard of liquid assets before the real gold rally comes. I don't think that Allen ( USA ) 's scenario ( interesting though it is ) is very likely that the dollar will follow the footsteps of the SEAsian countries in the same time scale, with gold going exponential or parabolic. I think a gradual rise, or a short-term gold rally is more likely - for now. The gold bear might reemerge briefly before it fades.

What really worries me is that the powers that be are still locked in the save the paper mode, and might throw more gold out with the baby. The Central banks still have some of that precious to waste.

Pretty clear, isn't it that the IMF is broke, and that South Korea will soon have a negative stock index, if it could. Glad we don't live in S Korea. Think of all those people in SE Asia who are now saying to themselves that they should have bought gold, but it is now too late. But --- this news will probably not sink in to the average American -- however, others such as Europeans will be more likely to buy gold. Enough to tip the scales to convert the gold bear to a bull? -- perhaps!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:53
Avalon U>(Pegasus, where are you ?) ID#254269:
I've noticed a couple of comments here about Pegasus closing down
it's mines but have not been able to find the main article about this.
Is Pegasus an aussie company and what were the circyumstances re the shutdowns ? Thanks in advance..

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:50
farfel U>(Gold Mining Companies aka Virgins in a Whorehouse...) ID#28585:
One other point...I know that the gold mining industry purveys a standard line when asked about its failure to co-operate: but the government has anti-trust statutes that prevent us from getting together!

That response was very nice and civilized when gold traded at $360 an ounce. But now, with gold at $285 and maybe heading lower, it has become a fight for survival. A whole industry is facing possible extinction!
That means this forum will shut down too because talking about gold will become as relevant as talking about asbestos ( remember what happened to that little mineral, folks? ) ...or beach sand for that matter.

There are a variety of industries in this country that operate in oligopolistic fashion...contrary to the anti-trust laws. You have automobiles...petroleum...TV broadcasters...somehow these guys get together and behave as de facto cartels. What is wrong with the gold industry? Are they virgins in a whorehouse...or simply dumber than doorknobs? Do most of the executives have really bad BO such that they can't stay in one room together for any length of time?

It's time to take the gloves off!

Remember the key words, gentlemen: co-operation, consolidation, shut-down!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:49
LGB U>(You know Gold's in trouble and but may be at the bottom when.....) ID#269409:
Your own home Beachtown newspaper, with a small readership below 20,000 decides to print a very long ultra bearish Gold article in their Sunday Business section. Yep, just one of hundreds country wide I'm sure about why Gold has lost it's glitter and has no future, but just thought I'd pass it on.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:42
Neophyte U>(Funds need gold at $280 for year end close) ID#390249:
Based on the attached article, funds need gold at $280 for year end close - so maybe we are at bottom.

My bet is that producers are also now selling for year end close.

The first quarter should be interesting - again I'm cautiously optimistic.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:40
JimX67 U>() ID#239365:
John Disney : many thanks for your very encouraging post dec 10 02:19
re SA mines...Let's look at their 4th quarter results
which could show how they resist vs low gold price...
I still think they will be a good bargain at the next
gold bounce. My sole fear, for e.g. ERPM, was a
definitive close, which could be hard for a buyer
on margin with 3x or such leverage...

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:39
LGB U>(Mistake in my 17:30 post) ID#269409:
Please pardon typo Freudian slip of final sentance. Nut Goldbugs supposed to be But Goldbugs!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:36
JimX67 U>() ID#239365:
John Disney : many thanks for your very encouraging post dec 10 02:19
re SA mines...Let's look at their 4th quarter results
which could show how they resist vs low gold price...
I still think they will be a good bargain at the next
gold bounce. My sole fear, for e.g. ERPM, was a
definitive close, which could be hard for a buyer
on margin with 3x or such leverage...

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:35
LGB U>(@ JTF) ID#269409:
But JTF, I doth protest, I've posted my investment strategy many times here, and even all my specific trades in advance ( since I began posting here ) .

My flag waving, science and reason posts are meant for reality check benefit, and to encourage a shift in thinking into the 20th century! I don't expect Voronsky to reply to my posts, I've never seen a reply from him to any poster who has a criticsm of one of his site analysts.

Nevertheless, I think the point remains worth making. If someone posts here saying someone should forgoe heart surgery and consult a witchdoctor or psyhcic touch healer instead, I'll post a contrary opinion to that as well...and the parralels are certainly fair ( IMNHO )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:35
WASHINGTON ( Reuters ) - “The IMF said on Monday it would ask member states to cough up extra cash as Asia's worsening financial problems drain its resources.”

The most succinct way to describe the ridiculous actions of the IMF in its actions to “rescue” Asia is:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:35
Dave in CO U>(@Dwayne_A) ID#215211:
As a mainframe COBOL programmer who wrote a lot of code with 2-digit years, I was told by mgt not to worry because none of the systems would be around in the year 2000. Well, many of the old systems are still around and interface in very complex ways to other systems which in turn may or may not be compliant. So a percentage of the X% that works may be corrupted by the Y% that do not. I don't pretend to know what will result.

I would doubt if very many young people have heard of the problem unless they are in IS ( IT or whatever they call it now ) or they follow the Internet. My daughter ( non-tech degree and job ) who is very well informed compared to other young people, but only gets the news from TV, hadn't even heard of Y2K. Granted there is coverage in newspapers and the Internet, but 70% of people get all their info from TV. Young people have experience with standalone micro computers but most don't have a clue about the complexity of information systems.

You're right about ball players who are 30% successful. Even a player who hit 200 is forever immortalized in the Mendoza Line.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:31
farfel U>(Producer...Yes, In Fact, You Are An Idiot...But There's Still Hope!) ID#28585:
Producer, the reason you are an idiot is that, in the first place, you are sitting in a banker's office pitching your gold project. Why do you want to pitch a gold project in this environment? It is like trying to sell snow to Siberia. There are too many of you little guys running around dumping your metal into a market that does not want it.

Gold mining consolidation is the only hope for the industry. Take a good look at the absence of a cartel, oil would sell for around $6.00 a barrel.

Yes, I realize that central banks essentially control world gold supply. So, it is imperative for the industry to send a message to the banks.
If they continue to sell gold, then the mining industry is shutting down. We will only mine existing reserves.

As far as I am concerned, the one mining company with the most brains and guts is Pegasus. They are bloody heroes...Don't laugh!! They sent a big Screw You to the Australian government by shutting down the Mt. Todd mine. Yes, if Australia wants to sell off its gold reserves, terrific. But, Pegasus will respond by putting a few thousand miners onto the streets for the government to support...not to mention the various gold mine suppliers that are filing for bankruptcy. The Pegasus short-term shareholders got screwed...but the long-term shareholders will see a tremendous re-bound in their equity if gold ever strengthens again. That will happen provided all the other gold companies get together and end the factionalization that prevents them from realizing optimum gold prices.

Mr. Munk and Barrick should set up a provisional fund to support companies such as Pegasus to get them through this tough period. In fact, the entire industry should create some kind of emergency funds pool to allow various companies to shut down their mines and survive this tough period. That one action will scare the pants off of the short players.

Consolidation...Co-operation...and Shut-Down...those are the key words!!!
It should become the rallying cry of the industy!!

Remember, shorts who sell gold must at some point re-enter the market and buy. The mere suggestion that, in reality, global gold production is shutting down will make them extremely nervous. After all, what if, heaven forbid, the central banks DO stop selling gold. Where will they get it from?

There will be tremendous psychological damage inflicted against the shorts one they see evidence of both gold mining consolidation and simultaneous shut-down.

If you have not already done so, then please read my earlier letter to the Toronto Globe and Mail re: Peter Munk.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:30
PrivateInvestor U>(aloha) ID#225283:


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:30
LGB U>(@ Karlito99, Gold at $100) ID#269409:
Karlito, I've read your rationale for Gold=$100, however, I'm wondering how you square that belief with a commodity that is being consumed faster than it's produced?

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that Gold as a Govt. based monetary instrument is a relic of the past, and will never play a signifigant role in the future, however, I also believe an ever expanding ppol of consumers will always buy Gold for jewelry, and Govt's and private mints WILL continue to mint Gold coins and bars. which some investors will continue to take comfort in, ( and that number may grow in the future as we could well be at a bearish factor low point for Gold as an investment )

I'm no Diehard Fanatic Goldbug, ( needless to say ) and have no ax to grind either way, but I see Gold as having difficulty punching through much below it's $280 support level, due to the mine reduced production that would occur. After all, how many more CB sales do you think can take place?

I don't think the U.S. will sell of it's Ft Knox reserves, not because of marriage to Gold as monetary instrument, but because in spite of the divorce from same, the U.S. Govt. will always worry about the perception change that would occur re our financial solvency, if public ta large learned we were selling off the reserves. Atfer all, the U.S. remains the mightiest economy, with the strongest currency, and the greatest world confidence level, in modern times.

The sale of our reserves, the LARGEST in the world, would not compensate for the public perception problems that could occur if it were to take place. This is one of the reasons the Euro may not be able to compete with our mighty dollar. Perception. I'm not arguing for a Gold standard, nut Goldbugs rightly have a point that money backed by something, even if it's only perceived as such, can sway the court of public confidence worldwide.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:30
PrivateInvestor U>(Central Banks could back their paper with blood) ID#225283:

SDR to Pints
SDR to Gold

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:29
JTF U>(Your 16:39) ID#57232:
LGB: You should read your 16:39, then you will know what I am referring to in my post to you. You have a trading method with silver -- why dont' you tell us about that -- or whether you think the CB gold elephants will sit down again. Did you notice that Vronsky did not respond to your post? I wonder, should I follow the same approach? You see -- when you are in a more positive mood, your posts are very informative -- I guess that's why I have not yet given up -- yet.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:28
Producer U>(Head in the Ground) ID#226355:
JTF: Your ostrich analogy is close. I think that most of the miners I talk to are very aware of impending doom. There is a big difference between what is being publicly said and what producers are saying in private. This includes everyone I know working for the majors. The current price drop in gold is largely irrelevant, the time it stays down is critical. We can hold our breath for only so long, if this goes on much longer there will be a major sea change in the business, which will be very bullish for the price of gold. Unfortunately, at least for me, I may be one of the victims. Now if I can just find some SCUBA gear.....

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:25
Y2KBug__A U>(Ted, Tort, and whoever, re:49ers/Broncos) ID#234311:
Off topic, but...
Tonite's matchup is moot. The Chiefs have already beaten the almighty Denver, and put a 44-9 whipping on the 49ers. 49ers are good, but overrated, Broncos after tonight will be only a wild-card team. GreenBay vs Chiefs in SuperBowl, unfortunately, GB will probably prevail. Whatever happened to Golden Cheesehead?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:25
PrivateInvestor U>(GFD) ID#225283:

Thank you for your input...sounds as if you have been to thru similar dog & pony shows a few times...this on is still a big maybe!

You would agree that if they could make it thru trials it could be a big winner...

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:25
Perhaps a discussion site to espouse the worthlessness of gold and a place to freely exchange hot-tips on securities, etc...having a congenial aire filled with respectful exchange of ideas to possibly formulate constructive investment ideas for common monetary enhancement. Why would a republican attend the democrats' convention? participate in a constructive manner...not.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:11
CJS1__A U>(Gold's renaissance) ID#329157:
Will the price of gold take off ( as it has in Korean Won ) in Western currencies? Maybe, but I think that the stakes are too high for the powers that be to relinquish the downwards pressure yet. Unless there is some unexpected calamity, the powers that be surely have plenty of dry powder and central bank strings left to keep the gold price down. With so much at stake- they will put every last penny into holding down the significator of inflation. And I note that, looking at the Privateer's charts, the gold price is in a downtrend. I suspect that the powers that be will have to exhaust their resources before gold takes off, and until then it will be in a downtrend or in a trading range. When the powers that be reach their limit- that will be when the oil nations demand payment in gold, or the dollar is subjected to heavy disinvestment, or sales of Treasuries become overwhelming, or another cause, those signs will be obvious to Kitcoites, but it may be too late by then as the gold traders' shelves will look like the supermarket shelves in Seoul.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:08
JTF U>(Where are the cost effective gold mines?) ID#57232:
Producer: Your comment makes alot of sense. The people that need to decide where a gold mine should be are using figures derived before gold's collapse, and no one is really facing the issue in current terms. Therefore if you present your reason why gold mining is cheaper in a country that just devalued their currency, you get deaf ears. Is that it? I guess there's nothing new under the sun in any profession, be it physics or gold mining -- there are Ostriches wherever you work!

I guess what that means for us investors is that since few of the mine operators/financiers have adapted to the new times, we as investors should focus on the producers that already have low costs, as many of us have already. What odd times we live in!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:03
Paul U>(South Korea to float the Won.) ID#22785:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:02
Dwayne__A U>(Y2K) ID#270230:
I have this intersting thought that many here have touched on, and thats Friday December 31,1999. If there's one thing most people love to hate its uncertainty. Once you exit the comforts of your house you enter into a computerized world, from the second you jump into your computerized car ( EFI ) to the first computerized traffic light you approach, to the computerized supermarket scanner. Knowing a fair bit about COBOL and mainframes leads me to this conclusion. The younger you are the less computers scare you, that in turn can only mean that the ever aging population in North America are the ones who will panic and make a mad rush to the bank ( on media generated fears ) to withdrawl money the banks no longer have.

In the meantime gold will skyrocket in price and when markets in Asia open on Monday ( Sunday to North Americans ) the price of Gold will absolutely plummet ( worse than the hammering its currently getting ) . If 70% of computers do fail the other 30% will make the game interesting. In baseball 30% success is worth millions per year. In conclusion there are two positions you don't want to find yourself doing on January 2,002. Number one is holding gold and Number two is being only educated in COBOL programming.

No offense to goldbugs but a reality check is in order on the Y2K fear.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 17:01
Producer U>(I'm just an Idiot.....) ID#226355:
Farfel,old gold-Guess what happens when I get a Gold project together and and pitch it to my banker. He looks at the money required, looks at my reserves and my expected production and then REQUIRES me to sell forward to achieve price stability so he can be assured of being paid!!Please explain how this is some nefarious plot to manipulate the POG and how this makes me an idiot. It is just business to me.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:52
farfel U>(Peter Munk...Too little, Too late!) ID#28585:
Old Gold...I think Barrick's purchase of their shares is a mere feather blowing against the wind of extreme gold bearishness. is better than nothing...but not much better.

Please apprise your various friends in this forum to take a read of the Peter Munk letter. I think it proposes the only viable, sensible strategy to preclude the gold collapse we are facing.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:52
Paul U>(Looks like the IMF is out of funds. What next?) ID#22785:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:52
STUDIO.R U>(@KARLITO....Okay, Okay,Okay.....) ID#93236:
We'll skip gold for times sake...but swiss, that's a different matter, eh?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:45
Carl U>(Donald) ID#333131:
For your info: Dow/Gold at 28.64 was with Dow 8078 and Gold 282.05.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:42
OLD GOLD U>(Peter Monk) ID#238295:
Farfel: I too have long felt the gold mining industry must consolidate in a big way. Far too many weak players leaves the industry at the mercy of short sellers and the central banks. Today's gold depression should force many of the idiots who run the gold mining companies to radically shift their disastrous strategies.

That said I still think that Peter Monk's decision to repurchase 10% of his stock is very bullish.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:42
Karlito99__A U>(The Gap and goldwear) ID#78116:
Studio_R..... the Gap wouldn't want to go that down market. Their consumers are much to elitist and upscale to buy such a trashy fashion accessory as gold

The Gap knows that Wal*Mart is the biggest single retailer of gold in the US. The Gap could never compete on price with Wal*Mart, at least until the price of gold fell another $180 or so and got down below $100.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:42
PrivateInvestor U>(Back to the Bible) ID#225283:

Let us not forget:

JOB 31:24 ; PROV 8:19

on the subject of gold.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:39
LGB U>(@ DaveinCO, JTF, market analysis) ID#269409:
Dave in CO, I'll pull up the biblical references tonight and try to post them. I follow Van Impe on ocassion, he's the best known biblical prophecy expert currently. As to racism, if you read my posts, I try and be sarcastically humorous at times, and I found the OJ debalce, the playing of the race card in that trial and such, and certainly the jury's behaviour, to be absurd. It's not an indictment of blacks, it's an indictment of how this particular jury, and black America at large, were influenced by the misbehaviours of Jonny Cochran and Dancing Judge Ito. As you know, most black juries convict black defendants at a higher rate than white juries do, so it has nothing to do with black juries being racially motivated, and a lot to do with that idiot ito, and how he allowed Cochran to run his courtroom.

Now then JTF, what personal attacks are you referrring to? It's not personal to have a philosophical belief ( or lack thereof ) in astrology as a predicitive tool. Astrology, psychic ability, etc. is readily scientifically testable as to it's veracity, however, no psychis or Astrolgers have ever scientifically been able to demonstrate either concept as viable.

