Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 23:59
Tarnished @ 19:34 - Your post is looking a little bit blackened to me ( tarnished ) with self-righteous accusations. Now that you mention it I do recall that you ( or someone ) had mentioned the fuel cell issue previously. And perhaps I did ask questions. ( Due no doubt to the fact that I was interested! ) . Seems to me that I even requested that the party who posted might e-mail me in private so that we could begin a meaningful discussion in private. This offer was never acted upon. Your pompous remarks are therefore unfounded and unwarranted. As I stated in my recent post, I am very interested in the company and DID e-mail various Friends about the possibilities of the company about a month and a half ago ( when the stock could be had for about $35. ) This was NOT due to any spurious comments that were made by you or others on this forum. I am much more closely aligned with first hand information on this particular issue than you give me credit for, and if the truth be known, ( please review your desultory comments to me ) , you owe me a heart-felt apology for your unfounded remarks. If you require further evidence before issuing me an apology you are free to take up the offer that I made a couple of months ago and e-mail me directly.

As Bart has mentioned to us all: Please Note: For your protection, please do not post any comments...that are accusing, harassing or defamatory. It is your duty as an information provider to verify the accuracy and legality of the content you are providing and to accept liability for any actionable defamation or objectionable material which you may provide.
I realise that this warning may seem a little severe in the present circumstance but it should serve as a reminder to all here that sometimes we push the submit button before we have actually thought about the accuracy and truth about what we post.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 23:52
Auric @Still buying>(@Still buying):

RJ @ 22:52-Thanks. No apology necessary. It would
be a duller place here if everyone agreed. IMHO,
keep up the posts, they are appreciated.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 23:49
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
In Tort's honor the Mailman delivered!...

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 23:22
Read prior as wannabe. This is what happens to a brain after swimming for 72 hours in a short squeeze. Time to go have a weekend.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 23:17
Some may be surprised that I do most of my trading in silver, which currently is, at best, a PGM wannbe. P & P are the story now, I hope I do not bore. As for Gold see my 22:52

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 23:11
Consider today to be a dip in platinum, I have purchased what I can and still be considered sane. Trading ground to a halt midday as buyers found no sellers, at any price. If the Russians delivered all they had today, it would be snapped up in a flash. Did anyone notice coin spreads are lower that bullion spreads? When has that ever been seen? That's because it costs more to melt down coins for industrial use. Yes, we have reached the point when private investor platinum holdings ( only 8% of all aboveground platinum in private hands ) are being considered fodder for the cannon. Platinum is a rhino and, like all charging beasts, the safer location is behind it rather than charging up it's nostrils.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 22:57
panda @>(@):
Quotes to live by? Where do they make up some of these words anyway?

``I don't believe South African producers have stocks of metal,'' said Barry Davison, the managing director of Amplats, the world's largest supplier.

``I don't think relief can come from here. The relief can only come from a resumption of Russian supplies and dishoarding of the metal.''

Dishoarding? What MBA came up with that one? I think I have to get a new dictionary.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 22:52
RJ Alas Auric>(Alas Auric):
Auric - Re your 02:14 in response to my at odds of 01:58 - This was actually a reply to the kind welcome I received from Goldbug 234513 ( 6/6/97 01:27 ) . By the way, what happened to the first 234,512 Goldbugs? This latest in what looks to be a rather long line of Goldbugs ( inbreeding? ) was apparently not satisfied that I corrected my own typo. Sometimes the fingers find the right key, sometimes the key right next to it, and thus our talent in apprised. I guess I am always surprised when humor is met with acrimony, when gentle jousting is met with slash and burn.
I regret you felt misunderstood and the fault is entirely mine for not replying to Monsieur Goldbugger directly.

That said, in response to your concerns about being in over you head, aren’t we all? Who know what this market will do tomorrow? Not I. As for the near term prospects for gold, please understand that I view gold less as an investment or hedge against inflation, rather than a hedge against my more speculative buys. I am forever looking to short gold against my longs whenever the opportunity presents. The risk is minimal and the protection great.

I own gold. I am as susceptible as anyone to it’s allures. I love the way it glows and the way I gets warm so quickly in the palm of my hand. Like most, I have a special place in my heart for gold. I also love to sell it into the dirt and let others test their patience in it’s eventual rise.

Again, I apologize for the slight and the misunderstanding.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 22:51
panda @for.the.record>(@for.the.record):
I'm sure most have read these stories already, but for the 'record';

How prophetic,gold crashing, er, I mean in a plane crash...

speaking of auto emissions,

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 22:36
Post Office SLC>(SLC):

Tortfeasor: Great minds post alike!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 22:34
Post Office Salt Lake City>(Salt Lake City):

Mail will be delivered on time.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 22:33
Tortfeasor Basketball>(Basketball):
Jazz chewing on some Bull gluteous maximus at halftime. Malone special delivering tonight.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 22:10
MR. BEAR @ the cave>(@ the cave):
MoreGold : I think you would be wise to discontinue your current chart service because I see no VERY bullish action on my charts. GOLD HAS GONE DOWN IN PRICE SINCE THE BRE-X BULLISH NEWS BROKE.
RE: Fri jun 06 1997 14:41
You actually listed one which is VERY bullish for Gold - the Bre-x washout. The markets had already discounted Bre-x comming on line with 71 to 200 million ounces of Gold. This False Gold then evaporated into thin air. This is bullish not bearish.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 22:10
Roebear @Hershey>(@Hershey):
Here's URL for a sand platinum play. Did 20% today on half position, OK for a day, warning - speculative speculative. Supposed to be an article in Barons about it.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 22:07
Mooney - I am never offended by a reasonable challenge. Re my .23:26, this was a REPOST to make up for appalling sloppy, non-spell checked priors. Originally posted PGM info 23 hours earlier 6/5/97 00:26 ( 6/4/97 9:36 PDT, PL $422 spot with most looking for a pullback ) . I agree with you however, hardly a bold call. More like bold conviction. Looked for $475 in June - $477 spot today, expected $250 palladium by Friday - missed by $2, $248 London spot.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 21:56
Tortfeaser, et al:

Awarenessly Challenged Golden Blond Jokes...

Q: What do you call a dead golden blond in a closet?
A: The 1984 Hide and Seek World Champion.

Q: What do you call a smart blond?
A: A golden retriever.

Q: How does a blond kill a fish?
A: She drowns it.

Q: What do you do when a blonde throws a pin at you?
A: Run ....she's got a hand grenade in her mouth.

Q: What is the blonde doing when she holds her hands tightly
over her ears?
A: Trying to hold on to a thought.

Q: Why did the blonde stare at frozen orange juice can for two hours?
A: Because it said 'concentrate'.

Q: Why did the blonde climb up to the roof of the bar?
A: She heard that the drinks were on the house.

Q: What's the difference between Elvis and smart blondes?
A: Elvis has been sighted.

Q: What did the blonde do when she noticed that someone had already
written on the overhead transparency?
A: She turned it over and used the other side.

Q: How do you get a one-armed blonde out of a tree?
A: Wave to her.

Q: How does a blonde high-5?
A: She smacks herself in the forehead.

Q: How do you know when a blonde has been making chocolate chip
A: You find M&M shells all over the kitchen floor.

Q: Do you know why the blonde got fired from the M&M factory?
A: She kept throwing out all the Ws

Q: How can you tell if a blonde's been using the computer?
A: There's white-out on the screen.

Q: How can you tell if another blonde's been using the computer?
A: There's writing on the white-out.

Q: How can you tell when a fax had been sent from a blonde?
A: There is a stamp on it.

Q: Why do all blondes have a dimple in their chin and a flat
A: Finger on chin-I don't know. Hits forehead-Oh I get it!

Q: Why did the blonde scale the chain-link fence?
A: To see what was on the other side.

BLONDE #1: Have you ever read Shakespeare?
BLONDE #2: No, who wrote it?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 21:10

Having not had a lot of sleep the last few days I offer the following delusion. Some weeks back, there was a rumor in the market that the Russians wanted to use their PGM stockpile as collateral for a loan. The story goes that because the PGM's are so illiquid it would be hard to price and hedge paper based on this stuff, so the Swiss bankers that were approached said nyet or whatever Swiss bankers say. Suppose for a moment that this was true. The Russians were looking to borrow against their PGM inventory instead of dumping it on the market because they knew that over time it would be worth more than at a one time fire sale. After having been rebuffed they took the only course of action available. Freeze all exports, allow the miracle of supply and demand to work its magic, then when the world has reaccessed the value of PGM's go back to the market and ask again. Who know's, maybe they still have a big stockpile and will trade it for some useless but less volatile backing such as gold. Maybe in exchange for a big old pile of PGM's that is desparately needed, they will get themselves a big old pile of gold that no one seems to want. Could be the Russians are getting the hang of this free market stuff a lot faster than anyone thinks.

Bart's article seems to set the clock ticking for the PGM market. Far too much political pressure will brought to bear upon anyone with stockpiles if it means the shutdown of the auto industry. I wonder if old Ron Rubin will be on the phone this weekend with his buddy Julian Roberts. I'd like to have that transcript!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 21:08
M-B Partner>(Partner):
Tarnished: I'm following the Ballard story with interest. Could you provide support/documentation for your assertion that Honda and Ford have signed contracts with Ballard as there chief souces of fuel cell technology.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 21:05
Some interesting numbers from Mr Kaplans daily update on COT report for white metals. For both PL and PA, the conventional wisdom has been reversed. The commerials were net short and the specs net long in both cases.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 21:00
Reify @Some things remain the same>(@Some things remain the same):
Enjoy reading everyone's post, and have great respect for most, but one has to have faith in himself ( or herself ) , and I think what's important at this time is to step back and look at the overall picture. The large one. It's worth a 1000 words!

As Jimmy Rogers often points out, don't look at what everyone reads and sees, look at the trend and what it says about the future. Well let's do that. We have low inflation, we're told ( I think the true inflation picture is hidden behind a mountain, and that mountain is the DEBT ) .
Then let's look at the world's stock markets, they are all at extremely high levels, do we agree, so far?
Now there's the question of precious metals, which have always gone in the opposite direction, on a cyclical basis, and low and behold, we see they are very low, and on a several year basis, let's say as far back as 1982, they look like a gigantic base is forming. This also being true for precious metal stocks. Sure we've been in a bear market in these stocks, but what comes after a bear, you've guessed it- A BULL, and that' no bull.
Now for the traders. We have several, who have made excellent calls, no need to mention names, we all read the same posts. This fool has tried and failed, playing the trading game. I wonder with all the lovely stories of success, after Uncle Sam, or whomever, get's his cut and commisions are paid, and the losses are subtracted from the gains, how many can say, they are truly ahead in the long run?
Right again, not too many.

So for most of us we have to look to buy wisely, whatever that means, and sit and watch our profits acumulate over time. If not ours, then our children and grandchildren's. This having been said, we all know that looking into the future, with all the givens, Markets will tumble Gibralta will crumble, they're only made of clay, but our love is here to stay. VIVE, VIVA, long live GOLD!

Sorry, but I'm overly tired, and one sometimes sees things better, or worse, at night.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 21:00
ted butler Dresdner source>(Dresdner source):
REB: I read the story a few times over the past day or so. One source I just checked was yahoo-REUTERS 4:21.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 20:58
MIKE SHELLER..Did you see my earlier question to you ?Do you have an up to date astro-forcast on silver Would you mind posting it if you do ? Particularly for next couple of weeks.....

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 20:48
WW @New England>(@New England):
Hypothetical Ques for any Metals Markets Technical experts. The following is a hypothetical situation and I would like to know if there are any risks and if so what are they.


PrecM Co. has 7 million ounces of mineable reserves in gold. 3 million of these are in the development process and will come on line next year.
The company is currently producing 200,000 ozs per year and this will ramp up hopefully to 350,000 when the mine in development comes on board.The company will produce only 200,000 this year but has sold call options on current years production of 400,000 ozs with a strike price of 390. All spot deferreds are being covered for this year and future years so the short options are the only hedge. If Gold suddenly goes to 450 THIS YEAR are there any risks and if so what are they? The co says there are none because they can roll forward. Viewing the white metals this week is their statement accurate and/or does their future reserves and production adequately protect them?


Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 20:40
bw: I vividly remember part I of the Greenspan saga and heartily second Vronsky's comments. .... When seized by the creative itch, please pass part III along.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 20:30
Mike Sheller we are very much amused>(we are very much amused):
My thanks to all. A very entertaining and exciting week. Returning from Florida was well worth it. Nothing like a precious metal or two busting loose to make life worthwhile, eh? bw: 17:50 Existentialism comes to Kitco. Write On! Well Done. new kid: Keep Buyin'. You want to hold the cold metal in your hand! Bernatz, & Earl: Thanks for the laughs!!! BART: I think at this point you could charge a subscription fee. This is better than Methadone. And finally, thank you Platinum: What little of you I own has done me proud. It's nice to have SOMETHING in the old portfolio jumpin!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 20:30
Ted Butler: what't that about Dresdner? Do you have a source for that? Very interesting. Thanks.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 20:17
WW @New England>(@New England):
TED BUTLER: I believe an earlier post here indicated that Dresdner Bank was selected as a Dealer for US Treasuriies. Shortly after this they sold a boat load of GOLD 350 calls for 17 which expire in May 1998. Their worry re the White metals may be the contagion effect and since the problem in those Markets are PHYSICAL the paper boys cant do anything with their derivitives and in fact the derivitives are now working to make the situation worse. Whites keep rising might push up silver and gold and we know about the short position in those mkts.

Reason for pandering to China clear now BOC rumored to be big treasury buyer. After China and 34% of debt foreign owned our boys are becoming really indebted to overseas sources to keep the bubble going. We will see worse trade deals and NO demands on China.

Stk mkt rise and pressure on metals at end means they need to keep pumping the confidence drug when the economic situation has never been nor is it possible to imagine it being more precarious.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 20:00
ted butler Chutzpah Award>(Chutzpah Award):
Here's to that well known and long time platinum miner, palladium refiner and user, and all around PGM physical presence Dresdner Bank for their sincere ( we're only suggesting it for the greater good of the market ) call for the U.S. to release the strategic stockpile of Pt and Pa to calm down the disorderly ( going against us ) markets. I'm sure it has nothing to do with any short or lease obligations. Oh, I forgot, this is part of the original Marshall Plan. And here I thought we all had to eat our own losing trades.

Seriously though, I've read an awful lot of passionate discourse here about politics and social security and corporate and personal welfare, but I'm dumbfounded there is no outrage that a foreign bank would suggest a bailout so soon into a market move. I'm also taken back with the new definition of a cash transaction having delivery extended to 30 days ( let's see what happens in 30 days ) . I have to admit it sounds a lot better than default.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 19:52
tarnished makin waves from Dinghy>(makin waves from Dinghy):
Mooney: Your 13:41, I believe the reason you never mentioned anything about Ballard earlier, is because you didn't know anything about them.
A couple months back Earl, Ted and I were conversing about the useage of electric cars and the lack of requirement for catalytic converters if this should come to pass. After it was pointed out how archaic present
battery technology is I presented Ballard and Fuel cells as the more forward approach to the problem; following which you had nothing but questions. Please don't present yourself as the proprietor of information
which you gleaned from here.
As an addendum; The Chicago Transit Authority, Honda Motor Co. , Ford
and several other major auto and transport manufacturers, have signed contracts with Ballard as there chief souces of fuel cell technology.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 19:47
Steve (Perth WA) Impressed>(Impressed):
Panda, top Long Bond chart! I presume after point 5 in a few months, it will blow out like during 1995!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 19:45
Panda: T'weren't me. .... Graves probably kicked over another rock again. You know how it is, another noncontributing lurker. Some of them, occaisionally, come down off a bad trip and coherence becomes difficult.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 19:45
Este on COT>(on COT):
COT for June 3rd available at

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 19:44
ALL.... IMHO...China has made it's purchase of MFN status today. You may expect this to be announced next week. A little arm twisting was all it took....Those trips some questioned a couple of weeks ago did the trick. Now we have China and Japan as big holders of US paper...The plot thickens !!!!! Just wonder if it was an emergency prop up or just anothre way to keep things going for a while ? Some of you intellectuals chew on this one for a while.....

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 19:44
market watcher More on EMU story>(More on EMU story):
Friday June 6 5:10 AM EDT

Waigel to hold June 18 CSU briefing on EMU, gold

By Emma Thomasson

BONN, June 6 ( Reuter ) - German Finance Minister Theo Waigel will defend his controversial plan to revalue Bundesbank assets and his stance on Europe's single currency to his Christian Social Union ( CSU ) on June 18, the CSU said on Friday.

A CSU spokesman said Waigel had been due to address the party, the Bavarian sister party of Chancellor Helmut Kohl's Christian Democrats ( CDU ) , earlier this week, but was forced to cancel because of ``important engagements in Bonn.''

Waigel on Tuesday was forced to retreat from his plan to help plug a gaping budget hole and qualify for the euro with profits from revalued central bank assets, after sharp Bundesbank criticism and disquiet in the ruling coalition.

The beleaguered Waigel on Wednesday survived an opposition parliamentary motion calling for his dismissal, after Kohl threw his weight fully behind the struggling minister.

CSU sources in Bavaria's state parliament said there was broad dissatisfaction with Waigel in his own party, particularly because of the row with the fiercely independent Bundesbank over asset revaluation.

The sources said the party was critical of their leader because he had not informed them sufficiently over his plans.

Waigel on Thursday denied there was any discussion in the CSU party about a possible delay to the start of European economic and monetary union ( EMU ) , planned for 1999, as reported by Friday's edition of the Sueddeutsche Zeitung.

The Munich-based paper said CSU members were discussing a possible delay due to the left-wing election victory in France.

Waigel also reaffirmed that Germany would meet entry criteria as outlined in the Maastricht Treaty and that the deficit criteria must be strictly met at 3.0 percent or below of Gross Domestic Product ( GDP ) .

The Sueddeutsche Zeitung daily quoted a member of the CSU state government in Bavaria as saying: ``Since the French election we have agreed currency union must be postponed.''

The report said the CSU state government and CSU members of the state assembly in Bavaria believed a single currency would be a ``monetary death sentence'' after new French Prime Minister Lionel Jospin suggested it could be launched with softer financial criteria.

A spokesman for Bavarian Premier Edmund Stoiber said in response to an inquiry that Stoiber saw only 50-50 chances of a punctual launch of the euro if France's new leaders met certain election campaign pledges.

Dominique Strauss-Kahn, France's new Finance Minister, has suggested that criteria in the Maastricht treaty on monetary union, including a requirement to cut public deficits to three percent of gross domestic product, should be interpreted politically rather than in strict mathematical terms.

Stoiber, quoted by the Sueddeutsche, said softening the criteria could have disastrous consequences. ``If people notice in the year 2005 that they have given up their currency too soon, we can really talk about a bomb in Europe,'' he said.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 19:38
Steve (Perth - Western Australia)>(
Good morning all, its Saturday already! Following news feed about the immediate need for an interest rate rise is interesting....& George S. Cole is right on the money again....
Figures from the German Bundesbank showed 11.4 percent of Germans were out of work in May, compared with 11.2 percent in April, while the U.S. jobless rate unexpectedly fell to 4.8 percent in May, its lowest level since October 1973.

But a weaker-than-expected U.S. 138,000-job rise in May payrolls, while counteracted by upward revisions to the March and April figures, caused some to question the immediate need for higher interest rates.

You could talk a bit that the number was neutral for Fed policy, but with stocks and bonds so strong, I don't think you can get a whole lot out of that argument, said Mike Malpede, senior foreign exchange analyst at Refco Group Ltd. in Chicago.
Reuters...6/6/97 ( Yahoo News )

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 19:37
panda @will.the.real?>(@will.the.real?):
Now, will the real, 'flight to quality', instrument please shine bight yellow, er, I mean stand up? The clock is ticking, says the chart. A little more of a rally in the bonds and then? Perhaps rising rates in a month or two? Could it be? Nah! Stay tuned.

Gone now.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 19:32
panda @?>(@?):
TED -- You asked for it, so here it is! Without further delay, I present the weekly Long Bond chart. Apparently the rally was due to a, 'flight to quality', sparked by a rumor of a delay in implementing the EMU. Did someone say the EMU was a flightless bird?


Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 19:11
Wondering w@W>(w@W):
Hello Bart:
But Bart, the firms that sell the PGM metals short also sell gold and silver. If some of these firms fail and default on their PGM contracts, will they be able or allowed to make good on there gold and silver positions? Will the firms and indivuals who were cheated, allow this?


Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 19:10
bw: ref your Greenspan's nightmare: the big one II ) - very well written with financial emotion literally oozing from each line. In addition to myself, there are others here who would like to see more of your rhetoric.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 19:09
TED @longbond>(@longbond):
What a move in the long bond bringing the yield all the way down to 6.78%
Hi Panda...nother good day fer

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 19:08
Glenn AUAG>(AUAG):
Finally some bullish news:

My sence of the sell off on the Close was that most traders who had bought over the past two days simply did not want to go home long over a weekend in case something happened with the platinum situation. So since MOST traders are wrong expect Gold to open up higher on Monday. Of course the Platinum situation could get worked out this weekend I doupt it will releave the situation by Monday.

Although the closer we get to $350 ( Aug ) the better the shorting opportunity will be!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 18:48
panda @>(@):
Bart -- Thanks for the news story. I think I hear a, In order to prevent disorderly market conditions from affecting..., speech coming on from somebody. ;- )

Earl Jr. -- Huh?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 18:45
MoreGold @EMU Blues >(@EMU Blues ):
MR.BEAR and others: The EMU is in bigger trouble than ever.
Read the article in todays Globe and Mail. Helmut Khol is the only strong backer remaining and he may be gone next year. Large majority of Germans don't want it. France and Britain want it watered down, and others want it delayed. Khol has said if it is delayed it will never happen.
If it's watered down, the Euro will be a weak currency. HeHeHe - what better news for Gold than a weak European currency.
Nightly Business Report - just this minute - reports a rumour that the EMU will be delayed - what timing?
This is all bullish news for Gold.
Those counting on the EMU and a strong Euro will be sorely disappointed.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 18:43
Earl Jr. @goldendreams>(@goldendreams):
IMHO the late day sell-off in Gold-XAU does not and I emphasize does not bode well for the direction of gold in the long to intermediate term if the folowing considerations are taking into consideration...Bla...bla...
yackity yack excetera.IMHO ODLE and I are the only voices or reason in the wilderness of AU investing when one takes stock of the amount of witty comments needed to show our total superiority to the rest of you peons.IMHO bla bla bla droning on and on and on.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 18:32
NJ long bond>(long bond):
Bank of China is the rumored buyer in this story.

Friday June 6 2:26 PM EDT

US T-bond yield drops to 6.80 pct, shorts cover

NEW YORK, June 6 ( Reuter ) - The benchmark U.S. Treasury 30-year bond yield fell to 6.80 percent in afternoon trade on Friday, its lowest level in more than three months.

Short-covering, foreign buying and technical factors boosted the 30-year bond price more than a full point as its yield dropped to 6.80 percent, the lowest level since the close on February 28, traders

At the shorter end of the maturity curve, the two-year Treasury note yield slipped to 6.13 percent, its lowest level since its close at 6.11 percent on March 12.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 18:26
Gene @Reality>(@Reality):
I'm quite happy that you and so many others are thinking like that. Historically such total bearishness by so many often preceeds a run-up, such as total bullishness in the stock market may preceed a bear market. In the stock market now good news is taken as good news, bad news is taken as good news, and if there is no significant news someone makes up a bullish story. The herd is running all together; they may run off a cliff all together.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 18:25
TED @tort>(@tort):
Tort: Good one...I needed that!...Got yer missive and I'll do me best..

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 18:20
Gene @Reality>(@Reality):
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree. I'm thinking that it may not skyrocket. I'm thinking that it might rise slowly like a feather taken every higher by a breeze.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 18:01
Bart Kitner>(
PS: We put somthing from today's news wire at http:///news.platinum.html concerning the Russian situation. Although the article says that there are no efficient substitutes for palladium in automotive catalysts, rhodium was being widely used before palladium replaced much of the rhodium based catalytic converters.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 17:51
Bart Kitner (Kitco)>(
TO WONDERING: When the lease rates are higher than the prime lending rate ( backwardation ) it greatly encourages the dealers or anyone else carrying inventory to sell into the market today, since they can contract to buy it back cheaper at a later date.

It means an increased cost to carry inventory which means higher surcharges on PGM products. In fact we just received notice from our suppliers beginning with the familiar As you may already be aware....

The sqeeze is on Pt and Pd because of a ( perceived? ) physical shortage. This isn't the case with gold and silver and so I wouldn't expect the lease rates to coattail the PGMs. I can't tell you if the price will move up in sympathy because if I did then everybody would know, and then it wouldn't be interesting talking about it, and then nobody would come back to our website, and then.....

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 17:50
bw Greenspan's nightmare: the big one II>(Greenspan's nightmare: the big one II):
Greenspan is finishing his third gin and water, less water with each drink. They are testing us as never before, he thinks. In the last four hours he had been forced to create out of thin air, almost one trillion dollars in electronic cash. He has been authorized to create an unlimited amount, whatever it takes. Still something is different this time. Always before a few hundred billion would crush demand. This time it was only satisfying it, and only for minutes. No, the real problem was not the amount of cash he had to create. On his order, the computer would create ten, one hundred, one thousand trillion dollars in milliseconds. The problem was gold. The price of gold had trippled in the last five hours and almost no volume had been traded. The only offers were from the IMF. The only reason the IMF was offering a few ounces every ten minutes or so, was so they could say gold was still trading. Silver was not trading as the IMF had no silver stocks. As fast as he was creating the cash, the cash was attempting to flow into things. And the cash was trying to become gold in the worst way. If only I could create the damn gold, he thinks.

The New York markets start to open soon. The phone rings once more, his monitor tells him its Michel. Michel go the hell away. I wish I could Alan. Will this day ever end? How much do you want now? Alan as you know cash alone will not work this time. We in Europe have a plan and I want to run it by you. You don't have to Michel. Let me guess, this time you want both gold and cash, correct? Correct Alan. We need two hundred million ounces of gold from you along with two and a half trillion of your good old usa dollars. We will kick in another two hundred million ounces of gold and perhaps we can crush this thing real well. Two hundred million, are you crazy? Michel, you know damn well we don't have that much gold! Alan neither do we. Just promise to deliver it! All we need to do is cause the overdue reaction, you can cover, make some money to boot and deliver nothing. I'll have to go upstairs on this Michel. Don't be too long Alan, we may only have a couple of hours, we have to get this thing under control before your stock markets open.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 17:49
GFD The next shoe>(The next shoe):
DA: Do you have any feel for where the next ( if any ) market to follow Pa/Pt will be That is, should be be playing silver or should we be playing gold Thanks.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 17:31
Tortfeasor Friday afternoon joke>(Friday afternoon joke):
Here's a little story for Ted and his sea going ilk.

Once upon a time there was a famous sea captain. This captain was very successful at what he did; for years he guided merchant ships all over the world. Never did stormy seas or pirates get the best of him. He was admired by his crew and fellow captains.

However, there was one thing different about this captain. Every morning he went through a strange ritual. He would lock himself in his captain's quarters and open a small safe. In the safe was an envelope with a piece of paper inside. He would stare at the paper for a minute, then lock it back up. After, he would go about his daily duties.

For years this went on, and his crew became very curious. Was it a treasure map? Was it a letter from a long lost love? Everyone speculated about the contents of the strange envelope.

One day the captain died at sea. After laying the captain's body to rest, the first mate led the entire crew into the captains quarters. He opened the safe, got the envolope, opened it and...

The first mate turned pale and showed the paper to the others. Four words were on the paper, two on two lines:

``Port Left, Starboard Right''

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 17:23
Tort: Your 7:33 was absolutely the best to date. Who said there is no humor in poverty?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 17:14
Jack All over the place>(All over the place):

Mr. Bear: If the government had no gold, I'd want it.
Mooney: ( 13:14 ) These new methods of propelling our bombs
drive me nuts, they have so many possibilities out there.
How about Zinc-Air modules ready to use by large fleets
to power vehicles. Electro Fuel Corp. ( EFCX ) has a series
of test going in Germany, Italy and the Scandanavian
countries that look promising. Soon they will be testing
at a location near you or us.
Lan Man: ( 09:46 ) Government statistics and Wall Street
projections are fabricated to keep the market up and the
gold bugs unhappy. They want everybody else to Don't
worry, be happy - this until they decide to lower the
boom for the intro of the Pheonix.
Duncan: ( 22:57 ) No one really knows how much gold they
( mining Cos. ) have in the ground until it comes out
profitably. Sometimes they catch the problem early -that
to say after some investors get screwed. Say Brex-x,
then Delgra___, then ________?. They will keep
coming. Not anything new, just a part of the scene.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 17:11
RJ: If you are lurking today, I would like to comment on the thread that seemed to be developing late last nite. That is that for many of us, the PM's are not our professional racket. Probably never will be. Our purse is thin and our skills as well.

By your own account, you move in a world that is alien to our own and to read about it may be a cause for some discomfort. Primarily because, those who do know what they are about and how to do and do it well are also proud of that fact and have no desire to 'hide their light under a bushel'. ..... In short, please continue to post your opinion and I will learn to deal with the rest. There are many things to learn from this site. Forebearance not the least.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 16:57
Bernatz: It is a delight to return to Kitco for a review of the day's gossip and find your comments on the top of the list. Sorry to hear about the temporary setback in your pursuit of riches from common dirt. The loss of a few is hardly worth mention. That a few losses must be incurred in the process is of no matter. There will be others to replace them and in due course it will all be forgotten. Indeed, given your high probability for ultimate success, when it does occur, these same ungrateful people will consider it an honor to have given some of their own in such a noble cause. For the moment, it is no small source of comfort to know that you were able to take flight and avoid any serious unpleasantness over such a trifle. You are handling it in such a 'continental' manner. A credit to your forebears. Please keep us appraised of your progress that we may look forward to the moment when stock will be issued and cries of fraud may begin.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 16:47
MR. BEAR @ the cave>(@ the cave):
Preacher: #6 Governments want low price = low inflation

The govenment would like to see gold at it's real value ( cost of copper ) and once and for all killing the myth that the barbaric relic of years gone by is somehow a hedge against inflation. If gold was ever to raise its ugly head as a safe haven against the evils of fiat currency the governments of the world would sell at a huge loss to stiffle the reasugance. But they do'nt have too, they will sell very slowly and reap big profits while keeping the fiat currency strong. Do you believe the EMU would let gold devalue the currency. The CB's will and are selling all the gold in thier valuts now. They know the future of this barbaric metal is gone. If the CB's had no gold who would want it?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 16:33
Bernatz de ventadorm alchemist's valley@les pyranees>(alchemist's valley@les pyranees):
Mes Amis
Pardonez moi so much for zee long seelance. Ah have
been zo buzy on zee gold from zee infected dirt machine.
But ah had zee grande technical probleme. Ah tried to
juice up ( as you say ) zee process wiz some Black Plague
zherms zat Ah had kept in a zhar from when ah was
a keed in zee so called dark ages. Sadly all my staff
zey DIE by dam, poor souls, and ah had to leave zat
village rather quickly.
Now a new projzect - Zee Platinium from zee gold - zis
should not be so tough - Im off to see zee wizards zee
wonderful wizards of zee pyranees.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 16:15
panda @>(@):
Bart -- I like the new header!!!!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 16:13
panda @>(@):
Read the BONDS section:

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 16:10
George S. Cole, Internet’s Resident Economist: With Dow up 123 ( 7428 ) his 8000 call appears certain - He also anticipates start of secular gold bull in same period. See Cole’s Market Insights:

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 16:10
TED @nailz>(@nailz):
Nailz: A foggy mist now surrounds Scaterie Island makin it look even more mysterious and maybe even a little OMINOUS...How much do metal detectors cost?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 16:06
GFD Congratulations>(Congratulations):
DA: That palladium play of yours looks to be a home run! Congratulations!! It's great to see a play like that work out, even if it is from the sidelines. Especially for poor old bugs watching squashed worms!!

One question though. I would expect selling in other markets to cover losses in palladium and platinum. I am not seeing it in this case. Is it because the shorts are mostly industrial traders and don't cover this way or am I not looking in the right place?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 16:05
TED.....I feel SCATERIE beckoning me now...with promises of great wealth produced by the finding of much treasure....Then on to OAK to multiply that wealth...Then back to KITCO and corner the gold market !!!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:51
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
Tarnished: What ya laughing at dude...Thought it up while runnin the chainsaw...hahaha...Dow up 130...wonder if that insignificant employment report had anything to do with the big gain in the market...probably not cause it don't have no effect on it bro...

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:47
TED @nailz>(@nailz):
Nailz ( 15:36 ) I like CHAINSAWIN things!...but yer right probably couldn't find anyone to do the work in this land of fat lazy people who think the NDP is great...Big waves are rollin in off the ocean but Scaterie still bekons...

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:46
Bob @...Platinum price managed by Russians>(@...Platinum price managed by Russians):
Dose anyone here believe we actually have a real shortage in platinum ?
The Platinum Paper Market is being manipulated by the Russians to their advantage. The last story I read in this matter was that Russian platimum was authorized to ship for June - as expected - but the export permit needed to be signed by a government official. Interesting ? If the Russians could only manipulate the gold market in their ( our ) favour we would all be rich in no time !

Anyone have a guess when the platimum paper market will crash ? What price ?


Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:45
George S. Cole bulls and bears>(bulls and bears):
Some of us on this thread doubted this was the beginning of a big gold runnup, and today's weak close supports that viewpoint. I still find the action encouraging, because it reinforces my conviction that the gold complex is basing for a big move up this summer. I suspect we will stay in the $340-345 range ( spot ) for the next month or two, and then a big upside breakout.

When gold does finally enter its next bull phase, rest assured that it will NOT occur on a 130 point up Dow day. Much more likely on a minus 200 or 300 point Dow day. Also, just as gold badly lagged the whites over the past few days, the whites will badly lag when the yellow stuff takes off

Stock market in its final blowoff phase and Dow could approach 8000 before this summer's final top. More upside potential in small caps at this phase of the cycle, despite today's under performance.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:43
tarnished @Dinghy makin waves>(@Dinghy makin waves):
TED: I'm still a doctor!
How'bout that BKX, little piggy's gettin fat!
Still hangin on ABX to get a move-on.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:43
Jack Interesting Times>(Interesting Times):

Rowe developing between Underwritters and McWatter's
concerning the Sigma and Kiena Reserves. Bre-x has made
everyone very careful. Story in Financial Post.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:42
Preacher Bear Patrol>(Bear Patrol):
With all this talk of testing the Bears, maybe we should test Mr. Bear for rabies? He’s talking drivel. His reason # 6. Governments want low price = low inflation contradicts his arguments that gold is dead. Come back after you get some shots and can make some sense.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:41
Jack Interesting Times>(Interesting Times):

Row developing between Underwritters and McWatter's
concerning the Sigma and Kiena Reserves. Bre-x has maked
everyone very careful. Story in Financial Post.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:36
nailz HEY TED !!!!>(HEY TED !!!!):
TED....Why on earth would a man of your means be out in the woods with a chainsaw? Is it because where you live you can't hire anybody to work

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:29
TED @tarnished>(@tarnished):
Tarnished: Hey dude, what's yer thoughts about the new kid on the block..
..hahaha..DOW up 130...Hi Tort: Just noticed you in me mail box and am off ta read me mail...

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:24
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
Is Kitco a little slooooow fer anyone else...XAU up .37 and DOW only up 127....yawn...

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:22
tarnished @Dinghy...INCOMMING!!>(@Dinghy...INCOMMING!!):
Front: Re: Stevie Y, OK! OK! Minor technicallity!
Although citizenship is ascribed to place of birth...I know I'm grasping!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:13
Showing You>(You):
How about $850 for 1 oz of gold now worth about $350 and $850 $DOW now worth about $3000 as has been said here.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:12
Auric @Its in the bag>(@Its in the bag):

Mr. Bear: Sure hope you have on a protective cup
under those shorts

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:12
EARLDORADO @twoheadedmonster>(@twoheadedmonster):
I am Earlorado and I like to hear myself drone on and on and on...IMHO my posts are the best! IMHO the rest of you don't have much to say but I will suffer through your posts just so I can read by own brillant thoughts.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:07
panda @>(@):
Thirty year bond index is pricing in nirvana. On the other hand, it is getting closer to completing the triangle. May be we'll post a graphic later...

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 15:04
MR. BEAR @ the cave>(@ the cave):
Goldielocks and the three bears

1. 16 mo. baby bear $415.00 to $337.00

2. Almost 10 year moma bear $502.75 to $326.10

3. 17 year papa bear $850.00 to 284.25

#1 baby bear needs a test of $337.00 only -$6.00 or 2%

#2 moma bear needs a test of $326.10 just -$17.00 or %5

#3 papa bear needs a test of $284.25 - $60.00 or 17%

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 14:47
show me @missouri>(@missouri):
MR BEAR: Read your 10 good reasons why gold is a negitive now give me 1 good reason why paper is better?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 14:47
Short Bull @ Out of my XAU yesterday, missing .38 gain>(@ Out of my XAU yesterday, missing .38 gain):
With the DOW up over 120, the XAU has struggled today to stay afloat.
I mention the DOW because the XAU has been tracking the DOW better than
the metals. I predicted metals up just one more day ( today ) and with the
weak closes in gold and silver toward their lower ranges, that prediction
looks pretty safe. I am happy to be out of the XAU... ( no thanks Mr. Cole ) .
Mr. Cole believes I will miss the big move in the XAU because I trade too
much. Because I trade in and out so much I won't be carrying losses when
we ultimately bottom. I will be smart enough to recognize when the
bottom hits surely, and I will stay in when the XAU gives me reason to.
So far it has not. If we drop a little next week I will be getting
back into the XAU.

The Bradley point on Monday is looking more and more like a high rather
than a low....enjoy the rally in the DOW as long as it lasts because
today or Monday could very well be a significant high ( famous last words ) .
I know I am not smart enough to predict a major high in the markets, but
Mr. Rosen and several cycle analysts are...and they have missed the last
few calls but it looks more and more like they got this one right. The
NASDAQ is quite weak looking on this rally and I don't feel the NASDAQ
100 will trade much above 950 on this move, which is about 6 points higher
than we are this moment. Well, we will see. Anyone I am out of all
futures positions and mutual funds and I made could be a lot
worse. I am more convinced with this rally today that the markets are
in trouble, than if we had sold off. The only thing that I feel can save
the DOW is for it to sell off on the close. Because this is likely a
major high, it will likely rally on the close and become more and more
overextended.....which is what tops are made of.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 14:46
show me @missouri>(@missouri):
MR BEAR: Read your 10 good reasons why gold is a negitive now give me 1 good reason why paper is better?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 14:41
MoreGold @MR. BEAR>(@MR. BEAR):
Most of us have heard those arguments ad nausium, and they don't wash with us.
You actually listed one which is VERY bullish for Gold - the Bre-x washout. The markets had already discounted Bre-x comming on line with
71 to 200 million ounces of Gold. This False Gold then evaporated into thin air. This is bullish not bearish.
I expect much more False Gold will evaporate into thin air in the future.
Meanwhile, we NEED you guys ( Merril Lynch, shorts ) to keep writing us these damn cheap calls.....

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 14:40
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
Well, I guess the direction got answered!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 14:38
nailz Question for Mike Sheller>(Question for Mike Sheller):
MIKE SHELLER.....Have you updated the astroforcast for silver What does it say

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 14:34
To Bear (@)>((@)):
That is why gold is the ultimate contrarian play. Time to sell when it rises and the blowholes on TV are recommended it!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 14:19
Bob A guru>(guru):
Both swc and pdlf up. With a little luck Barrons will have a guru telling us to buy plat stocks. A perfect time to exit early next week

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 14:18
Front @upandatum>(@upandatum):

Panda & Mooney:

Panda: Thanks so much for the link. Seems strange what they said there though in that the oversupply in oils supplies was much of what brought the price down from $22 to $19+ .... Now they say it's because it won't drop to $15 ? What am I missing here ? Is there supply or not ? Guess time will tell but I like your theory a lot !!!

Mooney: Thanks for the compliment but I can assure you that's NOT what she meant! After 25, I'm just untrainable any more haha BTW, The checks in the mail !!


Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 14:13
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
Looks like it's shaping up to be another of 'those' closes today in the gold! Will it be up or will it be down? Which way will she break?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 14:09
Strad Master Riding the snake>(Riding the snake):
RJ: Re your 8:26 post. What would you gustimate is a reasonable dip? Thanks for your wise posts.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 13:49
newkid ohio>(ohio):
to all
i've been reading your postings for sometime now ( including Gold Eage ) .
prior to Nixon getting us off the gold standard, if one wanted gold, one needed to exchange it for his labor or real goods. since 71 or 73 all one needs to do is simply exchange pieces of paper and a promise to pay for it in the future. ( thats what fiat currencies are ) . following this i can get gold and have future tax payers pay for it? im buying!!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 13:49
newkid ohio>(ohio):
to all
i've been reading your postings for sometime now ( including Gold Eage ) .
prior to Nixon getting us off the gold standard, if one wanted gold, one needed to exchange it for his labor or real goods. since 71 or 73 all one needs to do is simply exchange pieces of paper and a promise to pay for it in the future. ( thats what fiat currencies are ) . following this i can get gold and have future tax payers pay for it? im buying!!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 13:47
ALL....If any of you have not taken the opportunity to brouse the links page that Bart has set up, you should do so. It has some great sites..

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 13:41
Mike Sheller la vida es suena>(la vida es suena):
vronsky: I think las lagrimas del luna son ( how you say ) welling up. Where is Bernatz now that I need him? Anyone short silver now is gonna be cryin' pretty soon.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 13:41
Panda, Front and ALL - Platinum is used as catalyst in many industrial processes. A MAJOR new one ( IMO ) coming on stream is in the manufacture of fuel cell technology such as that being developed by Ballard Power of Vancouver ( don't laugh - Mercedes Benz just bought up 25% of the company for 500 million ) . Recently I e-mailed a few friends that that stock is on the cutting edge and may be a good buy ( month and half ago ) at $35. Yesterday it closed at $42-5/8 ( I believe ) The reason I didn't mention it here was that it is not a mining co. but since Platinum is involved I guess it's O.K.!
Front - Sorry - was in a hurry and couldn't find my map! ( Also Sorry about the wife needing something to complain about - But I guess that is a round-about compliment from her as it indicates that you are perfect in every other way! )

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 13:37
Mike Sheller Miso for Lunch>(Miso for Lunch):
bw: There was an old song/chant I heard when I was a kid - You get no bread with one meatball. Re: Boskin - As I'm sure you already know, don't waste too much time betting your bread on what meatballs have to say.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 13:30
panda @>(@):
Front -- Oil story;

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 12:59
panda @>(@):
Front -- Just a thought, isn't platinum used in the oil indutry for catalytic reactions in the refining process? If there is a supply 'shortage' ( pt pa that is ) , oil production goes down, demand prices Sorry, there's that twilight zone thinking again....

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 12:59
10 reasons why the barbaric metal is dead:
1. Unlimited supply because the stockpiles will never deplete.
2. CB'S supplies
3. No currency based on gold
4. Major retail buyers uneducated and poor ( asia,middle east )
5. Cannot rally with PGM'S
6. Governments want low price = low inflation
7. Bre-x and friends
8. arizona to produce gold from sand
9. No news moves gold price
10.Negitive perception ( hitler/jews, bre-x, dooms day investment, storage, lousy returns )

Can you think of any more reasons? I bet you can if you are honest and try real hard! Come on give it a try, you might like it. What do you have to lose? MONEY

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 12:57
JOHN W.......Go to this site for silver options prices.....Use the phone #### at the site and call Bernie. Give him a chance to handle your purchase....

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 12:56
bw A conversation with Boskin:>(A conversation with Boskin:):
Mr. Boskin I would like to extend your famous steak argument on the cpi overstating inflation. Very well. You state that if steak becomes too expensive consumers will switch to the less expensive chicken. This is correct. Now what happens should chicken increase in price by say 10%? Well I suppose they could switch to soybean meal. And should it rise in price also? Bread? And if the price of bread should rise? Day old Bread? Do you mean to tell me that consumers eating day old bread instead of steak will hold down inflation? This is correct.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 12:46
D.A. another.war>(another.war):

I mentioned last night that the silver market was being bought heavily by some funds to the tune of around 30MM oz. Apparently there is a big OTC option struck at $5.00 which expires in a few days. The writers want to hold silver down and the buyers want to bid it up. After an early foray by the funds the writers have struck back. Will the funds try again? Will they be successful ?
Stay tuned, the battle has been joined.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 12:40
JohnC @Silver Options>(@Silver Options):
John W
I hope the following site might help you in your search for SI option quotes.
The info is updated after the close of trading each day.

Trade options with care. If you buy options, you can lose ALL your premium plus your transaction costs. If you sell options, you can lose spectacular sums of money in hours.
But, as a speculative instrument, their convexity under fast moving markets often can double or triple their value in days. If you read through the postings, you will note that DA refers to this in relation to his Platinum option position.

Please be careful out there
JohnC Brisbane

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 12:34
Bob A pgms>(pgms):
SWC finally moving up 9.9% pdlcf down on the day so far.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 12:28
Steve (Perth - Western Australia) @burning Midnight Oil>(@burning Midnight Oil):
Surely the Dow Jones Industrials Index is indicating MADNESS? How can the low employment figures be good? Surely it is a soon sign of wage inflation?, not profitability... DJIND 7405 a record

``The bond market has decided that the employment data is positive,'' said Douglas Cliggott, U.S. equity strategist at JP Morgain. ``Bonds have surged in the last half hour or so and equities have followed right along in their path.'' The rebound in the Treasury bond market was also attributed to some short-covering. The Labor Department said the unemployment rate fell in May to 4.8 percent, but with ONLY 138,000 new jobs added. ( VERY LOW!!! )

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 12:24
Novice @blow breezes blow..>(@blow breezes blow..):
SWC fans: A few ripples finally starting to appear over the surface of Stillwater...

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 12:09
John W. silver options>(silver options):
Dear friends,
I'm looking to buy a silver futures option leap with a strike price around $7. Something like a Dec98 silver option, strike $7. Where can I get quotes on silver futures options this far out? What would the symbol be? And about how much would it cost?

My broker doesn't do futures options and he's the only broker I trust. So I want to make sure I know what I'm asking for before I ask a different broker.


Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 11:56
oldhand @cold fusion?>(@cold fusion?):
Could it be that the extraordinary strength in PGMs is cold fusion revisited? Just a thought. Comments?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 11:55
Bob @....another Bob ?!>(@....another Bob ?!):
Bob: We have an ad hoc protocal on Kitco. The first user of Bob gets to keep it until otherwise advised. As you may agree, it gets confusing when more than one personality uses the same posting name. Agree ?

Inflation obituary:


Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 11:54
Front @upandatum>(@upandatum):


Just noticed that the XOI ( Oil index ) had jumped about 5.00 basis points in about 2 minutes. Since there could be pressure here helping Gold stuff, does anyone have anything about why the Oils exploded?

Mooney: Wanted to get one but she said if I did she'd have nothing to grouch about! Go figure you'd not spell the hometown right ( :- ) )


Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 11:52
vronsky wow@holycow>(wow@holycow):
Ref: I wonder how many people really know what qualifications a person is required to have in order to be licensed by the NASD as a BROKER? That is what training is necessary to adequately prepare a person to MANAGE YOUR MONEY? Well, it is pathetically little: a high school education, A One Month Training Course, and a qualifying multiple choice exam. About the exam: more than 75% deals with the Rules & Regulations of the NASD & SEC. ONLY ABOUT 10% DEALS WITH THE NITTY-GRITTY of what the investment markets are really all about.

Therefore, it does NOT SURPRISE ME IN THE LEAST, that the typical 24-YEAR OLD WALL STREET BROKER asks, What is platinum?!! I also wonder if the word BROKER has something to do with how many investors end up by listening to spiels of WAll Street?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 11:48
MoreGold @wet behind the ears>(@wet behind the ears):
bob: Ask your 24 year old broker what a bear market is.
I bet you 10 shares of Bre-x that he doesn't know.
This is basically why stocks are still going up, and non
of the masses have caught on to Gold --- YET.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 11:46
bob bob@bob>(bob@bob):
To All metals shorts:

SAVE YOURSELVES!!!!!!! I would sugest that you sort of extract yourselves from your PGM short positions by gong long the Gold and silver markets. BUT, make sure you do it before anyone else does.

Sooner or later love is going to get ya sooner or later love is goning to get you ; love is going to win.

Sleep tight and don't let those gold bugs bite.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 11:44
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
The major August gold trend line resistance comes thru at 348.2. Therefore, I expect major selling should it get there. On the other hand, SHOULD it get above there, possibilities open up for the upside! Draw your own lines and see if they don't agree!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 11:41
DK Plabug>(Plabug):

I need long term charts on the PGM's. Does anyone have a site?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 11:28
bob wow@holycow>(wow@holycow):
You guys won't believe this: I told my 24 yr old broker that platinum traded at $500 in Tokyo trading. His response was, whats platinum?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 11:26
Bob A my opinion>(my opinion):
South africa will never try to take undue advantage of the plat, pallad situation. They didn't do it back in late 79 early 80's and they won'd do it now. They don't want a substitute for PGM's.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 11:24
vronsky TED BUTLER LOGIC APPLIED to Platinum & Palladium>(TED BUTLER LOGIC APPLIED to Platinum & Palladium):
Following is the reality of what Ted Butler indicated in his letter to venerable Alan Greenspan and the illustrious Robert Rubin. Butler’s astute call is beginning in the Platinum and Palladium markets - which historically have lead the rest of the precious metals markets. However, the “Doubting Thomases” will say, “But world banks have 33,000 tonnes of gold that may be used to quell any rising wave of noble metal prices.” IMO that is an illusory perception of reality. The Fed has NOT SOLD one ounce its gold hoard in over 20 years. It would be political suicide for the Fed to start divesting the nation’s gold stash as cyclic market forces begin to push all precious metals prices higher. Furthermore, any overt attempt by Central Banks to dump bullion on the market would be interpreted as inherent currency weakness of the selling country. This would only add fuel to the fire, causing the precious metals price rise to accelerate.

In light of the spectacular rise of Platinum and Palladium in recent days, and RELATED news out of Switzerland below, a review of Ted Butler’s analysis would provide one with clear vision of what is to come. Ted Butler’s brilliant analysis ( i.e. letter to Greenspan and Rubin ) may be seen in its entirety at:

Friday June 6 3:34 AM EDT

Gold firms in early Europe, PGMs surge further

ZURICH, June 6 ( Reuter ) - Gold was only slightly firmer in early European trade on Friday, overshadowed by further spectacular gains in platinum group metals ( PGMs ) .

Palladium jumped to $235.00/$245.00 versus $205.00/$215.00. On Thursday in London it was fixed at $235.00 after hitting 17-year highs on the spot market.

Platinum meanwhile surged to $480.00/$500.00 versus $443.00/$444.00. Early on Friday in the Far East and Australia it touched levels as high as $500.

On a monthly chart, it was the highest level for platinum since August 1990 but one trader at a Swiss bank in the Far East said spreads were wide, and deals small.

“We are seeing $30 spreads on very small deals,” he said.

Late Thursday in London, Trevor Pitts, chairman of the London Platinum and Palladium Market Association said after a meeting of its 10 members, plus the three Zurich-based clearing members, that there had been no defaults in the market.

As business began in Zurich, traders said the market remained nervous.

“There is simply no liquidity. Everybody is trying to buy, but no one can offer anything,” said one trader.

The Swiss-based trader said also that the market remained nervous about the possibility of a default, despite Thursday's statement.

“The whole trade is built on trust that someone can deliver. If one looks to see how much volume is traded, it is larger than the physical supply,” he said, adding that under normal conditions this posed no problem.

But in the case of a possible default, he said the situation would be analogous “to a run on the bank.”


Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 11:19
cherokee @sweat-lodge>(@sweat-lodge):
what do you expect? ask your broker an honest question ( re:?dec'98 gold-370 strike ) and what do you get? a wrong answer.
the $60.00 price was wrong. after the eject button was hit
sending that e-message, i had a sinking feeling that there
was something smelly. it was 60 pts x 10.--- for $600.00 each!
listen to your broker and get burned every-time!
sorry for incorrect post on that price. think!; )

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 10:59
JohnC @Brisbane,Australia>(@Brisbane,Australia):
Wheat doubled last year,
Coffee doubled this year,
Palladium doubled,
Platinum + $50 in a few days,
Silver up, down, up,
But Gold... to answer your question,
No Never Nyet,
Gold is never going up,
A Bear market forever.
This time it's different... It can't recover. ( sic ) .

Happy Trading
John from Down Under

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 10:58
Gene - The move in Platinum has been so spectacular tha I would not say that YES, it does appear that this will be the break that Gold needs to get out of the flat-line syndrome.
IN FACT - I WOULD SAY THAT RIGHT NOW IS THE TURNING POINT! WE SEEM TO BE HEADED UP AS WE SPEAK! ( Soon might have to post the Louis 16th comment ) .

Front - Same boat as me eh? Also - They never heard of the modern invention of automatic dishwashers in Calaboogie?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 10:47
Gene @reality>(@reality):
Does anyone think that gold could follow platinum and palladium? Does anyone have certain knowledge of how much gold is stored in Government Vaults?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 10:46
RJ - Welcome aboard! Really appreciate your joining us, seriously so don't take my comment the wrong way, but considering that Platinum had been surging for the last few days, ( to approximately, somewhere, maybe, around $430 yesterday ) , do you really think that you were making a bold prediction last night at 23:36 when you told us that: South Africa can
smell the money and they will come out to play soon. $450 in June.
Save this message and remember you were advised in advance.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 10:40
South African stocks Jump with Soaring Platinum Metal Prices. Review study: PLATINUM: The Rich Man's Gold, & charts of Impala & Rustenburg stocks - also Stillwater Mining at:

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 10:40
Ted - I KNOW your hurt AND that you're joking with me. I would have been happy to see N.Y. win also, but it just wasn't in the cards this year. BTW - I freely admit that I know squat about the difference between the Bull and the chocolate!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 10:23
bw Time to buy physicals:>(Time to buy physicals:):
While we all contemplate the fortunes we will make in futures, perhaps it is a good time to buy a few rolls of physical silver eagles. They are dirt cheap, its leverage you can live with, they never mature and once in hand you do not have to worry about anyone defaulting.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 10:19
Bob A dead>(dead):
SWC up a bit PDLCF off a bit,still very disapointing.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 10:18
POLARBEAR naval intelligence center>(naval intelligence center):
RANDGOLD Resources, the offshore arm of Randgold & Exploration, intends to raise between $120m and $160m to fund gold expansion projects when it lists on the London Stock Exchange later this month.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 10:18
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
Mooney: When are ya goin to get a hockey prediction right?..and you never answered the question about who is goin to win the Calder Cup between Hersey and the Hamilton Bull dogs...Front: Thanks fer puttin Tarnished in his place...he haw...XAU up .99...

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 10:17
Front @upandatum>(@upandatum):


Unfortunately Ted, you may be correct. Every time we go to a bar in the states, we ask for water. It's usually imported from Canada ( purer or something ) and a lot stronger than any American beer. Whenever my friends come here, they're always smuggling cases back for their friends. Never heard of any Americans smuggling US beer into Canada though !!

Oh yea, liquid gold !!!!


Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 10:12
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
Front ( 9:40 ) Most Americans don't know there is differece between Canadian brewed in the states and in Canada cause most Americans know diddly about their neighbors...but they's still experts about beer..hahaha

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 10:07
TED @lanman>(@lanman):
Lan Man: Yeah, they were real close on that

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 09:46
Lan Man Ahh, Just Round Up!>(Ahh, Just Round Up!):
Ted ie Unemployment numbers: Revised upwards by 33% - pretty darn accurate numbers considering that they came from gov'ment bean counters! Wonder what would happen if we used the same math to figure out the taxes that the IRS says we owe on our income ( although my income is actually a trade of labor for pieces of paper ) ?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 09:40
Roebear @HersheyComet>(@HersheyComet):
Bart You are quick!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 09:40
Front @upandatum>(@upandatum):


Last night I didn't get a chance to reply to your post:

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:43
Mooney ( @.Ted ) :

Can't even wait for reply! It was our 25th anniversary on June 3rd and the wife is yelling for me to come upstairs. Some things are more important than talking to my hockey buddies! :- )

I'm not sure, but I think I know what you did when you got called upstairs. I was celebrating the same thing on May 20 but when my wife yelled at me it was to come and help wash the dishes. Same at your house? I'm the BOSS at my house and my wife gives me full permission to say so!

TARNISHED: So if he was born in BC, that doesn't mean he calls it HOME. Ask him where he's from and he'll say OTTAWA ( actually Nepean, a suburb of Ottawa ) , cause that's where he grew up, went to school, played minor hockey and where his parents still live. He even has a summer hockey school here and comes back home every summer. I'll bet he hasn't seen BC except to play a one nighter there since he was 2. Tryin' to steal a guys hero/star is hangin' talk around these parts !!!! ( :- ) )

EARL: You are forgiven my son .... with Mooney leading you astray, you are absolved of any wrong-doing automatically. BTW, someone mentioned the other day about Labatt's beer in the states being sooooo good. BS. The real thing from Canada is 5% , the states stuff is less %. You pay more and get less! Now THAT's what I call a benefit of FREE-TRADE !!!!

Oh yea, that's liquid GOLD ! .....


Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 09:39
Roebear @Cometcoaster>(@Cometcoaster):
Gold spot 346.20 at 9:36 AM EDT USA today, why no ( or is it HI HO SILVER AWAY ) silver spot. Geez, all this excitement and I'm up to my ears in work, oh well there's always work!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 09:37
Scott @home>(@home):
XAU UP 1.02 ALREADY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW

its going to be a good day

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 09:25
Scott @Brisbane,Australia>(@Brisbane,Australia):
Thanks : Eldorado

Tried your site is just what the doctor orderd!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 09:24
Lan Man Admin What?>(Admin What?):
Most interesting that the news wires always use the phrase Administrative Difficulties when writing about Russian delays in metal shipments. Yea, like in Administrative difficulties in paying the miners their back wages so the miners are having Administrative Difficulties in digging out any more metal.

FYI: Put in a limit order 2 days ago for PAASF @ 6.75, of course that order created a floor for the stock as well as silver, this has happened 2 times times this year, did catch 2 other moves though. I find that PAASF is a great indicator for the future price of silver.

JDisney: Thank you for keeping us all up-to-date on the happenings of DB-Deep/Blydy merger. Put in a limit order for BLYDY this a.m. @ 2.5625, lets see if that order does the same thing for the stock as well as the gold price in dollars!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 09:15
John Disney>(
For Aly
I dont know when merger takes place either. There must be shareholders meetings first to ratify the agreement I suppose.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 09:12
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
EBN Gold up only .30 and Silver up 7 cents...No of course the measly employment report could never have an effect on Gold...

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 09:04
junior reality check>(reality check):
I want to believe that this is the real thing too. I will be a believer when I see CDE & SSC going up . I will believe if XAU and gold shares have a good day. ( highs above 106 on XAU ) I will believe when the premiums on metals options are much higher. Until then, This is a trading rally. What is in place so far is that bonds and S & P probably are starting new moves down.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 09:04
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Scott -- The web resource link button has a DGSE site listed. I believe that is what you are looking for.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:54
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
You all don't really expect that unemployment report to have an affect on gold, do you? So far, it's been flatter than a run-over worm!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:52
Scott .>(.):
Any kind person out there got a live gold spot price site for me to cry over!

thanking ya

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:48
Auric @Wake up, gold!>(@Wake up, gold!):

Panda: May I recommend chocolate covered esspresso
beans. Will have you buzzing like Platinum!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:47
TED @fouthcup>(@fouthcup):
Panda: I hear ya bro...Iez shakin so bad the puter is rattlin+rollin..
hard to hit the right key...S+P futures DOWN 3.60...

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:43
TED @goldandsilver>(@goldandsilver):
Initial reaction is UP! EBN Gold up .70 and Silver up 12 cents...

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:42
Scott ...!!!>(...!!!):
Can anyone give me a link to online qutoes you are quoting ?

pls pls pls ..... ;-|

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:41
panda @>(@):
TED -- Need MORE JAVA! Bondo's oscillating, Spoo's going loopy, up, down, and all around.. Come to think of it, I must be oscillating! BBL.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:39
TED @mornincoffee>(@mornincoffee):
S+P futures down 2.0 ...make that .60...folks we have FAST market down 1.50....make up yer damn mind Mr.S+P!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:36
TED @employmentreport>(@employmentreport):
Bonds down half a point....Panda: are ya shakin down 11 ticks

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:36
The temptation to short platinum or palladium is not unlike the first time as children we all reached out to touch the hot stove, the results are still the same. look for reasonable dips to buy, ride the snake.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:35
panda @>(@):

Rock'n Roll time!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:33
TED @employmentreport>(@employmentreport):
EMPLOYMENT REPORT: Rate=4.8% and 138,000 jobs created BUT April revised UP to 323,000 from 242,000...S+P futures turned around and is PLUNGIN...
down 3.90

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:32
panda @>(@):
TED -- on my third cup of coffee since 5:30, sleeping pills won't work anymore! :- ) )

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:30
panda @comment>(@comment):
The market has an almost infinite amount of money compared to me. Therefore, the market is always right.....

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:28
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
Panda: Take 100 sleepin pills and pull up the blankets...confusion in unusual!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:25
TED @tort>(@tort):
Tort: yer missile just landed and just remember it's all in the stars....and dart board...40 degrees and drizzlin here....but it's dry heat...

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:22
panda @>(@):
Good Morning TED! Now how do I cover myself both ways and make a killing in the process? ;- ) )

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:21
panda @>(@):
More confusion from Russia;

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:19
panda @coincidence?>(@coincidence?):
GM strike at catalytic converter plant?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:17
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
Mornin Tort,Panda,Mike Sheller and all the rest of you bugs...Can feel the energy level risin on Kitco...EBN Gold up .55 and Silver up 8 cents..
15 minutes to the big one...the EMPLOYMENT REPORT...the estimate is fer 233,000 jobs to have been created...

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:15
panda @>(@):
Tortfeasor -- I'm not saying that I'm right or wrong, just that these are very thin markets. If some are of the mind that gold is being manipulated, then what about markets that are a fraction the size of the gold markets? Don't take what I'm saying the wrong way. It's just that I get very 'cautious' when things like this 'happen'. When I see headlines from Dow Jones saying that the forward markets have 'collapsed', I would rather err on the side of caution than profit. If it sounds like I've lost money once or twice, you're right. It's always nice to be on the right side of a big move in a market, but.... if you're not, and you get 'locked in'. OUCH! Very high risk.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:15
Steve (Perth - Western Australia)>(
6pak: THANK YOU for the excellent MAI links. Marvellous what gems you find on this site. Keep it up! Have been aware of MAI now for 6 months. It is diabolical! Everyone should study it in detail. The rest of you, stop this pre-market foreplay!!! It is too exciting!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:05
Uris @DFW Airport>(@DFW Airport):
Tort: Upon announcing to my dear wife of 36 years that I plan to
retire at the end of this year, her reply was:

I married you for better or for worse, but not for lunch

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:02
Ted, shoot the blackbird overhead with the band on its foot. I don't think I am going to short any of the metals today Panda after your comment. Thanks.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 08:01
panda @>(@):
Mike Sheller -- Non Farm Payrolls is out this morning at 8:30. Any surprises here will rock'n roll the equities and bonds. Imagine if the report is on the high side, but I'm sure the guys at labor did a good number on the numbers. :- )

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:59
News you can Use Tokyo frm the Kitco news link>(Tokyo frm the Kitco news link):
Platinum hits $500 on panicky buy

By Rieko Suda, with a contribution from Polly Yam in Hong Kong, Bridge News

( Financial summary table )

By Bridge News

Tokyo--Jun 6--Spot platinum prices hit US $500.00 per ounce today in Asia's continued panicky trading on supply concerns in the physical
market, Asian traders said.