The tactic of making a call after the fact is one of the most basic tenets of snakeoildom, and it certainly applies in this case. It's similar to what medical quacks do with their cures. The cure is given, and the patient is eitehr already getting better due to his immune system, or taking a real medication, etc. yet the quack gets the credit for saying his elixer effected the cure. ( Of course of the patient dies, it's because the patient didn't get enough of the elixer, or didn't consult the quack soon enough to be saved! )

You can generate positive results for ANY nonsense by using these type of techniques. That's why I take issue with Voronsky's lauding of Shellers Great Silver Call when so many of Voronsky's OTHER analysts were the ones who ACTUALLY made the call, and long before SHeller and long before the market began it's great November/December rise.

Personally, I've been folowing Silver and Silver market analysts for years now, and many of them have been bullish for what appear to be legitimate technical reasons for the past 2 years or so.

I have no problem with metaphysics JTF, but when claims are testable, they should be tested. It adds nothing to the debate to make a great call after a move has already started, and then be given credit for the work of others.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:39
Donald__A U>(@Kitco) ID#26793:
XAU/Spot Ratio = .242

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:38
Ted U>(@ TORT and the evening JOKE) ID#364147:
Tort: incase ya missed it--the evening joke is on YOU my friend as yer 49ers are goin get slaughtered by the Broncos ( can't believe EB + I agree on somethin! )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:35
Donald__A U>(@Kitco) ID#26793:
Dow/Gold Ratio = 27.83

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:34
Producer U>(re: JTF-7:08 post) ID#226355:
JTF- Focusing on other countries to move my operations to is what I have been looking into for the last three months. So far however all the projects I have looked at so far are carrying a price tag related to the old price of gold or owners of reserves have insisted on valuing the ground using some future assumed gold value. No one is admitting to the current value of gold. This makes it very difficult to justify capitalizing a project when the expected returns, using current gold prices, are going to be so low compared to the purchase price. Has anyone else in the business noticed this situation?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:31
OLD GOLD U>() ID#238295:
JTF: i have 5% of my assets in gold mutuals and 95% in cash. Yesterday I had just 2% in gold mutuals. I plan to hike my gold percentage to 10% in the near future and 20% on a successful retest of the lows.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:29
Ted U>(@ Private Investor) ID#364147:
Downright balmy P.I. ( 80 degrees with a gentle seabreeze ) .....Re-Canadian dollar problems + local economy----No affect what-so-ever----we go with the flow dude and as long as those U.I checks ( unemployment ) keep rollin in we're happier than a pig in sh!t~~~~~

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:29
Dwayne__A U>(Y2K) ID#270230:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:28
farfel U>(Who is Peter Munk Kidding?) ID#28585:

Re: Munk Pans Knee Jerk Reaction Against Gold.

Dear Editor:

Mr. Peter Munk of Barrick Gold has some gall to blame World Central
Banks for the horror story unfolding in the gold mining industry. In
fact, he is one of the leading contributors to the malaise afflicting
the precious metal. Barrick's shareholders ought to fire him summarily
along with his entire executive board of sycophantic ducks.

Yes, it's true that, owing to forward hedging, he locked in most of
Barrick's production at $410 an ounce. Most observers would consider
that a shrewd tactic. However, it is a Pyrrhic victory at best. In
reality, forward sales of gold by self-serving mining companies like
Barrick contributed to the over-supply of gold in the market. When gold
reached $410 an ounce and the world's largest mining company sold
forward such a huge position in gold, is it any wonder that Central
Banks decided they ought to follow a similar course...especially given
gold's stagnant price over the last decade?

Mr. Munk further feigns concern about the possible social disruptions
that might unfold in a major gold-producing country such as South
Africa. When he dumped Barrick's gold supply upon the market at $410 an
ounce, was that an act of social conscience where South Africa is
concerned? Hell, was Barrick acting in its own selfish
interest, oblivious to the perceptions and ramifications this huge
forward sale would have on the world gold market.

If gold mining companies really wish to convince Central Banks that gold
stands any chance of future appreciation, then they better skip the hot
air and pursue immediate, tangible strategies in addressing the
over-supply problem.

First, they must immediately cease all forward sales of gold. Secondly,
they must announce to the world that all future exploration of gold is
ending today and they will only work the existing mines. Third, they
must consolidate their industry so that it is similar structurally to
other major oligopolistic/monopolistic commodity suppliers ( such as
OPEC ) . Fourth, they must mount a concerted propaganda campaign to
convince Central Banks and major global financial institutions that gold
truly is a financial reserve and not merely another commodity. In other
words, they must shift their focus from supply to demand. It seems
everytime we open a newspaper or turn on the TV today, we see a constant
assault on the value of gold mounted by disciples of the so-called New
Paradigm. It would make a great deal more sense to forego opening a
single gold mine and use the monies saved to finance pro-gold lobbyists
and media exponents who can reverse the negative psychology that's
developed around the metal.

If the foregoing measures are adopted quickly, then I predict you would
see a short squeeze on gold that might send it back into the
stratosphere. In doing so, tens of thousands of hard-working miners
still might have jobs by the time Christmas rolls around.

The most unnerving aspect of the current gold crisis is its potential
spillover effects. Weakness in gold is spilling over onto other metals
such as platinum and copper. In effect, if counter-measures are not
enacted swiftly, we soon might witness numerous mine closures in
virtually every metal industry. Can you just imagine the devastation
this phenomenon would wreak upon the resource-dependent Canadian
economy? Already, various financial analysts are attributing unusual
weakness in the Canadian dollar to currency speculator concerns over
future, pandemic weakness in Canada's resource sector.

In conclusion, I would ask Mr. Munk one final question: if he is truly
bullish on gold as he claims, then why the hell is he shifting
significant amounts of assets into Trizec-Hahn, the commercial property
developer? If he truly believes in the gold mining industry, then he
is sending the wrong message by simply buying back his own company's
shares. The only message the buyback sends to the world is that Peter
Munk believes in Peter Munk. Instead, he should acquire and/or merge
with another major gold mining company ( like Battle Mountain, Placer
Dome, TVX, Homestake, Royal Oak, Newmont or Kinross ) . In doing so, he will put the entire gold market on notice that short sellers best beware because mining consolidation is in the works.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:26
GFD U>(Bloody Subject) ID#424345:
Private Investor: Re your bloody bio-tech firm. The class 3 FDA approvals will be the rocky shoals that have and will sink blood transfusion alternatives. Not only must they not kill or maim patients but they must show some type of net benefit.

Unless they have very good class 2 results I would treat this as a very speculative type of investment. The other thing that any blood replacement should do is have a long shelf life. Unless your candidate has both sterling class 2 review results and have solved the shelf life issue I would treat this as a very high risk play - even worse than gold, maybe... :- )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:23
STUDIO.R U>(PrivateInvestor....THE GAP TO SELL GOLDWEAR) ID#93236:
P.I.... I think you could sell a helluva' lot of gold at any mall in the U.S...A small, demure storefront...well lit displays...eagles for $339....Phillies for $ chocolates...Karlito as general mgr...Goldman Sachs & Lehman fighting over the offering...damnit...registered stock.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:21
PrivateInvestor U>(ted ) ID#225283:

How is the weather up there today?

Any word in the local paper about C$ problems and it impacting the local economy.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:19
golddkm U>(Cyclist...I agree) ID#432148:
Not sure about when it's going to break out,
but name should be changed from Vaal Reefs to
Value Reefs.

Am I dreaming, or is the market cap of Western
Deep, Free State, and Kloof, all under 500
million dollars each.

Would buyers rather have 84 points of paper
earnings, than one ounce of real assets?

We'll see...

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:18
ShortSellr U>(vronsky & RCA) ID#288310:
There is nothing I would enjoy more than shorting MSFT from 130 down to 3.

By the way, what Nationality are you comrade? Do Svedan'ye

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:18
PrivateInvestor U>(karlitto blood money) ID#225283:

the deal is for a private placement , followed by bridge funding ...then it looks as though they will be taken out by one of the big boys before any type of an ipo.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:10
PrivateInvestor U>(Karlitto 99) ID#225283:

I have not read your previous posts ...but I have read comments about them....I must say that your latest post is very lucid and logical.

I may be participating in a FInancial Services Venture in Asia in 1998.I suggested that they consider including gold as an offered investment ; even if it must be done as a loss leader ...kind of a come on to buy the business.

The market research I have reviewed projects that the firm would do very well to market not only the standard offerings found in the USA but also gold.This may be possible at very large margins from offering physical gold in huge volume plus a premium above spot.If not highly profitable at the onset is should prove well worth it from the standpoint of buying new business. This is something unique for most US financial services operations.

Conservation of core clients is the key...if they want gold ....damn it sell em gold ...they'll be back later to buy every other product and service under the sun....

This treaty should be great for the financials services could just save several of them from collapse...then again it could push some over the edge...

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:06
Jung U>(What the bible says about gold) ID#237164:
The Bible says plenty about gold ... go to

and type in gold and then poke the search button.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:06
Dave in CO U>(Dick Gregory: I've always felt that Ron Brown was murdered.) ID#215211:
Gregory: This is worse than Nazi Germany because they didn't pretend that they had a right for a free press. Here you have people believe that the press is independent of the government while they are one and the same.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:04
Allen(USA) U>(Gold spot price action view (MO, obviously).) ID#246224:
USAGold commentary indicated that Hong Kong demand was picking up but thin and people were waiting for the US market to open. During the period of time when both London and New York were open was when we saw the rise in price, which seems to coroborate the aforementioned statement.

Asian buying on the London market while looking over the shoulder at New York. This and the news about Dubai buying spreed is good news. At least there is a shift in sentiment, particularly in view of the second round of devaluations which seem to be beginning in Asia.

Silver looks nice and firm at $5.90 awaiting the next push upward. I feel this is a good sign that indicates rational market activity verses irrational panic buying. The first leg was so fast it was kind of scary, no?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 16:01
Ted U>(Watchin 'Simpsons' re-runs) ID#364147:
To help predict the future direction of Gold~~~~~~~~

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:54
vronsky U>(ASIA BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARDSPOT (December 15, 1997)) ID#426220:
The ORACLE of the Orient long absent from our website has returned with a vengeance in his scathing rebuttal of Central Bank spewing that “gold is dead,” that “gold is no longer a hedge against economic and currency chaos,” etc. etc. His succinct and extremely well-documented opinion concludes that Central Bank braying is “RUBBISH, RUBBISH AND MORE RUBBISH.”

The ORACLE proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the only defense southeast Asians had... AND WILL HAVE - against the on-going currency chaos, stock market turmoil and the region’s crumbling bank system is to invest in GOLD. The staunchest and most fanatical anti-GOLDBUGS are obliged to concede to the irrefutable evidence that GOLD is the ONLY SAFE HARBOR vis-à-vis the looming and devastating Domino Effect engulfing the area:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:54
Karlito99__A U>(Blood replacement) ID#78116:
I did a project awhile back for Amgen, they have a similar product that was in test at that time. My bet is there are other similar types of developments at many of the bio-tech firms.

My concern would be the total backlog of products that your potential new ipo might have.... if they are only a one act play, the stock won't have much in the way of legs once it gets out of the hands of the issuers.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:53
Good ol' boy U>(Studio.R) ID#26362:
Received. Thanks

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:50
PrivateInvestor U>(EB & all re;Blood types) ID#225283:

Currently in the DD stage of maybe participating in a private placement offering of a bio-tech firm that hopes to make blood type problems/transfusions a thing of the past...the developement of technology that breaks donor blood down to a level acceptable to all...all blood can be altered to the common denominater and therefore usable by all....What do you think? Patent values could sky rocket.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:44
STUDIO.R U>(@tim) ID#93236:
Please check your e.mail.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:39
Karlito99__A U>(xau5.... the trade deal is a great deal) ID#78116:
Particularly for foreign investors. US financial service firms are the best in the world. They have been forced to be the best by being in the most open market for financial services, the US. The multiplicity of choices that US investors have will now be made available to investors around the world.

I see it as an unambiguously positive development that can only accelerate the global integration of the world economy an information based standard.

Its just more bad news for gold because people who had limited investment options did the best they could, which meant they got stuck with gold. Now that they can buy financial assets, backed by US based firms, those assets will rise in value, and gold can only fall.... even more.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:39
vertigo U>(Arden, arden, arden....) ID#42371:
Arden, what are the Comex gold stocks doing? Thanks

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:36
Digdeep U>(Gold in India) ID#267276:
Gold sales in India are booming now, but wait till newyears when they dont have to pay a tarriff and it becomes easier for the public to purchase for investment.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:22
Ted U>(@ JTF) ID#364147:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:21
JTF U>(Looks like the same package to me!) ID#57232:
Right, Ted?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:19
JTF U>() ID#57232:
LGB: Why don't you tell us what you are doing investmentwise or something else along those lines? Please leave personal attacks out of your posts. Vronsky has one of the best sites on the Net. Incidentally, there is a lunar connection with silver for some reason, but I have not deciphered it. May be the fact that the earth's geomagnetic field extends far away from the sun due to the solar wind, and the moon perturbs it as it passes through. There is some evidence that the geomagnetic field affects human behavior. I need better geomagnetic data -- probably real time info before I can confirm this.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:18
Ted U>(@ Turning over a new 'leaf') ID#364147:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:15
Dave in CO U>(@LGB) ID#215211:
You're right - Dr. Van Impe. Do you have Bible references to gold confiscation? Thanks.

DEJ pointed me to James Chapter 5 which says, Your gold and silver are corroded. ... You have hoarded your wealth in the last days. But this refers to rich people like you, LGB, obviously not to goldbugs.

Your racist statement was a joke?

I posted the following:
[70% in BET poll think Ron Brown was murdered]

Immediately after which you posted:
[99% in BET poll think OJ was innocent]

You have stated time after time that anyone who believes in conspiracy theories are somehow mentally deficient or otherwise afflicted. Your statement branded virually all the respondents in the BET poll the same.

Doesn't sound like a joke to me but, as you said, I'm a moron.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:09
LGB U>(@ Vronsky, re Great call on Silver) ID#269409:
Vronsky I don't usually hassle you because you have a great site, but do you think we could have a little less of the Great call on Silver by SHeller nonsense?

I think it does a great diservice to the analysts on your site who actually DID make the great call on Silver....many months ago and before it started it's great move. Sheller makes his call AFTER everyone else does, and AFTER it begins it's great bull run, and now is lauded as making a great call.... Puhleaase...

I know my biases are showing, but this is such a common tactic amongst psychic and astrology types in boosting their hit rate. They study the true guru's , wait for the trend to begin, and then make their predictions to the ooohs and ahhhs of the faithful who then say See, it was a GREAT call

Remaining unimpressed... ( and as a layman, having also made the SILVER call LONG before Sheller... )

Member of the Skeptic society of S.C.,

P.S. Love your site and not trying to attack it, just had to get this one off my chest.....

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:08
JTF U>(Secondhand information - like a mushroom!) ID#57232:
Good Ol' Boy: I needed that! We are always getting secondhand information! Being a gold bug is like being a mushroom -- we're always in the dark. There is one good thing, though. Those gold rallys, rare as they seem to be -- are like gushers and they are worth the wait! Sort of like waiting for the big wave -- hope the big one is not a Tsunami!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 15:00
LGB U>(NightWriter...Gold up an anomoly) ID#269409:
Gold is up today because Rothschild and his LBMA conspirator minions decided to take today as a holiday. When they return to their price fixing, One world Govt. currencies schemes ( tomorrow or so ) then the price will be manipulated and artificaially depressed once again. ( Where WERE those guy's in 1980 when we really neeeded them anyway? )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:58
Good ol' boy U>(JTF) ID#26362:
The captain gave his steward a bottle of whiskey. The next day the captain said Steawart, how was that whiskey? The steward replied, Paiptain, it was just right- had it been any worse, I could not have durnk it and had it been any better you would have drunk it yourself.

Not certain how this relates to the current gold market and gold bugs, but there seems to be a casual relationship.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:54
NightWriter U>(Hey i may be poor but... oh, let's just leave it at that) ID#320441:
There seems to be a problem with the Kitco chart and most of the other Internet gold price information sources - they are indicating gold is up today. Of course that can't be - does anyone know what really happened?

Or did gold go down, but the dollar went down even further, so as to make it just appear that gold has gone up?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:53
fundaMETAList U>(EB, All) ID#341214:
EB: B-, huh. EB must mean Exceptional Blood. I'll have to keep track of you. My wife is B-. She's a rare gal indeed.

All: Tort has provided us with the joke of the day already but I had to share this Y2K stuff with you. It's from our Kiwi friends.


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:52
LGB U>(@ DaveinCO, re Gold being worthless according to biblical prophecy) ID#269409:
The Televangelist to which you refer is Dr. Van Impe, and he didn't say that the coming tribulation will see Gold dropping in price in prophecy. What he said was that their Silver would be cast into the street ( thus worthless ) and that Gold would be taken from them ( i.e. confiscated ) .

There are actually a number of biblical prophecies re the Apocolypse that make similar statements as to Gold and Silver being no security at all in the last days, so if you believe in the possibility of coming Biblical Apocolypse, and are in preparation for same, Gold & Silver are a poor place to put your trust.

( BTW, as an aside to my former satirical joke last week...saying most Blacks believe OJ is innocent is a statement of fact, not racism...what IS rascist is to deny such realities and play the race card if someone else should point them out. That's Orwellian double think if ever there was some...and very abhorrent in my view. get a sense of humor my friend... )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:51
Y2KBug__A U>(CJS re:CFC's, Carl re:Greenspan) ID#234311:
CJS: My figure comes from reference to Ray's book 'Trashing the Planet', via Limbaugh, but I have yet to see any definitive refutation of that figure. If your sources are genuine, I will have to stand corrected. However, your statement that the chlorine-based gases just ooze over the crater rim tends to make me believe that they are heavier than the surrounding air, and if so, how is it that man-made CFC's get up into the stratosphere? Any mechanism for getting the man-made stuff up there has to apply equally to the naturally-occuring stuff, which is, even by your quoted figures, a considerable amount. I don't think that we release enough chlorine daily to compare to what occurs naturally.

Carl: Sorry -- my facetiousness detector was temporarily on the blink. A couple of good whacks with a rubber mallet seems to have straightened it out. ( the bruises will disappear in time... )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:48
JTF U>(Dead Sheep? That is Tortfeasor grade!) ID#57232:
Good ol' boy:It's a full moon, and I think everyone's a bit off today! I wonder if there's a connection between the full moon, the Korean run on food, and the Dubai run on gold!

Great joke! Why did you choose a dead sheep? Golden Fleece? Now - no one wanted to stop to get the gold? I think we are all in need of some comic relief. A two year wait for a gold bug is about all I can take.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:42
rube U>(SWC) ID#333127:
Just bot SWC at 16 and 3/4. Buy them cheap

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:37
STUDIO.R U>(@Dave in CO....I'm worried now too.) ID#93232:
Was the good brother broadcasting from San Quentin? Oh my God!, now the clergy is shorting the market. Bet he won't bet his Rolex and nugget pinkie!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:36
Good ol' boy U>() ID#26362:
Having sorted through the Kitco comments, I am more convinced than ever that the more times you run over a dead sheep, the flatter it gets.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:34
DEJ U>(Bible and Gold) ID#269191:
It's in the Book of James.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:30
Lurker 777 U>(Dave of CO.) ID#317247:
Dont know of any verses in the bible describing a decline in gold. I was thinking that Revolation predicts one world currency ( mark of the beast ) so all currency would have to become automated and tractable. If you take paper currency out then Gold will be the only untraceable currency recognized worldwide and very attractive to anyone not taking the mark ( 666 ) . This seems very bullish for gold in the end times!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:16
themissinglink__A U>(Central bank sales) ID#373403:
The perception regarding Central Bank gold overhang is odd. There has always been and always will be Central Bank overhang with respect to money vis a vis the printing press. The price of the dollar does not crash ( inflation ) everytime a Central Bank is about to, or actually does, print money.

I find it odd that the gold market reacts so heavily downward with the perception that Central Banks will unload their gold. In a sense, this type of selling provides liquidity to the gold market more than supply. There are more dollars in the world than consumption yet the price of dollars does not continuously reflect a fear that all those dollars will mobilise at once for purchases of goods. True gold supply increases would be more gold mined, not more gold mobilised by hoarders.

What Central Bank dis-hoarding will do, in addition to supplying liquidity, is to stableize the gold market price. Any upmoves from equilibrium will be doused by market liquidity. Equilibrium will be somewhere slightly above the average mine production cost. Without market volatility, there will be little speculation buying and then who will buy a Central Banks gold? What incentive will anyone have to buy Switzerlands 1,400 tonnes of gold when the price will likely not go up or down very much.

The jewelry industry will operate in a stable oversupply, with little price volatility. That is when political or unstable market conditions could produce cyclical spikes. We should all thank the Central Banks for driving the price of their reserve assets down to a known bottom. It makes crisis investing all the easier.


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:16
tolerant1 U>(hmmm) ID#31868:
I see the market getting clanked out of nowhere. Out of the blue as it is said. Things are too disjointed and yet the US market remains calm to a large extent. The tech stocks have not seen anywhere near the bite they are really going to get hit with.

In addition there are any one of a number of political items that could hop up and bite the US market at any given moment.

One of the main problems for the US is who is there to bail it out, nobody, and nobody will come to our rescue. Ha!

Korea floats its currency. Big talk, lots of coverage, but it does point out once again what happens with a currency backed by confidence. One major hurt put on the US dollar and people will find out what it is really worth. How big is that national debt.

A country is really no different than a vendor, Yet the customer does not have the total freedom of choice to pick and choose. This US vendor wants everybody to be their customer.

I say the reason the US$ and markets get hammered IS due to the fact that they are both too big for their britches. They have nowhere to go but down.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:14
STUDIO.R U>( we wait and wait until the last syllable of recorded trades? eh?) ID#93232:
We have entered the paradoxical continuum of purgatorial no swapumville? Daddy, Are we there yet? No, son, go back to sleep.
But I need to go to the bathroom. We'll be there in a little bit, son. eh?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:11
Dave in CO U>(@The Karlitto Man makin' speeches) ID#215211:
John Disney: Suspect he was forced to join Toastmasters on orders from his employer to improve his poor interpersonal skills or else. Even LGB had a sense of humor.

Saw a TV evangelist who said that a drop in gold ( & AG ) is predicted in the Bible, and that they won't recover. That scares me more than all the central banks. Have to research that one. Remember the verses but didn't interpret them that way.

a.j.: Also have FCX ( A ) in my IRA. Let me know if you hear any news.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 14:04
EB U>(Rare gold Blood...ohmy) ID#22956:
Thanks Spud for sparing a pint today. It will be put to good use somewhere. I have been a blood donor for MANY years ( 5+ gallon club ) . They call me up wherever I move. My blood type is B- ( 1.3% of population ) . This is rare like Gold...more like Platinum.

btw dude......I AM A GOLD BUG...I like gold....I do not hoard gold...nor do I spend every waking hour thinking of gold. I like to make money with gold so I can buy a few OZ's ( gonna buy some Philho's soon;- ) ) of it from time to time and take loooong vacations. If you like to buy gold for a 'rainy/stormy' day than might I suggest you buy this stuff all the way down. It is CHEAP, comparitively speaking. Gold is is shiny...I like shiny and pretty...that is all.

Thanks again for the cross and others bless you.



Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:57
JTF U>(Dubai Gold rush!) ID#57232:
Kiwi, all: This and the peacetime food rush in South Korea makes me think we will have a gold rally long before we have a dollar crisis. I have increased my gold stock holdings to about 20% of liquid assets. Rest of liquid assets in cash.
D.A. I am also very frightened by the uncertainty. Your commodity trading/investments are safer than my gold stocks I think, because they can go up even if the US market crashes. Your only risk is a commodity price drop, which will probably be more predictable. You don't have CB' elephants to deal with. Did you know that I have plotted sunspot activity with the markets since 1900, and during the rapidly rising sunspot activity period in 1998, stock market prices, and commodity prices are statistically about twice as likely to rise than at any other time in the SSpot cycle? Gold also tends to rally at this time as well -- but the data does not give precise turning points.
All: This market is very different I think from any since the 1930's. The flight to gold it seems has already started. My guess is that everyone was waiting to see the bottom.
Kiwi: Thanks again for your post.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:40
xau5 U>(DA nice Genesis quote) ID#201131:
And let there be cash.I like that.When does the phrase be a debtor not come come to play.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:40
CJS U>(Spud Master: M1,2,3 data) ID#328159: ( and same with H6/Current/ added, except that URL messes up the kitco wizard )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:33
xau5 U>(Trade deal with the world) ID#201131:
Anybody have any thoughts on this treaty? I havent heard much.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:32
Mike Stewart U>(Pre 1986 Gold Stock Quotes) ID#270253:

Worden Brothers TC2000 Charting Data Base goes to January 1984 for DRFNY,AEM,FSCNY,KLOFY,NEM,VAALY and HM. It gos back almost as far for ABX and ECO. PDG only arrived in 1987. They have an into pack for about $30, History costs $1 per issue with daily updates via modem at 1/2 cent per day. I like it a lot. ( 800 ) 776-4940. Simple and effective.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:30
D.A. U>(dollars.and.deflation) ID#7568:

If the dollar genie gets loose we will have inflation in dollar terms. Just like the Weimar Republic. Do not confuse my calls for inflation with economic sobriety. Inflation induced by rapid currency expansion is no panacea. It is however, probably better than its obverse.

I am exceeding worried about all our investments. The better we do the more scared I get. Buying lots of physical things in an environment such as this seems a somewhat prudent approach. With the powers that be hell bent on keeping asset values from collapsing, they will likely overshoot in the amount of stimulus applied. The monetary hammer is a blunt instrument which often takes several quarters befores its effects are apparent. It is being swung with full force at the moment.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:26
Selby U>() ID#287207:
PLATEXCO is trading at about $C4 on TSE. Chart is available here:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:26
Spud Master: YOUR Request for “Would one of you please mention a URL or post a plot of M1, M2 and M3 for the last ten years?” SEE:

MONEY SUPPLY RISES - Broadest Measure of Money Supply M3 SOARS

For the latest 13 weeks, M2 averaged $3,974.7 billion, a 6.7% seasonally adjusted annual rate of gain from the previous 13 weeks. M3 averaged $5,243.5 billion, up 10.3%. Both measures of money supply will give impetus to rising inflation.

The Hong Kong Oracle, Milhouse, has always maintained there is a positive correlation between the trends of money supply ( M3 ) and the price of gold. In light of M3’s accelerating growth rate in recent months - the highest increase in over a decade, and nearly DOUBLE the Fed’s upper range guideline - it is well worth a re-study of Milhouse’s analysis, “US MONEY SUPPLY AND THE DEMAND FOR GOLD:”

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:20
JTF U>(I'm used to swimming with the sharks - get bit all the time!) ID#57232:
D.A. Thanks -- I have alot in gold already - for me anyway. Everything else liquid is in cash. I am just waiting. No offense intended.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:18
Silver Bull U>(EB's 12:05 ) ID#287312:

EB, good advise. Your last few posts have really been constructive--that helps us all.

As to the floor trader's comment on gold -- 33 out of 35 would be good odds in anything but gold, I think.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:15
a.j. U>(Freeport McMoran Copper and Gold, Irianjaya mine.) ID#256201:
I am beginning to doubt my own sense re: the extent to which the
elitists will go to preserve THEIR wealth and fleece us of ours.I have
been holding 2k of fcx stock through thick and thin, 'cause I know
H.Kissinger is on board of director. I ( foolishly? ) still believe there
is more to the Bre-X mine deal than has met the eye,'cause the Bre-x
properties are contiguous to the irianjaya mine of FMCG.
As I see that my bucks have decreased nearly 60% these past couple weeks,
I begin to doubt my competence.
Still holding my Bre-x stocks. Laff all you want, as I know I have lots
of company in misinvestments.
It's too late to do anything but hold on to both stocks now. Maybe a
good riteoff for next year if things don't improve by next year's end.

I let my mistrust of the conspirators color my thinking on these two.
Sometimes it ain't fun to be a contrarian!!
Any body got any ideas!!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:15
Spud Master U>(JTF, et al ...) ID#273112:
Would one of you please mention a URL or post a plot of M1, M2 and M3 for the last ten years?

I'd like to personally see the putative massive money printing spree that the Fed has been doing furtively.

Spuds ( minus one US pint of blood today...who knows, maybe Karlito99 or EB will get it as a transfusion some day ( grin ) Heaven forefend! No filthy GoldBug blood in my veins!! )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:14
kiwi U>(Word from the physical defies logic. ) ID#194311:
Low prices spur record Dubai gold rush

DUBAI, Dec 15 ( Reuters ) - Solid seasonal demand and the
weakest prices in around 18 years have driven Dubai gold offtake
to record levels, traders said on Monday.
Using words like 'tremendous', 'fantastic' and 'crazy' to
describe current demand, traders in the Gulf Arab emirate said
Indian customers were snapping up as much as they could of the
metal as an investment, and for wedding and Christmas gifts.
Demand is very strong. Dubai offtake is running at record
levels and there does seem to be a bit of a shortage of the
metal, said Jeffrey Rhodes, general manager of Standard Bank
London's Dubai representative office.
The low prices and wedding season mean that demand is crazy
at the moment. With India's stock markets so weak, gold is the
commodity of choice and people are adding it to their savings,
said one of Dubai's biggest bullion dealers into India.
Regardless of the apparent demand/supply imbalance, prices
are still under pressure. On Monday traders quoted the TT bar at
3,918/3,920 dirhams ( $1,068 ) from 3,988/3,990 dirhams a week
On the international market, spot gold was quoted at
$283.40/283.90 an ounce from $288.00/288.50 a week earlier.
It defies logic to see so much demand and the price so
low, a Dubai banker said, adding there needed to be a change in
market perception about what central banks' plans for gold were,
before prices could move up much.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:10
Allen(USA) U>(An extremely interesting correlation ..) ID#246224:
looking at the price of gold in currency charts at Gold-Eagle, Oracle's latest posting: Japan & Hard Place/Rock. In each case the price of gold from March to mid-July dropped on the order of 7 to 11%. The curve is very slow at first ( march to april ) and then picks up speed in descent until the Baht devaluation event. Then all hell breaks loose and the price of gold starts to ascend very steeply. All except for the Won. Its chart rebounds to april level and slowly rises till the time of Korea's disintegration ( to be expected ) . Then it goes parabolic.

The interesting thing to me is that the US$ chart of recent is doing a retake of these March through July charts in SE Asian currencies .. a fairly quick downward move. Gold also bottomed in US$ July. Using that as a baseline $315.00 - $31.50 = $283.50. Which is just about where we bottomed at and are holding at right now.

Any bets as to where we are going from here? Either steep ascent or parabolic?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:10
JTF U>(Is the money supply really regulated at all?) ID#57232:
D.A. : It's good to have a sense of humor in this crazy world isn't it?

Lets say you are right -- and electronic money creationism is a fact. Will that prevent a deflationary collapse? Can anyone prevent the possible currency Tsunami? My answer is no. All that one can do with even this slight of hand is to delay the inevitable. Going back to engineering principles, the most powerful feedback system in the world will not work unless one knows the exact phase relationships between cause and effect at all times. I don't thick AG, as smart as he is, could pull this off. This degree of control can work against you very quickly if you get the timing wrong, and push when you should pull.

You should worry about your own investments too -- would it stop at creating dollars if the dollar creationism genie really got loose? Then gold coins would indeed be the only solution left, and ANOTHER would be right after all!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:07
kiwi U>(LGB was right...people stock up on canned goods.) ID#194311:
South Korea cracks down after panic buying leaves shelves bare
SEOUL, Dec 15 ( AFP ) - South Korea on Monday threatened
wholesalers hoarding essential food items here with massive fines
and jail terms as housewives stripped supermarket shelves bare in
fear of price rises.
In an urgent cabinet meeting, prosecutors, tax officials and
other law-enforcement authorities were ordered to curb the panicky
hoarding of sugar, wheat flour and other essential supplies by
wholesalers and companies.
The crackdown came amid growing worries that the won's fall was
rapidly draining stockpiles of grain and other raw materials.
Prosecutors warned that hoarders would face two years
imprisonment or a fine of 50 million won ( 32,000 dollars ) .
Television showed pictures Sunday of bare shelves in
supermarkets across South Korea, which in the past has seen buying
sprees triggered by fears of an attack from North Korea.
Some supermarkets have put up signs saying they would only sell
one of each product per person. Some people are on a buying spree.
We ask that people buy only one of each item, read a sign at one

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:04
OLD GOLD U>(Fidelity) ID#238295:
NEWA: A lot of Fidelity funds have declared distributions recently. FSAGX and FSPMX probably are among them.

The skepticism on this site re: today's gold rally is very encouraging. Sad but true that KITCO has become a contrary indicator. If people on this site get excited by a rally it fades. But when they are sure it will fade -- perhaps not.

While I do not expect a big move up from here near term, those of you looking for another big drop may be disappointed. It is becoming increasingly obvious that very few on this site will be heavily long in the early and most profitable phase of the next gold bull.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:01
Cyclist U>(breakout) ID#339274:
FWIW DEVAALS REEF ( vaaly:NASDAQ ) ready to break out 3 3/8 target 4,
dividend excellent.ASA gave buy signal this morning.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 13:01
D.A. U>(behvioral.patterns) ID#7568:

Silver is behaving 'nicely' now but a lot of money has already been made. If you recall we were slightly below 4.20 in the middle of the summer.