This is crazy, a Japanese dealer said. One Japanese trader raised his offer first in the morning to $500 and others followed suit.

This led to panicky buying by Japanese traders who raised their price indications further in limited trading to the day's high of $500 bids, which
immediately met a bout of selling by Asian traders, they said.

But the selling pressured spot platinum prices, quoted at $470.00- 500.00 in late Asian trading, leading the market to become quiet again, the
dealers said.

There was a lot of buying but few selling, one Hong Kong dealer said.

In the physical market, a major Japanese refiner was offering above 2,000 yen per gram, compared with the nearby contract settlement on the
Tokyo Commodity Exchange of 1,660 yen per gram, up 76 yen from Thursday.

TOCOM ( Jun platinum ) is still cheaper than spot prices, another Japanese dealer said. But it should rise further to catch up with ( spot prices ) as
the expiry date approaches. TOCOM Jun platinum expires on Jun 25.

The Asian dealers were reluctant to make price directions for platinum.

Spot palladium prices also rose today in Asia, following platinum, but trading was less active, the dealers said.

Meanwhile, spot gold prices were slightly firmer, supported by platinum's strength, while trading was light, the dealers said. They said light buying
from European dealers firmed spot gold prices.

Gold doesn't have anything to offer ( as its own price factors ) to the market, a dealer said.

The dealers expect spot gold price will be supported at $340.50 later today in the overseas markets, with resistance at $347.00.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:56
Mike Sheller Anecdotal Alert>(Anecdotal Alert):
Just to take a breather from Platinum & Palladium for a moment, my New York Stock Exchange Balcony Indicator has just flashed a cautionary signal for the stock market. The indicator works like this: In case you've never noticed ( in which case, where you been? ) when they do the closing prices on the business news on TV ( CNBC a perfect way to follow the indicator ) they invariably show somebody coming out on the balcony of the NYSE to gavel the proceedings to a halt for the day. When the market is down , or has been recently traumatized, the balcony is empty save for that lone official who appears momentarily, bangs the gavel, then quickly departs. Nobody wants to be associated with a losing string. When the market has had a good rise, or sets a record, more and more people join the official gavel-banger on that balcony. Everyone wants to be, or look like, or be associated with, a winner. This morning I counted 5 or 6 people on the balcony, all waving and smiling and looking like they didn't want to leave. This indicator is generally overbought when the balcony looks a lot like a New York City subway car at 5:30 pm. If the long bond can bust thru 113, there could be more to go on the upside for stocks. But the balcony is flashing a warning that it may only be a matter of weeks before some unsettling volatility emerges to begin defining the pattern that will top this market out. Granted this indicator is not as much fun as watching for extraordinarily short hemlines on ladies's skirts for a top, but as a leadsing indicator it does the anecdotal job nicely enuf.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:52
panda @info>(@info):
Tortfeasor -- For your review, the platinum contract, notice the daily limit and how it can change. If we go limit up today, Modays' new limit is $50.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:50
Ok, its Friday night here in Japan, so I can stay up all night watching the action. Let's hope that all this attention to the rare one gets the other two moving as well.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:48
panda @>(@):
Tortfeasor -- LOOK at my 7:06 and 7:10 posts, if you still want to go short..... People are scrambling to get supplies. I heard a news story on the radio early this A.M. Workers at the GM catalytic assembly plant my go on strike next week. Haven't heard the story again in the last two hours, but what a 'coincidence', eh? This stuff is getting very strange! Be careful out there folks! Remember the rumors of defaults out there also. Fact and fiction are getting hard to separate.....

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:44
Panda, this market is so fascinating that I am tempted to stay home today to see what happens. Most excitement I've had before this I spent the night in the emergency room. I'm thinking gold and silver up big time today and platinum maybe a pullback due to its meteoric rise the last couple of days.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:41
Tortfeasor Bonus joke>(Bonus joke):
I'm think platinum might retract. Are anyof you going short on the possibility of a pullback in the market?

Here's a bonus joke I may have posted before but I thought it was amusing and reflects my thoughts on the subject matter.

Two men, sentenced to die in the electric chair on the same day,
were led down to the room in which they would their maker. The
priest had given them last rites, the formal speech had been
given by the warden, and a final prayer had been said among the
participants. The warden, turning to the first man, solemnly
asked, Son, do you have a last request?

To which the man replied, Yes sir, I do. I love dance music.
Could you please play the Macarena for me one last time?

Certainly, replied the warden. He turned to the other man and
asked, Well, what about you, son? What is your final request?

Please, said the condemned man, kill me first.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:40
panda @>(@):
Auric, Tort -- GOOD MORNING! Can't wait for the open in the PA / PL pits.:- ) )

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:33
Tortfeasor Joke of the morning>(Joke of the morning):
Morning Ted and the rest of you celebrating folks. It looks like we may be shaking loose in the metals doldrums. Not to bring WW back to the topic of welfare and its ephemeral fix the following actual items might pass along a chuckle on this Friday.

For those unfamiliar, Welfare payments are made in the US to
individuals and families with income below a certain level.
The following quotations are taken from actual letters received
by the Welfare Departmentin applications for support of
receiving payments.

1. I am forwarding my marriage certificate and 6 children.
I had seven but one died which was baptised on a half sheet
of paper.

2. I am writing the welfare department to say that my baby
was born two years old. When do I get my money?

3. Mrs. Jones has not had any clothes for two years and
has been visited regularly by the clergy.

4. I cannot get sick pay. I have six children can you tell me why?

5. I am glad to report that my husband who is missing is dead.

6. This is my eighth child. What are you going to do about it.

7. Please find for certain if my husband is dead. The man I am
now living with can't do anything until he knows.

8. I am very much annoyed to find out that you have branded my son
illiterate. This is a dirty lie as I was married a week before
he was born.

9. In answer to your letter, I have given birth to a son weighing
10 lbs. I hope this is satisfactory.

10. I am forwarding my marriage certificate and my 3 children
one of which is a mistake as you can see.

11. My husband got his project cut off about two weeks ago and I
haven't had any relief since.

12. Unless I get my husband's money pretty soon, I will be
forced to lead an immortal life.

13. You have my changed little boy to a girl, will this
make any difference?

14. I have no children yet, as my husband is a truck
driver and works night and day.

15. I want money as quick as I can get it. I have been in bed
with the doctor for two weeks and he doesn't do me any good.
If things don't improve, I will have to send for another doctor.

16. In accordance with your instructions, I have given birth to
twins in the enclosed envelope.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:24
Auric @This is more like it>(@This is more like it):

Panda: I gave up reading Ludlum and Clancy since I
came to this site. It's like reading a damn spy
novel and looking at a crystal ball all at once.
Exciting stuff, eh?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:13
panda @it.just.gets.better!>(@it.just.gets.better!):
I love the quotes, The platinum situation is analogous to a run on a bank.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:10
panda @>(@):
More platinum news, most are short stories, but VERY good reads!:

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:06
panda @>(@):

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 07:02
Mike Sheller Egypt Me!>(Egypt Me!):
Will the recent gold find in Egypt replace the Bungle in the Jungle with Rands in the Sands? Or is this another Pyramid scheme? The whole thing Sphinx to me!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 06:59
Mike Sheller @the feet of the Oracle>(@the feet of the Oracle):
Oracle of Alberta's 7 Threads at Gold-Eagle is a well-written, meaty summary of the swirling background events and theories concerning gold. Intuition tends to reinforce Oracle's general conclusion that it is likely that history and reality will prevail and gold will ultimately establish a revalued relationship to unchecked fractional reserve banking practices and unending credit creation. The entire financial structure of the West is now too vulnerable to a shock, which could come from any of many directions. Steady accumulation of bullion at these prices is still the only hedge the people have against potential catastrophe.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 06:47
Duncan Earl - 22:57>(Earl - 22:57):
T'would be nice indeed! BT's post gave me the 'courage' to make my post
- I am not in the same league as you chaps, but do know a little of the
South African situation. It would appear to me that the Central Banks are
in a no-lose situation with respect to their loans - presuming they lend
no more gold to hedging mines than they have in the ground.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 05:01
The Crusher @Going Nuts >(@Going Nuts ):

Pull those shorts down and squeeze this bear by the
balls until he squeals!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 04:53
Gold @left out>(@left out):

Hey, fellas, take me along too!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 04:22
D.A. spilling.over>(spilling.over):

To quote my late night desk funds are buying silver like they've never seen it before. Its up about 20 cents from NY close. The sharks are smelling blood. Don't get eaten. Don't short anything thats is bright, lustrous, and a good conductor of heat and electricity.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 04:08
John Disney: Thank you for info re Blyvoor/DD. It has been a great help. My broker confirmed your thought of 3 Blyvoor per ADR - but he had to call Bank of New York ( ? ) to do so as he was unable to find this anywhere in his system. He was unable to tell me when the merger is to be finalized, do you know?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 03:35

How far is spot Au from busting its 100 and 200 day M.A

A strong advance over this line could lead to the mother of all short covering rallies in gold..., as short after short tries to cover!

Go Gold, GOOO

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 03:29
Goldbug23 @Ingotwetrust>(@Ingotwetrust):
EBN gold up 1.10, silver up.05

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 02:59
John Disney>(
To All Those interested in Blyvoor/Dbn- deep.
Current prices provide graphic example of best entry
Durban Deep - DD trading 4.75$. Blyvoor trades 2.5$
You SHOULD get ( check your broker ) One DD for 1.67
( 5/3 ) blyvoor. 2.5 * 1.67 = 4.17$ rather than 4.75. Now
if you go via blyvoor, You will not get the half a
new DD option ( striking 60 expiry 2002 ) . However,
I doubt if you would get that anyway via ADR. They
normally auction these kinds of things in the worst
way possible for the shareholder, so I would attach
no value to the option piece. Thus enterring via
blyvoor has a 12% advantage over buying DD. But check
with your broker ( who may not know where South Africa is )
to make sure.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 02:55
Test @test>(@test):


Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 02:38

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 02:28

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 02:28

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 02:23
Ron !>(!):
Dec97 450 calls=Dec97 450 puts . . . getting sleepy

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 02:15
Ron Silver>(Silver):
Kuston: Sentiment seems to be bullish right now. Nobody is expecting silver to go to 450. A couple of days ago when it was 469, Dec97 450 calls were trading at 12cents/oz. Now, at 479 they're about 10cents/oz. And two or three weeks ago, when silver hit 485, they were about 7cents/oz if I remember correctly. True about volatility, but sentiment seems to be overriding that maxim for the moment.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 02:14
Auric @on the one hand..>(@on the one hand..):

RJ: I should have put that a little better. I am
basically a layman in here. I meant that two
opposite conclusions seem to have been reached with
respect to gold. I admit, you made an impressive
call. I am just trying to sort it out.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 01:58
I wish to be at odds with no one, nor to take sides. The market speaks the only truth. Ask yourselves: when was the last time you saw such real world, real time, detailed, and accurate information? I have read these postings for months and have seen a true desire to be informed. Some are put off by my style, yet we all have one. The world is a big place in which I have found comfort and friends. The world in which we find our common interest is a small one indeed. Discord costs money. Who among us will spare even the smallest pocket change for what gains us no good? I came only to share and am content to be judged by my peers.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 01:55

Why do you think put options will be cheap after a 20/30 cent run up?
Volatility increases the price of options.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 01:49
RJ - Yes, I understand your point about backwardization. I see backwardization in every company that I work for. Sell the future for
the present. But it doesn't have to be that way. Locking in a price
for the future can be dealt with. If GM or Intel know they need PA in
Sept or Dec, not locking in a price today now is moranic! They are not
in the metal trading business.
Sadly, I have seen enough to know they will continue to speculate in
the markets and not lock in prices. No one will lose their job over a
few 100K or a million or two. Someday, 1 company will figure out what
business they are in and do it right.

Didn't Dell lose millions in currency trading a year or two ago and they
assemble personal computers. Go figure.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 01:41
Ron Overnight Move>(Overnight Move):
EBN spot gold now at 344.65 as Sydney and Hong Kong have bid up prices about a dollar since the New York close. It'll be interesting to see what happens tomorrow with COMEX gold. FWIW and based on my own very brief observations of the market, the initial action in New York often goes counter to any relatively large overnight move.

After reading Cherokee's post today, I'm going to call my broker tomorrow and place an open order bid of $50 for a Dec98 call with a $370 strike. Let's see just how low those crazy guys at Merrill Lynch'll go! Hope the order desk doesn't scream at me for wasting their time. If it gets filled I'll be kicking myself: I paid a LOT more for some Dec97 360s a while back. If I have to bid $60 later to get a fill, fine. It's the sort of UNBELIEVABLE price that could tempt a fellow to ante up his whole wad!

Re silver: What do traders here think of buying some Dec97 450 silver puts when the underlying goes to about $490 or so ( the puts will be real cheap then ) , and then waiting for the metal to fall back to the 460-465 area before going long? Is it a good way to minimize your insurance costs for going long? Is there a problem with liquidating both positions simultaneously if silver goes against you?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 01:39
Auric @To buy or not to buy>(@To buy or not to buy):

I must admit, I am probably in over my head here,
but it seems we have BT ( if he, they are real ) Ted
Butler, and Oracle on one side and RJ on the other.
Is this play entering its final act?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 01:33
Hey goldbug,
You are a gentleman and I truly feel welcomed.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 01:29
I have, in a fit of revenge, poured half a can Fresca ( remember Fresca? ) in my spell checker. It reads backwardation as backwardization. I am ashamed......

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 01:27
Goldbug 234513 HEY RJ>(HEY RJ):

HEY RJ: Your ( 23:15 ) describes your true talent.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 01:25
Has anyone looked at the prices recently? How is it that I reported these prices 2 1/2 hours ago? What's faster than a speeding Kitco? I do not blaspheme nor do I prophesy. This is my world. I live in it, I breathe it, and sometime I stub my toe on it.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 01:09
Hey Ws,
The only way gold will jump $10 is with a knee in the ribs and a stomp on the foot. Or maybe I misunderstood soon... On a tectonic scale......

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 01:04
Test @test>(@test):

This is probably a very dumb question, but if BT is
right, and gold has,in effect, been cornered ( as the
PA market may be ) what does that do to gold mining
stocks? Do they take off like a rocket also?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 01:03
WWWWWWWWWWWWW thirteenw's@www.www>(thirteenw's@www.www):
Gold will jump up $10 very soon.
Mark my wwwwwwords.
Nothing could be better than thirteen W's.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:59
One final word as 4 am comes too soon. Backwardization means that there is no future contract. The world is spot and the word is cash. Too many people think the tail wags the dog. The futures are now and forever being driven by the spot markets. When the crunch is here and the need is now, who cares about September, or even tomorrow. There are many who would take issue with this. For those I reply: we travel in diferent worlds, who is to say what is real? When the showdown comes, you show me your contract and I'll show you my metal. We'll let God decide.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:53
Six times WW You haven't seen anything yet>(You haven't seen anything yet):

SO you think that WW was bad; just you wait HeHeHeHe.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:45
DK cant spell>(cant spell):
RJ thats mentor. I need some sleep. good night all

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:42
DK good night>(good night):
RJ You are my metor. I will slay the dragon tomarrow morning.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:41
tarnished @salvos from Dinghy>(@salvos from Dinghy):
Front: Sorry Front, Stevie's actually from Cranbrook BC, not Ottawa.
'night too Ted,and try picking a winning team for a change!
I think that slip in the ocean shrank more than just one organ!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:36
DK - or may I call you D? I'm getting much too informal here.

If gold stumbles above $346 I recommend a small caliber bullet behind the left ear. The gold's ear, not yours. We should be well understood in this world. I have been accused, however, of torturing my metaphors.....It's a curse.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:27
I tend to respond to specific questions by e-mail. Why bore the rest with our little lives? I'm public as thou also should be.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:26
DK I quit>(I quit):
If Gold cannot move above $346.00 friday and stay the CBs have won the war. It's over and we are too lazy minded to figure it out. What does it take to admit we loss. How about all of our funds and our childrens.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:24
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
RJ -- I thank you for the up/down scenario. I suppose it will remain true unless that rock gains orbital status and pretty much ignores gravity. A Sept contract of some year might trade again. I do agree that I don't care which way it goes. Just that it does!

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:24
to Ark to Ark>(to Ark):
hm and bmg high caliber?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:18
DK - check your mail............

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:16
ark saltedcore>(saltedcore):
Time to buy some high caliber gold stocks. Hm Abx bmg Tvx, etc

Also, I mentioned a few days ago what I thought years ago
EMU is a dog that won't hunt. So it is dead. Buy gold accordingly.
Don't worry whether or not current prices are at the low.
How long of a base line do you need? We'll see 450 gold
in the not too distant future.

Time for my warm milk and beddy by.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:13
Eldo - if I may be familiar - Just an idle speculation, that. In reply: Bend down, pick up a rock. Now throw it way up high. Wait. What happens? Life is self teaching. The best part about it is that I don't care which way it moves, as long as it moves. Therein lies the game and this one is afoot.............

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:11
D.A. - Savor the moment.
You are living a once in a lifetime dream right now.

July Silver closed today above its 18 day MA. Combine that with the
increase in the lease rates and I'm buying in the morning. It will be
my first silver contract. I guess you could call me a silver virgin
right now.

PL is a substitute for PA. Using a multiplier of 0.6 I think I rememeber
reading here. If the autos can't get PA - they will be buying PL. July PL
still has 3 to 4 weeks until 1st notice. I wonder how many of the paper
PA players jumped to PL last week? Figuring the demand would move to the
more liquid market. I'm learning more everyday - I love this game.

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:09
DK going for broke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>(going for broke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!):

RJ How would you play the PGM market friday with $38,000. risk funds?

Date: Fri Jun 06 1997 00:00
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
RJ -- What do you figure that would do to the Sept contract? Would there even be a market anymore?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:57
digger just@test>(just@test):
test. out.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:53
Could it be that someone will show up at the table and buy all the Russians have? 500 - 600 million and it's theirs. Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war........

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:47
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
RJ -- Thanks for the postings and re-postings. I appreciate them as I'm sure many others do!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:47
Mike @>(@):
Do you believe that it is really administrative difficulties which hold up the Pt/Pa supplies from Russia? How difficult can it be to administer the sale of supplies from stockpiles? This situation bears close watching. If nothing comes forth from Russia, then buy SWC.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:43
Mooney @.Ted>(@.Ted):
Can't even wait for reply! It was our 25th anniversary on June 3rd and the wife is yelling for me to come upstairs. Some things are more important than talking to my hockey buddies! :- )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:40
I need a shirt I need a shirt>(I need a shirt):
earl and/or eldo: If you wanted a list of shares that is on my bottom fishing hooks, I would post ( just feel weird posting only the few I own ) .

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:40
Mooney @.TED>(@.TED):
Ted - You're TOO much. I told you that the Red Wings were going to win BEFORE I even knew if they were going to play N.Y. or Philly and BEFORE they had even totally polished off the reining champs. - And then you go and call me out with no evidence?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:38
I need a shirt I need a shirt>(I need a shirt):
Didn't really lose much. Just impatient. Just doing some trading. Made money on CCH a few weeks ago ( small movement back and forth ) . Stocks I bought now don't get the volume to quickly move the volume of shares. I rather not say the name of the company I own now. Just companies that I really don't mind being stuck with because I feel they are good value. Just being a little impatient because the stock below and around a buck and good make a quick percentage move. Don't worry, I'm not really losing my shirt. Just funnin' and impatient.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:36
I think you will find the following a MUST READ!

For those of you turned off by my typos in the previous postings, What can I say? I was on a roll. Who has time to proofread? Stream of consciousness, no editing, posted immediately. I rely too heavily on my spell check. If you had trouble reading my little gold ditty ( I certainly did ) Here is a slightly more coherent version. These are the first messages I have ever posted to this or any other group.

June 5,1997 00:26

Look for the Russians to announce resumption of palladium shipments next week with barely enough to under satisfy current demand. Every major price move in the last two months has been preceded by announcements from Russia. Forget about production or stockpiles, they have been sellers at the highs - announce everything is OK, supplies will meet demands, and buyers at the lows - silence or cautious optimism. Who needs to produce palladium when you can pay for your low priced deliveries with massive profits from your shorts? This has been one of the most beautifully manipulated markets I have seen in the last decade. $250 palladium is a lock, probably by Friday. There will be Japanese traders jumping out of windows tonight when they find it next to impossible to cover shorts. Profit taking ( finally ) will not take it below $200. look for $275 before the month is out. For those of you worried about stockpiles, they are nearly nonexistent - 2 years max. Norilsk is operating at 25% tops. Unpaid miners dig with broken machinery. Western money is too spread out to even begin to rebuild infrastructure. Only those with hot blood and money to burn will play palladium. For those of you looking for a real play, look for platinum to repeat the 1986 - 1990 levels. The $420's will be a distant memory of bargain basement levels by August. Can platinum top $500 and stay there for awhile? Not the first time, nor the second, but it can and will. South Africa can smell the money and they will come out to play soon. $450 in June. Save this message and remember you were advised in advance.

June 5, 1997 01:48

Silver will take a run at $5.00 in the next couple weeks, if it breaks through, $5.40 soon. Gold is done for this year. $350 is screaming short and $325 may not be the low, but I doubt it will break $300. I have traded enough gold in my time to think it deserves a descent Christian burial, but that will just create a martyr. Instead, I will be respectful and kind and lay piles of straw at the bottom for a hopefully soft landing. A dear friend, so injured now, can still draw from afar, resources to breathe life where little resides, but enough to always not ignore. I know there are numerous markers out there that we may collect for the sickly yellow lass as we set heR gently on the straw. We will hear her stories and pat her nuggets. With a blown kiss and encouragement to rest easy tonight, we will depart for business.

We will sell her for her beauty,
We will sell her for her class,
We will sell her because she is
Our little golden lass.
One day true
we may buy
But for the life of us all
Who among us knows why?

I trade millions every week ( my clients $, not my own ) in the three beautiful metals with some rolls of the dice in palladium. I speak with traders on the floor, and traders up above. When I have concerns over near term disruptions in supply, We are more likely to be found having lunch and a game of darts in some mock pub with the South African Ambassador. It's nice to know what they think, and our understanding of their thoughts carry less self service than any other who propose to love and cherish through good and bad.

I’m a new guy here but I trade lots-o-metals every day. I have read these postings off and on for months with nary a desire to post but I'm having too much fun and see too much ahead to remain silent. I count among my brethren those who were compelled to buy platinum and short gold on that magical day last December when platinum dipped below gold. My true brothers were not fooled by platinum tracking gold dollar for dollar and held, and held, and hold until today when they will hold some more. $75 spread is not nearly enough to reward the courage it took to stay. Gold/platinum spread will rise to $100. It's still a play, but with some of the bottom gone, a slightly more meager one, albeit with acceptable returns. What the hell, the risk is almost nonexistent. I know I am a guest in this group, and as such I will comport myself with dignity and hope to have the same extended to me. Please do not confuse my enthusiasm and confidence for arrogance.. There comes a time in which our introduction to the world cements certain expectations. We will talk of those next time.


This is what I do for a living. Only metals, I love It. I have personally moved the market recently. 10,000 oz in a market as thin as palladium becomes a market of it’s own. Let me know if you need a no Real time, real world, no BS take on the market
June 5, 1997 02:51


It's simple. Gold will decline, silver will rise. Don't be shocked, it happens all the time. Especially with the twin specters of German & Swiss central banks wanting to re-value their gold reserves. This is all preparatory to some actual gold sales from these major countries this year. Look out for France and England. Forget about price ratios, forget about inflation or any other thing on the rest of the earth. If you believe that European central banks will forever cap gold this year, look to place some shorts. This voodoo accounting from the Swiss and Germans have cast a profane and ugly pall over the gold market. Yes! Silver will rise - gold will fall...... The best of both worlds..... show me the $.

Jun 5, 1997 03:08

There is no more a relationship between gold and the PGMs. One is trading with a dark cloud overhead with worries of convictions of high crimes and misdemeners. Silver is overdue for another .60 run. The PGMs are operating on their own fundamentals. Forget about gold and silver this time around. The current short squeeze in the PGMs is unprecedented, so we will continue to see lower gold and higher silver. You've got to believe!!!!! did you believe in peanut butter?

June 5, 1997 08:08

RE: Wall Street Journal palladium lease rates at 150%: As usual, if the WSJ prints it, it's old news. 150% was last week. 260% last night, who knows today? But what's in a lease rate when no one will lend? The mother of all short squeezes could only be in it's infancy. It will be brutal in New York today. Now we're having fun................

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:35
Front - I was not really 'thinking' - more like hoping! The reason being that I wanted the series to go at least six games if not seven - the reason being I LOVE to watch playoff games!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:31
Front: Who were the Flyers? Were they the metaphorical cream cheese? I apologize, with out a score card, I can't keep 'em straight. ..... ( :- ) )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:29
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
Front: Mooney knows nothin about hockey......

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:25
Hello Bart:

You buy and sell the PGMs and gold and silver.

Please tell us how these lease rates are effecting your buisness and are you seeing the same thing ( developing ) in Gold and silver?


Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:25
Terry @ Canada>(
Before everyone nods off for the night, have a look at this from ABN Site headlines.Do the Chinese know something?
From ABN news room at 6 June 1997 @ 1100hrs
China stops bank money into bourses...

China has unveiled plans to halt the flow of bank funds into the stock market and set a deadline for commercial banks to unwind positions on the markets. Reports say commercial banks must stop trading treasury debt repurchase agreements on the nation's two stock exchanges from today. The move is part of previously announced measures aimed at limiting financial risk. Those measures also aim to protect the banking system which has recently pumped huge amounts of cash into China's stock markets. The central bank has also banned overdrafts used for buying stocks and asked each commercial bank to investigate its own activities to ensure they are complying with regulations.

Copyright © 1996 Asia Business News. All Rights Reserved.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:20
Front @upandatum>(@upandatum):


Can you imagine if they actually drilled into someone's tomb below ground and that's why there's more gold that other metals....

Earl,... with Mooney thinking the Flyers were going to be hot, did you invite him over to help with the Litre stuff? I think he's had more than his share. And here I thought he knew his hockey. NOTHING can stop the guy from Ottawa Stevey Y !!!! ( :- ) )


Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:18
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
EBN Gold up 1.10 and Silver up 3 cents...Goodnight Too Tarnished!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:16
Fidelity Select American Gold Chart, hourly prices in percent,
seven hours ( prices ) per day, for ten days.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:16
Chris @erols>(@erols):
Has anyone talked to JD lately?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:15
MM @WW>(@WW):
I can't believe my eyes. A post from WW that actually is gold related!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:15
Did I say $554 Meant $454. I type faster than I think.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:13
ACW Bigfind>(Bigfind):
In todays London Times.

June 6 1997

Mountain find sparks gold fever in


GOLD fever hit Egypt yesterday after official confirmation of
the surprise discovery of huge deposits in an inhospitable and
remote range of hills on the border with Libya.

There is no other discovery like this in Egypt. In fact, it
could be considered a rare discovery on the world level,
Gaber Naeim, chairman of the Geological Survey of Egypt,
told the semi-official Cairo daily al-Akhbar.

The gold is in Jabal Kamel, a rocky outcrop close to the
point where the borders of Egypt, Libya and Sudan meet.
According to Mr Naeim, its quantity dwarfs all other gold
deposits found in the country of 60 million people, the most
populous in the Arab world.

After the controversy surrounding recent exaggerated
reports of gold finds in Indonesia, diplomatic and industry
sources remained wary of assessing the significance of the
Egyptian discovery until more precise data were made
available by the Cairo Government. It is too early to say
what effect, if any, this will have on the world market, one
diplomat said.

Even before the discovery put Egypt's economic prospects
into a new light, one foreign company, Pharaoh Gold Mines
of Australia, was prospecting for gold in the Eastern Desert
and planned to start production there in the middle of this
year. Six other companies were negotiating for concessions
to prospect for gold, either in the Eastern Desert or in
southern Sinai, territory recovered from Israel under the
1979 peace treaty.

The riches buried deep under Jabal Kamel came to light after
the survey sent geologists to the area to look for iron-ore
deposits. They were taken aback to find that there was more
gold than iron in the rock.

The idea was that the gold could cover part of the large
costs of exploiting the iron ore and transporting it out of this
remote area. But it later became clear that the gold was
fundamental and the iron was subsidiary, Mr Naeim said.

He gave no figures for the concentration of gold in the 185
samples his department has taken in two seasons of

But he said: The results showed that the concentration of
gold in the ore is extremely high and that the amount of ore
itself is also extremely high.

The newly found deposits are in a range of hills seven to
eight miles long and six miles across. The seams are between
13ft and 250ft thick. Under the surface of the Earth, there is
another deposit, the size of which is not yet known, Mr
Naeim said. The extent of the unexpected discovery in the
mountains sparked interest throughout the Middle East, with
experts anxious to obtain more detailed figures.

Mr Naeim said that some of the gold was inside Libya and
that Egypt had signed a deal with the Libyan authorities
specifying there should be joint exploitation of the deposits
on the border.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:06
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
Option Man -- What I said to Strad: DITTO!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:05
John Disney: Are you lurking this evening? Thanks for those posts on Db-deep and BLYDY.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:04
WW @New England>(@New England):
I think we can all agree that someday what is happening in Platinum and Palladium will happen in Silver and Gold. The ques is whether all this short selling will cause a problem for our gold companies that sell short. When is it dangerous if ever/the cos I invest in say they only have 15% of reserves sold short and that if the price rose they would love it and roll forward. Does this make sense or is this smoke. Further one co is very short near term ie double 1997 production short 390 calls with all shorts after 12/31/97 covered. Where is the risk if any whats the deal/Comments please.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:03
Option Man totally predictable>(totally predictable):
I can't beleive what I'm seeing here. Tremendous upswings in the platinum market and not a word about making money off the volatility. You're all here to figure the best way to beat the market right? The fact is you'll never do it consistently trying to guess which way its going. If you happen to guess right then you're lucky, not smart.

Volatility on the other hand is ABSOLUTELY predictable! Right now its very high in the PL market. ( So what else is new ) IT WILL GO DOWN! This is an undeniable fact. At some point the PL mkt will settle back to the boring trading ranges of before. Maybe it'll be in the 360-365 range. Maybe in the 490-500 range, makes no difference because the volatility will be way, way down.

I shorted OCT 440 PL calls today taking in $9.00 per oz premium. I will buy them back WHEN, not if, the fluctuations cool down. This is the easiest way to consistently make money in this market and I can't beleive no one's said anything.

WARNING !! -------- Selling naked calls leaves you no less exposed than shorting the contract outright.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:03


Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 23:01
I Need: Don't tell me. Let me guess. Its DKT. .... Gettin' a reaction from the flea powder. ..... ( :- ) )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:58
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
I Need -- If you enlighten us with the name of the company, perhaps there will be someone here that can provide some guidance. Personally, I don't do stocks, but many or most here do. Just ask!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:57
The slaughter of fools has begun!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:57
Duncan: You have made a point that a one or two have raised in the past. Your timing is interesting. How doe your comments fit with the BT post earlier? SA may be swing producer who pulls the wheels off of the spec short cart by pulling in some of there hedge positions. .... T'would be nice. Eh?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:52

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:51
I need a shirt I need a shirt>(I need a shirt):
Eldo. No. Just some no-volume, dog with fleas mining shares!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:49
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
I Need -- Goodwill has a few shirts cheap. But are you in futures or the physical metals? Makes a BIG difference! And if you are in futures, you better learn to 'trade'! Commissions and phone calls are dirt cheap!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:42
I need a shirt I need a shirt>(I need a shirt):
Gold and silver stink! I losing my freakin' shirt!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:37
I just looked at the NYMEX platinum contract specs. If we go limit up for two consecutive days, then the expanded daily limit schedule goes into effect. The daily limit move becomes $50/oz.

There is no limit during the current delivery month. Wow! I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of that trade!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:34
“Seven Golden Threads of the Global Quilt” by Oracle of Alberta ( CANADA )

A Virtual Eagle’s eye view of the global gold panorama. Is it a plot to create a single world currency? With the expected economic dominance of China in the 21st Century, could it be a Gold backed Yuan ( Renminbi ) An Erudite & exhaustive analysis by Oracle of Alberta:

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:33
Hi then, Hello again.
Bid price for platinum $500 this moment! Who said yesterday $100 gold/platinum spread?
Oh, I did. Sorry I underestimated. July platinum $554 at last glance, backwardization is severe.. Got out at $448, missed a couple bucks at the top but maybe there will be some profit taking tomorrow. I’ll do it again next week. Palladium bounced off $200 like a cement floor. My $204 looked pretty good at $227 in London overnight. I kept it anyway. Strong support in New York today. Palladium will gap up tomorrow. What did I say yesterday? $250 by Friday? Lease rates have reached 300%. The Russian government has suspended all fuel shipments to Norilsk. How will long suffering miners dig ore, process ore, and smelt ore with no fuel? Do you think this move was designed to drive palladium to new highs? Only the Russians have consistently demonstrated the finesse required to simply talk a market up or down. Dare I say, palladium has an outside chance of going higher than gold Those of us with the courage of our convictions are riding a righteous crest unmindful of the remaining doubts of risk gnawing the bones of our more sensible selves.

They heard me in the silver pits and responded nicely with an 11 cent trading day. Did anyone cover your gold at $339.50? Look for a bounce in sympathy with the PGMs and sell it into the basement anywhere above $346. Don’t fight the central banks. They are your friends. Do what they do. It’s easy.

Not since Tyson Foods teamed up with Hillary have industrial traders had such rotten luck. Seas of woe in Japan tonight. The lifeboats are showing no freeboard. An ocean of losses in uncovered shorts is lapping over the sides as these woebegone disbelieves of the palladium storm grimly squish their cold and wrinkled toes inside their Nikes. They will gaze at the horizon and remember fondly a time before the world turned upside down so quick. A time when up was a kinder direction. These are good men. These are brave men, whose only sin was to bite the snake once too often. The worm is out of the tunnel. The hog has turned.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:32
P.R. !!!!!!!!!!!!!>(!!!!!!!!!!!!!):
This was certainly worth coming out of hibernation for. You guys are the best.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:26
keva @westcoast>(@westcoast):
DA: I'm with you. Go get em tiger.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:18
D.A. caveat.trader>(caveat.trader):
Strad and Mrs. Strad and any little fiddles:

My thoughts on Pa are that if you own it you are long Sept futures since I doubt you are messing around in the deliverable. If I held this position I would just sit tight. Even if the spot gets sold off I don't think anything bad is going to happen to Sept. If the spot gets sold off and Sept goes down I will be buying with both hands. Right now I'm trying to manage our load in the spot market. We have sold out about 2/3 of our position. We are very, very, happy.

On the Platinum side I'm guessing that you're in July. I have absolutely no idea what is going on here although we hold a small position. Its likely to be limit up on the open tommorrow. Since this will be $50 in two days it might be nice to book a profit. Tonight's action from what I hear is being driven by delta hedging against open option positions. Platinum has a long history of major spike reversals. It would be a pity to watch a huge move evaporate. Then again it might go straight to $600. In short, I don't know. I'll try to keep you updated on the cash market, but right now there isn't one. Most odd.

Whatever you do, don't play these things from the shortside, not even for a minute. No sense dying trying to be a hero. The playing field is currently littered with the bodies of would be heros.

Sorry I haven't replied to your email but I've been in around the clock mode of late. All is well with my family.

Best Regards,

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:17
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
EBN Gold up 1.15 and Silver up 3 cents....Employment report tomorrow!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:15
MoreGold @Let this be it !>(@Let this be it !):
D.A.: 525. on platinum, something big must be happening.
What will the exchanges do tomorrow? I would assume some traders are
sitting on some large short positions, thinking this rally isn't for real.
This reminds me of an incident @ 4 months ago when a friend wanted to
buy 3 ozs. of platinum at a large retail precious metals dealer. The said they had 1 oz. in stock and couldn't say when they would get more.
The bar charge was $40. above spot.
I wonder how many bars you could find tomorrow.....
Platinum is @ 23 times as rare as Gold, and could have a long way to go yet. To top things off the boom in PC sales is causing more demand as
platinum is required in chip manufacture.
Looks like Gold is the poor mans platinum for now, but for how much longer?
I was going to hold off on buying more Gold calls, hoping for a pullback
but I may jump the gun tomorrow. Merrill Lynch, get ready to write some
more calls........

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:15
panda @?>(@?):
Does anybody have access to NYMEX Access quotes for PL and PA?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:13
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
BMI shows a high of 347.2 in august gold happening recently! But now at 346.1 last.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:04
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
Strad -- Change 'trending market' to 'UP-trending market'! A descending market trend can certainly be shorted.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 22:02
6pak true @ true>(true @ true):
Earl @ 21:17 Right on Earl, this person arrived at this site, innocently, yes, with a distorted view & bad living habits.

Now, Agents abound, conspiracy is rampant, Trade Agreements, Central Banks, International Bankers, on and on, Hell, I thought I would use due diligence, and investigate the potential of Gold, as an investment. Then it leads to Government, and crack pots, drugs, manipulation. etc.

Gold is not easy to understand. Nor, are those that follow the Gold, and all of its ramifications. Seven Months at this site, and I am getting
frustrated. There appears to be many more questions, then answers.
I get myself on the wrong side of the moves in Gold. But, that is the design of those that control this metal eh ! ha, ha, ha,

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:59
tarnished @Dinghy on ice>(@Dinghy on ice):
M. Graves: Ediot!....What's not to like?!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:58
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
EBN Gold up 1.10 and Silver up 3 cents....fer shame Mr.Tarnished!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:56
panda @review>(@review):
I was just reviewing the DJ headlines for the day when I came across a good one.

AIG International denies rumor of default on NYMEX Palladium.

That headline was posted at 12:42 P.M. E.D.T. by Dow Jones. Is this twilight zone stuff or what?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:55
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Strad -- If I may comment: #1 ) As Dr. Doom says, She will never short a trending market! I agree! That would be a very fine way to put you butt in a frying pan! No one knows where it can/will go to. You might sell, but until the day comes when the trend has really turned, I certainly would not be shorting it! #2 ) If D.A.s' news of 525 bid on the platinum is real, then there will be at least two more days of limit up moves in that metal! Do not sell yourself short. It should give some 'wriggle' before it tops out! Good trading!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:54
TED @tarnished>(@tarnished):
Tarnished: What a vicious unprovoked attack on the CEO of Cow Bay Productions...fer shame...fer shame..

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:50
tarnished @Dinghys on ice>(@Dinghys on ice):
Mooney: What game are you watching
The Flyers never had the lead!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:50

I'm getting more and more bullish on gold as the days go by. I will still wait for a signal from my system, but when I see one I will jump big. Whats going on in the white metals is symptomatic of the gigantic transition that is underway. As has been documented here over the last several days, the swing of the political pendulum is gathering great momentum. Just when central banks should be on the alert for world wide syncronous growth with attendant inflation risks they are being politically bludgeoned. Their hands are tied and the blindfolds are in place. Combine this with 17 years of deflationary expectations which have caused inventories to be considered useless baggage and you have a very volatile brew. I don't know if the white metal move will be the catalyst but it may well be. If it comes to GM having to shut down production or come to terms with Tiger fund, a very large light bulb is going to go off in the minds of many purchasing managers throughout the world. The point that inventories have real economic value is going to be driven home in spectacular fashion. This may cause a fevered restocking which will drive commodity prices and growth wild. This will also be the death knell for the financial markets. Somewhere in the ensuing melee the yellow metal will catch fire. Where as the Palladium market can accomodate very few players and very little money, we all know that the gold market can be accessible to the masses. If it rises they will come. Reading today's posts their is such a feeling of gloom here about gold and the XAU that it is a lock that gold is going higher now. Forget $340. No way. This bull market started a few months back at $336. The first good leg is about to get underway. We are going to put the precious back into these metals.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:43
Strad Master PA & PL to the moon!>(PA & PL to the moon!):
D.A. In your 20:53 post you wrote, If there is a sharp selloff when Tiger comes to terms or the Russians begin delivering, buy it. I'm not clear as to exactly what you mean. If Tiger or the Russians actually deliver the prices will instantly drop, right? 'Buy it' means: 1 ) sell and go short or 2 ) sell, wait for it to dip, and re-purchase on the turnaround to the upside? My wife and I don't agree on what you mean. I say #1 she says #2. In the interest of domestic tranquility I eagerly await you reply. I still managed to hold on to 120 oz's of PL and 700 oz's of PA despite getting whipsawed out of 11 PA positions on the big drop last week. Now I really want to know how best to play it. Anyway, many thanks in advance. I'll be back later.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:38
Paul Friend of Duke's>(Friend of Duke's):
Duke of Earl... I have to admit you have some erudite posts tonight.
Surely must be that California merlot. Or perhaps your holding some
palladium you forgot to tell us about?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:37
NJ wild times>(wild times):
D.A. gold and silver are moving too, but no one else has access to pl and pa prices except that DGSE shows limit move up foe pa. would you please keep us posted.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:35
Duncan S.A. Hedging - the KEY>(S.A. Hedging - the KEY):
Hedging by South African marginal mines

1 ) The unemployment rate in South Africa is in the order of 40% ( thats right, forty ) .
2 ) The gold mines are an important source of employment - a not insignificant number are employed by 'marginal mines' i.e., mines where mining costs are around or below the ruling gold price. It is clearly important to keep these marginal mines operating to prevent a deterioration in the employment situation - this would exacerbate the crime and violence in the country which is already of heroic proportions. HENCE HEDGING. The hedging in turn causes the depressed gold price - somehow, prevailing 'forces' ( who or whatever these forces are unknown to me ) have determined a price range of 340 to 350.

The question is - will the South Africans take the risk ( of the cessation of gold hedging ) ? Possible outcomes:

1 ) Gold price rises rapidly and prevents mine closures.
2 ) Continued Central Bank sales nullify effect of cessation of South African hedging activities - gold price remains depressed leading to mine closures - the ensuing deterioration in the employment situation may well result in social mayhem ( in South Africa ) .

Will South Africa stop the hedging? I don't know - do any of you?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:34
6pak MAI Knowledge @ If interested>(MAI Knowledge @ If interested):
MAI Agreement details:

Privatization item:
Alternative 2
# 56 [ Special share holding arrangements including, inter alia,
a ) The retention of Goldenshares by Contracting Parties,
b ) Stable shareholder groups assembled by Contracting Parties,
c ) management/employee buyouts, and
d ) ** voucher schemes for members of the public **
hold strong potential for discrimination against foreign investors and are, infact, inconsistant with National Treatment and MFN treatment obligations in many instances ]

Canada,Germany,United Kingdom,Sweden,Spain,Czech Republic,France,Japan,
UsofA,Norway, Hungary etc.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:34
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
EBN Gold up 1.0 and Silver up 4 cents....Detroit Red Army 4-1 over Flyers early in second period...

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:30
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
DGSE now has gold up 1.20 and silver up a nickle! Maybe the P metals move is catching on!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:30
WW @New England>(@New England):
As A Liberal/Left wing politico I know discouragement, and Kitco ( re my disparaged political views ) is just another example but it does not in the least effect my commitment to the progressive cause. Same commitment Re Gold & Silver ie dont give up the fight we are right and will eventually be proven so Gold will rise and the short sellers will rue the day. The problems in platinum and palladium are indicative and perhaps predictive. Our day is coming soon!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:26
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Earl -- Perhaps you are correct in that! A few 25 dollar limit days in platinum beats the hell out of a couple dollar move in gold! HAR!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:17
Eldo: Methinks we should all undergo a transformation and become platinum bugs or palladium bugs. HL Mencken once said: Sin should be left to the congenitally sinful, who know when to touch it and when to leave it alone. ......... I'm beginning to think the same thing about gold. Some of us are not congenital goldbugs. We come to it, innocently, as a result of a distorted view of the world and bad living habits. We should just leave the damn thing to those so genetically inclined...... ( :- ) )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:09
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
FWIW, Dallas Gold and Silver Exchange ( DGSE ) currently shows platinum up 25.00 at 461.60. Previous close at 436.60. Also now shows gold up .70.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:09
Mooney: I don't even know how to respond. .... Hand me bagel and pass the cream cheese? ...... actually does sound good. Nah! wouldn't go with the cheap red wine. ..... ( :- ) )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 21:00
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
D.A. -- You think this is also what we have to look forward to also in gold?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:59
6pak Team @ isn't playing>(Team @ isn't playing):
Mooney: My team isn't playing *MONTREAL*

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:56
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
EBN gold up 50 cents. Silver up 3 cents.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:53
Byron @ LIMITS:>(@ LIMITS:):
Business news article I just read on Yahoo stated that Platinum reached its $25.00 move limit today. Hmmmm, I wonder how high it would have gone if there was no limit?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:53
D.A. wild.times>(wild.times):
To All:

Last I heard a few minutes back platinum was up to around $475. Pa is $225 bid. The forward, lending and option markets have completely shutdown. Cash market spreads are $20 wide in platinum and $10 wide in Pa. Small amounts of metal can move the market a long way. There are a lot of very stressed out people. The biggest losers in the Pa market are going to be the commercial users. I know of a midsize refiner that is plum out of metal and needs to turn it into catalytic converters. We may not be too far away from the point where the politicians get involved. If GM wakes up one morning and finds that the assembly lines must grind to a halt because of no Pa it will be quite interesting. My guess is that sometime within the next month or two there will be a workout between Tiger Fund and the big commercial users of Pa. Until this happens the markets will be totally wild. Never underestimate how far out of hand these things can get. As I guessed a week or two back the next run is going on in Pt because this is the only substitute for Pa. It is looking more and more like the Russians are done with stockpile sales and will only deliver from current production. If this is the case about 2.0 MM ounces of demand will have to be rationed through price. This will keep the price of Pa high for many moons to come. Right now people believe that this is a squeeze that is a short blip and will terminate soon and things will get back to some semblance of order and prices will retreat sharply. This is clearly evidenced by the Sept Pa futures trading $50 below spot. If there is a sharp selloff when Tiger comes to terms or the Russians begin delivering, buy it. The Palladium stocks are great buys hear because no one believe this rally has legs.
Just got a call that the Platinum, and Palladium are shut down. No dealers making markets, last Platinum $525 bid. Got to run. More Later.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:51
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
6pak -- I might also add that it sounds more like the 'black market agreement' where the only way a company might be able to conduct its business if prices were to 'exceed' the agreements' prices, or rise, would be to conduct their purchases/sales 'off market'. Very dangerous to 'free markets' should this be implemented! It might also hail in the 'empty shelf' syndrome!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:50
Bob @...HK$ to become Yuan ?>(@...HK$ to become Yuan ?):
Anuone know about the financial status of the HK$ after July 1st ? My take is that the Reds will use HK as a front to privatize and recapitalize the mainland economy through solicitations of western capital investment - the story story economy. Wouldn't it be interesting if the West poured dollars into China while - at the same time - the Reds poured surplus dollars into gold reserves ? Just a thought.


Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:46
Hawk @home>(@home):
Mooney. Hawk is watching ice and metals.

What's the cup made ofAnyone know?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:46
Byron @ Finally the Ninth:>(@ Finally the Ninth:):
On the June Futures Gold contract with today intraday low, I got a confirmation of the 9th wave down from the March, l997 top. That is we had a series of lower lows. See The symbol for the chart is gcm7 ...Also I looking for a break above 153.00 on the HUI and 106.20+ on the XAU to confirm a resumption of the bull move up in both of these indexes. April 24, l997 for the XAU still stands as the low and end of the bear market for the gold stocks which began in early 1996.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:38
Hawk - If you got time to watch the six o'clock news - how come you ain't got time to watch the game? OH NO - Federov has just put Detroit in the lead - un assisted! This time I'm SERIOUS - C YA!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:38
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
6pak -- The free-for-all investment in gold would do exactly what BT has said. The commodity would simply stop trading at the same time the actual physical commodity couldn't be had. Perhaps that's one of the reasons they want to get this 'implemented'! So 'those' paper traders and loaners won't bite the BIG ONE! The same might also be said of a lot of other paper out there also. IMHO.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:35
Hold your tickets - all bets are off. Philly just took the lead on a power play goal. ( six pack - if you're in Canada, why ain't you watchin the game? ) Besides which if you had of asked me before the game I would have said Philly tonight. ( They have got to win a few as I predicted Detroit in seven - Right? ) Oh no - Stevie scores a big come back goal - all tied up 1-1. C U L8R

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:33
Hawk @inco>(@inco):
That should of been Hawk, not Haw..... sorry

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:30
Haw @Inco>(@Inco):

I saw it on CBC news at 6:00 pm. The news segment also talked about the economic impact on Sudbury Ont.
A long strike is very possible. No talks are scheduled.
Workers were also interviewed. They want some of the big INCO dollars.
Inco has not offered a wage increase. Only better pension plan.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:27
6pak MAI @ Canada>(MAI @ Canada):
MAI ( Multilateral Agreement on Investment ) prepared by O.E.C.D.

Although MAI was scheduled for ratification by the USofA Senate this fall, it has not yet been released to the public. It has been drafted virtually in secret over the last two years and has had almost no coverage in the press. ( Canada election, not mentioned )

The government wants it signed and the less said about it the better.
One section references, something about not allowing free-for-all investment to hurt too much. ( Gold, maybe eh! )

Also: No sovereign government ( for next 15 years ) would have the right to give any regulatory advantage to the firms that are based in that government's own country.

The MAI agreement, negotiated queitly by government and trade representatives of the 29 richest nations, is designed to free the flow of investment capital and profits.

Well guys, what will this do for gold. Are we in a free market. The rules have changed, how will one, take advantage of such happenings.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:24
Earl - It's time you took a break from your deeper ruminations ( ? ) . What's it gonna be tonight Philly ( creamcheese ) or Detroit ( BBQ wings ) ?
Since you're usually right about everything else I'll take your judgement on rthis one and give Ted 2-1 odds. ( Of course if you pick Detroit he still won't take the odds! )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:16
Hawk @ Inco publicaly announced that they want to create a shortage to
boost their share value.
Could you post the pertinant article?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:13
Little Pete @tarnished>(@tarnished):
Tarnished: You is a very mean old man and my daddy don't like you!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:13
M.Graves @ Valley>(@ Valley):
Hey Ted : I think tarnished likes Eddie!!! The Gold index on the TSE had a nice move today, maybe opinion is starting to shift. I think BT stands for Big Turd !!! The Flyers better pull one out or it's lights out!!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:09
TED @stanleycup>(@stanleycup):
Once again 340 has all we need is a Flyers victory!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:04
Hawk @Inco>(@Inco):
Inco Strike...

Seems that Inco wants to create a shortage in metals.
Inco is one of the biggest mines in Canada. ( nickel & copper )
With a lot of talk of shortages in metals including gold already, there is going to be massive amounts of information about the effects of this strike from the media.

The whole city is driven by Inco's money.
Approx. 5000 workers on strike. This strike could spark the metals.
The workers have been out 2 days now and with the XAU's activity today, could it be because of the strike at INCO?

Inco publicaly announced that they want to create a shortage to boost their share value.

I feel all metals are getting lots of news creating hunger pains in the investors.


Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:02
GFD: Your comments refreshed/recalled a past reading of the British experience and the Boxer rebellion. Two points come to mind.

1. Those events ocurred little more than 100 years ago. That is far from ancient history in a western sense and even more certainly in a Chinese context. After all, the age of Confucious was 3500 years ago and his influence is as palpable as if it were yesterday.

2. In addition to the other offenses you outlined, the British were also responsible for the introduction of opium into China. To the Brits it was one helluva profitable venture. The Brits were committed to continuing the enterprise and the Chinese protested. To no avail. In end, the Chinese found no other avenue to its discontinuance and subsequently rebelled.

Your comments make a lot of sense.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:02
I'm confused about the backwardization in Pa. Would someone please
help me out ( even all you lurkers - I'll even withhold your name from
anything you send me ) .
The standard reason given for the out-months in PA being less then June
is that the supply will be available then. I say so what!! The supply
is fine right now for the right price. Why would anyone think
Russia is going to sell their PA for less in two or three months?
Debeers is the perfect example for them. They keep the supply of the
product at just the right level to get their price.

This whole arguement is only valid if Russia has PA to sell - which I'm
not convinced of anyway. But assuming they do - why do people think
they are going to sell it for $170 in September? When they can get $200+
in June.

Is this a case where the money is just sitting in the corner waiting for
someone to come over and pick it up? Mr. Rogers?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 20:01
I'm confused about the backwardization in Pa. Would someone please
help me out ( even all you lurkers - I'll even withhold your name from
anything you send me ) .
The standard reason given for the out-months in PA being less then June
is that the supply will be available then. I say so what!! The supply
is fine right now for the right price. Why would anyone think
Russia is going to sell their PA for less in two or three months? Debeers is the perfect example for them. They keep the supply of the
product at just the right level to get their price.

This whole arguement is only valid if Russia has PA to sell - which I'm
not convinced of anyway. But assuming they do - why do people think
they are going to sell it fo

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 19:54
TED @Spudmaster>(@Spudmaster):
Spud Master ( 18:44 ) Right on! What a bunch of juvenile crap!..

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 19:39
George S. Cole: Thanks for that last post. It put another piece in place for me. I previously had not realized/understood that 'users' would actively borrow or lease in anticipation of lower prices.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 19:38
I hear the DOW is seeking licencing for options, anyone have anything on this?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 19:35
tarnished @Dinghy>(@Dinghy
TED: I have no affiliation to that lazy shiftless fat sociallist drug smoking pig of an Ediot what continues up...I hope
and the Wings win again, however a loss would make fer a better series.
As long as Stevie pulls a couple points.
You should take Ediot to a game, maybe we'll get lucky and he'll take a slapshot to the head, might even hear his two brain cells bump one another!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 19:28
GFD The 8th Thread>(The 8th Thread):
Earl: Suppose that 7 Threads is basically sound ( although I too squirm a bit ) . How do you suppose the Chinese would react to it?

The reunification of Hong Kong does have considerable patriotic meaning to China as it redresses an ancient humiliation. What is not so widely known is the fact that China was also forced to accept foreign currency rather than gold for it's exports at that time - another humiliation.

Now suppose we have the one world currency shaping up and whatever else the Chinese may think of it they know that it will not be a Chinese currency. They will most likely look at this as an attempt to pre-empt or mitigate the emergence of a dominant Chinese economy in the 21st century by western interests.

One response would be to ignore or opt out of the plans afoot. But a more satisfying approach perhaps would be to hijaack those plans. Suppose that what triggers the hypothetical financial apocolapse required for a one world currency is an explosion in the price of gold. And suppose the one world currency is a gold backed Yuan.

This is one scenario that would explain exactly what Big Trader may really be up to with his allegedly massive accumuation of physical gold.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 19:25
George S. Cole The Whites>(The Whites):
LGN on the whites:


Palladium market makers tried to establish order in their market. However,
we remain of the opinion that the end of an acute shortage of the rare white
metal, which has caused recent price swings, depends mainly on Russia
resuming delayed exports.

We have heard that that a measure to help the market forward rates will be
put in place, but only on a ``quote suggestion'' basis. Namely, there has
been no absolute contractual commitment determined as of yet. This measure
tries to address the issue of dealers who have stopped quoting forward rates
for palladium after the cost of borrowing skyrocketed to 300% for 1-month

Out of interest, you should know that market-makers are under obligation to
quote spot rates; however, although they have traditionally done so, they do
not need to state forward rates for platinum group metals.

Market players borrow metal, rather than buy, when they think high prices
will not last -- an issue that could arise again either when Russia
re-starts exporting, or when speculative funds sell out their positions.

Lack of Russian supplies has been compounded by speculative buying by
investment funds. According to our sources, the U.S. Tiger Management Fund
holds 1.5 million ounces of palladium. However, funds have to maneuver this
situation very carefully, if they are to have a profitable position at all.
Indeed, they are reluctant to become sellers, since each time they have
offered small metal amounts, prices started to fall abruptly.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 19:22
lurker @the trader>(@the trader):
South African mines are heavily hedged and are therefore very short gold. Big Trader has implied in his last two posts that S.A. is now aware of the problem, and will attempt to unwind their hedges. If only it be true....

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 19:22
Glenn AUAG>(AUAG):
An interesting Gold Graph!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 19:10
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
Tarnished: Here you are again...The weather is quite nice thank you...We peaked at 42 ( F ) and it's been all downhill since then and just think in 17 days the days will start gettin shorter...and shorter..until we plunge into total darkness...What's yer take on tonight Gold up or down?..Flyers or Red Army ( yer and Ediot's team ) ....

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 19:02
More Gold: With a spread like that, there was no room for widows and orphans. Not real good for a daytrade either. Wait till gold begins to trade with an equal spread. It will guarantee that many will be left at the station too frightened to jump on board. .... Going long, knowing that you have make $25 just to get even, takes real conviction. ...... Glenn. Are ready for those days?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 18:56
RT @balanced budget>(@balanced budget):
We now have a balance budget officially endorsed by our lovely Congress ( USA ) ....thank god....our children are saved!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 18:49
MoreGold @Moves>(@Moves):
Platinum had a + $25. day.
Gold needs a couple of + $25. days.
Anythings possible - who would have thought 2.5 months ago when platinum was around 355. that it would be bidding $430. and asking $ it did today.
Keep the faith.....

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 18:48
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
I'm expecting an early move up to/about 346.5-347 August gold in the A:M. It would be most splendid if it did a lot more than that! Thereafter, I don't know yet. Just have to wait and see how it reacts at whatever 'that' level winds up being. It 'shouldn't' correct back below the 344.8 area without meaning it IMHO.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 18:46
All: Last nite I had the good sense to visit Vronsky's site and read Oracle's Seven Threads before calling it a nite. Oracle has knitted together many of the loose ends that we have been discussing on this site for many months. The seventh thread initially violated my inherent disregard for devil theories. That is: That the world is controlled by 12 gnomes in Zurich. Or some such.

However, when put in the context of his entire piece, Oracle may be closer to the truth than many us may be willing to admit. Especially when we think about the clear manipulation in the gold market. Aided, abetted and encouraged by monetary authorities. An activity which we didn't even consider as a possibility until some months ago. Now we find such was indeed the case. And it is only one example, though closest to our hearts.

In short, the stakes are so high for nations and fiat monetary systems that only a fool would discount, out of hand, his final conclusions. It is truly a well thought out piece of work and a first rate read.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 18:44
Spud Master what a pile of nonsense>(what a pile of nonsense):
I've heard such nonsense before. BT sounds like Orwell's Big Brother - a made-up nobody whom a handful promote & laud in order to gain sway through opinion. A cold, hard look at BTs text reveals it to be as general as Nostradomus' one-size fits all prognostications. For my money, I'll bet BT is Mr. Vronsky.


Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 18:20
Front: I'm already drinking quarts. Thats the problem. ...... ( :- ) )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 18:19
They say everyone has a rhetorical pattern which positively identifies a person. Well, I think I know who BIG TRADER is. There is only one other person I know who is able to speak in such characteristically cryptic terms. And that is Alan Greenspan answering questions from Congressional Committees. HEY! Who knows - even he has to have a way to unwind - to get his kicks, so to speak. We razz him nearly daily at Kitcos, so maybe this is his way of getting even.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 18:18
Glenn AUAG>(AUAG):
Well I wasn't going to post anything tonight but ....
Anyway I know everyone wants to hear some great stories but to tell you the truth they have a fan at the exchange and it moves back and forth plowing air on the traders. Well I've caught myself a cold and I believe it is from this fan. COMEX moves to a new building after the July 4th holiday and someone said that they did not like the fans either but not to worry because when we move they we not be there. I was sniffling all day and felt awful.

So about Gold. I knew that the move was over extended yesterday but I did not expect such a big move overall. The fact that we closed on the highs above $345 bodes well for tomorrow. I'm not sure how high this is going, ( I'm sick and I'm going to bed early and I'll wake up early and figure it out then ) but my gut says maybe $1.50 or so and that is it. Also with platnuim up as much as it was no doupt that had an influence on Gold and I do not know platnuim that great but if it opens lower then the rally in Gold may have even less to go. I hate to sound like the commentators on CNBC but a close below $340 is very bearish and a close above $350.0 is bullish. I was able to catch some of the move up today when I saw the XAU up over 2 points and gold was only up $0.20 or so. It just hit me that the low had been made. Unfortuniotly I got out of my Long to quickly. Oh well, like I said I was feeling awful today. More this weekend.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 17:37
Auric @home>(@home):

Speaking of Hong Kong, will they continue to have
their currency pegged to the US dollar?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 17:34
tarnished in out of the rain>(in out of the rain):
TED: Not a bad day fer ABX, but PDG seemed to be the big winner today.
How's da weather?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 17:23
Hong Kong is as a great flowing river that has reached
the ocean of her birth. They fear her no more. But a
great “Noble House” has come out of these waters
and it will not fail. Bring London’s problems to us, one
by one and they shall be dealt with.
If they have no fear then let them look behind as
South Africa has drawn her sword. Many will
soon loose their heads in a mad rush to find
“real gold”!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 17:19
vronsky Preordained Precious Metals Implosion: GOLD & SILVER>(Preordained Precious Metals Implosion: GOLD & SILVER):
ALL: IN REFERENCE TO TED BUTLER'S 15:04 POST ( default fears ) -
In light of the explosive rise of PLATINIM & PALLADIUM in recent days, it behooves us ALL to reread Guest Guru Ted Butler's extraordinary and daring letter actually sent to The Federal Reserve Board and The U.S. Treasury Department ( ATT: Greeenspan & Rubin ) . The letter is a lengthy indepth analyis of the Central Bank's dangerous and dubious practice of Gold Loans ( leases ) , and its eventual and inevitable dire financial consequences. In essence - and IMO - it is a FAST-FORWARD of what is in store for the GOLD and SILVER markets. To read his letter:

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 17:11
Front @upandatum>(@upandatum):


The power of the Canadian Metric system has struck once more my friend. Decimal Trading coming to a stock near you !!

Next you'll be drinking LITRES rather than quarts of your favorite substances ...... BUT don't worry, a Litre is a hell of a lot bigger than any pint you've ever had !!!! ( :- ) )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 17:10
Earl - If the ask was $470 your bid of $400 sounds realistic to me, but fpr sure I would rather have the $370's for $600! Seems to me we had afew other experts around here besides Glenn who were very knowledgable about the options. Since things seem to be heating up I hope they return and enlighten us. My prediction, ( many months ago ) , that a Platinum over Gold spread might pay off handsomely has finally born mega fruit. Soon ( this week? ) will be the time to cash in. Take advice from the many but make your own call!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 16:39
CHEROKEE.....See if your source can sell a few more Dec98 $370s@60....I can use a few dozen wrapped or plain......

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 16:37
GLENN-- We want to hear about your day today !!! :- )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 16:36
Cherokee: Were your option numbers related to a 'mini' contract of some sort. If your quoted numbers were for a standard 100 Oz contract they should have been $600 per option rather than $60. As posted yday I bought some Dec 98 400s at 400 yday.

For those unfamiliar with them damned options, try not ever to buy at market. Put in a bid and be willing to let it ride for awhile. Yday the offer was $470 per option, I put in a bid of $400 and was surprised to get a fill withing an hour. ... should have put in an even lower bid.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 16:30
George s. Cole Big Trader>(Big Trader):
Note that today's wild upside action occurred right after Big Trader's latest post. Coincidence? I don't think so. Big Trader must be taken seriously.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 16:21
George S. Cole risk/reward ratios>(risk/reward ratios):

You are absolutely right about gold stock risk/reward ratios. They have never been better. For the big gold mutual funds such as FSAGX and FSPMX, I can see 200%-300% upside potential over the next 12-18 months if bullion goes to $500 as I expect, versus perhaps another 10% on the downside if bullion drops to $325 before taking off, which now seems very unlikely.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 16:21
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
Duncan ( 16:10 ) Farenheit my 30-40 MPH winds whippin off the chilly North Atantic...not a bad beach day fer here...Hey how bout that we's goin decimal in 2000...