No one is going to ring the bell to tell you when its safe to get back in the water. Sometimes you have to swim with the sharks if you want to feast on the prey. Sometimes you will be the prey. Its all part of the game. Good luck.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:59
Carl U>(@Y2Kbug) ID#333131:
My intent was to question whether Greenspan's partial Goldbugedness is a viable strategy in deflationary times. In an attempt to be cryptic, my question came out as stupid and condescending. Its quite plausible that Greenspan geared his strategy entirely toward inflation without giving much thought to having to head off deflation.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:55
CJS U>(Y2KBug__A; Volcanoes, CFCs and Lyndon LaRouche) ID#328159:
Y2KBug__A remarked that the Mt. Erebus volcano spews more

chlorofluorocarbons ( CFC's ) into the atmosphere each day than mankind

has so far produced in all it's history. Firstly CFCs are complex hydrocarbons which have to be man made in any significant quantity. What volcanoes spew out is things like hydrogen chloride. ( It would be nice to find one that spewed out molten gold, but perhaps someone has since that would explain the falling price better than central bank sales )

This comment about Mt. Erebus appears to be wildly erroneous, as can be seen by referring to CHLORINE IN THE ATMOSPHERE ( ) by Robert Parson, Associate Professor, Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, University of Colorado which says that:

Direct measurements on El Chichon, the largest eruption of the 1980's, and on Pinatubo, the largest since 1912, show that the volcanic contribution is small.

Claims that volcanoes produce more stratospheric chlorine than human activity arise from the careless use of old scientific estimates that have since been refuted by observation.

There is NO support whatsoever for the claim - found in Dixy Lee Ray's _Trashing the Planet_ - that a _single_ recent eruption produced ~500 times as much chlorine as a year's worth of CFC production. This wildly inaccurate number appears to have arisen from an editorial mistake in a scientific encyclopedia.

In an article in _21st Century_ ( July/August 1989 ) , Rogelio Maduro claimed that this Antarctic volcano has been erupting constantly for the last 100 years, emitting more than 1000 tons of chlorine per day. This claim was repeated in Dixy Lee Ray's books. 21st Century is published by Lyndon LaRouche's political associates, although LaRouche himself usually keeps a low profile in the magazine. Mt. Erebus has in fact been simmering quietly for over a century but the estimate of 1000 tons/day of HCl only applied to an especially active period between 1976 and 1983. Moreover that estimate [Kyle et al.] has been since been reduced to 167 tons/day ( 0.0609 Mt/year ) . By late 1984 emissions had dropped by an order of magnitude, and have remained at low levels since; HCl emissions _at the crater rim_ were 19 tons/day ( 0.007 Mt/year ) in 1986, and 36 tons/day ( 0.013 Mt/year ) in 1991. [Zreda-Gostynska et al.] Since this is a passively degassing volcano ( VEI=1-2 in the active period ) , very little of this HCl reaches the stratosphere. The Erebus plume never rises more than 0.5 km above the volcano, and in fact the gas usually just oozes over the crater rim. Indeed, one purpose of the measurements of Kyle et al. was to explain high Cl concentrations in Antarctic snow. The only places where I have ever seen Erebus described as a source of stratospheric chlorine is in LaRouchian publications and in articles and books that, incredibly, consider such documents to be reliable sources.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:55
EB U>(John Disney) ID#22956:
I concur...

This ( current ) rally is what I have been waiting for......yum, put on ANOTHER put spread. Perhaps this will be the last drive into the dirt ( from whence it came ) .....perhaps not......hmmmmmmm...i don't know/care~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

btw JohnD, I am rolling from your last post ( tee, hee ) ....and thanks for the Plat Picks...ohmy

away...from whence he came...


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:53
JTF U>(Gold Rally ) ID#57232:
EB: Thank you -- the voice of reason from a trader who knows false signals. I have jumped in too many false gold rallies -- there is no evidence to me that gold is rallying-yet.

All: We must all think at least intermediate-long term on the buy signal -- more than a one month trend. Think of all the false two month or so gold rallies that we have had in the last few months. Gold should be behaving like silver.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:44
D.A. U>( ID#7568:

The money can be created in infinite quantity in time approaching 0.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:38
JTF U>(Spontaneous generation of money! ) ID#57232:
D.A: I have always wondered about that -- I posted about this last week. First we have Japan increasing their money supply 21% in three weeks, and AG has opened the dollar flood gates since early 1997. With electronic money, just how do we know if anyone is using any rules at all? Just how fast can the powers that be print money? Just how fast can they make it disappear?

All: I don't know why everyone's nerves seem to be so sensitive this morning -- we don't even have any of our Kitcoite disruptors! I am just trying to convince myself that it is time to use some more of my dry powder, or to just hang in there -- no offense to anyone intended! Perhaps we are reaching the bottom of the Kitco well -- and that the gold bull is just about to be launched.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:31
John Disney__A U>(I'm almost always surprised anyway) ID#24140:
to all ( EB )

Ill be really surprised if gold moves up in

a real rally before it has fallen to 480 dmarks.

and come up from that base.

At current exchange rate, thats about 271 $.

But then - do the OPPOSITE -

PS what happened to karlito - who knows-

busy guy - flying - making speeches -

wanking ...

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:30
NEWA U>(FSAGX and FDPMX lower) ID#39133:
Does anyone have a clue as to why both of these funds were trading
lower this morning with gold equities trading moderately higher?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:27
just a gues-timate. They have had enough money & time to come to this figure IMHO. But who knows. Just a guess to help quantify a large oil state's possible holdings ..

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:25
JTF U>(Picking the time of the gold rally -- very difficult, even for the pros. ) ID#57232:
Front: We are all free to choose the time to buy gold/gold stocks -- any time -- no one will prevent you from doing so. I have been burned so many times in the last two years, I can't count anymore. I have learned alot from the Gurus, and am better at investing for it. But, I still don't have the info sources RJ has.

Why don't we all see what we can find about the gold traders, or what G Soros is doing!

Of course, you are right that when the chips are on the table we may not have any of the guru's to ask. Then we are on our own, and I am as used to that situation I think as any on this site. One good indicator by the way is our ability to post. When Kitco is down, beware! That means gold may be going up, or down!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:22
John Disney__A U>(where the water buffalo roam -) ID#24140:
Tan range for tolerant

Impressive stuff from Blanchard. Maybe I

should take more interest in swaziland -

maybe I should move there -

But JCI has a big interest in the swazi

play - it having been theirs in the first

place then farmed out for stock in Tan.

So what happens now with JCI being eaten

alive by a toothless Lonrho - what a way to

go - also a rumour Khumalo may be fired ( for

giving away wes areas )

Found out how to play pm markets - do the

OPPOSITE. If you want to buy - then SELL.

if you want to sell then BUY. remember

do the OPPOSITE. OR if you want to buy

silver then buy GOLD instead. Like NOW.

Also platinum has retested 392.5 so it

can either go up or collapse ( go up please )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:20
D.A. U>(Genesis.II) ID#7568:

First off, let us not confuse fact with speculation. I am only speculating that this will occur.

Second, if it does indeed happen the Fed will get the money from the ether. No messy bonds to float, no assets to liquify, no accounts to draw down. Just the pure and time honored method of creationism.

And on the 17th day of December, Al said, let there be cash. And there was. And Rubin and Hashimoto saw all that He had created and were very pleased.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:17
tolerant1 U>(opps!) ID#31868:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:17
tolerant1 U>( ID#31868:
MARKET UPDATE ( 12/15/97 ) AM-----Gold opened up slightly this morning with Japanese buying in Hong Kong and some Australian producer selling related to the very weak Australian currency. In London and New York this morning there was position squaring by producers and hedge fund short covering in advance of the holidays. There is strong demand in India and tight supplies as the Indian wedding season begins. Bearish factors for gold included continued short speculation by the funds and the strong U.S. dollar. Bullish factors include Swiss National Bank remarks that any sales by Switzerland would be phased over a 10 year period; French, German, and Italian support for a gold backed euro to some degree; healthy investment demand worldwide and mounting mine closures. Some analysts in addition point to limited potential on the short side of the gold market which might force hedge funds to re-assess their bearish stance on gold and begin to reverse their positions. Southeast Asia appears to be entering another round of devaluations and gold demand has taken off again in that part of the world. In Korea over the weekend people lined up at grocery stores and emptied shelves as hyper-inflation gripped the economy. Hong Kong is having a great deal of trouble with everything from a cratering stock market, to a strange killer flu spreading from chickens, to an election next year that could get out of control with pro-democracy not happy at all with the way things are going under communist rule. The long and short of it, is that money is leaving Hong Kong -- symbolic of the growing political and economic crisis in that part of the world. Today the IMF required South Korea to float the won which could cause if more serious problems in that country and the reason for the food and clothing stampede. Simultaneously, Theodore Waigel, the German Finance Minister, declared that the euro would be launched on schedule dealing another potential blow to the dollar as Europe's reserve currency. I do not view the last two weeks of 1997 -- the Christmas season -- to be all that placid. To the contrary, I think it is going to be a tough two weeks going into 1998 and one wonders what the beginning of the new year will bring. More later if warranted. If not have a happy Monday.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:14
Cyclist U>(up) ID#339274:
FWIW XAU on the move to 74.5 today or tomorrow,stops at 67.
Happy trading

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:14
EB U>(...Oh My....) ID#22956:
Selling England by the Pound.........genesis ( great band ) ...bad news in ole blighty~~~~~~~~~~

cha-ching$$!$$~~~~~~~~~~~~good news in Cal drop off some puties ;- )


go gold...go Broncos!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:13
Front U>(JTF) ID#338452:
Dear JTF:
I'm not going to pick a fight with anyone here but please reconsider whether you need others advise to see if it's ok to proceed as you suggested in your post to Vronsky. Many have been wrong here before and no one has been spot on for very long. Waiting for George or RJ or Mike or anyone else to pontificate will be ineffective. They're not here because they're out there, making trades and money. Waiting for them to arrive to justify a feeling might not be the best thing to do. Anyways, they've all been wrong ( as have I ) in the past and past failures do not guarantee future correct reasoning !!! Just a thought .....


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:11
JTF U>(US buys Japanes bonds?) ID#57232:
D.A. : I wonder -- were are we going to get the money for this? Will we just boost our federal debt? 15 trillion and counting, with entitlements.

Another 15 trillion in private/corpoarate debt. Whats another 300 billion for Japanese bonds? I wonder -- did anyone think of asking the American people what they thought? Is congress just going to quietly raise the debt ceiling after we were told we would have a budget surplus this year?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:05
EB U>(JTF r.e. FLOOR TRADER......and gold bottom...) ID#22956:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:03
JTF U>(Gold price rallys in December) ID#57232:
Vronsky: I have montly gold prices to 1900. When I go home, I will see how many times in the last 96 years that gold went up this time of the year. I think we are very near a gold bullion bottom for a number of reasons, but still have most of my powder dry. What I am looking for is a green-light message from RJ or some other precious metals trader, or one of those G Soros/Sir James Goldsmith rumors like the ones we had in the 1993 gold rally. I think we will have a nice rally soon, but I think we would be foolish to think it will be anything like the 70's situation, since we have stable or dropping oil prices, and only a whiff of inflation. Interesting, isn't it the the BLS is going to alter the CPI again! Good thing that they can't cook all of our inflation warning indicators.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:02
World trade organization - the US got what they wanted Market access - they now have what they want - GO GOLD!

This explains why AXP is up, my wife is going to kill me I told her to sell last week.

Goldman Sachs will make more $ now, they got it done. THEY GOT WHAT THEY WANTED!!!!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:00
RCA ( 1925-1929 ) and MICROSOFT ( 1993-1997 )

Neither Ever Paid A Cash Dividend...

Deja Vu All Over Again?! From 1929 to 1932 RCA lost 97% of its market value. Recall RCA was the #1 High-Flying Tech stock of the 1920s. The is an eerie and uncanny historical resemblance here...

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 12:00
Front U>(D.A.) ID#338452:

Oh, that's scarry isn't it! I believe some night call your visions as universal communism .... Where's big brother when you need him eh?


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:55
GFD U>(Salt of the earth) ID#424345:
D.A.: Your 9:15 post is indeed very thought provoking. In fact, they ( from their point of view of course ) would be crazy NOT to undertake such a scheme. Fascinating.

I would just like to add that with all the competative devaluations, etc. that anything manufactured will be very low in cost but anything coming from the earth ( housing, food, resources ) will start to become very dear. Maybe your fund should consider other valuable commodities like farm land, etc....

I have no idea how this exactly will happen but more and more one can see an argument for a two tiered currency system. One for man made things ( computers, cars, software ) and one for natural resources.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:54
Y2KBug__A U>(a.j., re--ozone; Carl, re--Greenspan) ID#234311:
a.j. -- another factor in the lack of ozone over the Antarctic is the nearly constant eruption of the Mt. Erebus volcano, which spews more chlorofluorocarbons ( CFC's ) into the atmosphere each day than mankind has so far produced in all it's history. Also my opinion that sunlight creates more ozone in the upper atmosphere that lightning, but I am open to correction on that one.

Carl: Greenspan may be many things ( some of them unmentionable in a family-oriented forum ) , but one thing he certainly is, he is thorough. To say that he has not thought through an issue dealing with the economy for which he may be responsible is, IMO, a near-impossibility. Whether he is suceptible to pressure to act differently from his convictions is another question.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:51
vronsky U>(?) ID#426220:
JJTF ( Gold bottom? Finally? I might still have some money left somewhere --- I have No idea who he is - I picked up on it from Silver Bull's post.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:51
tolerant1 U>(Frustrated) ID#31868:
Many thanks.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:49
JTF U>(Gold bottom? Finally? I might still have some money left somewhere!) ID#57232:
Silver bull, Vronsky: Who is Floor Trader? Is he/she a precious metals trader? What does RJ think about the news? Last time RJ posted, he was talking about gold $250/oz. I would be very happy to know that RJ has changed his mind, or that floor trader has proof that the bullion traders are buying gold with both hands.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:49
Frustrated U>(Tan Range) ID#298259:
Tolerant1 - Gold Newsletter - by James Blanchard - recommended Tan Range a few months ago and just recently again recommended buying. Some of his thoughts:

Tan Range owns the ground adjacent to Sutton Resources', huge and gowing 5.6 mil oz. Bulyanhulu gold deposit. Many of the same geologic structures on Sutton's ground extend onto Tan Range's concession. Local miners have discovered a rich gold deposit - assaying as high as 3.5 oz per ton - on Tan Range's property. And the first drill results have just
come back, with extraordinary assays as high as 10.07 grams per tonne gold over 10.0 meters, proving TNX has discovered a gold deposit with mineable grades and widths, and strikingly similar to Sutton's huge deposit nearby. Tan Range has locked up a huge exploration concession, the Itetemia, that is 3 times bigger than Sutton's, and surrounds
it on two sides.

If TNX discovers a similar sized deposit on its side of the property line and ends up with a similar market cap, it would transalte into a share price of greater than C$9.5.

The fall-back position with Tan Range is excellent. Not only are there several additional targets along the Golden Horeshoe at Itetemia, but the co is also making significant exploration progress throughout Africa. Tan Range has 9 prime properties locked up in Tanzania, 3 of which are being drilled in just the next few weeks.

Work over the past few years has brought more than 20 premier projects into Tan Range in Zambia, Ethiopia, Swaziland and Eritrea. Blanchard has highly recommended TNX near current price levels.

I've been watching this stock closely, it went from C$0.97 to C$1.85 within a few days after the announcement of drill results, now back to near it's 52wk low. Looks like a good speculative buy.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:47
Bill El Zebub U>(Korean Won) ID#261352:
Korean Won will be allowed to free float effective Tuesday per CNBC.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:42
JTF U>(Saudi gold stocks - impressive!) ID#57232:
Allen ( USA ) : I didn't realize how much gold the Saudi's have. In terms of single-country holdings I think the US is number one, but given the size of our economy and debt it is not enough. I wonder, could the Saudi's have as much gold as the Swiss? Do they use it to back their currency as the Swiss do, or is the Saudi gold more in the form of private holdings?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:40
vronsky U>(GOLD & SILVER UP NICELY... Thank You) ID#426220:

Coming off the brilliant SILVER CALL recently, Mike Sheller shares another insightful and quite possibly prophetic outlook for the stock market and precious metals. “This will be, if nothing else, a stress test of sorts for the stock market. As he sees it, between his calculations and our Jupiterian observations, stocks don't have a chance.” Full view from observatory at:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:38
vronsky U>(DEM'S PRETTY GOOD ODDS!) ID#426220:
Silver Bull: REF Your: FLOOR TRADER: Gold has bottemed in Nov.-Dec. 33 out of the last 35 years before rallying in Jan. and Feb.

DEM'S PRETTY GOOD ODDS! From your lips to HIS ears.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:35
JTF U>(Mcclellan Summation index) ID#57232:
Mike Stewart: Thanks for your input when many of us are getting very worried about our gold investments -- that contrary indicator of Kitco again!

Where did you get your pre 1986 gold stock prices? I have scoured the net and cannot get historical Canadian or South African gold stock prices pre 1986. I know more about the price of gold pre 86 than I do about gold stocks. Thanks in advance

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:29
sweat U>(Allen) ID#23782:
If you want to keep score on CB holdings.
nomercy posting 12 2 97 9:18 Data from Barrons.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:29
Year2000 U>(Oil/Dollar/Gold Link) ID#228100:
A conspiracy certainly exists to link the price of Gold, Oil, and the value of the US Greenspan ( er, I mean Greenback ) .

Say, has anyone seen Elvis around lately? How about JFK?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:24
Silver Bull U>(MISC.) ID#287312:

India's Rupee holding steady for the last week @ 38.50/40.40 to the $US.

Delivery notices today:

Gold: 6

Silver 60

FLOOR TRADER: Gold has bottemed in Nov.-Dec. 33 out of the last 35 years before rallying in Jan. and Feb.

XAU ++1.51 on the highs 8:26 PST.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:19
JTF U>(oil/gold/dollar link - ) ID#57232:
Allen ( USA ) : It is hard to evaluate a secret gold delivery arrangement from the oil consumers to the producers when we have no evidence there is one, and when the price of oil seems to be fully floating in dollars. There would be a stonger argument for a two-tier system ( dollars+gold for the oil producers, and dollars for everyone else ) if the dollar/oil price was fixed in some manner.

I find it more plausible that oil could be used by some countries as a currency for the direct purchase of gold, bypassing the dollar altogether. This may be where the oil/gold commection is being made.

I think the most likely reality in this murky, mysterious link between oil/gold/dollar is that since the 70's the powers that be have found ways to keep the dollar strong so that the oil producers get what they consider fair value. A two-tier system for the dollar, like the situation we had in the 70's with our double gold standard ( double standard - notice the choice of words? ) -- when the dollar was pegged to the dollar, seems unlikely to me. I think we would have heard about it by now.

My guess regarding the recent increase in mideast oil production is that physical demand for oil is dropping, or is expected to drop. This is the reflexive model of G Soros, which says that production actually increases initially in response to reduced demand -- to keep revenues constant. We just saw this with computer memory chips. What worries me is that this is a sign that the Middle East oil producers may be having some financial difficulties. If so, we can expect more turmoil in the middle east very soon, I think. Of course there are other reasons to watch this part of the world. When black gold starts to rise again, I think, gold in US dollars will begin its rally, and the dollar will drop.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:15
Carl U>(Greenspan and gold) ID#333131:
Greenspan on gold: what we know and what we can guess.

We know:

Greenspan was an advocate of a gold standard in the 60’s.

Greenspan, at least since 94 has used the price of gold as an indicator of inflationary expectations. For example from Business Week March 7, 1994. “Federal Reserve Board chairman A Greenspan told a House banking subcommittee on Feb. 22 that gold prices have become an important factor in setting short-term interest rates. Although Greenspan was not signaling a return to the gold standard, his elevation of the metal as a monetary tool is significant....”

We also know that in considering another currency ( the ruble ) in 1990, Greenspan thought a “pure gold standard” would be risky. For example from Forbes Jan. 8, 1990. Speaking of Russia - “Wayne Angell, the governor of the FR, says that a gold standard would be easier and faster to institute than money markets, a central bank, and the other capitalist institutions that make paper money viable. Fed chairman A Greenspan warns that a pure gold standard would be risky, however.”

What we can guess:

Greenspan thinks gold price is important, in that he probably would not like to see it above $450.

He thinks its $ price can be controlled on the up side with interest rate manipulation.

What we don’t know:

Does he think its price on the down side is a deflation indicator?

If so, does he think he can limit its $ price on the down side with interest rate manipulation?

Has he really thought through the implications of easy credit in an environment of over capacity and bank over lending?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:12
Mike Stewart U>(McClellan Summation Index) ID#270253:
My McClellan Summation index for Toronto mining issues finally bottomed on Thursday at -2012. Levels below -2000 are VERY rare in any market, and this should be no different. This will be the momentum bottom, with a possible brief, sharp newer low within a few weeks. The best thing to do here is to make sure that your portfolio has those stocks that you can live with for the intermediate term, and then forget about them for a few months.

Barrick and Vaal Reefs had a selling climax this week. This is defined as hitting a new 52-wk low, then closing up on the week. This often occurs at bottoms in gold mining shares. Too bad that we didn't see a few more of them.

Other metals/mining issues look cheap to me. ( Phelps Dodge/Asarco/Bethlehem Steel/Inco/BHP ) You may want to have a look at them too.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 11:06
Allen(USA) U>(I am kicking myself for stupid calculation errors ..) ID#246224:
The revaluation effect of proposed 1000 Bbl oil for 1 troy ounce ( 31.103 gr ) gold, assuming gold price then rises to matche US$20/Bbl oil.

Saudi stockpile guest-imate 5,000 metric tonnes = 5,000,000,000 GRAMS not ounces. Gold now at US$9.65 per gram revalued by multiple of 66.67 = US$643.37 per gram x 5 Bln grams = US$3.2 Tln.

Germany 2900 metric tonnes = 2.9 Bln grams, revalued to US$1.8 Tln.

USA 8,085 metric tonnes = 8.1 Bln grams, revalued to US$5.2 Tln.

Again, must be noted that the offer itself would revalue gold even if very little gold were actually traded for oil. As long as the offer stood, then 1 ounce gold would equal 1000 times the per Bbl cost in US$.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:58
Internationally acclaimed analyst Gene Inger, is beginning to become interested in GOLD’s prospects. “ doubt the yellow metal is somewhere near at least an interim low point. We view it as a value buy, but not very good as a hedge. As far as gold goes, we prefer stocks to bullion.” His complete intra-week report at:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:53
vronsky U>(TO WHAT DO YOU REFER?) ID#426220:
HREF: Aye Haggis__A ( vronsky...aye take your time...even although it may bbe short... )

TTo what do you refer? GOLD-EAGLE has more than 40 contributing eeconomic and financial analysts from around the world. As Editor in cChief I am obliged to review all before posting. The you have something specific in mind?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:49
Allen(USA) U>(Quick Note to JTF re: 23:05 post - US$ oil float) ID#246224:
US$ price of oil is floating. The proposal to offer oil for gold at say 1000 Bbl/oz is far below the present float price in US$. The gold market is SO SMALL that if the oil nation that made this propsal was pumping enough oil the gold market would be swamped by oil buyers who were looking to make a few ( !! ) US$ on the discrepency in price. In effect this would revalue gold by inserting an entire different group of buyers into the gold market who have ALOT of money.

Why is it the oil nation would not just buy at market? Same as above. Their effect in the open market would basicly shut down the market thereby frustrating their efforts to buy gold. Conversely, why would they then make the proposal? Because either they have enough gold to buy the world at the new price, there is a crisis in which they feel it is to their advantage to do this ( such as a US$ crisis ) or they might have a geopolitical rational.

In the new valuation the US$ would still be intact. But its monopoly role would be altered. Its not that currencies would become worthless but that gold would become worth much more in relationship to paper currencies.

Again, this is just an exploration of ANOTHERs thoughts and posts. I do not necessarily buy the whole story. It is, to me, plausible. But there are many players with competing agendas. Such as the Iranians all of a sudden wanting to talk in dialog, etc. Beware sudden friends ( particularly if they at one time were vicious enemies ) . As to ANOTHER's motivations for posting, who knows but he and maybe he doesn't know either.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:45
Year2000 U>(Let's Go!!) ID#228100:
Why is the price of gold up this morning? Any special political or financial news?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:37
John Disney__A U>(Home home on Tan Range) ID#24140:
For the Badger

Can find nothing on Platexco. Assume small canadian

exploration co with some concession here or Zimbabwe.

They are looking tn the right place.

For tolerant.

You asked about Tan Range

All I know is They acquired a little gold project

in Swaziland from JCI in exchange for 3 mill share

of tan range to JCI. 2.5mill canadian is payable on

completion of bankable feasibility study. Property

has at least 300,000 oz to as much as 700,000 oz.

They also bought Rio Tinto Swaziland for RTZ for

88,000 $ can ( not much hey? ) . If you like Swaziland,

Tan Range sounds like an interesting play but I dont

really care much about Swaziland, one way or the other.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:35
Haggis__A U>(vronsky...aye take your time...even although it may be short...) ID#398105:


The articles that I read posted by yourself are good and VERY informative ( for a Yank.... hope your are not Polish ) . The isuues are there. With respect, why panick.... sh.. happens.

Aye Haggis.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:33
BillD U>(@JTF...SSC) ID#258427:
From Report: ...from 1195 to costs will have declined 40% or more. .... ... over the next three years ..and our average cash costs declining further to about $3.25 over that period

in 1997 they lost .01 per share vs .03 in 1996.


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:32
a.j. U>(@refer@ozone,etc.) ID#256201:
I am an expert on nothing, but have read extensively re: Ozone layer. Can't recall where, but do remember learning that the majority of our ozone is created by lightning strikes. As much as 2000 tons per strike.

The reason there is so little ozone near and above South Pole is the fact no precipitation has fallen in the central antarctic region for eons or millenia. No clouds, no static electricity. Simple ain't it? What snow there is in the center of Antarctica, drifts in on the high winds.

The hole is blown around by the winds and is partly the basis for the Greenies and algorites' belief in the specious global warming theory. As someone else posted not long ago, it has been only a short few years since the socialist alarmists were feeding us scare info re: coming Ice age, ad nauseum. My son in law is in hv/ac also and he believes the s**t as much as you and I do.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:30
JTF U>(I lost alot on money on SSC) ID#57232:
BILLD: When will SSC make a profit? What is their cost basis? Do they have any producing mines in parts of the world experiencing currency devaluations?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:28
JTF U>(South Korean Women donating gold rings during crisis) ID#57232:
Vronsky: That photo someone posted this weekend of the South Korean women donating their gold rings to the SK government says it all! Those worthless gold rings seem to have value, for some mysterious reason. It won't be long before the public educates the central bankers -- begninning in SE Asia. I think the price of gold went up something like 60% in the last week, if priced in South Korean won.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:26
BillD U>(SSC) ID#258427:
Got a 3rd quarter report from SSC today ... interesting ... silver production more than triple from 1995 to 1998 and projected to tripling again to as much as 18 million ounces over then next three years ... that's from 1.7 million ounces to 18 Million in the next 4 years!! Interesting, to say the least!!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:26
Lan Man U>(@Time to Reorg the XAU!!!) ID#320108:
Based upon the following article ( dated March 1997 ) when can we expect the PSE to remove PGU from the XAU Index and replace it with another?



The Dow Jones industrial index, and other U.S. stock indices, are jerry-rigged.

One indication of that, is the little-spoken-of fraud, the Dow Jones divisor.

Originally, the Dow Jones industrial average was computed by summing up the closing prices of the stocks in the index and dividing by the number of stocks.

The sum of the closing prices of the 30 stocks that currently make up the Dow Jones, as of March 12, totalled 2287. Dividing that by 30 would yield an index today of only 76.2, at least as constituted by the old-style index. But the Dow Jones index is no longer computed by dividing by 30, representing the number of stocks. In fact, allegedly to take account of stock splits and substitutions, the sum of the prices of the 30 Dow Jones industrial stocks is divided by a divisor. The divisor has shrunk through the years, falling below 1 in 1986.

Today, the divisor is 0.32482. A divisor of less than 1 becomes, in effect, a multiplier. To illustrate: As stated, as of March 12, the the sum of the stock price of the Dow Jones 30 stocks was 2287; if one divides it by the Dow Jones divisor of 0.32482, this yields a Dow Jones index of 7039, which was the Dow’s closing level on March 12. This fraudulent sleight of hand has been heavily employed to artificially show the Dow Jones industrial index growing since the market crashed in 1987.

On March 12, Dow Jones and Company, which publishes the index, announced that it will drop 4 stocks and add 4 stocks to the index, in an attempt to make the market more post-industrial, and to show even greater speculative rises ( there is also the very significant role of Chicago stock option indices to hold up the market, to be covered in a future briefing ) .

The Dow Jones industrial index is thus pushed up by wild speculation, combined with outright jerry-rigged fraud. While the foolish citizen is lured to think he will make a killing in this market, what will be killed is the citizen’s and his family’s future.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:25
ShortSellr U>(bye-bye) ID#288310:
INTC & CSCO look like good short-sales today? Just a thought. TTFN

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:24
Spud Master U>((Bugs Bunny): You know, of course, this means War...) ID#273112:
HighRise - Many thanks for posting the articles concerning the Evil Empire of Microsloth and Boiiiiinnnnng in cahoots with the State of Washington to limit software contractor pay. Hmmm, tell me again, how much Bill Gates made last year?

Curious how there is no such bill to limit the pay of CEOs ( enormous grin ) , Lawyers ( big grin ) , Doctors ( mild grin - after all, Bill & Hillbillary ARE after them with National Health Care Rape ) or Politicians ( no grin at all ) .

I will only say this to Washington State, Boeing and Microsoft: Do you really want to f**k around with the people who hold your informational balls in their hand?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:24
Frustrated U>(Spot gold up $2.00) ID#298259:
Per Bloomberg 10:20 am report

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:23
BillD U>(XAU...) ID#258427:
Looks like a little accumulation taking place in the Gold Stox...a portent of things to come after tax-loss selling season...!!!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:19
vronsky U>(Southeast Asians Should Heed Advice of Their Ancestors) ID#426220:

The ORACLE of the Orient long absent from our website has returned with a vengeance in his scathing rebuttal of Central Bank spewing that “gold is dead,” that “gold is no longer a hedge against economic and currency chaos,” etc. etc. His succinct and extremely well-documented opinion concludes that Central Bank braying is “RUBBISH, RUBBISH AND MORE RUBBISH.”

The ORACLE proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the only defense southeast Asians had... AND WILL HAVE - against the on-going currency chaos, stock market turmoil and the region’s crumbling bank system is to invest in GOLD. The staunchest and most fanatical anti-GOLDBUGS are obliged to concede to the irrefutable evidence that GOLD is the ONLY SAFE HARBOR vis-à-vis the looming and devastating Domino Effect engulfing the area:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:01
vronsky U>(typos unintentional) ID#426220:
sorry about typos in last posting

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:00
vronsky U>(MY APOLOGY) ID#426220:
S ( ShortSellr ) : I apology for having mis-interpreted what you meant to ssay.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 10:00
ShortSellr U>(vronsky & Loeb) ID#288310:
The only thing I know about Loeb is what I read in his book, and the few pages written about him in 100 Minds that Made the Market. Please tell me what else you know about him. I had no idea he was a legend.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:48
ShortSellr U>(jung) ID#288310:
I bought them from Blanchard 1-800-880-gold for 299.68 when gold spiked to 289/oz on the morning that silver went from 5.50 to 5.85 in London.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:47
HighRise U>() ID#401460:
Date: Sat Dec 13 1997 22:01
Karlito99__A ( Korea, Thailand, not really a problem ) ID#78116:
“All the hand ring about the economic meltdown of Korea is misplaced.
General Electric has a greater market capitalization than the entire stock
markets of Korea, Thailand, and Malaysia.... All these countries could sink into
the pacific ocean and in real terms the global financial system wouldn't even
notice them as missing.”

You are right, however that is why the owners of the Central Banks will not and do not have to sell their Gold unless they want to and I doubt that they do.

GE, NBC, CNBC, MSNBC, Rockefeller Center, Goldman Sachs, Rockefellers, Mexico, Sec. Treasury Robert Ruben, Goldman Sachs, Boeing, President Clinton, Winthrop Rockefeller of Ark. deferment, Health Care, Hillary Clinton, Rockefeller of W VA health care bill sponsor, Standard Oil / BP Oil, John D. Rockefeller, Nelson Aldrich the Fed Reserve, Rothschild, Vice President Nelson Aldrich Rockefeller, Nixon, China, Clinton, China, Hitler Gold & Rockefeller Oil, GE plant in Mexico, Etc. Etc.

Who has majority stock control of General Electric? Who really has control of US Gold - the US Congress? SURE
GE ( General Electric ) = Malaysia+Indonesia+Philippines+Korea+Thailand
CNBC/ Barons

By the way GE owns NBC and CNBC.

Just received this e-mail - just another example of who rules.

In case you haven't heard about this, or if you've only gotten part of the
information here's the low-down on a change in legislation which will
affect many of us if it goes through. Please contact Washington State L&I
( ) before Dec 19 to give feedback on this change.

( Feel free to forward this information but remove my name and address. )

HOUSE BILL 2209 exempts from overtime pay ( time and a half ) : Any employee
who is: ( i ) A computer systems analyst, a computer programmer, a software
engineer, or another similarly skilled worker; and ( ii ) who is compensated
on an hourly basis at a rate of not less than six and one-half times the
federal minimum wage.

This is an industry attempt to regulate pay rates of computer
professionals, from developers to technical writers and everything
in-between. The legislation is backed by Boeing and Microsoft as well as
the WSDMA ( the Washington Software and Digital Media Alliance ) . Agencies
around the Puget Sound area were not informed of the pending change and
nothing was published in the local media ( The Seattle Times ) until after
the public comment period had closed.

There has been a lot of discussion going on in Seattle via email right now.
Labor & Industries reopened the comment period until the 19th of December.
Contract workers are not yet organized and are discussing the options of
forming a union or a guild.