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 16:20
George S. Cole risk/reward ratios>(risk/reward ratios):

You are absolutely right about gold stock risk/reward ratios. They have never been better. For the big gold mutual funds such as FSAGX and FSPMX, I can see 200%-300% upside potential over the next 12-18 months if bullion goes to $500 as I expect,versus perhaps another 10% on the downside if bullion drops to $325 before taking off, which now seems very unlikely.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 16:10
Duncan TED - ? @ Beach>(TED - ? @ Beach):
TED - is that celsius of farenheit? - either way, my commiserations!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:59
APH ....>(....):
Sorry, that was a strike of 370.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:56
APH ================>(================):
Cherokee - I just checked the price of the Dec 98 Comex Gold Calls 100 oz. they quoted me 11.80 or $ 1,180 per option. Which options are you speaking of?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:41
TED @toted>(@toted):
To Ted ( 15:25 ) Thanks Bro!...Tort: We made contact!....Tomorrow is the biggie...The employment report....XAU up 2.83 and the temperature is 39!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:38
cyclist spot @gold>(spot @gold):
FYI ,Gold spot 343.45.It is going to be interesting on the Asian markets.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:27
Jack Silver>(Silver):

Yahoo article on Palladium ( June 4 6:13 PM EDT ) . Check
very end of it --talk in the past few days of a player
looking to borrow 50 million ounces of silver.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:25
To Ted @Barry 'fortucast' Rosen>(@Barry 'fortucast' Rosen):
Fortucast Market Timing, Inc. PO Box 2066 Fairfield, IA 52556 ( 515 ) -472-6866

Barry Rosen, the founder of Fortucast Market Timing, began the service in
with a monthly timing newsletter titled Investor's Fortucast. Mr. Rosen has
M.A.'s from the University of Illinois and Indiana University, and has taught
at the University of Iowa. Fortucast is registered as a CTA with the CFTC.
Barry advises nearly a thousand clients through hotlines, fax services and

Barry focuses on 23 markets in his publications, and his eclectic market
timing methodology includes Gann, Elliott Wave, and unique cyclical timing
devices based on the work of Gann. Barry has published numerous articles in
Trader's World, and the NCGR Journal on the relationships of geocosmic cycles
to timing the markets.

Email address:


Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:17
Byron @ Fall Out>(@ Fall Out):
Dow losing some of its luster and taken some of the juice out of XAU.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:16
lurker500 @fakeout or breakout-doesnt really matter>(@fakeout or breakout-doesnt really matter):
Irregardless of whether or not the run up in the XAU is a fakeout breakout or not, I still like it. Even if it is a fakeout, its hard to believe at this point that any subsequent decline would be to new lows. risk/reward seems reasonable to me at least.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:13
MoreGold @calls>(@calls):
Clarification: Dec/97 call 380.-strike was 1.00
and Dec/97 call 370.-strike was 1.80.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:09
Byron @ Heads Up!!!>(@ Heads Up!!!):
Missiles coming in at 12:00 o'clock ( PST ) . XAU at the high of the day. 101.64 +3.53

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:08
TED @cherokee>(@cherokee):
Cherokee: I know this has been mentioned before but the short-term memory ain't what it used to be ...Does Barry Rosen have a site on the net

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:05
Novice @NAP (North American Palladium) Time?>(@NAP (North American Palladium) Time?):
Several queries about North American Palladium noted here lately.... For a start on some info, I've posted a couple of URLs on Kitco-II.

Hi Ted! Glad my goose made it to NDP heaven...

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:04
MoreGold @Gold options>(@Gold options):
Cherokee, are you talking futures options? I was quoted 180. for the
97/Dec Gold Calls. It's 1.80 per ounce. Dec/97's were 1.00 per ounce.
I agree with you this is a steal at current levels, even if Gold still hasn't bottomed?
The risk is losing your premium, and the upside is open......
Meryl Lynch, keep on writing those calls.....

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:04
ted butler default fears>(default fears):
The failure of the palladium lease and forward market ( yahoo biz story at 11:59 ) amid 300% rates and default fears was preordained. Just as the coming failure and defaults in metal lease markets in platinum, gold and silver are preordained. While it is impossible to predict when, it is not difficult to predict that there will be a similar outcome because of the very nature of metal leases. Because you must have a deficit consumption pattern for metal leases to exist in the first place, and because the loaned metal is being consumed as an integral part of the loan, it is only a matter of time before the parties involved realize there is nothing to repay the loans with. The only way for the loans to be repaid would be if a surplus pattern developed, and that could only happen with sharply higher prices and much time.

While it is thought that CBs have much gold to lend, when they realize that they will not be repaid, they will move to call in their loans. Very few will come out whole.

It is also annoying, and I suppose par for the course, that the same story broached the subject of manipulation in the sharp rise for palladium. As is common knowledge, manipulation only exists to the upside. A related story at 12:26, listed the amount of palladium and platinum held in the U.S. Defense stockpile, as the shorts were starting to eye that as an answer to their ill-conceived shorts and loans - doesn't that make you feel good. Just a warm up for gold and silver.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 15:03
bw A question:>(A question:):
I recently said to my wife that it was time to lay in some gold. She looked at necklaces while I picked up some krands for the grandkids. I paid a few percent over spot for the krands. She ended up picking out a 60 gram piece that looks stunning on her. We paid about 300% over spot for the necklace. Of course since gold is such a good buy she told me there were a few other pieces she desired. I winced and told her I would get her some krands or even some beatiful eagles. She told me, I can not wear a coin.

I constantly read of 10% to 20% markups on jewellery sold in the mideast and asian markets. Perhaps our jeweller friends could tell us why the large markup here? Can you imagine the jewerlly demand here in the usa with even say a 50% markup? Perhaps someone does not want a gold demand component that even the central banks might have trouble filling at 350 an ounce. We are constantly told the global economy is bringing the benefits of global competition to all markets. This does not seem to be the case with gold jewerlly in this country. I wonder if Rubin et al have any insight on this?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:56
cyclist short@positions>(short@positions):
FWIW short positions are building up in the gold/platinum spreads.
This forebodes high volatility when positions has to be covered,
Fireworks,you bet.This could become a hot June and July.
Next targets for July Platinum 450 and 480 in that order, with the spread
in the order of 100 /120.Gold would top out between 350 and 370.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:55
yellowdog @dreaming>(@dreaming):
Whats that saying: plan your work and work your plan or something of that sort.....anyway, to each his own. As long as you have a strategy and the perserverance to stick to it if you believe in it or the guts to change it when you need to.

BTW: how many of you are looking at platinum with amazement and closing your eyes wishing it was the yellow metal and if there will ever be a day we goldbugs ( at least the new ones ) will be able to sit back and gleefully watch our wealth multiply that rapidly. ( not RJ, thats for sure )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:54
vronsky P-L-A-T-I-N-U-M>(P-L-A-T-I-N-U-M):

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:51
cherokee @roller-coaster>(@roller-coaster):
gold dec '98 call options with a strike of $370.00,
are $60.00 each!!

this is how you stay and play with the big boys, you
can touch them, but they cannot touch you.

risk is set at time of option purchase. an entire year to
control 100 ozs. of gold for $60.00 + broker fee!!

this is a buy. these puppies will see the same action
as platinum and palladium are currently seeing.

buy one or two per month as they become available. this will
ensure you are in with both feet when the inevitable happens.
no guru can predict when, or how. these insurance policies ( cheap options )
are your guarantee of success in a market that is not subject to
normal supply and demand. when control is finally wrested from their taskmasters, it will be as if the west were opened for squatters again.
the stampede will be incredible, as billions of dollars begin flowing
from paper assets to tangible, physical assets. the available
warehoused stocks vs. the billions of dollars that will flow into
the metals, will cause the highest prices in history. options at $60.00
could easily command 100K or more! who cannot afford to invest $110.00
per month, for this kind of potential return? historically, this is a good bet. fundamentally, this is a good bet. technically, this is a
good bet.

sounds like a good bet to me, and rosen WILL PAY sooner, or later!!
my insurance policies are in effect in gold, silver, crude-oil, and

you carry insurance policies on your property betting against the
elements, and man-made disasters. why not use the same technique
for futures? the only exception being, the tremendous POTENTIAL
for profit? let these cheap insurance policies PAY YOU. they will
pay, if you play, using YOUR mind to make YOUR own decisions.

who knows when all the ascribed to events ( that we all know are coming )
will actually arrive? your insurance policies will make you wealthy,
and help ROSEN to work for a living. the scavengers, and short sellers
will wake-up in a bottom-less pool of ink, with the LONG-finned sharks
rushing with gaping jaws, to their rescue!!!

cherokee!; ) driver of the smoke-signal-mobile, crusher-of-copper-bulls.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:51
Byron @ What A Difference A Few Days Make:>(@ What A Difference A Few Days Make:):
On Kitco's Precious Metals board: Spread between Gold and Platinum almost $90.00 now. Jeez: seems like it was only a short time ago that gold was higher then platinum : )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:42
George S. Cole gold bull>(gold bull):
August gold now up $1.30 as bullion follows the stocks north. Gold shorts must be a getting a little nervous today.

Shortbull: I have no doubt you are an excellent trader but your philosophy of always going for small short-term gains practically GUARANTEES you will miss the big move when it comes. I too am far from sure this is the beginning of the long awaited bull, but am willing to hang in there until it comes. But we must all follow the investment strategy we are most comfortable with.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:39
cyclist time>(time):
Byron:same time on the NYMEX

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:18
Byron @ Shooting Star:>(@ Shooting Star:):
Cyclist: What time does platinum futures close. Gold closes in about 10 minutes.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:16
Duncan To: RMW>(To: RMW):
RMW - North American Paladium : NASDAQ ( PDLCF ) ; Toronto S.E. ( PDL, I think ) .

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:11
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
Tort: Just launched another missile yer way...XAU up 3.23!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:07
cyclist platinum >(platinum ):

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:06
Byron @ Turkey Talk:>(@ Turkey Talk:):
Tort: Turkeys don't fly

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:04
TED @tort>(@tort):
Tort: Roger...will do!...I labored over THAT e-mail...sigh...

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:02
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
XAU up 3.41...WOW!...Dow up 77...DOUBLE WOW!...Hi Tort!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:01
Tortfeasor For Ted>(For Ted):
Ted, no missle yet. Something weird is happening to my computer I fear. Why don't you send a short message to test my email. Thanks.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 14:00
ATT RMW: The study PLATINUM: THE RICH MAN'S GOLD will answer in part your posting. However, there precious few ( pardon pun ) outside Africa- SEE:

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 13:56
Tortfeasor markets>(markets):
Byron, as Howard Ruff used to say, when the wind blows hard enough even turkeys fly.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 13:54
Byron @ SEA:>(@ SEA:):
Dow up +80. A rising tide raises all ships!!!!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 13:54
Byron @ SEA:>(@ SEA:):
Dow up +80. A rising tide carries all ships.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 13:49
Byron @ Moving Up and Out:>(@ Moving Up and Out:):
Xau at up 3.32 or up 3.38%. Stay out of the way.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 13:49
Short Bull (Midday Comments) @ APH you the man! -- XAU fakeout rally today>(@ APH you the man! -- XAU fakeout rally today):
I agree with APH that today in the XAU should only be a one-day pop
and next week I plan to buy back at lower prices. The metals should
be higher tomorrow and they will probably make a temporary high tomorrow
for a small 3 day correction due to profit-taking...I actually said
profit-taking in regards to going long metals. The lack of rally in
gold also does not bode well for the XAU short-term.

What I think will drag down the XAU is the stock market. Since we
are rallying into Monday's Bradley point ( give or take 2 days ) . That
means today or Friday we could top out for a very much needed
correction. If I am wrong I will buy back with futures. In any case
I am selling out of both my 1/2 XAU position today ( Rydex Precious Metals
fund ) and out of my 1/2 position in NASDAQ 100 ( Rydex OTC ) and going
to cash.

If we get any kind of spike down tomorrow, early or late, I would rather
be playing in mutual funds rather than being long mutual funds and stuck
to a closing price. Just a bit of caution....

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 13:35
RMW @the.mark>(@the.mark):
Can anybody here name a few key platinum and palladium exploration and production companies that are publicly traded in Canada and the U.S? I would like to watch their prices and think about buying the stocks.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 13:24
Byron @ ooops.>(@ ooops.):
No bad = Not bad.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 13:21
Byron @ Where Does the Line Form?>(@ Where Does the Line Form?):
200% overnight lease rates!!! No bad, no bad. Better than the credit card companies and the rates at the Hoboken docks in the 1950-60's. What a wonderful business to be in.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 13:12
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
Tort: Just got in from de woods and runnin zee chainsaw...Missile arrive yet?...George S. Cole ( 10:36 ) Right on GSC! Now yer gettin into the spirit!..XAU up 2.42 and from lookin at the earlier posts I guess I missed the best part...Typical!..Novice: Yer bomb arrived and is bein defused...

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 13:05
news @for u>(@for u):

LONDON, June 5 ( Reuter ) - Soaring platinum and palladium

prices on a lack of available supplies dominated precious metals

trading on Thursday morning, traders said.

Palladium fixed at $235.00 per ounce, its highest fixing

since the twice-daily fix began in 1989 and its highest spot

price since early 1980.

Platinum, its sister metal, was fixed at $440, the highest

fixing since September 15, 1995.

``Things are very tight in the spot market. A big U.S. hedge

fund is holding 1.5 million ounces ( of palladium ) and who knows

when this will come on the market,'' a dealer said.

``Every participant who is short in palladium is being forced

to borrow,'' he added.

That need was sending borrowing rates -- especially for

between a day and a month -- to unprecedented levels.

``If you borrow overnight you have to pay more than 200

percent. And one-month lease rates are at 165 percent,'' he said.

Platinum one-month rates were 60 percent versus a regular

two-three percent.

``If the funds don't deliver, what will people who are short

do? Someone is squeezing palladium market and this raises legal

issues,'' the dealer said.

However a senior market source debunked any idea of

culpability. ``It maybe an ugly world but it is a free world and

the funds cannot be forced to put their metal back into the

market to relieve those who don't have any,'' the source said.

Compared with gold, platinum and palladium are very small

markets and are not blessed with overground stocks running into

tens of thousands of tonnes held by central banks.

``The funds have the ammunition to manipulate it and that is

what they are doing in conjunction with Russia's problems. It is

a sort of double whammy for the market,'' the source continued,

adding that if similar problems hit the gold market central

banks would come in.

Russia the largest exporter of palladium and the second

biggest supplier of platinum after South Africa, has been out of

the market this year due to administrative problems in Moscow.

This week it opened 1997 export talks with importers in

Japan, its biggest customer, and exports could begin on June 20,

according to Russian negotiators.

But the squeeze will take another couple of months to

unwind, according to dealers.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 13:01
Steve (Perth - Western Australia) @snooze time>(@snooze time):
US share market is up, gold is up ( a bit ) ....Great. I'm off to bed.
1 am here!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 12:39
Old saw worked in 2 of last 3 years. CNBC-TV financial celebrity Inger Letter Forecast of 6/2/97 is insightful. See Gold Digest & Reload:

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 12:26
auroelf US Treasury web page>(US Treasury web page):
All: The US Treasury web page has been improved. You can get T-note auction results the day of the sale, see a schedule of upcoming auctions, request statements on your Treasury account, calculate values of savings bonds and indexed notes, order forms to participate in auctions, etc.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 12:04
Duncan To: General>(To: General):
General - got a few PDLCF's - was lucky enough to get in at 3 3/8.
With the prices where they are it looks a real bargain IMHO.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 12:03
RT @the pits>(@the pits):
I'll bet GLENN is having fun in the pits today!!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 11:53
SWC continues to disapoint.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 11:29
general to Duncan re PDLCF>(to Duncan re PDLCF):
It could just be that not many know of NA Palladium since it
is so thinly traded. I heard of it through the Silver and Gold
Report newsletter and bought shares on its recommendation. I
bought at 5.32 so I am still in the whole but getting closer to
break-even. Are you a share-holder? They also have made a
lot of investments into needed equipment/procedures which could
be impacting prices negatively short term. We may need that
general bull market before they get the attention they deserve.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 11:01
Duncan Panda / PDLCF>(Panda / PDLCF):
Thanks Panda - I'll be patient!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:58
Duncan For John Disney>(For John Disney):
John - thanks for the hedging information - much appreciated. I am quite heavily into Joel and wonder what this 50% hedging obligation will
have on the stock should the price ( of gold ) rise significantly?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:57
APH =================>(=================):
XAU - it's a fake out rally, you'll be able to buy at better prices in the next few days

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:57
junior with a bad wiseguy accent>(with a bad wiseguy accent):
I no wanna annibody to be baahing thiz rally You justa watch it go up you see This is notta the real thing. you waitta a few more weeks before you buy. we fool you before and this is the same . Nobody believe this is it It cannot be. Gold and silver no turna like this. You waita. You see. Just keep watching and you no buya Capisce.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:54
Reify @VOLUME?>(@VOLUME?):
Believe at the end of the day the deciding factor as to what this rally in gold is all about will be the volume. Would like your input-all.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:42
bw usa treasury bills:>(usa treasury bills:):
Many consider this unsecured debt to be the ideal paper holding. For years I did too. Should things go bad the treasury could simply print up crisp new currency to pay off the tbills as they mature, goes a theory. However this may not be the optimal political solution at that time. One alternative our political masters could take would be to convert the 30 day tbills into 30 year tbonds. Sorry but we must give you no choice in this. But look at the good side. Since we did not print up all that new currency there will be little inflation, thus your new tbonds will pay interest at 2% a year.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:41
cyclist gold@platinum>(gold@platinum):
FWIW,lots of gold-platinum spreads.Sometimes they have to be covered.
Nice retracement for abx and bgo.Time to go long.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:41
vronsky Intra-Day Charts>(Intra-Day Charts):

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:38
cyclist gold@platinum>(gold@platinum):
FWIW,lots of gold-platinum spreads.Sometimes they have to be covered.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:37
Tortfeasor Update>(Update):
Looks real from here

^XAU 10:36AM 101.17 +3.06 +3.12%

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:37
panda @>(@):
Duncan -- One word, ignorance.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:36
George s. Cole conservatives and liberals>(conservatives and liberals):
We all know that old saw that a conservative can be defined as a liberal who has been mugged.

But what is a liberal or populist? Answer -- a conservative who has been laid off.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:36
Scott ........!>(........!):
XAU UP +3.05 yyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeee aaaaaahhhhhh

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:32
Duncan N.A. Paladium (PDLCF)>(N.A. Paladium (PDLCF)):
Could someone explain how paladiums impressive ascent has had so little
impact on N.A. Paladium ( PDLCF ) ?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:32
panda @>(@):
As we wait with bated breath.....

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:31
George S. Cole XAU up 2%>(XAU up 2%):
XAU and HUI up strongly, August gold down just 30 cents. That is the kind of action I like -- the stocks leading bullion north.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:30
Tortfeasor Belated Bonus Joke>(Belated Bonus Joke):
As an afterthough I post the following because I am so encouraged with the gold market.

A Sunday school teacher asked her class, Does anyone know
Jesus' Mother's name?

Susie raised her hand and said, It was Mary. The teacher
said, Very good Susie. Do you know Jesus' Father's name?

Little Johnny said, Yes, it was Virgil. the teacher asked how he
came up with her answer. He said, You know, Verg 'n Mary.....

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:29
Reify @ SO?>(@ SO?):
OK Friends, is this rally to be trusted, what say you?
According to our newcomer RJ- the answer is NO.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:27
Tortfeasor What have we here>(What have we here):
What have we here

^XAU 10:25AM 100.19 +2.08 +2.12%

Not bad for a suckegg gold market

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:19
Este Poor Kohl!>(Poor Kohl!):

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 10:00
vrosnky Seven GoldenThreads of the Global Quilt by Oracle of Alberta>(Seven GoldenThreads of the Global Quilt by Oracle of Alberta):
Virtual Eagle’s eye view of global gold paradigm. Is it a plot to create a single world currency? Erudite & exhaustive analysis by Oracle of Alberta:

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 09:22
That N/A up above for silver is +.09 on EBN

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 09:02
Tortfeasor Re: Missile>(Re: Missile):
Ted, like the javelin catcher of yore I eagerly await receipt of your silver pointed thrust. I installed the updated Claris Emailer yesterday and nothing seems to be working properly anymore. I'll keep looking for incoming.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 08:59
Scott ....!>(....!):
Gold 339.00 ........hang onto your hats guys.. this could be the big one!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 08:56
Reify @announcement>(@announcement):
CNBC announced that market maven Inger, guest on the program today.
I believe it's one of Vronsky's regulars, on the Gold-Eagle, if I'm not mistaken. He supposedly is near term bearish on the markets. So what else is new?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 08:56
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
EBN Gold down 1.10 @ 340.35...Glad I believe in diversification! S+P up 2.20...

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 08:53
Scott .....!>(.....!):
Even the deepest oceans have a bottom you know!

What goes down will go up, and what goes up goes down.... Look at the gold decline as a count down for a launch into orbit as soon as the EMU is rectified. In the mean time...... BUY BUY BUY!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 08:38
JIN: You have an incomming mean missive!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 08:32
panda @>(@):
Don't worry, be happy! France, Germany, EMU, Platinum/Palladium.....

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 08:27
George S. Cole August gold>(August gold):
August gold now off 60 cents. Looks like spot will be going under $340 today.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 08:22
Speed waiting on my broker to wake up>(waiting on my broker to wake up):
Panda: Bias is fine. I'd rather hear pros and cons from vested interests than read a bunch of boring objective analysis by people who have only done superficial research. I read the 10Q and it looks good.
Gotta go, back tomorrow or late tonight.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 08:15
Organ Kitco Prices>(Kitco Prices):
Are Kitco prices any good? Why do I have to well over $5 for an ounce of silver, even if I buy 100 oz. at a time, if Kitco will buy it back from me at less than spot! This seems like a really bad deal. Silver has to increase more than 10% or I LOSE MONEY! In your experience, do other metal dealers have similar prices?

Thanks, Organ

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 08:11
panda @disclaimer>(@disclaimer):
Speed -- I have a position in SWC, so I'm biased. :- )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 08:08
RE: Wall Street Journal palladium lease rates at 150%: As usual, if the WSJ prints it, it's old news. 150% was last week. 260% last night, who know's today? But what's in a lease rate when noone will lend? The mother of all short squeezes could only be in it's infancy. It will be brutal in New York today. Now we're having fun.................

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 07:59
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
Tort: Re-mornin joke: Hahahahaha...Gold is in the's 40 degrees and drizzlin...and I needed that!...

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 07:56
bw Who owns the Gold?>(Who owns the Gold?):
In theory the people of the usa own the gold held by the us treasury. However if you own something, once in a while you like to see it, to feel it, certainly in the case of money, to count it. There has not been an audit of fort Knox in ( seventy? ) years. About every five or ten years some neophyte congressman introduces a bill to audit our gold. This congressman soon learns about the power of the people to count their money. The people of the usa are not allowed to count their money. Not allowed by whom? And why not?

I believe about six months before an audit of fort Knox takes place ( if it ever does ) we will see several stories in our free press. Sometime in the 1980's a gold eating rat will have been bred. In the early 1990's a rogue project will have ... well you can guess the rest.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 07:56
Speed @home>(@home):
Panda: Thanks. What a great month to begin full production. PGMS becomes SWC today and their products are moving sharply up. I am going to get my feet wet. Increasing volatility in all markets should make for an entertaining summer. Going out early to classes again today. The best investment is an education. Back tonight.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 07:51
panda @>(@):
For anyone who doesn't know, Stillwaters' new ticker is ( SWC ) .

Bob A. -- Most investors don't even know what the PGMs are, let alone what's happening there! If most investors new, I would be getting ready to sell out at multiple baggers. The mania will eventually come to this sector also. :- ) )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 07:46
TED @tort>(@tort):
Tort: Got yer letter and just responded!...NM sounds like my kind of place!...Say hello to Mr.Smith and Mr.Wesson!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 07:45
panda @>(@):
Speed -- Stillwater is growth story. If the PGMs story gets people thinking in terms of alternate suppliers, I would think that Stillwater would benifite long term. They are also just starting full production this month ( ? ) . On the other hand ( ! ) , if this move in the white metals is a flash in the pan, then this becomes a trade, not an investment. The difference being in the time horizon. I don't have an answer, but I am leaning strongly towards the longer term horizon with lots of short term volitility. ( So what else is new? )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 07:40
Tortfeasor Note for Ted>(Note for Ted):
Ted, did you get the mail yesterday? Markets look pretty discouraging this morning, but as they always say It is always darkest before you die.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 07:38
Bob A to speed>(to speed):
Stillwater has been disappointing with the run up in Plat. and Palladium. It means to me most people think the move in the metals is a short term event.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 07:25
Tortfeasor Joke of the morning>(Joke of the morning):
Viewing this gold market with a jaundiced eye brings to mind the following story:

Becky was on her deathbed, with her husband Tom at her side. He held her cold hand and tears silently streamed down his face. Her pale lips moved.

Tom, she said.

Hush, he quickly interrupted, don't talk.

But she insisted. Tom, she said in her tired voice. I have to talk. I must confess.

There is nothing to confess, said the weeping Tom. It's all right.
Everything's all right.

No, no. I must die in peace. I must confess, Tom, that I have been unfaithful to you.

Tom stroked her hand. Now Becky, don't be concerned. I know all about it, he sobbed. Why else would I poison you?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 07:22
Speed needs advice>(needs advice):
Will the recent developments in Platinum and Palladium be meaningful for mining companies like Stillwater? Or is this a short term speculative froth for futures and bullion traders only?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 07:04
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
From Wall Street journal: Lease rates to borrow Palladium have risen as high as 150% compared with the usual levels of less than 5% in speculation that Russian shipments might be delayed into July...

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 06:55
Mike Sheller the future works>(the future works):
GEORGE S. COLE: EMU Dying is a very cogent article at this juncture. It will be the very people and mindset whose thinking is most antithetical to a gold standard who will precipitate the conditions for a resurgence of gold. The general political consensus of humanity is still not so much founded upon systematic integrity and moral principle as it is sentiment and personal desires. This is, of course, a hallmark of the general Human Condition ( I suppose we are all in some way guilty ) . The people and their representatives are sensitive to the discipline and struggle they must endure to redress the mess that has been made of public finances. The people will opt every time for the solution that insures the least diminution of their benefits and handouts. After all, aren't these things they've paid for and due them by law and tradition? Their representatives will do everything possible to retain power, thus they must satisfy the people's desires first and foremost. They will stave off the future catastrophe as far into the next administration as possible. Let some other politico handle it - preferably an opposing party. The turn to the left that is the inevitable result of this philosophical bankruptcy will only speed the day of reckoning for all. Get Real. Get Gold.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 06:44
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
Mike Sheller: Don't think it's manipulation just good old Russian incompetance and yes at some point this has to affect even gold...Time to go read the Journal...

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 06:38
Mike Sheller wondering>(wondering):
Good Morning All. Does anyone have any thoughts about supply problems in precious metals from Russian production filtrering down from the Platinum/Palladium group to gold? Is this pure manipulation of a relatively thin market or can we expect the deterioration of Russian industrial activity to affect mining in general and gold in particular as well? Russia is still a significant gold producer ( oil too ) & one would expect, despite CB hoards & attempts to control the price, that industrial demand has its own parameters and would eventually be disturbed by a decline in Russian production ( if that's the case ) . My work with the precious is obviously technical, so I depend on the sagacious scuttlebutt at Kitco for the fundamental view. Also - re ark's clearly rhetorical question about the CBs ( 00:04 ) Who owns the Gold anyway? The answer, for the record, is that it is the PEOPLE's gold. I think on that, be we left or right in our political direction, we are all agreed.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 06:16
George S. Cole EMU dying?>(EMU dying?):
From today's NEW YORK TIMES

Death of EMU would be very positive for gold by greatly reducing the prospect of further CB sales, and encouraging reflationary monetary policy on the continent.

June 5, 1997

Continental Rift


he first two lessons from the Socialist victory in France's elections on Sunday are
obvious, and mostly of interest to the French. One is that President Jacques Chirac and
the Gaullist movement are in trouble, revealing a dangerous sinkhole on the right wing
of French politics. The second is that any serious attempt to reduce France's generous social
and welfare provisions will be overwhelmingly rebuffed by the French public.

A third lesson, however, will have broad consequences for Europe and the world. It is that the
goal of uniting Europe around the euro, the common currency envisaged under the Maastricht
Treaty, has been revealed as politically unattainable.

Paradoxically, it was the Socialist President François Mitterrand who was the driving force
behind the Maastricht agreement in December 1991. Like many of the previous stages in the
European Community's forging of an ever closer union over the last 40 years, the treaty was
economic in form but political in purpose.

In the aftermath of German unification, the French were anxious to bind their powerful
neighbor firmly within existing European institutions. Chancellor Helmut Kohl of Germany
assented readily, but only on the condition that the move to a single European currency be
achieved at no cost to Germany's cherished monetary stability. If the German currency was to
be folded into the euro, then the euro would have to be as firm as the mark.

But the criteria under which member states are allowed to join the monetary union -- notably
the requirement that their annual budget deficit not exceed 3 percent of gross domestic product
-- were arbitrarily set nearly six years ago and represent an unrealistic and excessive concern
with monetary stability. Such terms might have made sense in an era of sustained high
economic growth. But in today's straitened circumstances they oblige governments to pass
unpopular deflationary measures and spending cuts -- and thus destabilize national politics.

Furthermore, the race to the euro has encouraged political dishonesty and bad faith among the
European member states. To qualify for membership in their own club, the French and more
recently the Germans have attempted budgetary sleight of hand -- the French by mortgaging
state pension plans and the Germans by unsuccessfully trying to revalue their central bank's
gold reserves.

This has soured relations with smaller nations like Spain and Italy, which the Germans have
sanctimoniously lectured on the virtues of financial stringency. As a result, the move to a closer
monetary union is actually driving Europeans further apart.

Thus the Italian Government of Romano Prodi has taken great pains and considerable political
risks to bring its budget in line with the Maastricht criteria. Yet German politicians and bankers
continue to cast doubt on Italy's long-term economic reliability, Germany's own budget deficit
and soaring unemployment notwithstanding.

This has led the Italians, along with Greeks and Spaniards, to suspect that the rigidity of the
terms for the euro have more to do with German domestic politics than any grand design for a
united continent. To many, the criteria seem little more than a device to keep Mediterranean
countries out of the monetary union as long as possible.

From the perspective of candidates for future membership in the European Union, the prospect
is equally depressing. Even if one or two former Communist states could technically qualify
for membership under the Maastricht rules today ( which is quite possible ) , they could not
continue to pursue the difficult economic and social transformations they have begun without
eventually increasing government spending of the sort precluded by the criteria.

The likely outcome is less a unified continent than a concentric series of European clubs, a
multiclass Europe that will nourish disagreements and resentments in years to come.

Finally, by defining a strong euro as the main objective of union, and pegging painful social
reforms and welfare cutbacks to that goal, Europe's leaders have played into the hands of
critics from the political fringes. All across Europe Brussels is now attacked by demagogues
as the symbol of rules and requirements that create local unemployment, cuts in government
service and economic stagnation.

Critics assert: We are the ones who stand for those who have no voice in Brussels, for voters
fearful of change ( and foreigners ) , for those who look closer to home for their security and
identity. We shall reassert the policy-making autonomy of the nation-state.

In France the extreme-right National Front and the Communists, together with various
dissident politicians who share their dislike for Europe, gained nearly 30 percent of the vote
on Sunday. In Austria the Freedom Party, a Europhobic group, has attracted voters from
social-democratic strongholds including Vienna, where it won a quarter of the votes in
municipal elections last year. If the painful budgetary reforms and tax increases adopted by
Italy's center-left coalition prove in vain and the country is kept out of the monetary union, an
angry reaction can be expected there, too.   A t the very least we shall hear demands across the
continent for a social Europe rather than a monetary one -- the same vague promise that was
held out to French voters by the new Prime Minister, Lionel Jospin, and is finding an eager
audience among Germany's floundering Social Democrats.

Likewise, it is only in some such social union that we can expect Tony Blair's Britain to play a
full part.

The lesson is clear. A European Union founded on a strong and inflexible currency -- the
extrapolation to the rest of the continent of the postwar German miracle -- is no longer
realistic or prudent.

An ever-closer union, of the kind that seemed so admirable and necessary in 1957 when the
Treaty of Rome was drawn up, may no longer be the best way to insure peace and stability in

Melding the economies of countries as different as Austria and Britain, France and Portugal,
Sweden and Greece ( not to mention Poland or Hungary ) is both impossible and unwise:
Contrasting social and economic practices are born of longstanding political and cultural
differences that cannot be obliterated with the wave of a magic monetary wand.

There are alternative, less monolithic models of cooperation. The Swiss confederation, in
which real political authority and the power to make major economic decisions are shared
among autonomous regions, might be a more reassuring model.

If Europe is ever to move toward genuine cooperation in foreign policy and military
coordination, both of which require the active cooperation of sovereign states, then the union
will need to scale back both its rhetoric and its current monetary obsessions.

But what, some will ask, if global market forces make economic harmonization inevitable?
That, however, is the last lesson of the recent French election: Global market forces don't

Tony Judt directs the Remarque Institute at New York University.

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Copyright 1997 The New York Times Company

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 06:11
John Disney>(
To All Those who asked ne about Durban Deep/Blyvoor.
Its not as simple as I said. BECAUSE at the time
of conversion, IF you hold Durban Deep shares, you will
receive one half of a new option striking price 60,
expiry sometime in 2002. I figure the option is worth
about 6 rand. If you come in via blyvoor you dont get
this. Also I dont know how it works with ADR. So in
the joberg market if DD is 21 and you want to break
even with blyvoor, BEV blyvoor is ( 21-.5*6 ) /5= 3.6.
BEV ADR in $ = 3.6*3/4.47= 2.4 $. So market is pretty
efficient and there is no advantage either way IF the
ADR yield an option. I doubt if they do. My own experience
if that options on ADR are auctioned all in one day for
practically no value. If Im right on this, then the best
way to go in is via Blyvoor.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 05:50
George S. Cole outlook>(outlook):
Reify: I do suspect that spot gold will break $340 before moving up, but I doubt it will go much below that or stay there very long. As Steve Kaplan has observed huge physical buying comes out of Asia every time the price dips below $340.

I also agree that the overall market market may now be entering a corrective phase, but the top isn't in yet; certainly not for the small caps. The Russell 2000 small cap index continues to outperform the big cap indexes by wide margins, but this trend is only a few weeks old and has a considerable way to go. My best guess is that the market will not peak until late summer.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 05:39
George S. Cole gold flat>(gold flat):
August gold now flat after being up modestly overnight. Looks like we may not get that bounce for another day or two.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 05:33
George S. Cole LGN>(LGN):
Charles: LNG now is sending out a daily investment E-mail. Here is a complete one which includes their phone number:

GN Daily Review & Trade Alert ( Thurs, May 22nd, 1997 )
Thu, 22 May 1997 18:31:02 -0400


Wednesday - May 22nd - 1997


As an LGN Market Letter reader you know that we have been talking about
America Online's stronger financial situation, better marketing strategies,
and overall market share increase. Today, AOL shares surged 2 1/8 in very
active trading, boosted by Cowen & Co. report's positive comments on the
on-line service provider.


( * ) The Dow lost 32.56, at 7258.13.
( * ) Big Board gainers topped losers 13 to 12 on volume of 426.9 million shares.
( * ) In broad measure action: the NYSE index fell by 1.55, the S&P 500 lost
3.69, and the Nasdaq composite slipped 1.16; whereas the Russell 2000
small-stock index gained 1.40 and the Amex composite finished up 1.65.
( * ) The long bond close down 10/32, to yield 6.98%; intermediate-term notes
lost 1/32 to 6/32; and the 3-month bill yield rose 5 basis points to 5.03%.
( * ) Lastly, the dollar was quoted at 116.03 yen and 1.6943 marks, up 1 2/3
yen and up 1/8 pfennig respectively.

Today's action came as a confirmation: the markets are giving back gains
made on the euphoria of the recent Fed's decision not to raise interest
rates. In fact, despite a few strong price swings, we are not really that
far from last month's levels.

Second on the NYSE's list of most actively traded stocks, an IPO from
Hartford Life was a success with investors, fetching a 14% premium over its
original $28.25 offer price.

On merger news, reports that the European Commission officially challenged
Boeing's planned acquisition of McDonnell Douglas caused shares of the
aerospace giant to tumble by more that 2 points. Meanwhile, RCSB Financial
surged 6 * ( 18% ) as it agreed to be acquired by Charter One Financial; RCSB
is the holding company for Rochester Community Savings Bank.


( * ) Spot gold fixed at $342.75 per ounce, against a previous close of
$342.40; while the Comex June contract was down $0.40 at $343.60.
( * ) Platinum was down $5.75, at $387.75, while silver fixed at $4.67, down 2

Precious metals prices eased from morning levels as New York appeared to
adjust to lower European levels. With the dollar off its closing low
against the yen, traders lost incentive to trade gold, as the yen's strength
had been a stronger gold supporter. Overall, gold business was
unexceptional at best, as it reflected a slightly firmer dollar following
a rise in jobless figures to 322,000 from the revised 319,000 the previous week.

As expected, most of the weakness came once again from the platinum group
metals and especially palladium, which was sold by Swiss dealers early in
Europe and fell steeply on the Nymex opening.

However, we do not think that palladium's rally is over. According to our
sources, the Tiger Management fund has the market were it wants it''. Some
dealers forecast the funds hanging on to palladium positions until the price
is ``up to $300''. We know that open interest is over 5,000 lots on the
contract on May 20.

Silver remained quiet today. For the days to come, we expect silver price
levels to drift lower with the upcoming long holiday weekend in London.

Your Fellow Investor,

Patrick J. Jacquemin

©1997 LGN Capital Management. All Rights Reserved.
LGN Capital Management. 3109 Grand Avenue. Suite 200. Miami. Florida 33133.
For subscription details, please email or call ( 305 )

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 03:15
Congradulate me!!! I am holding 2000 oz paladium at $204. Looks preety quiet arround me. I'm in profits now, but I decided to wait until tomorrow.$240, #250 spot!!!!!!!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 03:15
Congradulate me!!! I am holding 2000 oz paladium at $204. Looks preety quiet arround me. I'm in profits now, but I decided to wait until tomorrow.$240, #250 spot!!!!!!!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 03:08
There is no more relationship between gold and the PGMs. One is trading with a dark cloud overhead with worries of convictions of high crimes and misdemeners.
Silver is overdue for anoter .60 run. The PGM's are operation on ther own fundimentals.Fortget about gold and silver this time arround. The current short squeeze in the PGM's are unpresidented, so we will continue to see lower gold and higher silver. You've got to believe!!!!! Let me ask you, did you beleive in peanut buter?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 02:51
It's simple. Gold will decline, silver will rise. Don't be shocked, it happanes all the time. With the twin spetres of German & Swiss central bank wanting to revalue their gold reserves. This is all prepretory to some acctual gold sales from these major counmtries this year. Forget about price ratios, forget about inflation or any other thing on the rest of the earth. If you don't believe that central eurpoe will forever cap gold this year, look to place some shorts. The Swiss and the Germans both are attempting to raise lease rates, their attempted revalue of their gold reserves have cast a profane and ugly pall over the gold market. Yes! Silver will rise - gold will fall............ The best of both worlds...... show me the $.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 02:13
yellowdog @RJ>(@RJ):
I'm sorry, RJ, but I just dont see the logic: you are forecasting a 15% rise in Silver and an additional 10% rise in Platinum in June, but a decline in gold . How can the white metals rise that much and the yellow one decline at the same time?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 02:09

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 02:00
Fidelity Select American Gold Chart, hourly prices in percent,
seven hours ( prices ) per day, for ten days.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 01:48
Silver will take a run at $5.00 in the next couple weeks, if it breaks through, $5.40 soon. Gold is done for this year. $350 is screaming short and $325 may not be the low, but I doubt it will break $300. I have traded enogh gold in my time to think it deserves a descent christian burial, but that will just create a martyr. Instead, I will be repectful and kind and lay piles of straw at the bottom for a hopefully soft landing. A dear friend, so injured now, can still draw from afar, resources to breath life where litte resides, but enough to always not ignore. I know There are numerous markers out there that we may collect for the sicly yellow lass as we set he genly on the straw. We will hear her stories ( most of which we've heard too may times ) and pat her nuggets. With a blown kiss and encouragement to rest easy tonight, we will depart for business.
We will sell her for her beauty,
we will sell her for her class,
we will sell her because she is
Our little golden lass.
One day we may buy
But for the life of us all
Who among us knows why?
I trade millions every week ( my clients $, not my own ) in the three beautiful metals with some rolls of the dice in palladium.I speak with traders on the floor, and traders up above. When I have concerns over near term disruptions in supply, We are mor likley to be found having luch and a game of darts in some mock pub with the South African Ammbasador. It's nice to know what he thinks, only as it is possible to rely that our understanding of their thougts carry less self service than any other who proposes to love and cherish through good to bad.I'm a new guy here but I trade lots-o-metals every day. I have read these postings off and on for months with nary a single desire to post but I'm having too much fun and see too much ahead to remain silent.I count amonng my brethren those who were compelled to buy platinum and short gold on that magical day last Decenmber when platinum dipped below gold. My true brothers were not fooled by platinum tracking gold dollor for dollor and held, and held, and hold untill today when they will hold some more. $75 spread is not nearly enough to reward the courage it took to stay. Gold/platinum spread will rise to to $100 for the first time in almost a decade. It's still a play, butwith some of the bottom gone, a slighly more meager one, albeit with acceptable returns. What the hell, the risk is almost nonexsistent. I'm a new guy in this group, I know. I will comport myself with dignity and hope to have extended to me the hospitallity you have. There comes a time in which our indroduction to the world cements certain expectations. We will talk of those next time.


This is what I do for a living. Only metals, I love It. I have persoally move the markect my self recently. Let me know if you would like a no
bgs take on the market

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 01:48
Silver will take a run at $5.00 in the next couple weeks, if it breaks through, $5.40 soon. Gold is done for this year. $350 is screaming short and $325 may not be the low, but I doubt it will break $300. I have traded enogh gold in my time to think it deserves a descent christian burial, but that will just create a martyr. Instead, I will be repectful and kind and lay piles of straw at the bottom for a hopefully soft landing. A dear friend, so injured now, can still draw from afar, resources to breath life where litte resides, but enough to always not ignore. I know There are numerous markers out there that we may collect for the sicly yellow lass as we set he genly on the straw. We will hear her stories ( most of which we've heard too may times ) and pat her nuggets. With a blown kiss and encouragement to rest easy tonight, we will depart for business.
We will sell her for her beauty,
we will sell her for her class,
we will sell her because she is
Our little golden lass.
One day we may buy
But for the life of us all
Who among us knows why?
I trade millions every week ( my clients $, not my own ) in the three beautiful metals with some rolls of the dice in palladium.I speak with traders on the floor, and traders up above. When I have concerns over near term disruptions in supply, We are mor likley to be found having luch and a game of darts in some mock pub with the South African Ammbasador. It's nice to know what he thinks, only as it is possible to rely that our understanding of their thougts carry less self service than any other who proposes to love and cherish through good to bad.I'm a new guy here but I trade lots-o-metals every day. I have read these postings off and on for months with nary a single desire to post but I'm having too much fun and see too much ahead to remain silent.I count amonng my brethren those who were compelled to buy platinum and short gold on that magical day last Decenmber when platinum dipped below gold. My true brothers were not fooled by platinum tracking gold dollor for dollor and held, and held, and hold untill today when they will hold some more. $75 spread is not nearly enough to reward the courage it took to stay. Gold/platinum spread will rise to to $100 for

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 01:36
George S. Cole:
Thanks for the LGN post. A month ago or so, LGN issued an e-mail to me stating that would be the last newletter update. I tried sending them several e-mails asking if I would receive a refund as I had paid them $500 for a Lifetime subscription. They initially told me that I could get a full refund if if wasn't satisfied with the surface. Needless to say, they would not respond to any of my e-mail messages. Do you know if they are back in business? Are they once again issuing a newsletter to subscribers? Would you happen to have there telephone number? I would much appreciate any information you may have.


Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 01:22
Reify @Check it out>(@Check it out):
It seems my thought come in short pants-

Recently Short Bull suggested to check out a stock called Caledonia Mng.
I did and lo&behold it looked interestin, so I added it to my list of companies which I chart and watch, and in yesterdays lower price action, would you believe this one bucked the trend. Check it out. It looks good once a larger base has been made, but then one can never tell, it may not wait to base.

The credit to Short Bull- the cash to me.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 01:04
Reify @Watching>(@Watching):
My doctor advised me to watch my salt intake, since my blood pressure was too high. However it's very difficult, since I take so many grains of salt reading Kitkoites posts.

Since you've been waiting for my latest readings, with baited breath, here are a few thoughts for y'all;-

When last reporting, I thought the CRB would get to 260 range it didn't, and now that a correction is proceeding, I believe it's almost over, and it sure was a quicky. We're now at 247, and the 244 range should be it.

The long term gold charts looks like we should be starting our move up from these levels shortly, maybe a few more days to a week. I don't believe we'll be flying just yet, but maybe by July- August. The move may in some cases take up to September- November, before correcting.
Some of you have had the opinion, which I respect, that we're headed for the $330 range before moving up. Sorry, but just can't see this, unless something weird should happen, and that has been known to happen on occasion.

Some of the near term charts, like HM,PDG, BGO,GLG-etc. I believe should start up today or in the next day or two.

The XOI, and Crude, should begin to correct from these levels, but maybe not very far. Hard to tell.

The markets should also correct from these levels, and again after that I can't tell. I say this because I see accumulation and bottom formation in quite a few stocks that I follow, so maybe the small caps still have a move up to make before the big bad BEAR starts to roar for real.

Any comments?

Short Bull- didn't see you latest, what happened?

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 01:03
John Disney>(
To all
Having just reread my earlier post on the dbn-deep merger, and at
the risk of starting a big argument, I believe that Barrick is one of
the most over priced stocks in the world based on cost of capacity amd
cost per ounce of reserves. On the subject of their vaunted management,
these guys almost bought into Bre-X ( if anyone remembers ) .
I believe that if Barrick had any imagination, brains, or B***S, they
would be in South Africa offerring three times market value for durban
deep right now. Are the wittle boobies afwaid of getting mugged in Joberg

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 00:54
tarnished @Dinghy>(@Dinghy):
night all...You too Ted!

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 00:54
John Disney>(
For Duncan - Joel hedges 50%. Im not sure but I believe DD does not
hedge at all.
For ARS in Mexico. That a very tough question. DD loses money at the
present gold price but will almost double production in September which
should give some economy of scale.
Blyvoor is close to breakeven at present gold price but also have
projects in place to lower cost.
Buffles still profitable at present gold price.
Merger itself should provide additional scale economy which should
lower costs still further

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 00:47
RJ: Your post re Palladium makes sense. If a single seller can control the market, they will manipulate for maximum value.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 00:30

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 00:26
Look for the Russians to announce resumption of palladium shipments next week with barely enough to undersatisfy current demand. Every major price move in the last two months has been preceeded by announcements from Russia. Forget about production or stockpiles, they have been sellers at the highs - announce everything is OK, supplies will meet demands, and buyers at the lows - silence or cautious optimism. Who needs to produce palladium when you can pay for your low priced deliveries with massive profits from your shorts? This has been one of the most beautifully manipulated markets I have seen in the last decade. $250 palladium is a lock, probably by Friday. There will be Japanese traders jumping out of windows tonight when they find it next to impossible to cover shorts. Profit taking ( finally ) will not take it below $200. look for $275 before the month is out. For those of you worried about stockpiles, they are nearly nonexsistant - 2 years max. Norilsk is opperating at 25% tops. Unpaid miners dig with broken machinery. Western money is too spread out to even begin to rebuild infastructure. Only those with hot blood and money to burn will play palladium. For those of you looking for a real play, look for platinum to repeat the 1986 - 1990 levels. The $420's will be a distant memory of bargin basement levels by August. Can platinum top $500 and stay there for awhile? Not the first time, nor the second, but it can and will. South Africa can smell the money and they will come out to play soon. $450 in June. Save this message and remember you were advised in advance.

Date: Thu Jun 05 1997 00:04
ark saltedcore>(saltedcore):
So the CBs store and guard their gold and charge no one for
the service? Sounds strange they don't charge some kind of
rent, especially after going to all the trouble of building
huge vaults, etc. If they do charge a fee they don't cover
their costs. Who owns the gold anyway? Surely not the
politicians, they have trouble keeping their pants zipped up
and not sending our young men into European battles.
The gold market is not cornered by the C. Banks.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:50
Post office @Chicago>(@Chicago):

Sorry, the mailman did not deliver today either.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:31
panda: I hear you. There are a few mining companies I like that are on the NASDAQ ... but I probably never will touch them ... it's annoying .. especially with companies with usually low volume. My focus is on the AMEX mining companies. Even though my favorite gold stock pick is on the NASDAQ.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:29

1. Thats what I thought when I bought a potful of Dec 97 400s some time ago. Won't even mention the June's - so late deceased.

2. If Insider had posted earlier this morning I might have changed my outlook. ... Nah!

3. With all the talk of a sharp spike down, it might be wise to put in a 'good till cancelled' order for Dec 98 400s at say, 300 or less. It costs nothing to put the order in and ..... who knows?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:27
Steve (Perth - Western Australia)>(
George S Cole: Thank you for your prompt & as usual accurate response. It was what I thought. But not being an expect like... In recent reading Andy Smith was quoted as wanting a rise in the Gold Price, so it makes sense he was pushing their CB propaganda line. But it makes you wonder, if gold dropped by 2/3rds, how far could it fall? Where it is We wonder on. We shall see in time. ( For your information, I am a Financial
Adviser/Investment Planner in Western Australia )

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:22
EWP: PGMS more volatile as a result of moving to AMEX My goodness if it gets any more volitile than it has in the past, I'm not sure my heart will bear up. That hummer seldom trades in units less than a quarter and halfs are not unusual. That has always been one of the striking features of watching the intraday action in it. .... BTW, what is the new ticker symbol and when does it happen?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:18
tarnished @Dinghy>(@Dinghy):
Panda: Quite right! NASDAQ is quite sellective as to which houses they deal with, I too have experienced the very same situation, depending on which broker I went through determined whether or not I got a fill.
DAMN Frustrating!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:18
Earl @17:22 - The Prognosticator informs me that you are going to be one happy fellow come Christmas 1998!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:15
panda @>(@):
nailz -- I was thinking of the cute fuzzy BEAR, But the coin works for me too! Really gone now. ;- ) ) rhodium?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:13
panda @zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....>(@zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....):
The suspense is killing me, therefore, it is off to sleep! We shall see in the morning what the market sentiment is. Good night all, rhodium, hmmm. Wonder what the supply and demand picture is for that 'stuff'? A corner anyone? Nahh, better go now...... ;- ) )

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:11
nailz PANDA>(PANDA):
PANDA.....HEH....HEH....Hope you are not a slower typist than me...That would put you in the two words per week catagory....Did you take your handle from the Chinese gold coin They are pretty....

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:10
tarnished @Dinghy>(@Dinghy):
Nailz: Ahhhhhhh! OK that makes great sense now!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:09
panda @Nasdaq.NOT>(@Nasdaq.NOT):
EWP -- Digressing from the precious metals for a moment, I have had 'market' orders hang out 'there' on the Nasdaq for over twenty minutes without being filled. I have used limit orders and had the price trade through the limit with no fill. I have even had limit orders hit price wise, the price stays there at the bid, and the order is not filled! Go figure, The market for the next hundred years, NOT! I could go on, but what's the point? I think the AMEX move is for the better. At least you have a reasonable chance of your order getting filled at the ask or bid price!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:06
WW @ New England - Did you finally get the message I was trying to give you two weeks ago? Your posts at 19:32 and 20:01 were a breath of fresh air - keep up the good work!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:03
nailz SCUSE ME !!!!!>(SCUSE ME !!!!!):
TARNISHED.....Sorry !!!!PGMs is platinum group metals .....

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 23:00
Panda: Sounds better. I hate the NASDAQ for that reason!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:58
TARNISHED.....This is an extrapolation of my belief that the next secular move in gold and silver will have a much broader base that the one that ended on Jan. 21, 1981. More people own the precious metals now than then. Remember that ownership of physical gold in the US had only been allowed for a few years before the last bull market began. Worldwide ownership is up as seen by the increase in manufactured gold going to foreign countries. I think the more people who own gold ( it being spread into many hands compared to few ) will be another bullish factor.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:57
Speed @home>(@home):
Stillwater changing tomorrow from PGMS on the NASDAQ to SWC on the AMEX. Closed today at 22.94.
29-day high 24.75
29-day low 19.50
It is one of the top 10 holdings of Fidelity Select American Gold ( FSAGX )
More later.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:55
panda @slow.typing>(@slow.typing):
nailz -- You beat me to it! Anybody interested in rhodium Seems the Japanese are. I guess palladium is just to tough to get and rhodium is easier?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:52
panda @>(@):
tarnished -- I think Nailz meant the platinum group metals, not stillwater. ( maybe? )

EWP -- I know from personal experience, Nasdaq executions ( ! ) were just that! Spreads as much as 3/4 of a point were common on this stock. AMEX should be much better in this respect.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:49
TARNISHED....Stillwater has had little attention that I have seen. PA and PL on the other hand have had a lot of attention on television including CNBC. I think calling attention to the actual metals will cause others to look at the metals market as a whole and some will wonder if it is not time for that sector to be revisited. Hence possibly bringing a few back to purchase the actual metals. I meant nothing toward the stocks. PA and PL made the news on the local TV stations here in a town of 125k. I expect it got more attention in the financial centers.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:42
tarnished @ Dinghy>(@ Dinghy):
Nailz: How do you figure Stillwater alone, could draw that much attention as to bring notice to the metals as a whole?
Or is this just wishfull thinking?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:42
TO all,

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:32
June T-Bonds are at 110+ while cash T-Bonds are at 95+. Is this kind of disparity usual and normal? Does anyone know of a site where this info might be available? June gold gave two buy signals on the chart today, so we should get a couple of day bounce shortly.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:32
ALL.....My last post reminded me of a thought I have had many times in the last few weeks while reading all the complicated reasons of why gold and silver must go up. Some are very deep and very well worded by some obviously intelligent people. Has anyone considered that just the very fact that gold and silver are openly traded commodities lends them toward price changes and variations ?Look at the commodity markets. Is there not at all times something being forced upwards or downwards ( churned ) so that some people will make money and some will loose Of course there is and at some time it will be the turn for gold and silver. Couple that with all the reasons that have been exposed or birthed by members of this group, the time is near for gold and silver if for no other reason.... The best I remember gold got churned shortly after coffee in the 70s. Is it time for the commodity of our choice to be next

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:29
tarnished @Dinghy checking fer leaks>(@Dinghy checking fer leaks):
TED: Howd'ya like me friend Stevie, last night?
Gold's up .60, will it last?.....NAHHHHH!!!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:26
What does everyone think about PGMS getting listed on AMEX versus NASDAQ? Lower volume? Less promotion? More volatile? Better access for small investor since you're not dealing with market makers?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:21
Hey Sheller: What do you mean ... could this be a sign? You tell us ... you're the astrologer. I guess everyone thinks gold is near a bottom. I hope so.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:19
ALL.....IMHO all this press coverage of PGMS will call attention to the entire metals group and will cause a renewed interest in them. It will not cause an instantly rising market, because as in all commodities this market ( gold and silver ) must be driven down as low as it will go. The more the rubber band stretches, the more it will react in the opposite direction when it finally does react.....We do need that downward spike..And it may be closely at hand...

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:06
panda @>(@):
Forgot to mention about South African tribe in litigation with Implatt, Stillwater changing ticker, and Japanese buying Rhodium. Reuters story quoted rhodium at 300b/330a. Maybe rhodium will be the fastest mover here! Do you get the sense that something may be 'happening'?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:03
This afternoon and evening have produced some of the kind of thought provoking material it should produce. Thank goodness for a return to ideas concerning metals !!!!!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:00
George S. Cole The Whites>(The Whites):
From the LGN Group:


Precious metal prices lost ground as a group today, following an agitated
platinum group metal sector and heavy gold selling.

In the morning, the action ( major borrowing wave ) came from investors trying
to cover palladium positions -- where available stocks are either
non-existent or tightly held. According to our sources, 1-month rates range
between 150% and 180% for Zurich good delivery plate, while platinum lenders
were fetching rates of about 60% for 1 month.

In the morning, Palladium fixed at an all-time high of $210 per ounce ( and
its highest spot price since 1980 ) , and up 85% from the year's low. In the
afternoon, however, it was off $2.00 at $208.00, while platinum made $419.00.

As our readers know, we have been pointing out that there is in fact a
fundamental reason for palladium to be so short; however, platinum should
not be that tight; we believe someone is trying to artificially create a
squeeze. Interestingly enough, we learned that while there was no
shortness in Johnson-Matthey refined sponge grade palladium available in
London, purchase hedging was basically unfeasible on the Nymex or in Zurich.
That should make our dealers and refinery friends smile, because it would
actually mean that they would have to offer a discount to their customers.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 22:00
panda @news>(@news):
Normally I don't like to hand out reading assignments, :- ) ) , but these stories make good reading! Platinum, Palladium, and RHODIUM moving UP. Words to the effect of, Trouble in the shorts. Rhodium being used as a substitute. ...........

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 21:54
Mike Sheller backtothe futures>(backtothe futures):
Now this is very interesting! The evening's discussion is entirely about gold! The precious is occupying EVERYone's mind. No frenetic, go-no-where politics for Kitkoites tonite. Could this be a sign?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 21:46
MoreGold @AU>(@AU):
Glenn, thanks for your updates from the pits. I believed a while ago that Gold will have to bottom at or near 325. and then the rally could begin, and still think this will happen. I am very comfortable with this scenario.
Could make the cheap calls I want to buy even cheaper.
A couple of months ago platinum was about the same price as Gold and now it's $85. higher. Why should Russia ever go back to dumping cheap platinum, when they can control the market with a little well timed disiplin. They have control of supply, but on the other side there is no control for demand. Similar to the current Coffee squeeze.
Gold should turn late June and follow behind platinum.
I agree with G.S.C. that probably still downside on Gold but getting very
risky to short. There is a lot of FALSE Gold out there ( borrowed/leased/sold-forward/futures/options ) , and I don't believe it can be rolled over indefinitely. This will certainly help the Gold rally.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 21:41
George S. Cole: Ref - This is just PR proppoganda, not serious analysis. it is also self-serving since Merril Lynch ( ML ) is believed to be one of the biggest of the gold shorts. The real reason they talk this way is that they know a rise in gold would cost them much monry on their shorts. It would also be very bearish for financial assets -- their primary business.

George, you have NO IDEA how close to the mark you are. ML is far and away the world's largest marketers of GOLD CALL OPTIONS. Their clients are the principal Central World Banks. Merrrill derives an obcene amount of profits selling gold calls to the hapless and naive public, who innocently believe that the markets are not manipulated. The public will always be fleeced by Wall Street. And there are two ways to ensure the SHEARING ( like in sheep ) : 1 ) ML sells CB gold bullion as agent, when the price creeps up, and 2 ) ML's so-called analysts pooh-pooh gold investments in the interim. During all this time the SEC and the NASD look elsewhwere. There is much truth that some are above the law.

In effect Merrill is an interested party protecting its large clients: CENTRAL BANKS. And who gets the short end of the stick Ironically, Merrill's HERD!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 21:39
Duncan For John Disney>(For John Disney):
Hi John - do you know if Durban Deep and / or Joel are hedged?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 21:21
ARS in Mexico>(
For John Disney: Thank you for the Durban Deep information. Do you have any estimate as to what the production cost per oz. will be for the new Durban Deep ?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 20:58
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
George S Cole: You are forgiven...misery loves company...MGraves: Is that the same gull I just blew out of the sky?...Tort: nothin yet! let's get it on...GO JAZZ!...and GOLD!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 20:50
George S. Cole spell checking>(spell checking):
Sorry about the spelling and grammar errors in my last post. By mistake hit the submit button before spell checking. But I think all will understand my meaning

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 20:48
Plaintalker same place>(same place):
Bernie: For info on gold dredges check California mining journal at your local newstand or library also All sierra streams were mined by the 49 ers, again during the great depression and starting in the 1950s through today they have all been dredged and redredged, properly done dredging gets every grain of gold in the stream and is only graduly replentished from the hillsides. As a matter of historical interest there was one crevace in canyon creek ( south of Laporte Ca ) frm which the 49ers in 1851 took over $3 million in gold when gold was $18 per ounce. Good luck.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 20:46
George S. Cole CBs and Gold>(CBs and Gold):
Steve: Ted Arnold asnd Andy Smith have been talking this way for a long time, and their point of view probably is the conventional wisdom in the American financial community. Most of the shorts share their point of view. A few comments:

This argument is self-contradictory. How can the CBs complain about the lack of profit on their gold holdings when they themselves ( some of them anyway ) are doing all they can drive the yellow metal down. This is just PR proppoganda, not serious analysis. it is also self-serving since Merril Lynch is believed to be one of the biggest of the gold shorts. The real reason they talk this way is that they know a rise in gold would cost them much monry on their shorts. It would also be very bearish for financial assets -- their primary business.

CB attitudes towrds gold differ trmendously. The strongest gold opponents are Anglo CBs -- the U.S., Britain, Canada, Australia, and some smaller European CBs. But the French, German, and Asian CBs have a very different attitude.

This down for the count attitude towards gold reminds me the conventional wisdom about stocks just before the market took off in 1982 -- down for the count.

Once the dominant investment paradigm of low inflation at all costs, privatization, and steady movement to the political right is shattered ( as I think it will be in the near future ) investor and CB attitudes will undergo a sea change.

Glenn: I think you are right about gold going lower, but I wouldn't want to be short at these levels. The risk/reward ratio very unfavorable -- gold has much more upside than downside at these levels. You stand to lose much more if you are wrong that you will make if you are right.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 20:43
M.Graves @ Valley >(@ Valley ):
Ted : The seagull is laughing all the way home!!!!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 20:37
vronsky CRYSTALLEX INTERNATIONAL's Recent Price Increase>(CRYSTALLEX INTERNATIONAL's Recent Price Increase):
Many have been watching the stellar price rise in KRY. Here’s WHY:

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 20:36
XAU - The low for tomorrow should come in between 96.75 - 96.20. If for some reason it opens below 96.20 there could be a severe drop. If it holds a powerful rally over the next couple months with gains of 25%+ will result.
Gold - Based on monthly Gann charts this month's low should no lower than 336 base June Contract. Any rallies will not exceed 400. The final low will be near 325 in July 1998 one year from now. At this point time and price will come into equilibrium. This chart is based on the 1976 low.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 20:31
TED @tort>(@tort):
Tort: Yer too late...I just blew his head off!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 20:28
Tortfeasor note for Ted>(note for Ted):
Ted, the guy in blue coming up to your door is the mailman, not WW; don't shoot him. I'm off for the evening duties. Keep gold afloat while I am out.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 20:25
TED @mainlander>(@mainlander):
MGraves: We've turned the corner! EBN Gold is up a nickle...holy cow!....
The word in Cape Breton is that big trader is Alexa.....Talk about shootin yerself in the we have NO representation...duh...You should have seen the front page of the Cape Breton Post yesterday...puke!
ISLAND GOES NDP....should have read: ISLAND GOES TO HELL...