Related Links:

Temporary software workers to lose OT

Software temps gain time to fight OT changes

Info from WA State Dept of L&I

HOUSE BILL 2209 as posted on the WA Legislature Site>

WA Legislature Site


I just want to be around when they are ready to move Gold UP, and they will when they have what they want.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:45
ShortSellr U>(vronsky) ID#288310:
I was only attempting to highlight the idea that mining shares can do well in a deflationary environment, such as the 1930's. Bach then they were against diversification and all for buying 1 or 2 stocks with correct timing. Also, always ready to sell stock at a moments notice. Keynes's successful approach to the market in the 30's of taking heavy positions in only 5 stocks was not contrarian thinking as it would be today, but reflected the investment outlook of the times.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:43
oldgoldpanner U>(nuggets) ID#197289:
To Mike:

My experience of this is from the 70's and the Yukon but may be within

the ballpark today.

The larger the nugget the higher the price.

Small nuggets and large flakes could be easily sold to the jewellers in

Whitehorse for decorating watch bands and pendants for 50% over spot without an assay.

The largest nuggets I found where about the size of your little fingernail. The gold ranged from flour to that size. I sold it to

the University of Toronto geological department for 25% over spot which

was my asking price and could have been I think higher. They used it as

a teaching specimen for place gold.

Larger nuggets the size of your other fingernails are probably double to triple spot to jewellers.

Anything larger than that would be specimen class - I don't know prices but they would be higher.

Does that help at all?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:43
vronsky U>(PLATINUM A to Z) ID#426220:
Notnick: All you ever wanted to know about Platinum and Platinum Stocks you may find via the following. Go to the URL indicated below. Once there find the hot-wired strip banner at the bottom of the HOT NEWS BOX. Just CLICK on Search Gold-Eagle. Then type in the little window the word, platinum, and Click SEARCH. 40 items will come up -- all about PLATINUM. Just click away and be enlightened:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:38
Jung U>(ShortSeller) ID#237164:
How and where did you buy the eagles ... what premium did you have
to pay? Thanks ... I am at

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:31
vronsky U>(THE BATTLE FOR INVESTMENT SURVIVAL by Gerald M. Loeb) ID#426220:
REF: ShortSellr ( What the books say ) Comment:

The Battle for Investment Survival, by Gerald M. Loeb, written in 1935, was very positive about mining shares in Chapter 27 Merits of Mining Shares. I think this guy will eventually be right too.

Your comment smacks of unwarrented sarcasm, and perhaps a slight distain for books per se.! My first impulse was to react in kind. On second thought I realized you know nothing of the Wall Street Giant, Gerald Loeb, and that your total lack of knowledge of the Gold Mining history is ENCYCLOPEDIC. Therefore, may I respectfully suggest reading something to bring you abreast of the potential for gain in Gold Mining Shares... assuming, of course, you do not ALREADY KNOW everything:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:27
badger U>(@ John Disney) ID#261118:
John, know anything about a Canadian co. sitting smack in the middle of the Platinum belt there in RSA known as Platexco? Bob Bishop has mentioned them though non-officially as a stock he's very interested in.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:25
Tg U>(Pegasus Gold) ID#374294:
I saw that Pegasus had a book value of $8/share.....lots of assets ( I hope they can hang on ) I really think gold is going to explode sometime in the next 748 days. If the Asian crisis doesn't eventually send gold throught the roof...the y2k crisis will. IMHO.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:25
xau5 U>(PGU) ID#201131:
The only way they wouldnt go bankrupt would be a huge surge in gold soon. That might cause someone to take a shot at the mine they just shut down in Australia.Otherwise their creditors are probably going to
push for a plan that would not be kind to shareholders. bye

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:23
golddkm U>(Platinum producers) ID#432148:

Anglo American Platinum AAPTY

Impala Platinum IMPAY

These are large producers of platinum.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:22
JOE Smith U>(where is silver headed ?) ID#24869:
squeeze or shortage

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:22
ShortSellr U>(Pegasus Gold PGU) ID#288310:
Anyone think PGU won't go bankrupt?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:20
Stalder U>(Good Morning) ID#286410:
South Africa JSE ALL GOLD going up gradually ( +9.9 @ +1.45% )
and Globex ( S&P 500 ) has been moving lower,now at +290.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:18
tolerant1 U>(D.A.) ID#31868:
The Fox is guarding the hen house. All is well? Not!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:15
D.A. U>( ID#7568:

Looks like the Japanese have found the answer to what ails us all. Issue more bonds. After all, if someone is willing to lend you money at 1.7 percent for 10 years, why not. Perhaps the US fed will buy a big load. This way we can return the favor the Japanese have done for us.

It would look a little unseemly if the Japanese chose to sell US bonds and the Fed printed cash to redeem them. Some of the other US bond holders might get the idea that we were monetizing the debt, and that it might not be such a grand idea to continue to be faithful bondholders. However, if the Fed makes a well thought out 'investment' in newly created Japanese bonds, well then who could complain.

This charade can actually go on as long as the central bankers wish. It used to be said that the CB's could control the short end of the curve and that the long end was determined by market forces. I am having second thoughts. Since the CB's are hell bent on buying up each others bonds with freshly minted electrons it appears that they are looking to set rates everywhere. The rates that they will set will be low indeed. After all, they are the debtors.

We could be entering the most bizarre phase of the modern history of money and credit. Imagine a world in which interest rates are very low across the board. Imagine a world where the inflation statistics so carefully prepared by government, seem to indicate that there is very little if any inflation. ( Last week it was announced that the BLS was probably going to change the CPI formulae a little bit for 1998 which would eliminate some 'statistical bias' and would likely knock down the 'inflation' rate 30-40 basis points ) Then imagine a world where the average price of a house, food, clothing, medical care, and transportation become hugely expensive, but computers are very cheap.

Let'em eat bits.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:12
tolerant1 U>(Mike Sheller) ID#31868:
I stick to coins. But thanks for the offer.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:10
6pak U>(All is well @ Corporate Japan, Just ask the experts, Business helping Business) ID#335190:
December 15, 1997
FOCUS-Japan LDP urges finance, tax steps

TOKYO, Dec 15 ( Reuters ) - A key panel of Japan's ruling party on Monday urged the government to cough up 10 trillion yen ( $76.3 billion ) worth of bonds to stabilise the financial system, a move analysts said was welcome but would not solve all the sector's woes.

The panel also called for a drastic cut in taxes on income from land sales, advocated cutting or scrapping the securities transaction tax, and urged the government to make available 12 trillion yen ( $91.6 billion ) in low-interest loans for small firms suffering from a credit crunch as banks reduce lending.

Others said the plan appeared to avoid the worst dangers of a moral hazard born of a policy whereby public money would be used for wholescale rescues of mismanaged financial firms.

Fresh data unveiled on Monday showed that corporate sentiment fell deep into the doldrums, confirming fears that the economy was sliding into recession and begging for support.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:10
John Disney__A U>(Serious Platinum stocks) ID#24140:
For Notnick

If you are really serious about platinum

stock try.

1. Amplats ( old rustenberg+pp rust+lebowa )

2. Impala platinum

3. Northam ( for strong nerves )

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:07
vronsky U>(PLATINUM STOCK) ID#426220:
Notnick & tolerant1: Dines likes Stilwater Mining. Once at his page, CLICK the word STILWATER - and its chart will be displayed.


Internationally acclaimed newsletter editor, James Dines, shares his “LATEST ON GOLD.” Additionally, he calls attention to two of his favorite precious metals stocks: Agnico-Eagle and Stillwater Mining - both are hot-wired to their charts, just CLICK the name. It is also obvious analyst Dines cottons to silver:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 09:06
STUDIO.R U>(@LADIES (if there are any) and GENTLEMEN....GOOD DAY!) ID#93232:
As a result of the philosophical battle that bloodily occured on this cyber plain this very weekend and due to the injuries I, myself, sustained; I must tell you now:


TORT...a damn good joke...I am taking it now to my office where I pump oil to give it away...and awwaaayyy I go.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 08:59
tolerant1 U>(notnick) ID#31868:
Stillwater Mining - SWC

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 08:54
notnick U>(Platinum Producers) ID#382205:
Can anyone recommend a good platinum stock?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 08:37
Mike Sheller U>(Nuggets anyone?) ID#347447:
AURIC, NICKatC, EVERYONE: Re nuggets, our 2 Alaska claims are placer mines, so the product is nugget gold. Just an informal market survey if you please ( I DO have a business to help run, I can't make a living reading yer Horoscope you know ) , and ALL Kitcoites welcome to chime in of course, : How much over spot as a premium would you be willing to pay for a real, honest to goodness, from the ground mother nature placer gold nugget, as the Lord intended it to look and feel in yer hand? Numbers please. I will do the tally later. Thanks all.

There ARE strange things done 'neath the midnight sun, By the men who moil for Gold.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 08:26
ShortSellr U>(What the books say) ID#288310:
The Battle for Investment Survival, by Gerald M. Loeb, written in 1935, was very positive about mining shares in Chapter 27 Merits of Mining Shares. I think this guy will eventually be right too.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 08:22
tolerant1 U>(TED) ID#31868:
kjngjnskngk, jngskjkfu, thu, thu, puvvdjsdn, you are oh so right.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 08:22
Carl U>(@home) ID#333131:
Oil strong, $, Dmark, gold and silver up. Things are getting bleaker for Asia. Mexico next?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 08:20
Ted U>(Tolerant1) ID#364147:
@ least 'our Giants' are NFC East champs and nobody can take that away!!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 08:12
tolerant1 U>(TED) ID#31868:
Mfkljdsn, fufaudau,mngfn, rjskjtjhht, thu, thu, thu, Not golden!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 08:10
tolerant1 U>(Hmmmmm) ID#31868:
Monday December 15, 7:21 am Eastern Time

OECD report sees U.S. rate hike despite Asian woes

By Adam Entous

WASHINGTON, Dec 15 ( Reuters ) - The Federal Reserve will need to lift U.S. interest rates by a half-percentage point before next spring to keep the economy on course despite the growing financial crisis in Asia, the OECD said on Monday.

``While there are reasons to believe that activity will soften on its own at this late stage in the business cycle, the OECD secretariat's assessment is that the economy has enough forward momentum that it will not slow to a sustainable pace unless some exogenous factor comes into play,'' the Paris-based Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development ( OECD ) said in its December 1997 economic outlook report.

Federal Reserve policy makers will meet on Tuesday. But experts said market turmoil in Asia would prompt the U.S. central bank to leave U.S. interest rates unchanged.

The Fed last changed monetary policy on March 25, when it lifted the federal funds overnight lending rate by a quarter-percentage point to 5.5 percent.

The OECD, in a report intended for publication on December 17 but released early because of embargo breaks, described the economic performance of the United States as ``exceptional.''

This year, the economy would grow at 3.8 percent, the fastest rate among the group's seven largest member countries, it said. Real incomes were up sharply and equities markets were showing ``continued surprising strength,'' the Paris-based agency said.

Despite this strong growth, wage and price inflation have remained surprisingly tame, the report said. With productivity growing at its fastest pace since 1992, labour cost increases have been contained, it said, and producer prices have even declined.

Nevertheless, the OECD said the U.S. economy would not slow down on its own, and inflation was bound to pick amid increasingly tight Labor markets.

``Overall, with the unemployment rate well below the OECD secretariat's view of its structural rate, and favourable supply factors expected to dissipate, short-term rates are assumed to need to rise by 1/2 percentage point by next spring,'' the OECD said.

In response to the forecast increase, long-term rates may increase sharply, the OECD warned.

``The projected interest rate increases should begin to bite at the same time as the impetus to spending from higher wealth wanes,'' the OECD said.

The group sees U.S. growth slowing to around 2.7 percent in 1998 and 1.9 percent in 1999. It said the unemployment rate would edge down to 4.7 percent in 1998, but said joblessness would swell to 5.0 percent in 1999.

The report noted two scenarios that could throw off the OECD forecast.

Demand could slow on its own as consumers raise their saving rates and businesses require less investment, it said.

``The deterioration in economic conditions in Asia and elsewhere could also be greater than projected, further limiting export demand,'' the report said.

Alternatively, the economy could continue to grow at an unsustainable pace, straining available resources even more.

``Substantial wage and price inflation could emerge as the unemployment rate heads lower, and the monetary authorities would have to raise interest rates more forcefully, slowing the economy sharply,'' the OECD said. But it said the second scenario was ``probably somewhat less likely'' than the first

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 08:09
Ted U>(@ TORT) ID#364147:
Tort: Thankx for the mornin joke ( s ) but the evening 'joke' will be when yer 49ers get pounded by the Broncos~~~~~~Hope ya have a good day till then!!....Tolerant1: How does it taste

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 08:05
tolerant1 U>(TED) ID#31868:
Absolutely, Gold $400 and DOW 5000 by the 14th of December. No doubt about.

With all the grief I hand out I deserve center stage at the house of pain.

I stand before you all, humiliated, red faced and shoe planted firmly in mouth.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:58
Ted U>(@ Tolerant1 and PWN) ID#364147:
Mornin bro---am very familar with PWN but thankx....Everthing is bought on credit here as the yocals are so irresponsible with money that they can't equate credit cards to money spent and are constantly gettin into trouble with em but luckily ( ) for us the gov'ment is continually giving courses ( pathetic ) on how not to abuse your credit cards....P.S. Are you still callin fer gold 400 + Dow 5,000 on DECEMBER 15th ( asked tongue-in-cheek and not maliciously ) ....

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:57
ShortSellr U>(tolerant1) ID#288310:
The Great Reckoning was a great read as long as you didn't act on it. After I read it, I lost $5000 in expired OEX put options, and bought over $20000 worth of gold at $410/oz. I panic-sold the gold at $395.

However, this year I made $20,765 on my $1606 worth of put options on 10/27/97, and I am putting almost all of that in gold and silver stocks, and gold coins.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:53
JTF U>(Got to go to work!) ID#57232:
tolerant1: I also agree with you that the TGR scenario will eventually come true. Problem is -- it could be the next century before it comes true in the US. One can predict things like the TGR with confidence as that is the Kondratiev wave -- which no one can escape. Problem is -- the when cannot be reliably predicted, even with the ElNino and SEAsia.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:50
ShortSellr U>(Goldbug23) ID#288310:
I most heartily agree with you. I sold all my non-PM stock last Thursday and bought 22 gold-eagles. Also bought 100 shs CDE @ 7 1/16 on 12/9

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:48
tolerant1 U>(ShortSellr) ID#31868:
I think the blueprint in TGR was accurate. There are many items covered in the book. In addition it is difficult to predict how governments, banks and security houses will cover their collective backsides.

In terms of what was stated in the book and the trends which were explored I think the book has been spot on. They did take the out of speculating on the 90s and in that regard your comment has weight.

However I think the book has a tremendous amount of information in its pages and the past 12 months look very much like they are now in lockstep with the books message and predictions.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:47
Donald__A U>(ASEAN wants IMF to stabilize Asian currencies (How?)) ID#26793:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:45
Tortfeasor U>(Joke of the morning) ID#36965:
With gold and silver heading in the right direction this morning, perhaps a joke might be in order to get the week off to the proper start.

Sven and Olie chartered a plane with a pilot to drop them off
in the wilds of Alaska for a week of elk hunting, just the same
as they did the year before.

When the pilot returned with the plane Sven exclaimed joyfully
to the pilot, We had a great hunting trip! We bagged four elk!

The pilot regretfully explained, Unfortunately, our plane can
only fly with the weight of two elk. You'll have to leave the other
two behind.

Sven and Olie were both infuriated and insistent. We won't
allow you to fly this plane out without all four elk, Olie

The eager to please pilot relented and the plane took off with
the three of them and their four elk. About fifteen minutes into
the flight the engine started to sputter, and within seconds they
were hurtling to the ground.

Wearily arising from the wreckage, Sven looked at Olie and
wheezed, Do you have any idea where we are?

Olie, quite pleased with himself, replied, Yes! We're about a
mile from where we crashed last year.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:44
Goldbug23 U>(The Great wreakening :-)) ID#432148:
SHORTSELLR: Yes, the odds are some day Rees-Mogg will be right. When? No one knows the future. But then, every dog has his day in the sun, and the sun is golden. I am sticking with my insurance and am not a trader. Ingotwetrust.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:44
JTF U>(Dollar still going up? Gold going down? -- Very likely.) ID#57232:
All: Sure looks like the US dollar is still going up. Don't understand why, given weakening economic indicators such as lacluster Christmas sales, and a less than lively stock market. There is a real possibility gold is going down some more as RJ predicts. The technicals still suggest this, though our irrepressible gold bug hearts believe otherwise. My gold bug heart still gets in the way of reality. Unfortunately the price of gold is whatever the market tells us it is.

We already have alot of unhappy people in SEAsia. They will be alot more unhappy if their currencies are still pegged to the dollar. Regardless, a dollar rise could trigger another rash of competitive devaluations. I wonder -- where will Japan put the line in the sand? They can't continue to devalue the Yen and weaken the dollar at the same time, or can they?