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 20:25
Tw @home>(@home):
WW your question regarding how much the CBs earn from gold is very interesting. My question is why would Merrill rep be trying to imply Central Banks earn nothing from gold when in fact they do.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 20:12
M.Graves @ Valley>(@ Valley):
Hey Ted : Could you ask Big Trader if he voted for reform? I wish he would reform the price of gold!!!I wonder what theory he has, on what will trigger the Dow in one direction and gold in the other?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 20:01
Ww @New England>(@New England):
Comments on Steve's post for GS Cole RE Gold demonetization which if like silver will mean a 2/3 decline in gold over time; ( or has the decline already occurred through derivitive sales ie 850 to 325-400 area. ) IMHO Wishful Ted Arnold of Merrill Lynch says CBs want to switch into higher yielding assets. I dont understand his argument as CBs earn money off of gold loans and option sales. Is this less than they could earn than by selling gold and buying debt. Ted Arnold is always a gold bear and pro financial but has his overzealousness caught him in a contradictory argument. IE CBs want higher yielding assets but TED fails to mention the yield they receive on their gold. Or do the newly minted MBAs rule the roost and are gold haters. Experience of the last 15 years could make one that way.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 19:54
vronsky Seven Golden Threads of the Global Quilt by Oracle of Alberta>(Seven Golden Threads of the Global Quilt by Oracle of Alberta):
Virtual Eagle’s eye view of global gold paradigm. Is it a plot to create a single world currency? Erudite & exhaustive analysis by Oracle of Alberta:

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 19:47
TED @glenn>(@glenn):
Glenn: As usual good post! What do you think that low for Gold will be?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 19:38
Gold has fallen a decent amount since my last post on Friday evening. Today's closing action looked slightly exhaustive. This doesn't mean I would go long here but rather let the market rally tomorrow and then short it again. A bigger rally may take place next week but the final low is still a couple weeks away. I am bullish on Gold during the months of July and August. How bullish depends on how far down we can go during June.
All in all today was rather dull with all the action during the first 1/2 hour and last 15 minutes.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 19:32
WW @New England>(@New England):
I went to a futures seminar a few years ago given by one John Hill and his daughter. He made a good point when he illustrated two graphs one where there had been a protracted decline followed by flatness and one where there had been a protracted advance followed by flatness. He asked whether we thought the mkts would reverse or continue in the prevailing direction. Most said reversal. He pointed out that this was incorrect as if a market is really improperly priced at a given level selling or buying will quickly ensue to reverse whatever excess. Gold and silver have been basically flat for nine weeks after a decline. Using John's analysis it looks like further losses will ensue. Maybe to truly bottom out we need to retest the 1985 lows. Hope I am wrong and GS Cole is right. But the mkt action feels lower and the length of the sideways movement makes me feel it could do so significantly. Hopefully a spike bottom. The only bullish point is that sometimes my feelings are a good contrary indicator.

We are so frustrated with the metals that staying in when the true bull occurs will be difficult given uniquely frustrating experiences with this market over the last three years.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 19:32
Ted: Oh.....sorry. [g]

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 19:31
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
REB: From yer palladium remark do I take it you are becomming pessimistic about Gold or somethin...or are you just wildly bullish on Palladium....

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 19:28
Steve (Perth - Western Australia)>(
GEORGE S COLE: George, help me. Please read the following which I have been thinking about for two days. ( Article from Financial Review ) . Very heavy stuff for them to admit this! My contacts who invest in gold at Rothschild's nearly choked! You comments please:

Gasp, oh Lord, said UBS's Mr Smith. Whether EMU flies, falls or just hops along, the role of gold for central banks in Europe will never be the same -- as large, as passive -- again.

EMU presages the opening of a freeway in gold's demonetisation.

Gold's journey from money to mere commodity [is under way].

The central bankers having thought the pragmatic thought . . . will not unthink it, Mr Smith said.

By this, Mr Smith meant that the role of gold as a reserve asset was being seriously questioned.

After the end of the gold standard 30 years ago, the ballooning of derivatives markets as a new source of hedging all sorts of risks, the floating of currencies, the massive opportunity cost of holding gold of $US15 billion ( $19.6 billion ) a year for the European central banks alone, Switzerland's imminent dilution of the link between the Swiss franc and gold and Germany's latest attempt to use gold to plug budget deficits, it is no big surprise that the view of the role of gold in 1997 might differ from the view in 1967.

Chase Manhattan's Mr Mehta added that downsizing of central bank gold reserves was not a European Union issue only.

It's now orthodoxy to manage [lend or sell] gold reserves actively.

The central bankers we have spoken to over recent years realise that gold is effectively a depreciating asset and without a monetary role, a London-based metals specialist for Merrill Lynch, Mr Ted Arnold, wrote earlier this year.

It is really a question of how to dispose of this asset and switch it into other more liquid and high yielding assets, while at the same time keeping politicians and the financially unsophisticated general public happy.

Gold is at the crossroads. Whether gold is on the demonetisation road as silver was back in 1870 is the primary issue.

If so, the gold price over the next decade will most likely head the same way as the silver price did between 1870 and 1910, when the impact of its demonetisation hit home. Silver, back then, lost two-thirds of its value.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 19:27
REB: Ryne Sandberg fer Christ Sakes...Cubs...Chicago...Hello...

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 19:25
Palladium is going to pass up gold at this rate.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 19:22
Ted: Ryno? Who/what is that?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 19:21
REB: Look at that...we double posted...

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 19:19
Up .20 in Australia. At least someone knows value when they see it.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 19:19
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
Tort: We started the day fallin out of bed and never got off the floor..
Reb ( 16:57 ) For Tort and my sake I hope you are right about the Mailman
and that thingy with the neon hair...Bein from the windy city what's yer take on he finished?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 18:44
Tortfeasor Just stopped in>(Just stopped in):
Just stopped in to view the damage having worked all day--rare occurrence for a lawyer. Ted, got you email. Thanks for the cool remarks. Will respond this evening when my kids get off the phone. Pretty discouraging market, this metals game. I am seeing too much evidence to believe that gold is going down for the count. I belive that today's getting knocked out of bed will only make gold's desire to get back in bed and in a bigger bed ( maybe the old king size bed ) ; sounds kind of kinky somehow but I sense the luster returning to the old yellow bars.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 18:41
Stargazer @saturn>(@saturn):
The selling is over

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 18:38
Reb- Karl Malone was born and raised just 4 miles up the road from me
and we attended the same university. Some fine guy!!

John Disney- agree with the values you calculated. Durban Deep and Harmony are exceptional values. Course ain't nobody got any money left
to buy gold or shares. Damn shame. One of these days shorts are gona pay! Thank goodness for Rebold or I would be broke. Course if AU does move I might own the world. Jest dreamin.

Tally Ho

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 18:32
George S. Cole gold rally>(gold rally):
GFD: We are on the same wavelength regarding the likelihood of an imminent gold rally. In this bear market bullion has usually rallied after 4 down days, but there have been occasions where we had 5 or even 6 consecutive declines before the yellow stuff picked up. So while the odds favor a rally tomorrow, there could still be another downer or two to go.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 18:29
Notnick @Bermuda>(@Bermuda):
Mooney..... It would be fair to say that I am very, very confused.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 17:32
Was there any significance to todays close in PGMs? Front month PL traded off at the close with the out month up 2.65 or so. While front month PA was up 20 or so and is still in heavy backwardation and getting worse. Would seem to be an excellent time for the PM shorts, with the really big cajones, to begin taking a renewed in interest in keeping them attached. Paradigm shift anyone?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 17:32
Notnick @ 17:15 - Thanks for the latest summary about BT. Would you say that those posts back up my 15:59?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 17:25
Earl @worldaccessnet .com>(@worldaccessnet .com):
Mooney: Au contraire. More like c'est la guerre. ..... and would you refrase that earlier post.... I didn't understand it all either .... ( :- ) )

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 17:25
Gene @Reality>(@Reality):

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 17:22
I think it was Ray who posted a comment on longer term options yesterday. This morning I decided to bid for some Dec 98 400s. The offer at the time was 470. With GC8Z around 366. I put in a bid at 400 and was surprised to get filled within in an hour. Whats next? Terms and put em on yer VISA card? .... Should have put in a bid at 350 - 380. Think its time to buy some more.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 17:21
It amazes me as I scroll back over the last 3-4 weeks comments, as to how this grand Gold discussion site has become a forum involved in the mission to convert a weine wacker to normalcy. C'est La Vie!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 17:15
Notnick @Bermuda>(@Bermuda):
The following are the comments I copied as written on KITCO.

Date: Sat Dec 7 11:50
Big Trader ( again@no lower! ) :
I want to thank my friend who post here on Kitco for leting me use his mail. He wanted meto add something to the group because I am, just that, a big trader ( name is not my idea ) . Hope to add a something each saturday.
Last Tue. Dec/3 I made a no@lower post. Myself and a group are indeed placing open
orders for Feb/97 gold on any breaks below $370.00 and will continue to buy each day under that price ( for weeks if allowed ) . We can and will call most or all of these contracts if the market doesn't rise enough for a rollover. Our cost and fees is such that it's
easier to buy paper here than physicals in asia because of the markup and comex is the
only area I would trade here .The only problem for the comex will be geting the shorts to deliver enough warehouse approved deposit receipts.Correct me if I'm wrong but they only have a few hundred thousand ozs for ready delivery. I will keep you posted. A note to the Old Man, you may find it hard to roll off a log. Thank you all and Kitco for this area. ( end of quoted post )


Date: Thu Feb 27 1997 23:10

Big Trader ( the writer! ) :
Let me clear up a few things. I am not the Big Trader! He cannot speak or write english and does not/would not post
here. He has a need to get thoughts to other people. I do not do well with english either. My relations with him are
private and restrict me from posting my own thoughts. If I seem to reply to someones post it is to clarify further for other
As we are guests here I should pay my way so let me toss out a fact that is stranger than fiction. Do some research first.
Search your books and papers, ask your advisers and letter writers, look at all of the charts. Those of you who are rich
and on the inside of gold companies and gold traders, ask if anyone alive had ever seen gold trade in the present
volumes that have not been seen in history. The shocking truth is that more gold has just been traded than is held in most
of the central banks. So much so that even the 100+ year old london gold pool was forced to admit to trading it's share!
I should think that the big investors on comex would have known this was going to happen! No? It could only have
been the people who were about to do this buying that would know ahead of time. Yes, only they would know that a
once in a lifetime buying spree was about to take hold.
Will gold go back down in price? They don't realy care!
Only on kitco can a trader find such good info. I advise every gold trader in the world to access this site every day!
There is only one person who knows me at this site. That person is the soul of discretion and integrity. Someday I will
contact him again
and he will learn my real name. May the force be with you, and keep your eye on london! thank you

Big Trader ( ( the greedy paid ) ) :
They thought noone had enough to stop the game. Soon a brief pause then the game continues. We will be ready.

Date: Fri Feb 28 1997 00:22
Big Trader ( the writer ) :
last, To all who use me, the 23:10 is not the trader. Will use uplink, not kitco again. Know me now, I AM THE

Date: Tue Apr 01 1997 14:48
Big Trader ( @far east ) :

Have taken much gold these days. CB games over now. Mr. Clinton and associates doing same.

Date: Tue Apr 01 1997 15:08
GFD ( Big Trader Post Confirmation ) :

Eldorado: Agreed. We need to wait for confirmation within 24 hours if it is a BT post -
unless something happens in Asia tonight... The post is a bit short and it is hard to
say if it is indeed authentic but if it is I would guess a close above 355 tomorrow....

Date: Tue Apr 01 1997 15:32
The Writer ( ) :

GFD: I will keep this address open as long as possible.
If you have questions I will answer on Kitco #2 under WESTLAND.
I t may take time for me to get the answers. All questions must come from you.

Date: Wed Apr 02 1997 11:49
The Writer ( thoughts! ) :

GFD: I have two email from you, no more.
We are at the end of a long travel. The road now forks, what way
to go? Many will chuse the bad path and the american family will
hurt as the world changes. Another writes, do you think as this?

Understand, that over the past few years physical gold has been
locked to the currencies more so than when it was used to back them.
Western traders have done just what the money printers wanted,
they accepted paper forms as gold. The lure was greed and it worked
very well for the printers. The future was always the key
someday the metal would rise and a great payoff would be at hand.
The years have come and gone and no payoff, no 500/600/700/ gold.
The truth, there will be no payoff for paper traders.
One thing has happened that will change everything. The PHYSICAL
GOLD MARKET HAS BEEN CORNERED! Any amount of large physical sales that
come to market can be taken. To a traders eyes this cannot be, why is
the price not going straight up? Why should it, westerners are still
trying to rid themselves of metal and hold forward gold ( that is not
cornered ) and any other form of leveraged gold. There is no shortage
of paper, but there is now a real shortage of gold! Anyone who thinks
that the central banks and their billion ozs of gold are a threat to
this market have no idea how big real on/off market trading is.
So, how do we see when gold will rise in all currencies? A slow fall
in the price of paper gold and a opposite spike in real gold price will
make westerners leave all paper and try to buy real metal. The rush to
make good on forward sales will cause the market to lock, overnight.
No bank failures, no depression, no stock market crash, no war,
no inflation, just a worldwide shutdown of all on market gold trading.
That includes all forms. The western traders will still own all of their mining stocks
and gold and futures, they just won't be allowed to use them. But don't you see, they didn't
want real gold anyway!
It was always the others that needed it,,,,,,right?

Date: Wed Apr 02 1997 12:38
GFD ( The Writer ) :

The last post by The Writer ( 11:49 ) is authentic ( as far as my communication with him ) .
His post is interesting. I have involvement with a small mining play and there has been some
discussion by investors whether to keep it private and collect gold dividends or go public and
collect paper. Some are very sypathetic with The Writer's view of the world.

Date: Thu Apr 03 1997 12:50
The Writer ( thoughts! ) :

GFD: I have two more mail and some answers.
We speak more freely now, draw close and think. Who will stand first,
who will be last? The writer will say my thoughts.

If a person has more than enough for life others will receive it in time. But time is the enemy
of all things created by humans. All who live now will see change, as those before us. In your
history one can hear the voices of many others who lost all things as time marched on. If you
are of a present day mind your thoughts are only of the here and now. If this be true then draw
your sword and make ready to battle. Time and change are about to attack your wealth. There are
some who have eyes that see a thousand years past, they know of gold! Know me now, time has
tested it, and lost! Gold is not money, not currency, not an investment,it is wealth.
The second american family is here, and time and change are ready for
battle, are you?

You own a house and one day you are given a clear deed and told to move out. Another now lives
there for free. The deed may be used as currency if another will accept it. All know you are
wealthy, the deed says so! The deed is clear, but is it free? Are you wealthy or is your wealth
only in the mind of others? Much of american wealth is truly the thoughts of a nation, drifting
on the wind!

Why would rent out a house for less than the going rate? If there are so many for sale
just like yours, why not sell and put the money in the bank at a higher return? All know
you can buy it back at a much cheaper price! Or is the lease rate low because you know you
MAY NOT GET IT BACK AT ALL if you sold? Some realtors only trade cheap property, know also
one who has traded with the sun!

When? You ask. Look in a mirror, be that person from the west, he will
lead first! And that same person did supply the shortfall for he holds paper as proof!

Date: Thu Apr 03 1997 20:37
GFD ( More On Thoughts ) :

So far I have asked The Writer four questions, three of which he seems to have answered:

1 ) What did he mean by an earlier quote about our currency being in jail. I believe his ( partial ) answer the paragraph about having the deed to a house ( gold ) but not physical posession. However, I feel that this is a superficial interpretation. The real answer is the last ( beautiful ) sentence. Manias are nothing more than than thoughts blowing in the wind.

You own a house and one day you are given a clear deed and told to move out. Another now lives there for free. The deed may be used as currency if another will accept it. All know you are wealthy, the deed says so! The deed is clear, but is it free? Are you wealthy or is your wealth only in the mind of others? Much of american wealth is truly the thoughts of a nation, drifting on the wind!

The thing that suffers most upon the collapse of a mania is credibility - or credit, financially speaking. Historically, the Bank of England just about folded several times in it's history and was only saved by boat loads of gold, literally - excluding one that sank!! So if the paper goes poof what is your credit rating. To put it another way - what are you worth James Grant's book about Banking and Bonds is called Money of the Mind. So where WILL america's thoughts drift when a storm comes?

2 ) Where is the gold coming from to meet physical ( jewelery, etc ) demand? I believe his answer is bullion dealers and banks:

Why would rent out a house for less than the going rate? If there are so many for sale just like yours, why not sell and put the money in the bank at a higher return? All know you can buy it back at a much cheaper price! Or is the lease rate low because you know you MAY NOT GET IT BACK AT ALL if you sold? Some realtors only trade cheap property, know also one who has traded with the sun!

Intitially, when I read BT's references to westerners foolishly exchanging gold for paper ( forward sales, etc. ) I superficially interpreted this to mean ma and pa dumping their eagles for Microsoft or something. However, Vieserre's excellent posts over the last day have got me thinking that the real price setting and control of physical gold is the bullion dealers and their associated banks. And what has everyone been doing lately? Gold Loans, forward selling, etc. This implies that the swissies and the brits have ( had ) a lot more of the good stuff than any statistics indicate. These are probably private stocks that were off the books - such as hoards from European nobility, etc....

3 ) The third question was when would the bubble pop. I believe his answer is in the third paragraph:

When? You ask. Look in a mirror, be that person from the west, he will lead first! And that same person did supply the shortfall for he holds paper as proof!

This is a bit more straight forward, particularly if the west is really the bullion dealers, CB's, banks, etc. So what happens if someone's friendly banker calls a gold loan in this superheated and obviously distorted environment

Have to get going. Will check in later tonight or tomorrow!!

Date: Sun Apr 06 1997 20:25
The Writer ( Thoughts! ) :

GFD: Yes, you are very close. I receive one mail. CMAX: Yes, you are thinking also.
I hear the western countries have 300/400 million people. You know they are real.
All other countries have several billion. The Big Trader knows they are real and
is close to some of them. He is small and slow, but many hands can hold a large

Can you think this can happen? Another hand writes.

Gold is so old. Such a rich history. An educated western mind cannot begin to
understand it! We live in a time of closed thought and controlled perception.
How could we have known that two thirds of humanity would still think of
gold as wealth. It's not that they are right or wrong to think this way, it's that
we want them to work for us! That is the problem! And when they worked for
us we paid them! And who in the hell would have thought that they would
have used so much of that pay to buy gold! Some bought in tiny amounts and
some bought in large amounts.
This started with the new world trading order that came into being about six
years ago. By now that gold is so spread out it would take 20 years and 5
small armies to get it back, I think.

An interesting look, yes. Now the writer gives a view for tomorrow.

A western cowboy phrase, cut and run ! You have heard it before?
Many had thought that the physical market would always have a great supply.
The future selling during the last few months should have pushed the real
price thru 300 by now. At that level most of the contracts could have been
closed out. Now the buying is done and the vol is drying up! I hear that some
do not want to play this game any more. This week I expect to see a cowboy!
Date: Sun Apr 06 1997 21:50
GFD ( Another Hand ) :

It is interesting to note that BT has a western friend who included some of his own thoughts in the middle paragraph starting with Gold is so old. Such a rich history. An educated western mind cannot begin to understand it! We live in a time of closed thought and controlled perception.

In my reading and surfing I have noted that VERY informed persons with apparently close connections with the intelligence community have been concerned about the manipulation and control of the public's perception of current ( and past ) events. This is true also of sophisticated observers of the spooks. Another Hands comment about controlled perception makes me wonder if BT has an advisor with a ( western ) intelligence background.

Hows THAT for reading between the lines! And going waaay out on a limb!! ;- )

Date: Sun Apr 06 1997 21:34
GFD ( The Writer ) :

I would like to confirm that this is a BT/The Writer post as I only sent one email to him after his last post. I primarily enquired as to whether I was close or not in my ( Thurs Apr 03 20:37 ) interpretation of his last post. It would appear that I was. It would also appear that CMAX is *close* with his Sat 23:11 post.

I also enquired he had also sent a post by SimpleMan ( faraway ) Thurs Apr 03 16:27 which implied that we had 6 to 8 weeks to get our affairs in order. I am not sure I have an answer to that but his most recent post just about says the same thing.

The key thing here implied by his posts is that this will be a bullion dealer/banker problem first or that the crises implied by BT will be triggered by the bankers wanting their gold back due to loss of confidence. This is the historical mechanism by which mainias collapse and cause economic trauma. Confidence in credit is shattered by some speculative bubble popping and everyone starts calling in loans. As I said in my last BT post, several of these manias just about finished the Bank Of England - the primary CB's these days.

Some have rightly questioned here why someone like a BT would want to post to us bugs here at kitco - other than a shared philosophy. I have wondered this too. However, if we are talking about a banking problem this may be an excellent forum if you know for a fact that brother Al ( Greeenspan ) is lurking hereabouts ( and even reputed to have made posts here under the handle of Oracle ) .

If I were Bt I would want to make a killing without killing the system. What is the point otherwise He has implied that he has taken his position and is just waiting to cash in. If he is impatient he can try - every so discretely - to rattle the cage a bit. If Al is indeed lurking and sees what BT is getting at he will now realise he may have a system problem with respect to the bullion dealers and their associated banks.

In any case the primary body that will be dealing with this is the BIS ( Bank for International Settlements - CB country club ) . The BIS is VERY secretive. I would be shocked if there was any news leaked. If there was it would come from Europe, most likely London.

However, when you have a credit crises interest rates spike. Keep an eye on the kitco lease rates page for any twitches. If BT is correct you will see open interest dry up and lease rates spiking to historic highs ( 6% ) .

Date: Wed Apr 09 1997 11:11
The Writer ( More Thoughts! ) :

The Writer ( Thoughts! ) :
GFD: I have other mail.
Anyone not allowed to read this? Stranger talk, Perhaps?

London unspins, but the World does not notice. Tiger wiskers,
are ground fine and prepared for the feast. Eat carefully, West.

1. Who would be a goldfish?
2. Do the Others know?

Date: Wed Apr 09 1997 11:06
The Writer ( Thoughts! ) :

GFD: I have one mail.
As a group, paper makers are very strong. But one has cut and run!
He has come to town and wants to join us! What is this? I see other
cowboys coming down the trail! For many years they had fun. Now
a tiger chases them into town for help.

Can anyone allowed to read this? Strange talk, Yes?

people told them not to take it under 365. Well they did and
look at it! Now the fools want to unbolt the tables and chairs and
sell them to save their skins. 15 bucks down and how many billions
under the table. It's gona look like a giveaway or a sellout. Heads
are going to roll in the alley when london unspins this.

1. We should not speak of this.
2. This is only in the minds of traders and thinkers. It has not.

Date: Wed Apr 09 1997 11:43
GFD ( Truth and Consequences ) :

The post from The Writer at 11:06 is legitimate. The second post at 11:06 is a stinker - along with Ivor Bigbody. It would be nice if Bart would take imposters and make them take a long walk on a short pier...

However I DO find it interesting that the fake BT and Mr Bigbody are saying more about themselves than I suspect they want to - Monty Python indeed! Well it will be interesting to see what movie Mr Python will make out of the mess over in London!! So Ivor, how's the weather in London these days

Date: Wed Apr 09 1997 11:59
GFD ( Who has questions? I have answers!! ) :

I don't have time to properly comment on the legitimate ( 11:06 ) post from The Writer, however he did give two answers to questions that I did post to him:

1 ) This was a question about parties that were rumoured to be big players once upon a time. I will respect BT's privacy here and not talk of this.

2 ) The second question was whether the US was writing calls. It has not. When I thought about it I realised they could not because it would be illegal to have the calls excercised...

people told them not to take it under 365. Well they did and look at it!

My thoughts exactly! :- )

Date: Wed Apr 09 1997 19:14
GFD ( Thoughts ) :

For those who are interested here are my comments on BT/The Writer...

Firstly, I made sure that Bart had both our real email addresses so that imposter issues could be adjudicated by him if things got out of hand. Having a password for handles would be the way to go for the longer term.

It appears that The Writer is restricted as to what he can say publicly and so the delphic quality of his posts... What he is saying seems to be relevant to the very private London market and not to the open markets per se. There may be lurkers out there that he is targeting besides the usual suspects on this site.

Most of The Writers posts have preceeded big developments in the markets within 24 hours. As far as I can see, this is not true for his last post ( Sunday 20:25 ) . However, what I AM seeing is the markets trading within an EXTREMELY tight range this week, particularly in New York. I wonder if this is deliberate ( but covert ) damage control while some mess is being straightened out in London...

In an earlier post I had said that one of the signs of problems in London would be open interest drying up and lease rates spiking up. Glenn posted today ( 09:45 ) that open interest for the COMEX gold is at the lowest level since 1995 so one possible symptom is in place. The Writer never seems to post unless there is something ( not necessarily obvious ) happening to back up his posts and so this might be it for his last post.

people told them not to take it under 365. Well they did and look at it! Now the fools want to unbolt the tables and chairs and sell them to save their skins.

This may imply a selloff of US and European stocks and/or bonds in the next day or so other assets to cover delivery requirements in London.

15 bucks down and how many billions under the table. It's gona look like a giveaway or a sellout. Heads are going to roll in the alley when london unspins this

This whole post seems to be about the problems the bullion dealers and banks are going to face when people discover that their gold was sold for peanuts. However, this may be a little too superficial. BT made a post a day before Bre-X was first halted that had a line about governments confiscating mines. Which could be what happens to Bre-X over the next few months.

So I wonder about billions under the table. It's gona look like a giveaway or a sellout.

Date: Sun Apr 13 1997 21:49
The Writer ( Thoughts! ) :

GFD: I have four mail, one good, two dum and one different!

Ted B. : a light vault holds much paper !

1. No settle, it spread far and wide. The price must slowly fall
to stop a problem.
2. Table? A Euro size trouble, all will read of it.
3. No. A plain thought from a another .
4. You are seeing it now.

I will rest now

Date: Sun Apr 13 1997 22:55
GFD ( Thoughts ) :

will provide a decode of the writer's latest in a couple of hours as I don't have the time right now. The cryptice answeres are to questions
I emailed him.

Date: Mon Apr 14 1997 00:55
GFD ( Thoughts ) :

I sent four questions to BT/The Writer and a couple of dummy emails ( just to keep imposters hopping! ) .

1 ) I asked him if there would be a cash settlement or would there be something like a short squeeze. His answer: No settle, it spread far and wide. The price must slowly fall to stop a problem. This implies that there is not one person or group but rather a large number of parties who want their gold in a sock, but that the paper ( open ) markets are being manipulated to stop a problem - gold loans and forward selling out of control Mooney in his very interesting 23:15 post may be close to the truth.

2 ) I asked him to elaborate on what he meant by billions under the table in his last quote. I wondered if there would be a big scandal coming because dealers have loaned ( effectively sold ) gold that they did not own. His answer: Table? A Euro size trouble, all will read of it.

3 ) I asked him if I was off the mark in stating that another hand in his last post had an intelligence backgroud. I was. No. A plain thought from a another

4 ) Later I asked him whether it was possible that some of the selloff in the stock markets was in part attributable to people scrambling to sell other assets to meet their obligations in the gold scene: You are seeing it now.

Date: Mon Apr 14 1997 01:08
GFD ( Thoughts on Thoughts ) :

The Writer responds to my questions as well as well as posting his own thoughts. So if you see a post from him with numbered answers they are in response to my questions. All this is to deal with the impostor situation.

I think that Ted Butler and Mooney are on to something which elaborates what BT/The Writer has been talking about for some time.

The one thing that is a fly in the ointment for me is that he implies that the price of gold is being held down as part of some crises management excercise. Most likely the European gold houses and their CB's are in the throes of an unpleasantness that eventually will be publicised. Loans and forward sales may be constrained and gold will start a very solid bull market.

I suspect that gold may be flat to down for a few more weeks but not months.


Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:23

They will not sell platinum and they will not sell palladium and
now they will not sell gold! That is why the “writer”
( along with more than a few others ) has gone to Europe.
For many months open metal was purchased only as it set
free by falling prices. But the paper contracts are never
made good . People were asked to “stand down” as the
market came to them . It no longer happens now as your
own banks have said no more. The future will now be as
the past! When is a “fact” accepted as real? Only when it
comes from a factual source? Or when it is experienced as
a real life event!
For a time in past “all new supply was spoken for”,
now it is “spoken for times two”.
Germany will not back the writers again. They will revalue
and hold at all costs! The Swiss will sell a very small amount
in the future at a much different price.
The Dutch will “swap” no more. These cowboys have cut
and run. South Africa now will compete with “the Trader”
as a buyer! London has told them!
Then I should think we are done, as people will “stand down”
The Trader is at his cross road, one path and more time
will pass. The other path and the gold market, “as all now
know it” will exist no more.
Uplink off, find me here.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 17:11
Lurker 777 @ Golden opportunity>(@ Golden opportunity):

Would someone post B.T. last few posts or dates so I can look them up.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 17:09
Mooney @Jack@Tues. June2@00:12>(@Jack@Tues. June2@00:12):

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 17:04
cyclist platinum pull >(platinum pull ):
Mooney@ 16:12 :IMO the lows are in that is contraire to my own projection as the lows for bullion would be sometimes next week.If platinum is withheld from the marketplace in the coming days, the ramification to the stockmarket could become quite interesting to say the least.This action
could have an influence to the other metals as well.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 16:57
Ted: I expect Karl Malone to have fire in his eyes tonight. The guy with neon hair is in for trouble.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 16:52

Hope the big guy is right. Go for the gold.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 16:49

Hope the big guy is right. Go for the gold.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 16:40
TED @jin>(@jin):
JIN: Thanks for the e-mail and I'll be getting back to you soon!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 16:38
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
Disappointed ( 9:49 ) Why should anyone jump on yopu for saying the obvious about WW being a total bore....on purpose!...Sorry Tort but many in the field of law in the USA are parasites feeding off the sheep...He is purposely tryin to be a bore and irritant and any who respond to him are only playin his sick little game...

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 16:38
Byron - BTW - Re: Your 15:01 - IF the manipulation theory that many here are inclined to believe is true, I don't feel that the powers that be would try to extend control over ALL commodities. Throughout the centuries Gold has been the political metal and therefore is the significant one to control. Silver was linked with gold as a monetary metal until the recent ( last 15-20 years ) campaign to totally discount and refute this age old concept with the modern, 'Silver is only an industrial metal', brainwashing technique used so effectively by ( ? ) . In this way the control of inflation and fiat money has been made much simpler. No matter what happens to the price of any other commodity, as long as Gold is docile, inflation is under control. ( Witness the 25% appreciation of crude oil vs. the price of Gold last year - inflation - No!
Byron - Have a nap, and then see if you can make out what I'm saying in my posts. :- )

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 16:35
GFD Bouncy Thoughts>(Bouncy Thoughts):
George S. Cole: Given BT's timing ( posting just before big spikes ) it will be particularly interesting to watch gold market behavior over the next couple of days. The last spike ( after a post by SimpleMan ) fizzled out quickly. I suspect that there will now be a move of sufficient magnitude to test the intestinal fortitude of the shorts to the utmost. I am thinking it is positioned to take advantage of your observation that gold is due for a rally having gone 4-5 consecutive down days.

How well it holds up will give a good indication of where the hedge funds are at, assuming BT is correct in his implication that CB's are now standing down. This could be the crossroads that BT may be finding himself at. Interesting times indeed!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 16:21
GFD Thoughts>(Thoughts):
In the spirit of Tort, I have decided to contribute something to cheer things up - for our very dear friends the shorts!

BT's comment about the South Africans made me wonder about something. Nelson Mandela has made a point of continuing ties with countries and organizations that supported the ANC during their time in exile. Just suppose a few chinese central bankers dropped by one day to very helpfully point out that Nelson could do himself and his loyal friends a big favour by saving the poor gold shorts from their compulsive, self destructive behavior. Particularly in light of new China Russia friendliness. ( Surely not extending to palladium markets!! :-o )

I don't have any information to confirm this kindly thought but it does warm my heart and so I thought I would pass it on! :- )

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 16:20
John Disney>(
I've gotten some questions from Blyvoor holder about what the Dbn-Deep
merger would look like. Ive tried to make an analysis based on
absorbing the Buffels shares 77 for 100 and the Blyvoor at 5 to one.
Then Ive looked at the new company on the basis of cost of reserves, $/oz
and the cost of capacity $/oz of gold gold production. The new company
seems seriously undervalued - like the cheapest in the world by a long
shot. Comparisons are given with Barrick and a few other RSA mines.
Harmony for example is also extremely cheap

-------Shares,mill------Reserves,000 oz---Capacity,000oz

Blyvoor--50.77------------8.2-** ----------247
Durban D--9.55-----------7.7-***---------176****

* 1.1 surface
** 1.0 surface
*** 0.4 surface
**** after expansion sept 1997
New DD shares = 11.12/1.3 + 50.77/5 +9.55 = 27.84 mill
New DD capitalization = 27.84 * 21/4.47= 131 mill$

New cost of reserves = 131/18.1 = 7.2$/oz
New cost of capacity = 131 mill/696000 = 188$/oz

Comparison----Cost reserves-----Cost Capacity

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 16:19
Byron - Please be more specific in your queries. I don't understand what it is that you don't comprehend!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 16:12
cyclist @ 13:38 - I see where your reasoning comes from and Gold and Silver may very well rally from this point, BUT, the fact that Silver did not participate in the recent Platinum move means that ( temporarily at least ) Silver has decoupled from Platinum. Platinum is therefore showing strength based solely on supply-demand concerns. ( Would that Gold/Silver would do the same ) . Therefore, this recent Platinum move is not a signal for Gold and Silver as we would normally expect.
Addendum - As I have said in the past, when I believe that Gold has bottomed I will post a pertinant comment made by Louis 16th of France, which comment is, effectually, in operation at the present moment.
Ray - Everybody knows that inflation is dead and that is why the stock market is going to continue parabolic FOREVER!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 16:08
George S. Cole XAU>(XAU):
XAU down 1.9% today, HUI off a more reasonable 0.9%. ABX and NEM hit especially hard.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 16:07
Byron @ Rememberances Of the Past>(@ Rememberances Of the Past):
Mooney: IT WASN'T ME!!!!.. By the way could you refrase what you said - I did not quite grasp it all. :- )

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:59
IMVHO - Big Trader, ( if the last post is the Same Big Trader as we have had previously ) , Is someone not in control of any major inside info and does not speak for a group of investors as some have entertained. He is merely a prognosticatorsuch as others here who is trying to make a name for him ( her ) self. IMVHO. BBL

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:58
Barron's was right GOLD IS DEAD. Commodity indexes are breaking down
there is absolutely no inflation, buy Imega! Ha Ha Ha Ha

Tally Ho

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:55
Magum Opus of the Oracle of Alberta: Seven Golden Threads of the Global Quilt.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:49
Jack Mazarin Among Frontruners.....>(Mazarin Among Frontruners.....):

If you are inclined to consider NA companies with
profitable interests here, who are looking around the
globe at gold projects, then:
Check Kitco Daily News, Gold Daily and page down to
Mazarin Mining.
Also at, then hit Business and
Investing and put in ( ME:maz ) and also ( TSE:maz ) at their
quote box for news info.
Nothing certain, but the company rates watching.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:47
Bernie High Sierra>(High Sierra):
Plaintalker... re yours of Tue 08:34....Thanks for the information. Sounds like you had a great adventure! When you said you bought gold dredges what did they look like, cost etc. Are they legal to use now? I was born in northwestern Ohio, flat corn country, so this area is a treat for me. My next purchase will be a four wheel drive! Cheers.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:46
George S. Cole musings>(musings):
Big Trader: Good to hear from you again! But they sure were selling plenty of paper gold today. I too expect things to change radically soon, but the time between now and then will be difficult.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:38
Bob @...I hope you are right>(@...I hope you are right):
Big Trader: Refreshing.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:36
Byron @ The Public Library>(@ The Public Library):
APH: Thanks.... BT: Thanks.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:27
George S. Cole new lows?>(new lows?):
Junior: August gold down $2.10 today; your probably are right in looking for new lows shortly. But after four consecutive declines, a rally of some kind is quite lightly by week's end. If that bounce fizzles, new lows are are virtually certain.

Steve Kaplan expects that any move to new lows will be very brief considering the enormous physical demand that develops every time the spot price drops below $340.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:23
They will not sell platinum and they will not sell palladium and
now they will not sell gold! That is why the “writer”
( along with more than a few others ) has gone to Europe.
For many months open metal was purchased only as it set
free by falling prices. But the paper contracts are never
made good . People were asked to “stand down” as the
market came to them . It no longer happens now as your
own banks have said no more. The future will now be as
the past! When is a “fact” accepted as real? Only when it
comes from a factual source? Or when it is experienced as
a real life event!
For a time in past “all new supply was spoken for”,
now it is “spoken for times two”.
Germany will not back the writers again. They will revalue
and hold at all costs! The Swiss will sell a very small amount
in the future at a much different price.
The Dutch will “swap” no more. These cowboys have cut
and run. South Africa now will compete with “the Trader”
as a buyer! London has told them!
Then I should think we are done, as people will “stand down”
The Trader is at his cross road, one path and more time
will pass. The other path and the gold market, “as all now
know it” will exist no more.
Uplink off, find me here.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:15
APH ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''>(''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''):
Bryon -XAU gap 96.74

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:11
general PDLCF>(PDLCF):
I say, can I hear an AMEN for North American Palladium ( PDLCF on
NASDAQ ) , the purest palladium play in NOrth America? It is
still near year lows and thinly traded ( and yes I own shares ) .
Hop on board; Silver and Gold Report still recommends it.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 15:01
Byron @ Vaults Of Gold>(@ Vaults Of Gold):
Must irritate the Central Bankers to no extent, that they can't control the price of Platinum and Paladium like they can Gold. Probably searching their vaults to see if they can find any P & P but only that barbaric metal can be found.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 14:50
Byron @ Fill'er Up:>(@ Fill'er Up:):
XAU at 98.40. Just wants to fill that gap on the Weekly Chart. Somewhere between 97-98, don't have the exact number on the gap breakout. Anyone have the numbers?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 14:49
REB na>(na):
As I write this XAU is 98.43, the low so far. I will indulge in wishfull thinking and predict it will close higher than that today.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 14:46

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 14:01
I don't know arggh>(arggh):
I don't know about the rest of you but I'm getting tired trying to catch falling knives.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 13:38
cyclist buy @signal>(buy @signal):
IMO,Platinum has given a buy signal to the precious metal group,July contract
crossed the 410 marker.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 13:38
Junior The action is nice>(The action is nice):
George S. Cole: It is quite likely that the price of gold and silver have one more new low to make. This will be unconfirmed with most technical indicators. The TSE Gold Index probably bottomed as did the XAU. The next step, bullion to follow the stocks needs to show itself. I am watching a few things here. 1 ) Gold and Silver usually bottom the same day for a rally. 2 ) the completion of the 5th wave down on both. 3 ) a top in bonds and probably the equity markets. 4 ) an exhaustion bottom, leading to a more more powerful move up or a spike down to the 325 -330 range. ( the closer you buy it to that bottom the happier you will be ) . Bearish sentiment in the metals is rampant, judging by the conversations in this group and the interest displayed by brokers. I am hoping that the end will be the exhaustion route. We will see the metals having a couple of days up and breaking resistance trendlines and no one will believe it or be able to explain. They will describe it as another selling opportunity The spike down scares me more because the first wave was $40 from 420. If this wave down should be the same we may even test lower.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 13:29
Front @upandatum>(@upandatum):

George Cole:

Just a few minutes ago you posted:

With bullion leading the the way down today and the gold stocks reluctant to go much lower, a significant reversal is likely before week's end.

Clarification please...Are the gold stocks going down ( reversal from holding pattern ) or are they goin up ( reversal from the Gold dropping ) ?


Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 13:25
KEVA: Gold is very close to a new outbreak. The price-movements of the last weeks were: up to 360 down to 340 upt to 350 down to 340 up to 347 down to 341 - thats what I call a triangle - the next move will be much more interesting than the last where.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 13:23
cyclist industrial@complex>(industrial@complex):
The squeeze is on the platinum group metals,this will have adverse effect
on the industrial complex of the world.When is the markets going to react
to this event despite lower interest rates being pushed by the CB's.Will
be with interest to see when it is going to play out,IMO it is going to
very soon,

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 13:17
keva keva@westcoast>(keva@westcoast):
Looking the gold price in the face ( and what an ugly visage ) without some deep pocket ( pockets? ) how is it possible with such a world wide traded commodity, CB's, miners, hoarders, speculators, funds etc.,to keep a price in such a narrow range ( 340-345 ) for such a protracted time? Has anyone seen a name on the pocket?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 13:15
bw Money Market Mutual Funds:>(Money Market Mutual Funds:):
Most of the assets of the trillion dollar MMF industry are in commercial paper. There is a little gov paper but not much. The commercial paper swindle has grown vastly in the last twenty years. Only a few years ago the total issue of commercial paper was only a few 100 million. There was good reason for this, very few companies should receive totally unsecured loans and those loans should be small. With a commercial paper loan the company says. Give me 95 million now and one year later I will repay you 100 million. I will not give you any collateral and probably will not default unless everyone else does. When the company receives its cash it may use much of it to repay past commercial paper borrowings.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 13:09
George S. Cole bullion and stocks>(bullion and stocks):
When bullion leads the stocks, watch out. This applies on the downside as well as the upside. With bullion leading the the way down today and the gold stocks reluctant to go much lower, a significant reversal is likely before week's end. Recent action in platinum and palladium gives a hint of what is in store for the gold shorts later this year.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 13:03
news @for u>(@for u):

LONDON, June 4 ( Reuter ) - Palladium prices exploded to new

17-year highs on Wednesday in a market severely squeezed by

protracted delays in Russian supplies.

The gold market, however, ignored the excitement in the

platinum group metals ( PGMs ) , as it did the German drama over

plans to revalue gold reserves to qualify for European Monetary


Palladium, a rare white metal used in electronics, catalytic

converters and dentistry, fixed at $210 an ounce, the highest

ever level since prices were first formally set in 1989.

By contrast its previous fix on Tuesday was $188.50.

``The market is extremely nervous about Russian deliveries.

Palladium and platinum are much higher this morning even though

there has really not being any fresh news,'' said analyst

Hanspeter Hausheer of Swiss Bank Corp.

Platinum, its better-known sister metal, also jumped to fix

at a new 16-month high of $425.00 an ounce, compared to the

previous fixing of $406.50.

Both metals have soared since the start of the year -

palladium is up 85 percent from year's low and platinum is up 25

percent - due to administrative delays in Russian supplies to

key importer Japan.

Russia is the world's biggest producer of palladium and is

second to South Africa in platinum output.

The latest price surge started late on Tuesday as dealers

scrambled to cover short positions by borrowing or buying metal.

``Everyone and I mean everyone is a borrower. If there are no

lenders around all you can do its borrow stuff at very high

lease rates or buy material, which has been driving the price

up,'' a dealer said.

``It has really started to bite now,'' he added, noting that

one-month lease rates had rocketed to 90 percent or higher. In

platinum, the rates were at around 50 percent.

The market would remain extremely volatile as fresh news

emerges from ongoing supply talks between Russian exporter

Almazjuvelirexport ( Almaz ) and Japanese consumers, dealers said.

Both metals whipsawed off highs ahead of the morning fixing

on talk from Tokyo traders that Almaz officials had told

Japaense clients exports were expected to begin around June 20.

In other precious metals markets, gold fixed at $342.40 an

ounce, down $1.15 from the previous fixing and barely changed

from Tuesday's closing level in London.

The silver market was similarly stolid at a virtually

unchanged $4.74/$4.76. --London newsroom +44 171 542 2936

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 13:01
Auric Grab the bull by the shorts>(Grab the bull by the shorts):

Drat it all. How in Hades can Platinum be up over 5
bucks and Palladium up over 10 bucks, and Gold be
DOWN over a buck? This market is starting to become
down right irritating.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 13:00
panda @$>(@$):
AU/AG shorts, the PA/PL story could be in your future too.... Coming soon to a brokerage near you, the scariest movie of the year! Margin Call, staring the famous Locked limit up! 'Money back' if it doesn't scare the wallet out of your pants! ;- ) ) Preview now playing at the MYMEX. Rated 'S', adults only. Some material may not be suited for the faint of heart.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 12:56
cyclist breakout>(breakout):
July platinum is on the verge of a breakout 408.50,IMO 410 will be a major buy for the precious metals.Backmonth October went into the positive,393.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 12:49
panda @HA HA HA HA HA>(@HA HA HA HA HA):
To All -- The Wall Street Journal had an interesting story in the commodities section today. It seems that there are 900 ( PAM7 ) contracts open on Palladium. Problem is, there is only about 553 contracts worth of the 'stuff' around! OPPPPPS! Hmmmmm. Can I interest some PAM7 shorts in some physicals? SQUEEZE....

D.A. -- Time for some more rational exuberance!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 12:44
Auric @home>(@home):

Vronsky @12:10--I am pleased that Platinum is up.Now
can you please do something about gold?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 12:30
ark saltedcore>(saltedcore):
NEWLOOKERS:Buy gold at these low prices. Don't wait until
it is fasionable or Barrons/Newsweeks/Time/Money says Gold
is moving up, get on board Do it when people will laugh at
you. You will have the last laugh.

Me? I got in so early I still have a profit in some areas.
Ofcourse, I have a genetic defect, I'm a gold bug.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 12:10
Platinum +5.30, Palladium +13.35, Gold -1.20, Silver +2 cents

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 11:54
Ron !>(!):
you halos=your halos

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 11:53
cyclist supply @tightness>(supply @tightness):
Platinum sept. contract down .50,July up 5.30. Spread 17

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 11:49
Ron Attention, Liberal Stormtroopers!>(Attention, Liberal Stormtroopers!):
Psst . . . Did you know they are talking about snowmobiles over in rec.sports.snowmobiles?! I mean, Jesus Christ, the gall of those guys! Where's their compassion? C'mon now, boys. What good are liberal stormtroopers if they ain't barging in on every conversation in the world involving one or more people? Now let's get over there and raise some consciousnesses! Here are you halos.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 11:40
Platinum & Palladium soaring again! See the pure platinum & palladium play in US, Stillwater Mining - also Delta Gold ( platinum deposits ) in Zimbabwe. Analysis section:

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 11:23
panda @Platinum.palladium>(@Platinum.palladium):
Stillwater is moving!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 11:03
panda @Yawn>(@Yawn):
Boy, talk about boring! Someone wake me up when the metals move up.....

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 10:54
g-wall AMEN Brother BW>(AMEN Brother BW):
It's time for a peaceful grassroots movement to petition our
representatives/lawmakers to return our country to one of
for the people and by the people and not to the people by
the government. All it takes for evil to triumph is that
good men say nothing.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 10:09
Analyzing market numbers this morning, London gold is down -1.70, Comex gold is down only -1.30, the XAU is down only -.7, Toronto gold index is down only -45 ( a real down day is at least -100 ) , and Johannesburg gold index is down, I would say that the down forces came from Europe or beyond, not US or Canada traders. I consider that to be bearish.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 09:49
Disappointed @topic>(@topic):

I know someone's going to jump on me for this with 2 feet but.....

I quote from one of your many posts last evening:
Demand what you have paid for!!!
FINE, I will .....
I paid good money to be able to get onto the Kitco site in order to talk / discuss / analyse etc. GOLD and GOLD related topics.
I'm not trying to stop your postings at all, but IMHO it's getting a lot like a dog with a bone around here, and the bone hasn't been salted even a little bit with GOLD chat. Can we discuss a bit more GOLD please?
Thanks for your consideration.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 09:47
cyclist platinum>(platinum):
FWIW,platinum hasn't broken through the 420 area.Until it does,it is
either be short or on the sideline with gold.Volatility is increasing,
some kind of resolution is at hand within the next two days.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 09:40
Auric @Kohl cocked>(@Kohl cocked):

Student: Trouble in paradise? Such a story
deserves a double post.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 09:25
It's Magic! No, its Accounting!

FOCUS-Kohl backs Waigel after German gold compromise

Reuters, Wednesday, June 04, 1997 at 07:55

By Tom Heneghan
BONN, June 4 ( Reuter ) - German Chancellor Helmut Kohl threw
his weight fully behind Finance Minister Theo Waigel on
Wednesday but his embattled ally struggled to save face after
losing his grab for Bundesbank gold to qualify for the euro.
Kohl told a stormy parliament session Waigel would stay in
office and Germany, which needs to find 19 billion marks ( $11
billion ) to keep its 1997 budget on target, would still meet the
strict Maastricht criteria for Europe's monetary union ( EMU ) .
The chancellor rejected opposition calls for new elections
and brushed off an opposition motion to sack Waigel.
You know that Waigel will stay in office, Kohl called out
at hooting opposition deputies during the debate. He said
Waigel, whose plan revalue the Bundesbank's gold reserves
sparked off a mini-revolt among deputies in the government
ranks, was a strong supporter of the euro.
A delay would have an enormous impact on financial markets
and the German economy's chances in the export market, Kohl
said. The German government will keep firmly to the timetable
and criteria for currency union.
The debate, one day after Bonn backed off from its
controversial plan to force the Bundesbank to pay out this year
the profits from a revaluation, came amid rising calls for
Waigel's head.
Apart from the opposition parties, even the influential
business daily Handelsblatt said Waigel now had to quit after
his grab for gold shook the credibility of Bonn's preparations
for EMU.
Waigel did not get one step closer to fulfilling his aim to
meet the Maastricht criteria, it wrote. There is no way around
it. The only thing left for Waigel to do is resign.
In a fighting mood, Waigel told the legislature that he and
Bundesbank President Hans Tietmeyer had agreed an approach to
revalue bank assets and to pay out extra profits next year, a
gain which would thus be too late to help the 1997 finances on
which EMU qualification will be based.
But apart from saying no gold would be sold, Waigel gave few
details of the agreement, which he said was still under
discussion with the influential central bank.
Quoting the terms of what he and Tietmeyer agreed orally on
Tuesday, he said there will be a serious attempt to seek a
mutually acceptable solution that will permit a revaluation of
certain assets in the year 1997 with a pay-out ( of resulting
profits ) to take effect in 1998.
Details of an agreement would still have to be worked out
with the Bundesbank and then discussed by the bank's council and
the Bonn cabinet, Kohl added.
Tietmeyer said on Tuesday evening his urgent talks with
Waigel earlier that day did not deal with Germany's gold
reserves. The Bundesbank on Wednesday denied that this meant he
had denied finding an agreement with Waigel.
The Bundesbank President and Finance Minster Theo Waigel
made clear that no formal agreement has been reached. The
appropriate bodies have yet to give their approval, it said in
a statement.
The confusion over what the two men agreed dominated the
debate and opposition deputies accused Waigel of trying to fool
the public by suggesting an agreement when one was not there.
Kohl and Waigel also proclaimed unchanged respect for the
independence of the Bundesbank in monetary affairs but the
chancellor pointedly noted it must in turn respect parliament.
The legislature has the power to alter Bundesbank statutes.
Waigel said he had imposed a spending freeze, requiring all
new spending and expenditures over one million marks to have his
personal approval, and said Bonn would make extra savings and
privatisation efforts to finance the 1997 budget properly.
Joschka Fischer, the Greens leader who ranks as one of
Bonn's funniest speakers, had deputies roaring with laughter as
he lashed out at Waigel in the debate.
You don't deserve the Bundesbank's gold, but a gold medal
for creative accounting, he declared.
( $ = 1.731 German Marks )

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 09:24
It's Magic! No, its Accounting!

FOCUS-Kohl backs Waigel after German gold compromise

Reuters, Wednesday, June 04, 1997 at 07:55

By Tom Heneghan
BONN, June 4 ( Reuter ) - German Chancellor Helmut Kohl threw
his weight fully behind Finance Minister Theo Waigel on
Wednesday but his embattled ally struggled to save face after
losing his grab for Bundesbank gold to qualify for the euro.
Kohl told a stormy parliament session Waigel would stay in
office and Germany, which needs to find 19 billion marks ( $11
billion ) to keep its 1997 budget on target, would still meet the
strict Maastricht criteria for Europe's monetary union ( EMU ) .
The chancellor rejected opposition calls for new elections
and brushed off an opposition motion to sack Waigel.
You know that Waigel will stay in office, Kohl called out
at hooting opposition deputies during the debate. He said
Waigel, whose plan revalue the Bundesbank's gold reserves
sparked off a mini-revolt among deputies in the government
ranks, was a strong supporter of the euro.
A delay would have an enormous impact on financial markets
and the German economy's chances in the export market, Kohl
said. The German government will keep firmly to the timetable
and criteria for currency union.
The debate, one day after Bonn backed off from its
controversial plan to force the Bundesbank to pay out this year
the profits from a revaluation, came amid rising calls for
Waigel's head.
Apart from the opposition parties, even the influential
business daily Handelsblatt said Waigel now had to quit after
his grab for gold shook the credibility of Bonn's preparations
for EMU.
Waigel did not get one step closer to fulfilling his aim to
meet the Maastricht criteria, it wrote. There is no way around
it. The only thing left for Waigel to do is resign.
In a fighting mood, Waigel told the legislature that he and
Bundesbank President Hans Tietmeyer had agreed an approach to
revalue bank assets and to pay out extra profits next year, a
gain which would thus be too late to help the 1997 finances on
which EMU qualification will be based.
But apart from saying no gold would be sold, Waigel gave few
details of the agreement, which he said was still under
discussion with the influential central bank.
Quoting the terms of what he and Tietmeyer agreed orally on
Tuesday, he said there will be a serious attempt to seek a
mutually acceptable solution that will permit a revaluation of
certain assets in the year 1997 with a pay-out ( of resulting
profits ) to take effect in 1998.
Details of an agreement would still have to be worked out
with the Bundesbank and then discussed by the bank's council and
the Bonn cabinet, Kohl added.
Tietmeyer said on Tuesday evening his urgent talks with
Waigel earlier that day did not deal with Germany's gold
reserves. The Bundesbank on Wednesday denied that this meant he
had denied finding an agreement with Waigel.
The Bundesbank President and Finance Minster Theo Waigel
made clear that no formal agreement has been reached. The
appropriate bodies have yet to give their approval, it said in
a statement.
The confusion over what the two men agreed dominated the
debate and opposition deputies accused Waigel of trying to fool
the public by suggesting an agreement when one was not there.
Kohl and Waigel also proclaimed unchanged respect for the
independence of the Bundesbank in monetary affairs but the
chancellor pointedly noted it must in turn respect parliament.
The legislature has the power to alter Bundesbank statutes.
Waigel said he had imposed a spending freeze, requiring all
new spending and expenditures over one million marks to have his
personal approval, and said Bonn would make extra savings and
privatisation efforts to finance the 1997 budget properly.
Joschka Fischer, the Greens leader who ranks as one of
Bonn's funniest speakers, had deputies roaring with laughter as
he lashed out at Waigel in the debate.
You don't deserve the Bundesbank's gold, but a gold medal
for creative accounting, he declared.
( $ = 1.731 German Marks )

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 09:21
TED @ebn>(@ebn):
Every arrow in EBN commodity site is pointin DOWN...I'm outta here and off to the big beat up some SOCIALISTS...

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 09:14
George S. Cole liberalism and conservatism>(liberalism and conservatism):
Mike Sheller: You're right, down $1.50 is not the end of the world. Note this will be the fourth consecutive down day for bullion and there rarely are five in a row. So a rally can be expected shortly. It's strength ( or lack of it ) will tell us a lot about the odds of a final drop down to $330 or so.

Eldorado: I look upon the political process in a dynamic way, probing for direction as well as where we are at a particular point in time. The right wing shift in economic policy began with Reagan's big tax cuts. The political balance of power during the 1980s made it impossible to slash spending proportionately; hence the soaring budget deficits of that era.

Now that the political balance has moved further to the right, the powers that be are focusing on deficit reduction through spending cuts along with additional tax cuts. So the fact that we are still running substantial deficits ( although lower as a percent of GDP than Europe and Japan ) does not mean that there has not been a tremendous swing to the right over the past 18-20 years.

I also view the political landscape via a bottom line approach; namely which income groups have benefitted from ongoing political/economic trends. The evidence is overwhelming that the top 20% of the income distribution ( and especially the top 1% ) have vastly increased their share of the income and wealth pies since Reagan took office and are continuing to do so under the liberal' President Clinton

The booming stock market has overwhelmingly benefitted the very top of the economic pyramid. By contrast, the real estate boom of the 1970s and early 1980s, enriched the middle class primarily since most Americans do own their own homes.

Never forget that Clinton's economic polices are at least as right wing as Reagan's. He talks differently, but his actions have always been to the benefit of Wall Street and the Fortune 500. Do not confuse Clinton's corruption and cultural liberalism with economic liberalism. He is totally owned and controlled by the most powerful economic actors in the nation.

I still maintain that income and especially wealth differentials in America have become so egregious as to be incompatible with a stable democratic society. If the country's democratic processes remain essentially intact ( by no means a certainty ) , a shift the political left ( economic left, not cultural left ) is inevitable despite the virtual complete domination of the current political landscape by well-heeled conservatives.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 09:14
APH (?):
XAU - With this mornings weakness in gold the gap at 97 should be filled today, this comes a little early and allows for lower prices. Support is 96, a close under 96 would not be good for the short term.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 09:12
TED @mylawyer>(@mylawyer):
Tort: On such a grim day I thought I'd give you some background on yer client so you can plan-out my defense...hahaha...You got yer work cut fer ya!..JIN: HI!...Thanks for your great e-mail and I'll get back to you but for now I have to go to the big city for the day....should I stop at the CASINO?hahaha....

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 09:11
panda @!>(@!):
TED -- Disregard last post, Netscape problems!!!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 09:10
panda @>(@):
TED -- Good Morning! Message recieved, I got to attend to this nasty bump on my head though. Seems I was knocked out of bed again bythat yellow stuff. Speaking of mind numbed robots.... never mind, that would be an ad hominum. I keep on thinking, This is a precious metals site. isn't it? Got to go, meetings...........

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 09:02
Uris @DFW Airport>(@DFW Airport):
Eldo,Earl,WW: I just finished reading the overnight posts.You fellows
had a very spirited debate during the wee hours. I have some thoughts
that I will keep to myself only because I cannot type fast enough to
keep up with you. Besides, you dont need me anyway. You have it all
covered, dont you? Do all lawyers talk that much?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 08:58
JIN ABN..>(ABN..):

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 08:52
bw Our Constitution>(Our Constitution):
Our Constitution is being stolen bit by bit over the decades. Want proof? Unplug all your electronic soma and reread Our Constitution, line by line. What did our Fathers mean, for example, to coin money? You do not need to be a supreme court justice to understand these words.

One method is used repeatedly to steal freedom. A crisis is confronted or invented. Trade this freedom ,says the political leader, and I will give you relief. This is never stated explicitly but is couched in a lie. Those with political power lie, the free press repeates the lie, over and over. Government agencies publish studies affirming the lie, toadies in academia publish papers using the lies as assumptions. Day after day the lies are presented to the people as truth. At last The People weary of the crisis and confronted on all sides by the lies as the solution to their problems, accept the lies as the truth. The lies are written into the law of the land, the supreme court says yes this is what the Constitution meant ( even though it is exactly opposite of what The constitution said ) . And another piece of freedom is gone.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 08:49
Ha Ha Ha Ha

Tally Ho

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 08:31
Auric @Late Night>(@Late Night):

Top Ten reasons EMU will fail
10. Looks too much like an ostritch
9. Could not make it through boot camp with a name
like EMU
8. Took health care costs out of the calculations.
7. Bad mouthed gold.
6. Them Japanese cars are better than Renaults
5. More pay for less work.
4. Buba don't like it.
3. Emu's don't fly
2. WW took a long position in EMU call options
1. Hell, even the French can't stand it

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 08:15
panda @>(@):
TED -- Good Morning! Message recieved, I got to attend to this nasty bump on my head though. Seems I was knocked out of bed again bythat yellow stuff. Speaking of mind numbed robots.... never mind, that would be an ad hominum. I keep on thinking, This is a precious metals site. isn't it? Got to go, meetings...........

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 08:08
Mike Sheller fromkayakingupsidedownintherocks?>(fromkayakingupsidedownintherocks?):
TED: Oh how you just tempted me!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 08:08
TED @offthe floor>(@offthe floor):
Tort: Once again you have brought a ray of sunshine to an otherwise drab and grim day...Government work..hahahahaha...ditto how about dealin with THE BORE of Kitco...dronin on and on and on...Makes me proud to have left New England! Mornin Panda...burp..

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 08:04
Tortfeasor Random Thoughts>(Random Thoughts):
I just checked the EBN ticker. I haven't seen so many down arrows since Custer's last stand. George's comment that gold has fallen out of bed may be right. But then maybe it just wanted to get out of bed and get moving. Why does a chicken cross the road anyway? I'll tell you in a later post. I'm off for a morning walk to digest all this negative news. I just pity anyone I meet on the way.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 08:01
panda @>(@):
George S. Cole -- I hate it when they wake me up by throwing me out of bed! ;- ) )

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 08:01
TED @floor>(@floor):
Mike Sheller ( 7:40 ) Why do I have a big lump on me head then?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 07:58
TED @tort>(@tort):
Tort: Haven't gotten to yer joke yet but am headin that way...Tort: Can't ya do somethin about yer fellow lawyer WW...He is the biggest BORE I have ever had the misfortune to come across...SS..SS...SS...he's got a life..hahaha...

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 07:56
Auric This smoke mobile has wings(unlike certain currencies we won't name but it's initials are EMU)>(This smoke mobile has wings(unlike certain currencies we won't name but it's initials are EMU)):

Ted Butler 07:04--Thanks. Quite a ride ahead of us

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 07:46
Tortfeasor Bonus joke for a drab day>(Bonus joke for a drab day):
Judging from the fact that everything in which I am investing is sucking worse than an economy model Hoover vaccum cleaner I fell compelled for Ted's mental health and my own to post the following additional story.

There is this American tourist on a trip around Ireland.

When the tour arrives at Belfast he decides to go for a stroll with the aim of taking in this new culture. After he's been
walking for a while someone rushes up behind him and sticks a gun in his back.

The person says to the tourist, What are you, Catholic or Protestant?

The American thinks to himself Great--if I say I'm Catholic, this guy is sure to be Protestant. If I say I'm Protestant,
he's sure to be Catholic. Either way I'm dead. Then he has a brain wave and says to the Guy, actually I'm Jewish.
This, he thinks to himself, will surely keep him safe.

The guy behind him then replies Gee, I must be the luckiest Arab in Ireland.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 07:40
Mike Sheller steady@shegoes>(steady@shegoes):
Down 1.50 is hardly falling out of bed! Gold is now testing a stress line on the chart that cuts into the bottom area it has formed over the past month. Expect a probing as far down as $2.00, but a close at or above 344 - 344.50 basis August. If it can do that, we are going to try to take out 348 August, which will then put gold in the clear for some sort of rally out of its downtrend. If it can't do that, we might indeed see some sickening prices ahead. I'm still hot for that Saturn/NYSE Moon conjunction which is within 2 degrees now and SHOULD be kicking in for silver any day. If this conjunction is negative, we're all going down big time. I'll stick with history and stay with that July strength I've been looking for. Apparently it will be brief, but welcome nevertheless.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 07:38
Tortfeasor Government Work>(Government Work):
Gentlepersons ( to wax politically correct ) in deference to WW and his socialist fellowtravelers I post the following story demonstrating the ability of government to solve the problems of the great unwashed. I do this in the face of economic excrement which has just entered the air conditioning system and been expelled from the vents.

A farmer sitting on his porch noticed a highway-department
truck pull over on the road's shoulder. A man got out, dug a
sizable hole in the ditch, and got back in the vehicle. A few
minutes later, the other occupant of the truck got out, filled up
the hole, tamped the dirt, and got back in the truck.

Then they drove forward on the shoulder about 50 yards and
repeated the process--digging, waiting, refilling. After a half-
dozen repetitions, the farmer sauntered over to them. What
are you doin'? he asked.

We're on a highway beautification project, the driver said.
And the guy who puts the tree in the hole is home sick

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 07:26
George s. Cole rally>(rally):
Big rally! August gold now down just 70 cents.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 07:17
George s. Cole gold down>(gold down):
Panda: Unfortunately gold has fallen out of bed. The recent pattern of modest gains overseas, then heavy downward pressure in New York is repeating. August gold now down $1.20 after being up 50 cents overnight.
As long as the yellow stuff cannot repond to good news, the path of least resistance will be down. This pattern should be changing soon, but not just yet.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 07:11
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
EBN Gold down 1.50....WE need help Tort!...heeeeeeeelp.....

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 07:09
panda @$>(@$):
Is it me, or did gold just fall out of bed?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 07:05
Speed mornin' to ya>(mornin' to ya):
Looks like the battle slackened in the early hours. Any who would read further on SS privatization can find very good thinking at: The Social Security Privatization Site ( ) . Why fix a failing system when it could be replaced with a better one?

The German govt has backed down on the plan to revalue gold. The Central Bank won. What a surprise. That should be slightly bullish for gold and bearish for the dollar.

The best investment is still a good education. It can't be taxed! I'm off to Microsoft training, ya'll have a great day.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 07:04
ted butler timing>(timing):

Wish I could help you on the time frame, but I've been thinking any day for so long, that my guess wouldn't be much help. However, currently in silver some short term considerations do look favorable, such as COT, lease rates and recent spread rates and warehouse movements.

What I feel real strong on is that when the real move starts ( particularly in silver ) , it will be immediately out of control, moving faster and sharper than almost can be imagined.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 06:38
Mike Sheller Astrological Update>(Astrological Update):
Just an update of a prediction ( or, more properly, warning ) made on the Astrological Investor 10/15/96 post. The text was exactly as follows:

While it may not portend massive disruption in OUR lives, we still want to keep close tabs on SIERRA LEONE ( April 27, 1961 0:01 a.m. Standard Time,
Freetown ) . The transiting Jupiter/Uranus conjunction contacts this nation's
Jupiter, and squares its 6 degree Taurus Sun, in February. Neptune will also
approach natal 29 degree Capricorn Saturn here, oppose natal Mars at 25
Cancer, and square Mercury in Taurus. Involvement of the 1st, 4th, and 7th
houses could be indicating domestic troubles involving foreign interests or
partners. There are definite threats to authority and order here, including the
possibility of corruption, scandal, betrayal, and attack or invasion from outside the borders. Visitors who have ties to this nation be advised to be on your toes
from here on in.

Critical observers will forgive the delay of a couple of months for the political effects of what was going down in Sierra Leone to emerge at the beginning of June. Nevertheless, I offer this as a humble example of how the ancient art can be applied to modern geo-political observation and timing. Those who were forewarned may have had the chance to avoid the severe turmoil of the recent eruption of fighting and the frenzied evacuation of all American personnel from this unfortunate scene. I do not enjoy making these observations ahead of time. There is far too much human tragedy in this world. But there are effects flowing from the causes we set in motion that cannot be stopped, or settled, until they have run their course, or been confronted boldly and with wisdom and intelligence. Turn of the century America, and the West will have such an opportunity. I see no public evidence that it will be seized to anyone's future advantage.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 06:27
Mike Sheller Observations>(Observations):
Having returned from a brief absence, my heart grows fonder as I scroll thru Kitco in the morning. I see the great debate continues, unabated. Don't like to think of myself as a pessimist, but as an astrologer, I have to call 'em as I see 'em ( It's my duty ) , and I think it's all moot. The whole ball of wax will come undone in horriffic fashion before either a golden age of freedom or a total socialist victory emerges. Resurging socialism is a final, desperate attempt to fix it by the people and their representatives, and if effective will merely hasten an economic catastrophe. Socialism can only work ( for a time ) when it has something to redistribute. The kitty is getting awfully tight these days, for that. There will be no scraps to fight over when the apocalypse comes. The golden age of freedom will emerge only after this entire structure has disintegrated, and free social elements break away and create a gold-standard based constitutional community. Then there will be either gangster enemies or colonies. It is a chilling and disquieting thought as to what we will all have to go through. And our children and grandchildren as well. These things are not solved by any bi-partisan agreements, or consevative or progressive administrations. I fear that this thing we are on the brink of is the real thing. As usual, I find Cherokee's take on the great debate the most cogent, imaginative, and to the point.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 06:13
Auric @Teacher knows best>(@Teacher knows best):

Goldbug 23: Good point. Another example of a failed

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 06:08
Auric @One if by land, two if by sea >(@One if by land, two if by sea ):

Eldorado: Deriving their just powers from the
consent of the governed. Seems an antiquated
concept. Bring back Paul----Revere that is.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 04:29
Goldbug23 @Armageddon>(@Armageddon):
Auric: Why should the Clintons be different, the public schools are for the poor don't ya know? Here in Calif. a big percent of public school teachers send their kids to private school. How's that for irony? What a case for vouchers in my book!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 04:20
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Auric -- Actually, YOU don't NEED any of them written out. They are there for the government so THEY won't forget. Apparently, and like so many other things they don't do well, they also don't seem to be able to read and understand! Must be dyslexia or something!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 04:00
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Jack -- Thankyou! I appreciate your posting.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 03:57
Jack Religion>(Religion):

Eldorado: Religion taugh me rules, that when followed
will allow for harmony in my relations with others.
It taught me to strive to learn within my own
capabilities, and if prosperous; to first help those in
my own sphere -if they so required- and then to consider
those, not in my sphere by providing good quidance and
reasonable help. If I had a business and employment was
mutually beneficial to both myself and the recipient, I
would probably help.
I believe that government had good intentions, but was
bastardized by those whose only aim was/is profit at any
They have infiltrated it because, it's where the money
and influence is. The taxpayers money would be better
used, by the taxpayer.
Government should see that the law be carried out justly
for everyone within its borders. If a large company sent
to many jobs out of the US, I would tell them to leave.
There is always someone around that will take there

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 03:55
Auric @Taking the Fifth>(@Taking the Fifth):

Eldorado @ 03:35--Gotta love that Tenth. It has
been neglected in the last several years, has it
not. It's frustrating as hell, but it could be a
handy thing to have when crunch time comes.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 03:44
Auric Smoking>(Smoking):

Cherokee: Excuse a rant here but you touched a
nerve. Gawd, these hypocritical liberals gall me!
Did the Clintons send their kid to the public
schools in Washington D.C.? No? Why not? We spend
more per pupil in our nation's capitol than just
about any place else. Yet when it came time for
decision, guess what? Private school! Hell of a
good reason to distrust the people in charge I say.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 03:35
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Auric -- No question about it! Today, we can look back upon that August body of people who framed the Constitution and then the Bill of Rights and be surprised that at that time, they really didn't feel the need for a Bill of Rights! They just couldn't imagine a people that would forget or surrender their God-given rights to any power! And ALL of THOSE rights are not enumerated within the Bill of Rights! That is what makes those words of the 10th, The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people., so important!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 03:33
cherokee @there's-a-real-village>(@there's-a-real-village):
speaking of villages---

sure am glad the klinton's were able to find
a suitable village for their daughter!

cambridge has always been a village---for the wealthy elitists---

do as i say, not as i do! words for the masses to live by,
while the inside the beltway group, gropes everything in
sight, legal and illegal because they deserve it!

paula jones and how many others? and what with billary?
she has some BIG questions to answer dealing with the mossad
and vince foster.

how do politicians manuever around scandals? they create
bigger problems else-where. now that the ca-ca has begun to hit
the fan for them both, something is due, and soon.

about ww---

he has the same rights as all. that does not give any credence
or validity to ANY chappaquiudick, or whitewater holier than
thou, liberal mind-set bs. liberals want it ALL. they want control
over our money, our childrens minds, and, they want to TAKE CARE
ww--go look in the mirror, what so you see grasshopper? yes,
your hands are full of silver, and the betrayal of the
american people continues at an accelerating pace.
fodder abounds, which group will meet the eye of the

cherokee!; ) taker-of-liberals-smelly-hides-for-pet-skunks-teepee

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 03:22
Auric @Guns & Gold>(@Guns & Gold):

Eldorado @ 03:07--I think giving the the Tenth
Amendment the same backing as is given to the First
Amendment would help matters considerably. ( BTW, I
like the 2nd Amendment too! ) .... :- )

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 03:22
Bas battle for the middle ground>(battle for the middle ground):
Eldorado: Tony Blair appears to be pro EMU, but on his terms ( which we have yet to see ) . He has stated that he supports Margaret Thatcher's economic policies and intends to continue along the same lines. He has also adopted the political strategies used by Australia's previous labor government ( which pursued policies of low inflation, reduced spending, shrinking welfare, privatizing of govt assets ) to seize power by taking over the policies of the right. And European leaders ( except France perhaps ) now see Tony Blair as a political model for Europe, and presumably, left governments.

While budget cutting of left governments is likely to be moderate in order to maintain a human face, we are not likely to see the wild spending of past socialist governments.

For the purpose of this argument, socialism is about high taxation and big spending in order to fund socialist programs such as social welfare, job creation, etc.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 03:14
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Jack -- More properly, I.E. would not be capitalized, but most people would otherwise know that it means 'that is to say'. Typical usage. Now that I've explained that, perhaps you might share with us your definition of 'religion' as used in your recent postings.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 03:07
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Auric -- My argument is that we either have a Constitution in totality, or we don't have one at all! It can't be piece-meal! If so, which part ( s ) ? If any, why/when? If not any, why isn't it upheld in totality? Has there been an Amendment abrogating any of it except prohibition? None that I'm aware of. In the example I posed regarding SSI, either I'm a slave to it/under it, or SSI is 'legal'. Can it be both ways as long as I do not 'volunteer'? Actually, can it be 'law' as long as I do not volunteer to volunteer, meaning that I AM FULLY cognizant of what I am doing? Their forms do not 'disclose' that kind of information! What does that make 'them'?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 03:01
cherokee @take-it-to-prison-with-the-rest-of-the-DNC!>(@take-it-to-prison-with-the-rest-of-the-DNC!):
eldo, auric, wewe,and others----

the arguments of where systems are going ( ie...govt's, curriencies,
precious metals, etc... ) is quite easy to ascertain. the time frame
for them to reach these arenas is the real question.

as the past repeats itself over and over, there are swings from
one extreme to the other. there have been periods of seeming
normalcy, where predictability was,...well, predictable.

enter chaos. chaos has been around forever, but no-one ever tried
to enter it into the equations for predictability. this has been
done, and it is a beautiful and perfect fit. what does this say for
reasonable discourse on seemingly banal subjects? --- nothing.

these events will happen, sometimes on a regular basis, other-times
on irregular and violent basis. there will always be those who believe
they KNOW how to better spend the masses money, and show THEM the
correct way to live. ( it takes a village! ) these folks will vaporize
into thin air when the pendulum allows them some relief from the
ponderous and odious task of supporting their upper-most appendage.

cherokee!; ) hanger-of-copper-bulls-hides

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 02:55
Jack I'm stumped>(I'm stumped):

Eldo: Sorry, but I can't deciper what the term I.E.
means. Also some others leave me uncertain, but I forgot

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 02:45
Auric @The Bar and Grill>(@The Bar and Grill):

Eldorado @ 02:25--I am not quite ready to say that
we should forget the constitution, abrogated or
otherwise. Maybe we just need better constitutional
lawyers, eh?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 02:41
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Cherokee -- Actually, as un-befitting as it may seem, I kind of welcome the WW posts here! The responses to them will actually help awaken a few individuals to their plight! Else, many will go through life never knowing the golden age that could be theirs, or at least their childrens. Slavery comes in many guise. Many of these issues might never have been brought up but for WW! Thanks WW!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 02:33
cherokee @already-taken-care-of!>(@already-taken-care-of!):

ww has been assigned, by consensus i might add,
a name befitting his staure of grandeoise.

weine wackus protractus is the way i remember it,
or maybe just weine wacker. anyhow, anything inside
the beltway has many names, and hairy palms!!

cherokee!; ) rolling-on-the-copper-bull-hides

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 02:33
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Jack -- You too need to define your terms. I.E. religion.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 02:26

WW: Government is religion, gone astray.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 02:25
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Auric -- Actually, if we really had a 'Constitutional' currency of gold and silver, it would be very hard or even impossible to manipulate it! Therefore, I don't find that the 'constitutionally sanctioned manipulation of the currency' argument as justifiable under 'The Constitution'. Under an abrogated Constitution though, even 'democracy' can happen! Which do WE have?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 02:20
Jack at the law>(at the law):

WW: Is Federal Law, moral law? Just check the
government record out.
Is Government a religion?
Is Congress, the College of Cardinals? Is Bubba the
Pope? ( those of other faiths, please insert @ Cardinals
and the Pope )
WW please think about this, please, pretty please, aw
come on.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 02:16
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Bas -- That doesn't make total sense to me. Perhaps clarification is required. My take of it is that Blair will pursue EEC. In 'providing' that more 'humanic' face, it'll mean more government spending and more government controls, powers, and taxation. So what is your definition of 'socialism'? Perhaps people need to define 'their' terms here!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 02:12
Auric In praise of twist top wine>(In praise of twist top wine):

Eldorado: The point I am making is that the
manipulation going on in the currency markets has
constitutional sanction. I am only citing the
clause which allows it. Granted it's a fine legal
point, but if the average citizen was even remotely
familiar with the Constitution, then we might not be
in the mess we find ourselves in now.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 02:04
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
WW -- Is the 13th Amendment law or is some 'social security insurance' program the law? Which is THE LAW of the land? They BOTH can't be as they are exclusionary! I'll NEVER let you live it down if you DON'T answer!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 02:03
Bas @battle of the middle ground>(@battle of the middle ground):
George Cole: Despite the move to the socialist left in France, the trend generally between left and right political opponents in recent years is a battle to occupy the middle ground, which is where the electorate largely sits. The dry enonomic rationalism of the right is unpopular, and the left has ditched much of its unpopular socialist baggage, which is how Tony Blair's Labour party won the British election. The big spending left governments seem to be a thing of the past and the trend is towards more conservative economic management, but with a human face, which electorates appear to want.

What you are seeing is the left very effectively seizing the middle ground from the right, and pursuing more moderate economic and social policies ( as opposed to traditional socialist policies ) . Socialism as we once knew it is dying everywhere you look. Even French socialism is highly pragmatic.

This is my reading of the political signs and if I am right, then the political and economic upheaval that you forecast may not come to bear and should have little impact on gold for these reasons alone.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 01:55
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
WW -- Claim on S.S.? Why do you think it is different than any other corporation or insurance company that you might hold stock in or pay premium into? What is the written bylaws of it? What is the actual 'guarantee' of it? Have you seen it/read it? Your a beltway person. Perhaps you'll 'look' into it and then relate to the rest of us what it actually says. I'm sure that you would find a heartfelt thanks from everyone here for doing so, including me! No sense in pandering about when there are facts to be found out!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 01:45
WW @New England>(@New England):
ELDO: Our discussion was about the propriety of making good to those workers who have paid alot into SS and Medi which we must and will even if we have to take it out of cheater's hides. What you suggest about choice of paying into SS and Medi is not debatable it is the law. ARE you suggesting that people willfully violate FEDERAL LAW.
Dont tell me that. Breaking Laws is not debatable. Your comments are worrisome in their moral concept.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 01:35
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Auric -- That's just one of those 'powers' that has been abrogated. The Constitution apparently didn't 'say' that they 'couldn't do that! The Supreme Court won't 'rule' on it saying that it is a 'political' question. How about that BS?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 01:29
Auric @To coin a phrase>(@To coin a phrase):

Article 1 Section 8 Clause 5 of the US Constitution
says one of the powers granted to the government is
to Coin Money, and the value therof, and that of
foreign coin. Comments?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 01:28
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
WW -- You may volunteer for 'slave' service at your convenience. However, you have no right to volunteer me for it. That right is reserved to myself! So go ahead. Knock yourself out! Enjoy your proper socialistic status!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 01:22
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
WW -- Don't get me wrong. If people want to pour some of their hard earned mony into Social Security INSURANCE, that should be THEIR business. Any insurance company can fail at any time, no less than any company, corporation, or government of any size. Am I at risk if I should put my faith in a stock of a company? Of course I am! Am I at risk if a government should encounter 'problems' and its currency sinks to near nothing? Of course I am! Maybe you haven't heard, but Ponzi scams are also dangerous to ones financial health. What will it take for YOU to learn that? Perhaps you'll be the 'bag' holder!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 01:12
WW @New England>(@New England):
ElDo: Get a grip man!! Didnt know your guilt sensitivities could be touched off so easily. I am not asking nor is anybody asking you to provide for someone elses parent's retirement. You should recognize the claim of those who have/are and will pay TAXES into SS and medicare. This means you may have to pay some taxes to rightfully compensate them and others to make good on the earned benefits where the govt has used the surplus to keep interest rates low and maintain or increase the price level of some of your assets. Its ok your Reagan/Thatcher era is coming to an end and I hope you will get accustomed hopefully against selfishness.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 00:54
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
WW -- What? More BS? I'm the most 'INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY' type of soul I know of! What the hell does that have to do with providing for YOUR parents retirement? I thought that might be part of YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES if it hasn't already been done by them!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 00:47
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Mike -- Yup! THE Constitution IS THE LAW of the land! When a law does not conform to the Constitution, it is NOT a lawful law! If you want to make it lawful, then AMEND the Constitution! If the country does not want the Constitution to be the binding principle in law, then abolish it and have your 'whim-of-the-day-democratic BS'! There IS NO in-between! So tell me, if you can, what part of it made ME a slave?

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 00:45
Fidelity Select American Gold Chart, hourly prices in percent,
seven hours ( prices ) per day, for ten days.

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 00:43
WW @New England>(@New England):
ElDorado: Ok I guess you go on the record of being against personal responsibility. Many people have been are and willingly providing money to the govt for their Social security. Why do you feel they are not entitled to THEIR money and you and yours are. Sounds like a hypocritical std. to me. But then again what you think and want will not happen given those with a vested interest in the programs. Again how can one be so much against the proud working people of this country as to want to rob them of their EARNED retirement benefits. Amazing!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 00:33
Mike @>(@):
ELDORADO: Your argument could be carried further: I did not make the laws, so I won't abide by them...

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 00:28
Eldorado @the system>(@the system):
WW -- I guess it takes a 'beltway' type of fanatic to say that a tax increase doesn't hut anybody! That being the case, tax everything 10% more. How about 15 or 20% more! What's a few more percent! Eventually, it only amounts to pennys anyway! WW, It is not a matter OF supporting the Elders in retirement. It is a matter of HOW the Elders are to be supported in retirement! Remember the 13th Amendment? Perhaps I'll re-iterate here: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. So what is 'confiscation' called? What can 'involuntary' taxation be called? Who made me a slave to support someone elses 'retirement'? Is it MY fault that such an injust, ponzi scam system came into being? I wasn't born then. I didn't, nor wouldn't have, voted for it. It is destructive to future generations. I'll take care of myself, thankyou, and be no burden on my kids, or theirs, as they save for their retirement lives! I'll have none of your hogwash and BS!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 00:09
WW @New england>(@New england):
Eldorado: Why is it you insist on no accountability for the current payment of SS and Medi taxes. Those paying deserve the benefits.
If you believe they dont the a car thief should be able to come to your house and take your car. The fact you paid for it in your moaral realm must mean nothing if I interpret your comments properly. The broad based tax will work and hurt nobody.

Just to relieve you all I am not operating from a high powered govt surveiliance computer in Langley Va which is CIA Headquarters. Just funnin 6 pak!

Date: Wed Jun 04 1997 00:08
ark saltedcore>(saltedcore):
Anyone know what a EURO would be worth in terms of gold or
a bushel of corn? Will it be another layer of I owe you

It will never come to pass. European culture is too diverse.
The idea is just an excuse for the economist click to have
lunch in fancy places and visit interesting women while telling
their wives how hard they have to work.

Sooner or later all fiat currencies come to an end. Ledger
entries are not as valuable as baggage claim checks.

If you have the federal notes buy gold at current prices.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:57
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
WW -- Perhaps a better handle for you would be 'beltway'. It fits!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:55
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
WW -- Re: your 23:46. If you want to blame the worlds' ill on greed, I'm sure you'll have a lot of company! Perhaps a lot of THAT is due to a lot less moral teachings. You got a world wide cure for that too?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:55
WW @New England>(@New England):
6pak : when I am not working I enjoy the debate here and thus respond to the many responses to my comments. This is especially easy given my ultra high speed govt provided computer here in the beautiful Washington, DC Suburb of Langley, Va.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:49
Eldorado @the system>(@the system):
WW -- I really don't understand why you need to have new taxes levied to support your causes! After all, you and your 'kind' are perfectly free to financially support any damn thing you want to. Just make sure it doesn't 'infect' us! So what's the problem? Why do you all want to 'drag' the rest of us into your ponzi scams? Are you all control freeks or something? Go plant a garden or something. Take a stress pill!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:46
WW @New england>(@New england):
Eldo: good comments on my blame placing. I have personal experience with Wall St. et al and most brokers are pushed to tow the line by the big firms that would make Joseph Stalin blush. The little guys on Wall st are ok for the most part. The big and medium guys are very often so slimey they define slime/ they have absolutely no morals. I dont think it is their fault but rather the money driven culture to which they have been subjected. Nevertheless, these financial institutions very badly need ethics retraining. The legal profession through lawsuit threats is the only restraint as that threatens their almighty money temple.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:45
6pak WONDER @ Available time>(WONDER @ Available time):
WW : FYI Just a Notice, you have posted 13 times on June 03 1997
00:00 to 23:25. Are you working overtime, or are you on 3 days on, and 4 days off. Just interested, there has been talk, at this site, that agents operate from this site. It isn't possible that you are, is it?

Heavy remarks about workers rights etc. reminds me of left wing agents, that operate within Unions, and yes, right wing agents also.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:26
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Huh? -- Mouse bounce!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:25
WW @New England>(@New England):
LARRY: Glad you addressed the privatization issue. I hope others read your comments. It is impossible even if desireable. However, a broad based tax which was broad enough not to effect final demand and the economy might work. Offsetting any small deleterious effect of a broad based tax might be the confidenced gained by knowing the system works and that the funds will be available to provide for the benefits we baby boomers have paid for. Clintons 4 cent gas tax didnt kill the economy/ quite the contrary its deficit stabalizing influence contributed to the current financial boom. A broad based tax which doesnt effect demand which is connnoted as guaranteeing the viability of SS and Medi would be a tremendous positive. If you think this country can remain viable and stable without SS and Medi for baby boomers who have paid through the nose into the system you are very blind. Lets drop the stupid right wing rhetoric about personal responsibility when it comes to SS and MEDI as we are taking personal Responsibility by constantly paying into the system. If you propose no benefits then I propose a baby boomer strike on paying the taxes now. Lets see how the financial mkts take that. Fact is accomodations will have to be made. Broad based tax like Clinton gas tax which doesnt effect final demand is best vehicle.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:24
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
WW -- You do not place the blame squarely. A bit of reading of real history may help you in that regard. In-so-far as to whether a crash of the system would be cleansing, I'm sure it won't be particularly pleasant for the survivors. The dead, of course, won't mind at all. But all in all and well after the fact, perhaps humankind will have learned an important lesson. Perhaps they will also remember it for hundred years or so before they become stupid/complacent again! Perhaps they'll get REAL smart and figure out a totally different way to organize a system of compromise, while retaining real rights of the people!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:24
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
WW -- You do not place the blame squarely. A bit of reading of real history may help you in that regard. In-so-far as to whether a crash of the system would be cleansing, I'm sure it won't be particularly pleasant for the survivors. The dead, of course, won't mind at all. But all in all and well after the fact, perhaps humankind will have learned an important lesson. Perhaps they will also remember it for hundred years or so before they become stupid/complacent again! Perhaps they'll get REAL smart and figure out a totally different way to organize a system of compromise, while retaining real rights of the people!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:23
Auric @Asking Sage Advice>(@Asking Sage Advice):

Ted Butler: You have outlined the parameters
eloquently here as well as at Vronsky's site. Any
thoughts on a time frame?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:19
Speed nodding off>(nodding off):
Larry: You are right. Help my memory, wasn't it LBJ who first moved SS off-budget to help mask the Vietnam war expenses? Privatization wouldn't require new money being printed. Several workable plans have been presented by the Cato Institute Abolishing the system and giving bonds to the current participants would just transfer bonds and be an accounting exercise. WW is correct when he says that it won't be done. Political will is the ultimate oxymoron.

Some English friends commented that the French election results are partly a reaction to the continuing growth of a fascist movement. There is a similar trend in Germany. Back tomorrow.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:17
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
Readin the last few posts is better than a sleeping pill...Goodnight all. Too Tarnished!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:15
6pak Freedom & Rights @ Canada's gun control>(Freedom & Rights @ Canada's gun control):
1997 Canada, gun control,
* The Declaration Of Independence---USofA July 04 1776

It is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their security -- Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these States. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world

He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation

For taking away our charter, abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our governments

Check this out: RE, Gun Control Bill C-68, Canada, via, USofA actions.

Liberal M.P. Rex Crawford voted against Bill C-68 35 Liberal M.P's ducked the issue, 3 Liberal M.P.'s voted against Bill C-68.

Rex Crowford stated : read the fine print and discover that this Bill will leave Canadians defenceless against arbitrary search and seizure by the Government also Essentially abandons the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms

All such action against the Canadian people is being done for the financial interests of the most powerful, in the USofA, and the USofA has the * Declaration of Independence * !!

Canada, must be careful, in dealing with the USofA, it appears it is July 04 1776, issues are the same, only the players are different,

We Canadians, will need our Declaration of Independence from the USofA, and submit such to a candid world.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:04
WW @New England>(@New England):
Eldorado: I am not trying to save the system although if done properly it could be saved. Rather if and when it does blow up the blame rests squarely on the high flying purveyors of mkt leverage on WAll St/Bay St and Fleet st and their greedy corporate stk option buyout clients and compadres. The Wall St demanded stk option encouraged manic slash and burn for profit will come to an end and its leaders will be held up in the disrepute they so richly deserve. With our democratic system and rule of law a less greedy and money oriented society will develop. I believe within our context the blowup will be good for all, even the greedy,
and the country in the long run. The Govt and public service will experience rennaissance.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 23:01
Larry again>(again):
I'm sure you are convinced of your convictions, but some of your statements on history are incorrect. As you know, SS was started by Democrats and in general resisted by Republicans. ** The bankruptcy of the system is due to those ( Democrats ) making new promises every few years to increase the payments to recipients without a serious regard for paying the bill. This was as easy as Clinton making his promises today... no integrity or personal remorse. ( Most of these increases were resisted by Republicans because the new payments were fiscally irresponsible ) After all, someone else would pay up later, and it kept them in power for years buying votes. I watched Jim Wright do it for years.

The increase in FICA withholding in 1983 was a bipartison bill supported by Reagan to prevent the system from going bankrupt by 1997. It worked. It has postponed the due date. To blame the problem on Reagan and Dole is truly stupid. ( nothing personal here, but your view is incorrect and is totally ideologically based, no matter how much you are convinced )

You never have addressed my previous post where I pointed out that the IOUs are still govt obligations and must by honored. The fund has not been raided. Your persistence to maintain that view is .....

When you deposit money into your checking account, do you think the bank keeps it. Your deposit is long gone by the end of the day. The bank loans it out.

For others... In order to privatize the system and provide SS eligible accounts with their share would require the feds to borrow ( or print ) over $500 billion in a short period of time. This is financially impossible without extreme disruption of the current situation, including soaring interest rates. Who do you seriously think in Congress will support this? Certainly not Clinton. To promote privatization is extreme willful thinking and totally unworkable. From an economic viewpoint, it is impossible.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:54
TED @cbc>(@cbc):
ABN Gold up .45 and Silver up 3 cents...Detroit Red Army 4....Flyers 2...
three minutes to go...

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:53
Mike Sheller @theCharts>(@theCharts):
A look at the weekly T-Bond shows a test of a minor short-term downtrend line at hand at the 111 mark. Penetration would be bullish for a run to 113. At 113 a more significant downtrend line comes into play. If that can be breached within a few weeks to a month , we would be into a significant bond rally, a decline in rates, and major consternation for the Fed. This would of course be bullish for stocks ( one more time ) . If a failure at 111 occurs, then we're into another leg down for bonds. Next few days will bear watching. Many observers are awaiting renewed signs of a tight economy and inflationary pressures. This kind of action would be a major surprise to many. The breaching of 113 would be a breakout from a significant price pattern and buy at least another three or four months for stocks. Bond traders might entertain initial longs IF price passes 111, with added positions at the breaking of 113.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:51
Eldorado @the system>(@the system):
Mike -- When common sense within the system exists no more and all the paid ears there don't hear anymore, it's time to buy gold, food, bullets and beer! Lots of each! The asses will eventually be seen for what they are but only after the destruction has been done. In the mean time, there is a lot of 'CYA' to do.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:43
panda @zzzzzzzz....................>(@zzzzzzzz....................):
Savage -- careful with those four letter words ( r*ch ) you might trigger the broken record player. :~ ) )

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:42
Roebear @Hershey>(@Hershey):
D.A. Thanks you have given me a lot to ponder. I've got a 5AM so I'm off to golden dreams. Thanks all, much good dialogue here tonight!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:40
Savage note>(note):
NOTE: December '98 gold call optins ARE available now; and I think the June '98 calls are a bargain at current prices. Of course the delta will change, but, as price goes up a lot so will the calls, even with the time decay factored in. CHEROKEE said a brilliant thing a while back ( yes, he did ) He advocated buying a call or two each month even if that's all you could do ( right CHEROKEE? ) IT COULD MAKE YOU R--H!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:39
WW @New England>(@New England):
EWP:I am apparently paying for other peoples parents and grand parents retirement now so why shouldnt their kids pay for me.

I agree with privatization but that has no political support. So lets stop raiding the trust funds and accumulate that money. Further the SS and Medi raid has benefited certain sectors/ let them make payback so that your children and mine dont bear the burden. Where is this wrong and how does it hurt the children. In fact it will help the children as the future geezers will have more money to be independent because they get back some of the money they paid into the systems.

You have to make the choice it is either the banks/corps/Investment banks who benefited and continue to benefit from the SS and Medi Trust fund raid ( partially by artificially low interest rates and bouyant financials ) or future retirees and the children. EWP make the choice! I know which
one will win and which one is just.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:38
WW @New England>(@New England):
EWP:I am apparently paying for other peoples parents and grand parents retirement now so why shouldnt their kids pay for me.

I agree with privatization but that has no political support. So lets stop raiding the trust funds and accumulate that money. Further the SS and Medi raid has benefited certain sectors/ let them make payback so that your children and mine dont bear the burden. Where is this wrong and how does it hurt the children. In fact it will help the children as the future geezers will have more money to be independent because they get back some of the money they paid into the systems.

You have to make the choice it is either the banks/corps/Investment banks who benefited and continue to benefit from the SS and Medi Trust fund raid ( partially by artificially low interest rates and bouyant financials ) or future retirees and the children. EWP make the choice! I know which
one will win and which one is just.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:33
Mike @>(@):
The fact of the contemporary death of common sense is something both liberals and conservatives can agree on.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:24
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
WW -- You have more chance of saving the 'Titanic' than you do Social Security, Medicare, or this debt based economy! Have Fun!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:18
Savage 98?>(98?):
Notice the German compromise is to defer the reevaluation to '98. SOOOO... the big objection is not to DOING it; it's to doing it NOW!!!! Do you think they ( BUBA ) might have an idea where the price of gold might be in 1998? Sounds ultra-bullish to me ,in ( or before ) 1998!!!!!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:18
ted butler lease rates>(lease rates):
JIN's post of 21:10 is the url for a yahoo biz story saying Pa lease rates are at 75% per annum for one month, with Plat at 40%. Such an absurd rate of interest ( particularly in our low interest environment ) should scream out that something is wrong. The only other loans that command such rates are illegal as far as I know. What these rates say to me is that there is something inherently wrong with metal loans as debt instruments. If you think it thru you would be hard pressed to economically justify the rationale of such a business. I know there are a lot of big names associated with the metal loan business and it looks real respectable, but at what point does it start looking real fishy - 75%? 100%? 1000%? And the real point is that while they may become suspect only when the rates start looking crazy, they are just as rotten when rates are low, as is presently the case in gold and silver. And just to be clear - my only purpose in constantly harping on the metal loan business is to hopefully let those involved in it know that the game is ending, which I feel will be bad for them and good for most of the people here. G'nite.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:17
eric llevar>(llevar):

it will be quite interesting to see how much asia needs the west after 15-20 years pass.

since you seem convinced that attorneys and more laws are the keys to saving the world, perhaps you would like to counter the conclusions made in the book the death of common sense by philip howard. even gore ( al, that is ) came to agree with its conclusions. here are some excerpts from the jacket:

with the best of intentions, government hands out new legal rights like land grants, usually to victims of history or circumstance, but fails to notice that it then loses its ability to balance everyone’s welfare. the land of freedom has become a legal maze of obligation, ritual, and obeisance…

the chapter entitled the buck never stops is particularly entertaining.

i think mr. disney had it right years ago. the time has come to pursue appropriate arrangements.

hasta nunca.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:17
WW: Yes or no questions for you.

Does the average ( earner ) retiree get back more than they contributed to Soc. Sec.?

Does the average retiree pay for the Medicare benefits in full?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:16

I too have been working away. The number one propellant for EMU in Germany is Kohl. The man wants to do some grand political thing, because he is a politician. If you go to a surgeon and you have a sore throat he wants to take out your tonsils. Politicians define themselves by the imprint they can leave upon history. Some don't really care what the imprint is as long as it is something. Most delude themselves into believing that their cause is just, regardless of the outcome. They are a scary lot.

Off to sleep. Many meetings tomorrow. Good night all.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:14
WW: You asked me to demand what I paid for? How? By placing a tax burden on my children and grandchildren. I don't agree with that. The system is be actuarial sound ( i.e. CPI adjustments and the retirement age to get social security benefits raised ) . My children and grandchildren should not pay for anybody's retirement but their. Their money should be put in a fully privatized plan that they own and control. As far as the use of trust funds to balance the budget ... the budget should be balanced now by changes to medicare ( current recipient get 5 bucks of benefits for every dollar paid for Medi Part B, etc. ) , cut other waste ( Dept of Education, Corporate Welfare, Military spending on hardware that the Pentagon doesn't want ... that is corporate welfare also ) . A serious balance budget effort requires changes to Entitlements ( half of the budget ) and defense ( I guess about 15% ) . Both ... not just defense.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 22:09
WW @New England>(@New England):
Bernie: Thank you for your like mindedness. A broad based tax of 5 cents would cover even the cheaters and the underground economy. Targeting Corporate welfare is a great goal which will take alot of political courage on Congress. Of course if the guilty classes for the SS deficit could be specifically targeted this would be ideal.

Speed: I agree re privatiztion of SS if it could be done now. I no of know support for this in either party so the suggestion is impractical. My solution is looking at existing political realities and to provide the benefits to future retirees as they have/will earn them and that those who have benefited from papering over the deficit with SS and Medi Trust funds should repatriate the wealth that was used for their benefit. This is known as payin yer debts in colloquil terms.

When SS and Medi run out they will try to say it is because people are living longer. The reply will be that is why there was a surplus for 23 years to provide for the greater no. of workers/ and SS TAX Hikes to account for their greater longevity. Now Pardner lets figure out who really benefited from the heist and go git what is rightfully ours.

I cant wait to hear the pols on reducing SS it will be fun to see them squirm. France yesterday is preview US re SS. The party that hurts SS or Medi risks anihilation like the once dominant Conservative Party in Canada which is now a nothing party. I have hope for the future because of the examples of political courage we are starting to see worldwide.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 21:50
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
George S. Cole -- You've been talking a lot about left and right econometrics lately and maybe I'm too far right of it all, but all I've seen over the past years is a burgeoning debt. May I ask 'what do you mean by what do you mean'? To me, it's all been leftist with maybe a very slight twist to slightly tighter monetary policy. But there has been no let up in the debt burden, only more of same. Should I assume that what you mean is that a REAL blowoff in inflation shall be at hand? I think I only require a 'clarification of terms' as you use them, as they teach in logic classes. Thanks.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 21:44
Auric @Make My Day>(@Make My Day):
It seems that gold just can't win no matter what.
I remember a rather obnoxious poster who kept saying
3-2-5 ( was it Long Gone? ) . I say gold don't get
there. I will back that up with a reasonable wager.
An ounce of gold to a favorite charity says we
don't get there by December 31, 97. Any sleepwalking

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 21:31
Speed @houston>(@houston):
WW & Panda et al: Whatever we believe about the theory, the fact is that no government programs are going to experience more than cosmetic changes until after the elections in 1998 and then only if the congress swings back to democratic control in both houses with large enough majorities to effect serious change and block fillibusters etc. That means that it will be late in 1999 and probably much later before the issues are addressed with the possibility of significant change. That is serious analysis. Now, rather than continue to argue over what ought to be, how about some analysis of what will be and how will it affect gold? the dollar? Oil? etc.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 21:24
BYRON @ Rx For Agreement>(@ Rx For Agreement):
What I believe it needed to bring enlightenment to all is a $10-$20 rise in the price of gold.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 21:19
panda @Hmmm>(@Hmmm):
NJ -- Just took a look, EBN appears to be down ( server that is ) . Perhaps there is hope yet? :~ ) )

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 21:15
WW @New England>(@New England):
Panda: It is a fiction which was not meant to be a fiction. As FDR established the system it would work today. Everyone knows Demographics change so the trust fund was set up to save for times when there were more workers working than being paid off the system. The maintenance of the surpluses and the earnings thereon would pay those workers when the situation reverses. In 1983 they started under Dole and Reagan to appropriate the surpluses to cover up the deficit a policy which with Republican support and Congressional Democratic opposition continues to this day. These surpluses will continue in SS untill 2010 but the Republicans have refused to consider arresting even the prospective borrowing/I think Clinton goes along.

Lets help the problem now and as Daschle and Gephardt have proposed stop using the present and future SS surplus to fund general revenues/ That is not its purpose. This will take a great burden off our children as will a very broad based tax to refund the borrowing which depleted the people's trust fund.

In sum, If people are living too long in 2010/ that wont be the real problem but rather that they didnt work long enough to continue to pay into SS and provide the govt the funds to pander to special interests. Hopefully the perpetrators and their friends will feel the rath for the theft at the ballot box. Again the French, British ( Blair apologized to the Irish for the potato famine today ) and Canadian elections are Heartening as things are moving in the right direction/I am actually beginning to feel a little optimism about things political and their trends.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 21:13
Speed does it matter?>(does it matter?):
WW: I have read today's posts and I think I agree with you on two points. 1. China should not be given MFN without serious changes in human rights policies. 2. SS should be moved off-budget, either privatized, ( I would prefer abolished with the bonds distributed ) , or abolished slowly with payouts declining as taxes are cut not raised. If any large govt. program is suddenly moved off-budget or abolished, the shock will cause the financial collapse we all talk about. We must all be careful what we wish for. If you well-meaning folks truly desire to provide for the less fortunate and throw out a net to catch the inept and unlucky, you are welcome to do so with your own money. If you don't want society to be burdened with the freeloaders and spendthrifts, then don't support them and don't make the rest of us support them to make you feel better. I don't believe you are a socialist, else you wouldn't mangle the quotes so badly : ) Please look up the quote by Lenin. It's much closer to The capitalists will sell us the rope we use to hang them. Good intentions aren't enough. As Winston Churchill said: If a man isn't a liberal by the time he is twenty, then he has no heart and if he isn't a conservative by the time he is forty, then he has no head.

Speed's Axiom: The temperature and volume of the political rhetoric here is inversely proportional to the direction of change in the XAU.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 21:10
just finish this story,useful guide,....
good nite all.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 21:10
NJ waiting>(waiting):
Anyone seen this

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 21:00
Where is gold going? It is pretty da**ed pathetic when the worry of the day is inflation, and the classic inflation hedge is disintegrating before our very eyes! Everyone talks about the economic numbers weakening a tenth of a percent here and there, and we're supposed to think that a depression is coming! GIVE ME A BREAK! The numbers are good, 5.8% GDP?! This is recessionary?

Ok, I feel better now having vented my spleen here. Has anybody noticed that Seagate, Intel, Cabletron, IBM, and HP have reported lower than expected earnings? The blame being placed at the sluggish European door step? Perhaps, just perhaps, the incipient signs of business turmoil due to currency manipulations?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:58
Bernie @Ca>(@Ca): yours of 19:11....good post, found your analysis of German revaluation very interesting. We are seeing cracks in the CB armor. I too want to fix SS, but why a 5 cent tax? Why not stop the cheating in our current system. There are 100's of billions in tax revenue lost to the cash and barter underground economy and general corporate tax evasion and corporate welfare. Your broad based 5 cent tax will make the same people who have not been cheating pay again.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:56
Senator Blutarsky @Senate Farewell Address>(@Senate Farewell Address):

Tonight I come before you to announce my retirement
from the Senate. I have done all I can as a senator.
It is time to move on. I leave you at the time of
the best buying opportunity in gold since I was
elected to office. Good night, and good fortune.
......By the way, NOTHING is over until WE say it

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:56
WW @New England>(@New England):
Your BR analogy is incorrect as probably 200 million Americans benefit and expect to benefit from the benefits they paid for. The primary beneficiaries are large financials and the wealthier among us who benefit from the financial asset inflation as a result of using SS surpluses to cover up the deficit and reduce borrowing costs. Because of their position these entities/individuals under the US BANKRUPTCY CODE do not qualify for protection. However, those who have credit card and other debts from whom you propose to rob SS and Medicare probably will qualify. Then if some DR. doesnt treat them or their children at a hospital when they are sick then our system at least allows us to sue the but off the DR and the hospital. Trial Lawyers = best guarantee of health care for those in need from those in greed.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:55
Roebear @Hershey>(@Hershey):
D.A. Sorry I could not keep up with this real time, work work work. If we have all these good reasons for Germany not to go EMU then why are they trying so hard? I tend to agree with you but are we missing something from their perspective?
WW Thanks for your input on Euro, your views have merit, but did you have to bring up SS again? I mean its OK but can we rest it for awhile, oops, delivery ...gotttaa goo!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:47
WW -- Isn't the accounting for the various taxes a fiction? In other words, the Federal taxes, FICA, Medicare, etc. 'deductions', are all monies flowing in to one pot. The SS money is 'invested' in T-Bills, ( :~{, which is another way of saying, We spent tomorrows money today! There is no 'raiding' of the 'Trust' funds because there aren't any! It is all an accounting fiction.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:45
Ww @New England>(@New England):
In a sense your anaolgy is correct. However, SS and Medi are indirectly paid for by all working Americans. Almost all families do and will benefit. Further, you surely do not condone the persisting raids. The financial institutions and Govt pork / foreign aid have benefited greatly from the raids/ the people just will need their money back from those who benefited. The French and Canadian Elections are heartening because when and if they ( US ) ever try to seriously renege on their debt to the working people who have paid into the system AND they feel the effect BYE BYE to that party and ideology. Democratic citizens ala France are smarter than you think. It is not about something for nothing/ it is about not letting the govt work solely for the interests of Capital.

If the US Govt reneges on its promises then the majority will elect a govt which will enforce the promises. Lets stop the Raids on the Trust funds now! Speed agree or disagree?On stopping the raids that is.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:40
Just as Dia met , Diamond Feilds, Aber, And BRE-X educated the world on what type of price appreciation is possible in mining stocks, Palladium is educating the world on what kind of price action that can occurr in the metals mrkts.

The gold shorts must be nervous about the PGM, if not they are stupid

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:32
WW @New England>(@New England):

Eric: The growth rates are high because of the low base. If the west didnt buy from these people watch what happens to those growth rates.
B/C US growth is debt expansioned based we will get to see this real soon.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:29
Speed what's sauce for the goose...>(what's sauce for the goose...):
WW: Isn't it true that you represent people in court who are reneging on legal debts? If it's ok for 1,000,000 people to seek protection from their creditors, why is it terrible for 250,000,000 to do the same thing, via their elected officials?

EWP: WW and I have over 70+ email round trips over two months time frame and no perceptible changes in either views. Does this help?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:24
WW @New England>(@New England):
EWP: I Think you are hard of reading/read my last post and this and stop talking about the children's tax bill/ I have addressed the solutions. I want to save the system by having the beneficiaries pay back the debt and stop the current raids on SS and Medi to paper over the deficit. Apparently you think the stealing from the current and future trust surpluses should continue/please answer yes or no on this one!

I understand why rightists hate earned entitlements/ it makes their time in power very short ala the very smart French People. Demand what you have paid for!!!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:24
eric romanticism>(romanticism):
ww - my partner transacts multimillion-dollar commodity agreements throughout asia, particularly for large-scale infrastructure development projects. no romanticism here, and no bubble - just acknowledgement that western economies are locking themselves into prolonged miniature growth rates.

hasta luego.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:21
WW: The words to follow are intended to ellicit understanding only. They should not be construed as a personal attack of any kind.

The reason I am taking this approach is because I frequently read and perceive your political comments as an invitation to combat. As well, it is often difficult to understand your position. As it is in the first paragraph of the post regarding China. My initial reaction was that you supported the present form of government. Perhaps my perception is colored by precedent posts or simple bias but for some reason we are not communicating. I have no quarrel with your right to advocate higher taxes or anything else, for that matter, but your advocacy often comes across the screen in the form of ad hominem attacks. ..... Just musing...

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:18
Strad Master>(
WW: While I don't agree with anything you write about govermnent or your ideas regarding SS, Medicare, taxation, etc. you are obviously a very thoughtful and compassionate individual. For you to endure what you sometimes put up with here on Kitco ( even from me ) is a sign of a very comitted and steadfast person. Kudos for that! I recently read The Sovereign Individual by James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in markets and especially gold. If you have a chance, please pick up a copy. It is quite fascinateing although not always an easy read. I'd be very interested in your contrary opinion of it. Gotta go now. I'll be back later.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:12
GVC @Elliott Wave Theorist notes>(@Elliott Wave Theorist notes):
A couple of excerpts from the latest issue of The Elliott Wave Theorist:

1. ) The XAU index should thrust up in wave V to a new all-time high...

2. ) In 1989 , the year the Nikkei topped out, Elliott Wave Theorist reported that in Tokyo, some prosperous Japanese were sprinkling gold flakes on their cereal. Today in the U.S., in the equivalent 15th year of a stock mania, the Cellar in the Sky restaurant at the top of the World Trade Center has begun offering a dessert featuring edible gold.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:11
Did a 2 year old kid make the promise to pay for someone's entitlements? They are the ones who will be paying for the credit card bill. And they are the ones who will TRY to enter the workforce in a society that his high tax rates to fund entitlements ( your retirement ... in which you'll probably get more than you contributed plus interest and inflation due to people living longer ) .

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 20:00
6pak Canadian @ is it possible ?>(Canadian @ is it possible ?):
George S. Cole June 03 @ 17:47 ::: John D. Rockefeller who said during the depression, [ I would gladly give away half my fortune if I could be sure of keeping the other half ]

Canada is in a depression, and Canada has given away half of it's wealth, in the hope of keeping the other half. The NAFTA, is in fact been forced on Canada, by the International Bankers. Last night,in Canada, these Bankers have effectively divided Canada into four ( 4 ) regions, ( Eastern Canada, Quebec, Central Canada, and Western Canada. )

Consider, the amazing success of the Reform Party. Canada could now be merged politically with the USofA, via, the Reform Party. ( Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition Party )

During a research of the net,regarding Canada's new Trade Agreement with the USofA ( M.A.I. ) . I came across a web site, that has serious allegations, in reference to the Free Trade Agreement, ( NAFTA. )

The USofA agenda for Canada the * Integration * of Canada and the USofA.

The *secret* aspect of the free trade agreement *suggests* that 40% of Canada's resources must be given to the USofA, not 10%, as public stated.

Gold, is a resource, and the USofA is Bankrupt, as stated at this site. It stands to reason, that the financial salvation of the USofA, could in fact be accomplished, by obtaining the natural resources of Canada. ( 40% )

USofA has Barrick Gold as a major player, and Bush, and Mulroney, as advisers, sooooo, ABX should be in your individual portfolio.

40 % of Canada's Gold, could keep the price of Gold down, CB's are a factor, but what if Canada's Gold is being used to fix the Gold price.

Is this Participant reading this correct, if, there is in fact, a degree of truth, in the material posted at the web site mentioned above.

We at this site, have been subjected to many conspiracy, or plot theory,
but, are always in reference to the happening in the USofA. This is a first for Canada. Well considering the Canadian Federal Election results, the web site very much suggests,the results were predicted, and we as Canadians should congratulate the success of these International Bankers, they in fact, have done an outstanding job.

WOW, we are *dumb* Canadians, eh! GOLD, being manipulated, has nothing on a Democratic Country, and it's people being manipulated.
Kindness, and Consideration, is in fact, a weakness.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:57
WW @New England>(@New England):
If what you proposed was possible I would support you 1000%. In fact, I would like to see SS privatized. The bonds you speak of are IOUS which the govt has issued because the SURPLUS PAST AND CURRENTwas/is borrowed by the govt to fund current operations or otherwise the budget deficit would be much larger and thus result in a weaker dollar/higher rates and stagnant financial markets. Now the reason there is an SS surplus is because of demographics ie more workers ie baby boomers working. Quite naturally if the surplus were left alone the system would have worked ( stop borrowing now and it will be better ) as the earnings on the surplus would have more than paid baby boomer benefits w/o taxing our children. The financial institutions and to a lesser extent all society has benefited by taking the surplus which would have secured baby boomer retirement without a tax increase on our children. The only moral thing to do is tax those who benefited from the raid on the trust funds to properly compensate future retirees for the money taken from their SS and Medi trust fund which benefited financial institutions through covering up the deficit and borrowing needs and thereby creating artificially low interest rates. This is justice/ you borrow money/you pay it back. Financials and to a lesser degree all of society benefits from trust fund raids/ workers have paid in the beneficiaries pay back what was appropriated for their benefit in the form of a broad based or otherwise appropriate tax. To not believe in this is to believe it is moral for one to renege on a legal debt!!!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:54
JimX67 @italic fonts>(@italic fonts):
Bart + All : that is very stunning indeed, the fonts just returned
to their normal and usual look...
What happened ?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:54
Eric: Yes, I visited China in the summer of 1993. It only served to increase my fascination with all of Asia and whet my appetite for more. It is counted among the most interesting experiences of my life. The Chinese are in a state of transition and there is no way of knowing where change and the future will take them. It is safe to say though, that their view of 'socialism' has no room for the weepy, romantic illusions held by similar proponents in the west.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:51
JimX67 @italic fonts>(@italic fonts):
Bart: I absolutely and definitely don't like the new italic fonts.. ; ( ( (

All: what do you think about that ?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:36

Your 'fix' to Social Security is socialist in its effort to redistribute wealth through taxation. If you are uncomfortable with the sobriquet perhaps your thinking ought to change. I fail to understand how it is moral to increase taxes to make payments for something that was not designed to be what it has become because of a change in demographics. To me the 'moral' thing would be to give everyone who has contributed to the system their proper share of all the government bonds that are now owned by the trust funds and let them do what they wanted with them. In addition I would scrap the entire Social Security taxation scheme and implement a welfare program for aged people who are in need. I am sympathetic to your viewpoint that one measure of society is how well it treats those in need. However, your policy for wealth equalization through increased taxation is socialist, and demonstrably a failure in every society on earth in which it has been tried.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:35
WW @New England>(@New England):
ERIC: Sorry to burst your bubble but I am in contact with some people who might be considered high ranking Chinese involved in international organizations. They are commited marxists to the core who are using Capitalism and political slave labor to develop yheir power for the struggle against decadent freedom. Asia is very backwards otherwise the truly smart Asians wouldnt be flocking here. Hats off to your well intentioned romanticism.

Fact: NO MFN FOR RUSSIA/RUSSIA fell and things improved for the Wesr vis a vis Russia. They got MFN after PoLITICAL REFORMS ie Freedom began to be established.

MFN for China because of the all to typical demand for short term profit will yield the exact opposite result vis a vis the Chinese Marxists in comparison to what happened with Russia. Lenin and Mao said give the Capitalist a rope and he will hang himself for a profit. This is why the west needs to act on the basis of principal versus the murderous Marxist regime in Beijing.
The same progressive reports about China sound like the hopeful refrain from the 30s about the economic progress in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. WAKE UP!!!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:33
Auric Public Schools>(Public Schools):

D.A.@ 19:16--Good point. In other words, the EMU
might be considered a dumbing down of the European
currencies. Seems to be a popular thing these days.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:27
WW: D.A. posted the responsible fixes to S.S. ( also applies to Medicare ) . I posted them a few weeks ago to you. What you support is continuing the ponzi schemes. Maybe you should get involved in politics with your rhetoric. Although, I'm hopeful that things will change ( over the next 3-5 years ) and flatten the tax, tax, tax ideas you promote to grow the public sector at the expense of the private sector ( of raising taxes, find a new revenue grab here and there ) .

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:27
Pablo Escobar @medellincartel>(@medellincartel):
Earl: Six tons of the white stuff, far out dude! Can ya send me some of it?...Worth alot more than Gold and is much more fun!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:20
Earl: yes, I made that up! Since I was cheering for the Tories, I had to think up an appropriate alias. : )

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:16

I don't believe that the issue with regard to the Buba is the actual effect that either gold sales or revaluation would have to the money supply or even the consequences for the DM. It appears that there are two things at play, one the independence of the Buba and two their apparent desire not to give it up. In the first instance, the money from gold revaluation has been handed over to the government accounts on a yearly basis. Wiegal wanted to take some of next years money and move it into this year for EMU purposes. If the Buba allowed this to move to go unchallenged it would have severly weaken their image as being independant. Since the whole idea of fiat currency is based upon 'trust' a central bank can not afford to lose credibility as that will ultimately cost them dearly in the financial markets.

The idea that Europe needs a single currency badly in order to catch up to NAFTA and the Asian trading blocks seems flawed. After all, here in North America the three currencies that we have do not seem to be an impediment to trade. One could easily make the case that in mismatched economies it is desireable to have different currencies. For example, the Mexican Peso devaluation of a few years back resulted in an immediate change in the trade balance and forced a measure of fiscal sanity upon Mexico. I think what the Germans fear, and IMHO rightly so, is that once they give up control of their currency they may be faced with a European Central Bank that is willing to supply money at the rate that pleases the neediest economy, because this will be the political path of least resistance. Given that the German collective nightmare is hyperinflation, this is not a path they wish to tred upon. The problems of Europe from a competitive standpoint appear to be high cost employment, and a massive unyielding bureaucracy. These need to be addressed through structural reform, not a devalued currency.

As for the Asians buying up all the gold and forming a reserve currency of their own, who knows. One thing to realize is that Japan has a poorer balance sheet than the US even though their debt has smaller coupons attached. I don't really believe that the world will ever revert to a gold standard or anything like it. I think that what is evolving is that the financial markets through their free market rate setting will keep the fiscal houses in order.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:11
WW @New England>(@New England):
Revaluation of gold by Germans is extremely bullish for gold and this is why Bubba opposes it. Pricing gold at current value by the German govt creates windfall for govt but could be perceived as placing a floor under gold at $340 which I do not think Wall St/Bay St/Fleet St. and the CBs want. They desire the flexibility to contain gold and this requires the perception of risk and downside in gold below $340. Why would this create a floor? Ask yourself the Ques. WOULD THE GERMAN GOVT RECOGNIZE A LOSS AND REDUCE THEIR BUDGET RELIEF IF GOLD FELL BELOW 340. If pigs fly. ERGO a floor. Worse yet other govts might get the same idea and buy gold. They could use higher prices to print more money. Buba is worried about this and hey if Gold went to 440 the German Govt could get another windfall/and they ( Govt ) surely will not want it to fall! ( New Gold std by default which govs support because it gives them easy money/thus new CB_Govt conflict/guess who wins ) . Remember politicians run for reelection CBs dont. The combination of the recent elections and especially German Gold re valuation is laying the basis for the bull. Not to mention the fiscal chaos from the impending Econ slump. Socialist call in France for CB govt control very telling. Not dissimilar to or own boys whining when Greenspan tightened a bit and the Dow swooned a whole 9%. Ask yourself what the boys on Capitol Hill would be doing if the Dow swooned 40%. I ponder that the response to the Japanese Attack on Pearl Harbor would look lame in comparison.

I want to fix SS that is the only moral thing to do. A broad based 5cent tax and discontinuing the trust Fund raids as Democrats have proposed and Republicans have opposed would do the trick. To call me a Socialist for such a proposal is emotional demogaguery!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:10
eric narrowed scope>(narrowed scope):
ww, george s. cole, & earl:

have any of you spent any time whatsoever in china within the last 5 years? if you had, you might consider rephrasing your socialism-trend renewal statements such that they reflect trends in the western world. the trends you see in the west will simply hasten the west’s economic decline, while asia is simply shifting into second gear economically.

earl, in all likelihood, the natural agency that will intervene after the west embarks upon renewed socialist paths will be persistent 10% and higher rates of unemployment. the french can teach us all about it.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 19:01
Auric @2 on 1>(@2 on 1):

Earl @18:41--LOL!! Better be careful. You may have
Paul AND EWP after you!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 18:56
Mulrooney @>(@):

Try This, Byron: Merci beaucoup! Thanks.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 18:54
TED @mikesheller>(@mikesheller):
Mike Sheller: Was wondering where you were....Welcome back!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 18:41
EWP: Ellington Wales Paddington? Ya made that up; dint you? .. ( :- ) ) Imagine going through boot camp with a name like that. Almost as bad as a boy named Sue. LOL

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 18:38
Try This @>(@):

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 18:35
Byron: no sir, it doesn't. I changed my handle from AG ( my initials ) because people may have thought I was funning with that handle ( since that is also Mr. Greenspan's initials ) . Why EWP? I think I was thinking of a British name when somebody was talking about the British Elections .. Ellington Wales Paddington ( as in Paddington Bear ) .

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 18:26
Byron @ Jumping To Concussions:>(@ Jumping To Concussions:):
EWP: pardon a potentially stupid question, but does EWP stand to Elliott Wave Principle : )

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 18:23
Mulrooney @>(@):

Byron: is there addition to that? It gets me to
kitco main page but cant seem to get here. Thanks.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 18:18
Byron @ First You Have To Know Where You Are:>(@ First You Have To Know Where You Are:):
Mulrooney: Try http://

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 18:11
bw Bank checking and saving accounts and CD's:>(Bank checking and saving accounts and CD's:):
When you deposit currency or such into a bank checking or saving account or purchase a bank CD, you are making a loan to the bank. The courts have consistently ruled thus. What are the banks putting up as collateral for this loan? Not a single thing.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 18:06
Roebear @kissmobile>(@kissmobile):
D.A. While I generally agree with your explanation, I still feel there is something missing. I will risk a few ignorant questions to stimulate the discussion and expand my learning. Would the accounting shenanigans of transferring the profits from revaluation soften the DM more than a small ( 23 billion figure heard somewhere ) sale of gold? If Germany is going to EMU ( remember the economic costs of no EMU are great or perceived to be by EU ) can it take a risk on a softer DM for a stronger EMU? The EMU is itself an shortcut to an economic advantage over USA/NAFTA and Japan/little tigers trade blocks is it not? In the world economic competition Europe is playing catch up and needs the EMU desperately. When you give up currency control you give up fiscal control and therefore a lot of your sovereignty; they must be serious to even consider it. Are we too blindsided by our association with the ultimate hard currency to see what they are seeing/trying/doing? Or is the Big Trader scenario possible; are Asian buyers secretly accumulating gold to later attack soft EMU and debt ridden US dollar with some reserve currency of their own? Sorry for so many questions : ) )

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 18:05
Mulrooney @>(@):

What is http:// for this site Thanks. ( got heree via
search )

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:59
Mike Sheller The Astrological Investor>(The Astrological Investor):
Just came back from 5 days inFlorida. Do you know what I missed most? Kitco...that's what. Watched the XAU on CNBC in my lovely surfside hotel room overlooking the magnificent sea with sand in my toes...and what am I thinking How are the guys and gals at Kitco handling this? Just scrolled thru today and you know what? I have to say this is ONE enjoyable site. Just had to let you 'all know.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:55
Auric Addendum>(Addendum):

Agree no EMU for Germans, but much looser money for
German economy, perhaps against the better judgement
of Buba.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:53
George: In my view, things are different now than the 30s and 70s. If BC was impeached this summer, I don't believe you would see gold reach $500 an ounce. Maybe I wrong. I can't read the stars. I believe the fundamentals are different now.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:49

It is looking like the decline late last week was a function of two things, first notice in the June Comex contract and the then upcoming visit to Japan by Almaz. Many of the funds that are purely paper players probably decided to cash out and not roll for fear that the weekend meetings would bring a big load of Pa to market. Since this has apparently not materialized for whatever reason, the long story still appears to be intact. Should the price continue to rise throughout the Russian visit this would be very bullish and probably bring the squeeze to its terminal phase, as Japanese shorts are forced to cover and where insane volatility would be the order of the day. If Tiger fund is to win the game, their exit strategy will probably involve sales directly to commercial users. Since it is probably apparent to the commercial users what is going on, they may attempt to put up a fight. However, with one month lease rates over 50% it would appear that all the metal is in very strong hands. Since the current supply / demand deficit ( not counting sales from stockpiles ) is around 10,000 oz's per work day, the pressure builds every day. When it finally breaks it will be big on the downside, but I'm still hoping and wishing the chart ends up looking like coffee and that we make as good a decision. Time, and probably not too much of it, will tell.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:48
Auric @Yield to Temptatation>(@Yield to Temptatation):

D.A. Re 17:14--It seems to me that Germany is
running into the same problem as France. Many of
the same conditions such as uncompetitive
industries, demands for social spending and high
unemployment exist there as well. This runs
contrary to the Buba's commitment to a rock solid
D Mark. My guess is that if things continue to get
worse, the politics of Germany will go the way of
the French. If that happens, the German central
bank may have to yield.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:47
George S. Cole gold and hard times>(gold and hard times):
EWP: Sorry, but the really big moves in gold and gold stocks only occur in times of severe economic and political stress and tension, when capital is SCARED. Gold stocks scored their best gains by far during the 1929-33 depression and the 1970s inflation when a sitting president was forced to resign.