By the way -- mid america ( farmers ) is just noticing that the demand for farm goods -- grains, etc. is starting to drop. We always think that demand for food is inelastic because it is one of those defensive items. But we are not the ones pricing them in dollars, and choosing cheaper sources. Dropping commodity prices always seem to put a dent in gold, even at these firesale prices. We are already at pre-1993 gold/commodity price ratios. I keep telling myself gold is a bargain, buy some, only to watch it drop some more. Gold is a bargain, but we have to be careful not to deplete our savings buying it -- even bullion coins. I want something left for the gold stock bull market to come.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:41
vronsky U>(ASTROLOGICAL INVESTOR - December 15, 1997) ID#426220:
Coming off the brilliant SILVER CALL recently, Mike Sheller shares another insightful and quite possibly prophetic outlook for the stock market and precious metals. “This will be, if nothing else, a stress test of sorts for the stock market. As he sees it, between his calculations and our Jupiterian observations, stocks don't have a chance.” Full view from observatory at:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:35
ShortSellr U>(PWN) ID#288310:
When I first read THE GREAT RECKONING, the DJIA was under 5000, and gold was over US$400.00/oz. Maybe it'll be right eventually?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:34
Donald__A U>(@Kitco) ID#26793:
I heard a TV report from Hong Kong early this morning saying that Indonesia was likely to declare a debt moratorium. Nothing on the net yet.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:31
Donald__A U>(Philoppine banker says many corporate failures imminent) ID#26793:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:30
tolerant1 U>(TED) ID#31868:
You should take a peek at a stock Cash America PWN, I came across this in The Great Reckoning. They have hundreds of pawn shops in the US.

I think their business will go way up when all the credit purchased merchandise needs to be sold for cash.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:23
Ted U>(@ Cape Breton) ID#364147:
Good mornin all! Panda: It's pretty hard to relate to the use of credit cards @ the!---see that alot here too....Feb.Gold up .60 and I see the 'head' of Malaysia is makin a fool of himself again!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:22
vronsky U>(ASIA BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARDSPOT (December 15, 1997)) ID#426220:
The ORACLE of the Orient long absent from our website has returned with a vengeance in his scathing rebuttal of Central Bank spewing that “gold is dead,” that “gold is no longer a hedge against economic and currency chaos,” etc. etc. His succinct and extremely well-documented opinion concludes that Central Bank braying is “RUBBISH, RUBBISH AND MORE RUBBISH.”

The ORACLE proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the only defense southeast Asians had... AND WILL HAVE - against the on-going currency chaos, stock market turmoil and the region’s crumbling bank system is to invest in GOLD. The staunchest and most fanatical anti-GOLDBUGS are obliged to concede to the irrefutable evidence that GOLD is the ONLY SAFE HARBOR vis-à-vis the looming and devastating Domino Effect engulfing the area:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:21
tolerant1 U>(JTF) ID#31868:
I think everything worldwide revolves around the devalutation of the dollar. Personally I think that much is lost by those who read the various pieces penned on the race to devalue currencies around the globe.

The ultimate currency - gold and silver, will rise against all paper money and at the present time the holders of US dollars are making a grave error in my opinion by not buying as much of the metals as they can prudently afford.

Given that one could accumulate physical metal over time and take a slow and deliberate path to purchasing mining shares there will be horror stories of those that leverage to acquire options and such in the hope of getting rich quick.

People that poked fun at the credit card holders who bought into the equity market will be some of those that make the same error when they eye the riches to be made in the metals turn around. Don't sell the farm to invest in anything.

By taking a slow, methodical approach to the metals one can enough money to satisfy many needs for years to come.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:08
JTF U>(Good morning all! Gold up in some currencies, down in others.) ID#57232:
Producer: Why not focus on gold mining incountries where the price of gold is steady or going up? What is it that I don't know?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 07:02
tolerant1 U>(John Disney) ID#31868:
Morning, I am interested to find out if you are familiar with Tan Range Exploration. JCI was a 15% shareholder but I am not sure of the final shakeout as the company seems to be getting out of the gold mining business.

Curious if you have eyed this company before.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 06:57
John Disney__A U>(is there a meadow in the mist ) ID#24140:

I must not be making myself clear.

Of course Lihir has nothing to do with ABX.

Im sure I did not say that as even small

children and maybe dogs know better. I gave

lihir as an example of a mine with assumed

low operation costs BUT OTHER ASSOCIATED

costs that were much higher than western Areas.

I dont think I said rsa average were HIGH -

My god my my point has been that they are

LOW relative to cash costs - while NA mines

are HIGH relative to cash costs -

Please go back and re read my posts - perhaps

you are speed reading them - slow down a little.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 06:52
tolerant1 U>(Switch out of gold for silver?) ID#31868:
Monday December 15, 4:53 am Eastern Time

Europe gold opens up but top seen limited to $285

ZURICH, Dec 15 ( Reuters ) - Gold opened 95 cents higher in Europe in what traders said was mainly a technical correction after 18-year lows last week.

Gold opened at $283.25/283.65 after closing at $282.30/282.80 in London on Friday.

Volume was thin and any impulses would likely have to wait for the U.S. market to open.

Traders said gold was still limited on top at $285 by continued fears of future central bank sales as well as worries that Asia's financial crisis could dampen demand.

``The sentiment on the market is still very negative,'' one Zurich-based trader said.

Silver opened five cents at $5.94/96 as demand from institutional investors switching out of gold led the metal to test psychological resistance at $6.00.

Traders said the next point upwards would be at $6.20. Support was seen at $5.88/5.90.

Platinum and palladium both remained under pressures, mainly from worries of an economic downturn in major market Japan.

Platinum opened four dollars lower at $357.00/359.00.

Palladium was at $196.00/198.00, $3.50 off Friday's close.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 06:50
tolerant1 U>(The US$, Who loves ya baby.) ID#31868:
Monday December 15, 5:49 am Eastern Time

ASEAN orders study of U.S. dollar's primacy

KUALA LUMPUR, Dec 15 ( Reuters ) - Southeast Asian leaders have asked their finance ministers to study the implications of curtailing the predominance of the U.S. dollar in global finance, Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad said on Monday.

Mahathir told a news conference during the second day of a summit in the Malaysian capital that leaders of the Association of South East Asian Nations ( ASEAN ) ``discussed the primacy of the U.S. dollar in international dealings.''

``Some of us are of the view that there should not just be one currency, there could be other currencies, and among them we mentioned the euro and the yen,'' Mahathir said.

``This again is something that we need to study closely to understand what would be the implication if we have more than one international currency,'' he said.

``So that was a matter that was discussed, but no conclusion was made, no decision was made except to ask our ministers of finance to study the implication of having some other currency as an international currency.''

Mahathir spoke after the leaders of the nine-member ASEAN met their counterparts from China, Japan and South Korea. Earlier on Monday, ASEAN leaders said they were deeply concerned about the continued weakness of their currencies against the U.S. dollar.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 05:41
Nick@C U>(Producer) ID#393224:
One day soon it will be worth getting that stuff out of the ground again. Hopefully you'll still have the time to pass on some of your hard-earned wisdom at this site. We appreciate hearing from people with a few calluses and dirt under their fingernails. Too many back-seat drivers around. Cheers from down under.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 05:06
Producer U>(hanging In there...) ID#226355:
Nick- I have spent a good deal of time lately with other miners and hanging is not something we speak lightly of. A local bank has already turned down financing to a long time miner with a great track record. The project was a good one, easy logistics, great reserves,etc.; the sticking point was that worthless stuff, gold. Now this is from a financial institution that has a long time relationship with the resource industry. After 17 years of digging it looks like this might be it for me and my comrades. If gold does not recover soon we will be an endangered species. Unfortunatley, we do not come under the protection act.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 04:55
Nick@C U>(Globex) ID#393224:
Globex S & P up
French Franc down big

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 04:53
Skylark U>(A belated reply from the bird in the sky) ID#93130:
JOHN DISNEY: Thanks for the information on Western Areas. It appears you believe Lihir is a Barrick venture. If so, this is in error and your critical comments are misdirected. The source of your information may be confused with Battle Mountain which has an interest in the project.

I note with interest your comments on how cash costs are calculated in RSA and your comparison to NA costs. Cash operating costs calculated by NA producers include site costs for all mining, process and administration but exclude ryoalties, taxes, depreciation, reclamation, financing costs, capital costs and exploration expenses. However, I have not been able to gleem from financial reports of RSA companies I own, including Harmony and Durban Deep, how they calculate their cash costs, and my attempts to obtain such information by questioning their staff have been rejected.

But your conclusion that cash costs are more then the NAs only due to inclusion of capital costs is seemingly at odds with a recent statement by Mr. Swanepoel of Harmony. Swanepoel stated: while South African mines are among the world's most expensive in terms of production costs, their low cash costs, particularly compared with the North Americans, meant they were competitive on total costs. His statement is also not in accord with media reports on RSA mine cash costs. However he does support your view of comparable total costs, and perhaps he did not include capital costs in his cash cost definition which may account for the difference in cash cost valuation.

ABX's total production cost in their 96 annual report is listed at US$253, which is better than I have seen out of RSAs. As far as net profits, I know nothing of Western Areas profits, but for purpose of argument, I will accept your statement that net profits of ABX and Western Areas are about the same. But, a lot goes into the bottom line such as exploration expenses which contribute to growth so it is not a proper comparison to merely look at the bottom line. ABX has enjoyed a large valuation based on its growth profile, the quality of its reserves, cash flow and management, among other factors.

But, it is not my intent here to justify wny ABX should be higher valued then Western Areas or other RSA miners. Suffice to say, the market recognizes greater value in ABX and that is why it is priced the way it is, notwithstanding your continuous carping of comparable valuation. And the market, which also includes subjective investor sentiment, sets the price.

IMO RSA's are indeed attractive as a commodity play by offering a cheap leap call on gold. Those mines who survive should do spectacularly well when gold improves, particularly non-hedgers which have been severely beaten down such as Harmony and Durban. It is only for this reason that I have a relatively small interest in a few. But, in general, I would not invest in them to improve in the current low-priced gold environment by continuing to expand their asset base, such as ABX, Ashanti, Newmont et al. You obviously think differently - and for your sake - as well as mine for the RSA companies I own - I sure hope you are right. Good luck!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 04:53
Auric U>(What Would You Do For A Klondike Bar) ID#255151:

Fascinating stuff about the Klondike. The Cremation of Sam McGee by Robert W. Service comes to mind. There are strange things done 'neath the midnight sun, By the men who moil for Gold. The arctic trails have their secret tales, That would make your blood run cold. The northern lights have seen queer sights, But the queerest they ever did see. It was on the marge at Lake leBarge, they cremated Sam McGee.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 04:47
Nick@C U>(Goldbug's vacation.) ID#393224:

Have a friend who just drove through this area. Too beautiful for words.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 04:35
Nick@C U>(Chilkoot Trail) ID#393224:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 04:32
Nick@C U>(The golden stairs) ID#393224:
Stay in line, folks. Don't give up.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 04:25
Nick@C U>(Auracious/Producer) ID#393224:
Auracious--enjoyed your Klondike post of last evening. Here is a huge source of info for those with gold fever ( like moi ) .

Producer--just pretend you're taking the first load up Chilicoot pass. Dead horses and exhausted miners everywhere. You are frostbitten and have had nothing but wet biscuits in days. Hope you hang in there.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 04:06
Nick@C U>(Auric) ID#393224:
G'day Auric. Are you knee-deep in snow yet. Did you see the news of the Mexican snowfalls Worst in three million years or sumpthin'!! Thanks for cheering me up, mate. I know the stuff ( PM's ) is cheap. I just don't like the wait for the turnaround. Long-term I think we shall look back and congratulate ourselves for our perspicacity. Just don't like the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune in the meantime.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 04:00
Auric U>(Gold) ID#255151:

Nick@C --One more thought. I am holding my Maple Leaf right now. I can just imagine what that Golden Nugget looks like. It defies logic, eh? I can't remember who the Kitco poster was, but the comment about it not being of this world expressed my own feelings. The way I see things unfolding in the world, having some Gold and Silver on hand may prove of more use than just its beauty.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 03:58
Producer U>(Yukon Picture Book) ID#226355:
Aurator- Did anyone tell you the name of your picture book with the photo of the men climbing the pass? The picture is a famous one and appears in many places. The Centennial was quite a celebration up here this year.
Since we are giving weather reports -20C Fairbanks, Alaska.
I sincerly do hope you develop a good cricket team in NZ. I spend a great deal of time down there each year depending on how much gold I get out and have gotten quite attached to watching the game. This years production will let me come down for a while as I am looking quite smart having sold everything in August. Unfortunatley at the present price levels I fear that I will be one of the mines out of production this coming season.

Hoping for a glimmer.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 03:55
Nick@C U>(fried chicken) ID#393224:
Cut it out, Auracious, you're making me hungry. Hope paradise sells soon. Would be a good time to load up on certain worthless metals, no? How do you like the price of platinum? Japanese must be unloading their jewellery to prop up their banks/brokerage houses.

I am usually an optimist. If you have teenage children you have to be. For some reason I can't quite discern, I think the world is in big trouble. I don't like the Korean situation AT ALL!!!! North starving and South bankrupt. Big trouble ahead, mate. Think I'll go play with my 'precious'.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 03:48
Auric U>(Gold) ID#255151:

G'day all. Nick of Canberra--I know what you mean, mate. I have been buying gold shares for the last year or so. As the price has dropped, I have bought more heavily. This time period reminds me of the 1980-1982 years when I was buying stock mutual funds. Stocks were the worst investment one could have owned from 1966-1982. EVERYONE was negative toward the market in the summer of '82 when the Dow troughed at about 750. Those who held on were more than amply rewarded over the following years. My belief and strategy is that we are in a similar situation with respect to PM investments. These thoughts are from a laymen, not an economist or investment professional, so put this in the FWIW column. In wisdom or folly, I am going to stick with my gold and silver holdings, just as I did with stocks back in the early '80's. Good luck, my friend.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 03:28
aurator U>(19ºC {66ºF) now, BarbQ over ---don't ya just hate antipodean christmas?) ID#257148:
Nick@C I have been tracking JM's quote erratically ( like most days man ) and have noticed only slight easing of gold price in $NZ. Have just shown BJ the charts at, which helped to explain how our paper savings ain't quite as good as the golden ones. She is good, this 'un. keep me on my metal, and mettle.

och aye, it's good to be a goldbug


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 03:23
newtron U>(EB-RE FROGGY FRANC) ID#335184:
IMHO this is market's reaction to 35 hr. work week by fabian gov. and not the asian slough.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 03:19
Nick@C U>(Swan dive) ID#393224:
Aussie $$$ doing a swan dive the last few days. Would you believe the price of gold went up very nicely today Actually the A$$ went down below 66¢ for the first time in a long while, which made the price of gold look good from down-under. DJ--your gold/currency chart hit the nail on the head. Gold IS NOT going down in price. The US$$ is going UP. Just don't holiday in America or buy anything made in America and everthing is just fine. Dang if a holiday in Bali isn't cheap right now!!!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 03:18
EB U>(it is Foghorn Leghorn) ID#22956:
Not leghorn foghorn.....and I like those swim-trunks you're wearing.....did you get a bowl of soup with that ( Caddyshack, Rodney Dangerfield ) .

away...uh huh

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 03:12
EB U>(OUCH) ID#22956:
I would hate to be holding F-francs right now......down 400 ticks.....are they catching the contagian that is talked about and is/will be spreading wide and fast throughout the world Does anyone know the reason for the large drop?

night all catch some zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz's


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 03:09
aurator U>(gold-bug pancake) ID#257148:
Actually, Nick, being only slightly less facetious, I am constantly reminded of the mincer this gold-market has become. I am so glad I am just a golden foghorn ( thanks Éß ) , although I fancy I have better legs than leghorn foghorn, certainly my beak is bigger, and have kept away from trading, I like to sleep at night. I have some dry powder, and will have more once I sell this pesky piece of paradise.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 02:59
aurator U>(h.r.s) ID#257148:
Nick@C, who me? a hopeless romantic? Hey, I believe that one day NZ will have a cricket team again, and we'll really have something to crowe about. Nuggets huh Nick, Shees, some guys have all the luck

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 02:48
HighRise U>(“Momentum investing bogs down”) ID#401460:
USA Today
“When you travel at high speeds, it's no fun to hit a wall.“

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 02:38
Nick@C U>(stop losses) ID#393224:
G'day all. I consider myself a trader rather than an investor, but as the price of precious and precious shares go down, I find myself in a quandry. I am a dyed ( died ) -in-the-wool goldbug and am having a great deal of difficulty sticking to my stop losses as gold/shares get to what I consider to be ridiculously low prices. I KNOW they can get ridiculously LOWER but I am now having trouble selling gold/shares at these prices. I was fortunate to have only started trading gold/shares again in July so I am only looking at modest losses on a few positions ( which I have made up for with well-timed puts ) . I am starting to ignore my trading rules over an overly emotional attachment to the gold/shares I am buying.