I believe it was John D. Rockefeller who said during the depression, I would gladly give away half my fortune if I could be sure of keeping the other half. When such statements are again heard in the land, gold probably will selling for at least $2000 an ounce.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:41
Bob @...hey Peppeno whata you talka bout ?>(@...hey Peppeno whata you talka bout ?):
I tella you inna Italiano and jewdona capisha ? Whata kinda Italiano you isa anyways !? Maybe you donna speaka da lingua Dante but a Brooklena acchenta of da englisha ?! Si or Non !?

ciao meza matza !;- )

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:35
George S. Cole insider buying>(insider buying):
Steve Kaplan reports heavy insider buying in Echo Bay. Is anyone here aware of significant insider buying in other gold stocks?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:33
telecaster @crawford>(@crawford):
Byron- Based on Crawfords' track record calling currencies, bullion, and the S&P last year, I'm having a hard time feeling encouraged.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:30
D.A. - You mentioned the responsible solutions to fix S.S. ( also applies to Medicare ) . My ranting and raving on the subject is directed to WW love on continuing the ponzi scheme by raising tax rates ( sure he mentioned means testing ... that is only a small drop in the bucket ) . The proper actuarial changes have to do with CPI adjustments and age eligibility. Things WW whined about last week when I mentioned them. Maybe he has changed his tune on those two topics since last week. Gold may do better in a wealthier private sector over the long haul. Supply and Demand reasons for metals increases. It may also be a political instrument ... however, I wouldn't put my money on that. Domestic Oil and gas exploration stocks may be better political stocks.
Whether people like it or not, the fundamentals for metals are different than decades ago ( i.e. as a monetary instrument ) . We now operate in a paper and paper deficit mode ( which I may not like myself ) . I don't see politicians changing that anytime soon. I am interest in the mining industry from the demand, supply angle ... and the cost to extract the metals.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:26
D.A.: Wise counsel. In recent weeks I actually begun to adopt it. Though habits of a lifetime are difficult to change.

BTW: I meant to comment a earlier that the PA chart looks pretty good. The weakness that was, seems to have dissolved as the price came back to the 20 day ma. In short, it seems that the dip last week, was all a matter of going too far too fast. As Ray would say: Tally HO!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:14

The Buba does not want to sell any gold even in the event of a revaluation. All that would occur is that the 'profits' from revaluation would be transfered to the government's account. This would amount to printing DM's. If the Buba want's to sterilize the transaction, they would have to do so through open market operations to reduce money supply by the same amount. The article that you have quoted is yet another indication of the Buba's true feelings towards EMU. Now that the French have cast their ballots, the Germans realize that it will either be an inclusive, soft EMU or no EMU. The Buba clearly indicates by their rhetoric that no EMU is their choice. This is going to come down to a power struggle between the Buba and Kohl. Given that the majority of German citizens are opposed to giving up their DM, the Buba should be holding the cards.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:02

The world ain't such a bad place. The fiscal problems that we currently have can be solved fairly easily. A few adjustments to the CPI, a little means testing, moving the retirement age out a few years to reflect the reality of increased life span and voila, Social Security is saved. As for the social morass that some feel is upon us, take heart. Things are actually changing for the better. In my ex-hometown of NYC the murder rate has dropped by more than 50% over the last few years. Violent crime in general is way down across the country. Moral of the story, uncork ( or if you must, unscrew ) a fine bottle of red, and enjoy the day. You only get so many, make them all count.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:00
Byron @ One More Week>(@ One More Week):
GVC: Well in a week its all going to be mute. Arch Crawford is bullish on gold ( Big change coming on 6/10 ) . He says so, so it must be true. The XAU has one week to fill that gap or else its going to have to wait a couple of years.... Meanwhile, I wait for next Tuesday ( 6/10 ) ... Maybe I can just go for a long hike until then.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 17:00
George Cole: As usual you are able to separate your investment posture from core personal philosophy and see only the investment possibilities. Many including me, find WW's political ideas antithetical to our own and ..... you know how it is ....... a bit too much cheap red wine, the blood is running hot, our roommate is not as amiable as she was yesterday and someone is gonna pay! ...... ( :- ) )

Note: that only explains, it doesn't excuse.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 16:57
To George: I don't wish for things to happen which I consider bad for my country ( move to the economic left ) in order for me to score some profits in the metals. Anyway, it may not be good for metals. The continued growth of the public sector will drain money from the private sector. In that scenario, gold may be considered a worthless commodity ( exaggerating a bit ... but could lose substantial value ) . With a declining standard of livings, things like food ( and commodities likes oil and natural gas ) will be much more important than gold.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 16:52
Byron @ Seating At The Feet Of The Gurus>(@ Seating At The Feet Of The Gurus):
Well all the gurus are saying early next week is the change ( June 9 -10 ) . ( Favors and Arch ) Well what am I supposed to do meanwhile while I wait for next week to show up. : (

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 16:49
Roebear @chocolatetown>(@chocolatetown):
Klaus Dieter Kuebacher says Buba will resist paying out assets from a revaluation of its assets before spring 98.
So this means they double the value of their gold so they can sell half of it, keep the profit and still have the same reserves? Do I hear a hungry bear growling?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 16:41
Uris: Mr. Bork and many others are advocating the responsible approach. No question about it. Unfortunately, the lure of something for nothing will overcome reason every time. IMO, it is far better to devote one's energy to building barriers against the madness. Protect yourself from them at all cost. If necessary, be prepared to leave entirely. Sooner or later the madness will end. None of this means the end of the world.

Many here are of the opinion that reason must prevail before we encounter a serious and very painful collapse. We must change the present system and return to something more prudent both fiscally and morally. The counter point is that our lives have been materially improved solely as a result of more liberal policies installed and improved upon over the past 80 years or more. And that there is no compelling reason to return to a more conservative posture. ...... As of today; how do you think that argument will be decided? ...... Protect yourself at all costs.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 16:17
Uris @DFW Airport>(@DFW Airport):
Earl and others: As Robert Bork suggests in the final chapter of Slouching towards Gomorrah, The only way to avoid being dragged
down by the liberals is for the conservatives to mount an effective
alternative. So far I have seen no indication of this.
We can only hope it is not too late.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 16:13
George S. Cole bounce>(bounce):
XAU and HUI rallied a bit off their lows in last minute of trading. Could this portend a rally tomorrow?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 16:08
Jack Check Mcwatters Mining Long Term>(Check Mcwatters Mining Long Term):

FOR INFO ONLY: McWatters Mining is in deal to buy PDG's
Sigma and Kiena Mines. I see about 46 million+ shares
outstanding after proposed 1 for 3 reverse split. Sigma
may have had its problems of late, but McWatters a small
company dedicated to the area should do OK with Sigma.
Check her out. if your inclined to. Do your DD.
Try, then hit the Business and
Investing line and find quote box, put in ME:MCW.a, for
price and newsreleases. Also story in the Northern Miner
about them. Happy Trails.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 16:07
Novice @ Pa and Pl>(@ Pa and Pl):
D.A. I for one want to thank you for keeping us appraised of the situation on the hot whites. They are doing exactly as you predicted a few days ago. If it weren't for these two it would be torture being in precious metals these days. Hope you are right now about Ag.

Ted: THE LITTLE WOMAN!! Look out for incoming $#!+ from the opposite sex, aimed in the general direction of Mira Bay....; )

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 16:03
GVC @Byron>(@Byron):
Byron: don't count on it. look how long it took for the XAU to close its weekly gaps at the beginning of its run to 155 from its 106 low late '95 to Feb'96. Many traders are waiting to get in expecting that gap to close but could end up waiting a loooong time.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 15:57
Byron @ Closing The Gap!>(@ Closing The Gap!):
George: Look's like the XAU wants to close that Weekly Gap at 97 which APH mentioned yesterday.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 15:56
TED @tort>(@tort):
Tort: Great idea!...if gold gets any cheaper maybe I'll buy some of them gold bars and use em as kayak weights...could start a new trend in kayak gear....gotta run as it's time fer the chef ta do his thing.....Hope I didn't scare Jin with that chainsaw remark...hahaha..

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 15:53
George S. Cole XAU >(XAU ):
XAU now under 100. Looks like we're on our way to 97-98. Strength of subsequent rally will be very interesting.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 15:49
Ted, you are talking Albuquerque type breezes which are required to seize upon the hull of your mighty kayak and thrust it unthinkingly over the brink. I'm glad you got it back without going dinghy with worry. Maybe you should tie it to a tree and weight it down with gold bars.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 15:47
Short Bull @ closing>(@ closing):
I rotated my mutual funds from the Rydex Nova ( 150% S & P ) to
1/2 invested in Rydex Precious Metals ( XAU index ) and half in
the OTC fund ( grabbing the weakness today in tech ) . Go XAU!
This way if we go lower I can sell the NASDAQ 100 against my
cash position in the mutual funds. I can also daytrade by
selling into strength on the futures and locking in profits
in my mutual funds.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 15:34
TED @wind>(@wind):
Tort ( 12:59 ) Cat scan...hahahaha...On gettin in from the woods the little woman asked did you move your Kayak...I I didn't move it..
It was GONE!...panic city...rushed down to the bottom of the front yard and there it was over the cliff...Thank God it was low tide or it would have been history...Hard to believe the wind can blow a 16.5 foot boat over 20 feet and over a small cliff but.....

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 15:31
repack @SI post>(@SI post):
3613. repack on jun 2 1997 10:25pm

Three-two-five update:

I've got George S. Cole broke to lead.

They hate me so much over on K-1 that

they actually want gold to go down now

so that George S. Cole can be right.

I love it. I could never have caused

them to ever admit to it on my own.

$325 here we come.

( And especially sweet now that it

has the imprimatur of GSC ) .

What a great time to be alive, in the

time of three-two-five.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 15:28
Pepino di Cortino Les Pyranass,belle, belle>(Les Pyranass,belle, belle):

Bernatz: I missa your ( 05:09 ) . Thanka you for le belle
complimente abouta my Engleesh.
But justa 10 words from your BRILLIANTE poste, they ringa
like dissa famousa Engleesha guy, the Shaka di Speer.
( Shakespeer )
My posti, with a buncha word, they resounda like, dissa
guy who calla himself with da Two W's, after he hitta his
head on the wall. Maybe, he maka the gold go up

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 15:27
George S. Cole swing to the left>(swing to the left):
I find it hard to fathom the hostility towards WW on this forum. Some people are putting ideology ahead of their pocketbooks. For unless WW and I are correct about an impending swing to the political left, there probably will not be a really big move in gold. Anybody hoping to strike it rich in gold stocks should be praying for a swing to the left.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 15:20
JIN: Just got in from running my chainsaw in the woods and thank you very much for your e-mail ( some hints ) ...very interesting!...About my brother in Bangkok I'd like to use the chainsaw on him...hahaha...He is a lawyer ( no offense Tort ) and we are not on speaking terms these days because some USA lawyers are CROOKS!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 15:14
FIBO @EARL/ ooops , wrong date!>(@EARL/ ooops , wrong date!):
EARL: OOPS! Sorry, I meant to post April 18th ( not march 21 ) as the low weekly close date for gold @341.50. I was accidently looking at the 3rd week of march rather than the correct third week of April.

I based my conclusion due to a fibonacci number related A-B-C correction on a WEEKLY CLOSE basis only from the Feb'96 highs.

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Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 15:13
To All:

Just what do you suppose the boys from Almaz had to say to their Japanese PGM customers today? Hey buddy, can you spare an ingot? Pa up a mere $22.50 in the spot. Pl along for the ride. Keep an eye on silver. The lease rates are starting to tighten, which means someone or group of someones is starting to nibble away at the spot metal. Seeing how well the last corner has worked, it looks like the boys might be at it again.
If silver moves like Pa did we could see 9$ silver in six months. Kind of takes your breath away. In reality ( mine anyway ) , if a someone goes after the silver market the results may be more spectacular due the fact there is a much bigger options market and more retail participation. Option convexity can be a glorious thing.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:50
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
Well, I didn't get the movement in gold, in either direction, that would have gotten me in it today. I was looking for a deeper drop first, which didn't come, and barring that, a break back above 346.50-346.70 August. So neither down or up fulfilled my criteria. Close, but no cigar. Perhaps tomorrow. If it goes down into Monday, I believe we'll likely see new lows briefly. A most perfect buying opportunity should it present itself for about 10 micro-seconds before it comes popping back up!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:28
Short Bull @ Just bought a June Mini Value line at 759.10>(@ Just bought a June Mini Value line at 759.10):
I maybe am pushing my luck, but I went long the 4th time in 2 days.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:26
A must read is at gold eagle site- A CHICHEN IN EVERY SPECULATOR'S POT!!
thanks vronsky!

Also another one at gold eagle is the story of Crystalex, hit the Grandish button. The stock is up a bunch, what a ride!

Tally Ho!!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:26
Tortfeasor Robert Bork>(Robert Bork):
I agree with a previous post regarding Slouching Toward Gomorah by Robert Bork. It is really a must read book for anyone wondering why the USA is indeed seeming to come undone at its core. Its probably the most thought provoking books I have read in several years. He is right on the money in his assessments.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:25
Uris: Of course, that goes without saying. There is nothing personal in any of this. But, given legs, the socialist outcome will not be pleasant. Even for those who cherish it.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:20
Short BUll: Apparently, I am a contrary indicator. Pleased to be of service. ....... ( :- ) )

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:18
Uris @DFW Airport>(@DFW Airport):
Earl: Dont be too hard on WW. Like it or not, his socialist babblings
have generated some excellent posts by you and some of the regulars.
We all need to read different points of view.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:17
FIBO: What have relied on to feel comfortable about calling March 21 the low for gold?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:14
Short Bull @ Too many people looking for 97 XAU!>(@ Too many people looking for 97 XAU!):
When everyone picks out a price to buy....we often never reach that low.
At 97 the XAU is a steal. Today is the 3rd down day. Last time I
bought at 103.02 on the 2nd down day, and made a profit. Today I can
buy even cheaper.....

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:11
Short Bull @ Midday Comments>(@ Midday Comments):
Platinum closing so far off it's lows was a good omen for better prices
today. I tried working an order but it did not get filled, another good
sign. I also didn't get long my silver yesterday.

If the XAU closes under 101.00 I will be putting 50% of my Rydex money
in the Rydex Precious Metals fund today. I am 100% long Nova from
Friday with $849.20 close in the June S&P futures needed for break-even.
I will move the remainder 50% into cash.

Daytrading the futures, I did buy again on weakness yesterday. I made
a small trade in another June Mini-Value line from the long side. In
the NASDAQ 100 June futures, 848.50 was support yesterday. Today it was
resistance. I froze today and did not sell but it would have been a great
daytrade from the short side.

If we go down into the Monday Bradley turning point, it should be a bottom
for much higher prices. I was so bullish last weekend after Friday's
stock comeback. What a disappointment! The Invesco Tech fund I bought
on Friday rallied 1.3% yesterday. I will definitely be getting out today,
with hopefully a small profit still. I will be going 100% into Invesco
gold ( Juniors & small growth gold ) which fell 3 ticks yesterday and
probably getting it even cheaper today.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:10
George Cole: Agree again. XAU has short term support at 99. I feel so confident it will hold that I sold half of my position in ABX this morning @24.375. ....If the past is prologue, I will buy it back at 28 or so.... ( :- ) )

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:06
Uris: As an addendum: Most of us here already understand the problem. What we need is some sort of solution or failing that a way to protect ourselves against the WW's of this world. For they are surely in their ascendancy, once again. The result is not likely to be pretty.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:04
George S. Cole all news is bad news>(all news is bad news):
Current market sentiment in the gold complex -- all news is bad news -- is typically experienced near the end of secular bear markets. Gold's inability to rally along with platinum and palladium signals a very weak technical picture. There is a good chance bullion and the gold stock indexes soon will test their old lows and possibly take them out. But I remain confident that that we will see a new secular gold bull much sooner than most think.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 14:03
Uris: Judged by the reviews, it is a good read. To me it would be a case of 'preaching to the choir'. Will probably read Davidson's latest, first.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 13:57
Uris @DFW Airport>(@DFW Airport):
Earl: If you have not already done so, read Robert Bork's
Slouching towards Gomorrah. It bears out much of what you
preach about the sad state of fuzzy public thinking that is
prevalent in the US today.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 13:55
APH: I too have been looking at the mid July time frame for several months now. It is an important spiral calendar date by my calculations. Also, July 17 is the 55th trading day from the April 30 low in gold futures.
As far as the dow is concerned, it may have topped on May 27 at 7396 ( 86 squared ) . 55 days from that dated is July 21 which could be an important 'crash' day that also brings down the metals, xau after they have had a nice run-up.

I believe Mike Sheller has also pointed towards the mid July timeframe due to astrological events transpiring at that time.

I have been saying for some time now that on a weekly close basis the gold bear died on March 21 when it closed at 341.50. We have gone lower than that on an intraweek basis but still have not closed a week below that level. Until we do, the bull has begun , in my mind, anyway.

That's the way I am playing it. Who knows for sure , though. Cycles are tricky. You can very easily point towards a particular cycle date in the future for a top only to have it become a bottom instead. But , still, I think the risk/reward ratio is very favorable at this time.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 13:40
bw The boom:>(The boom:):
We in the usa are currently importing about 28% of our consumer goods. In the 1950's it was about 5%. In the 1950's there was about 4.5 square feet of merchandising space per capita in the usa. Today it is about 20 square feet per capita. Could it be that part of our boom of the last five years has been in the planning, design, construction, occupation and utilization of this temple? The topper is it has been paid for with iou's.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 13:27
panda @gas&oil.look.better>(@gas&oil.look.better):
Tortfeasor -- The yellow can't win either way it seems. Regarding unleaded, wasn't there some bill pending in the California legislature about oil companies charging too much for gasoline? I read something about this yesterday, can't remember where. I think fuel prices started going down on this news, something to do with politics I think. :- ) )

I'm now giving serious thoughts to XNG and XOI indexes..... Looking for an entry point. ( There, that should be enough to sink them now! )

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 13:23
APH ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^>(^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^):
Crawford made no mention of silver, just the metals in general for tues and gold for the 1.5 months, stocks down as much as 20% short term, down 40-50% by late 1998.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 13:11
Internet’s favorite economist, George S. Cole, sees DOW peaking in late summer - anticipates start of secular gold bull in same period. See Cole’s Market Insights - YOU MUST RELOAD:

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 13:06
Orenthal James>(

APH: Not too sure about ol' Arch, but like to hear
all opinions. Did he give any figures for the size
of the moves?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 12:59
The tortfeasor is getting hammered in the market today. Unleaded going down fast, soybeans following close behind and not to forget the gold market which is crusted over with non metalic substances. That being said, I could use an additional joke and I hope you will forbear my offering.

A lady awoke one morning and discovered her dog was not
moving. She called her vet who asked her to bring the dog in.
After a brief examination, the vet pronounced the dog dead.

Are you sure?, the distraught woman asked. He was a great
family pet. Isn't there anything else you can do?

The vet paused for a moment and said, There is one more thing
we can do. He left the room for a moment and came back
carrying a large cage with a cat in it. The vet opened the cage
door and the cat walked over to the dog. The cat sniffed the dog
from head to toe and walked back to the cage.

Well, that confirms it. the vet announced. Your dog is dead.

Satisfied that the vet had done everything he possibly could, the
woman sighed, How much do I owe you?

That will be $330. the vet replied.

I don't believe it!!!, screamed the woman. What did you do
that cost $330?

Well, the vet replied, it's $30 for the office visit and $300 for
the cat scan.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 12:58
nailz RE: ARCH>(RE: ARCH):
APH......Did Arch mention silver in that statement ?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 12:47
APH ***********************>(***********************):
Arch Crawford was just on the local tube. Next Tues. he's looking for a hugh convergence of stars, planets, etc. which will result in a big drop in stocks and a sharp rise in gold. He thinks gold will be strongly up for the next 1.5 months.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 12:28
GVC......You may be right. There are some of the market advisories still recommendinglong positions. I am looking for a place to add. Just don't want to do it too early, as that can be very painful.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 11:57
To all,
Tomorow 4/june is anniverary of china massacre:4th june tiananmer square incident!
check this in time,..
ted ,chck you mail box.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 11:55
George Cole: The conservative swing of the '80s was probably no more than a retracement of the long term 'loose money' trend. The elections of 1994 were nothing more than the final spike in that conservative countertrend rally. As you have been saying, the socialist trend is resuming.

Voters everywhere have now been conditioned to believe that governments and modern economics working in concert, are omnipotent. The unprecedented rise in living standards in this century would seem to put history in their camp. As a result there is absolutely no fear of potential unpleasantness, anywhere.

Given the present mind set of voters, your view is correct and the trend will continue until some natural agency intervenes. People will not be dissuaded from the socialist course by reason. Indeed, why should they? It has worked so nicely for most of this century. In there minds, there is no reason to expect that it won't continue to work into infinity.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 11:38

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 11:28
to all,the sky is falling............ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..
happy trading.....

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 11:13
GVC @nailz/xau>(@nailz/xau):
nailz: It seems to me that too many people are expecting the XAU to drop below the century mark for it to happen. Those looking for a better buying opportunity to get back in may be disappointed.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 10:34
BillInOregon @packing my suitcase>(@packing my suitcase):
Nailz--Thanks for the reply. We will not have the time to travel 240 miles this trip but thanks any way. Looks like our company will be opening a wharehouse in Tenn. If they do, I will be back there more often.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 10:25
ALL.....Anybody else read Deaner this morning He says XAU going lower...Mid to low 90s....I didn't look for it to go that low....I am thinking 96-97.5.....

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 10:16
vronsky Intra-Day Charts>(Intra-Day Charts):
Precious Metals Futures Up led by White Metals: Platinum UP 8.80, Palladium UP 12.20, Silver UP 2 cents, Gold down 10 cents:

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 10:15
George S. Cole short-term and long-term>(short-term and long-term):
Recent developments in Europe are short-term bearish for gold, but longer-term bullish.

Leftist victory in France and EMU doubts have stregthened the dollar and the relative atractiveness of U.S. investments. German government pressure on BUBA to revalue gold reserves is seen by some as an intermediate step that could well lead to outright sales.

But the apparent cresting of the global conservative tide as evidenced by rising opposition to austerity measures in the advanced capitalist nations is very bullish for the yellow metal longer-term.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 10:05
vronsky A Chicken in Every Speculator's Pot>(A Chicken in Every Speculator's Pot):
Globally acclaimed Analyst sees “Gold skyrocketing when leveraged players are forced to buy back their forward sales. Margin calls will cause price to feed on itself higher. See Editorials:

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 09:43
Bob @...more good news for gold...darn !>(@...more good news for gold...darn !):
Looks like gold will be down again today in this contrarian logic market.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 09:42
George S. Cole politics and markets>(politics and markets):
BOB M: History shows that trends tend to go to extremes in both politics and markets. The now cresting conservative tide began as a reaction to the liberal excesses of the 1960s and early 1970s which stifled initiative and allowed inflation to get out of control.

The nascent move to the economic left ( and this includes many culturally right wing populists such as France’s Le Pen ) is a reaction to the gross excesses of the today's conservative movement and its unending attempt further enrich the wealthy and comfortable at the expense of the rest of society. Inflation is down but job insecurity is way up. The last 20 years have been great for investors, executives, the financial community, and many professionals, but much tougher for average people everywhere. Common sense dictates that such a trend cannot continue indefinitely in democratic societies.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 09:41
TED @NDPland>(@NDPland):
XAU down .27....The NDP idiots are goin WILD here...We showed them in Ottawa blusters all the Buddy Bretons...I'm off to the woods fer some chainsawin...and a dose of much needed REALITY.....That's called WORK Bretoners....somethin you are very unfamilar with!...Keep puttin that food on the table and see how FAT ya can really the work+money of other Canadians....

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 09:29
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
It's early yet, but I can still say, 'How 'bout that platinum'!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 09:18
Bob M>(
George S. Cole-You are very correct in your observation on the world political spectrum cresting for the conservative movement. In a way that is tragic as the conservative movement of the last few decades has seen so many positive achievements with the death of expansionist communism, unprecedented peace time growth, the global economy evolving positively, even here in the US the 90s has been a very stable period thus far. But if the movement swings to the left dramatically, the seas will become very choppy and monetization will become more apparent in the developed economies. But the big question is how will the former USSR and the downtrodden Eastern European countries survive a major inflation surge? Will they react defensively and revert to aggression and put us back where we were in the 70s? Could get very interesting. Thanks.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 09:06
Au99.9 @ Wondering>(@ Wondering):
Deadman, you're a gentleman. Thank you.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 09:00
Deadman Posting>(Posting):
Au:99 Searle posts a couple of tomes a week here

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 08:56
Au 99.9 @ Wondering>(@ Wondering):
Interesting how an honest question can elicit a response fron a procreational appendage!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 08:46
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
I think I'm going to like today in the metals. Maybe not right off, but today.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 08:34
Plaintalker @ home in FL.>(@ home in FL.):
Bernie: Immediatrely after retirment in1985 I purchased a motor home and 4 wheel drive and spent 6 summers approx 7 months each year for 6 yrs in the lost sierra, returning to FL. each winter. I bought a couple of gold dredges and had the greatest time of my life. We, my wife and I did not recover a lot of gold -40 + ounces but that was secondary. Get a forrest svc map and go beyond clipper mills Ca following a dirt road ( 4 wheel drive mandatory ) to race track point on north yuba, also go into canyon creek area below Laporte, most spectalur area in the high sierra.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 08:33
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
In Cape Breton ( aside from bein IDIOTS ) we call Silver....Siver!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 08:31
TED @ediotville>(@ediotville):
EBN Gold up .70 and Siver up 3 cents...The Dollar is generally down and is sharply down against the YEN after last night a official called for a 103 dollar....Ediot: I don't like the NDP or the Detroit Red Army hockey team!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 08:20
TED @ediot>(@ediot):
Just got an e-mail from neighbor Eddie going boonkers over his beloved NDP...excuse me while I blow me lunch all over the keyboard...gush..splat....Maybe he ain't welcome to come over ta watch his beloved Red Army team....It's great living among!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 08:11
Timothy McVeigh @AU 99.9>(@AU 99.9):
AU 99.9: He's DEAD!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 08:08
TED @idiotville>(@idiotville):
Once again we ( Nova Scotia ) bucked a national trend and shot ourselves in the foot...somethin we are famous fer!.....Two thirds of yocal Liberals where turned out of office but at least they threw out Davy DINGWALL....The NDP will lead us to the promised land..hahahaha..

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 08:04
Au99.9 @ Wondering!!!>(@ Wondering!!!):
Whatever happened to Searle? His postings to Kitco were always an inspiration and treat to read.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 07:56
APH ---------------------------->(----------------------------):
Savage - I saw your reply. Thanks, your strategy is a little clearer to me now. When we where talking about the XAU and you mentioned futures on it, it threw me at first since there's no future contract on the XAU index. I'm still learning the best way to deal with these option trades.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 07:44
George s. Cole go for grwoth>(go for grwoth):
WW; I suspect we are witnessing a sea change in the global political tide. The move to the political right seems to be cresting. This supports Stephen Leeb's aregument that governments will be forced to go for growth in the years ahead and inflation be damned. Gold will do very nicely under this scenario as will other investments that tend do well in periods of strong growth and rising inflation -- real estate, small cap stocks, etc.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 07:41
George s. Cole go for grwoth>(go for grwoth):
WW; I suspect we are witnessing a sea change in the global political tide. The move to the political right seems to be cresting. This supports Stephen Leeb's aregument that governments will be forced to go for growth in the years ahead and inflation be damned. Gold will do very well under this scenario as will other investments that tend do well in periods of strong growth and rising inflation -- real estate, small cap stocks, etc. I suspect the big cap stock averages will make 1997 highs that will not be exceeded until well after the year 2000.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 07:29
Jin: What do you think about Tuesdays market action for the Hang Seng?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 07:27
TED @tort>(@tort):
Tort:WE ARE UP!...Good mornin joke...not good...GREAT!...haven'tweaved me way to bonus joke yet but Iez gettin there...EBN Gold up .85!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 07:20
TED @hangseng>(@hangseng):
Weird night last night aside from Canadian politics...In Hong Kong where there has been a stock market mania going on the Hang Seng started the night shooting straight up to over +250 but then turned south big time and ended DOWN 230.73 ( = to about a 130 point loss on thew Dow ) the Hang Seng began to turn around...GOLD+SILVER PLUS USD began to turn around also...EBN Gold now up .85 and SILVER up 5 cents...The HK economy and markets are closely linked to the U.S.Dollar ( USD ) and could this be a sea change....The people of Hong Kong have historically been big fans of GOLD....Has the bubble been pricked or is this just a one night turn-around....

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 07:16
Tortfeasor Bonus Joke>(Bonus Joke):
Since I have to unload my unleaded options this month, I would be very greatful if you folks would quit spending so much time on this line and get out and drive a little. All I need is 2 cents a gallon. Since my first joke of the morning was a religious joke of sorts I follow it up with more.

A New York tailor, devout Jew all his days, tries very hard to bring up his children in the faith. One day, his youngest son comes to him and announces that he is becoming a Christian. The tailor ponders his misfortunes, trying to understand why such a thing should happen to him.

In desolation, he seeks out his rabbi and confides in him. Rabbi, laments the tailor, I do not understand. I have a son, a good Jewish boy, brought up in the faith. We observed, we attended, we did everything for the boy, and yet he decides to become a Christian. How can this thing be? My friend, says the rabbi, you WOULDN'T believe, but I must tell you. I, too, have a son, a good Jewish boy, brought up here in the synagogue in the faith. Yet, he also became a Christian. Who is to know? The Almighty has his reasons. All we can do is pray to Him for answers.
With that, the two of them set forth in devout prayer. Suddenly, the lights dim, the walls shake, and God's voice fills the room. Let me tell you two, you WOULDN'T believe, but I had a son, a good Jewish boy...

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 07:10
Tortfeasor Joke of the morn>(Joke of the morn):
Gold and silver both up this morning. Looks somewhat promising. You can't keep a good corpse down. Now for my post of the morning:

The Pope had just finished a tour of the East Coast and was
taking a limousine to the airport. Having never driven a limo,
he asked the chauffeur if he could drive for awhile.

Well, the chauffeur didn't have much of a choice, so the chauffeur
climbs in the back of the limo and the Pope takes the wheel.
The Pope proceeds to hop on Route 95 and starts accelerating to see
what the limo could do. Well he gets to about 90 miles per hour
and, Oh No!, there are the red lights of the State Police
in his rear view mirror.

He pulls over and the trooper comes to his window. Well the trooper,
seeing who it was, says just a moment please I need to call in.

The trooper radio's in and asks for the chief. He tells the chief
I've got a Really important person pulled over and I need to know
what to do.

The chief replys Who is it, not the major again? The trooper says,

No, even more important. The chief replys, It's the Governor, is it ?

The trooper replys No, even more important.

It isn't Clinton is it after another tryst and a night of hard drinking on the town?

No, more important, replies the trooper.

Well who the heck is it!, screams the chief.

I don't know says the trooper. But he's got the Pope as a chauffeur!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 07:04
Roebear @OSHAclass>(@OSHAclass):
The gold price sneaks up .90 while everyone is sleeping in. SHHH! Don't wake the baby!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 05:51
Bernie South Yuba>(South Yuba): yours of Monday 20:27. It was the South Yuba near Bridgeport. I am new to area, I know where Sierra City is but not sure of slate creek? Looking forward to walking the North Yuba too, hope it is as beautiful as the South, any suggestions? I hope you were more successful at panning than I have been.

Why would you move from this area to Florida if you do not mind my asking?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 05:12
H Bunker Hiyo Silver>(Hiyo Silver):

Thank ya, Pepino, ya maka, er, you make sense, pard.
I know whatcha mean about them revenuers. Only my
little woman Helen knows where my silver is. The
IRS asked me where it was and I told them to go to
Helen Hunt for it! Heh Heh, that's a knee slapper,
ain't it?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 05:09
For Monsiour di Cortino
Ah lovva zee way you speeka zee Engleesh.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 04:25

H.Bunker: Hopa you maka the bigga money, I lika the
silver too.

I'm no buya the Italia's bonds, I lova my Italia and no
lika the Lire becausa she maka too many little baby lira
to keepa her price up, howa you calla the ( the interest ) .
The Lira may go downa in price. I lika the gold mines who
maka the stuff.
I giva the taxa guy a casa of wine, that maka him happy,
then we chasa the le signorene and they maka him real
happy. So now you know, we alla paisans, here in LA

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 04:15
John Disney>(
For Kuston
RSA strike was a COSATU strike. It was intended
as a show of strength by cosatu against the Government.
Cosatu is national union and very political. Strike
not aimed at mines. If NUM ( mining union ) missed a shift
it was in sympathy with Cosatu strike ( which aimed at
all employment nation wide ) . July good time for strikes.
Its cold here so strikers dont demonstrate much. It
would be hell if weather was warmer. When I get morning
Business Day Ill add more if useful info forthcoming. For
time being I would not be too worried.
For EWP.
You say silly things to weennie wacker. Of course he
cannot comprehend mathmatical concepts you fool. He is
a lawyer. He only understands lots of words and over
blown pompous emotional self serving statements. Save
your strength. I humbly suggest you get get on with
your life and pay as little attention as possible to
the wacker. I think I will report him to the EPA for
word pollution of what was once a fine site.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 03:47
H. Bunker @HiYo Silver>(@HiYo Silver):

Pepino: Howdy, pard. How do explaina them I-talian

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 03:40
Pepino di Cortino VIVA ITALIA>(VIVA ITALIA):

You Guysa: Today, how you say I learna a bigga bunch.
Firsta you hava alla thosa nicea things that maka you pay
the taxa, so they hava the money that you hopa dey giva
you back.
Denna doza guys they maka the jobs to paya themselves
your money and becoma richa guys. Ima tella the Pope.
Denna your bambino's they worka for doza guys to paya da
tax, so you can getta your money back. MAMA MIA
THANKA GOD FOR, LA BELLA ITALIA', where we no paya our
tax and maka the wine. Sure we chasa, how you say, da
girls, they lika it too; and we alla so happy.
Sure when you growa the grapes that maka the vino on the
side of the hill, one lega getsa longer dan the other,
but wenn you worka in the other direction, itsa help
My Uncle who go to America, say the Dottore, he charga
him bigga money to fixa his leg and the nice Dottore,
hesa compensated himselfa real good.

LA BELLA ITALIA, LA BELLA ITALIA, I lova you, the besta
pease on the world.

Ciao Guysa, I'm always learna.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 03:34
Prospector @Pacific Coast>(@Pacific Coast):
“Last I looked the population out west ( western Canada ) coul be fitted in Southern Ontario and the industries producing the countries wealth came from Ontario and Quebec.”
Junior - this is the kind of comment the Soviet occupiers of Poland or Czechoslovokia would make.

Junior ,
- military contracts exclusively go to Ont/Que axis curious but essentially do to pork barrelling. Done no doubt to prop up the Ontario industries at the expensive of opportunities elsewhere. Canada is one of those socialistic countries that props up its main revenue generating industries with subsidies. ( Unemployment insurance grants to GM to support a “temporary” labour pool. )
- National energy program - does not need explaining except that it was a highly undemocratic tactic but forced upon one region, without too much debate, by another.
- Of the 10 Canadian provinces and 2 territories - BC Alberta and Ont. pay in more than is taken out in country wide equalization transfer payments. The Financial post reported ~1 1/2 ago that the total sum of transfers out of Alberta equal ( $25 billion ) the exact same amount sucked out of confederation by Quebec between 1975-95. This is what makes this Canadian Confederation such a REALLY GOOD THING. And a lot seems to go to those areas of the country with the most government members.
- Federal Government jobs in BC and Alberta have a very high ( disproportionate ) number of tax-supported employees from La Belle Province ( Que ) . Entering Jasper Nat. Park I get interrogated by individuals who speak poorer English than the prime minister.
- Westerners being forced to buy expensive ( tariff ) protected goods from Quebec & Ontario instead of imports ( “buy buy buy Canadian!!!” )
Auto industry a classic example of this. Canadian confederation is based upon anti-Americanism which is why Ontario bought into confederation and why tariffs have played such a big part in propping up regional plants in Ontario from foreign multinationals.
As a colony of Ontario the concept of the western provinces was imperialistic in the we supply the cheap resources and get sold back to us the finished goods by Ontario.
- Ontario/Quebec stacked senate - if the US had our structured senate them Boeing in Everett, Wash would near be where it is. The CF-18 maintenance contract going to Quebec and not to the lower bid aircraft company in Winnipeg about 10 years ago is classic. Some how these central Canadians think no one will notice these little stunts. It seems this election a lot have out hear ( in Manitoba at least ) .
- Milk marketing board - BC has 12% of population but can only ( by law ) produce 4.5% of the total quotas for the country. The balance we can not produce we have to purchase from central Canada. ( i.e. the Quebec milk monopoly )

I really would like to know Junior the exact cost but how to you value lost oppourtunity and the value of industry propt up by tarriffs?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 02:13
Here is more on the S. African strike:

Didn't these miners strike last July for 3+ weeks? Maybe this year
it will happen again. Is there something special about July in S.
Africa? Weather, vacations, something that would lead these people
to want a couple of weeks of vacation?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 01:58

S. Africa miners didn't go to work Sunday night according to this article.
I can't find anymore information on it though. The markets didn't react
to the news today.

Palladium - Spent alot of the night digging for news. It seems the Russian
Almaz group is in Japan talking about resuming PA/PL shipments. They
arrived there this past weekend. The spin doctors have assigned credit
to the rumor that the Russian CB was going to dump PA from its stockpiles.
I find it hard to believe also - but that's the best report I can find.
I personnally like my idea better ( PA shorters drove the other white metals
down and let the arbs drive down PA ) .

I did find a report where Merril Lynch delieved some PL today to NYMEX.
From the what's it worth field - one HK trader thought the PA range
would be $165-$190 until shipments started from Russia.

THis week should be big - the news will come out of Japan one of these
nights and the market will open one way or the other. Has anyone read
anything on these Almaz/Japan talks? Which day are they scheduled to
end? If D.A.'s theory of the Tiger fund bidding on the stockpiles has
merit then I would expect these Japanese talks will not end with a
signed deal. That should shake the market up alittle. I would think
the $190 area might be possible again this week. It's time to place
your bets I think.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 01:54
WW: A repost from late last nite.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:29
Earl ( ) :
WW: Forgive me for taking a jaded or cynical view here but I must ask the question. Does your law practice
depend, in some material fashion, on work derived from SS or other government programs? A lawyer who
expresses such concern for the downtrodden must have some well connected financial fish to be fried. These
unrelenting expressions of outrage over the actions of democratic congressional majorities, raiding trust funds
for decades, must be more than a pro bono expression. BTW, The repubs would be equally culpable except
they are too stupid to tie their own shoe laces. My goodness. Either, sue, settle or find a new client.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 01:45
Fidelity Select American Gold Chart, hourly prices in percent,
seven hours ( prices ) per day, for ten days.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 01:12
Selby PorkProducer>(PorkProducer):
Ted: Nite. gotta get enuf sleep to take in the game.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 01:09
TED @sleepytimeferbonzo>(@sleepytimeferbonzo):
Goodnight Selby..................

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 01:07
Selby Heartland of Transfer PayOuts>(Heartland of Transfer PayOuts):
EWP: My understanding of entitlements is that you get them whether you pay in to them or not. I always think of US foodstamps as the prototype. The CPP is paid into by all employees on a % schedule based on earned income. When you get the CPP payuments when you are 60 or older the amount you get is dependent on how much you put in and for how long you paid in. If you don't work you can't pay in and you can't take out. Lots more details of course but I don't see an entitlement here--just a national pension plan for the employed. More going out than in and hence the actuarial panic.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 01:00
TED @goodnight>(@goodnight):
Good Night TOO Tarnished!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:58
Bob are both right>( are both right):
Prospector/Junior: Central Canada helped develop the west and the west help the east during the oil crisis - even though a few idiots wanted us easterners to freeze in the dark. Remember the car bumper stickers ?

We are all intereste din a strong and properous Canada. What Canada lacks if decisive leadership in Ottawa. The Separatist issue should be ended as Selby and I have discussed earlier- let the separatisit minority form surrender their canadian citizenship and prvileges and form their own govt. Quebec would host two govts - a provincial federalist ( Montreal ) govt and a national govt in Quebec City - share the land - no border police - pay taxes to respective govts - share provincial/fed public debt - and most of all - peaceful coexistance for mutual economic harmony. End of story. ...End of Liberal domination of Federal govt.

Cheers and goodnight

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:48
Bob @... Right. Reform Leadership.>(@... Right. Reform Leadership.):
Savage: You are right. I wasn't charitable to Ranji. Anyone who posts a 1300+ word article that had factual errors ( knowingly or unknowingly ) is not generous either.

Reformers: Get rid of Manning and some blockhead party rules and Reform will attract the quality of People it needs in Ontario to become a national governing party.

Referendums are a waste of time and costly method to run a government. If referendums were an active method of governance Canadians would be
involved with an endless election campaigns and politics that would be divisive and strain our precarious federation.

Political issues are sufficiently complex to warrant a six week campaign every four years - and that is enough to stress out most Canadians as is.

To permit the electorate to fire the government between elections is stupid and idealistic. The fact is that most ridings elect people with less than 50% of the vote. To permit the majority of losers to have the right to impeach the incumbent who won the seat on a minority split vote is cruel and unusual punishment. Who would want to run for public office with this stupid overhang ? Right, the idle rich or poor and a few crack pot idealogues.

I was a Reform party member before most people west of the manitoba border new they existed - late 1980's.

Seven years ago I ran in Ontario as a candidate for the Oakville Milton Reform Party nomination and was told that I should withdraw because I am an antiabortionist ( no spams please - I'm just giving you the facts ) .

The question raised by the Reform Party election committee was that if the electorate in Oakville-Milton asked me to vote for abortion would I do so. I said no. My reason ? I told the committee that I would disclose that I was an anti-abortionist, if asked, and that should suffice. The electorate could decide in the ballot box if I was their man. Period.

The committee was quickly turned-off and recommended that I withdraw. Guess who eventually ran and won the candidacy for Oakville-Milton riding and lost the federal election ? A guy who was a Vietnam Veteran ( Canadian volunteer ) who operated a small construction firm ( I think ) in rural Milton who always made a point that he was a Vietnam Vet during his public speaking attempts.

From my brief experience - about 7 yrs. ago - speaking as a candidate for the Reform nomination in Oakville-Milton the Reform party has a long way to go to build a successful team of candidates in Ontario before they may form a government.

The first order of business would be for Manning to inform the party that he will resign within the year and open the way for a national leadership conference. Leadership candiadtes should have sufficient time to consider and plan their candidacy and the balance of three years of Official Opposition experience to ready the party for the next battle in 2001.


Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:46
TED @hangsengandgold>(@hangsengandgold):
Hang Seng down 159 and tonight's graph on spot Gold is headin UP...

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:43
Ron French Elections>(French Elections):
There should be at least one socialist country around -- as an example.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:42
TED @juniorandprospector>(@juniorandprospector):
Junior+Prospector: Lets get ready to rumble!...12 round championship fight with the three knockdown rule in effect....Ding...

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:33
WW: What solutions have you been talking about?
1 ) Raising tax rates ( that will be passed to future generations ... the monster gets bigger ) ?
2 ) Means testing ( which is only a cheap bandage {not that much $$$ saved .. and people will find ways to qualify ... hiding assets, etc.} and does n't do squat to address actuarial problems of the system ) .

I guess if you thirty or forty and want your entitlement ... you want somebody else to pay for it ( which is somebody younger and unable to defend themselves against taxation without representation ) .

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:28
selby: I questioned the stability of the CPP and health care systems ( some people refer to them as entitlements ) .

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:24
junior get real>(get real):
Prospedtor: I don't know what numbers you are using but am very much interested in knowing how you figure that the west who voted Reform supports Ontario and the rest of Canda. Last I looked the population out west coul be fitted in Southern Ontario and the industries producing the countries wealth came from Ontario and Quebec.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:22
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
EWP -- TOO late. Yupper! As with any debt based system, where the only money in circulation has been loaned into existence, collapse is built in. It always requires people to continually borrow, just to have currency in the system. And to borrow at ever increasing speed to avoid 'liquidity' problems in the system. However, people only have so much borrowing capacity so, over time, the banking system has to continually lower the credit-worthiness of the borrower to perpetuate the scam and liquidity. Eventually, the point comes when bancruptcies grow in numbers and enormity. The last phase is when the government tries to take up the slack with even more printing and spending. But the hand-writing is, and always has been, on the wall. There is no way to build the tower-of-babel higher, or even to keep it from crumbling. What will make this worse is that this currency is also the 'reserve' currency for so many other countries and we are one of the worlds biggest marketplaces! It won't be an isolated event.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:21
WW @New England>(@New England):
EWP: I propose a solution to the Entitlement problem and you shoot it down on the old future generations burdens. OK I want very high taxes and regulations on industry to offset the enviromental problems caused by pollution. Further there should be an agency to continue observation and impose fines on all industry with respect to any possibility they may harm future generations. A commission should be appointed to determine the harm and make the appropriations to the injured. Lets protect future generations now !!

In the same spirit lets limit SS and Medicare for the people who paid for it so we can save future generations!!!! Afterall whats the 15% of your income you have been charged over the last 20 years , if you are 40, hey your selfish to depend on anything for the SS and MEDI you paid for.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:20
Selby Central Canada>(Central Canada):
EWP: I don't think that Canada has any entitlement programs as you defined the term. Maybe I'm wrong. What did you have in mind?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:18
TED @hangseng>(@hangseng):
Weird night in Hong Kong as Hang Seng was up over 200 and is now down over 150....Could this be the end of the stock market mania in Hong Kong?
If so ....could some of that dough end up in Gold....YES!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:13
TED @reb>(@reb):
Reb:You sound like a true sports fan and that I like Bulls have won their share and ain't ya gettin a wee bit greedy my friend...Do you really want the Mailman and Johnny Stockton to go out with no championship ring on their pinkies...Course if it was my team ( the KNICKS...and don't say nothin ) I'd feel the same way you do!...MGraves: Alexa is here now....seeing the captain...

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:12
Jack Toronto 300>(Toronto 300):

Notice that over the past few weeks a good number of
times that the Toronto 300 ( sometimes smartly ) ended up
on DOW down days. Do you think that anything can be read
into this?

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:09
Entitlement programs will be the downfall of the U.S., Canada, Europe, and Japan in a few decades. Unless any of them has the courage to fix them. It's demographics pal. Entitlements based on defined benefits ( versus defined contribution ) are doomed to failure ( they end up as political vehicles that get out of control ... and crash ... pyramid schemes cannot last forever ) .

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:05
ted: thanks for response. I guess that is what the reform in U.S. was promoting ( or should have promoted heavily ) . That Billionare guy destroyed the party in 1996 because he is not a team player.

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:03
Ted: The rest of the NBA and fans have my sympathy, and nothing lasts forever. Please, however, indulge those who live in close proximity to the moments of glory of the Bulls. What the Bulls have accomplished is not typical of Chicago sports teams. No comment is necessary re the Cubs, except that they have served well as the farm team for Cy Young winners for the rest of the league. I don't think there will ever be another good Bears team for as long as Mike McCaskey is in charge. Wherever you are George Halas, I hope you do not have to witness what your wimp Grandson has wrought. Go Bulls!!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:02
Ww @New England>(@New England):
As Y Gaigor Cabinet level officer of Yeltsin's reform movement has indicated we need a social market economy. These are concepts we NEED to look at soon!! The Russians have been through upheaval and thus recognize the rule of law as important to maintaining Democratic order. The US must maintain its Entitlement promises or history shows there will be problems!!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:01
EWP: At least I can spell yer name right!

Date: Tue Jun 03 1997 00:00
Prospector: Thanks .. I was wondering if they had any similiarity with the U.S. Reform movement ( which I think is structurally falling apart ) and focusing of issues like the national debt and reforming entitlements to keep them for growing totally out of control ( it may be too late though anyway )

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:59
TED @ewp>(@ewp):
EWP: Yes! The Reform Party led by Preston Manning....

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:56
WW: What makes you think I'm a right winger ( maybe I am .. maybe I'm not ) . Most of the entitlement plans around the world are based the pay as you go theory ( like a ponzi or pyramid scheme since most of these plans are actuarial out of balance ... so you can understand it .. people get more out than they contribute and the bill gets pass on to the next generation and so on and so on .. and tax RATES are raised over time until the systems eventually collapse ( but most politicians are only concern about the next election .. that is what the Democrats Mediscare campaign was all about .... selling out the future ... especially those not old enough to vote ... since the will have to deal with the debt someday and your generations retirement ( because you will get more than your entitled to ... especially since a boomer will live in his mid 80s and his contribution will probably only cover the time until he reaches the early to mid 70s. That is a mathematical concept I hope you can understand.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:55
Prospector The person who has to pay for those SS benefits>(The person who has to pay for those SS benefits):
The regions of Canada who voted for this left wing Liberal party correspond very nicely with
the regions who have the most to benefit from welfare cheques and unemployment insurance. Dependency on the
state has played a big part in voting paterns. The western provinces who pay for those benefits
incidently voted against the Liberals. The vote is by no means an endorsement of socialism in as
much as an endorsement of social dependancy.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:49
Ted: Does any party in Canada proposed to change the soon to be bankrupt CPP and other entitlements ( e.g. health care ) without placing a huge tax burden on the younger generations ( similiar to the ponzi scheme here in the U.S. ) ? Basically, having enough ... guts .. to reform it ( slow the growth, etc. ) .

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:48
WW @New England>(@New England):
EWR: YOU DO NOT LISTEN: The people of the world will not give up the benefits they have paid for. I do not know why this is difficult for the right to understand since they think everyone is trying to take there money. GOD BLESS THE VOTERS OF FRANCE AND CANADA. I have always said Democracy WORKS!!!!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:48
Prospector @Reform Party Headquarters>(@Reform Party Headquarters):

Reform is a right wing party, although initially it was a populist movement ( including all types from the leading parties ) against the Liberal and Tory mismanagement and patronage.

Recently it has become the only voice of English speaking Canadian since the Liberals silenced any voices from within its own ranks.

Our current financial success in Canada was based largely on the Liberal and Tory and NDP parties adopting the Reform financial policies. In Canada, a party does not necessarily have to hold

power to have a big influence on the Country.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:45
Savage reply>(reply):
APH: I kind of buried your name in my last post; did you notice it?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:43
Savage remark & reply>(remark & reply):
BOB: You weren't very charitable to Ranji...I see prophecy being fulfilled in those lines.APH: Really not much to tell but; let's say back when gold rallied to the 360's I bought some cheap insurance ( puts ) at 340 ( which I did ) . Now, I'm not really a bear on gold so...when gold approaches 340 I reverse the put with a long future....ergo unlimited upside but at 340 NO downside. ( That is, anything I lose on the future I gain on the put....and above 340 it's all gravy. That's how I turn a cheap put into a long call )

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:41
Paul: Mean and intolerable? Cough! Sputter! Arghhhh! ...... Lets see if I understand this. The issue on the table is reconciliation. Right? But I must agree to set aside my magnum of Roma Rocket for a bottle of wine more conducive to mellower outcome. Right?

Though its unfair of me to enlarge your position beyond what you have stated; the implication is: That if I develop a taste for undistilled spirits, with a purchase price in excess of 5 USD, fermented of lighter skinned grapes, ordinarily dispensed from chilled green bottles *with out* handy twist lock caps, commonly found in the trunks of Volvo sedans driven only by sensitive socially concerned individuals who attend all the better functions and sip, said spirits, only in moderation; it will naturally follow that my spirit will become one the world .... and peace and tranquility will reign once more? Hmmmmm! I like that very much ...... but would I still advocate the summary execution of every convicted drug user and dealer we can seize. Without regard for station or circumstance.

An interesting coincidence happened today. A friend called to imform me that a mutual aquaintance from 15 years ago was just arrested with 6 TONS of cocaine in his possesion. ..... Thumbs up or thumbs down? 6 tons of the crap would supply a lot of kids. As well as provide considerable amusement at some of the better soires.

At the very least, the permanent removal of this fellow would mean that suppliers would be forced to find another means of conveyance. Practical reality should always be divorced from one's sense of personal taste. Though we may feel squeemish about killing these folks, our squeemishness does not subtract one ounce from the practical utility of doing so. IMO.

I extend my hand, without hesitation. I am not offended by you poor choice of words. From personal experience I realize how easily done and difficult to undo. I ask only one thing in return. And that is to remember that forums like this are a battle of ideas ..... never people. Attacking the person instead of the idea, only confuses the issue and contributes nothing to enlightenment.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:37
M.Graves @ Valley>(@ Valley):
Hey Ted : Just got home from the donut shop and see that the liberals are in again!!! The seagull landed , and I think the fan club is a good idea!! Hope the reformers hang on to be the opposition. Are you inviting Alexa over for a victory party ha ha ha

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:36
TED @capebretonbunker>(@capebretonbunker):
EWP: Moderate...Election update: LIB.153 REF.61 BQ.46 ndp.21 PC.19 OTH.1...Who the hell is OTH? EBN Gold up .35...

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:35
tarnished Reforming my Dinghy>(Reforming my Dinghy):
TED: Thanks fer forwarding the L.E. joke....sadly fitting...
So, the new Atlantic motto...Think thanks to Corning

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:26
WW: I guess you're talking about the total decline of the industrial world to socialism.

Watching the Canada election on C-SPAN. Pretty interesting. Some Americans like myself acknowledge you hosers and what is going on up north.

Are the Reform in Canada moderate compared to the Libs ... and PC and BQ.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:19
TED @capebretonbunker>(@capebretonbunker):
Dollar ( U.S. ) headin south...EBN Gold up .35...Reb: Pox on yer Bulls!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:15
Here is a brief article about China discussion with Japan re relationship with USA. This is a situation to watch, IMO. If Japan works out some sort of cozy arrangement with China it will be good-bye US $, IMO.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:15
TED @tort>(@tort):
Tort: Great L.E. joke!...on such a grim night...

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:11
WW @New England>(@New England):
Today Canada and France/ tomorrow the world.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:10
TED @ndpland>(@ndpland):
Selby:I'll keep an eye out fer dem barrels...Night Panda...Election returns: LIB.155 REF.50 BQ.44 ndp.21 PC.17 OTH.1 ...

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:03
Selby Upper Canada>(Upper Canada):
Ted: Stay off the streets you might get hit by one of the barrels of pork that will be rolling in before the end of the week.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 23:02
panda @++++>(@++++):
TED -- I'm going to do something very positive for me now. I'm going to sleep! Yes, I will become a sleep walker! I will be taken care of! From cradle to grave no less! Now, who will pay for MY utopia? Those greedy corporations and rich people of course! And my stox in those companies will make me rich! Yes, I see the light!

It will be interesting to see how long the markets will like this 'paradigm' shift. One thing is clear, this is good for 'stuff', not good for paper. The question, as usual, is time. Good night all, and have another one on me TED, looks like you'll need it...... Time fer another drin.........

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 22:56
Old saw sell in May and go away, worked in two of last three years ( '94 & '96 ) . Inger Letter Forecast of 6/2/97 is insightful. See Gold Digest & Reload:

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 22:53
TED @spaceship>(@spaceship):
Panda: I can turn markets with just a double
Yes, the leftward tilt is veeeeeeeerry positive fer de stocks...Gephardt
..HAHAHAHA...Teddy Kennedy fer pres...Nailz:Iez ready fer Scaterie..right now...Willy will be lead dog...

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 22:45
TED.....Well let's forget trying to hit it in the metals markets....If I just come up there and we locate what is within a few miles of you neither of us will have to sweat it anymore...Just sit back and wait for the big bucks....Whatcha think

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 22:41
panda @?>(@?):
TED -- Fess up, Ted. What did you do up there in Canada? First the $C is down, now it's up on the Globex. Pretty soon, I suppose it'll be all around! Heard some great spin on the Leftward march in the 'world'. It's gonna be really good for the maaaakits, uuuullllll seeee! By dem stox, dey gonna go to da mooon! Ooopps, time fer another one....

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 22:37
TED @panda>(@panda):
WE'RE FREAKIN OUT!!...One of these days I'll send you the story of the gun,bullits, and dogs....A must read!...JFK Jr. was on History channel tonight...He's a real rags ta riches

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 22:33
PANDA......Thanks for the info Had heard pretty much the same.....I will be close to a pewter with access but will have to locate sites etc......BILL IN OREGON.....I am 120 miles away......all interstate....

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 22:32
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
EBN GOLD up .25 and SILVER up 2 cents....

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 22:31
Prospector @Reform Party Headquarters>(@Reform Party Headquarters):
Earl, 00:02
When independence for Quebec and the Western Provinces come. The gentlemen-like behaviour ( especially from Central Canada ) displayed on this site ( with regards to our election ) will cease. Some predict foreign Peace-Keepers; and amazingly, no Canadians to participate this time around. Prime Minister Chretien is sleep walking towards this end, this last term, and I see no indication of change for the next - it is just a matter of when. Canadians do not display outward aggression because Ottawa & the Prime Minister command it. Do not speak up on Quebec issues etc. As we walk to the poles today - we Canadians all have a sign pinned to our backs saying

“Global Village Idiots!”

Diane Francis, a writer for the Financial Post said at a speech 5 years ago in Vancouver - “Convert your money to Marks, S Francs, or US$ for asset protection from Canadian instability” ( Our former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney has a Swiss acount. ) I think she should have encluded gold among the currences. Today I do not see any change in her advice.

On this day I wish ALL Canadians/Canadiens well.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 22:29
TED @alexaheadquarters>(@alexaheadquarters):
Tarnished ( 22:09 ) And I'm damn proud of it!!!...We want more hand outs and we want em NOW!...Canada owes us...big time! can only push us around so much and then we SNAP!....crackle and POP!...WE got the right to put food on our we can become even fatter lazy pigs!...

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 22:29
Roebear @oshaclass>(@oshaclass):
D.A. If it makes you feel any better I'm still scraping bear doo-doo out of my vibrams from my jumping in with both feet back on the 10th. And as I said the month before I'm holding not folding. I have the feeling lately that I am missing something going on now ( besides brains, timing, some paper$ and the last suckers rally! ) . Anyone else?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 22:09
tarnished Ding dong Dinghy>(Ding dong Dinghy):
TED: Your part of the world just made our contry a little pinker...
What are ya doin at them Cape Bretton parties?
You should have the bottle of chloriform out, hand cuffs and
some video's on how the economy really runs.
At least Alexa lives near you!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 22:07
panda @Oh.Canada>(@Oh.Canada):
What gives up North? Dow Jones reports Canadian Dollar falling on election results. Gold is up 20 cents. What are you guys doing up there?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 21:50
Prospector @Cascadia>(@Cascadia):
Selby 00:15

British Columbian ( and Albertans ) have only one choice this election - Reform. It is by no means a good one but in the current system we find ourselves it is the only viable alternative. PC/Lib/NDP seats just go towards the Central Canadian establishment and any discent or voicing of interests from out here have been consistently silenced. BC in the past 30 years has come out consistently against the ruling Ottawa government. Even with Mulroney’s land slide - we were the only hold-outs. The NDP were our voice until it was hijacked by the politically correct and now it has become Reform. We know the Canadian federal system and senate were always stacked against us from the beginning. The old Upper and Lower Canadian just had to look at the dilution of power of New England ( and it succession movement 1808 ) to see what would happen if God-forbid the North West Territories ( Western provinces ) where incorporated and made ammends to ensure this did not happen.

Western independence is just a matter of time. Secretly I hoped for Quebec succession to expedite our own from Ottawa. This election is just a blip in history and will mean very little ( except for a trip to New York to cut a bond to pay for it ) .

In the words of Tommy Douglas ( a Prairie “socialist” for our foreign friends )

“We will not stop until we have built Jerusalem!”.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 21:46
Bob @...what's this ! Another Falling Sky theory !>(@...what's this ! Another Falling Sky theory !):
Ranji: The post was long and filled with errors of fact and assumption.
1 ) References to Italia's public debt is way off in terms of quantity and percentage of GDP.

2 ) The ratio between the real economy ( of manufacturered goods ) and the financial economy ( paper flow ) is not relevant. Inflation is relevent.

3 ) The reason why we never heard of the report authors - see 1 ) and 2 ) above.

Cheers...try again rookie

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 21:32
Ranji, thanks for the lengthy post. Pretty sobering thoughts to think upon.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 21:31
Byron @ Bright Spot:>(@ Bright Spot:):
One bright spot for the XAU today was that it closed just at ( above ) the 50 Moving Average. See

I'll take what I can get.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 21:24
GFD Simplicity>(Simplicity):
BT fans should note the comments made by SimpleMan ( ) at 18:59. He is somehow linked with BT making a few comments in the past. His most recent one on Thurs 20:58 preceeded a major spike on the comex the next day.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 21:09
WW @New England>(@New England):
Looks like the shift to the left in europe did not help metals but helped $. The initial response will not continue/ clearly US Financial circles are not happy with threats to integrity of Euro. Probably because it will help gold eventually and that is the immediate enemy of the capital flows to US because of US reserve currency status. How are the Canadian elections going?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 21:07
I am going to be in Nashville next week ( 7th to 11th ) . Are there any Kitco regulars in the area?

If so, E-Mail me ( Reify will vouch for me )

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 21:03
APH ))))))))))))(((((((((((((((>())))))))))))((((((((((((((():
FIBO - Tomorrow could be a decent up day. If it is I still think wave C would still be in force. I assume you're using tick or hourly charts. I find using intraday charts on Elliott Wave to be misleading, I'd rather use the weekly then the daily and as a last resort the hourly to get a perspective of the market. Besides the gap at 97 is a weekly gap a very compelling target for a weak market.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 20:57
Ranji ranji@not_yet_goldbug>(ranji@not_yet_goldbug):

All: Hello, This is my first post on this forum. I have been following the discussions on this site for
about 6 months now. No, you have not yet made me a gold bug.
But for some time now I was waiting for some comment in this forum about a report on how to
handle the inevitable full-blown financial collapse. But to my surprise it looks like none of you have heard
about it. So I have typed in the news report below, taken from the March 28th 1997 issue of India Abroad, an
Indian ethnic newspaper published from New York and several other cities. The Executive Intelligence
Review ( mentioned below ) has a web site at but they do
not post their articles there. Also take a look at
I find the report interesting because some of the statistics are new ( to me ) and are offering solutions
to the coming crises. ( The reporter is Indian and writing for an Indian ethnic paper. So some of the later
details are more about India. )
Mr. Vronsky, if you want more detail you will have to contact the institutes mentioned below.


New York Mar 28th 1997- A report by a prestigious think tank has warned of an impending world economic
crisis and has suggested the creation of a global infrastructural “land bridge” for a return to economic
growth, in which it foresees a key role to China and to a lesser extent India.
The land bridge would be based on a high-speed rail network linking 60 cities and more than 40
“The world economy, with the exception of China, is faced with an accelerating collapse of
industrial capacity” that “could trigger a chain reaction of stock market crashes and banking crises in most
western countries”, the Washington - based Executive Intelligence Review ( EIR ) said in a report last week.
Once the process started, it said, vaporization of the international financial system could follow
“within a matter of days.”
The dismantling of the industrial base in most countries has resulted in massive unemployment and
social upheaval, a situation resulting from the fact that a majority of the present $2 trillion worth of daily
foreign exchange transactions in the world market has virtually no connection to the production or trade in
material goods, according to the EIR report, a copy of which was made available to India Abroad.
Citing figures, the report titled “The Eurasian Land-Bridge: The New Silk Road” said that in 1970,
international foreign exchange trading corresponded to approximately six times the amount of trade in
material goods.
Today, foreign exchange trade was more than 60 times the total value of imports and exports in the
world market.
While describing in particular the growth of the U.S. economy, among other Western countries, as
purely “fictitious”, it cited an example, saying the present trade in real commodities markets makes up less
than 50 percent of futures transactions in the United States compared with the 98-percent futures trade in
agriculture products and metals in 1973.
“There has been an explosive growth worldwide of purely financial futures trade based on interest
rates, currency trade and stock indices and the latest phase is characterized by the growth of fictitious
capital in the form of the financial instruments known as ‘derivatives’,” the report said.
In what the report described as a dramatic increase in government debt all over the world, it said the
world’s physical economy has been stagnating or even declining since the 1970’s.
Citing more examples of what it described as the “utter bankruptcy of the international finance and
monetary system,” the report said the public and private indebtedness of the U.S. as a percentage of its gross
national product ( GNP ) was 29 percent in 1970 but has now risen to 50 percent; the public debt of Sweden
is currently $175 billion, or 90 percent of its gross domestic product ( GDP ) while that of Italy $112.2
billion or 112 percent of its GDP.
“The productive bases of the countries are being sucked to death by the effect of this massive debt
accumulation which is causing farms and industries and even entire governments to shut down,” said Leni
Rubinstein of the Washington-based Schiller Institute, an associate of EIR.
Rubinstein, who heads the China bureau at Schiller and is one of the authors of the EIR report,
told India Abroad that a new initiative by the Chinese government that has come to be known as the policy
of “The New Silk Road,” in reference to the ancient trade routes between East and West, had laid the
foundation of an economic turnaround.
“The governments of Europe and Asia should agree on an integrated infrastructure program, which
connects the industrial centers of Europe and Asia with the population centers in South and Southeast Asia
through development corridors,” she said.
The central aspect of the proposed infrastructural program, Rubinstein explained , was a Eurasian
network of high -speed trains for transport of people and goods , in which three main lines connect about 60
big cities with each other.
“With the aid of the most modern technology, the rail network as well as energy and
communications system will extend the process of rapid economic development now occurring in China, to
the whole of Eurasia, “ the EIR report said.
Not only would this forced development of infrastructure drastically increase the productivity of
the entire region, but the planned investments would themselves have a positive effect on employment and
production in important sectors of the capital goods industry, Rubinstein said.
The Europe-Asia continental bridge will link up more than 40 countries and regions, which will
account for 22 percent of all countries of the world and cover 39.7 million square kilometers, equivalent to
26.6 percent of the total land area, with a population of 2.2 billion, the EIR report said.
In addition plans are also afoot to connect this land bridge to Japan and the U.S.
“The building of the Eurasian land bridge as the cornerstone for similar infrastructure and
economic programs for Africa, Australia and the Americas is the only viable method to bringing global
economic development at parity,” the report said, adding that it was particularly in the strategic interest of
the U.S to take the initiative.
“China is already leading the way with massive investment in infrastructure and India with its
already well rounded industrial and scientific technical base could follow soon,” Rubinstein said. But,
while quoting the report which described India as a second “giant” in Asia, she said the country’s chronic
inadequacy of basic infrastructure may not allow India to function as a prime locomotive for Eurasian
“India urgently requires large - scale modernization and expansion of its long overdue problems for
river control and water management,” the report said.
“The recent positive developments in multilateral relations among India, China, Iran and Russia
and countries of the region reflect a growing orientation toward mutually beneficial economic cooperation ,
in which the land bridge is a central element,” the report said, adding “India’s integration into the Eurasian
land bridge system would mean a potentially enormous gain for the economy of Eurasia as a whole.”
The report also addressed the issue of funds for creating the Eurasian land bridge, estimated to cost
$100 trillion in the next 10 years.
“The development of the land bridge corridors and similar projects will be financed through a
combination of state investments, credit generation on the national level, and international loans directed
primarily toward technology transfer,” it said. Also, it said, the development would require a global debt
reorganization, the establishment of fixed-parity exchange rates, and a new set of trade and tariff

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 20:56
Paul Friend of Duke of Earl>(Friend of Duke of Earl):
Earl ( Duke of ) I am ready to bury the hatchet. I will retract my statement
if you agree to spend at least $5 for the wine you are imbibing. Whatever
it is you're drinking now is making you mean and intolerable.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 20:47
tarnished @Dinghy>(@Dinghy):
TED: I got yer mail, I don't see it here though. Yup, I mailed him.
I just caught word that Don Cherrys' wife, Rose, died....I wanted to know what his problems were, but I'm sorry to have heard this.
Put's a damper on the rest of the cup.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 20:42
BARNEY I'm asking too!>(I'm asking too!):
Reify: Or anyone, Do you know what the price of cobalt is going
these days. Also, where can I follow it.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 20:42
APH ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]][[[[[[[[[[[[[[>(]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]][[[[[[[[[[[[[[):
Savage - I bought the June 105 puts. The plan ( subject to change at anytime ) is to sell the puts when the XAU nears 97 and buy the 95 calls. Could you go a little deeper into your strategy on puts and calls.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 20:40
Internet’s favorite economist, George S. Cole, sees DOW peaking in late summer - anticipates start of secular gold bull in same period. See Cole’s Market Insights - YOU MUST RELOAD:

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 20:35
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
Mark continues to decline tonight...EBN GOLD down a nickle...Hi Tarnished
...MGraves:Thanks fer info on's Keith?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 20:33
APH: might the A-B-C correction already be done as follows:

Leg A: 108.74 to 101.10= 7.64 ( 3.82 times 2 )

Leg B: 101.10 to 103.98= 2.88 ( 288 a fibo # )

Leg C: 103.98 to 99.32= 4.66

Leg C is .609 of Leg A ( very close to the .618 golden ratio )

Leg B is exactly .618 of leg C

Leg B is .377 of Leg A ( very close to the .382 fibonacci ratio )

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 20:27
ET $@Rhodium>($@Rhodium):
I just had a look at the long term chart of rhodium and I find it very puzzling that it didn't conform to the chart pattern of other metals.
Does anyone know why? Rhodium traded at over $5000 in 90/91 and is now trading at $290. Is it worth buying a coin or two at this level?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 20:27
plaintalker @ home in FL>(@ home in FL):
Bernie: North or South YUBA? I have walked the north from Sierra City to its confluence with slate creek, panning and prospecting, spectacular scenery.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 20:03
more to read for reference,

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 19:51
new look at world gold council...go to:
happy trading...

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 19:34

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 19:31
vronsky A Chicken in Every Speculator's Pot by Michael Belkin/Strategic Investment>(A Chicken in Every Speculator's Pot by Michael Belkin/Strategic Investment):
Globally acclaimed Analyst sees “Gold skyrocketing when leveraged players are forced to buy back their forward sales. Margin calls will cause price to feed on itself higher. See Editorials Hit Reload:

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 19:30
Reify @here ya are>(@here ya are):
MURRAY- ask & ye shall--

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 19:24

Anybody out there know Deaner's Website ? I was using his XAU projections
with pretty decent results till my hard drive crashed and I lost all my
bookmarks. Lucky Kitco was one of the few, along with Gold Eagle, I had
written down. If anyone knows, I would certainly appreciate your post.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 19:23
To All:

The markets weighed in today with their appraisal of the chances for EMU. Contravening all rules of decency they did exactly the opposite of what I had expected. Biggest casualty, DM, biggest winner ( relatively ) Italian bonds. The thinking is something like this. Now that the French electorate has spoken all countries of the EU will be included in the first round of the glorious EMU regardless of their fiscal situation. The German people who have for centuries been subjugated under the thumb of the imperial French will once again bow, scrape and jetison their currency in favor of detente.

How could I have missed the obvious? How can I be so foolish as to sell another load of Italian bonds tomorrow? Perhaps it has something to do with the planets. Maybe someone in Italy has learned how to extract palladium from seawater. Yes, this would explain a lot....

I have had a bad day.

Tort: Could you perhaps supply a bit of humor? Maybe even a double?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 19:09
panda @>(@):
nailz @ 17:13 -- I've used a QuoTrek. The only requirement is that you get good reception at your location. If you don't have good reception, you'll drop ticks like crazy and you won't even know it! There is a reception indicator on the units. The quote info provided is; Bid, Ask, Bid size, Ask size, Trade size, Volume, Price change, High, and Low for the day. You can also get news services on the units such as FWN and Dow Jones. The only caveat is that you MUST have good reception! One draw back that comes to mind is that quotes are only updated as they happen. In other words, if you turn the unit on at 10:01 AM and your stock traded at 9:59 AM you wouldn't see it until the ticker loop 'cycled' through. Every time a trade happens, they interrupt the ticker loop for the new trade. The result is this. It takes them about 25 minutes to cycle all the stocks without any interruptions, with normal trading it can take up to 45 minutes to update an infrequently traded stock, unless it gets traded of course. If you happen to be watching an active stock or index, the unit will constantly be beeping at you. You can turn the beeper on or off. You also can set alerts based on volume or price. Hope I didn't confuse you too much!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 19:03
TED @canada>(@canada):
Auric ( 17:08 ) Yer damn right it'd be limit down...Preacher ( 17:59 ) GOOD ONE!
While we're at it let's string up Johnny Cockroach,F.Lee Bailey, and Sharpero too.....

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 18:59
Gold will reach $872.00 BY first week of July, 1998. Remmember this.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 18:41
Savage (?):
APH: re your 16:59...what kind of XAU puts did you buy?...Deep in the the the 97 level? Will you reverse these or sell? ( one of my favorite strategies is to reverse a put at a turnaround....then, the future is no risk )

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 18:17
George S. Cole Russell 2000>(Russell 2000):
Tortfeasor: The Russell 2000 is the most widely followed small stock index. After many months of dismal performance it has taken off with great force. I can see it going up another 15 or 20% in the next few months.

Of course, this pales compared with what the gold stocks will do when the time is right. The 1993 bull move will be greatly outpaced as many issues triple or quadruple.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 18:07
Bernie Gold Found!>(Gold Found!):
Greetings to all....Just took a hike on the Yuba River, Northern CA, beautiful day. Decided if I can not make money trading gold, I will try my hand at panning for some. I found gold! By my calculation if I spend an additional 600 hours on the river breaking my back, I will have one ( 1 ) ounce of gold! Well, it was a nice day anyway.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 17:59
Preacher another race>(another race):
Tort, Ted: let's hang both McVey and Paul Berardo in a single event. We'll see who pulls up lame... Tort: liked the afternoon joke. needed that.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 17:42
Tortfeasor Up for Air>(Up for Air):
I'm up for air. George S. Cole, is the Russell 2000 an index of Small Cap stocks? I confess more total ignorance here. The verdict for McVey was better than he deserved. He should be put in front of a firing squad and then have the firing squad graze him a few times before going for the gusto.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 17:13
ALL.....Have been AWOL since Sat...... If I missed any posts for me, please let me know....APH..That is the level on the XAU that I am looking to get in on....SHORT BULL...Much better..THANKS....Doggone it....I am looking to add levereged paper and also going out of town for a couple of weeks....As you know, those two don't go together....Anybody use those little portable quote machines If so, which ones and how do you like them....

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 17:08
Auric @Gallows humor>(@Gallows humor):

Ted; Re OJ: That would be a limit down move!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 16:59
APH ...............................>(...............................):
Be prepared - It now looks like the XAU could hit the 97 objective this week ( 5/12 21:28 ) ( 5/30 21:12 ) . Over the last 7 years, the Xau has been down 5 of those years between the Fri before Memorial Day and the second Fri after memorial Day. Four of those years the XAU was down between 7-11 points. This year 10 points down from the Fri before Memorial Day would put it at the 97 area. From the recent highs we have done an A wave and a B wave we are now in wave C, if A=C which is common C will end near 97. A Gann line off the recent lows comes in this week at the 97 area. When the market hits 97 which could be intra day a good low risk entry for options, stocks and gold mutual funds will be at hand. Be prepared. I bought xau puts this morning.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 16:57
George s. Cole Fidelity>(Fidelity):
Fidelity gold funds held up very well today considering steep slide in XAU and HUI. FSAGX down about 0.7% and FSPMX off about 0.4%. XAU plunged 2.5% and HUI 1.7%.

Russell 2000 jumped nearly 0.7% today despite 40 point drop in the Dow.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 16:56
Telecaster: If you have any programm for technical analyzing draw
the goldprice from 1991 to today. Now attach a 28-days-RSI or a 45-days-momentum. You'll find that the during the last two downmoves to the 340-level ( last weeks ) the indicator didn't come down together with the price, in the same time it's developing a triangle, that indicates we'll see an outbreak 'til the end of june the latest. The direction of this outbreak will tell us where gold is heading to - the bullish divergence ( you can see many of them at every chart but thisone is very clear ) improves the chances that we see an upmove to 75:25 as I understand it.
PS: If have no charting program send me your email-adress to and I'll send you my latest analysis tomorrow ( Its 11 pm now at my place and I'm still in the office ) .

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 16:50
TED @canada>(@canada):
Comex Gold down 1.20 is not bad considering dollar strength...but can't say the same about the XAU...The German Mark was down against almost all other currencies and took the biggest hit of all the European countries..Thank you France.....The NDP is going to REVIVE the fishing industry...HAHAHA...and the Cape Breton coal ( high Sulfer ) industry..HE HAW

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 16:41
TED @tort>(@tort):
Tort: Once again you have brought some levity to a GRIM situation..Bravo Tort!...Too bad OJ couldn't have gotten the same jury as McVeigh...Hang em the same time on network TV...Think of the ratings they'd get ....GO JAZZ....

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 16:27
IanD elections>(elections):
Front: Here's my guess
Liberals 168
Reform 62
Block 48
PC 15

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 16:24
Tortfeasor Joke for the afternoon>(Joke for the afternoon):
Ted, to show you I am not a bad sport about losing money, I am going to post the following and then get back to amending this trust which is trying my powers of draftmanship.

When Albert Einstein died, he met three New Zealanders in the queue outside the Pearly Gates. To pass the time, he asked what were their IQs. The first replied 190. Wonderful, exclaimed Einstein. We can discuss the contribution made by Ernest Rutherford to atomic physics and my theory of general relativity. The second answered 150. Good, said Einstein. I look forward to discussing the role of New Zealand's nuclear-free legislation in the quest for world peace. The third New Zealander mumbled 50. Einstein paused, and then asked, So what is your
forecast for the budget deficit and the prime interest rate for next year?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 16:22
TED @canada>(@canada):
Tort: Do I detect a hint of negativism in yer tone? You should have been in Oil Service stocks today!...XAU @101.75 down 2.56...

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 16:17
Is there a skunk on the internet or do the gold, silver and platinum markets just stink to high heaven?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 15:57
George s. Cole small caps>(small caps):
Earl: The big cap stocks are indeed losing momentum, but the small cap stocks are gaining momentum. I don't think this market will peak until the small caps have gone up a lot more.

CNBC reported today that Goldman Sachs guru Abbey Cohen reiterated her bullish stance re: small cap stocks in a conference call this morning.

I still say that gold will be the very last thing to move; probably this summer. But once it gets going we will all be astounded at how high it ultimately climbs.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 15:32
TED @jin>(@jin):
JIN: The mailman is knocking at your door!...How will Asia ever be able to compete against the Socialists in Europe...HAHAHAHA...

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 15:06
Front @upandatum>(@upandatum):


Every time I read your messages, they say to RELOAD ......

Since we now have a strict gun control law in Canada, does that mean that you're support REFORM and the gun lobby? I'll be glad to vote twice if that'll help change things a bit !


Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 14:56
George Cole: I was judging by a simple momentum indicator in my real time software. Later today I'll post a Dow or SP chart from another source.... The problem is my real time software is DOS based so the only way I can post a chart from it by printing and scanning. ....

Have also been thinking about your continuing thread on worldwide changes in political philosophy. I think you are absolutely correct. For very real human reasons. ... Will respond on both later. BBL

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 14:25
Byron @ The Public Library>(@ The Public Library):
TVX Gold, Inc. has already traded 1,336,600 million shares -1/8. No news. Anybody have any info why such a high volumn?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 14:00
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
XAU down 1.10....Cherokee: Will do Bro!....Just back from 5 hours of chainsawin in the woods and got my first Black Fly bite of the year...must have been a scout...could the troops be far behind? Comex Gold down .70 ( not bad considering the strength of the dollar ) but Platinum down 3.20 and Palladium down 4.85...good old profit takin....

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 13:59
Here is the AP article that had references to Anthrax:

Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK ( AP ) -- At this moment, militant Islamic groups labeled by
the State Department as terrorist organizations -- Hezbollah, Palestine
Islamic Jihad,
Hamas and others -- operate quietly within U.S. borders from New York
to San Diego.
These groups collect U.S. dollars to send to their cells overseas.
They have used U.S. addresses to buy U.S. equipment, U.S. Internet
sites to communicate
and U.S. universities and foundations to meet and plan.
Almost every one of these groups has a presence in the United
States today, says John O'Neill, who headed the FBI's
counter-terrorism unit until last ye
ar and now heads those efforts for the FBI in New York. A lot of these
groups now have the capability and the support infrastructure in the
United States to
attack us here if they choose to.
The United States -- seen as the Great Satan by many Islamic
radicals -- has become a key part of their terrorist network.
Bitter Middle East rivalries of Sunni vs. Shiite and Iranians vs.
Arabs have eased into America's melting pot. And from this melding
arises a web of shift
ing alliances, faceless killers, money men and transient bases.
The issue is a difficult one for law enforcement officials and
lawmakers. Nearly all of this nation's estimated 6 million Muslims are
law-abiding citizens
, many seeking the American Dream.
There are fanatics in every religion and as long as they do not
carry their fanaticism to a terrorist act, there is nothing wrong in
their beliefs, says
Seif Ashmawy, the Egyptian-American publisher of the Voice of Peace, a
monthly publication on Muslim issues.
But there is a very small minority that wish to impose their ideas
by force. Those are the people we should worry about.
Take this scenario:
A Hezbollah terrorist tapes a lightbulb to the track of a New York
City subway station. Minutes later, a passing train smashes the bulb,
releasing spores
of anthrax, one of the deadliest toxins known to humanity.
Within hours, subway ventilation fans have circulated the poison
throughout the system, and people begin dying -- perhaps 100,000,
perhaps more.
The death toll would be horrific. You could cripple the country,
says Pentagon analyst Peter Probst, whose classified report Terror
2000 identifies th
is and similar scenarios. And you can't bury the victims. You have to
burn them. There would be funeral pyres throughout the city.
A terrorist attack with anthrax -- or Sarin gas, or a World Trade
Center-style bomb dirtied with enough nuclear material to make parts
of the city uninh
abitable -- is almost inevitable, a 1996 Senate report warned.
Defense Secretary William Cohen said much the same at a conference
on terrorism last month.
This scenario of a nuclear, biological or chemical weapon in the
hands of a terrorist cell or rogue nation is not only plausible, it's
really quite real,
he warned.
The United States already has seen such work -- the 1993 World Trade
Center bombing that killed six and injured 1,000. The group included
Islamic radicals
from Palestine, Sudan and Egypt as well as U.S. converts.
The same group had planned to bomb other New York City landmarks.
The alleged bomb-builder, the mysterious Ramzi Yousef, plotted to blow
up a dozen U.S. a
irliners in a single day -- and practiced in the Philippines with a
nitroglycerine charge that killed an airline passenger.
In Saudi Arabia, the FBI is still trying to unravel the possible
alliance of Iran, Shiite Hezbollah, militant Sunni radicals and the
world's leading finan
cier of terror, Osama bin Laden, in two bombings that killed 24 U.S.
soldiers and two Indians.
Here in the United States, authorities fret about sleeper cells of
Hezbollah terrorists awaiting orders from Tehran, or zealots acting on
the influence
of Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman, the blind Egyptian cleric and religious
leader to World Trade Center conspirators.
Rahman still exhorts followers -- now from a federal prison.
U.S.-based Hamas activists arrested in Israel told their
interrogators they had shadowed prominent Jews in the Chicago area.
Such terrorists are expanding their networks, improving their
skills and sophistication, and working to stage more spectacular
attacks, warns acting CIA
Director George Tenet.
To stage attacks in the United States and elsewhere, Islamic
extremists are making full use of U.S. banks, telecommunications and
freedom of assembly.
--Cash. In January 1995, President Clinton froze $800,000 held in
accounts the government said were controlled by terrorist groups. Most
experts believe t
hat is only a drop in the bucket.
Israel accuses Virginia businessman Mousa Abu Marzook, whom U.S.
authorities expelled to Jordan this month, of financing Hamas terrorist
cells. An FBI age
nt testified that millions of dollars passed through Marzook's
Coupon and food stamp fraud by a World Trade Center bomber, the Abu
Nidal group and others allegedly sent as much as $100 million to the
Middle East. Hero
in trafficking in the United States has partly financed the world's
deadliest terrorist group, the Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK.
A network of U.S.-based Islamic foundations is under investigation
by the U.S. Customs Service to determine if they passed money to Middle
East terrorists.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 13:50
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
Kind of curious as to whether August gold will see 348.50 or 344.5 today. Ideas?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 13:32
cherokee @let's-have-em>(@let's-have-em):

ok, where are the pertinent links you alluded to.
knowledge is power, and this is a place of power.

ted-- quit abusing the seagull guano.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 13:23
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
The grains are looking weaker than they did Friday though corn hasn't proven it yet. But if you see anything lees than 271.5 July corn, it'll probably mean it.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 12:48
Thanks for the explanation.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 12:39
bw Re: Bob... Paula>(Re: Bob... Paula):
They say the oj trail was worth many hundreds of millions to the us economy. Can you imagine the potential for the Paula Jones action? Its got to be billions, if handled correctly. I would start by televising the discovery process. My lawyer friends tell me all of bill's past sex life is fair game for discovery. Since that includes every day of his life you can see the potential. Perhaps we could have multiple channels to handle the volume. Now as you know bill is rumored to have mixed sex and drugs quite frequently. Does this open up his drug use to discovery? Well you can see where this line leads. Seriously bill's true genius has been somehow evading any indepth questioning of his many crimes. I would not doubt he will evade the truth once again. But perhaps not.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 12:33
telecaster @>(@):
Bob A.- the plan is to mark to 60% of market value. Marking to market would leave their reserve base vulnerable to a drop in the price of gold.

Gery- Can you elaborate for us on the bullish divergences you see? Sounds very interesting. thanks

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 12:19
George s. Cole gold action>(gold action):
Earl; Could elaborate further on price/momentum gap you see developing in the overall market? Exactly how do you define momentum.

Gold's dismal action action today does not surprise me. The yellow metal will not move in a major until the smart money concludes that the financial bull has gone as far as it possibly can. Only then will there be enough INVESTMENT DEMAND ( as opposed to short-covering purchases ) to send the yellow stuff sharply higher despite western CB selling.

On a more pleasant note, the small caps continue to act very well. Looks like they can go quite a bit higher before the market peaks this summer.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 12:13
cyclist bull market>(bull market):
Eldorado:If platinum can take out the 420 area in the next 4 weeks,we got ourselves a bullmarket in the precious metal confirmed.It is hard to make
a timing judgement with gold ( free market mechanism is being surpressed ) .
Platinum buy and sell signals are excellent in buying and selling abx.
BTW Platinum upmove could be to the 450 area.On the chart silver looks sick.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 12:08
To all!
Did you realize that the spot-gold-prize is developing a short-term-Triangle combined with bullish divergences in almost all long- and midterm indicators. From my point of view it's almost sure that we'll see higher gold prices in the next few weeks. What amuses me is that just one week ago almost everone here was bullish now sentiment turned rapidly. It's not realy clever to believe that gold or the other metalls will immediatly react to political and economic situations like the french elections or the german gold-discussion.
Hope I'm right

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 12:07
Short Bull @Noon e.t.>(@Noon e.t.):
The stock market made a nice follow-through high on the opening which
was a fabulous sell back to unchanged. I never tried that but I did
buy the dip. I caught a $300 move in a mini-value line, looking for a
noon dip to maybe try it from the long side again from lower prices.
Platinum is off its lows. Silver is up, like it often does after a big
sell-off. I am looking to buy silver today for a scalp if I can get it
around unchanged.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 12:03
SILVER: An enigma wrapped in an anomaly. Analyst Butler’s 5/29/97 insightful study is a necessary read by all. See Guest Guru Ted Butler - CLICK RELOAD in Gold Digest page:

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 12:02
Tortfeasor Thanks 2 weeks>(Thanks 2 weeks):
Thanks 2 weeks. Sometimes a joke is basically gross but funny. If it can be salvaged I will do so. Otherwise I'm not going to post stuff I feel is gross or offensive because I think the people on this site are classy people who don't need R+ or X rated stuff thrown at them.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 11:59
yellowdog @EMU down the tubes?>(@EMU down the tubes?):
Well, now we know: should the EMU collapse, the flight to quality will be in the US Dolllar, not the precious metals

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 11:50
George Cole: So far it looks like another day in support of your thesis. The dollar is up, across the board. Precious metals down, across the board. Gold is threatening the lower side of its short term channel. And there is no relief in sight. It really is difficult to build a case for gold remaining above 340 - short term. Certainly not on a technical basis. ..... The only positive indicator for gold is that the momentum has been rising progressively higher in recent weeks. Hardly compelling.

On the general market; Oldman has said that the final top in general equities will be marked by a divergence between price and momentum. It is happening now. For the past several weeks, prices have been rising and yet momentum has been declining. If he is correct the end may be approaching.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 11:29
2weeks Tort_you're_a_class_guy>(Tort_you're_a_class_guy):
As a would-be gentleman I prefer gentle phrasings over the coarse and crude utterings of the street. As such, kiss and caress is one of the nicest euphemisms I've encountered. Thanks. And I am speaking as one who has been getting kissed and caressed by the gold market here lately.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 11:25
LSteve @accumulate>(@accumulate):
The brokers comment the other day that the CBs have a standing sell order of $355/oz. seemed to confirm what we already suspected. My question is, could the CBs become motivated to lower the sell price, and what would motivate then to do so. Also conversely what would motivate them to raise the standing sell price. It just seems to me that eventually everyone is going to realize that gold is being held at an artificially low price and that this presents a historical buying opportunity. Accumulate and hold the physical!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 10:49
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
cyclist -- You could be right, but on the other hand, gold and silver didn't go up with the P metals so it could be just as likely that they won't go down with them. Especially to that extent. But I certainly agree that if those kind of prices are seen, it'll certainly make a ver very nice buying opportunity!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 10:35
Front @upandatum>(@upandatum):

Canadians :


Liberals = 155
Reform = 78
PC = 19
Block = 38
NDP = 11

Anyone else?


Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 10:31
Bob A revalue>(revalue):
I've read that Germany is considering a revaluation of their gold reserves. Can anyone explain to me how this is done, what benchmark could they use other than the market price? do they simply value at the free mkt price?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 10:20
cyclist platinum@weekly>(platinum@weekly):
FWIW,looking at the platinum weekly,we should test the 375.This could
bring gold down to the 330 level and silver to the 4.30 / 4.40.
This could be the best opportunity of the year.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 09:47
Internet’s favorite economist, George S. Cole, sees DOW peaking in late summer - anticipates beginning of secular gold bull in same period. See Cole’s Market Insights - YOU MUST RELOAD:

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 08:05
jin check your e mail....thanks>(check your e mail....thanks):
MORNING TO YOU !please check your mail box!
looooooong nite......cant wait!
happy trading,good luck!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 08:04
George S. Cole $340>($340):
GERY: I'm not predicting a dip under $340; just observing that the technical action remains very poor. Unless this changes, a dip below $340 wouldn't surprise me. The oddds of such a drop are fifty-fifty in my opinion.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 07:58
TED @chainsawing>(@chainsawing):
EBN Gold down .35 and Silver up 3 cents...Off ta the woods!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 07:51
Bernatz de ventadorn Le_fou@zee_partie>(Le_fou@zee_partie):
For Monsiour Earl.
Ah appreciate your support vairy much. Ah would
adore to go to zee pairtie of monsiour Peppino. Also
ah find zat he speek zee engleesh pairfectment. Ah
love to leesten to heem. But pleeze, we must also
invite zee little monsiour wackair from zee varmint
region so zat we can be amused abd keel ourselves
laughing at hees crazee antics. Keep up zee good works.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 07:45
TED @tort>(@tort):
Tort: We missed ya buddy...good one!hahaha...Go ALEXA GO....TO HELL!.....
The Bretoners are probably rushin to cast their votes for the freebie party also known as the NDP...What can you GIVE us....YOU owe US...WE have the right to put food on the table......It's time to put the small guy before the large corporations....The whinning drivel goes on and on and on....

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 07:37
French CAC has totally turned around and is now up 8+...Friday is the big one...the employment report!...Tort: your missle just landed!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 07:30
Tortfeasor Joke of the morn>(Joke of the morn):
Gold and silver looked pretty sick on Friday. I think I agree with George S. Cole. This market is fairly flacid and could dip a bit yet. Good morning Ted, good to see you up and at them. Here's my paltry offering of tripe for the day.

A guy goes into a restaurant/lounge wearing a shirt open at the collar and is met by a bouncer who tells him he must wear a necktie to gain

So the guy goes out to his car and he looks around for a necktie and
discovers that he just doesn't have one. He sees a set of jumper cables in his trunk. In desperation he ties these around his neck, manages to
fashion a fairly acceptable looking knot and lets the ends dangle free. He goes back to the restaurant and the bouncer carefully looks him over for a few minutes and then says, Well, OK, I guess you can come in - just don't start anything.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 07:29
M.Graves @ Valley>(@ Valley):
Ted : Alex doesn't know what she's going to do, she just contradicts everyone else. Jean is a true politician , he talks out of the left side of his mouth and the man I call Charades looks like he just recieved a sex change. Presto's the man this year!!!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 07:15
George s. Cole: What makes you believe that gold will go under 340? I think this should better ot happen because with such a move gold would leave a widespread longterm-trendchannel.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 07:10
TED @mainlander>(@mainlander):
MGraves: Why NOT ALEXA?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 07:06
M.Graves @ Valley>(@ Valley):
Morn'in Ted : Voting day !!! I think I'll take my green pencil and give Presto - changeo a try !!! George s.Cole : I still think that the fund managers will drive the next correction. We just need a political trigger to get them started. Once this happens, it won't matter what the cb's or the emu do, the perception is all that's needed.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 06:54
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
EBN Gold+Silver headed in the right direction...Gold now down only .35 and Silver up 4 cents...Interesting article on the front page of The Wall Street Urinal about Socialists victory ( ? ) in France...
Socialists 275
Conservatives 247
Commies 39

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 06:42
George s. Cole gold bull>(gold bull):
Reify: Hope you are right that the turnaround is at hand, but I doubt it. Bullion's technical action remains very bad. Fair chance that $340 will be broken before the big bull begins. I do not expect bullion to begin a sustainable upmove until the stock market peaks for good -- give or take a few weeks. And my analysis indicates that the stock market will not peak until late summer.

Larry: You are correct -- there will be a considerable time lag between the new trend to the political left and its full impact on the gold price. Thatcher won in 1979 and Reagan in 1980, but the bull market in financial assets did not begin until August 1982.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 06:25
TED @mainlander>(@mainlander):
MGraves: Yer seagull just landed....thanks...

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 06:20
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
EBN Gold just went from down .80 to down .40 and Silver is up 3 cents as U.S. Dollar is strong against most other currencies.....with a noteable exception being the Pound Sterling and the Irish Punt....interesting....

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 04:42
Update @>(@):

Paris stocks off 2.4%

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 03:45
Steve (Perth - Western Australia)>(
WW: Our unions in Australia are getting clever. Hijack the Aussie Central Bank!
Interesting idea for US unions to take on the Fed!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 03:33
Auric Blowing a few bucks>(Blowing a few bucks):

Bob @ 03:08-- 700K eh? Now THAT is hyperinflation!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 03:29
Auric @Getting ready for some shut-eye>(@Getting ready for some shut-eye):

.- ) Just poked myself in the eye! Get it?
( Had to lighten up after my last post! )

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 03:17
Auric @Getting Hyper>(@Getting Hyper):

Earl, Eldorado: My take on default vs. inflation.
In an inflationary environment, in the initial
stages, at least, debt promises are honored, albeit
with debased dollars. Inflation has an insidious way
of getting out of control, and at some point,
crosses the line into hyperinflation. In a
hyperinflationary environment, I agree, there is not
much difference between that and default. If the Fed
somehow manages to have avoid hyperinflation then we
might have a half way decent future, with less
currency debasement. If Greenspan can do that, then
we should rename him Houdini! You certainly are
correct, what with derivatives, oil shocks, war,
etc., out there, the potential for massive, sudden
collapse is there. Either way, it makes good sense
to be as independent of Gov't promises as possible.
As our buddy Paul says, Buy Gold! : )

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 03:15
Pepino: Your gracious invitation is accepted on two conditions:
1. The ladies are pursued before the vino. I'm an old guy you know.
2. The invitation must include an endearing fellow from the Pyrenees. His name is Bernatz. He would add a dash of color to the proceedings.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 03:11

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 03:08
Bob @...History in the making>(@...History in the making):
At this time in US history evey hooker and lap dancer across this great continent is trying to figure out how Paula Jones is worth $700k for a
'blo' job she didn't give. O.K. boys, let's hear it one mo' time ...Glory glory allejuela..and the band kept marching on !


Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:54
Steve (Perth - Western Australia)>(
More on that Australian Gold Article...

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:52
Eldorado @G'nite>(@G'nite):
At this juncture, I'm calling it a night. BBL.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:51
Bob Italia !>( Italia !):
Pepino di Cortino: tu famalia con Pepino Sudecello ? Conusco la sudecello sempre vida a' Ed Sullivan Show vengo trente anna ja ?


Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:49
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Our currency is 'backed' by the full faith and credit of the government. Anybody have any idea how much faith and/or credit is left?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:43
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Auric -- I should add one more difference. Default would be an occurrance that would happen overnight whereas massive inflation would maybe allow them to continue the game for awhile longer. The end result would be the same: a collapsed/worthless currency.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:40
Pepino di Cortino From Italia>(From Italia):

You Guysa, you no never speeka about La Bella Italia.
We foola you, we all have a bunch of how you say, the
money, becausa we no pay the taxes and makea our own
All that I can reada here is about the Tedeschi, da
Frencha and the USA, and da colda place bei the US., and
da gold compani who lose the money, becausa they use to
mucha the salt.
Never, I hear abouta my Italia.
Den you hava da guy who calla himself WW. We no worry
about the Social Security likea him in Italia, we go back
to the MAMA and she giva us da raviolli, the spaghetti
and we drinka the vino and then become very happy.
Ima giva you all the invitazione to come to my pease in
the Dolomiti, so we can shoota the baloney over the gold
and chase the signoreigna's.
VIVA ITALIA an how you say, da bye.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:35
Auric: Any talk of making good on the trust funds is ultimately just that. Talk and nothing more. NO one will pay the taxes and increases in national productivity will never be high enough to remotely pick up the slack. In the end the trust funds will be just like all other govt promises. Broken. Perhaps then, folks will realize that it is far better to trust in yourself than your govt. Tough way to learn the lesson. .... but since I am nearing the age of entitlement, I find your views to have an endearing quality about them. ...... :- ) )

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:31
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Auric -- Actually, massive inflation is just about the same as outright default. The difference is minor. In the first case, you get paid in massively devalued dollars. In the second case, you may not get paid, or if you do, it's pennys or parts of pennys on the buck. Purchasing power per buck might essentially be near the same; I.E., next to nothing. Much of the difference will be in how much inflation there will be, and how the debt purchasers will view the 'scenario'! Comments?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:31
Savage zzzz>(zzzz):
'Nite Earl, Eldo, Anthy, et al

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:23
Anthrax @making sure you are alert>(@making sure you are alert):
I put Anthras in to make sure you picked it up! Oh well, at least you will be aware of any biological warfare possibilities if the Arabs go ahead with it.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:21
Auric @Legal Tenderness>(@Legal Tenderness):

Larry @ 01:26--Good points. Only three ways out of
the SS IOU's, at least that I can see. Cut
benefits-not bloody likely, look at France. Raise
the taxes to pay for it--Already paying about 16%
thats on top of Fed, State, Sales, Medicare etc.
Or..debase the currency. The scary thing is, the SS
situation is just one of many IOU's. These bills, as
you point out MUST be paid. I cannot see any way out
except to inflate, and then deal with the fiasco
that will result. Default is not an option.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:19
Savage: Sorry. I must develop a thicker skin. I fear I'm far too sensitive for this line of work. ..... :- ) )

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:19
Steve (Perth - Western Australia)>(
It seems we are now into showing off our tourist photo's now! Well, for a great start to the week, check out Western Australia's beautiful rugged scenery:
Also, check out the tourist site.
You can touch WILD Dolphins at Monkey Mia, Denham. ( Shark Bay )

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:14
Is there an echo here?: Had Paul known me personally, perhaps his choice of metaphors would have been entirely warranted but under these circumstances, hardly fitting for an exchange of views. Pesonal attacks, name calling and inappropriate metaphorical representations are never in season. IMO. ie, never confuse message and messenger.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:13
Savage ***>(***):
I wish there were a way you could just hit a button and bring up subsequent comments without downloading the whole days worth. Is there a way BART?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:06
Savage notation 2>(notation 2):
EARL: That was not your subconcious; it were I. ( trying to be funny )

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:05
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Earl -- Well, they certainly have made more people poor in this country! First by taking more taxes from those who work and put food in their own families' mouths, and then by perpetuating the conditions on those who are on welfare. What a rip!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 02:04
Earl notation>(notation):
EARL: I don't think that guy last night liked you. Had you eaten onions or something offensive for supper?.....and oh yes, buy gold.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:59
Eldo: I wouldn't mind except its an incestuous relationship. The poor and those who would pander to their needs - let us call them social activists - breed each other. The Poverty Programs are the most successful of any in our history. They have created and maintained the greatest levels of poverty in our history. Therefore they are successful. Eh? .... and of course we do need more administrators to feed off the suffering of these poverty stricken wretches. .... It is an infinite source of humor. Not the poverty but the rhetoric that surrounds it. If it did not enrich those with a social conscience, it would be even more amuzing. As it is, we must content our selves with mere humor. Speaking of humor, where is that guy Paul from last nite. The one whose list of metaphors is restricted to body openings.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:57
Savage (?):
ANTHRAS or ANTHRAX: What are YOU doing to be prepared?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:52
Anthras @not the CIA etc>(@not the CIA etc):
EWP: You can rest assured that Anthrax is NOT a journalist, nor with the CIA. She is a concerned citizen of the world, who is providing you with interesting web links for you to be aware, & prepared. If nothing occurs, that is fantastic. If it does....well you have been warned. My view is the more information the community has, the better prepared it will be. Also, if the Arabs wake up that the USA knows, they may not go ahead with the threat! Ever thought of that... SPEED!!!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:50
French elections near final results : The socialist party and its allied ( ecologists,... ) have not the majority of seats . They will need the Communist party to obtain that majority.Ok the socialists are pro-EMU but the communists are against EMU.Expect Paris Stock Exchange going down today !

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:48
Savage: Not to worry. Given their historic fecundity and a pronounced proclivity for exploiting same, we may rest assured that the expansion of the Kennedy genetic pool will someday soon outstrip old Joe's endowment. A few more lawsuits will only hasten the process. ...... Shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves - in three generations. .... As Limbaugh has been fond of saying: The problem with the Kennedys is in their genes ( jeans ) . They can't keep 'em on.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:40
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Earl -- As the poor shall always be with us, we shall also be doomed to suffer with socialists.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:32
Savage memory lane>(memory lane):
Anybody remember when a pundit asked Bobby this world of food shortages and overpopulation, Senator, what justifies you having 12 children?......Kennedy's reply, I can afford 'em.....No Kennedy need worry about social security or medicare....I submit gentlemen, we need to be ready for a day of unrest and perhaps worse. We can do that of course by our faith ( s ) , but also ( for our families ) to have our financial houses in order and posited on the most substantial base that we can find.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:29
WW: Forgive me for taking a jaded or cynical view here but I must ask the question. Does your law practice depend, in some material fashion, on work derived from SS or other government programs? A lawyer who expresses such concern for the downtrodden must have some well connected financial fish to be fried. These unrelenting expressions of outrage over the actions of democratic congressional majorities, raiding trust funds for decades, must be more than a pro bono expression. BTW, The repubs would be equally culpable except they are too stupid to tie their own shoe laces. My goodness. Either, sue, settle or find a new client.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:28
Jack WW, but thats inflation__you said it>(WW, but thats inflation__you said it):

WW: Have you ever considered prices 30 years ago and
prices today. NOW THATS INFLATION. Why should they be
ten times higher, advancements? Nah its probably gold.
It was no excuse to raid the Ponzi SS system -the sitting
duck- in the first place, but they did -no problemmo.
And I add, to have it pay for the power trips that vote
loving politicians of all persuations cherish. Gez, I
ain't no historian, but mimmicks the fall of the Roman

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:28
Goose @ T.B. & Poster>(@ T.B. & Poster):
Ted B. Great post on Silver at Gold Eagle.. Fits my thoughts to a T..

Poster 2323.. Your 23:38..Good point.. The New Order people are sharp and plans are in place.. Hang on for a KEEL HAUL.. g'nite

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:28
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
Looky looky you grain buyers. EBN shows corn up 2.25!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:26
Larry While I'm at it >(While I'm at it ):
I question your statement that the SS trust fund is being raided. Actually, I don't question it very much.

It is my understanding that the money collected for the trust fund is rapidly spent as it comes in. I don't argue over that.

I also agree that the excess funds left over after paying SS entitlements/payments, goes to help pay other federal expenses. The trust fund therefore receives an IOU from the US govt, which I have been told collects interest, just like a T-bill.

In other words, the SS trust fund is full of IOU's collecting interest. If the original collections were not spent, what do you recommend we do with all that cash? I think it would be spent investing in the safest and conservative investment around, U.S. T-bills. That way the trust fund would actually increase in value, waiting for that day around 2005 when collections become negative.

I suggest to you that the IOU's being held are equivalent in all respects to any other U.S. govt obligation, and will be honored. If not, then the other U.S. debts would be in doubt, and the feds cannot afford to allow that kind of thinking. In other words, the IOU's have value and collect interest. ( If I am wrong in this, then this is legalized embezzlement )

The only difference is that the IOU's are not measured as part of each year's annual deficit, but that is a political decision, not a financial one. I believe that they are considered as part of the increasing debt, however.

Of course, the future will hold a time when the regular federal taxes will have to pay back the IOU's to the trust fund just like a car loan, and the future taxpayers will be upset at paying to cover that debt. That is, and will not be, the fault of future SS recipients receiving their fair share. It will be the fault of today's politicians.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:22
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
Savage -- Wrong question. It's not what the 'price' of the metal will be. Rather, the question will be what is the value of the buck then? And granted, there will more than likely be a runup in the 'price' of gold first. Well, maybe. Only if a 'bump' in the middle of the night isn't heard first.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:16
Savage more>(more):
ELDO: And when they reinstitute gold backed e-currency, what MUST the price of gold be? And, won't the price be run up before the fact? I don't know WHEN gold is going to skyrocket; I just plan to be in the market when it does.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:13
Mooney: Case in point. May I offer WW @00:32. An otherwise astute gentleman who has much to offer on markets. The arithmetic seems to work just fine when applied to a market problem. But somehow the pencil always breaks or blunts when the issue at hand is a weepy political issue. There must be a vaccine against such drivel. .... I know, the Chinese bought up the entire supply and are waiting patiently for the US to destroy itself in internecine warfare.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:11
Auric @Oh! America!>(@Oh! America!):

Bob @ 23:00-- The exact same thing also can be
applied to US politicians. Maddening, ain't it?
EWP: I will use my connections with the good
Senator to see what I can do!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 01:08
Eldorado @the scene>(@the scene):
I might also add that if this currency tanks, we all won't have to worry about Social Security or Medicare anymore! I believe the whole argument will become mute, just as government funding of anything will become! The only recourse the government will have is to default on its paper debt and re-implement gold and silver currency as the only legal tender. That will be the only way it could even begin to regain 'credibility' with the people and with other nations! As for those who are left holding the bag? ah well! They should have known better! It's not like there hasn't been plenty of warning. No different than anyone else investing in anything else.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:57
Larry much_longer_term>(much_longer_term):
I believe George Cole mentioned it, but the lean toward the right began somewhere around 1979 with Thatcher ( probable due to, but at least coinciding with the big rise in gold and the lack of confidence in existing left leaning govts ) . Now that currencies are relatively stable, the populace can't remember 18 years back and leaning back to the left is considered the thing to do.

Since I can't affect the output of any election, particularly France, I prefer to make the most of the current situation. I analyze the world attitude to be that a lean to the left is what is needed and therefore, expect to see many more policies which will plunge the world in general, and Europe in particular into an inflationary, debasement of currencies. We have nearly reached the reverse of the gold peakand we will shortly see a bottom in metals which we will never see again.

But not next week.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:53
Savage reply>(reply):
ELDO: re your 23:28 Gold is THE political metal ( which has been artificially kept down for ( how long ) ) ...Platinum has not. IMHO $1000.00 gold may be cheap in the next century. As Cherokee often states, every action contains an equal and OPPOSITE reaction. 'Course, I could be wrong.....but I'm putting my money where my mouth is. ( as we all do, of course )

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:52
WW @New England>(@New England):
EWP: Then you support the ongoing theft from the trust funds and a very broad based tax which would maintain the viability of the system without raising payroll taxes on future generations. If that is Socialism the I guess I am a Socialist. I would more like to think of it as preventing theft. Just as rich people decry estate taxes as the earned the wealth /so have the workers earned the money put into the SS and Medi Trust funds which have been and continue to be raided. If we dont pay SS and Medi then why not a 100% estate tax/ whats the difference/ just two different forms of taking earned property from those who earned it.

Further EWP I cant find any of our Conservative Canadian friends willing to give up their National Health Care System for the US private system. Sorry, My friend the facts speak for themselves. You are out on the extreme.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:49
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
When talking of the possible future 'prices' of the metals, I really have a hard time equating them to past performance. Back 'then', we didn't have the derivatives like we do now. Also didn't have the supply imbalances building as we do now. Also didn't have 75% of our bond purchases being done by foreigners. I.E., nothing in the past even approaches the problems facing this currency now. If this currency actually tanks, gold could wind up going SO high that one could actually buy a good suit for an ounce of it! 'Course, it might also take $10,000 dollars to do the same! Or $10,000,000! To preserve your wealth is the name of this game! It also means having it in hand!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:44
Larry downhill from here>(downhill from here):
After watching the manner in which palladium and platinum fell out of bed Friday and gold and silver's inability to sustain a minor rally, I fear that we are in for a bad week .... unless you are buying XAU puts. Most funds are well off their recent lows so they have a ways to go to hit support. Will XAU go under 100? If yes, how far?

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:43
to Jack: agree ... Soc. Sec. is not a pension ... evolved into a ponzi scheme ... should have been a defined contribution plan instead of a defined benefit plan ( the future is being railroaded and very few seem to care ) .

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:40
WW: Yes I was. You just have venal concerns that will continue to pass the bill to generations that follow you. Go lick some envelope for Gephardt 2000. I hope he is the DNC candidate in 2000! If people are stupid enough to vote for socialism in the U.S., I guess they deserve it.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:38
Jack @SS>(@SS):

EWP: SS should have been started as a non or limited
withdrawal savings plan and without any of it getting
into the hands of the politicians. Perhaps after the
contributors becoming financially educated, about 20%
could have been allowed for stock investments.
Now with the market at 7000+++, they talk about it
Someone is now being led to slaughter and its the middle
Best that the government buys new gold and that new gold
be used to slowly extinguish Social Security as it now
exists and keep IRA's with limits on stock investments.
As for medical insurance my physician warned me, years
ago, that with medical insurance -public or private- that
cost would skyrocket. He was right on, sorry to say.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:36
Auric: Second that. Sen. Blutarsky 2000! Can he do me a favor ( use his power of persuasion ) and get all those stinking lawyers ( and Geraldo and Charles Grodin too ) off of CNBC?! They are really messing up that channel and they make me sick! There is nothing else interesting to watch on TV ( investment or economic wise ) . Nite all.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:31
WW @New England>(@New England):
EWP: YOU were not listening I am talking about the people paying NOW getting their benefits they have paid for. I know current retirees receive more than they put in but thats inflation. The country has benefited from reduced borrowing by the SS and Medicare trust fund raids costs so a very broad based tax should be instituted so the hard working people of today are not ripped off. They should also stop using the surplus now as the Democrats have suggested and Republicans have opposed. The crap about burdening future workers is just that, Stop borrowing now and institute a very broad based tax to ensure the current workers receive the benefits they are morally entitled to because of their past/future and ongoing contributions to the system.

Apparently you think it is ok to rob those who have already and continue to pay into the system. If America adopts your policies who knows how far to the left we will go. Conservatives lose hands down on EARNED ENTITLEMENTS. The French people pay taxes for their benefits and they dont want them cut as per election results. The same will happen here when they try a SS and Medicare ripoff AND people feel the effects then bye bye conservatism.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:30
Reify @adding a thought or 2>(@adding a thought or 2):
George S. Cole- Have been agreeing with you for some time, however in checking my long term work, which I've had to extend into the future more than once,it now says to me, the turnaround is at hand and late summer early fall is the 1st target, with the next larger top in the spring of '98.

Ted Butler, liked your silver article, at the Gold Eagle, however here too, I would like to add a thought, which has been on my mind for some time.Everyone seems to be enamoured with the manipulation theory of CBs and R. Rubin and Greenspan. I believe that the real culprit it the rediculous spending spree we've been on for over a half century, and that the CBs and treasurers, of the western spending nations, are all in the same boat, and that is, looking for a solution to solve their common problem ( the immense debt each has ) .

Having found lending their stockpiles, of precious metals out, and possibly the derivative market's uses, have delayed the innevitalbe for them, and that's why the pressure is starting to build up. When you look at long term gold charts you will see many interesting patterns that look like gigantic bases, building over long periods.
Should you wish to peek into the future, as we all seem to like to do, we see a very large and extended up- swing for the future. The final top of which cannot be calculated, but believe me it'll be high.

Past moves in gold were 6-8 fold, the base now is much larger, and 10 plus is not unreasonable, especially given the fundamentals we've all been speaking and writing about.

Thanks to Bart and all those participating, each with their knowledge, insight and experience, we have and will continue to benefit. Hopefully some of the old timers will eventually return home to us.

One final thought, long term cyclical moves also hint to us what we all know must come, inflation, depression and commodities, especially precious metals, going in the opposite direction. We've seen it all before. Ain't othing new under the sun. ( this borrowed! )

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:17
Right as usual Earl! Our Stanley Cup Hockey Championships, ( yours now also as any great Canadian invention always gets stolen by the big guys to the south! ) , even take longer than our national election campaigns. But of course that's to be expected. They're more exciting, more hard fought and more important!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:15
Selby Donovan's Place>(Donovan's Place):
Well gentlemen--I noticed a distinct lack of contempt for the PrestoMan and his friends from Wendy and her buddies tonight. Presto wants to privatize the CBC so the recent respect might mean they have seen their new boss or more likely the pain in their boss's --back. Big day on Monday. Imagine if the US guys had this range of decisions to make. Not just two parties to chose from but 5. The possible conspiracies increase exponentially.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:15
Auric @Blutarsky in 2000>(@Blutarsky in 2000):

EWP @22:46--Agree. That would explain the loss of
nerve of the US Congress. Perhaps they saw this
trend coming. Backlash in 2000? Very possible, if
things start unraveling. INMHO the socialist trends
virtually assure that. Plus, things seem to happen
so dreadfully fast these days!

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:13
M.Graves @ Valley>(@ Valley):
Earl : Careful !!! You may bring the wrath of American pie eaters!!!Deportation to Cape Breton may not be in your plans. ha ha ha

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:12
Eldo: Forgive me but for us old guys, Friday's post are prehistoric. ..... but without being a smartass, my thoughts are that unless there are compelling reasons for corn and wheat to go lower than recent history, both are probably a buy in here. ..... but what do I know. I liked corn at 296. It had good support at 292. Remember? ..... When I look at gold, I remember corn at 292-296. Slid right through 292 without taking a breath. ..... 340 gold is solid support? Maybe. Maybe not. Until the volume improves I ain't buying it.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:02
Mooney: Au contraire, Amigo. ( Or something like that ) At least Canadian politics and discussions are carried on in a civil manner. I have been following the discussion with a sense of awe. It is actually cordial compared to the mindless crap that takes place here in the suburbs to the south. Witness the moronic stuff that US partisans have posted here in the recent past. Its enough to gag a maggot. In addition, it is election time and you Canucks, mercifully, complete the process in a tolerable length of time. We in the US, on the other hand, must revel, endlessly, in the swill and are subjected to the process interminably. It literally, never ends. ..... UNtil one or the other runs out of money. .... a temporary setback.

Date: Mon Jun 02 1997 00:02
M.Graves @ Valley>(@ Valley):
Ted & Novice : Just got home from the donut factory , and looks like I missed a good discussion on Cape Breton. Us mainlanders have been saying this for years!!! Ted , a reform seagull with night vision coming your way!!!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:52
Short Bull Caledonia Mining ?>(Caledonia Mining ?):
I used to belong to an investment club that really pushed this stock,
thinking it was the stock over the next ten years that could go up
ten to 50 times. It had a big run-up and has since languished. I haven't
even checked the price lately...anyone have info. on it or opinions
about the company?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:45
to Short Bull: I like following individual stocks ( a group ) versus a fund. More risky ... I know. I found the gold stock analyst site interesting ( ) with their potential takeovers and stocks around a buck picks ( a good starting point at least ) . Those are the types of individual ones ( along with some others I have looked into ) I'm looking at. Some don't have a whole lot of volume ( so they probably aren't for the faint hearted ... or for people who are trigger happy but have a lot of shares they want to sell with limit orders ) . All these elections are interesting ( French going socialist .. it figures; GB, etc. ) ... not really sure how to interpret them in relation to the metals. I would think the French Election is short term bullish for metals? Maybe no impact? Who knows .. I guess.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:42
TED @canada>(@canada):
EBN Gold down .55 ...Good night TOO Tarnished!...But NOT you ALEXA!...Go Preston GO!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:41
Short BUUULLLLLL! To Front>(To Front):
When I's bullish I'll try to put the emphasis on the bull part of my
handle and when I'm bearish the short part. I am bullish which does
not meen I am recommending buying at the market, but I hope to get
long shortly, hopefully in the next 2-3 days, depending on the action!
I'm signing off now.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:39
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
Earl -- You still out there tonight? Noticed earlier that you were 'looking' at grains. You got the same take on them as I posted early early Saturday A:M?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:38
Poster 2323 Goose>(Goose):

Goose: And Old Skull and Bones, the crackling Bush who
stated openly A New World Order made overtures to
Sukarno. Then who is a director at Freeport. Veddy,
Veddy Interestin____. Perhaps Bre-x will gain the status
of a folk hero.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:34
6pak election @ excellent discussion>(election @ excellent discussion):
Mooney June 01 21:17: This Participant, disagrees with your reference to the discussion about the Canadian Election, but, very much agrees with your position, regarding THE MAN,*ON THE TAKE* Crime,Corruption and Greed in the Mulroney years.

When Brian Mulroney's Tories left office in 1993, Canadians breathed a collective sigh of relief. There had been boondoggles, cover-ups, and scandals aplenty and the strong suspicion that among those in power many had looked after themselves and their cronies at the expense of the citizens who had elected them. Canadians knew they didn't like the Tory regime, but they didn't know half the story ( by Stevie Cameron )

This participant has enjoyed each and ever post regarding the Canadian Election , and want to thank each person for sharing their views.

This participant is very much, 180 degree opposite view, in terms of most positions stated, regarding Medicare, and Quebec. Just thought you should know. A conservative with a *conscience*. Thanks again everyone.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:28
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
Savage -- Not ir-rational. Perhaps you'll tell us why you think that gold will surpass platinum. Maybe it'll enlighten us!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:27
Short Bull ( To EWP>(To EWP):
Through my free midday e-mail comments I provide my thoughts on Rydex
and Invesco ( formally Financial Group, Denver, Colorado ) sector funds.
Invesco gold fund ( heavily into juniors and small growth gold stocks )
has been slipping badly of late, but I feel it should bottom quite soon.
I feel the XAU is the best trading vehicle ( Rydex Precious Metals ) as
it is easy to chart the XAU during the day. But the XAU will have
problems due to hedging by some of the stocks. Newmont is not hedged I
am told but many of the other BIGS are. That will limit the XAU rise
long-term. In 1993 I was long Invesco gold fund at 3.82, jumped out at
a loss at 3.72 area. It dropped I believe down to 3.38 to 3.40 and then
really took off and I missed much of the moves. The fund went to 7.50 I
believe in 1993 and hit around 9.60 in early 1996, with some dividend
payouts. Today Invesco is in Euro Nevada, Franco Nevado, Lihr, and
numerous stocks that are highly touted based on my junk mail. I will
be moving back into Invesco once gold reaches above $400 but for now, I
am playing the XAU through Rydex. I am going to take Larry's challenge
and post my positions on this server if others want to follow along.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:24
Selby Home of the World's Fastest Man>(Home of the World's Fastest Man):
Mooney: You just calm down and accept the possibilty that after all the Clinton, RR, CB, Greenie, Libs ( US ) , Hilbillary, Gated Community, Sam Adams, etc chat around here--it is OK to mention and indeed comment on the possible outcome of a federal election in our own country. Sure we are conservative and polite but there is a possibilty that we are not all esculent even if some of us are from the Yukon.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:21
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
Short Bull -- Maybe next time will, for some reason, be different, but I too cannot foresee why platinum would sell at a discount to gold on a big rally. Historically, only at the bottoms does platinum trade at a discount to gold.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:17
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
Dollar strong but not soaring...Gold down .50...RR gives speech at George Washington University tomorrow and lets see what goodies he pulls outta his bag of tricks...One month to go for HK!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:15
Short Bull: I agree on the juniors comments. That, along with growth companies that have a proven track record, is where I'm focused. A little more risky ... but that is what I'm looking for in my asset allocation in the mining sector.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:14
Short Bull To Savage:>(To Savage:):
Looking at the charts I have never seen a time when platinum did not
gain on gold during rallies. Can anyone find a place where it did not
happen? Especially now with the great hedging going on in gold, selling
forward, etc., the yellow metal should lag. I guess if there ever was
a short-covering rally big enough to knock the shorts out on their
now bankrupt butts, gold could for a time be the big winner. However at
the top I feel Platinum will end up at higher levels and a little later
in the cycle....other thoughts?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:10
Short Bull To Eldorado>(To Eldorado):
Exactly!!! I will be buying silver and Platinum on dips ( Palladium a
bit too thin for my tastes ) , and will wait to aggressively sell gold
when we reach much higher levels, selling some gold around $500.00,
resistance, selling more once we approach $650 to $800, etc. At above
$750 to $800 I would be totally hedged and watch the spread work for
me for further gains.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:09
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
Short Bull -- Now you're talkin'! And silver will certainly be the biggest percentage mover!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:08
Savage !>(!):
SHORT BULL: I guess I feel that gold may eclipse even platinum during the next 7 years. ALL: Am I irrational in this belief?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:05
Short Bull To EWP>(To EWP):
I definitely like being long gold shares ( via XAU ) more than the gold
metal due to the leverage of the shares to higher gold prices. I realize
the right unhedged Junior gold stocks will have the biggest returns but
I prefer the liquidity of the XAU. In regards to the metals, silver will
ultimately be the metal with the largest % gains, as silver can move to
$50.00 ( ten times a $5.00 price ) quicker than gold will go up ten times.
However, short-term as long as gold is being manipulated, I like the long
Platinum and short gold trade....buying Platinum on dips and selling gold
only on rallies. I would leg the spreads on. Other thoughts?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:03
panda @>(@):
Short Bull -- Good point.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 23:00
Bob @...for Canucks only>(@...for Canucks only):
Lets face it folks. Presto, Jean, and Jean Jr. are all professional politicians who would not have achieved anything without riding the wave of father, Trudeaumania, and Baloney Mulroney - daddy/consultant to Charest, respectively.

We suffer from a long line of nobodies who dominate the political process and let things slide for the sake of political opportunism and expediency.

Reform would probably do better if Manning retired and let some new blood lead the next battle.


Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:59
Bob: I think HK is a booby trap for investors. I would touch it with a ten foot pole. Suckers rally, in my view. A lot of reports show the iron fist of Red China is already starting pound on HK.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:59
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
Short Bull -- It'll work, but your 'profits' won't be nearly as large. Personally, I'd just as soon be long both those metals and silver from low numbers, such as we have today, or soon, and not worry about it. Take the elevator ride on all of them. I think your spread trade might be better at the point where you THINK gold might have topped. Then short it while keeping the long platinums. This should help preserve the gains to date, and keep you fingers in for a potential turnaround.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:58
panda @>(@):
It seems that most are expecting a stronger Dollar as a result of the French elections. I wonder how strong is too strong? Guess we'll have to wait to see the European reaction in the metals early this A.M.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:55
Short Bull @enlightened.>(@enlightened.):
Savage: I guess it would be hard for anyone at this site to endorse even
a spread trade which involves selling gold as part of the spread trade,
even if it was the most economically feasible thing to do. I am not
married to my trades, my opinions, even my passions.....I am married to
my wife and I am still trying to figure that one out, Earl. I guess if
she can put up with me....

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:53
Short Bull: I think the mining shares ( for gold, silver, platinum, copper, etc. ) are more bullish ( i.e. better returns ) than the actual metals itself. I feel this way because of the decent jobs most mining companies have been ( and seems to be continuing ) doing in reducing cost. What do you think?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:51
Short Bull - glad you're not leaving. More comments later.
D.A. - Did Friday's action in PA surprise you? I figured Thursday was
the reaction to the strike being settled. Friday caught me completely
offguard. I jumped into Sept. first thing Friday morning - boy was that
a bad move.

off to dinner - be back later.

kuston ( a new handle )

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:51
Bob @ HSI, July 1st, and a Red Deal for the Billionaires>(@ HSI, July 1st, and a Red Deal for the Billionaires):
A few months ago the HSI was hovering around 12000 and the Red China take-over of the capitalist mecca was ( and still is ) a subject of more than passing interest and concern.

Now that we have listened to Mr. Market ( HSI style ) it appears that the recent rise in the HSI can be attributed to a Red contract with the wealthy elite of Hong Kong. Can anyone else offer an alternate explanation of the harmony and good fellas karma happening there ?

My read is that the HSI will be the Reds primary distributor of privatized Red govt entities - IPOs. The victims will be gullible Western and European banks and funds who have been well primed by the lead of the HK Billionaires for the story story of the 21st century. Who would offend this sleeping giant that is ready, willing, and able to play the capitalist game to move the Chinese economy into the forefront of nation states ?

The MO for buying into Red IPOs ( through HSI lead primary dealers ) is to join the HK Billionaires who are good mouthing the Reds and seemingly pumping more investment in HK - whats good for the inside rich folks should be good enough for the munchkins in Europe and West to throw some good money on the story story. ( Thats right - story story, you know, infrastructure, a billion consumers, demand for higher standard of living, etc., etc. - a story built on top of stories. )

The way I see it is that the only reason the HK Billionaires are playing along with the Reds is because they probably have a Red Deal to secure and enhance their wealth as a commission for orchestrating Red China into the next financial and economic empire. Look out Darth vader !

In theory, given the population base of China, the Reds may very well eclipse the US economy sometime in the 21st century as the Americans had eclipsed the venerable British Empire in the early part of this century.

This, of course, could only happen if the West moves sufficient investment capital into China - much like the Brits did for the US before the Americans tossed the Limies out on the ask me no questions...


Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:46
I see the move towards socialism lasting through the U.S. elections in 1998 ( with the operatives of big government out in force ) . I see the year 2000 ( partically in the U.S. ) as a potential backlash against the bully influence groups that steal for the economice future of this country through their WW styled socialism through incrementalism.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:45
Short Bull @ ?>(@ ?):
Savage: Who said anything about shorting gold. I am talking about a
spread trade...BIIIGGGGG difference!!! I am bullish gold, I am
just more bullish platinum as over time the premium in platinum
will widen as it usually always does on strength. At extreme lows,
Platinum loses to gold and can go under the price of gold. I would
not put on the Platinum/gold trade unless I was bullish on metals ( dah ) .