Does what I have just said ring a bell with any of you I am starting to rationalize my position by saying ( to myself ) that the explosive upmove ahead will more than make up for this temporary discomfort. I also know that the road to hell is paved with good intentions and a few similar platitudes. Someone please tell me that I am an idiot and should get back to my rules. Am I alone with these thoughts, or are some of you going through the same dilemma?

On a brighter note, I bought a very irregularly shaped gold nugget today ( 9/10ths oz ) for 10% over the ( current ) gold value. It is absolutely beautiful and has put a huge smile on my face!! This only goes to show that I am a hopeless romantic. Any other h.r.s out there?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 02:19
ShortSellr U>(PGU freefall) ID#288310:
Anyone care to speculate on how far PGU.AMEX will fall tomorrow. I tried to place a limit order for 1000 shs @ 1/8, but my genius internet broker ( SURETRADE ) won't accept any orders below 5/16. Anyone think it's worth 5/16?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 02:17
Selby U>() ID#287207:
ROR: you got part of it right atleast. The quickest way for any Canadian party to loose an election is to allow it to be suggested that they would allow the medical care of Canadians to be lowered to that of the average American.

1n8: Do us a favour and give yourself an education and have all your medical services done in the US for the next 10 years. Of course you should provide for your wife and children before you decide to do so.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 02:02
1n8 U>(6pak(suits)) ID#193348:
thank you for your response.Please understand thatI am not letting anybody off the hook with my comments, including the suits.What I was trying to advocate is greater responsibility for everyone involved.As I believe that my children should not have to pay for the aspirin that I take today with their labor tomorrow.I believe that social medicare has it's place,but it had better be a responsible system that has certain deterrents built in to keep the abuses out.Wholesale free -anything leaves the door open for an over consumption of whatever is being offered.There in lies our I too would like to keep the medical proffession fiscally healthy so it is still intact for my children.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 01:27
6pak U>(Every one is doing a job & No one is getting the job done Suits EH!) ID#335190:
December 15, 1997
Government cheated of millions at customs checkpoints - CTV

TORONTO ( CP ) - The Canadian government has been cheated out of millions of dollars in taxes on goods coming into the country, according to a
confidential customs report.

The report, obtained by CTV News, suggests customs officials are not doing a good enough job inspecting contents of packages brought into the
country by major courier companies.

It also suggested customs officials are singling out smaller courier
companies while major firms receive faster border clearance. Relatively small players and other companies have been unfairly targetted for examination, the report states.

However, a senior Revenue Canada official dismissed the in-house report as poorly researched and of little use to the department.

There are so many different concerns here, said Reform customs critic Jason Kenney. From taxes being evaded, the special treatment being given, the not enough inspection being done, the contraband coming into
the country and drugs.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 01:25
CoolJing U>(Nicodemus) ID#343259:
Interesting quote:
Fools are in the house of laughter, the wise in the house of mourning

Maybe a testimony to the way of life here in the US, where
Roseanne Barr, Hillary Clinton, Beavis and ButtHead prevail,
or worse: excell.

My typical late night gig is to check Yahoo international markets,
seeing Seoul up 7%, Japan up and China flat thinking when will they get
it that they are toast?
Then drift over to the 24 hour KITCO chart seeing it aimless again
thinking wake up Asia, then off to globex to see s$p futures up.
My diatribe about global financial disaster has been reserved to
friends and relative on two prior occasions, 1989 as Japan crashed,
at least then I had SolomonBros put warrants ( sold too early! )
and sometime in 1994-5 ( ? ) so I have not really been a chicken little
in their eyes yet there is absolutely zero interest in them hearing
about the Asian melt. Maybe they are firmly within the house of
laughter! They may be better off, as one poster noted the irony of
being dialed into all of these events, hell bent on being goldbugs,
and perhaps squandering risk money down a rathole. Time will tell
on that but at least we have our oars in the water.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 01:14
6pak U>() ID#335190:
ecember 15, 1997
FOCUS-Asian currencies downcast despite won gains

SINGAPORE, Dec 15 ( Reuters ) - Asian currencies were browbeaten again on Monday as the rebound of South Korea's won failed to provide any respite in the face of thin trading and widening spreads.

The won opened firm on expectations of central bank intervention and then gained further when the bank did step in to counter dwindling dollar sales, dealers in Seoul said.

Korean stocks also soared on renewed optimism after candidates in the impending presidential election promised to honour Seoul's agreement with the IMF. The composite stock index was up over seven percent to 385.76.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 01:12
themissinglink U>(Wild ride on the bucking Nikkei bronco tonight!) ID#373403:

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 01:11
KahunnaGrande U>(To all longing Okies on the board a joke to end the day) ID#27454:
I a simpler time a threadbare roughneck would walk from the cafe to the bridge between Burkburnett Tx and Oklahoma. He would take a long look sigh, spit and then turn and walk away. This scene went on for a long time. One of the ner do wells that hung at the cafe breought this up with the man. Friend, why do you look at the bridge every day, sigh then spit. Well the man said I got nine kids, dont wnat no more and the ones I got need a daddy. What does that have to do with your somewhat bazzare routene the ner do well demanded. The Okie got a far look in his eye, sighed, them spit. Well he said Everytime we cross that bridge the old lady gets the urge to have sex, and I get the urge to steal.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 01:10
A.Goose U>() ID#20137:
Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 01:09
Don't worry its government money.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 01:09
refer U>(Look @ it go) ID#41229:
South Korea up 7+% someone putting some money into the market!

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:34
aurator U>(How do you know that what you know is not what you believe?) ID#255284:

Welcome to our group, I sense you have much to say, and I shall look forward to listening. ( We need new verbs in e-world )

I too read CoolJing's post and found my head nodding in agreement. 'Course if you had been talking the gold-talk and walking the gold-walk with those same friends/rellies months or years ago, it is v v difficult to explain that the arguments that were persuasive 5 years or 2 years or 6 months ago are even MORE persuasive now.

My precious is at the $ equivalent lowest in my lifetime, together with all the yady yady ya arguments ( ---Ludd knows we read them every day here-- ) that are make more sense now than ever, things are more precarious, more on the edge, more fraught with danger now than for many years,and you realise that the audience has already mentally checked out and are looking for their thank you. Unfortunately many of those we care about care only for bread and circuses.

Noone listens to Cassandra. Why should goldbugs be treated any differently?


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:33
refer U>(Globel Warming) ID#41229:
If its anything like the ozone scare its nothing but a pay off to somebody.

I'm in the refrigeration industry. ( Hence, the handle refer ) In order to get a refrigerent license, all people in the handling of refrigerents had to get a special lincense from fed. In order to get this license we had to take a test. ( Open book! ) In the class we went over the hypothesis of how refrigerents ( cfc's ) ,you may know it as freon ( dupont's tademark ) caused this hole in the ozone layer!

The major offenders are:

R-12 Used in automobile, grocery stores coolers and freezers, Window airconditioners. Also was the propellant used in aerosols

R-11 Used in air-conditioning systems in buildings ( Large central systems )

R-502 Used in food industry and grocery store fo low temperature application.

It was explained as such, ( laymans terms ) :

The released refrigerent ( chemical which is lighter than air ) is broken down by ultriviolet light into its original elements. The chlorene molecule is then atracted to Carbon Dioxide molecule, ( like opposite poles of a magnet ) . The jointed molecules then raise up to the stratisphere ( where the Ozone layer exists. ) The chlorine molecule is the released from the Carbon Dioxide Molecule and attacks the Ozone molecule ( O3 ) and turns it into an Oxygen molecule ( O2 ) the same chlorine molecule is then released to attack another. This process of the break down of the refrigerent takes approximately 50 yrs. Once the chlorine enters the ozone layer it has a half life of 125 yrs. ( which means after 125 yrs. it has 62.5 years left to cause damage. )

So lets do some math, refrigerents were develope and used in the early 1900, widely used in the 30's The ozone didn't show signs of damage until the late 80's ( The math works out so far. ) In the 90's the ban on ( only in some countries ) refrigerents went into effect. ( I think it was July of 91 )

In 95 I started hearing reports of how the ban of refrigerents have slowed the process of the ozone completion.

This seems odd to me since we havent' seen the effects of the refrigerents released in the 60's and 70's ( which was at tremendously larger volumes )

The refrigerents that replace the banned refrigerents demand more energy and have shorter life spans on components of system. 134A ( a replacement for R-12, the most popular in all industry ) have caused brain tumers in lab rats. People exposed to this have a maximum recommend exposer limit recommended by manufacture, Duponte. The only problem is they don't know how the person will know when the limit is reached. Oh I almost forgot, the tumers are non cancerest. ( is that a word? )

Whats being relayed in the industry is that duponte patents were expiring and Duponte happens to be front runner on the replacements

The scientific community is almost split down the middle that the ozone situation is man caused or not. Many believe that it is an natural event to release unwanted gasses in the stratisphere. If you remember the highest release of Carbon Monoxide ( green house gas ) is vulcanoes ( We had a lot of activity from those )

If somone can correct the facts as stated please due so because this was brief course on the issue and may have glossed over some facts.

By the way, before the ban average price of R-12 was $.75 a pound today it is over $35 a pound ( over half in taxes, that is why you here of people smuggleing it in from mexico, which does not have a ban. )

Side note- eventhough there is a ban it is still readily availible legally.

So who cashing in on the global warming issue?

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:29
Earl U>(@ugly stain.) ID#227238:
John Disney: Actually the remark about a stain in the sky came out of the Global Whining conference in Kyoto last week. It was somewhat miscast however, in that it was really the result of an offhand remark about Al Gore's shorts. ..... And truth be known, Karlito could not be with us last week because he was enroute to deliver a key address ( whine ) at said gathering.

As reported by the Peoples Broadcasting Service ( PBS ) , a rich affair it was. Updates were provided on an hourly basis. As usual, the only villain in the proceedings, standing, as usual, in the path of human progress, was the US.

When will we ever learn all that the Unibomber tried to teach us. Living in a simple shack in Montana. Acting as the conscience of all mankind. Doing his level best to right the wrongs of the simple man. And now they have clapped him in irons. Go figure.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:28
6pak U>(1n8 @ Canuck Socialism RE: Socialism Enterprises = SUITS SCREWED IT UP ) ID#335190:
1n8: Should we go back to hospital side door medical care as was the past. Get a grip. Put the suit's feet to the fire. Doctors get educated via tax dollars, teaching hospitals are provided via tax dollars,hospital medical staff provided via tax dollars, medical staff and doctors leave Canada to make more money in the USofA, never to pay the Canadian tax payer for the education received. By the way only the doctors have been found guilty of excessive billing, ever wonder why. Hell the tax payer has given so much why shouldn't the tax payer dig deeper. Hospital administrators are given millions in golden hand shakes, ever wonder why. Sooo, what the hell is wrong with the tax payer getting aspirin, why hell, the tax payer is in heavy pain considering all those suits that must be given their dose of paper money eh!

A doctor is a teacher. When was the last time your doctor taught you how to be healthy. It is marketing, sickness is a big business, they have no interest in teaching you how to be healthy & well!

Check this out, a 33 year old heir of Fiat, states that industry to serve society!

December 14, 1997
Italy mourns death at 33 of Fiat heir Agnelli

He didn't know how to do anything. He was supposed to wash pieces and prepare the workbench, Pietro Suppini, a factory worker who knew him at the time told La Repubblica newspaper.

But the humbling experience served him well in later years.

I am convinced that industry's role is to improve society. Maybe this is more important than simply churning out profits, he said.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:23
223 U>(Silver is bumping into $6.00US again. Noisy little bugger ain't it?) ID#26669:
JTF Glad you liked the club of rome posts.I think it's interesting we think we can predict what it will be like in ten years, but can't say where the charts will be in ten hours!!! But I'll be snoozing. Good day all.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:17
oris U>(@John Disney) ID#238422:
John, I'll be brief, dont want to waste your time.

I shot the second beer can, I first fired at it with
22 cal. semi-auto until damn thing transformed into
mesh. Then I shot it just once with a magnum load of
buckshot from my 12 gauge pump at 5 yards. After
that I had nothing to shoot at...

I am sorry for bringing these grizzly details to
your attention, but this is THE AMERICAN WAY...

Very truly yours,


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:11
Nicodemus U>(RE COOLJING, Crying Wolfe, When it is really a bear) ID#335379:
Hello CoolJing
Glad you got it off both our chests !
What we believe colours how we percieve. We oft chose a belief that requires
the least amount of action, particularily when the belief is greeeed motivated.
Perception is then satisfied that all is well. Bulloney.
Being nervous is normal for those
that look to see.

Fools are in the house of laughter, the wise in the house of mourning

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:11
Schultz U>(Sooners) ID#288349:
Glad to hear from some Okies. I've spent a lot of time in OK and still have family there. I've enjoyed seeing names of towns tossed around that are so familiar to me on this forum. I've been living in California for over 10 years and I miss things like manners, Tex Mex, driving skills, people who know how to shoot guns, 4H, Bluegills, Roller rinks, real meringue pies, unpretentious people and muscle cars.
Yall keep postin. Boomer Sooner.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:08
Earl U>() ID#227238:
JTF: This may be one of those rare occasions when I am found to be in error but I think oil has always traded freely on the open market. ie, that there was never a time when the price of oil was fixed. .... Even in those days before the cost of gasoline crossed $0.50/gallon and green stamps were provided with the purchase. A more innocent time as it were.

Be that as it may, the present day oil producers are indeed free to purchase gold directly but, the story goes, if the volume of conversion is directly related to oil sales ( 27 million barrels/day ) we goldbugs would find ourselves unfairly compensated for our collective miseries. A likely outcome. No doubt. And all at the expense of more important paper goods. Of course. Since that could not be allowed to happen, another scheme must devised to satisfy all parties ( except goldbugs ) at the table. That is that oil producers are accepting payment in off market gold priced at some $1,000 per ounce.

Such is the fundamental thesis underlying the scheme. As Another has presented it and as I have understood it, to date.

In his last post, Another postulated that, at some time, the oil producers would price oil in gold and dollars with the bargain weighted in favor of gold. If one possessed gold. That was the essential contradiction as I saw it. Oil would have been priced at a tiny fraction of an ounce of gold and some number of US paper dollars.

Allen, cleared the contradiction by pointing out that a clear distinction between dollar cost and gold cost of oil, the distinction, would effectively, and instantly lock the gold market and revalue gold to some $10,000 per ounce.

My two simple, modestly functioning, brain cells are clearly inadequate to the task of evaluating all of this and drawing a sane judgement. For the moment it must remain an interesting story.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:04
John Disney__A U>(What Makes Karlito Tick ?) ID#24140:
Quiz for all -

Who said ?

The Sky is Spreading with a Stain

Something's going to fall like Rain

And it wont be Roses

Prize - One piece of imaginary gold dust

For Karlito The Speechmaker and Frequent Traveller.

You duck my question - Why are you here Are you

here to save us from ourselves Are you just

another really good person built along the

general lines of Hillary Clinton Who CARES about

EVERYBODY ? You hate gold - why do you talk to us

I'm not going to go away on this one - so may as

well start talking --- C'mon '-- What are your


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:03
oris U>(@JTF) ID#238422:
JTF, thank you.

Just wanted to see if my own thoughts are reasonable.
Looks like there is a lot of similarities in a way
we both think. It gives some hope.

Best regards.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:03
PrivateInvestor U>(Fed & JAPAN) ID#225283:

Well it is nice to know that this is now out in the public...I honestly hope it does not get broadcast around the world as a money says it has been going on for a while...but if this news gets picked up by the mainstream media the party will end in a hurry.Just a moment while we crank up the press.

Mr & Mrs Taxpayer how would you like to pay today...okay ...we'll just double the interest payments on your record high consumer debt and begin foreclosure on many of those adjustable rate mortgages.

Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:01
1n8 U>(ror(canuck socialism)thots from a lurker) ID#193348:
I couldn't help responding to ror's somments on Canadian medicare.It seems American's have a bit of a skewed impression of the health of our system.I am from the heart of socialism in canada,saskatchewan ( 50 years ) and take my word for it,all is not exactly well in the health services industry here.It's expensive,overused because it is percieved to be free, ( the most prescribed drug in Canada is aspirin because we've gotten used to going to the doctor for every ache and pain ) and inefficient.Our tax rates are the highest in the G-7,to pay for these socaialist enterprises,we wait from several months to over a year for elective surgery,including bypass surgeries.Our governments responce to these problems is the same as any other socialist government,and that is to raise taxes,rather than implement user fees to stop the abuses.The exodus out of sask. by young people to a more equitable enviroment in next door market economy driven alberta is nothing short of phenominal and still there are organizations like the U.N that rate saskatchewan as the best place in the world to live.Go figure.Could it be that recent stats show that only one in eight people in sask. are net tax payers?


Date: Mon Dec 15 1997 00:01
Jack U>(Saul 23:28) ID#252127:

Sounds conceivable. One can't put anything past those guys.

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