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:39
WW: Will you quit the DNC and James Carville rhetoric on Soc. Sec. and Medicare. People get more than they paid for in Soc. Sec. and Medicare is subsidized health care ( subsidized by future generations ) . Soc. Sec. is not a pension plan. Many people get five times what was contributed for them in Soc. Sec. And for Medicare, people get five bucks of services for every buck they contributed. When will the ponzi scheme end. With the average boomer living probably into their 80s, it paints a future of economic slavery to the younger generations. But you obviously do not care about that.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:37
SAVAGE eh?>(eh?):
SHORT BULL: I wouldn't want to be short gold during the next 7 years. Matter of fact; gold is the last thing that I would want to perennially short. Better think about it some more.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:23
Front @upandatum>(@upandatum):

Presto man:

In your last post you said that it's easy to say let Quebec go . Sir, I want you to know that this was one of the most difficult decisions I've ever had to make. To willingly devide ones country for the sake of your childs future is an important milestone in life. It's close to heretical I realize, as a lot of old style Liberals have commented to me, but I see no other way than the route that Mr. Manning and the Refprm party are suggesting as a means to peace. What's wrong with the equality of citizens in a country? What's wrong with taking the power from the people who have wasted it and giving it to a group closer to the people? What's wrong with having the 3.5 million seperatists having things the way they want WITHIN Canada? Whats wrong with the other 3.5 million Canadians in Quebec being treated as equals across this land? If anyone can tell me, I'll VOTE LIBERAL ! Otherwise, the future of my country will be determined tomorrow and it really was a difficult thing to say.

You mentioned the 3.5 million Canadians in Quebec. Either way, no matter what happens, we'll have half the population of Quebec pissed off! That's a no-win situation! So the present system of appeasment etc. hasn't/doesn't/won't ever work obviously. So let's wake up and look for other alternatives to keeping our country together.

Nothing personal I assure you. Just raising the flag.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:23
Eldorado @the market>(@the market):
Strad -- After taking a look at the June palladium contract and the next active contract month out, which is September, You'll notice the price 'equalization' that took place. They both ended the day in the low 170s! Probably won't take more than a day or two before it could head back up. Let me emphasize the word 'could'. I kind of feel the same way with gold, but silver has to 're-direct' its' attention towards the upside. ( Hey, BMI currently shows it up a penny and a half! ) . Platinum seems to be making a normal correction, and it may not be quite done yet. It would be more proper to wait for some decent basing action indicating that it was done in that direction. News could make it go in either direction very quickly though.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:17
Canadian Election tommorow and I would have been glad to forget all about it ( for once ) as after Mulroney I didn't even want to think about politics for at least two elections! C'mon guys - vote tommorrow and be done with it. I give our American buddies heck for tying up the airwaves, they tone it down, and now us dumb Canucks gotta start. Jeez!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:12
Short Buuuullllllll (Getting bullish!) @ Catching Platinum Fever>(@ Catching Platinum Fever):
D.A.: Looking at long-term charts today I noticed something quite
startling. Gold topped in January of 1980 while Platinum topped 2
months later in March 1980. This situation occurred on other rallies
as well, as gold would top out early ( likely due to hedge pressure )
while Platinum continues with great relative strength. A long Platinum
short gold trade takes care of the problem about getting locked limit
down in gold when gold tops out. Over the next 7 years, I see the
long Platinum and short gold spread as a real winner! Do others have
any thoughts on the subject?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 22:12
Tortfeasor Bulls Bah>(Bulls Bah):
The Bulls pulled off a lucky one. From this vantage point the Jazz look better. My prediction at this point is Jazz in 7. Also gold and silver up pretty well tomorrow.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 21:53
D.A. white.metals>(white.metals):

Sorry not to have responded yet to your Email. Will do so shortly.

WIth regards to the wild and wooly world of palladium, I don't think ( hope ) its over yet. I have no direct knowledge of the Russian position either with regards to stockpiles or intent to sell. All I see is the action in the market and the statements made by Tiger fund. For the game to be over would probably require that Tiger give up on its squeezing efforts. Since it is highly unlikely that they have liquidated their position given the severe tightness which still exists in the market I think that the game will go on. My read on Friday's action is that it was just a reversal of the strike news and first notice day of June Pa contract in N.Y. A lot of people were no doubt looking at the lack of apparent warehouse stocks and assumed that no metal would be forthcoming and they would participate in the squeeze. Perhaps someone with a decent pile of metal decided to take the sure 20$ per ounce which was on the table for a three month roll. I believe the action in coffee was pretty much like this in the march - may roll. The large backwardation was greeted by some spot supply, but defered purchases. When May came around it was squeeze time all over again.

One thing I think you can be sure of with the Russians is that they will do whatever they can to get the most bang for the buck. Their dumping last year was in response to a huge need for cash. Their position has either changed vis a vis a desperate need for cash or else they ain't got no more stuff to sell. If they do have more Pa in the old vaults I think that it will still be sold to the highest bidder. I can't see them walking into Tokyo and just agreeing to some price for a big load. Not when there are other folks out there ( Tiger fund et al ) who might well be prepared to bid it higher.

For what its worth, we still have our load and won't be parting with it any time soon unless there is some truely radical upward move. I still think that time is on our side as the fundamentals must cause price rationing. Since I have heard nothing with respect to any of the big consumers doing any substitution, I can only guess that the fundamental picture has not changed.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 21:18
TED @novice>(@novice):
Novice: You have to learn to tone things down and not be so strident...
Only FOURTY YEARS and yer sick of the issue already...patience dear friend......WILL GET YOU NOWHERE!...Let em leave...on a boat!..or plane!
Where is everyone tonight Watchin Basketball...update:Jazz 58 Bulls 57

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 21:11
TED @canada>(@canada):
Give em one way tickets to Socialist France!....

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 21:09
Novice @More on Politics>(@More on Politics):
Hi Ted: Maybe logic does come into short-term ( i.e., this evening ) play here re: gold, with the strong US$ in light of French elections and other flux in Europe. My Canada: love it or leave it address below a bit strong, I guess, but I agree with Selby, Bob and Front that the national agenda here has been hijacked for the past FOUR decades ( or more ) on the separatist threat and it is time to fish or cut bait on the whole business. It has been debilitating for the country ( including Quebec....Exhibit A: look what has happened to Montreal ) .

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 21:08
TED @frontandselby>(@frontandselby):
Front: Agree with you and Selby on socialism issue as opposed to what goes down in Cape Breton and you're right in that all the hand outs are NOT appreciated...Like PIGS at a trough they always want more...Too bad Bailey didn't agree to all or nothin...

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 21:01
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
Novice: Low flying gull just dropped yer missive...Ain't I a great salesman fer retirement Cape Breton....

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 20:56
TED @skydome>(@skydome):
What a gracious loser Michael Johnson was...NOT...The ugly American syndrome strikes...again...still haven't heard a thing on U.S. network TV on Confederation bridge...maybe I'm watchin the wrong network...

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 20:51
TED @canada>(@canada):
Hi Novice!..U.S.Dollar strong against European currencies and Gold down .40...predictable initial reaction to unstable situation in Europe.....
Novice: Are you saying you don't like the NDP or somethin...Alexa was in Sydney today and neighbor Eddie ( the scam man ) went to hear her babble on and on...

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 20:48
Selby The Home of the Fastest Man in the World>(The Home of the Fastest Man in the World):
Prestoman: I think Reforms view is the right one. Those areas/ridings that vote for separation next time should separate. Further if they turn out to be land locked--a good possibility-- give them Labrador and Newfoundland in return for a promise that they never try to come back. A clear route to the sea and get them all out of our pockets and off the national agenda.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 20:44
SILVER: An enigma wrapped in an anomaly. Analyst Butler’s 5/29/97 insightful study is a necessary read by all. See Guest Guru Ted Butler - CLICK RELOAD in Gold Digest page:

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 20:28
Novice @ Canada: Love it or leave it>(@ Canada: Love it or leave it):
HERE'S LOGIC: EBN gold down $0.45. Reformers...remember to vote tomorrow. Conservatives, Liberals, Canada Action Party, Marxist-Leninists, and Greenies, NDPers...please vote Tuesday.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 20:26
Presto man @reform>(@reform):
Front, Selby; It's easy to say let Quebec go but what do you do with the 3.5
million CANADIANS in Quebec that don't want to go. It's time for Plan B, if
Canada is divisible so is Quebec OR better still, we declare Canada indivisible,
PERIOD. The last 40 years of appeasing Quebec has not worked and it's time
for a different tact.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 19:52
Westboy @----->(@-----):
I agree with Polarbear: NAOKO is no who she pretends to be.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 19:38
Selby Home of the Worlds Fastest Man>(Home of the Worlds Fastest Man):
Front and Jack: Front I agree but would change political elite to political/media elite. Watch the Panel on Wendy's prgram and I bet you will see what I mean at 10 PM. I predict Presto gets bombed for sauying waht a lot think re Quebec leadership. Jack: I think it would be even a greater country if the 2-3 million people who seem not to want to be part of it left.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 19:26
Goose Why Bre-X Salted>(Why Bre-X Salted):
All..I'm going to throw this goose egg up to see if anyone will catch it.. IMHO, the goverment, banks and financials have done thier evil
best to discourage the public about hard assets. As you know, goverment
wants to borrow ( and borrow ) at low interest. The banks have a nice
deal, lending out cheap money at higher rates and the Market would
rather you not buy hard assets but to trade ( and trade ) paper.
To me, it appears that maybe the CIA or SOMEBODY may have used the
Salt-Shaker at Bre-X, Delgratia and who knows where else, to help destroy
the future outlook for gold. Bre-X was a good example. By first indicating that HUGH supplies of gold were available ( to discourage investors ) then knowing the truth will prevail, let the gold stocks crash to discourage more gold investors.. ( Double Header )
It just seems to be weird things going on out there..
May the goose egg be of Gold.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 19:21
Strad Master Any news?>(Any news?):
D.A. As the preeminent Kitco white metals expert, what do you see happening to PA and PL in the next few days? Will the Russians actually start to deliver? Can they? Any news as to whether the Russians signed on the dotted line with Japan? Tiger Fund would lose big if PA actually made it to market.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 19:20
WW @New England>(@New England):
Selby: Thanks for the Toronto site!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 19:08
Front @upandatum>(@upandatum):

Selby & Bob :

And here I thought I was the only person on this side of the Atlantic who thought we should let Quebec go. Thanks fellow Canadians ! Finally some group is standing up and rejecting the name of bigot / racist / ( thrown at anyone who doesn't agree with our political elite ) , in order to achieve a better country for our children. Each march starts with 1 step.

TED: Selby's right that socialism is what covers our butts in disasterous times, not what goes on at the pig trough each and every hour in order to keep the complainers satified. I don't think I'd mind so much if they were grateful for the assistance but they've come to expect it as a right of citizenship which really eats my shorts ( apparel and stocks! ) .


Great eh!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 19:03
Inernet’s favorite economist, George Cole, sees DOW peaking in late summer - anticipates beginning of secular gold bull in same period. See Cole’s Market Insights - YOU MUST RELOAD:

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 18:40
Duncan Just a shift to the left>(Just a shift to the left):
WW ( 16:12 ) - Hey WW, astute post.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 18:34
Jack @canada>(@canada):

I can't agree with a broken up Canada, irregardless of
who it makes happy. Its a great country, regardless of
the differences.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 18:15
telecaster @thanks>(@thanks):
Panda- Thanks a bunch for the URL. I'll be digging away.

Gery, FrenchMan- Thank you for sharing your point of view. Kitco tends to be heavily weighted to a North American outlook on events. I often have a sense of myopia in this regard, that we are missing a large part of the picture. Your input is very much appreciated.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 18:12
Jack regaring Mr. Greenspan and Balderdash>(regaring Mr. Greenspan and Balderdash):

I think that when all is said and done Mr. Greenspan is
the most knowlegeable Central Banker that we ever had.
While I don't agree with his assessment that inflation is
overstated - he knows a lot better than me.
So why can't he say before the Congress. That gold
because of it's production deficits; SHOULD SELL AT A
MUCH HIGHER PRICE and the perception of it's connection
to inflation is BLADERDASH in this day and age. Sorry
Jimmy I just love that word.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 18:11
Selby Toronto--Home of the World's Fastest Man>(Toronto--Home of the World's Fastest Man):
Bob: I agree with the Good-bye Separatist sentiment. But always remeber most of the folks who post here are way out on the margin regardless of which country they live in. I doubt most of the people I meet on a daily basis ever thought of letting a reduced Quebec go and getting on with life.

All the politicians except Presto and all of the national media are wrapped up in the same concerns of the last 30 years. An abrupt change means their working life has to change. Most won't like that.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 17:53
Bob @ ...we stand on guard for thee !...>(@ ...we stand on guard for thee !...):
Selby: I agree with you. Habitants outside of Montreal who want to go it alone should have the right to give up all their Canadian privileges immediately and leave us all alone. The only solution is to permit a nation within a nation to co-exist without putting up any geographic borders. Separatists need only pay their taxes to the Separatist govt in Quebec City and federalist Quebecers pay taxes to a newly formed provincial govt. in Montreal. Simple. Clean. End of story.

The problem is, as you will probably agree, the liberal machine ( PC or Liberal ) has made great political hay out of the noise from PQ over the last 30 yrs.

The fathers of modern separatism are Trudeau-Bourassa who together foisted the War Measures Act on an entire nation to catch a few amateurs who eventually killed a controversial guy who happended to be a junior minister of Bourassa's govt - the James Cross ( British Trade officer ) kidnapping was a media play - thus legitimizing a few looney tunes with an idealistic revolutionary agenda.

Do you realize that Jacque Rose is walking the Streets of Montreal as hero today ?!

Prominent poets/entertainers who toyed as fridge romantic separatists now had a reason to go into the movement full-force after WMA was proclaimed and the army rumbled the streets of Montreal with APC's and tanks. WAY WAY overblown and the beginning of the end for compromise in Quebec.

Do you remember the story of one high profile chantuse ( singer ) who was rudely interupted during intercourse by Montreal police who smashed into her montreal apt. with a warrant for arrest under the war Measures Act.

If that ever happended to me or you man we would also be tucking separatists - may oui !!

If it wasn't for the greatest political blunder in Canadian history - instituting War Measures Act in 1971 - the Separatists would have been comfined to ( barracks ) blowing up mail boxes once in awhile and calling in a few false bomb alarms - still happening in Montreal's Place Ville Marie every so often - to let us know they haven't faded away.

We still have Liberals who actually believe they are the only glue to keep Quebec in Canada !

I'm with you ! Let's get rid of these people and get our political lives back in order without this annoying noise from a minority of Quebec facists.

Oh ! Canada !

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 17:46
Selby Toronto>(Toronto):
WW: Here you go:

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 17:41
Jack -- It'll be coming soon to a 'building' near you! Watch for it. :- ) )

If it weren't so sad, I'd be laughing out loud....

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 17:38
panda @Kloof?>(@Kloof?):
John Disney -- If your around, what is the deal with Kloof mines? I haven't been able to find out much information on it. It seems like a company that everybody likes to hate. The stock price has been in a long slide down. Is managment the problem, or are reserves dwindling? Any info would be appreciated, thanks.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 17:36
Jack @ the gun>(@ the gun):

Panda: Beautifully said.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 17:27
panda @?>(@?):
TED -- Gun? Canada? Those two don't go together! I watched part of a 'news' program down here the other day, the story was about... a gun! It was quit a story actually. You see, this 'gun' went out and murdered several people. It was finally 'caught' and sentenced! Now hold on you capitol punishment abolishers! The gun was fairly sentenced to be melted down! Its remains are to be used in the constuction industry! True story folks. Problem is, they never caught the PEOPLE who pulled the trigger. I guess we're about to see the same Goebbels theory applied to the currencies and gold.. :- ) )

Everybody talks about 'revaluing' their gold, but NO ONE talks about devaluing their currency! What is a stock worth anyhow?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 17:27
Bob @ now if only LBJ's ghost would be in charge of the FED we'd be O.K.>(@ now if only LBJ's ghost would be in charge of the FED we'd be O.K.):
I understand that LBJ's short tenure as President established the ground work for modern ( post-WWII ) U.S. deficit spending.

With French socialism in power, a Labor PM at 10 Downing Street, cracks in German fiscal stoicism, and the whole 'tucking' world against gold - is there finally light at the end of this very dark tunnel ?

Thanks to GS Cole, Voronsky and other gold evangalists for keeping the flame alive - eventually we'll all get it right, eh !


Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 17:26
D.A. EMU.this.bird.won'>(EMU.this.bird.won'

Just read about the election in France. With the left scoring a huge victory I think this will mean the end of EMU. The line so far has been that even if the left wins there will be an EMU because the left are also for it. The 'only' change would be the accounting subterfuges would now be legitimized and that more countries ( read Italy ) would make it into the first round. The recent move by the Bubu to tell Wiegel to take a hike with regards to gold revalutation says that the real power in Germany is making itself heard. By my read there is no way in the world that the German banking and financial community will ever agree to monetary union with Italy. No how, no way. Given that a majority of people in Germany also do not want EMU, once the issue comes to a yeah or ney either in the form of a referendum or some political contest like Kohl reelection it will be good night EMU. One other interesting plot twist is that the French left are against the remaining privitizations of state owned businesses. Unfortunately for them France was counting on big cash from the sales to help toward deficit reduction. No sales, no EMU.

Short term this will be a big plus for the DM as people head out of the peripheral currencies. Should be interesting to see the action in the Italian bonds on Monday. The EMU spin masters will try their hardest to put a good light on the election outcome. We shall see about the market's verdict.

Out to dinner, be back later.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 17:24
bw Re: Mike:>(Re: Mike:):
Mike regarding your question on the roles of government.
1 ) Regulation of industry to prevent fraud: This can be a problem. Left on their own industry could steal as much as 10% of that the gov is currently stealing.
2 ) Financial rescue operations: The s&l debacle is 100% a product of government, as will be the comming 10x greater failure of all banks.
3 ) Maintainance of a military: We need a military. To protect OUR country may require as many as 200,000 troops, almost all stationed here. However it looks like we may need a few more as it appears our chief may have sold China a few of our secret military goodies. Ah government, they want my six-shooter but give our main adversary billions of times that fire power. I guess I just don't see the big picture.

I am not too sure about all the proper roles of government. I do know in this country they have too much money, too many computers and too many phd's sitting around with too much time on their hands. All those resources looking to do good. Hide the virgins and your pocketbooks.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 17:20
WW @New England>(@New England):
GS COLE: Just as the 70s left was far to the left of todays left where are we heading in twenty years in the pardigm given the immense future govt promises. The propaganda re self reliance to get people to give up what they know they paid for is not going to work. Prediction/of a trend/ in 20 years both the right and left will be alot furher to the left than they are today. What does this mean for the investment horizon The ans is there, but the question is timing. Clearly Wall St the CBs etc will try to keep things going as they are. Ques is when other big money decides it is time to make a move before the crowd and causes problems for over leveraged financials which were always pushed to the upside and over leveraged precious metals where said leverage was an instrument of price suppression. The mkts will tell us when this is happening. Ques is whether it will be sudden and dramatic given the current distortions and imbalances. ie could it all explode in just a couple of days with no escape hatches for anyone?

I have heard no mention of Fench Elections on CNN Headline News as of 5:15 PM EST. This may mean they didnt like the result and do not want to deemphasize it to protect our financial mkts from investor worry.
I havent been watching it every minute but I have heard nothing and you would think it would be worthy of a major mention.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 17:16
Bob's the Monsoons in India Stupid !>('s the Monsoons in India Stupid !): ... another view on gold price.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 17:13
Poster 2323 WW a Social Security Gimmick>(WW a Social Security Gimmick):

WW: We sell our National Park's to China, and throw in a
couple of Monuments and Seashore's as well, this should
help to pay for Social Security.
But the real icing, will be the direct flight's from
Beigin to Yosemite or to wherever they own a piece of the
USofA. Buy the Airlines, the heck with gold. Sounds like
a typical W.S. promotion to me. HAR HAR HAR. Not much
different than our debt based system.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 17:00
George s. Cole left and right>(left and right):
WW: Glad to see there is someone here on my wavelength re: a likely move to the left in global politics after 19 years of rightward momentum. Mike is right that today's left is far more conservative than the 1970s left. But the financial markets now have so much optimism built into them ( and gold so much pessimism ) that even a marginal shift in the political wind could trigger big market adjustments. And marginal shifts have a way of turning into major movements when the pendulum has swung too far too long to one side of the political spectrum.

Just as the 1979 election of Thatcher in Britain provided an early signal of a boom in financial assets and a bust in gold, current developments in France and Germany may signal much better times for gold and much worse times for financial markets. Too soon to be sure, but the odds are looking good.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 16:59
Selby Toronto>(Toronto):
Mike: I must have missed something because I couldn't follow your last post except for the last point ie that the military is a socialistic feature of society. It is in many ways. Medical care usually doesn't cost anything while in service and usually is free or reduced afterwards
especially for vetrans. In Canada the Canadian Legion is famous for cheap beer as well. In principle it not too different. Armed forces get low pay but services they don't have to pay for when they need them. It is an extreme--you can die and you follow orders but in concept its not
different. But I couldn't figure out what the rest of your post was about.

Going to be off Kitco soon for a month so the socialism isn't the cause of all evil posts are about to stop-- for a while.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 16:58
WW @New England>(@New England):
The dollar action in light of potential EMU problems will be interesting. If EMU problems strengthen the dollar it may be a temporary life line to further inflate the bubble here. If real money views it not for what the new French Govt will do but rather the beginning of a change in the paradigm then we may see better results for gold sooner. Wall St will put the best spin on this possible they will say this makes the US dollar and bonds and Stk mkt even more compelling . This will be the case as long as prices cooperate to give them such cover. Manipulate those futures boys as news follows price and we have a bubble which can not afford any negative spin.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 16:50
Cmax Illogical gold>(Illogical gold):
Hello Everyone.
I see a lot of new names.
Been out for a couple of months.......
( better said....just prefered to be an ostrich )
AU has just been toooo depressing to watch...
Logic has long since been thrown out the window.

Has BT come in with anything interesting?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 16:31
Jack Where's Bernatz>(Where's Bernatz):

Maybe BERNATZ DE VENTEDORM returned to his little village
in the Pyrenees? - Zu place zee vote. Bernatz, what's
your take on the election's in France.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 16:31
Senator Blutarsky @The Toga Party>(@The Toga Party):

Damn it all! I agree with WW's 16:12 post. I love
the smell of burning paper in the morning. Smells

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 16:22
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
Jack ( 16:11 ) LBJ is startin to look good.....

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 16:12
WW @New England>(@New England):
Just went over to EBN and the Est in France was 333 Left and 242 Right. I dont know if we should get too excited about this with respect to immediate gold prospects. Remember the Left, except for Communists, are pro EMU but they just want more lenient criteria. Germany's gold revaluation to make the nos. look better is parallel to the French austerity problems. Much like US did in shortening Treasury maturities to lower interest costs temporarily to make the deficit look better. The IMPORTANT message is that there is insurmountable resistance to cuts in govt programs everywhere in the interests of creating nirvana for financial investments. This is VERY important/Ques is when will it start to show its effects on Gold. If we can see the writing on the Wall I find it hard to believe some BIG NON CENTRAL BANK money is not reaching the same conclusion or noting the risk parameters are changing. The current political change might be compared to the quiet shift to the right ( at the time ) Reagan 1980 Thatcher 1979. Remember the shift to the REAL right began in Europe then spread. Same may be now occurring in reverse. Before 1978 the the paradigm was always to the left. Since 1979 the paradigm has always been to the right. This is what may be changing and if it is it has very important implications for the investment world.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 16:11
Jack @@@@>(@@@@):

Ted ( 14:10 ) Better that gold go up on basis of production
deficits alone. Say to between $650 and $700. Then get
rid of issuing of goverment bonds and pay them off at
face value. Then stop or curtail fractional reserve
banking. This would allow for gold prices that are still
higher than stated above and without the pain that you so
logically allude to.
Also we can use some silver in the monetary system.
Its removal was LBJ's legacy.
Remember the old LBJ/surgeon's joke, with the punch line
- All I had to work with was a horses ass and a cowboy
hat, and he went on to become President of these United

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 15:56
Auric: You said it better than I could. The net result should be the same. Now all we need do is look for the signs.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 15:53
MIke@: There are philosophical views on this site that differ dramatically from your myopic reference to standard libcons. Though small in number they would categorically reject each conclusion. ie, putting your money in a bank is not materially different from any other investment. Choose with care and assume your own risk. It is after all the depositors asset.

Moreover, I think it is unfair to pose and posit in the same paragraph. If you wish to pose a question. It is only fair to allow a response without ascribing an answer that may not reflect opposing views. In effect you have opened the debate and closed it. The process becomes merely a rhetorical device. With no net gain.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 15:45
Auric @Pressing Problems>(@Pressing Problems):

Earl@ 15:33--The Socialists have promised earlier
retirement, shorter work week with no reduction in
pay, and higher employment. The term painting
yourself into a corner comes to mind. The only
solution? Fire up them presses!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 15:35
TED @selby>(@selby):
Selby: You obviously have been to Nova Scotia-Cape Breton.....Mainland Nova Scotia is like a mecca of free enterprise compared to Cape Breton.
....They are like two seperate provinces that very much resent each other
and I must say I totally side with the mainlanders ...right MGraves!..
....the attitudes in CB are some of the worst I have ever encountered...and I been around...and back!...There are exceptions but the majority are some of the laziest people on earth who just should I say ...WHINE!...Poor babies..I feel for ya...Your lives ( with all the lattest toys+trinkets ) are so rough...hahaha!
Depressed Atlantic Canada...hahahaha...never seen a depressed area where the people lived such SOFT, CUSHY, lives......When CB gets money from Ottawa the local newspaper the cape Breton Post refers to the federal money as GOODIES...What's that play money er somethin...The waste and decadence is incredible fer such a depressed area...They don't know what depressed is!!...

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 15:33
With the present controversy surrounding the EMU, it would seem reasonable to expect increasing numbers of people to suddenly begin paying attention to the concept of fiat currencies in general. The French elections and toppiness of world equity markets should 'incentivize' the process. As pointed out earlier by others, it should indeed be an interesting week in the markets.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 15:26
Mike @>(@):
GOVERNMENT: What are your views concerning the following roles of government:
1. Regulation of industry to prevent fraud.
2. Financial rescue operations for troubled corporations and financial institutions.
3. Maintainace of military.
If people don't have government regulations on their backs they often like to engage in fraud, grand larceny and embezzlement. Witness for example the S&L fraud. If you are a true conservative you must agree that the defrauded depositors should not have been bailed out. Very few selfproclaimed conservatives will agree with that. While they certainly want government off their back they also want their deposits insured.

Also: Is not the military the greatest socialist institution around: Central planning, lack of individual liberty, entitlements. is this not one of the primary appeals for the underclass to join the military?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 15:21
TED @ww>(@ww):
WW ( 15:15 ) You finally said something I can agree with!...Bravo...

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 15:20
Selby Toronto>(Toronto):
Ted: We agree. There is no real reason that there isn't much to do in the Maritimes. Korea isn't better favoured. Ireland isn't much better off and they produce about 80% of the computer software in the world I'm told and from a socialist country. Japan ain't got nothing going for it but the work of its citizens. In Nova Scotia they were lucky if they can get it together to put Volvo's together that arrived in kit form.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 15:15
WW @NewEngland >(@NewEngland ):
George Cole is absolutely correct/ there is a big backlash building against fiscal austerity. France is nothing wait til they try to do something with the Earned Entitlements here in the US re baby boomers. There will be a big boom as Social Security and medicare have been paid for thus people will feel not getting them is like stealing. There will be balancing but someone is going to end up paying ( or printing ) to make good to those who paid into the system. The message from Europe is that the people are becoming fed up with actions that hurt them but help the financial mkts. I agree with George the beginning of this leftward economic trend in politics is good for gold.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 15:09
TED @selby>(@selby):
GREAT POST and discription of reality here...The most trite of the union rhetoric here is we gotta put food on the table....Well...By the looks of the over-whelming majority...they's puttin TOO much food on table!! Almost everyone has a BIG beer gut...yeah, they're really starvin ta death here...hahahahaha.....I know millonaire's sons+daughters in the states that aren't as SPOILED as the sons+daughters of coal miners and steel workers in Cape Breton...Can only laugh at the pathetic rhetoric...he haw....Yeah, your right Selby this ain't's appeasement...Ottawa buyin em off to keep em under control but at the same time creating a real long term festering problem for Canada...Wait till the next generation here grows ( ? ) up here.....A similar problem is ocurring in the states by creating a permanent underclass of citizens...Throw money at em and they'll stay under control....yeah..fer now...

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:56
Savage aha>(aha):
VRONSKY: I just tried to e-mail someone else ( which I seldom do ) and the missing argument came up again. So, the problem's on my end.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:52
TED @torontoskydome>(@torontoskydome):
Who's goin to win the Million and a half dollars...Donovan Bailey ( Canada ) or Michael Johnson ( USA ) ....

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:49
Selby Toronto>(Toronto):
Ted: You are talking about the excess of the past 30 years of transfer payments and political buy offs resulting in a bunch of layabouts living off the work of people in BC Alberta and Ontario. I have been to Cape Breton and have no problem with your description but see it as a marginal extremes --that I'm paying for--sort of like the Washington DC government.
Every time I see the beer bellied Newfie on TV complaining that he hasn't had a job in five years and his welfare is running out I thank heavens that he and your neighbours are in the boonies and not living in Toronto where it would cost me a whole lot more to keep him in the indolence that he has be come accustomed to. This isn't socialism you are talking about its old fashioned pork barrelism--IMHO. Socialism is where I paid for medical services via my taxes and when I needed a few thousand dollars worth I didn't have to take out a mortgage on my house.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:40
Mike @>(@):
George S. Cole: People might vote for leftist parties but these parties themselves are moving more to the right. I believe the pendulum is swinging to the right. Take a look at Bill Clinton. His economic policies are more conservative than those of previous democratic presidents.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:37
TED @capebreton>(@capebreton):
George S Cole: Good post on French elections and it sounds much worse than anticipated.....You can always count on the fun will start in about 6 hours...

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:36
Selby Toronto>(Toronto):
Bob: I may or may not be numb but I am a Separatist. There is nothing I would rather see than the the Quebecers who wish to become a separate country become one. I imagine it would be about 25% of the current Province and centered around Lac St Jean. Then this would be I bland country eh by gar!!!!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:33
TED @selby>(@selby):
Selby: Until you've been to Cape Breton you ain't seen SOCIALISM in Canada....or the evils it can cause....No responsibility for anything is taken....everything is up to the government or the goverment's fault....
Say good-by to the lobster industry in Atlantic Canada! it goes the way of the Cod......Watchin this unfold right from the living-room window.....SOCILAISM=NO COMMON SENSE!.....

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:32
George S. Cole French elections>(French elections):
Tomorrow should be an interesting day for gold, currencies, and European stock markets. Apparently there are many people in this world who DO NOT LIKE U.S. Social Darwinist philosophy and will actively oppose its spread.

I have long maintained that a backlash against the now extant free market worship was inevitable and would ( in time ) be very bullish for gold. Looks like it may have begun.


Click Here

Leftists win majority in French parliamentary elections, exit polls

Copyright © 1997
Copyright © 1997 Reuter Information Service

PARIS ( June 1, 1997 2:07 p.m. EDT ) - France's Socialist-led left-wing opposition was on course for a stunning parliamentary election victory in Sunday's decisive
runoff, all televised computer projections showed.

All projections broadcast as the last polls closed at 8 p.m. ( 1800 GMT ) gave the Socialists and their non-communist allies an absolute majority of seats in the
577-member National Assembly even without the Communist party, forecast to win 35-36 seats.

The projected outcome was a crushing defeat for President Jacques Chirac's center-right coalition, which held 464 seats in the outgoing lower house, and will force
Chirac to share power with a hostile, Socialist-led government.

Chirac dissolved parliament on April 21 and called a snap election 10 months ahead of schedule saying he needed a new elan to lead France into a single European
currency from a position of strength.

Projections by three leading polling institutes suggested his center-right coalition would lose half of its seats. The ecologists were set to enter parliament for the first
time with seven seats and the extreme-right National Front might win two.

[ Global | Stateside | Sports | Politics | Opinions | Business | Techserver | Health & Science | Entertainment | Weather | Baseball | Basketball | Football | Hockey | Sport
Server | MAIN ]

Copyright © 1997
Do you have some feedback for the Nando Times staff?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:26
Bob many false starts ?>( many false starts ?):
O.K. folks...we waited for the French and the Germans to get onside ( to help us gold investors out ) and now we need some good ( bad ) econmic news this week and if this falls into place and gold does not move past the 340s we know we are definitely in trouble for the short-term - under one year.

Cheers....GO BAILEY ! ( the runner not the booze )

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:25
TED @emu>(@emu):
French Man ( 14:10 ) Very interesting!.....but predictable!...Germans bickering....currency markets-Gold should be worth folowing tonight!!!...
Hi Jin! Let me know if anything spectacular happens in your area during Monday's trading.....You'd think the U.S.Dollar would be strong tonight..
thus it'll probably crash....

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:21
Bob @...What do you call the noise from Quebec ?>(@...What do you call the noise from Quebec ?):
Selby: We agree about the Country and T.O. being a very nice place to live. Canadians are definitely complainers. You prove that we have become numb to complaints. Do you not think that the entire Quebec separatist issue over the last 30 odd years is one gigantic complaint that won't go away ?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:18
Bob @...agree>(@...agree):
Kolorado: Amen.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:17
George S. Cole World Gold Council>(World Gold Council):
The latest weekly market analysis from the World Gold Council. Note that two other cases of ore sample tampering have turned up.

Weekly Gold Market Commentary

19 - 23 May 1997
[Previous Week]

The gold price remained under pressure in the early part of last week, undermined by a
combination of renewed speculative short selling and sizeable producer selling. The
speculative activity was essentially the tail-end of the previous week’s German-inspired sell-off while the
producer selling, which was mainly transacted through two London dealers, mostly appeared to be for three
years and more forward and was rumoured to be of South African origin. Technical support held firm at the
$340 level, however, and with the help of good consumer demand, strong platinum and palladium prices and
a steady dollar/yen exchange rate, gold spent the rest of the week consolidating around $342. The release
of the WGC’s Gold Demand Trends publication on Wednesday, showing record offtake
in the first three months of the year, also helped improve market sentiment.

It now appears that the market has come to terms with Germany’s proposal to revalue its gold reserves in
order to help bridge a DM18 billion shortfall in tax revenues and achieve the criteria needed for EMU.
Chancellor Kohl has repeated that no gold will be sold from Germany’s reserves, and the revaluation plan
itself is meeting with severe criticism within Germany; there have also been accusations of figure fudging
by other European nations. The plan, which has still not been released in detail, is due to be discussed at a
regular meeting of the Bundesbank on Wednesday, 28th May.

There have been no further developments reported in Switzerland, where the proposed revaluation of gold
reserves and sale of a proportion of them to create a humanitarian fund is also meeting with strong opposition.

The most recent CFTC reports confirm that the rally in gold prices that occurred before the German
announcement on the revaluation of gold reserves was accompanied by active short covering. The net short
position of the large speculators on Comex fell sharply during this period from 40,249 to 17,683 contracts
( from 125 to 55 tonnes ) . The uncertainty engendered by Germany’s revaluation plan encouraged a bout of
renewed short selling, however, so that the large speculators’ net short position rose again to 30,237
contracts ( 94 tonnes ) by May 20th. Meanwhile, gold lease rates firmed slightly over the week, but there
appears to be no shortage of liquidity, particularly for the nearby months.

Junior exploration stocks suffered two further blows last week in the wake of the Bre-X affair, when it was
announced that samples from deposits owned by Delgratia Mining and Golden Rule Resources had been
tampered with.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:16
kolorado @not convinced>(@not convinced):
Bob: A month or two previous I posted my opinion regarding the phantom strength of the USD. Although I agree with your post regarding the world's opinion of the US, please realize that intelligent world citizens envy the US corporate economy, not the US Government currency or debt ( which is actually owned by the Japanese ) . As we all know, many of the US companies are backed by foreign stockholders or foreign outright owners!

I think that many Europeans understand the distinction. Am I wrong?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:15
Bob @...we stand on guard for thee ....>(@...we stand on guard for thee ....):
If canada has problems it is because we have had about 100 years of bland liberalism that makes a point of being everything to everyone every election - no matter what name the political party operates under.

If you want to see a better Canada you will need to wait until the current crop of losers - party leaders - retire and ( hopefully ) a visionary with leadership and credibility comes forward.

Are you not tired of professional politicians ? Chretian, Charest ( ? ) Manning- all professional politicians with no other claim to success.

Canadians are a bland version of Atlantic liberalism long suffering from political noise from a minority of Quebec ethnocentric nationalists- who are ( truly ) the world's most favoured ( spoiled ) nation.

Fellow Canadians get ye ready for another four years of bland ruderless liberalism - whoever wins tomorrow.

Eh! Canada !

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:10
French elections first results : huge victory for the left wing :
Socialist Party : 274 seats
Communist Party : 36 seats
Ecologists : 8 seats
National Front : 1 seat
Other left wing Parties : 16 seats
Right-wing coalition : 242 seats

I will send the definitive results later.For more information you can send me an e-mail.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:10
TED @worldwar3>(@worldwar3):
Trouble on the Southern flank...New neighbor with several dogs...loud barkin dogs I might add....If they only knew who they were dealin with..
hahaha...if they only knew about Putney Vermont...and barkin dogs...Dobermans...they's DEAD now...lead poisoning....I think they got the hint as it got quiet in a hurry....Thank God I got Eddie on the Northern flank....cause he's got a gun.....Moved a 1,000 miles fer peace and quiet and commune with the ocean-nature...Not to listed ta some sick ROTweillers go beserk...Don't know what this has to do with GOlD but I'll try and weave it in somehow.....If gold does go to one or two thousand as some here have predicted things will be so bad you'd better be pretty self sufficent and NOT dependant on the system...What you gonna those gold bars.....barter perhaps....lived without electricity fer 7 years...let em take it away....heated with wood fer 20+ years...Oil can go to a 100 Dollars a barrel...grow mosta me costs can sky rocket....Everyone is predicting collapse....Are YOU ready fer it?....
or are you dependant on the system....Do you walk the walk or just talk the talk...I know what the Cape Bretoners do!!!...Evils of SOCIALISM!!!.
Like an insidious germ....infectin everything in its path....What happens to GOLD if the Socialists prevail in France....You'd think it would help the U.S. Dollar but then anything rational these days How bout it RR.....

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:08
Selby Toronto>(Toronto):
Bob: I don't hear a lot of complaints but the UN is certainly right.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:02
kolorado @I see the CBs cracking>(@I see the CBs cracking):
Tw, Gery, Bob, GSC:

Being one of the former supporters of the USD-Gold Ceiling conspiracy theory, wherein the CBs plot to purify the world of the Gold curse, I now admit that I am backsliding. This German row has me excited. IF Alan anti-Gold Greenspan and the Bonn government can't keep Hans T. under control, what does that say about the anti-Gold conspiracy? Weak legs? Go Hans Go! The Euro has no clothes! Cover it with Gold!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:02
Bob @...Canadian are the world's greatest complainers>(@...Canadian are the world's greatest complainers):
Selby: You get what you pay for and sometime more or less. You pay a high price to live in Toronto but you live in the world's most livable world city in what the UN claims to be the best country to live.

Cheers ( from oakville )

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 14:00
Does Anthrax write for AP? I am reading my Sunday paper ( a legitimate mid size mainstream paper ) and much of the terrorist stuff he posted in this thread is in the AP article I'm reading right now. For example, maybe identical to his post ... A Hezbollah terrorist tapes a lightbulb to the track of a New York City subway station ... etc. etc. releasing Anthrax, one of the dealiest toxins known to humanity. Also, refers to a classified report called Terror 2000. It also refers to the cell structure of the terrorist groups. Scary.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 13:59
Bob @...why is the world buying US$ ?>(@...why is the world buying US$ ?):
Kolorado: Because the US is the most powerful and stable economic empire in modern history. The US ( and its subsidiary nation Canada ) is the home plate of most ( in terms of scope, scale, and predictability ) of what is valued by people everywhere - freedom, human rights, free enterprise, high standard of living, and - most of all - the best opportunity to increase one's lot on this planet.

The US may have problems - as we all do - but no other nation can claim as great or robust cultural, economic, and geographical landscape.

Cheers ( from an admiring Canuck )

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 13:55
Selby Toronto>(Toronto):
WW: I consider Canada a socialist country whether I like it or not. I have Unemployment insurance payments deducted from every pay check in case
I need to pay bills between jobs; I pay for all my medical costs via taxes; all the roads, garbage, collection etc I pay for by taxes; I pay for a national broadcasting system; all roads in the Province are kept up by taxes ( so far ) ; I can get free upgrading in computer skills -virtually any 3-8 month course you can think of; the armed forces are geared toward peace keeping; there are 5 major parties one of which is a social democratic party that has never held federal office and is responsible for the foregoing. This sound like a non social country to you?

With regard to the difference in the use of terms that you mention--I have 2 reasons for the disparity. One is the left overs from Daniel Boone and his contemporaries that has instilled a sense of self reliance
that is not found in many other places except maybe Australia but they can speak for themselves. The second reason is that many in the US get their socialism definitions from dictionaries and have no experience with the views that hold so dear and express so loudly. It constantly show up here. Posters confidently proclaiming the similarity of government health care and Communism--and argue vehemently with people who are living and using it.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 13:47
Bob @..EMU and Gold Reserve..Aussie theory>(@..EMU and Gold Reserve..Aussie theory):
Bonn's revaluation of Buba's gold is accounting fiction only. It permits an unrealized asset - accrued gains in gold reserves - to be posted on the balance sheet so that Germany may squeeze into the Masteritch fiscal straight jacket imposed on all EMU members. If the Bonn govt prints more DM it would be self-defeating - the revaluation would have no effect.

I wish I could follow Voronsky's and GS Cole's view on the article that JIN found. The Austrialian mineral economists theory that

1 ) Gold price should not flounder as the tender EMU entry on the global monetary scene will require solid gold backing to some degree;

2 ) Eastern and South East Asian developing nations are accumulating gold reserves.

Both factors - in theory - bode well for gold prices.

If hope that the Aussie's theory is correct. There are a few things I do find uncomfortable based on current history of CB gold dumping

- CB's and financial institutions have about a 10 yr. supply of gold production on hand.

The report would have been better digested if the statistics used were sourced - 33% of gold owned by CB's and institutions, about10 yr. supply - and the economists were not compromised - mineral economic consultants - and the country ( Australia ) was not a major producer of gold ( 4th/5th in world ) and heavily dependent on mining industries.


Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 13:25
kolorado waiting for Bundes Fall-out>(waiting for Bundes Fall-out):
Tw, Gery:

Don't Europeans, Australians, Canadians realize what the Chinese and Japanese already know? The dollar can't be propped up forever. Why would Europeans buy dollars when they know Clinton's on trial and the US current account is still red? What is this fascination with USD? Please explain this to a naive American Silverbug. I'm not talking about drug money now. Don't Europeans go for long term investments?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 13:14
Auric @The Phoenix Shore>(@The Phoenix Shore):

Re Earthquakes: Ted asked if Phoenix is on the
ocean. Not yet, : ) !

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 12:59
Tw @home>(@home):
Is this EMU issue enough to overcome the WAVE of paper sales which Glenn outlined in his post re his trading floor experience on Friday. If it is how will occur and where and who will start it?

Kolo made a good point if gold is irrelevant why the struggle in Germany.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 12:54
kolorado: What means the revaluation of the gold-reserves of the german bundesbank? It means the bank produces a book-gain by magic. The government plans to use this new money to reduce the deficit. Strongly simplified means this: they print the gained money and this increases the german money supply - i.e. higher inflation! The first reaction of the markets should be a stronger dollar and this could be a speedbreaker for gold, cause for the last two years we saw a negative correlation between gold and us-dollar ( from a D-Mark-point-of-view ) . Guess we'll see a thrilling week.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 12:49
JIN: Many thanks for the interesting article. It now seems there are two schools of thought ( among several out there ) about the success or failure of the EMU. One says if the EMU never flies, then this is favorable of gold. Now the Australian article says that if the EMU is laucnhed, this too will be favorable for gold. Personally, my knowledge of European history forces me to conclude and agree with webster's dictionary that the EMU is a flightless bird. IMHO, this will make the precious metals orbital.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 12:17
kolorado @looks like this might be the week>(@looks like this might be the week):
For those of you who don't understand German politics. Hans T. and the Bundes folks have as much power in Europe as AG does here. They are challenging their own government to stop the revaluation scheme. This means chaos for the Euro or ECU movement. The public is beginning to catch on to the relationship between Gold and currencies. Namely, the lack of a relationship. If Gold is irrelevant, why the struggle? Maybe the public will realize that post-EMU the only way to support the currency will be for the CBs to buy more Gold!

Deutche Damen und Herren, Kommentar bitte!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 12:01
George S. Cole EMU>(EMU):
JIN: Thanks for the article! A very different EMU take than the one now dominant on Wall Street.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 11:52

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 11:27
“grumps,” or rather the ghost of grumps is back! We have reprinted his Magnum Opus, Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda - It is a must read for all goldbugs. Click RELOAD at:

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 11:25
panda @:-))>(@:-))):
JIN -- The dam has cracks in it. The water is leaking through. No one is repairing the dam. Heavy rains are forecast. Seek high ground, don't get in the way of the currencies flowing through the broken dam. You will be drowned in paper. Houses built on golden foundations are forecast to do much better.

Don't you love politics? The politicians are fighting for control of the 'money'. :- ) ) :- ) ) :- ) ) How much is your paper worth in relation to my paper? Funny, doesn't it all come from trees?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 11:23
Gery,bw,vronsky,housewife, depressed Gold-Silver Bugs:

Vronsky: This Martin Armstrong sounds too good to be true. Is he your cousin? I don't mind your site promotion here ( since you have a great site ) . Keep it up.

Bullish indicators for the Gold and Silver:

Europeans fed up with Euro currency BS, esp rich Germans, will flee to Swiss Francs as soon as dollar shows weakness. The Swiss will get tired of this false valuation of their sacred currency. They will weaken it on purpose and the Germans will finally buy Gold out of desperation. Isrealis are running scared to Gold already.

US Yuppies are being told by George Vanderheiden and other equity gurus that market is ready to tip. Lots of splashy Gold adds in the trade magazines, US medical drug costs soaring, no one believes the old Clinton-Greenspan-Rubin lies about no inflation anymore. Not even blonde Yuppies ( males included ) .

Most important - Beans, Coffee, Paladium, CRB. The commodity breakouts are scaring even the Yuppies. YUPPIES DON'T LIKE TO FEEL DUPED, THEY WANT TO BE WITH THE IN CROWD. YUPPIES DONT KNOW HOW TO TRADE BEANS! THEY ARE MOVING TO PAPER GOLD NOW!

Now that I live in the Golden State, with the most Yuppies, I will keep you posted on the latest cancer cures, diets, and the state of Gold advertising on the radio.

Where is the housewife?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 11:16
panda @>(@):
Can't please everybody;

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 11:14
To all,
somethings to digest...enjoy it...
any effect?
need advices...thanks..

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 10:55
bw The gov:>(The gov:):
The best commentary on government I have ever heard was in the 1970's. An argentinean politician was asked if the new government being formed would be a Peronist government. He replied. There is no doubt our new government will be peronist. The question is what type of a peronist government will it be?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 10:07
Steve (Perth - Western Australia)>(
In light of Germany's gold revaluation talks, check this out..
I'm off to bed. Nice & warm, as it is a wet winter here now..

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 09:37
Telecaster-I agree with Gery.Socialists victory if France means a soft,light euro currency and this is good for precious metals.Don't expect big move in French interest rates,may be 1 or 1.5 points on long rates for a few months.
The 1997 socialists are not the 1981 socialists!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 09:30
M.Graves @ Valley>(@ Valley):
Ted : Crappy day again!!! Your going to have to listen to Eddie again!!!
I'm off to the donut shop , 12hrs....Yuck!!!!!see ya after midnight with alexander keiths.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 09:13
telecaster: I'm not French but Austrian financial journalist. There is a lot of fear from a soft EURO especially in Austria ( we have schillings, but in fact it is a sub-currency of the German Mark ) and Germany - a lot of money was already shifted into Swiss Francs. If the German government insists on the gold-revaluation-plan it is a clear signal to the European soft-currency-countries to use every available accounting-trick to meet maasticht-criteria. Markets HAVE TO expect an soft EURO and that SHOULD help the Swiss Franc, the US-Dollar and the precious metalls as well. It should also give a boost to the italian lira, the spansish peseta and the skandinavian currencies.

Gery, Vienna

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 09:04
TED @panda>(@panda):
Panda: How dare you run away to do errands!..The French will do what they always do....SCREW UP and vote SOCIALIST!...MGraves: Keith wasn't here but the captain sure as hell showed up...Alexa is in Sydney today...should I go down to the steel workers union hall and cause a RIOT

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 09:00
TED @grandpa>(@grandpa):
Tort: CONGRATS OLD MAN!...WW:WE don't want you on this side of the border!...Why don't you go to Foxwoods casino in Connecticut!...Have spent many a day at Atlantic City and Vegas...

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 08:51
panda @>(@):
telecaster -- That one seems to work.

TED -- Winter shall turn in to summer soon enough! It's not so much the heat as the HUMIDITY! What will the French do, and what will gold do? :- ) BBL, got to do some errands.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 08:50
bw Silver stocks:>(Silver stocks:):
The 1992 Charles River Associates silver study puts the world-wide stocks of available silver ( bullion, coins, medallions, ect ) at 19.1 billion ounces. There is also a large chunk which is in tooth fillings ect. A rule of thum I have used for fifty years seems to still hold. There is about ten times as much silver world-wide ( both available and unavailable ) as gold. If we posit the gold stocks at an easily remembered
100,000 tons the total silver is a million tons. This ratio of stocks is a reason why in the comming world-wide financial panic the gold/silver price ratio may fall to something a lot closer to 10/1 than it is now.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 08:48
panda @last attempt>(@last attempt):
Let's see if this URL works any better!

Enter in S. 307 in the Bill Search box

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 08:46
TED @panda>(@panda):
Panda: Hazy sun and HOT here!...65 degrees..WOW!...By FAR our HOTEST day of the far...Where's the damn air conditioner Tort: GO JAZZ!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 08:43
panda @>(@):
telecaster -- I don't know if the URL below will work, Thomas's search engine is kind of funny about what it or won't accept. Search for S.307 under the 104th congress.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 08:43
TED @sorrytort>(@sorrytort):
Tort: Just went backwards in time and see you ARE back...But it was DRY HEAT...right.......Does Phoenix have an ocean

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 08:38
panda @wishing.for.$>(@wishing.for.$
telecaster -- Here is the Thomas URL search away!

TED -- Good Morning TED! It's RAINING down here....

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 08:32
TED @tort>(@tort):
Tort: You are gone but not forgotten...Mornin Panda!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 08:32
panda @solution>(@solution):
Bart -- The solution for the posting issues at this site is simple, a $150 rally in gold and a $200 rally in platinum. :- ) )

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 08:28
panda @Dual.currency>(@Dual.currency):
telecastor-- There was such a bill in the Senate of the U.S. It called for a 'dual' currency system, similar to South Africas' scrapped dual Rand system. I believe it was submitted during the 103rd or 104th session. You would have to do some searching, but Thomas is the site to start at. I have long since last the URL for the legislative search site 'Thomas'. BTW, this is why we have the 'new' $100 bill with the $50, $20, $10, $5, and $1 on their way!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 07:54
TED @canadiandollar>(@canadiandollar):
For all you futures fans: The Canadian Dollar is a screamin buy @ 72.55..
Fair-value with U.S. buck is approx. .80...and it will go higher than that!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 07:51
TED @front>(@front):
Front:Did ya have to remind me of my tax bill in the states!!! Multiply it by 1.38 and yer talkin BIG BUCKS...Vermont has the Rainbow Coalition Party run by Jessie Jackson...retch...puke...Worse than NDP...if possible.....

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 07:12
Front @upandatum>(@upandatum):


Sorry lad, but if you're that willing to give him up, maybe we'd better look this horse in the mouth once more. Politics aside, it is because of our socialist feelings that we're not willing to give up our health care system. It takes care of us and prevents us ( thank God ) from having to earn so much as to affort a private system. Can you imagine how much we'd have to earn to pay TED's taxes on a 72 cent dollar ! In reality though, without us liberals making a living and giving Ceasar his due, then the socialists ( here known as the New Democrats Party NDP ) would not have the money to spend on their luxuries. I really don't think WW wants to come here. The dollars too low and has a Queens picture on it ( rather than a president ) , ( :- ) and the Quebec problem just keeps festering. ( :- ( OH BTW .... WW don't forget to leave your guns at home ! We're too civilized to need them here they say. Now where's my shells?


Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 06:53
telecaster @two-tier currency>(@two-tier currency):
Does anyone know anything about a bill before congress in the US that would create a two-tier currency, a domestic dollar and a trade dollar? Today is the first I have heard of this and I'm skeptical of its' truth. thanks

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 05:40
cherokee @owner-of-the-ether>(@owner-of-the-ether):
while flux rests, cherokee rides the crest, of the ether
wave to aasgard, and all points north. to own, all alone,
the grand spectrum of the net, one should hesitate to let
sleep in. the great outflow of energy quickens, and the days
are shorter, each in its' own turn. you feel and sense it, yet
your mind tells you it cannot be so. it is so. there is a
quickening of the events unfolding around all organic beings.
awaken and feel the truth, as your mind cannot reveal it!
the answer is within, just tune in and open the door.

when the student is ready the teacher will appear.

nobody ever knows as much as you think they know!!!

use your own mind, make your own decisions about everything!

shoot from the hip, aim for their lip!!

cherokee---scalper of the copper bulls.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 05:35
telecaster @Euro>(@Euro):
FrenchMan- Can you give us an idea what a socialist victory in France and a revaluation of German gold reserves would mean for the currencies and interest rates over on your side? Your viewpoint would be appreciated. thanks

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 04:18
cherokee @local-constabulary>(@local-constabulary):

we have consensus--

they will take you, and we will let you go!

well there it is.-------how about a free one way ticket, and
two bits for coffee? canada NEEDS your fiduciary skills with their
robust, recovering economy.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 04:14
Auric @home>(@home):

FrenchMan: Thanks for the info. I am sure we will
all be watching.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 03:08
French elections : I'm French and the elections began one hour ago at
8:00 am ( 2:00 am in New York Time ) .The desks will be closed at 8:00 pm and
the first results will also be published at 8:00 pm.
A last poll published yesterday always gave the majority to the left
wing ( Socialist Party,Communist Party and Ecologists ) .

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 03:06
Poster 2323 @euro>(@euro):

Ron ( 00:18 ) : If Euro 99 fails, the dollar will probably
stay at present level or go higher. Believe the whole
situation is fabricated to increase German Exports. In
any event, gold will go up 'as the dollar is suspect and
the Swiss have been knocked out of the equation by the
Fonze and I think that they prefer it that way. Think
about it.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 02:53
telecaster @>(@):
Auric- Thanks for the info. Can't find anything yet on the French elections.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 02:14
Immigration Canada WW your accepted>(WW your accepted):

WW: We hereby accept your application for immigration to

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 02:00
Auric @home>(@home):

Telecaster: The back pages of The Economist
Magazine has those. Sorry I can't be of help for a
web site. Yes, things do seem to be heating up in
Europe. Any news on the French election?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 01:55
telecaster @money supply>(@money supply):
Does anyone know where I can find figues for money supply growth in the G7 economies? Things are really beginning to heat up in regard to EMU, gold, and the currencies. I think it is pretty clear that interest rates have bottomed in Japan. If the Kohl government succeeds in their plan to get a payout based on a revaluation of gold reserves, does anyone have an opinion what the effect will be on currencies and interest rates in Europe? Thanks.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 01:43
Paul: I didn't chide you for your churlish behaviour. I poked fun at it. There is difference. Forgive me for not taking you seriously. It must have had something to do with your choice of words and the quality of your discourse. A first rate mind argues without emotion. A third rate mind cannot argue without it. Try to chase the idea and not the person. I know it is difficult but concentration and practice help.

BTW, my wife is really irritated and she is more bloodthirsty than me. She does not take kindly to usurpers of her terms of endearment.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 01:24
Paul see previous>(see previous):
Earl....You chide me for using an expletive and then condone mass murder.
This is the mentality I am talking about. Your attitude and others like it
cause people to use drugs. Good night a--hole.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 01:14
Cherokee: Go in peace my brother. Send some smoke, I am thinking of the ggggggrains again. There I said it. ... MUst crank in suitable calibrated pucker factor into selected expletive. Will remain in heavy wooden chair until your return from the great beyond.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 01:05
Oh! And Paul. Keep buying that gold.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 01:02
Paul: I do not take umbrage at your choice of personal characterization. But my wife will. She is partial to the term and reserves it for her personal use only. Now you can mess with me and escape with your choice of expletive intact but the same cannot be said for my wife.

As for death and destruction. It seems that the drug trade is doing a fair job of killing these sterling members of society without our help. The problem is two fold as I see it. The rate of attritioncould stand some improvement and the casualty loss experienced by the rest of society, before they die is far too high. Burglaries, theft, robberies that result in innocent loss of life and etc.

As for summary execution; I did not say that they should not be given a fair trial. Even a 'straight forward' trial procedure such as Paula Jones vs William J. Clinton would be acceptable. All I am saying is that, at the final stroke of the gavel, the misunderstood creature is dispatched forthwith. Nah! He or she is shot.

While in China, I was told that they manufacture a special cartridge for that purpose. But the family of the honored recipient is required pay for it. For the indigent here, I suppose it would be appropriate to set up a trust fund of some sort to cover the cost.

I am only troubled by the fact that the drug lords are able to reach into the highest offices in the country and would remain out of range, so to speak, of that most excellent Chinese cartridge. More is the pity. I'm sure you will agree that reducing the sales base through zero recidivism would, in time, cut into the drug lords market, the politicians take, release productive assets to other uses, increase the average IQ and make life noticeable more pleasant for the rest of us. Laudable goals all. Don't you think?...... Give it some thought. While sitting on your choice of expetives.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 00:57
cherokee @physics-101>(@physics-101):
that is determined by the mass of the object, not by un-educated


for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

there is all you need to know. humans have a sacrosanct view of
themselves relative to the cosmos, and her vagaries. i guess you
believe that the recent SOLar flare will have no discernable effect upon earth either.

you are wrong, and time will prove it so.

flux and chaos love emf ( electro-magnetic-flux ) , as plants
love the sun and rain.


my lance has been removed from cheek, and stands ready to defend
your STANDARD! your ideals are credible and supported by all at
this reservation. continue with your journey of the mind, the
ankle-biters are easily crushed underfoot from whence they came.


yes, you can spell my name better than me. how about.....well maybe later
----apo for the typos'---!

sleepwalkers love to speak of things of which they have heard, and have
not experienced. the experienced ( are you experienced?--jimi hendrix ) love
to watch the sleepwalkers sleep-talk, as they cannot walk the walk.

the bow is drawn, the arrow at the ready,---swoosh---thwock---
the deed is done. another sleepwalker feels the sting of
reality. giants abound, yet mike has found, he knows more than they.
einsteins' laws of relativity have been proven time and time again.
sleepwalkers know only what they learn from sleeping. NOT TO BURY THE
DEAD PAST, AND TRUST THE FUTURE! food a-plenty for all who refuse
to open their eyes.

cherokee----en-route to ganymede for a soiree with don carlos and
the psycho-tropic spirits of times gone past. back in a

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 00:56
Savage !>(!):
GENERAL: My apologies for mentioning your name at a most inopportune time. Please excuse my thoughtlessness. I didn't think about it 'til I saw the next post.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 00:37
WW @New England>(@New England):
Selby : earlier today I was calling 800 numbers regarding rates and reservations in southern Ontario. Being the political junky I am I could not resist asking the operators about your health care system. They were y cordial and seemed quite willing to talk and very supportive of your health care system. Now our countries are similar but if anybody suggested the Canadian system here they would be labeled a Marxian Socialist. Sorry but I dont consider Canada a socialist country. What do you think gives. Here you a conservative support a system that American Conservatives would by definition refer to as Socialist. How do you explain the discrepancy or can it be explained.

The Greek restaurant section sounds great I look forward to visiting. Thanks!

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 00:34
Auric @Cursed?>(@Cursed?):

Har! Just had an experience. Was reading posts
here when my house shook, like it does from thunder,
and the electricity went out. Came back on in 2
minutes. No thunderstorms here though. As I recall
the Mexico City volcano occurred within about 2
hours after someone asked Cherokee to send a little
flux his way. ( I think it was M. Graves ) . Reminds
me of the Twilight Zone episode, where this printing
press would cause whatever was printed on it to
actually occur. I believe the episode title was
Printers Devil, with Burgess Meredith starring.
You don't think that Bart........Nah.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 00:28
Selby TO>(TO):
BART: I understand that 1 of the options is to function here as on the Stock channel. Is that corrrect?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 00:26
Selby Toronto>(Toronto):
WW If you like Greek food there is a 8-10 block Greek section on Danforth with great Greek food in a couple of dozen restaurants. I have heard it said that all Canadian political parties are to the left of the US Democrats. Not sure if that is true but there are 13 Communist Party members running in Mondays Fereal election and I bet they are way left of the Democrats.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 00:19
Earl...I was afraid you were serious. What I am really afraid of is that many
people think like you. That is why I buy gold. To be ready to escape the
unthinking, inhumane assholes that propagate thoughts of mass murder. I am not
an expert but it seems the people who are attracted to drugs are the weaker
members of society trying to escape from real or imagined demons. I am truly more
afraid of people with your attitudes than the druggies. If they do something we don't
like and they don't stop, we'll just kill them. This attitude has produced
the grassroots of nazi-ism that is embedding itself in our country. Do you realize
how easy it is for a youngster to get hooked on drugs with the potentcy of
today's varieties? Should we kill the kids because they made a mistake and
can't readily correct it? Earl, I really think you're kidding.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 00:18
Ron Bundesbank Wants Euro Delay>(Bundesbank Wants Euro Delay):

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 00:15
WW @New England>(@New England):
Selby: Thanks for the info. I remember Leechee Garden as I have NEVER had Chinese food that great anywhere since. I cant believe it is still going as at the time it seemed like a kind of hole in the wall. Glad to hear Ed's is going strong that was also a great restaurant. I dont think many Americans not close to the border realize what fantastic theater and restaurant town Toronto is. On a par with NY SF and LA/ probably better than the latter two in theater. Safer and cleaner than all three put together.

You as a conservative supporting Canada's Heallth Care plan Vs. our system would make you a Canadian Conservative a US Liberal if you lived here.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 00:14
Selby Toronto>(Toronto):
WW: I think you mean the Queen's Plate which will be run in a few months. You didn't say when you were here last so it's hard to guess what might be new. You could try the restaurant at the top of the CN Tower. There is a new restaurant section for several blocks along Queen West--Thai-Mexican-Cajan-French. Gretsky's and Planet Hollywood are near the Skydome. Great new zoo if you are bringing kids--about 2 days to take it all in.

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 00:05
Naoko ....>(....):


am I a bear or a bull ? my teacher told me I am Japanese ?

Date: Sun Jun 01 1997 00:01
Selby Toronto>(Toronto):
WW: Ed has about 3 restaurants and 2-3 theaters near the Sky Dome and LeeChee Gardens is still in operation. O'Keefe Center has been renamed but still there. Ontario place has been spruced up and you should try to see the IMAX theater next door.

I don't think any Canadians would trade the National Health care system for the US variety. One of the great fears of most taxpayers is that the Health system will be reduced to that of the US or even worse a private system be allowed to function as well. Not likely. The system is overbuilt and filled with waste or was until recently with 6000 hospital beds being shut down in Toronto in the last 6-7 years and 11 hospitals scheduled to be shut down in the next 2-3 years to account for the 6000 empty beds. Very prosperous place to afford such waste for so long.

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